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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Did eleven year old Audrey Cunningham ever have a chance?

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Speaker 2: Her mother is now posting heart wrenching messages about how

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Speaker 2: she quote failed her daughter.

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Speaker 3: The father had her.

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Speaker 2: Living in his home with his grandparents, and in the

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Speaker 2: backyard is a Nazi Aaryan brother covered in hate tattoos,

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Speaker 2: who would take her to school alone in the car.

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Speaker 4: With him with a sex offense.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, we learned that this eleven year

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Speaker 2: old little girl.

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Speaker 3: Do any of you have little girls or.

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Speaker 2: Little boys that are or were eleven years old? This

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Speaker 2: little girl's body was weighted down with a rock tied

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Speaker 2: by rope to her body.

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Speaker 4: Who could do that to.

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Speaker 3: An eleven year old little girl?

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Speaker 4: I mean, take a look at this guy.

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Speaker 2: Would you leave your child alone with him, much less

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Speaker 2: put her in the car with him, give him access

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Speaker 2: to your home with your child asleep in the bed

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Speaker 2: around him.

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Speaker 3: I mean, think about it.

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Speaker 2: One of his last offenses on his rap sheet. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: he got a sweet plea deal, didn't have to register

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Speaker 2: as a sex offender.

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Speaker 4: And walked free over an over and over and over

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Speaker 4: and over. But this time he had access to a home.

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Speaker 2: And was caught in the bed with a minor child,

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Speaker 2: a girl, and had taken off her underwear and PJ bottoms.

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Speaker 2: Now he has access to Audrey, and now Audrey is

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Speaker 2: dead at the bottom of a river, weighted down by

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Speaker 2: a rock.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, Texas.

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Speaker 2: It's on you. You have the DP death penalty needle.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna use it?

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Speaker 4: Are you gonna let him.

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Speaker 3: Somehow slip out of this too?

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Speaker 2: Because all of his other crimes, most of them were

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Speaker 2: in Texas, and he walked, He skipped out of the

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Speaker 2: courthouse free as a bird.

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Speaker 4: He ran hopscotched.

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Speaker 2: Out of the jail each time. And now Audrey is dead,

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Speaker 2: I mean, is he Greace? This is crime Stories. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for being with us here stories and on serious

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Speaker 2: sex sem one eleven. Wow, what we have learned overnight

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Speaker 2: by taking a long hard look at a formal affidavit

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Speaker 2: used as an arrest warrant. Wait till they perform those searches,

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Speaker 2: but right now joining me in addition to an all

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Speaker 2: star panel to make sense of the evidence as we

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Speaker 2: know it. Right now, this lady is a hero, the

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Speaker 2: lady that called police when she spotted that's Nazi Arian

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Speaker 2: brother sex perv who I believe murdered an eleven year

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Speaker 2: old girl, Audrey. I believe he raped her, and I

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Speaker 2: believe he weighted her body down with a rock that

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Speaker 2: threw her body in the river. Joining me right now

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Speaker 2: is Leslie Gaskins. She is an ex Une employee and

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Speaker 2: she's the one that called nine one.

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Speaker 3: And landed his rear in behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Of course, then he started lying and lying and lying,

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Speaker 2: but despite his lies, police managed to find Audrey's body.

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Speaker 2: Leslie Gaskins, thank you for being with.

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Speaker 5: Us, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: Les Gaskins.

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Speaker 2: This, ma'am, tell me what happened when you see the

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Speaker 2: defendant covered in all his tattoos. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you could see his swastika or not, But tell me

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Speaker 2: what happened when he came into your exion.

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Speaker 5: So it was just a few dollars in change for gas,

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Speaker 5: it could have been a couple of beers on my

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Speaker 5: real sure, because I didn't know that he was significant,

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Speaker 5: that he was so ugly. I keep saying that he's

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Speaker 5: just so ugly and so creepy looking that you just

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Speaker 5: don't forget his face, and it just I don't know,

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Speaker 5: his face just stuck with me. And then the next

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Speaker 5: day when I saw his mug shot and they said

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Speaker 5: to call if you had seen him. I called right there,

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Speaker 5: didn't even hesitate.

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Speaker 2: What when he came into your ex son? Are you

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Speaker 2: saying that it was either for gas or beer?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yes, Sam, And I'm.

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Speaker 4: Curious, hello, let me get right in him. What time

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Speaker 4: of the day did he come in?

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Speaker 5: It was after nine o'clock I believe, I'm.

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Speaker 4: Not real sure, nine am, nine pm.

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Speaker 5: Im. I am, my work today shift that day?

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Speaker 4: Question?

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Speaker 2: Was this on February fifteen, the day Audrey went missing?

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Speaker 5: Yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am, I work today shift

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Speaker 5: that day.

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Speaker 4: What time do you go in?

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Speaker 5: I go in at five fifteen in the morning.

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Speaker 2: So you're their first thing in the morning. Now, February fifteen,

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Speaker 2: I believe was a Thursday, correct, yes, ma'am. So you're

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Speaker 2: there at five am, five fifteen. You get everything opened

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Speaker 2: up and ready.

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Speaker 4: What were you doing?

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Speaker 3: Were you behind the counter when he came in?

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Speaker 5: Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 7: There was a line of people and he was just

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Speaker 7: in the middle of the line.

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Speaker 4: Did he smell of alcohol or anything else?

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Speaker 3: Pots? Cigarettes?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 7: No, I didn't notice, and he wasn't dirty like they said.

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Speaker 5: When he got went to the mechanic shop. He wasn't

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Speaker 5: dirty and all that either.

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Speaker 4: So this is nine a m.

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Speaker 2: Trying to place him that time in the line of

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Speaker 2: events that we have so far.

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Speaker 3: Do you recall what he was wearing.

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Speaker 5: I don't. I don't.

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Speaker 3: What about him stands out to you?

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Speaker 5: His face, his fear, his eyes. He has like a

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Speaker 5: crazy eye.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, does one look one way and one look the

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Speaker 4: other way?

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Speaker 5: It kind of does just them.

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Speaker 2: I've tried to figure that out because in some pictures

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Speaker 2: they look like they're both looking at you, and in

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Speaker 2: others one looks like it's looking off.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think he's kind of was kind of

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Speaker 5: a regular here. I think I've seen him in here before.

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Speaker 4: What's your recollection?

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Speaker 7: Because I remember his eyes.

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Speaker 4: The eyes, Yeah, the first time I saw his eyes.

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Speaker 2: They're very light and blue and they're piercing and there's

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Speaker 2: just something off.

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Speaker 4: Now. Could you see all of his tattoos?

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Speaker 7: No, ma'am, I don't think I could. I think I

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Speaker 7: could see the like a little bit around his neck.

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Speaker 7: I think he had a T shirt on. He didn't

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Speaker 7: have a tank top.

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Speaker 4: Did you my chance see his hands?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but I really didn't pay that much attention, darn.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering if there were any scratches on his body,

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Speaker 2: on his neck, his chest, his arms, his hands.

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Speaker 4: He did he have on.

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Speaker 3: A long sleeve shirt?

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Speaker 8: No?

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Speaker 5: I don't think so.

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Speaker 4: Did he say anything to your recollection ever.

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Speaker 7: He was getting You know, it's four thirty three in gases?

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Speaker 7: Keep sticking in my head, okay, so or thirty three

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Speaker 7: in gas?

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Speaker 2: At that time you noticed him and you remembered him

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Speaker 2: because because of his eyes and his tattoos and what

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Speaker 2: happened next he leaves.

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Speaker 3: You don't think any more about it until when.

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Speaker 5: Until I saw him on the on the on Facebook

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Speaker 5: the next morning.

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Speaker 4: What did you say?

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Speaker 5: His my shot saying if you'd seen him, he was

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Speaker 5: the last scene with Audrey. If I had, if you

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Speaker 5: had seen him, please call and so I did you do.

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Speaker 2: Know that by you calling, that's how police found him, right, ma'am?

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Speaker 2: Are you concerned at all about the possibility of him

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Speaker 2: getting out on bond?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 5: I would hope not. I would hope not. Please not.

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Speaker 2: Would it concern you if he gets out on bond,

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Speaker 2: if he's walking free.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, definitely yes. Why because he's dangerous, he's crazy.

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Speaker 5: He doesn't need to be out and.

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Speaker 4: You're a witness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did you ever meet or see Audrey or her

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Speaker 2: father or mother or grandparents?

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Speaker 7: I know my daughter is friends with Audrey's mother, and

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Speaker 7: we have known Audrey when she was smaller, but not

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Speaker 7: seen her here recently.

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Speaker 3: Why wasn't the mother living with her?

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Speaker 5: I have no idea. I have no idea because it

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Speaker 5: sounds late to me. She was in a worse situation

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Speaker 5: than if she would have been with her mother.

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Speaker 4: You know, does the mother live in town there?

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Speaker 5: He lives in Livingston, I believe.

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Speaker 2: Okay, with a population of a little over five thousand people,

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Speaker 2: how far away.

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Speaker 4: Could it be?

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Speaker 2: Do you know how the dad knows the perpetrator friend?

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Speaker 5: If you look on their face on his Facebook, they

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Speaker 5: have Uh he's been tagged in posts of the dads

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Speaker 5: for years. It looks like like they were friends.

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Speaker 4: So they go way back.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and like, uh, the grandma.

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Speaker 5: I think it was posted a picture where he went

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Speaker 5: on vacation with them to Florida last year.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I saw that.

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Speaker 5: Isn't that crazy? That is just I just don't understand.

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Speaker 3: I guess that's one word for it.

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Speaker 2: You are hearing the voice of Leslie Gaskins, the excellent

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Speaker 2: employee who saw the suspect on the morning that Augie

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Speaker 2: goes missing and called police. Miss Gaskins, thank you. I

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Speaker 2: hope you are prepared to testify.

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Speaker 7: Yes, ma'am, absolutely, I will do my part. He shouldn't

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Speaker 7: have never been out anyway, not with his rest. He

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Speaker 7: should have never been out.

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Speaker 4: Miss Gaskins, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Adjoining us sound all Star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 2: what we know right now but overnight, this is what

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Speaker 2: we learn.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 9: According to court documents, Don Stephen McDougall used a rope

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Speaker 9: consistent with a rope seen in his vehicle two days

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Speaker 9: earlier during a police traffic stop to tie a large

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Speaker 9: rock to the body of Audrey Cunningham to weigh it

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Speaker 9: down in the Trinity River.

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Speaker 10: Investigators were able to locate the body of Audrey Cunningham

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Speaker 10: in the Trinity River by using cell phone records and

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Speaker 10: video analysis, but they also needed help from the Trinity

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Speaker 10: River Authority to lower the level of the water on

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Speaker 10: the river so divers could find Audrey.

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Speaker 9: After removing her body from the Trinity River, Sheriff Byron

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Speaker 9: Lyons said she was taken to the Harris County Medical

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Speaker 9: Examiner's Office in Houston to determine the cause of death.

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Speaker 2: Running US an All Star panel, but first to Bob Price,

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Speaker 2: joining US associate editor senior news contributor Breitbart Texas.

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Speaker 3: Bob, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about the rock that was used to weigh

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Speaker 2: down this eleven year old girl's body.

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Speaker 11: So, Nancy, I suspected that he had used some kind

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Speaker 11: of a weight or device to tie her down. I

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Speaker 11: asked Sheriff Lyons about that during the press conference on

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Speaker 11: Tuesday when they announced that they had found her body,

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Speaker 11: and at that time he did not want to disclose

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Speaker 11: the information as to what he had used to weigh

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Speaker 11: her down, but he did not deny that she had

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Speaker 11: been held underwater by some type of apparatus and stuff.

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Speaker 11: So now we know that there was a rope used,

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Speaker 11: a rope that was seen in his vehicle two days

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Speaker 11: before during a traffic stop, which again re emphasizes that

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Speaker 11: the avoidability of this tragedy had there been an arrest

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Speaker 11: warrant for mister McDougall on an aggravated assault where he

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Speaker 11: stabbed an individual back in August and was identified by

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Speaker 11: the victims as the attacker in this assault, there would

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Speaker 11: have been a warrant for him during that traffic stop,

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Speaker 11: and he would have been in jail two days before

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Speaker 11: her death.

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Speaker 2: You know what, I've been torturing myself all night long

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Speaker 2: about could as should have? Would we have been looking

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Speaker 2: at the affidavit attached to a warrant and gleaning information

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Speaker 2: about the death of this eleven year old girl and

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Speaker 2: what was transpiring during the time after daddy leaves the

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Speaker 2: house and the defendant is there alone with the little girl.

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Speaker 3: Joining us right now.

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Speaker 2: Tim Miller, the founder of Texas Equa Search, who actually

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Speaker 2: went and searched, searching the waterways trying to find Audrey.

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Speaker 2: Tim Miller, thank you for being with us. You've done

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Speaker 2: so many water searches. Tell me about this search and

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Speaker 2: the discovery of her body. When you were using sonar

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Speaker 2: looking through the water there, which has a pretty good

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Speaker 2: current to it, could you tell at that time she

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Speaker 2: was weighted down?

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Speaker 12: Well, Nancy. When we got involved in that, the sheriff

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Speaker 12: actually called the Friday and said he needed our help,

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Speaker 12: and we had many many ground searches. Saturday, we found

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Speaker 12: something right along the shoreline which ended up as being evidence.

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Speaker 12: So where that was found. I decided I need to start, so.

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Speaker 2: Nark, Okay, why are you talking about the Hello Kitty backpack?

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Speaker 12: No, something else, not the backpack. What we found something

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Speaker 12: right at the edge of the I don't want to

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Speaker 12: disclose that. Now.

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Speaker 4: Was it a shoe? Was it clothing?

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Speaker 12: It was clothing? So I decided I wanted to start

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Speaker 12: so dark.

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Speaker 4: Was it odd? Was it a girl's clothing?

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Speaker 12: Yes, bam, and it definitely is evidence one said, is

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Speaker 12: it is?

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Speaker 2: I mean, hold on, just a second, hold on, just

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Speaker 2: a second, joining me, director of Victim Services. They're in Texas,

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Speaker 2: joining me out of Houston. Andy Cohn, longtime colleague, Andy,

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Speaker 2: the girl's clothing. He obviously the girl was sex assaulted.

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Speaker 2: That why would she not have clothing on? Why would

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Speaker 2: her clothing be separate from her body? Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 2: this guy needs to be on death row.

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Speaker 4: It's not the first time. Andy. What in the hay

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Speaker 4: is going on in Texas?

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Speaker 2: This guy had a fence after offense, after a fence.

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Speaker 2: And now I'm hearing from Tim Miller article of clothing

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Speaker 2: found at the edge of the river. And Tim Miller, who,

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Speaker 2: by the ways, the crime victim himself, His daughter was

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Speaker 2: murdered is out there and sees this.

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Speaker 4: What's going on?

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Speaker 13: You know, Nancy, there's a reason we have the death

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Speaker 13: penalty in the state of Texas.

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Speaker 8: And McDougall is now the poster boy why we have

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Speaker 8: to death?

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, you can blow your horn about Texas

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Speaker 2: and justice.

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Speaker 4: But why was this guy of you? Why was he

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Speaker 4: out free?

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Speaker 2: He had already crawled in between the sheets with another

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Speaker 2: little girl and taken off for underwear and pjs.

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Speaker 4: He's got one offense after the next, after the next accidents.

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Speaker 2: The man is using meth for Pete's sake. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the Nazi tattoo alone should have gotten him kicked off

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Speaker 2: the property.

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Speaker 4: That didn't work.

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Speaker 2: But that said, don't start preaching to me about Texas

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Speaker 2: eyes of death penalty.

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't know what this guy's doing, not walking around.

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Speaker 8: To start with, the State of Texas failed eleven year

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Speaker 8: old Audrey Cunningham.

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Speaker 4: No issue or lah blah.

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Speaker 8: State of Texas failed this ten year old girl back

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Speaker 8: in two and seven, who he evidently was trying to

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Speaker 8: sexually assault, and he got a sweetheart deal. He got

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Speaker 8: sweetheart deal after sweetheart.

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Speaker 4: How did you know she was ten years old?

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Speaker 3: I didn't know that' had have been made public.

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Speaker 14: Yes it is.

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Speaker 8: I'm looking at it right now.

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Speaker 4: Yes, we were trying to protect her identity. I will

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Speaker 4: send you another ten year old girl. And you're very.

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Speaker 2: Similar to Audrey correct, very similar. And now this, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know what, Andy khn.

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Speaker 4: My dad, God rest your soul.

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Speaker 2: Daddy would a killless guy if he had tried to

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Speaker 2: get in bed with me or my sister or brother.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand why he got a cheap pleader. And

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Speaker 2: on the cheap plead deal, Andy con he didn't even

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Speaker 2: say I'm guilty. They let him plead no loa contendre. No,

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Speaker 2: he wouldn't even admit what he did.

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Speaker 4: I mean, talk about a sweet deal, Texas.

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Speaker 3: Just this is my rariand and.

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Speaker 13: They cut it down to enticing a child, which isn't

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Speaker 13: even an offense that you have to register for. And

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Speaker 13: that brings us to what we're going to be doing

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Speaker 13: next legislative session. And I made a promise and I'm

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Speaker 13: going to continue their promise that we are going to

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Speaker 13: name a bill.

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Speaker 4: Please.

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Speaker 2: You know you think I trust a bunch of politicians

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Speaker 2: in a room together, No, I trust me.

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Speaker 4: I mean I trust you, Andy, I know you're going

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Speaker 4: to do the right thing to.

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Speaker 8: Make it happy.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Can I get to legislation? Let me guess it's

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Speaker 2: going to be called Audrey's Law. Yeah, that's I don't

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Speaker 2: love the child dead, so she could have a law

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Speaker 2: named after her.

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Speaker 3: I want her alive.

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Speaker 2: I can't have what I want now. The only thing

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Speaker 2: I can get is a death penalty. That's the only

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00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:52,600
Speaker 2: thing we can work toward now. But that said, you

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Speaker 2: can tell me about your legislation later, and don't worry.

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Speaker 2: I respect what you're doing. I value what you're doing.

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Speaker 2: I want you to do it, but I guarantee you

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Speaker 2: if you leave one little crack in that legislation, some

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Speaker 2: defense attorney's going to find a way around it so

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Speaker 2: it won't apply to their client. Think about that, Tim Miller.

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Speaker 2: Can I get back to the search.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you just.

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Speaker 2: Got me so upset thinking about her being separated from

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Speaker 2: her clothes. Now, I don't know what piece of clothing

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Speaker 2: it is. It could have been a shirt, it could

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Speaker 2: have been her pants, it could have been her underwear.

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Speaker 3: But when you.

362
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Speaker 2: Said it's definitely evidence, that makes me think it could.

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Speaker 3: Have been her underwear.

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Speaker 12: Well, it was definitely clothing. And it's definitely hers. So

365
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Speaker 12: I decided to start to it side Scamstone.

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Speaker 4: Is it her pants?

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Speaker 15: Uh?

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Speaker 12: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Why does an eleven year old girl not have her

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Speaker 4: pants on?

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Speaker 2: He raped her? He raped her. This animal raped this

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Speaker 2: eleven year old girl. Okay, back to the search. Guys

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Speaker 2: who are talking about sonar, think about you've seen if

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00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,119
Speaker 2: you have it, gone fishing yourself, You've seen it on

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Speaker 2: the fishing channel.

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Speaker 4: You can't miss that.

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Speaker 2: It's twenty four seven three sixty five people are fishing.

378
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 2: It looks like a blurry iPad screen. They even have them.

379
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 2: You can hold in your hand the size of a

380
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 2: cell phone and it looks great. But then you can

381
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Speaker 2: see black spots. Some are a lot more sophisticated, but

382
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 2: those spots are objects in the water. Now, Tim Miller

383
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 2: has state of the art. Okay, tell me what happened

384
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: to me?

385
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 12: Well, I started so round in that area, and of

386
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:43,919
Speaker 12: course the railroad was high, the current was strong, and

387
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,560
Speaker 12: it's like, oh my god, is she gonna wash away?

388
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Speaker 12: Or what? Sunday?

389
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Speaker 8: I got.

390
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Speaker 2: What I thought was, what did you see that made

391
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Speaker 2: you know it was Audrey Well?

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Speaker 12: On Sunday when I sold around, I didn't know it

393
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Speaker 12: was Audrey the conditions or the worst so you could

394
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Speaker 12: ever imagine it was Sonar. So I went back to

395
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,919
Speaker 12: the same exact spat in the image I got. I

396
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 12: couldn't get it again. I couldn't get again. I literally

397
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 12: went through that area more than eighty times. And then

398
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 12: I got another image and I said, oh my god,

399
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,159
Speaker 12: I said, I could make out Waids and arms.

400
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Speaker 4: Now hold on, Tim Miller.

401
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: You know we don't say OMJ on CS crime stories,

402
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,719
Speaker 2: but go ahead. Oh what did it look like, Tim Miller?

403
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: How could you tell that it was a child versus

404
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 2: something else?

405
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 12: No, I could make out the body. So I went,

406
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 12: but it wasn't as clear because of the currents, because

407
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 12: of where it was. It was difficult at best. So

408
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,959
Speaker 12: that I kept sold out and so on Arm. And

409
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 12: then Monday I so nut again.

410
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 2: It got Tim what went through your mind when you

411
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:53,879
Speaker 2: spotted that?

412
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 12: You must have just I knew it was her, but

413
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,640
Speaker 12: I couldn't repeat it. And it's like, how come if

414
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,639
Speaker 12: they were shutting there, it's got to stay there. And

415
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 12: so I got with the divers on Monday and the

416
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 12: Texas Rangers. I showed them the image.

417
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 4: Did you go down yourself?

418
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 8: No?

419
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 12: I didn't dive. I don't even take a bath, but

420
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,400
Speaker 12: I'm pretty good at shouldar.

421
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 4: But let me ask you a question.

422
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 2: So you guys are diving in a fast current in

423
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 2: the river.

424
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 3: Correct.

425
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 12: Well, on Monday, when I showed the damage and we

426
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 12: all got together, they said, oh my god, I think

427
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 12: you're right. I think it's abody. We have to dive

428
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 12: about it. Well, the currents were so strong and the

429
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 12: river was high that they could never get to that image.

430
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 12: So then they decided to shut the bed.

431
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,720
Speaker 2: It's hard, man, I've done dives in fast currents and

432
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,040
Speaker 2: rivers and it's it's not like on TV.

433
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 3: It's really hard to do that.

434
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,200
Speaker 2: Much less to get was she all the way down

435
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:57,920
Speaker 2: at the bottom because.

436
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 4: Of the rock?

437
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 12: It was tied off to that road.

438
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 4: She was tied onto the roape.

439
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 3: And at the other end of the road was a rock.

440
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, And so then her body was the rock on.

441
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:09,880
Speaker 4: Her body and tied to her body.

442
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 12: Now I was on the rope.

443
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 4: Okay, question, go ahead.

444
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: So the body, Audrey's body was not on the bottom

445
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,359
Speaker 2: of the river on the river bed. The rot was

446
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 2: on the river bed, and she was in the water.

447
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 12: She was in the water, and so she was just

448
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 12: swirling and swirling in there, and that's why I could

449
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 12: never picked that saving image at the saving fast spot.

450
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 12: But I'm going to tell you the best thing he did, Nancy.

451
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 12: The best thing he did was tire off and weighth

452
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 12: her down because if he wouldn't have done that, and

453
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 12: she would have floated that current go four miles an hour,

454
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Speaker 12: in twenty four hours, she would have been ninety six

455
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:57,720
Speaker 12: miles away, So.

456
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 3: That, just like Natalie Holloway, were fine.

457
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 12: The best thing he did for the search efforts was

458
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 12: to go ahead and waiter down otherwise again in that current,

459
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 12: and it's just take it. She would have popped up

460
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 12: at night when nobody was there in twelve hours, she

461
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 12: would have been fifty miles away. So you know, it

462
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 12: was a blessing in disguise. So yeah, when I got

463
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 12: that on it again, they dove on Monday. They could

464
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 12: not even get to it because of the occurrence. They decided

465
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,879
Speaker 12: to shut the day and once the water go down

466
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 12: and the next day would I guided there. They found her.

467
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: Jim, what do you mean when you say she was

468
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 2: swirling and swirling?

469
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 12: Well, if you can imagine in a current and there's

470
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 12: a big swale there. It's between the railroad bridge and

471
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 12: fifty nine South Bridge, which is close together, so the

472
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 12: water coming around them pilings and stuff just created a

473
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 12: huge eddy So she was down there just basically almost

474
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 12: going in circles and moving around and moving around. And

475
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 12: that's why it was so hard to get her at

476
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 12: the very saved location because what her bodies at the bottom,

477
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 12: it's going to stay at the bottom until it starts

478
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 12: gasting up and then it'll start moving. So I would

479
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 12: go back to the same exact spot and she wasn't there.

480
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 12: I go again and then get it located in another area,

481
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 12: and she would.

482
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 14: She was just moving.

483
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:35,120
Speaker 12: She's just moving around, and I anticipate if she wasn't

484
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 12: being found, of course she would have never floated, and

485
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 12: as bad as the sounds of fish life and turtles

486
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 12: and stuff would have you know, she would have just

487
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 12: ate that body and she would have been found. So

488
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 12: it was huge effort with everybody, and you know what, Nancy,

489
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 12: God just put us in the right place at the

490
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 12: right time.

491
00:25:58,960 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 4: Kim.

492
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 3: Not everyone knows that you lost your daughter.

493
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 2: So when you get a case like this, what does

494
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: it mean to you that you found Audrey? You're the

495
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: one who spotted her on sonar.

496
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 12: Well, you may get me a little bit choked up

497
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 12: right now. And when I got home, I said, Laura,

498
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 12: thank you, just thank you, because if you were still

499
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 12: like I wouldn't be doing this. Were you there, I said,

500
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 12: thank you, Laura, because of the image and what we got.

501
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 12: That's why the divers were there. And again I'm not

502
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 12: saying this to pat myself in the back. There's no

503
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 12: ego involved in it. Again, I've just been blessed by

504
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 12: God with a you know what He's given me, and

505
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 12: and I'm pretty good at that sonar. I'm not an expert.

506
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 4: Enna, you don't have to pat your own back.

507
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 2: If it had not been for you spotting her on

508
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: the sonar, she could have come loose from that rope

509
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: and she would have been gone, Like you said, in

510
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 2: twelve hours, she'd be fifty miles away and we would

511
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 2: never have the answer to what happened to Audrey Cunningham,

512
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 2: and this savage, this brute would walk free to attack

513
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 2: another child.

514
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: And you know another thing, Tim, we know.

515
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: Of these two little girls ten one, eleven, very similar

516
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: in physicality. We don't know how many others are out

517
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: there because you and I know Tim Miller, then only

518
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: one I'd of say eight or nine sex assault victims

519
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 2: come forward, and that is a conservative figure. You are

520
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: hearing Tim Miller, my friend, my longtime colleague who runs

521
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 2: Texas equ Research. Everybody on the panel jump in. We

522
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: got a lot to get through. First of all, to

523
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: Joe Scott Morgan, renowned professor Fresi is joining us out

524
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 2: of Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet

525
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,679
Speaker 2: book on Amazon, and start of a hit series body

526
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott. Right now, we

527
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: don't have a cod cause of death. She's still at

528
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 2: the Harris County morgue. But you know, and I know

529
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: they know the cause of death. They probably knew the

530
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: cause of death the moment they looked at her. I'm

531
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: guessing asphyxiation of some sort. But let me talk to

532
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: you about a toxicology. Did he dope her up with

533
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: let's just say ben a drill or.

534
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 3: Something like that.

535
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: B you heard what Tim Miller said from Texas EQ

536
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 2: Research the water tempts.

537
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 4: Were very low.

538
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: How did that help or hurt?

539
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: Had there been any fish activity on her? I don't

540
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 2: see how she's in a swirling eddie. Just you know what,

541
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 2: you know more than me on this. Joe Scott just

542
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: hit me.

543
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 14: First off, I hope that the knots were not untied,

544
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 14: that's seen. I hope that.

545
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 4: Oh, yes, yes, yes, I hope.

546
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 14: I hope that the rock was not disengaged. Because when

547
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 14: when we work cases and they arrive at the morgue,

548
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 14: we want all of the elements present so that we

549
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 14: can fully appreciate, you know how, for instance, with her,

550
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 14: how she secured you think about the forensics of not tying.

551
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: Plus Joe Scott, what about potential DNA on the inside

552
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: of those knots.

553
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, and that's quite interesting, depended upon how long she

554
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 14: had been in there, and not so much she but

555
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 14: those knots. Were there any protected faces in there? My

556
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 14: right now, my gut would say no. But Nancy, there's

557
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 14: a saving grace here. And Tim had brought this up.

558
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 14: And this is the beauty of this this you used

559
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 14: term savage. That was kind that article of clothing that

560
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 14: was left on the shore there, If it was relatively

561
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 14: intact and it was not super saturated with water, there

562
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 14: might be a chance that you can find some foreign

563
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 14: DNA on there and that may.

564
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: Can you place be it just got really completely drained case?

565
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 2: Please speak to me and regular talk.

566
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 3: Are you talking about when.

567
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: You say I don't you're talking about sperm, You're talking

568
00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: about saliva. You're talking about epifilial skin cells, hair, any

569
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 2: fiber from his clothes, It could be on her pants.

570
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: Is there some other DNA I'm missing?

571
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 2: Hair, fiber, skin, sperm, blood, sweat.

572
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 4: Is there some other dnation I'm missing?

573
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 14: Well, also one of them?

574
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 4: Hold on, I think Tim's jumping in.

575
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 12: Tim, Yeah, can I break in real quick?

576
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: Please?

577
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 12: Actually whether the Texas Rangers yesterday and stuff's been doing

578
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 12: Alfi David and giving all the pictures to suffer the trial.

579
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 12: And one of the things that we talked about is

580
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 12: thank god that water was as cold as it was,

581
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 12: because if he's sexually as solted her, there's passively going

582
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 12: to be able to get steaming from her.

583
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 4: Good point.

584
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,080
Speaker 2: Okay, Joe Scott, I hate to treat you like a computer,

585
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 2: but that's more data that has been input into that

586
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 2: brain of yours. Now spit it out as best as

587
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: you can.

588
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: We'll all try not to enter out. Go ahead unless

589
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 3: we have to.

590
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 14: No, that's okay?

591
00:31:58,440 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 7: Sure?

592
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 14: Yeah, So And one other thing here, I think that

593
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 14: that's that's really pertinent is the fact that that garment

594
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 14: was found on the shore. I'm really wondering, Nancy, if

595
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 14: he had not picked that spot to you know, commit

596
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 14: commit this savage attack on her, that that's the location

597
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 14: where he may have stripped her and have done whatever

598
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 14: he did to her that you had previously mentioned. And

599
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 14: if that's the.

600
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: Case, you see it right there.

601
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: I would think that he would attack her and sex

602
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 2: assault her in the car or in some covered area,

603
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: not in the open area along the river bank.

604
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 5: Right.

605
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 14: Yeah, but I think very there at this point. I

606
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 14: don't think that anything can be discounted though we don't

607
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 14: even have a cause.

608
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: You're right, But tell me what we do know, well,

609
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: what we will get from that body.

610
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, well I can tell you this right.

611
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 2: Now when you don't know a horse. Look at his

612
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 2: track record. He tried to sex assault the other little girl.

613
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 2: So he tried to sex assault this little el Okay,

614
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 2: that's not a leap of imagination.

615
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 4: That's his track record.

616
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 2: Yes, And why else would he have her what to

617
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: sit in his car and play solitaire, to play tit

618
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 2: and watch TikTok Hell No, he attacked this girl. That's

619
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: why she didn't have her pants on. So what evidence

620
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: am I gonna get?

621
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 14: Well, given the fact that she is found in a

622
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 14: body of water, I think that it is going to

623
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 14: be very difficult to have success with a rape kit

624
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 14: if he ejaculated within her person. Okay, and she's nude

625
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 14: in the water. We don't know that at this point.

626
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 2: Are you telling me they can't retrieve sperm from her

627
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: vagina or rear?

628
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 4: End?

629
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 14: I mean, listen to what Tim just said. A second ago.

630
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 14: Her body was swirling around, Nancy, I.

631
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 2: Mean, would go into her vagina.

632
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 14: Of course it would. Of course it would, and it does.

633
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 14: And let me throw one more thing at you if

634
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 14: if that isn't enough, you're talking about a small child.

635
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 14: She's and I hate to say this, Nancy, but she's

636
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,680
Speaker 14: greatly dilated at this point in time.

637
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 4: If in fact, she was talking about her vagina.

638
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 14: Yes, Nancy, I am. And so that's okay, man.

639
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 4: Spit it out. I just okay.

640
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 3: Now, Actually you're making sense.

641
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: If her vagina is dilated because of the water, is

642
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: that what you're saying?

643
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 14: No, No, because of the sexual assault, because of.

644
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 4: The sex assault.

645
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 2: You're saying that's how water could penetrate the because ladies,

646
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: think about it, When you get in the bathtub, you

647
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: do not get water in your vagina.

648
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: Same thing here.

649
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: But what Joe Scott is saying, I think is that

650
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: because she we believe, had been raped, her vagina is

651
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 2: now dilated and water could enter and destroy the evidence.

652
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: Oh dear lord, unless there's some evidence on her pants,

653
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: is that right?

654
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 14: Yes, it is in one other area here that might

655
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 14: be a bit more protected, believe it or not, might

656
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 14: be her fingernails. I think that with nail clippings in particular,

657
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 14: because that's kind of a hooded area. If everybody will

658
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 14: just look at their fingernails, if she scraped him, there

659
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 14: might be a possibilities that's still trapped beneath her fingernails.

660
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 14: That's kind of a long shot, but that's what I

661
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 14: would be thinking as well, Scott.

662
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 3: Why don't we have a CEOD yet?

663
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 14: I think that they're taking their time with it. You know,

664
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 14: one of the things I thought about, and you know

665
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 14: this is way off topic. I'm really and they have

666
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 14: to consider this. I wonder if she was placed in

667
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 14: there alive. I don't know that, and they're trying to

668
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 14: make a determination as to whether or not perhaps she

669
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:36,439
Speaker 14: had taken on water in life and they would find

670
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 14: evidence of that in her lungs. Also, there's a test

671
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 14: that we do in the inner ear at autopsy that

672
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 14: we check for drowning. I think that part of that

673
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 14: is that's what's complicating this to this point.

674
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 4: And also the subitation a matter of removing the lungs

675
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 4: and weighing them to see if they're wet.

676
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah you can't and there's this standard empty.

677
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 14: Yeah it does. However, what they will want to do, Nancy.

678
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 14: Also with drowning to confirm it is we look for

679
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 14: what are called diatoms, and that's these little creatures that

680
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 14: exist in the water that you take on and you

681
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 14: have to look at them microscopically. So I'm wondering if

682
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 14: that might be part of it as well, NaNs.

683
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: I mean, whatever lives in the river water, whatever microscopic

684
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: organisms would now be.

685
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 3: In her lungs. Yeah, and that now what is the

686
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 3: inner ear test for drowning.

687
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 14: Well, that you would actually have water contained within the

688
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 14: inner ear, and so that's part of the drowning process

689
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 14: as well, And so that's something that we would want

690
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 14: to consider, and that they're looking at I can tell

691
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 14: you they're being very third with us.

692
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 2: Joe Scott jump in as we move along, But I

693
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: want to talk about this affidavit joining.

694
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 4: You right now.

695
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 2: High profile lawyer out of Livingston, Atlanta, Shadwick, former j

696
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: former prosecutor, legal analysts for Breitbart in Texas, Atlantashadwick dot

697
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: com LANDA thank.

698
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: You for being with us.

699
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 2: Have you read the Affidavid, I've got a few things

700
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about.

701
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 4: This guy is so full of crap.

702
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: Because we hear police say this is where you're going

703
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: to come in Lee Reaber that they were able to

704
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 2: place a defendant with the victim. Now how through cell

705
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 2: phone data? We know that through other digital information and

706
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: through information from him. But I am telling you right

707
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 2: now he was lying through his teeth. The information they

708
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 2: likely got from him is from his cell phone. Because

709
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 2: triangulation doesn't lie, pings don't lie.

710
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 4: This guy lied through his teeth.

711
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 6: Well they've got him now. I mean he at the

712
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 6: bridge with cell phone data at the pens. I mean,

713
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 6: you can lie all you want to, but you know, unfortunately,

714
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 6: I mean, I mean unfortunately, he tied her to a

715
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,839
Speaker 6: rock and that's where the body was found, they're going

716
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 6: to be able to ping his cell phone, get video

717
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 6: footage of that two thousand and three blue suburban and

718
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 6: placed him there. And now that vehicle is in the

719
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 6: custody of law enforcement authorities and you know they are

720
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 6: combing it.

721
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 4: You know, I want you to.

722
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 2: Look Lanta at paragraph five, Shell show through investigation, that's

723
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: the cop it's see. Affient investigations were able to determine

724
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 2: through cell phone data, video footage, and other forensic evidence

725
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,800
Speaker 2: that McDougall lied about his whereabout guide and activities.

726
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, they got him.

727
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 4: He flat out law all right.

728
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 2: And another thing, take a listen to our friend at

729
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 2: crime Online, Rachel Benia.

730
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 10: According to kat rk Don, Stephen McDougall was seen in

731
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 10: a Livingston mechanic shop near Highway fifty nine the day

732
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 10: Audrey went missing. Workers at the shop said McDougall was filthy,

733
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 10: covered in dirt and acting suspicious. He was there trying

734
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,760
Speaker 10: to get a part for his blue Chevy Suburban.

735
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 2: So we know that he was completely filthy at mechanics shop.

736
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: What about that Lanta filthy with what because he had

737
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: been down there at the river bank getting rid of

738
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: a body.

739
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 6: Well, absolutely, that's evidence of where he was beyond you know,

740
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 6: having cell phone pigs and video footage.

741
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 4: Now they've got.

742
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 15: Him covered in a lake, river.

743
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 6: Mud and so saying he's stealthy. So the guy said smart,

744
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 6: he didn't even bother to clean up anything before he

745
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 6: goes out to get a part for a car.

746
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace.

747
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 3: I'm very curious about what we know.

748
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: Regarding that video footage and the cell phone pings. Bob

749
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 2: Price joining me, Associate editor, senior news contributor, Breitbart Texas. Bob,

750
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 2: do you know that the pings absolutely place him on

751
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: that bridge, because based on what Tim Miller is saying,

752
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: he didn't throw a body off a bridge, he went down.

753
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 11: On the river bank, right, and with the clothing found

754
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 11: on the river bank and not tangled up in the

755
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 11: grass along the river's edge, we know that he was

756
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 11: up on that bank and probably placed her or pushed

757
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,919
Speaker 11: her into the water with that rock attached. Not only

758
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 11: the cell phone day to confirmed that though he took

759
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 11: the police to that location on Saturday and said that

760
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 11: that was one of the places they'd been. Now, he

761
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 11: lied about some other things, but he admitted that he

762
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 11: was at that location. The interesting thing about him.

763
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 4: Getting a part please, my dear sweet boy.

764
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: He only did that when they showed him, Hey, your

765
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: phone is paying right here?

766
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 11: Oh sure, probably probably so bad.

767
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 4: It volunteer, and he lied through his teeth man.

768
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 11: So he was at this car shop getting parts for

769
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 11: his car. He went on Facebook that day and started

770
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 11: selling off a bunch of his personal belongings. He was

771
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 11: planning to run at that point, and unfortunately the police

772
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 11: caught up with him before he had a chance to flee.

773
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 2: Lee Reber's joining us at a new Alexandria, Virginia mobile

774
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: device forensic expert and CEO of Oxygen Forensics, Inc. He

775
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: is the author off Listen to this Mobile Forensic Investigations,

776
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 2: and he's a host of a podcast which is great,

777
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: by the way, Forensic Happy Hour. Lee Reber, thank you

778
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: for being with us. Lee, Explain to me how much

779
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: can I rely on pings? How accurate are they? Can

780
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 2: they place him at that river bank? Hey, Tim Miller,

781
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: how close were Audrey's pants to the bridge? Were they

782
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 2: thrown from the bridge or would he have had to

783
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 2: go down to the river bank.

784
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 12: Got to go down to the river bank and it

785
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 12: was actually in the water, So it was saturated with water.

786
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: Oh, Joe Scott Morgan is not going to like that

787
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: because that could have gotten rid of any forensic evidence

788
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 2: linking the defendant back to her pants.

789
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 3: But that said, I'll go back to you in a second,

790
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 3: Joe Scott.

791
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 2: Lee Reeber explain to me how accurate is the pinging process?

792
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 16: Yeah, I think you know, if you look at the triangulation,

793
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 16: I mean that's it could be accurate. It could be

794
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 16: very accurate. What I think is more important is the

795
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 16: forensic evidence that's going to be from the device itself

796
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 16: when they go and do the collection of that, because

797
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 16: those are just GPS devices that could put you, i

798
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 16: mean a meter to the location. So I think that

799
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 16: utilizing obviously identifying being able to Kee's lying because it's

800
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 16: the location. But once they have that device in their

801
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 16: possession and do the processing of that, it's going to

802
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 16: show I mean, there might be photos, and the photos

803
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 16: have exit data, it can show location. They can have

804
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 16: just a simple from the data that's on the device,

805
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 16: any applications that we're utilized and showing GPS location. So

806
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 16: I think the data from the device itself will be

807
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 16: way more important than looking at, say the data from

808
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 16: the towers.

809
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 2: Great question, Bob Price joining us Breitbart, what year is

810
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 2: this Pervs Chevy suburban?

811
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 11: So the sheriff announced that they were looking for information

812
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 11: about this two thousand and three dark blue Chevy suburban

813
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 11: that he was seen driving in belongstick got it?

814
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 3: Two thousand and three?

815
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: Okay to Lee Reeber, mobile device forensic expert. Remember the

816
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: Alex Murdoch trial. How much we learn from his NAV system?

817
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 2: You can even tell Lee, and you and I talked

818
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: about this.

819
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: You were awesome.

820
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: When Murdach got in.

821
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: His car, his SUV, to leave the scene of the

822
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: double murder where he murdered his wife and son, the

823
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: NAV system will even show him opening the car door,

824
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 2: closing it, cranking up, putting the car in drive, driving,

825
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: screeching out of the crime scene, slow righting, driving like

826
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: a bat out of hell, slowing down. It showed when

827
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 2: he let his window down electronically, which I argue this

828
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 2: when he threw Maggie Murdoch's cell phone out the window,

829
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: let the window back up, and then high tailed it

830
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: to his mother's house twenty eight miles away. It showed

831
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: when he cranked back up, got back in and went

832
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: back to the crime scene and went, oh, dear Lord

833
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,279
Speaker 2: in heaven, my wife and son or dad, let me

834
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: call nine one one. It was all a lie.

835
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 4: But those nav systems are amazing.

836
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,839
Speaker 2: Is there such a na sism in a tooth NAV

837
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 2: system in a two thousand and three suburban?

838
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,399
Speaker 16: Well, the vehicle itself. I mean in two thousand and four,

839
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 16: you know, or if you remember the on Star systems,

840
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 16: you know they had on Star systems. I know the

841
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 16: two thousand and four Chevy suburban has an on Star.

842
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 16: They all have computers with the nav systems.

843
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 4: Of the two thousand and three.

844
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 16: Yeah, even in two thousand and three, I'm just saying,

845
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 16: and you know, as old as the two thousand and

846
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 16: three we had on Star navigational systems that are running

847
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 16: on all those opening doors. It be treasure trove along

848
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 16: with the data from the mobile device busted.

849
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 17: For sure.

850
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 2: They better get on that subpoena to Chevy right now,

851
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: because remember at trial all that evidence. They had asked

852
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: for it long ahead of time, but they got it during.

853
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 3: The trial or right before the trial. The defense almost

854
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 3: got to keep it out.

855
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: Hey word to the wys in Texas Lanta, Andy Conye

856
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: passed this along. Get the nav system information. Now, by Price,

857
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 2: what can you tell me about text messages between Audrey's

858
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: bio mom and McDougall.

859
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 3: Apparently he was offering.

860
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 2: For the two of them to meet, stating that the

861
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: little girl wanted to see her mom and coincidentally offering

862
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: to meet at the spot by the river where the

863
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 2: little girl is found.

864
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 11: So I've seen some of those posted on social media,

865
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 11: and clearly he was trying to entice this mother down

866
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 11: to that river. Now that raises a question that about

867
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 11: when is the actual time of death for Audrey. Did

868
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 11: he do something to her the night before and was

869
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 11: trying to get the mom down there to do something

870
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 11: with her as well. You know, there's a lot of

871
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 11: things that could come into play here, but clearly he

872
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 11: was trying to meet up with her and using Audrey

873
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 11: as bait if you will, to get her down there

874
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 11: to meet with him.

875
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 2: We know from what we also, Bob Price kept stressing,

876
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 2: don't tell anybody. Quote as long as no one says

877
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 2: anything about it being set up, no one would even know,

878
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: and she Augie wouldn't say anything.

879
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 11: And that's the moo that this guy has. He grooms people,

880
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 11: family members, children. All of this We know from what

881
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 11: was said yesterday on the show, that he assaulted a

882
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 11: woman by groping her at a public party, a married

883
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 11: woman just months before this. We know that he was

884
00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 11: at the birthday party of another eleven year old child

885
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 11: just months before this happened. He's hanging around all of

886
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 11: these types of people down there. The father has a

887
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 11: criminal conviction for assault causing bodily injury. You know, maybe

888
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 11: that's how they met somewhere.

889
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 3: But you're saying Audrey's father has that conviction.

890
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 2: Yes, so my speculation that they met in the penitentiary

891
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: could be accurate. What's another thing that's very disturbing about

892
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: these texts between Audrey's by a mom and the defendant

893
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 2: McDougall is he is saying, I will take her to

894
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 2: school and have you on the phone. I will take

895
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: her to school tomorrow. This is Wednesday night. The next

896
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 2: day is the day he was supposed to take her

897
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 2: to school, but whoops, she ended up.

898
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,439
Speaker 3: Without her pants dead in the river.

899
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: And he's talking to the mom the following morning, the

900
00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 2: day of the murders.

901
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 4: Good morning.

902
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 2: They're still planning to meet up with the girl, and

903
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: he says have you He says to her. Have you

904
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: seen Audrey? I dropped her off at the bus and

905
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 2: she didn't get on and hasn't gotten home.

906
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: So he's lying in these texts to the mother.

907
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 11: Bob, Yeah, if his lips are moving or his fingers

908
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 11: are touching a keypad, he's lying. And that's been consistent

909
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 11: throughout this whole thing, this whole area. The people in

910
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 11: the courthouse told me that there's thirteen sex offenders that

911
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 11: live within a very short radius of this house. This

912
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 11: father and another father are exposing their children to these

913
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,359
Speaker 11: types of people on a regular basis and putting these

914
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 11: children in dangerous situation.

915
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 2: I got a question about a photo for you, Lana Shadwick.

916
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: Chris McDonough joining us from the Cold Case Foundation, former

917
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:43,880
Speaker 2: homicide detective and host of the Interview Room on YouTube.

918
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 2: I've seen photos of the dad, according to Bob Price,

919
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: has a conviction for assault. Was it Aga Salt or

920
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: assault Bob.

921
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 11: The salt causing bodily injuring and misdemeanor misdemeanor.

922
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 3: Then they wouldn't have met in the pen maybe the

923
00:49:58,920 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 3: county jail.

924
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: But Atlanta and Chris, have you seen the photos of

925
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 2: Audrey's dad with the defendant.

926
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 17: Yes, I've seen the photo, Stancy.

927
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: Yes, the photo is of the defendant McDougal and Audrey's

928
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:20,440
Speaker 2: dad with whom she lived. They've got their arms around

929
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:25,000
Speaker 2: each other, all of his prison tattoos, his swaska, all that,

930
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 2: and plane view. They're hugging each other and they're shooting.

931
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:35,720
Speaker 2: It looks like the ab Arian brother. But that said,

932
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 2: they're wearing matching bracelets.

933
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 4: What kind of romance do those two have?

934
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 17: You know, that photo is obviously pretty disturbing, Nancy, And

935
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 17: for this strip bag in order for the State of

936
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 17: Texas to quite frankly hang a millstone around his neck

937
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 17: and toss him into the seat, I think it's important

938
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 17: not only that they look at what we call suspectology

939
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 17: and kind of dissect what his past is, but I

940
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 17: think this case is going to revolve and end up,

941
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 17: you know, balancing out on whether or not that child

942
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,240
Speaker 17: was alive when she was put into that water, because

943
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 17: that opens up a now an investigation into other potential

944
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,919
Speaker 17: crime scene locations, the house, the car.

945
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,919
Speaker 2: Why do you think at all handes on whether she's

946
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: dead or alive when she's done in the water, Because.

947
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 17: Dead now, because you have the like doctor Morgan was

948
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 17: talking about the chances of getting greater forensic and or

949
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 17: circumstantial evidence to put this guy away increase when you

950
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,319
Speaker 17: have crime scenes that you can actually collect that type

951
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 17: of evidence. Like, let's just use the cigarette butts for

952
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 17: an example, that he bought at the gas station. Where

953
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,360
Speaker 17: are those cigarette butts? If he bought cigarettes, where is

954
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 17: you know, his air filter? Is there evidence within that

955
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 17: air filter that placed him underneath that bridge through you know,

956
00:51:58,000 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 17: bringing in a botanist.

957
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: Well, we've got hold on, Please wait a minute, Chris McDonough.

958
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,120
Speaker 2: We have his pings placing him at the location where

959
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:16,439
Speaker 2: the child's body is found. Right, we have him being

960
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 2: the last one with.

961
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 17: Her, right, and that's all great evidence.

962
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,800
Speaker 2: We have him stating he had her in the car.

963
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 2: So what did she do? Go tie a rock around

964
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: your waist and throw herself off the bridge?

965
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 17: No, but that's all great evidence.

966
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 3: No, there's evidence right now to convict him.

967
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 4: Are you kidding me? Totally agree? You think we can't

968
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 4: prove this case without DNA?

969
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 2: We can, But how would you like the DNA is

970
00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: just the icing on the cake?

971
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 17: Auntie? How would we what I know? If I put

972
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:44,919
Speaker 17: a package in front of you in court, you would

973
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 17: shred this guy. But how would you love to find

974
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 17: semen in his truck where maybe that's where the sexual

975
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 17: assault took place.

976
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 4: And maybe we find her DNA or on his clothing.

977
00:52:58,760 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 4: Have you thought of it?

978
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Joe Scott, we stopped at the body.

979
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 4: What about his clothing?

980
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: Well, you don't think there's any fibers from her on

981
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:19,280
Speaker 2: his clothing? No epithilial cells, no blood, no nothing, hair, hair, anything?

982
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,000
Speaker 4: What about it? Joe Scott helped me out.

983
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 14: Brother, It's possible that you could. Here's the problem, as

984
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 14: admitted earlier, you were talking. One of the guests had

985
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 14: mentioned how filthy he was and encrusted with all of

986
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:33,719
Speaker 14: the s dirt.

987
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 4: But yet he was clean at the gas station.

988
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,040
Speaker 3: Interesting, go ahead.

989
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,919
Speaker 14: So we don't know what the status of the clothing are.

990
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 14: Is it possible that they could collect something from her,

991
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 14: from this precious little angel that may have made its

992
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,359
Speaker 14: way onto him, Yes, that's within the realm of possibility,

993
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 14: But we don't know how much due care was taken

994
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,839
Speaker 14: with us clothing, if in fact they have collected those

995
00:53:56,840 --> 00:54:00,360
Speaker 14: clothing from him or from wherever he was dombed solid

996
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 14: at the top.

997
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 4: Got something?

998
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 2: What about the rope, the rope. I mean, Lana Shadwick,

999
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 2: you're the high profile lawyer. Well, even a trash bag

1000
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 2: can be traced back to the lot, the group of

1001
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:21,319
Speaker 2: trash bags that were created, manufactured at what plant, in

1002
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 2: what city, on what day, and whether it was the

1003
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: same thing with car paint. Yes, you think they can't

1004
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: do the same thing on rope. You think they can't

1005
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: match up the rope and you know he cut it.

1006
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 2: You think that somebody like Joe Scott Morgan can't take

1007
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 2: the one end of the rope that was tied around

1008
00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 2: her body and the other end of the rope that

1009
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 2: was in his car. They already said it's the same

1010
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 2: rope and put it together and see forensically that they

1011
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 2: match perfectly.

1012
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 6: I think he can.

1013
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 7: He can.

1014
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm just a JD.

1015
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: I'm not a crime lab scientist, but even I can

1016
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: figure that out.

1017
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 14: Nancy's here's another beauty part to the rope depended upon

1018
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 14: how well they treated it and they removed it from

1019
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 14: her body. Did you know that if she was tied

1020
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:13,720
Speaker 14: up with that rope anti mortem prior to death, there's

1021
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 14: going to be evidence of that that you would not

1022
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,399
Speaker 14: necessarily see with a post mortem tie up, So she's

1023
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 14: got an upbraided area that's got any associated hemorrhage with

1024
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,560
Speaker 14: it or anything that's an indication that she may have

1025
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 14: been alive when she was tied up and secured at

1026
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:27,919
Speaker 14: that point.

1027
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: I got another idea for you, Jackie can hold up

1028
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 2: your note. I can't take credit. It's Jackie's something about

1029
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 2: the fact that he was clean at the gas station

1030
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 2: after he was filthy at the mechanics. Depending on which

1031
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: was first the shacken or the egg, does that mean

1032
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:50,920
Speaker 2: he then disposed of the body and was the body in.

1033
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: The truck for disposal.

1034
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 2: I find it really hard to believe it's top at

1035
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 2: a gas station with a dead body in the car.

1036
00:55:56,480 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 2: That said that means something, Lena Shadwick, I don't know

1037
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 2: what it means yet.

1038
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 4: Well, but I will find out what.

1039
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 6: It means in circumstantial.

1040
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 15: Evidence and direct evidence of him being by the river,

1041
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 15: by the lake, beyond the cell phone data and any

1042
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,879
Speaker 15: video footage and that sort of thing. You've got him

1043
00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 15: placed at a station where he's all clean in the video,

1044
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 15: and then he's.

1045
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: Tell me something I don't know, tell me something. Can

1046
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 2: there be neglect charges or felony neglect charges neglect that

1047
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,479
Speaker 2: ends in death filed against the father and plays. Don't

1048
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: everybody start screaming at me, you're blaming the victim.

1049
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,680
Speaker 4: I am a christ Okay, but I know this girl

1050
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 4: is dead.

1051
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 6: Injury to a child by negligence orough missions are fellony

1052
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 6: one in the state of Texas.

1053
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 2: So you will this fit that if the dad had

1054
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 2: knowledge of his record, could he be charged with felony

1055
00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: the neglect ending in death on a child?

1056
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 5: Certainly if knowledge?

1057
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,200
Speaker 4: Okay, but your father have knowledge?

1058
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 6: They got a romance going on, that's right, got the

1059
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:13,319
Speaker 6: same headbands on the same bracelet, the same headbands.

1060
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: Okay, Andy Cohn and a nutshell. You know how I

1061
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: hate talking about legislation because of the Audrey case.

1062
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 3: What do you hope to a help.

1063
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:27,200
Speaker 8: That we do end up bringing focus on offenders like mcdougle,

1064
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 8: who somehow escaped from having the label of sex offender

1065
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 8: on him. Maybe if he had to register back when

1066
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 8: he committed the offense of enticing a child in decency

1067
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,800
Speaker 8: with a child, when he evidently was trying to sexually

1068
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 8: assault a ten year old girl years ago, maybe that

1069
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 8: would have raised alarm bells at this time. Maybe the

1070
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 8: community would have known more about mcdoogle. Who knows, maybe

1071
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,439
Speaker 8: the parents, I don't know, but at least we would

1072
00:57:55,520 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 8: have known about his criminal history and his propensity to

1073
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 8: do sexual deviant acts around young girls. So what I

1074
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 8: hope to do next session is to take this case,

1075
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 8: make it a.

1076
00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 16: Catalyst for game.

1077
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 8: I set a nuts shell, catalyst for change, and add

1078
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 8: the offense.

1079
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 4: You know what I hate, Andy Kahn?

1080
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:19,200
Speaker 3: You know what I hate?

1081
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 2: Would a could a should have? Yes, I want you

1082
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 2: to champion that and I want it to pass. Maybe

1083
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 2: another little girl will be saved. Would a could a

1084
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:37,080
Speaker 2: should have? Can't bring Audrey cunning hand back.

1085
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 8: Multiple opportunities were failed.

1086
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 4: As thrill, We wait.

1087
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,760
Speaker 3: As justice unfolds. Goodbye,