WEBVTT - From the Vault: In the Name of Osiris

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 2>And I am Joe McCormick, and it is Saturday, so

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<v Speaker 2>we are heading down into the vault for an older

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<v Speaker 2>episode of the show. This one originally published on April ninth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four, and it's called In the Name of Osiris.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it was a follow up of our series

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<v Speaker 2>on Osiris.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right. This one, I believe, mostly revolves around things

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<v Speaker 1>in the scientific realm that are just named after Osiris

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<v Speaker 1>but are still fun to talk about.

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<v Speaker 3>Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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<v Speaker 1>name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. Last week

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<v Speaker 1>on the show, we did a two parter about the

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<v Speaker 1>ancient Egyptian underworld fertility god Osiris, and today's episode is

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a spin off of that. Well, I think

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to have more fun if you go into

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<v Speaker 1>this episode with some familiarity regarding the mythology in question.

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<v Speaker 1>So I would say, if you have a choice in

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<v Speaker 1>the matter, yeah, go back and listen to the two

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<v Speaker 1>previous episodes about Osiris the God and surrounding mythology. Go

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<v Speaker 1>ahead and listen to those, but it's also not completely necessary.

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<v Speaker 1>The basic gist here is okay, Osiris is a mythological

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<v Speaker 1>figure who continues to resonate with people around the world,

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<v Speaker 1>and even his name has this kind of regal mystery

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<v Speaker 1>to many of us. Just to say the name allowed Osiris,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, it kind of summons a certain amount of

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<v Speaker 1>mystery and I don't know, strangeness and power into the

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<v Speaker 1>room with you. And scientists are far from immune to

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<v Speaker 1>such charms. So we have various things in the scientific

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<v Speaker 1>and technological world that are named after him. In some

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<v Speaker 1>cases we're talking about highly tortured acronyms. Other times there

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be, you know, even less connection. So we're

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<v Speaker 1>not going to touch on everything in the scientific and

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<v Speaker 1>technological world that is named after Osiris. There are some

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<v Speaker 1>things we're not going to get into, like there is

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<v Speaker 1>an exoplanet that is nicknamed Osirius, not officially named Osiris.

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<v Speaker 1>But we are going to talk about two things in particular.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's an opportunity to chat about some very

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<v Speaker 1>deserving science in the name of Osiris, as you know,

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<v Speaker 1>as well as some scientific tidbits that we might not

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<v Speaker 1>otherwise have discussed.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, So, first up, I wanted to talk about a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of aspects of Osiris REX, which was the name

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<v Speaker 2>of an asteroid sample return mission operated by NASA, as

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<v Speaker 2>well as the original name of its associated spacecraft, but

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<v Speaker 2>it has since been resurrected with a new identity. It

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<v Speaker 2>has now been reborn as Osiris APEX. I'll explain that

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<v Speaker 2>in a minute.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that sounds really cool too, and I mean, if

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<v Speaker 1>nothing else, this is just an awesome name for a

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<v Speaker 1>space mission.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm trying to discern the mythological significance of going

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<v Speaker 2>from Rex to APEX. I guess that would be like

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<v Speaker 2>going from Osiris the King to Osiris the Peak.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what Apex means. I think in either a case,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean it is fitting to name things in space

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<v Speaker 1>or sent into space after Osiris, given the ancient Egyptians

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<v Speaker 1>fascination with the stars.

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<v Speaker 2>Fair enough, So I'll start with just a very short

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<v Speaker 2>rough sketch of the mission history and then come back

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<v Speaker 2>and talk about a couple of aspects of it. So

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<v Speaker 2>Osiris REX launched in September twenty sixteen, and in twenty

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<v Speaker 2>eighteen successfully achieved a deep space rendezvous with its target,

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<v Speaker 2>an asteroid called one oh one nine five five Binu

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<v Speaker 2>b NNU. The spacecraft spent roughly two years after that

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<v Speaker 2>orbiting Binu, mapping its surface, doing analysis of the asteroid

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<v Speaker 2>from orbit, and trying to select an ideal landing zone,

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<v Speaker 2>which proved a bit more difficult than had originally been anticipated.

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<v Speaker 2>In October of twenty twenty, o Cyrus Rex managed to

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<v Speaker 2>touch down on the surface of Binu and collect a

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<v Speaker 2>sample of its regolith. The regolith is the rocky outer

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<v Speaker 2>soil covering the object. But it was not like a

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<v Speaker 2>full landing where it sat down and chilled for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a touch and ghost sampling operation, so it

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<v Speaker 2>touched down, it sort of poked the asteroid with a

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<v Speaker 2>mechanism called its sampling arm, so it had kind of

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<v Speaker 2>a leg or a limb that came out below it

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<v Speaker 2>that poked down into the asteroid's regolith, did a blast

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<v Speaker 2>of nitrogen gas to try to stir up some of

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<v Speaker 2>the soil, captured a bunch of it, and then blasted

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<v Speaker 2>right back.

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<v Speaker 1>Off its kind of like a mosquito.

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<v Speaker 2>Didn't land for as long as a mosquito, though, it

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<v Speaker 2>was more like if a mosquito just had to kind

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<v Speaker 2>of like jab you and then retreat. Gotcha, like if

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<v Speaker 2>a mosquito would fly down, poke you hit your blood

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<v Speaker 2>vessels under the skin with a blast of nitrogen gas,

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<v Speaker 2>cause a little sort of explosion of blood, and then

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<v Speaker 2>just suck up a bunch of that as it is

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<v Speaker 2>bouncing back off of your skin. But anyway, the sampling

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<v Speaker 2>was successful. It got a significant amount of the material

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<v Speaker 2>from Binu, and then it lifted off and returned to Earth,

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<v Speaker 2>which and so the spacecraft didn't fully return to Earth,

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<v Speaker 2>but it had a capsule that was for the sample return,

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<v Speaker 2>which touched down on Earth. I think it landed in

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<v Speaker 2>Utah in September twenty twenty three, and the asteroid soil

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<v Speaker 2>sample was intact and it was ready to be studied.

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<v Speaker 2>So that is something we now have in the possession

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<v Speaker 2>of Earth scientists who have already gotten to work analyzing

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<v Speaker 2>it and doing science on the basis of it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a pretty impressive technological achievement, you know, not

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<v Speaker 1>even just all the details of just making sure everything

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<v Speaker 1>lines up just ride here.

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<v Speaker 2>In many ways, I mean, there are a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>things that are hard about doing a mission like this,

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<v Speaker 2>So of course there is, just there are the navigational

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<v Speaker 2>challenges of trying to intersect with a small, fast moving

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<v Speaker 2>object in space, like an asteroid. There is once you

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<v Speaker 2>get there, the selection of the landing zone, this difficult

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<v Speaker 2>touch and go maneuver, to try to capture a piece

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<v Speaker 2>of the asteroid some soil from it without contaminating it,

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<v Speaker 2>to get that safely back to Earth on intact and uncontaminated.

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<v Speaker 2>And then also things people might not even think of.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, when the spacecraft and the probe were conducting

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<v Speaker 2>their operations on the asteroid surface, that's not something that

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<v Speaker 2>like a human pilot can operate in real time with

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<v Speaker 2>a joystick because it's so far away. There's a significant

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<v Speaker 2>travel time for information back and forth between mission control

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<v Speaker 2>here on Earth and the probe. So essentially these these

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<v Speaker 2>maneuvers had to be pre programmed so that the probe

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<v Speaker 2>could carry them out on its own, because there wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>be enough real time exchange of information for like a

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<v Speaker 2>human pilot to see what's happening in the moment and adjust.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to like make sure you've programmed it correctly

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<v Speaker 2>in advance, and it can do what it needs to

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<v Speaker 2>do without you being able to intervene. But anyway, after

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<v Speaker 2>the successful conclusion of the Osiris Rex mission, the spacecraft

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<v Speaker 2>was given a new mission and a new name to

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<v Speaker 2>rendezvous with and study the asteroid nine nine nine four

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<v Speaker 2>two Apofice, and, in keeping with its new role, the

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<v Speaker 2>new name Osiris APEX. So, as you previewed a minute ago,

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<v Speaker 2>rob Osirius Rex is an acronym. It's one of these

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<v Speaker 2>kind of I always wonder how these things exactly come

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<v Speaker 2>together when, like, you know, you select all the things

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<v Speaker 2>and they're supposed to stand for what it actually does,

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<v Speaker 2>but then it makes a word that already exists, and

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, that didn't happen by accident? Who organizes the

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<v Speaker 2>acronym formation process?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know. Yeah, it's like it's one of these

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<v Speaker 1>situations where you sort of you get in within spitting

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<v Speaker 1>distance of a really cool word, and then you start

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<v Speaker 1>turning the screws to get it a little closer, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>because you're not hitting Osiris rex, you know, first try

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<v Speaker 1>with no manipulation.

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<v Speaker 2>Certainly not so it's not without it being an Osiris miracle.

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<v Speaker 2>But okay, So it stands for origins, spectral interpretation, resource identification,

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<v Speaker 2>and security regalith Explorer, So those parts of the name

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<v Speaker 2>are basically a summary of what Osiris Rex was meant

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<v Speaker 2>to study or what types of questions it was meant

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<v Speaker 2>to help illuminate. So, for example, origins refers to the

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<v Speaker 2>fact that the target of the mission is what has

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes been called a time capsule. Asteroid. Binu was selected

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<v Speaker 2>because it is thought to be a pristine four point

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<v Speaker 2>five million year old, carbon rich asteroid that has been

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<v Speaker 2>preserved in essentially the same condition since the Solar System

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<v Speaker 2>was formed. So by looking at what it's made of,

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<v Speaker 2>we can learn more about the early days of the

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<v Speaker 2>Solar System and learn about the initial distribution of things

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<v Speaker 2>of various minerals and organic compounds and things like that.

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<v Speaker 2>It'll help teach us more about how the Solar System

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<v Speaker 2>was formed and give us points of comparison between it

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<v Speaker 2>and other objects in the Solar System that have been

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<v Speaker 2>changed more over time. And so the spectral interpretation part

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<v Speaker 2>this refers to the use of spectral analysis and astronomy

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<v Speaker 2>looking at patterns of light colors reflected off of an

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<v Speaker 2>object to determine its composition. The respectral analysis of Binu,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, and there is spectral analysis of asteroids, even

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<v Speaker 2>just from scopic observatories to try to determine their composition,

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<v Speaker 2>so it would help illuminate those questions as well. There

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<v Speaker 2>is a resource identification in the name that's understanding the

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<v Speaker 2>chemical and geological makeup of a carbon rich asteroid. The

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<v Speaker 2>security in the name is an interesting thing, you might think, Wait,

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<v Speaker 2>what is this referred to security? Well, that refers to

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<v Speaker 2>security for the whole of Earth, because it turns out,

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<v Speaker 2>of all the asteroids we know about today, Binu is

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<v Speaker 2>one of the most potentially dangerous to our planet. Binu

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<v Speaker 2>passes near to Earth about once every six years, and

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<v Speaker 2>scientists have calculated that in the year twenty one eighty two,

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<v Speaker 2>its path will bring it close enough that there is

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<v Speaker 2>about a one in twenty seven hundred chance of a

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<v Speaker 2>collision on that pass. So you can get some relief

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<v Speaker 2>from the relentless like asteroid bound for Earth headlines in

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<v Speaker 2>that when it comes to the larger known space objects

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<v Speaker 2>and the most troubling ones won't get close to us

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time, and even when they do, based

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<v Speaker 2>on what we know today, the chances of a direct

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<v Speaker 2>hit are like one in several thousand at worst. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>how bad would it be. If Binu did hit Earth,

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<v Speaker 2>it would be not as bad as some impacts in

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<v Speaker 2>Earth's history, but it would be quite bad. Benu is

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<v Speaker 2>about half a kilometer wide with a mass of about

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven million metric tons, so it would probably not

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<v Speaker 2>be large enough to cause worldwide calamity. It wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>like the you know, the object associated with the death

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<v Speaker 2>of the non avian dinosaurs. It would not be like

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<v Speaker 2>the KPg extinction object, but it would It would be bad.

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<v Speaker 2>It would be extremely locally destructive depending on where and

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<v Speaker 2>how it hit. So part of the mission was also

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<v Speaker 2>focused on studying the forces acting on the trajectory of

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<v Speaker 2>asteroids so we can better predict their course over time,

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<v Speaker 2>because probably the thing we need to best understand in

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<v Speaker 2>order to defend Earth from dangerous near earth objects is

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<v Speaker 2>a very accurate prediction system for the future movements of

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<v Speaker 2>space objects. Right now, we can predict with pretty good accuracy,

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<v Speaker 2>but over time that accuracy degrades. Right, so the farther

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<v Speaker 2>out into the future you're looking, the harder it is

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<v Speaker 2>to predict how close something is going to be. And specifically,

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<v Speaker 2>the Osiris REX mission was looking at the influence of

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<v Speaker 2>something called the Yarkovsky effect, and to do a short

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<v Speaker 2>summary of that, when an asteroid is flying through space

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<v Speaker 2>and rotating. This is specifically for a rotating object, its

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<v Speaker 2>surface goes through patterns of heating and cooling depending on

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<v Speaker 2>which side is facing the Sun. So as one side

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<v Speaker 2>of the asteroid faces the Sun, it gets star baked

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<v Speaker 2>and it heats up, and then as the asteroid rotates,

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<v Speaker 2>the hot side turns away from the Sun and cools,

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<v Speaker 2>and that cooling means the asteroid is radiating infrared photons

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<v Speaker 2>into space. This radiation actually provides its own small amount

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<v Speaker 2>of thrust, so as it's radiating that heat off into space,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a bit of a push created there, and the

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<v Speaker 2>effect is fairly small, but for relatively small objects and

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<v Speaker 2>affecting the path over large periods of time, it can

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<v Speaker 2>make a big difference. This does affect the asteroid's path

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<v Speaker 2>through space, which makes it harder to predict the orbit

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<v Speaker 2>of a rotating asteroid farther into the future, and that's

0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.200
<v Speaker 2>something that we need to be able to do if

0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 2>we want to identify threatening near earth objects and protect

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.440
<v Speaker 2>Earth by potentially pushing them off course.

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.280
<v Speaker 1>Right right, which to your point is essential with objects

0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:55.240
<v Speaker 1>that we already know are going to get maybe a

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.960
<v Speaker 1>little too close for comfort. Anyway, we need a note

0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:02.880
<v Speaker 1>like to what degree these estimates can be off? You know, exactly,

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.000
<v Speaker 1>how how much sway there is in the movement of

0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.400
<v Speaker 1>one of these asteroids in our predictions exactly.

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.959
<v Speaker 2>And then finally, so that's the Osiris part of the name.

0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.240
<v Speaker 2>That finally there's the REX part that stands for Regolith Explorer,

0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 2>and this is the sample return aspect of the mission.

0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>So Osiris REX was the first successful US mission to

0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.760
<v Speaker 2>return a sample from an asteroid. That was not the

0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:30.840
<v Speaker 2>first such mission worldwide. Actually, the first successful asteroid sample

0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:34.400
<v Speaker 2>return was carried out by the Japanese Space Agency. That

0:14:34.560 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>was the Hyabusa probe, which got a sample of small

0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 2>dust grains from an asteroid called twenty five one three

0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.560
<v Speaker 2>Itokawa and return to the material to Earth in twenty ten.

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Though Osiris REX is not just a duplicate of that

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.400
<v Speaker 2>mission because it targeted a different type of asteroid, and

0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.560
<v Speaker 2>also Binu was able to get a lot more just

0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 2>mass of material returned to Earth for us to work on.

0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Now here's something about the naming of this asteroid that

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.280
<v Speaker 2>is kind of backwards, of which is kind of the

0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:10.120
<v Speaker 2>opposite of what you might expect. The asteroid Binu got

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.560
<v Speaker 2>its name by association with the Osiris REX mission, so

0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 2>it was originally called nineteen ninety nine RQ thirty six,

0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.320
<v Speaker 2>but in advance of the mission in twenty thirteen, the

0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Planetary Society held a competition to name the asteroid, and

0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.120
<v Speaker 2>a kid from North Carolina who is nine years old

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 2>at the time named Mike Pusio came up with the

0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 2>idea of naming it Binu, which was the name of

0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 2>a pre existing deity from Egyptian mythology, an animal formed

0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 2>god often depicted as a long legged bird, though there's

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.000
<v Speaker 2>some dispute over which natural bird, if any, it's supposed

0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.800
<v Speaker 2>to correspond to. I'll talk about that a bit more

0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>in a minute. But Pusio apparently picked the name for

0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:01.760
<v Speaker 2>the asteroid because of the Osiris RECX probes resemblance to

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 2>a long legged bird and rob if you look, I

0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.920
<v Speaker 2>attached an image of the spacecraft here for you to

0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.640
<v Speaker 2>have a gander at. I can see this here, so

0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.360
<v Speaker 2>the solar panel flaps are very much like wings.

0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, excellent. You know, I got to hand it

0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 1>to this nine year old. This is a great space

0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 1>nerd and a great mythology nerd, two great nerdoms for anyone,

0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:28.600
<v Speaker 1>especially this at this age.

0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Now we're getting a little off track of the mission here,

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 2>but I actually got interested in the concept of Binu itself,

0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.160
<v Speaker 2>and the context of this episode is the Egyptian mythology.

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:41.680
<v Speaker 2>So I wanted to follow this tunnel under the pyramids

0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:45.520
<v Speaker 2>for a moment. So Binu, you can if you're looking

0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:48.400
<v Speaker 2>this up. It's sometimes as the god's name is spelled

0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Binu with two ends or Banu with one n so

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.360
<v Speaker 2>b in U. Sometimes the asteroid is with two ends.

0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:00.080
<v Speaker 2>It is a figure associated with the creation of the

0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>world and with the creator Sun God. And for what

0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:07.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm about to discuss. My main sources Geraldine Pinch's Handbook

0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:12.359
<v Speaker 2>of Egyptian Mythology. So, according to Pinch, in some Egyptian myths,

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:17.200
<v Speaker 2>Binu is said to be the oldest creature living during

0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.359
<v Speaker 2>the creation of the world, when a hill of dry

0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.199
<v Speaker 2>land was first raised out of the darkness, out of

0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:27.359
<v Speaker 2>the waters of chaos, the Binu bird landed on this earth.

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:30.879
<v Speaker 2>So it was the first living animal, and its cry

0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>was the first sound. The moment of its cry marked

0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 2>the first moment of time, and the cry of the

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>Binu bird will also sound again at the end of

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.080
<v Speaker 2>the world to mark the time when all order will

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.639
<v Speaker 2>again descend into chaos. The Binu bird seems to have

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 2>been related to, or possibly the inspiration for, the Greek

0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.280
<v Speaker 2>myth of the phoenix. In the Egyptian context, there was

0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.760
<v Speaker 2>a binu bird that was believed to dwell in Heliopolis,

0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.480
<v Speaker 2>and kings would pray to the bird for the renewal

0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.000
<v Speaker 2>of strength after they had been in power for thirty years.

0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:09.560
<v Speaker 2>And here I just want to read a section from

0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:12.960
<v Speaker 2>Pinch on the connection between the Binu bird and Osiris

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:16.720
<v Speaker 2>as well as another major god from the pantheon. Quote,

0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:20.840
<v Speaker 2>both Ray and Osiris could be identified with the Binu bird,

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>an expression of the secret knowledge that these two gods

0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:29.679
<v Speaker 2>were one. As a manifestation of Osiris, the Binu bird

0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.560
<v Speaker 2>led the spirits of the dead through the dangers of

0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 2>the underworld. Some spells in the Book of the Dead

0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:40.800
<v Speaker 2>aim to assist the dead to transform themselves into Binu

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:44.720
<v Speaker 2>birds so that they can travel freely between worlds.

0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:48.080
<v Speaker 1>All right, so a kind of psycho bomb.

0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Here, Yeah, I think it's interesting that you would get

0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.480
<v Speaker 2>both that so the binu could be a creature that's

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:57.879
<v Speaker 2>sort of a guide because remember in you know, there

0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.880
<v Speaker 2>are different visions of the Egyptian and afterlife. But in

0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 2>some views of this, you know, it's an adventure. It's

0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:06.760
<v Speaker 2>like a journey that you have to go through and

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 2>face obstacles along the way. And there is also there's

0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.879
<v Speaker 2>the famous judgment, the weighing of the heart against the

0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.040
<v Speaker 2>feather of mott. But there are also, you know, the

0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:19.400
<v Speaker 2>these trials you must go through, like facing facing dangers

0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:22.440
<v Speaker 2>throughout the landscape of the dead, and the Binu bird

0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.680
<v Speaker 2>here apparently apparently could be a guide in that process.

0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.240
<v Speaker 2>But you could also, if you knew the right spells,

0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:32.200
<v Speaker 2>just turn into a binu bird, which seems even better.

0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:35.600
<v Speaker 2>Now coming back to whether this bird has a counterpart

0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.159
<v Speaker 2>in nature, Early texts describing the binu bird seem to

0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>be talking about a yellow wagtail, which is a small

0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.200
<v Speaker 2>bird that eats insects and tends to seek out wet,

0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.639
<v Speaker 2>open countries such as marshland. However, Pinch notes that in

0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:55.320
<v Speaker 2>later art the binu bird is depicted somewhat differently as

0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:59.600
<v Speaker 2>a huge heron, and this is why you'll see pictures

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.800
<v Speaker 2>of a hair and often if you google Binu, this

0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.680
<v Speaker 2>is I think more New Kingdom art. And I found

0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.159
<v Speaker 2>a photo of some of this art for you to

0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.200
<v Speaker 2>look at here rob and the outline here Binu is

0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 2>a heron that would have been taller than a human

0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:15.080
<v Speaker 2>with its neck outstretched, so a very big heron, and

0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.879
<v Speaker 2>extant herons can get quite large. The still living Goliath

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.720
<v Speaker 2>heron or Ardia goliath can reach a height of about

0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.760
<v Speaker 2>five feet or roughly one hundred and fifty centimeters. But

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:32.320
<v Speaker 2>apparently there was an extinct giant heron that grew even larger,

0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:38.120
<v Speaker 2>known today as the Binu heron or Ardia binuids, bones

0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:41.439
<v Speaker 2>of which have been found from the Arabian Peninsula dating

0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.919
<v Speaker 2>back to the third millennium BCE. So this is a

0:20:45.040 --> 0:20:48.520
<v Speaker 2>giant heron that would have been alive during human history

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.480
<v Speaker 2>here and so this isn't known, but it has been

0:20:52.640 --> 0:20:56.840
<v Speaker 2>speculated that this bird could have inspired the iconography of

0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.520
<v Speaker 2>Binu and thus also perhaps the story of the Fetes.

0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Fascinating now, how much larger was this like a twenty

0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:09.200
<v Speaker 2>foot tall heron? No, it is bigger than any living heron,

0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:11.680
<v Speaker 2>but not by a huge amount. I think it would

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.960
<v Speaker 2>have been roughly maybe six feet tall, still a big bird.

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, absolutely, I mean it just there any kind of

0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:20.879
<v Speaker 1>heron species you encounter in the wild, it's it's kind

0:21:20.920 --> 0:21:25.480
<v Speaker 1>of a breathtaking and magical experience and imagining like the

0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:31.080
<v Speaker 1>largest of herons here, this extinct species. This would have

0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:41.359
<v Speaker 1>been quite an impressive side.

0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 2>Now, before we move on from Osiris Rex, there is

0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:47.920
<v Speaker 2>one interesting thing I wanted to talk about from the

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 2>sampling portion of the mission. Apparently this asteroid had some

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.040
<v Speaker 2>surprises waiting for us when we got there. So I

0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.800
<v Speaker 2>mentioned already that the sampling mechanism how work to get

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 2>some of the regulith from the surface of this asteroid.

0:22:04.520 --> 0:22:07.480
<v Speaker 2>It did not involve a permanent landing, so you didn't

0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:09.679
<v Speaker 2>have to worry about that. It was a touch and

0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.840
<v Speaker 2>go operation, so you would descend, you would poke the

0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:17.640
<v Speaker 2>surface with the sampling arm, issue a blast of nitrogen gas,

0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:20.600
<v Speaker 2>scoop up a bunch of what was stirred up, and

0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 2>then blast off and retreat immediately. But despite this, once

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:30.400
<v Speaker 2>we actually reached the asteroid, it proved a lot trickier

0:22:30.560 --> 0:22:33.520
<v Speaker 2>of an object to touch down on than was initially

0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.919
<v Speaker 2>expected because it had been thought that the surface of

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Binu would be relatively smooth, or at least have large

0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:44.600
<v Speaker 2>smooth patches. I think the asteroid that had been targeted

0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:49.240
<v Speaker 2>by the Japanese Hyabusa probe had more kind of beachy areas,

0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:52.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, with like smooth, fine grained areas where you

0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.719
<v Speaker 2>know you could select a good landing zone. But for

0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.439
<v Speaker 2>some reason, Binu was when we got there, more of

0:22:58.480 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 2>a sort of a hell of bl It was a

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.040
<v Speaker 2>very rocky, bouldery surface, more uneven than expected. So the

0:23:06.080 --> 0:23:09.439
<v Speaker 2>team had to very carefully map out the surface to

0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:12.639
<v Speaker 2>select an ideal landing spot, and there were not many.

0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:16.399
<v Speaker 2>They ended up selecting a place that was known as

0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:20.679
<v Speaker 2>the Nightingale Crater. But then there was another surprise waiting

0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:24.560
<v Speaker 2>when they actually went to initiate the touchdown and sample

0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:30.040
<v Speaker 2>retrieval moment. So the craft was descending and it poked

0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:34.919
<v Speaker 2>the asteroid, and then the sampling arm sank. It sank

0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.119
<v Speaker 2>into the surface. I've seen this described as like poking

0:23:38.160 --> 0:23:41.240
<v Speaker 2>into a swamp. Now, of course, it's not actually that

0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:46.360
<v Speaker 2>there was liquid water on the surface of Benu. Instead,

0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:51.040
<v Speaker 2>it's just that the soil covering its surface was a

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 2>lower density than expected, so the sampling arm just kind

0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:59.000
<v Speaker 2>of plunged in. I want to read a quote here

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.040
<v Speaker 2>from a space Died Calm article by Teresa Pultova talking

0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 2>about this moment.

0:24:04.520 --> 0:24:04.920
<v Speaker 1>Quote.

0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:08.840
<v Speaker 2>The descent was smooth, but when Osiris wrex's sample collection

0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:13.840
<v Speaker 2>device pressed into the asteroid surface, something unexpected happened. Contrary

0:24:13.920 --> 0:24:18.040
<v Speaker 2>to expectations, the surface behaved almost like a swamp. Within

0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:22.040
<v Speaker 2>a few seconds, the spacecraft sank nineteen inches or fifty

0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:26.639
<v Speaker 2>centimeters deep into Binu. As the sample collection had sucked

0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.639
<v Speaker 2>in the sample and the spacecraft's backaway thrusters fired, a

0:24:30.800 --> 0:24:35.080
<v Speaker 2>huge wall of debris rose from the crater, engulfing the

0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:39.919
<v Speaker 2>ascending spacecraft and Rob I've attached some pictures for you

0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:42.320
<v Speaker 2>to look at here because there's sort of like an

0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:46.880
<v Speaker 2>animation you can look up of this of the spacecraft's

0:24:46.880 --> 0:24:52.120
<v Speaker 2>camera had a camera facing directly down along the axis

0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:55.440
<v Speaker 2>of the sampling arm, so you're looking down as it's

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:58.480
<v Speaker 2>descending towards the surface, and you can just see when

0:24:58.480 --> 0:25:01.800
<v Speaker 2>it touches suddenly it goes and then there's this explosion

0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.040
<v Speaker 2>and there's just stuff all over the place, and then

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:07.960
<v Speaker 2>it zooms back out and you can see like before

0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.120
<v Speaker 2>and after images of the crater where it touched down,

0:25:12.240 --> 0:25:15.280
<v Speaker 2>where like major rocks and boulders are moved all over

0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:18.239
<v Speaker 2>the place. It just seems like this is you know,

0:25:18.440 --> 0:25:22.880
<v Speaker 2>it reminds you that asteroids, especially smaller asteroids like this,

0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:28.640
<v Speaker 2>are not necessarily not necessarily solid objects. That it might

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.120
<v Speaker 2>be better to think of something like Binu not as

0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:34.320
<v Speaker 2>like a solid hunk of rock in space, but like

0:25:34.400 --> 0:25:38.920
<v Speaker 2>a big pile of rubble that's loosely bound together by gravity.

0:25:39.560 --> 0:25:43.560
<v Speaker 1>Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean even in our descriptions of

0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:45.600
<v Speaker 1>like the size of these things, we compare them to

0:25:45.640 --> 0:25:48.919
<v Speaker 1>things like skyscrapers, you know, or how big they are

0:25:48.920 --> 0:25:51.200
<v Speaker 1>in comparison to a car, So we tend to get

0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 1>these kind of solid ideas in our mind. Yeah, towards

0:25:54.320 --> 0:25:56.720
<v Speaker 1>to your point, it's more like a big ball of

0:25:57.600 --> 0:25:59.159
<v Speaker 1>accumulated space rubble.

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:01.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. But despite the fact that it was a hell

0:26:01.720 --> 0:26:04.920
<v Speaker 2>of boulders and sort of a dry swamp of sadness,

0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:08.840
<v Speaker 2>the mission was a success. We got plenty of material

0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:11.960
<v Speaker 2>from the surface. I think the initial goal was to

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:14.240
<v Speaker 2>get at least sixty grams and they got well over

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:17.880
<v Speaker 2>That's plenty of material to study. And now the spacecraft

0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:22.720
<v Speaker 2>is being repurposed. It is slated to enter the orbit

0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:27.280
<v Speaker 2>of the asteroid Apofas in twenty twenty nine. Apophus, by

0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>the way, another Egyptian mythology tie in.

0:26:30.400 --> 0:26:32.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is the great serpent, I believe right.

0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:37.480
<v Speaker 2>It's a monster god figure associated with chaos and destruction,

0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:39.840
<v Speaker 2>kind of reptilian in nature.

0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Pinch describes it. It's sometimes depicted more like

0:26:44.160 --> 0:26:46.480
<v Speaker 1>a crocodile, but more frequently as a great serpent, and

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:49.440
<v Speaker 1>it is like it is one of, if not the

0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:54.800
<v Speaker 1>most important chaos monster of Egyptian mythology.

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:00.719
<v Speaker 2>But interesting thing to study because Apofus was previous thought

0:27:01.160 --> 0:27:05.879
<v Speaker 2>to be an asteroid that may in fact threaten Earth,

0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:10.800
<v Speaker 2>but because of the unpredictability of its orbit, when later

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:13.400
<v Speaker 2>we got more precision about its trajectory, it was sort

0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:15.679
<v Speaker 2>of ruled out. So for a while people were thinking, oh,

0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:18.960
<v Speaker 2>this one might really be a candidate for danger, but

0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:22.480
<v Speaker 2>actually now it's it's nothing to worry about, but still

0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:23.280
<v Speaker 2>worth study.

0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah. And the more we understand how these things

0:27:27.080 --> 0:27:30.400
<v Speaker 1>move and what impacts their course, the more we can

0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.199
<v Speaker 1>protect ourselves, and the more the more information we have

0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:39.080
<v Speaker 1>moving forward. Thus, again the security aspect of the Osiris

0:27:39.119 --> 0:27:43.919
<v Speaker 1>rex that we just described earlier. That's Osyrus Rex in

0:27:43.960 --> 0:27:46.800
<v Speaker 1>all caps except for the X, because again it is

0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:51.440
<v Speaker 1>a regular explorer at the end. All right, Well, from there,

0:27:51.520 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 1>the next logical place to go is of course to

0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:58.040
<v Speaker 1>talk about bees, perfect and in general. You know, this

0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:00.600
<v Speaker 1>is a fine area of connection for a nigition god

0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:06.680
<v Speaker 1>because the ancient Egyptians were particularly connected with the honey bee.

0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:09.720
<v Speaker 1>As biologist, author and former guests on the show Jeene

0:28:09.760 --> 0:28:12.720
<v Speaker 1>Kritsky points out in his excellent twenty fifteen book The

0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Tears of Ray, the honey bee was a pervasive cultural

0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:19.680
<v Speaker 1>motif in ancient Egypt, in large part because of their

0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:24.800
<v Speaker 1>perceived connection to the sun god Ray or Raw, whose

0:28:24.960 --> 0:28:28.200
<v Speaker 1>very tears were said to be honeybees. And on top

0:28:28.240 --> 0:28:30.920
<v Speaker 1>of this, honey and other bee products like wax were

0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:35.120
<v Speaker 1>prized and used for a variety of medicinal, culinary, religious,

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:40.360
<v Speaker 1>and economic purposes. So again that's the god Ray or Ra.

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 1>And you know, as we already alluded to in this episode,

0:28:43.800 --> 0:28:46.920
<v Speaker 1>there are connections between Ray and Raw and of Cyrus.

0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:50.680
<v Speaker 1>But you may be wondering, okay, are there any specific

0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:54.840
<v Speaker 1>be connections to Cyrus. So I have Kritsky's book on

0:28:54.880 --> 0:28:56.480
<v Speaker 1>the shelf here, so I picked it up, and I

0:28:56.480 --> 0:28:59.280
<v Speaker 1>consulted it once more to see what he had to

0:28:59.280 --> 0:29:02.600
<v Speaker 1>say specific about Osiris. So I'm going to run through

0:29:02.640 --> 0:29:05.800
<v Speaker 1>just a few examples here. The book includes an image

0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:11.160
<v Speaker 1>from the Tomb of Usarat depicting the offering of honeycomb

0:29:11.400 --> 0:29:15.400
<v Speaker 1>to Osiris. So this is Theban Tomb t. T. Fifty

0:29:15.440 --> 0:29:19.280
<v Speaker 1>six in the Theban Necropolis near Luxor New Kingdom period.

0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:23.000
<v Speaker 1>I believe he also has an example He mentions the

0:29:23.000 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>tomb of Minmos, which includes the passage Osiris bee keeper

0:29:28.640 --> 0:29:33.760
<v Speaker 1>of Aman, bearer of incense, minmost justified, possessor of honor

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.719
<v Speaker 1>before the Great God, and this is from the eighteenth

0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:41.560
<v Speaker 1>or nineteenth dynasty, I believe indirectly. The Salt eight twenty

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:45.560
<v Speaker 1>five Papyrus includes a spell that involves using bees wax

0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 1>figures to quote kill the name of Seth, in this

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:54.240
<v Speaker 1>case used against Seth. But such figurines made out of wax,

0:29:54.280 --> 0:29:59.040
<v Speaker 1>which rarely survived, were seemingly burnt in spells against mundane

0:29:59.120 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 1>enemies as well. You could use them against great cosmic

0:30:02.280 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 1>entities like Seth, but you could also use them just

0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:10.760
<v Speaker 1>a guess, against your actual real world enemies. Okay and

0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:14.200
<v Speaker 1>Kritzky also includes some other mentions to support the idea

0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:18.240
<v Speaker 1>that honey or honeycomb. In particular, these were often used

0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:23.000
<v Speaker 1>in temple rituals concerning gods, including the god of Cyrus.

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:26.120
<v Speaker 1>So are we going to talk about honey bees now? No,

0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.160
<v Speaker 1>We're in fact going to talk about a genus of

0:30:29.240 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 1>bee found only in Central and South America, so completely

0:30:33.560 --> 0:30:37.920
<v Speaker 1>removed from ancient Egyptian culture, but still named after Osiris.

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:44.800
<v Speaker 1>So the genus Osiris is classified under the Osserini tribe,

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:48.680
<v Speaker 1>which in turn is classified under the family Apidae, which

0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.480
<v Speaker 1>itself contains well over five thousand species of bees. So

0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:54.400
<v Speaker 1>I looked at a few different bee manuals on this.

0:30:54.480 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 1>Ultimately we're dealing with some bees here that are not

0:30:57.040 --> 0:30:58.760
<v Speaker 1>as well researched, and we'll get into some of the

0:30:58.800 --> 0:31:03.920
<v Speaker 1>research the reasons for that. But as Charles Duncan Mitchner,

0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:06.960
<v Speaker 1>this guy was one of the leading experts on bees

0:31:07.000 --> 0:31:10.520
<v Speaker 1>who have nineteen eighteen through twenty fifteen. He describes them

0:31:10.600 --> 0:31:13.200
<v Speaker 1>in The Bees of the World, Volume one from two

0:31:13.240 --> 0:31:18.760
<v Speaker 1>thousand as klecto parasites. They seem to have likely evolved

0:31:18.800 --> 0:31:26.240
<v Speaker 1>independently of nobindet klepto parasitic bees and this is based

0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:29.280
<v Speaker 1>on various features that they have that are also found

0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:33.080
<v Speaker 1>in non parasitic bees, which are absent in other examples

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:37.120
<v Speaker 1>of klepto parasitic bees. He points out that Osiris bees

0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:41.840
<v Speaker 1>have relatively thin, but smooth and shiny skins, you know,

0:31:42.200 --> 0:31:46.280
<v Speaker 1>kind of like smooth, shiny exoskeletons, and no protective spines.

0:31:46.920 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 1>But they do have an enormous sting, and this will

0:31:50.560 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 1>We'll come back to some of the reasons for this

0:31:52.800 --> 0:31:56.560
<v Speaker 1>as we proceed here, but he writes that quote, parasites

0:31:56.600 --> 0:32:00.719
<v Speaker 1>commonly have stronger stings than their non parasitic relatives. There

0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:03.600
<v Speaker 1>are exceptions to that rule, but by and large you'll

0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:07.880
<v Speaker 1>find that they put far more evolutionary energy is put

0:32:07.960 --> 0:32:11.800
<v Speaker 1>into these kind of like offensive slash defensive weapons.

0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 2>I already have some thoughts about why that might be,

0:32:14.640 --> 0:32:16.240
<v Speaker 2>but I bet you'll illuminate me.

0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:19.440
<v Speaker 1>So the whole gist of klepto parasites, as we've discussed

0:32:19.480 --> 0:32:21.600
<v Speaker 1>on the show before, comes down to the laying of

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:24.920
<v Speaker 1>one species eggs in the nest of another species. And

0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:27.480
<v Speaker 1>the classic of that example of this from the world

0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.640
<v Speaker 1>of birds is of course the cuckoo bird. And here

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:34.720
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about so called cuckoo bees. This is more

0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:38.320
<v Speaker 1>specifically known as brood parasitism. Another source I was looking

0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:40.600
<v Speaker 1>at for this is a really nice write up on

0:32:40.680 --> 0:32:46.640
<v Speaker 1>the topic on the website Entomology Today by Meredith sweet Walker,

0:32:47.280 --> 0:32:52.720
<v Speaker 1>and it's interesting. As a former avian endocrinologist, she seems

0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 1>especially well positioned to compare cuckoo birds to cuckoo bees.

0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:01.080
<v Speaker 1>She points out that cuckoo bees are actually more generally

0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:04.120
<v Speaker 1>as a social parasites as well, because they generally have

0:33:04.200 --> 0:33:07.080
<v Speaker 1>to infiltrate or in some cases anyway we'll get into

0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:09.920
<v Speaker 1>the details here. In many cases we're talking about bees

0:33:09.920 --> 0:33:12.880
<v Speaker 1>that have to infiltrate an entire use social hive structure

0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:16.360
<v Speaker 1>or nest structure in order to deposit their eggs. So

0:33:16.400 --> 0:33:19.400
<v Speaker 1>they can't simply like sneak in, dump their egg and

0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:21.040
<v Speaker 1>run and be like he he, Now you have to

0:33:21.120 --> 0:33:23.960
<v Speaker 1>raise my young. There's a lot more involved here.

0:33:24.000 --> 0:33:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Like they actually have to blend in with the hive.

0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.840
<v Speaker 1>Right, And I don't want to discredit the complexity of

0:33:29.960 --> 0:33:33.240
<v Speaker 1>cuckoo birds. As we've talked about on the show before,

0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:37.520
<v Speaker 1>there's kind of like a mafia esque situation involved there

0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:40.480
<v Speaker 1>as well, with additional so it's not just dump and

0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.720
<v Speaker 1>run with cuckoo birds either. But the world of bees

0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:46.160
<v Speaker 1>is different from the world of birds. So she points

0:33:46.160 --> 0:33:49.880
<v Speaker 1>out that in some species of bumblebee, we see and

0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:52.400
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about non parasitic bumble bees here, we do

0:33:52.440 --> 0:33:57.200
<v Speaker 1>see examples of nest usurpation, in which one queen bust

0:33:57.240 --> 0:34:00.240
<v Speaker 1>into the nest of another queen of her same spec

0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 1>kills that queen and takes over the brood. So this

0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:08.359
<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to happen, It doesn't always happen, It only

0:34:08.400 --> 0:34:12.239
<v Speaker 1>occurs under certain ecological conditions. You could probably compare this

0:34:12.719 --> 0:34:16.279
<v Speaker 1>broadly to things like cannibalism, where you know, you have

0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:19.719
<v Speaker 1>species that are not obligate cannibals by any stretch, but

0:34:20.120 --> 0:34:22.640
<v Speaker 1>if conditions are right, they will engage in that behavior.

0:34:22.960 --> 0:34:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Right, Obligate cannibalism is impossible, yeah, but you can have

0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:31.520
<v Speaker 2>an adaptation that where a certain type of animal is

0:34:31.640 --> 0:34:35.720
<v Speaker 2>more inclined to resort to cannibalism if conditions are dire

0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:36.919
<v Speaker 2>right right.

0:34:37.520 --> 0:34:41.399
<v Speaker 1>So here with brood parasitism, we do, on the other hand,

0:34:41.480 --> 0:34:46.640
<v Speaker 1>have true kleptoparasite bees that are obligate brood parasites. They

0:34:46.640 --> 0:34:50.960
<v Speaker 1>have evolved to depend on the practice absolutely otherwise they

0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:54.320
<v Speaker 1>can't reproduce at all, and obviously all of their efforts

0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:57.600
<v Speaker 1>have to be aimed on another bee species. So that's

0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:00.319
<v Speaker 1>sort of the origin story of how we can get

0:35:00.320 --> 0:35:03.840
<v Speaker 1>to this area where we have obligate brood parasitic bees.

0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:08.080
<v Speaker 1>So cuckoo bumblebees, she points out, can't produce their own workers.

0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:11.640
<v Speaker 1>They lack pollen baskets on their legs. This prevents them

0:35:11.680 --> 0:35:14.920
<v Speaker 1>from feeding their own offspring, and they also can't produce

0:35:15.040 --> 0:35:18.600
<v Speaker 1>enough wax to build their own nests. So without those adaptations,

0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:20.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, that kind of frees you up from like

0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:26.319
<v Speaker 1>a evolutionary energy standpoint, where do they focus that extra energy?

0:35:26.360 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Will they focus it into the blunt offensive power needed

0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:36.239
<v Speaker 1>to conquer another brood? So we're talking busting in, overpowering

0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:40.960
<v Speaker 1>other workers, if workers are present, killing the rival queen,

0:35:41.640 --> 0:35:44.400
<v Speaker 1>and then taking over the nest. And what do you

0:35:44.440 --> 0:35:46.560
<v Speaker 1>need to carry this out? Well, in many cases you

0:35:46.640 --> 0:35:50.839
<v Speaker 1>need heavier armor to protect yourself, more powerful mandibles, and

0:35:51.239 --> 0:35:54.120
<v Speaker 1>key to what we just said earlier, an enhanced stinger.

0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:58.880
<v Speaker 1>But she stresses that target selection is also key here

0:35:58.920 --> 0:36:01.600
<v Speaker 1>because if they go after the if a cuckoo bumblebee

0:36:01.600 --> 0:36:04.719
<v Speaker 1>goes after a nest that's too large. The workers are

0:36:04.719 --> 0:36:07.240
<v Speaker 1>just going to overpower her and kill her in self defense.

0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:10.319
<v Speaker 1>And if the nest is too small, while she may

0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:12.200
<v Speaker 1>conquer it, then there won't have there won't be enough

0:36:12.200 --> 0:36:15.600
<v Speaker 1>of a work force to serve her need. So it's

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:20.640
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of a delicate balance interesting, but ultimately the

0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:24.080
<v Speaker 1>battle and the regicide here is only the first phase,

0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:27.480
<v Speaker 1>because afterwards the conqueror has to be able to quickly

0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:30.759
<v Speaker 1>de escalate things and convince the colony that she's the

0:36:30.840 --> 0:36:34.880
<v Speaker 1>rightful queen and that work can continue mostly as before.

0:36:35.280 --> 0:36:36.920
<v Speaker 1>And I guess you can. You know, you can easily

0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:41.200
<v Speaker 1>answer morphize here and compare this to you know, examples

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.920
<v Speaker 1>from like military history, like Okay, you're going to conquer

0:36:43.920 --> 0:36:46.279
<v Speaker 1>a kingdom, but now what are you going to rule it?

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:47.960
<v Speaker 1>And what do you have to do in order to

0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:48.600
<v Speaker 1>pull that off?

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:51.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I guess there's some persuasion involved there.

0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:54.719
<v Speaker 1>Right, And so in the world of bees, scent is

0:36:54.760 --> 0:37:00.960
<v Speaker 1>absolutely key with the interloper, the invader, the kleptoparis, depending

0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:04.839
<v Speaker 1>largely on one of two strategies depending on species. So

0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:09.240
<v Speaker 1>one strategy is simply scent acquisition. So the cuckoo bees

0:37:09.360 --> 0:37:12.440
<v Speaker 1>bumblebees that use this method, they don't have much of

0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:15.040
<v Speaker 1>a scent on their own. They're kind of like scent neutral,

0:37:15.200 --> 0:37:18.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, stealth scent, I guess, And they just simply

0:37:18.800 --> 0:37:22.759
<v Speaker 1>acquire the scent of the nest they've invaded via contact

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:25.160
<v Speaker 1>with workers and various nest materials.

0:37:25.680 --> 0:37:28.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so there's stuff lying around that smells, right, you

0:37:28.600 --> 0:37:30.799
<v Speaker 2>can just kind of like rub yourself on all that

0:37:30.880 --> 0:37:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and it'll be good enough.

0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Right. But the more advanced method here is actual scent mimicry.

0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:38.719
<v Speaker 1>And this is a case where the cuckoo bumblebees in

0:37:38.800 --> 0:37:42.480
<v Speaker 1>question actively mimic the chemical cues of the host species.

0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I wonder what is the mechanism for doing that,

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.879
<v Speaker 2>being able to like sample a smell and then recreate

0:37:48.920 --> 0:37:49.640
<v Speaker 2>it yourself.

0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:52.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, or you know, they have evolved over time to

0:37:53.239 --> 0:37:56.000
<v Speaker 1>prey on particular you know, a particular species or a

0:37:56.000 --> 0:38:00.440
<v Speaker 1>particular suite of species. I'm guessing here, So yeah, it's

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:03.120
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting, like in one case, either just simply acquiring

0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:07.840
<v Speaker 1>the necessary sense to command the new environment, or you

0:38:08.320 --> 0:38:11.080
<v Speaker 1>have evolved over time to be able to mimic the

0:38:11.120 --> 0:38:16.080
<v Speaker 1>necessary chemical cues in either case, it is it's fascinating

0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:20.120
<v Speaker 1>manipulation of a use social environment.

0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.840
<v Speaker 1>Now, Walker strusts that there's much that's not known about

0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:39.600
<v Speaker 1>how these bees function. They're they're pretty understudied. For instance,

0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:42.920
<v Speaker 1>it's assumed that workers continue to raise the alien larvae

0:38:43.400 --> 0:38:47.240
<v Speaker 1>because at this point their resistance to outsiders in general

0:38:47.280 --> 0:38:49.200
<v Speaker 1>has been lowered. But we just don't know for sure.

0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:52.839
<v Speaker 1>And I feel like we might have touched on this

0:38:52.880 --> 0:38:56.560
<v Speaker 1>before regarding parasites in general. But she points out that

0:38:56.560 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 1>one of the reasons that brood parasites parasite bees are

0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 1>under studied in general is that we easily fall into

0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:07.000
<v Speaker 1>making a kind of moral judgment about parasites, and so

0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:10.160
<v Speaker 1>you often see people who study bees tending to gravitate

0:39:10.239 --> 0:39:13.879
<v Speaker 1>towards non parasitic species, even thinking of them as quote

0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:18.680
<v Speaker 1>unquote true bees, you know, sort of siding with the complex,

0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:21.800
<v Speaker 1>uh sort of you know, use social civilization builders, and

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:24.480
<v Speaker 1>you don't want to side with the the invaders, that

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:27.120
<v Speaker 1>the thieves and the tyrants. Uh huh.

0:39:27.200 --> 0:39:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'd go out on a limb and say, these

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:30.239
<v Speaker 2>bees don't know any better.

0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there's I mean, really even I mean, that's the

0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:37.520
<v Speaker 1>thing about the about even a use social uh you

0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:42.040
<v Speaker 1>know bee hive situation. Uh, there's no good or evil there,

0:39:42.120 --> 0:39:44.719
<v Speaker 1>there is just there is just life. There is just

0:39:44.840 --> 0:39:50.120
<v Speaker 1>the uh uh, the will of the hive. But uh, anyway,

0:39:50.120 --> 0:39:52.560
<v Speaker 1>getting back to Osirius bees, and again with a huge

0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:54.560
<v Speaker 1>caveat that there's a lot we don't know, and that

0:39:54.840 --> 0:39:59.160
<v Speaker 1>in general parasitic bees are understudied and Osirius bees as well.

0:40:00.200 --> 0:40:03.080
<v Speaker 1>So Osirius bees are not bumblebees. So a lot of

0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:06.400
<v Speaker 1>what I just said is not going to actually apply

0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:10.120
<v Speaker 1>to what we're talking about here. So these bees are

0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:13.640
<v Speaker 1>more wasp like in appearance. I included a picture of

0:40:13.760 --> 0:40:16.080
<v Speaker 1>one individual for you to look at below here Joe,

0:40:16.120 --> 0:40:18.239
<v Speaker 1>But anyone else out there, you can easily do a

0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Google image serch and there various entomology profile pages with images.

0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:30.239
<v Speaker 1>They're they're generally pale, sometimes almost yellow or green, and

0:40:30.280 --> 0:40:34.280
<v Speaker 1>according to Sam Droge and Lawrence Packer in the book Bees,

0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:37.680
<v Speaker 1>an up close look at pollinators around the world, most

0:40:37.680 --> 0:40:41.400
<v Speaker 1>of the time when an entomologist names something after a

0:40:41.440 --> 0:40:43.759
<v Speaker 1>god from any mythology, they're basically just sort of showing

0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.400
<v Speaker 1>off their knowledge of mythology, you know, just saying like

0:40:46.600 --> 0:40:50.960
<v Speaker 1>you probably shouldn't read too much into the invocation of

0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:54.080
<v Speaker 1>any god, much less Osirus in this case, but they

0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:57.520
<v Speaker 1>do point out that the invocation of Osiris is perhaps

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:02.040
<v Speaker 1>kind of on point here given the colorization, because again,

0:41:02.080 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 1>remember the green skin of Osiris, and with Osiris bees

0:41:05.960 --> 0:41:09.280
<v Speaker 1>the skin is also reportedly often kind of this pale

0:41:09.480 --> 0:41:12.600
<v Speaker 1>green or pale yellowish green color. I don't know that

0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:15.719
<v Speaker 1>that's particularly present in the image that I included here

0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:19.160
<v Speaker 1>for you, Joe, but still I will value the.

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.759
<v Speaker 2>Connection here fair enough. I don't think I've ever seen

0:41:21.760 --> 0:41:24.480
<v Speaker 2>a green looking bee. I'd like to see that now.

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:28.359
<v Speaker 1>As we mentioned earlier, these Osiris bees also pack very

0:41:28.440 --> 0:41:32.000
<v Speaker 1>large stingers, so I think that the species number I've

0:41:32.000 --> 0:41:35.120
<v Speaker 1>seen for Osiris bees is something like thirty two, perhaps

0:41:35.120 --> 0:41:38.319
<v Speaker 1>more than that, but not by a tremendous amount, and

0:41:38.640 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 1>is mentioned already and is cited as well in Lawrence

0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Packer's Bees of the World. Yeah, they have these oversized stingers,

0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:48.680
<v Speaker 1>but they also don't have the extra armor associated with

0:41:48.840 --> 0:41:52.800
<v Speaker 1>various cuckoo bumble bees, so they're actually rather slim and smooth,

0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:57.360
<v Speaker 1>so they're not just complete tanks. We might think of

0:41:57.400 --> 0:42:01.359
<v Speaker 1>them a little differently, almost more like a sleek assassin

0:42:01.440 --> 0:42:04.839
<v Speaker 1>with an oversized weapon. Okay, And indeed, that's that's how

0:42:04.880 --> 0:42:08.160
<v Speaker 1>Packer kind of describes them. It's kind of an egg

0:42:08.200 --> 0:42:14.600
<v Speaker 1>assassin or queen assassin. So they have the greatly oversized

0:42:14.600 --> 0:42:18.160
<v Speaker 1>stinger that's curved, and even the abdomen harnessing the stinger

0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:21.480
<v Speaker 1>is elongated, so it gives them extra reach. So you

0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:24.279
<v Speaker 1>can kind of think of like a swordsman using a

0:42:24.360 --> 0:42:26.680
<v Speaker 1>rape year, you know, how they're able to lunge in

0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:30.560
<v Speaker 1>and close the distance a lot more effectively. And he

0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:33.080
<v Speaker 1>says that that quote there is evidence that the sting

0:42:33.160 --> 0:42:35.880
<v Speaker 1>is used to kill the host egg. And in the

0:42:35.920 --> 0:42:39.440
<v Speaker 1>book by Packer and Droge, they also point out that

0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:42.600
<v Speaker 1>the adaptation could be primarily for dealing with the main

0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:46.600
<v Speaker 1>nest document. They also stress, quote, almost nothing is known

0:42:46.640 --> 0:42:50.480
<v Speaker 1>about the makeup of these nest parasites. But it's my understanding,

0:42:50.480 --> 0:42:53.440
<v Speaker 1>based on the context of these descriptions and some details

0:42:53.440 --> 0:42:57.480
<v Speaker 1>about the bees that they seem to target, that these

0:42:57.480 --> 0:43:00.319
<v Speaker 1>are not large hives or nests that they're going after,

0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:03.960
<v Speaker 1>but rather they're going after solitary ground nesting.

0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Bees here, oh okay.

0:43:05.960 --> 0:43:08.879
<v Speaker 1>And thus they don't apparently have to protect themselves from

0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:12.000
<v Speaker 1>a whole bunch of workers. It's not this full blown,

0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:15.520
<v Speaker 1>you know, battle tank invasion like we see in some

0:43:15.560 --> 0:43:19.040
<v Speaker 1>of these cuckoo bumblebees. Instead, it's like, get in there,

0:43:19.200 --> 0:43:21.960
<v Speaker 1>do what you got to do. Stab an egg that's

0:43:22.000 --> 0:43:25.200
<v Speaker 1>already there, kill the the the queen if she is

0:43:25.239 --> 0:43:28.479
<v Speaker 1>already there and she messes with you. But but that's

0:43:28.480 --> 0:43:29.239
<v Speaker 1>the extent.

0:43:28.960 --> 0:43:31.600
<v Speaker 2>Of it, the infiltrator model.

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:36.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So again with this case, not a lot of

0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:41.239
<v Speaker 1>connective tissue between Osiris the god and the thing named

0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:43.640
<v Speaker 1>after Osiris. But you know, now that we've talked about

0:43:43.640 --> 0:43:48.480
<v Speaker 1>both Osiris Rex and Osiris Bees, I do see like

0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 1>some sort of loose similarities here. Like we talked about

0:43:51.640 --> 0:43:55.000
<v Speaker 1>how the god Osiris is the opener of the way.

0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:59.080
<v Speaker 1>You know, he's the he goes somewhere in a sense

0:43:59.080 --> 0:44:03.080
<v Speaker 1>that has never been visited before. He makes it possible

0:44:03.080 --> 0:44:06.520
<v Speaker 1>for others to go there as well, you know, brings

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:11.399
<v Speaker 1>knowledge or you know, it is one that journeys. And

0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:14.840
<v Speaker 1>certainly with Osiris Rex, this lines up with some of this.

0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.239
<v Speaker 1>You know, goes to a place that we have not

0:44:17.360 --> 0:44:20.600
<v Speaker 1>explored before, makes certain things possible in the future that

0:44:20.640 --> 0:44:23.360
<v Speaker 1>are even protective in nature. And I don't know. With

0:44:23.400 --> 0:44:26.600
<v Speaker 1>the Osiris bees. You know, it's a little more if

0:44:26.600 --> 0:44:31.279
<v Speaker 1>we're to again anthropomorphized recklessly, kind of sinister. But these

0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:35.640
<v Speaker 1>are bees that open away that venture somewhere else and

0:44:35.800 --> 0:44:39.440
<v Speaker 1>make life possible in a way that it wasn't possible

0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:42.640
<v Speaker 1>before there, at least for this for their species.

0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:44.880
<v Speaker 2>I thought you were going to make the connection between

0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 2>the Osiris bees and Osiris rex because of the stinger

0:44:48.800 --> 0:44:49.879
<v Speaker 2>and the sampling arm.

0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:51.759
<v Speaker 1>There you go. I think there's a connection to be

0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:56.520
<v Speaker 1>made there, long stinger, long sampling arm. And we were

0:44:56.560 --> 0:44:59.239
<v Speaker 1>comparing mosquitos earlier. But you know, we get into some

0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:02.560
<v Speaker 1>of the particulars here, and we're often talking about repurposed

0:45:02.560 --> 0:45:07.520
<v Speaker 1>ovipositors and so forth. So yeah, I think that's valid

0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.200
<v Speaker 1>as well. All right, well, we're going to go ahead

0:45:10.239 --> 0:45:12.319
<v Speaker 1>and close the book here again. There you'll find some

0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:16.879
<v Speaker 1>other things named after Osiris. There are some exoplanets, some asteroids,

0:45:16.880 --> 0:45:22.480
<v Speaker 1>some individual craters that are named after Osiris. But I

0:45:22.520 --> 0:45:26.279
<v Speaker 1>feel like these were the most compelling examples to draw

0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:28.560
<v Speaker 1>on for this episode. But if you disagree, if you

0:45:28.600 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 1>have a particular favorite Osiris, or if you in your

0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:35.200
<v Speaker 1>line of work or some line of work you're familiar with,

0:45:35.520 --> 0:45:40.440
<v Speaker 1>there is another acronym involving or invoking of Cyrus or

0:45:40.520 --> 0:45:44.560
<v Speaker 1>any other interesting Egyptian mythological figure, write in we would

0:45:44.600 --> 0:45:47.360
<v Speaker 1>love to hear about it. Just a reminder that Stuff

0:45:47.400 --> 0:45:50.080
<v Speaker 1>to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast,

0:45:50.160 --> 0:45:53.880
<v Speaker 1>with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we

0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:56.360
<v Speaker 1>do listener mail, On Wednesdays we do a short form episode,

0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:58.719
<v Speaker 1>and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

0:45:58.840 --> 0:46:01.640
<v Speaker 1>just talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

0:46:02.040 --> 0:46:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

0:46:06.239 --> 0:46:07.920
<v Speaker 2>If you would like to get in touch with us

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:10.520
<v Speaker 2>with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

0:46:10.520 --> 0:46:12.560
<v Speaker 2>a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

0:46:12.680 --> 0:46:15.520
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0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:24.040
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0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:27.040
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