1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Also media Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: about bad people and problematic people, and we've got both 3 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: this week with the story of Bruno Bettelheim, a man who. 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 2: Is really really testing my previous conclusion that like there's 5 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 2: no there's no what wrong way to react to having 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: been in a concentration camp. Maybe this way Bruno might 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: have might have been the guy to figure out the 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: wrong way. 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 3: Had to lose all sympathy. 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, my guest with me again as in part one, 11 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: Alison Rask and Alison, how are you doing? It's the 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: same day, but we pretend it's a separate one. 13 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 3: I'm good. What I didn't reveal it episode one, which 14 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 3: I feel like will be more relevant for this part 15 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 3: of what of his life story is that I actually 16 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 3: have had and OCD since I was four years old. 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: So I was someone who was treated for pretty severe 18 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 3: mental illness as a young child and was put on 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: prozac when I was four, and was actually incredibly thankful 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,639 Speaker 3: for my parents being proactive in that way and getting 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 3: me the help that I needed. So I'm like, not 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 3: so that it is at all against taking children's mental 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 3: health seriously, and it's like kind of a lot of 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: the activism I do, but I think we're about to 25 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 3: explore a scenario where that goes. 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: Wrong, horribly horribly wrong. 27 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. 28 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 4: Well, it's also you. 29 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: Know, it's interesting because a big part of Bruno's story 30 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: and a big part of like where people go wrong 31 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: because like, as you said, it's good to be involved 32 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 2: and care about your children's mental health and the mental 33 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: health of children in general. Bruno as a young man 34 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 2: takes this kid in who is like neurodivergent and her 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: mom just like I don't want to raise a kid, right, 36 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: find someone else to do it for me. And Bruno's 37 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: whole business as an adult is not just I'm helping 38 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 2: kids who are having problems. It's I am taking these 39 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 2: kids away from their rich parents who do not want 40 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: to deal with them and handling them, you know, which 41 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,359 Speaker 2: is very different from the healthy version of this where 42 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 2: you're just because I have a lot of empathy even 43 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 2: in this time right where we talk about like he's 44 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: diagnosing kids as things that we would not today because 45 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: they just don't. I'm not judgmental of someone who legitimately 46 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,360 Speaker 2: is trying to help kids, and its just like we 47 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: called things by different names then we didn't know as 48 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: much as we know now. It's one thing to make errors, 49 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: it's another thing to have your whole goal be what 50 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: if a concentration camp but nice for children, which is 51 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: again part of the motivating factor here. 52 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: And also like we're still getting stuff wrong now. Oh yeah, 53 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 3: absolutely then it was, but it's still a flawed system. 54 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 3: And yes, there's also a lot of debate about the 55 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: merits of diagnosing at all. Yeah, someone that has found 56 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: comfort and and sort of clarity in being diagnosed and 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: have had my diagnosis my pretty much my whole life. 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 3: But a lot of people don't feel that way, and 59 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: so it's it's an interesting debate. 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 2: And that they feel totally totally different about it than 61 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 2: in the forties. Like one thing they do constantly is 62 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 2: diagnosed kids as psychotic, right, which you cannot today. That 63 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: is not something that happens because like like like you, 64 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: the idea that like you would diagnose a child as 65 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: being a psychopath, right, is very normal then, right, And. 66 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: Well now they'll do oppositional defiance a sort right, right, 67 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 3: which is which is like a pathway or whatever towards 68 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 3: that eventual diagnosis. But there are certain restraints around what 69 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: age you can call people certain what age, you can 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 3: give them certain things. 71 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: And and that just like it's the wild West in 72 00:03:54,480 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 2: Bruno's era. Now Bruno has at the time, we've you know, 73 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: we're starting up here. He has just gotten over to 74 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: the US. He has escaped the Holocaust, and he has 75 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: gotten a job. He's started out as an academic. He had, 76 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: you know, lost his family business. At this point, he 77 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: has no money. But this lady who you know, he 78 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 2: had helped raise her daughter, is kind of taking care 79 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: of them, right, And the understanding is that they need 80 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 2: to figure out something, but like they're not immediate, they're 81 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: not like on the streets or whatever. Right, and Bruno 82 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: very quickly is able to get work for himself, although 83 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: there's also some problematic aspects because his initial gig he 84 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: gets hired to be an English teacher in Portland, Oregon, 85 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: and then World War Two starts and suddenly the idea 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: of having an Austrian man teaching English is like, we're 87 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,599 Speaker 2: not really bullish on the Austrians right now, even though 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 2: you were a victim of the Nazis, we don't actually 89 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: have a teaching position for you. 90 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: It just feed yeah, yeah, the persecution and everything that's 91 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: happened to him until then. 92 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, although it's also there's a degree to which this 93 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: works out well for Bruno because he doesn't really want 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 2: to be an English teacher and he doesn't want to 95 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 2: be an organ he is. He falls in love with 96 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 2: the idea of the city of Chicago, in part because 97 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 2: it has a more European layout, so he finds it 98 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: kind of more similar to where he'd come up. He 99 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: is very interested in child development and educational reform. These 100 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 2: are like academic interests. He's not a professional in these yet, 101 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: but this is what he wants for himself. So he 102 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: kind of works as an academic for a few years 103 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: until in nineteen forty four he receives his US citizenship. 104 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 2: That same year, he gets the job that will be 105 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,159 Speaker 2: responsible for most of his fame and for most of 106 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: the problematic things he's going to do in his life, 107 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: which is directing the Orthogenic School. Now, I know what 108 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 2: you got you're saying, Robert, Orthogenic School sounds a dystopian 109 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: as fuck. That is a scary name for a school. 110 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: It is a scary name. The word orthogenic comes from 111 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: Greek and it literally means straightening out. So the school 112 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: for straightening out kids. That's a scary thing to call 113 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: us school. It had been established in nineteen fifteen, and 114 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: it was a residential facility where kids were interned until 115 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 2: their behavior was deemed to be fixed. Right, Like, that's 116 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: the like where it is. So this is a When 117 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: you talk about a residential facility, some of them have 118 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: elements and this is certainly the case at the time 119 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: of like a prison. Right now, this is not one 120 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: of those. This is for kids with resources. 121 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 4: Right. 122 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 2: These are for kids with whose parents have money. So 123 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 2: this is not like the the This is not like 124 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: the worst versions of these facilities, right And in fact, 125 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 2: from the beginning, this is kind of viewed as a 126 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: response to those facilities which are a lot uglier. It 127 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: was a unique place geared not just for emotionally disturbed kids, 128 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: but for and these are the terms they use at 129 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 2: the time, but specifically for emotionally disturbed children of quote 130 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: above average intelligence. Right now, this means rich white kids, 131 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,920 Speaker 2: right ah, yes, yes, that's when we say above average intellect. 132 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 4: Right. 133 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 2: These are kids whose parents have money, and thus we're 134 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: our goal is to make sure they have a future. 135 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 3: Right It would be fun to go through history and 136 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 3: find all the different euphemisms for rich white kids. 137 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: And it's in when the school is found in nineteen fifteen, 138 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: they do they use these. They don't say this is 139 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: a school for rich white kids. They say like, this 140 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: is emostly disturbed but above average intelligence kids. Right as 141 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: soon as Bruno takes over, he's like, no, no Ah, 142 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:37,600 Speaker 2: let's just say it's a school for rich white kids. 143 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: That's what we're doing, right, that's what we want to 144 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 2: do here, you know. And as soon as he takes over, 145 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: his first job as director is to turn this into policy. 146 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,240 Speaker 2: Prior to him taking the director job, the school had 147 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: not had a white's only policy on paper. Bruno Institute's one. 148 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: He's like, look, let's call a we're racist as fuck. 149 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: We're racist as fuck. It's just say it's white and 150 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: again school in nineteen fifteen, is it willing to say that? 151 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 2: In forty four Brutos like, oh, obviously, we're whites only. 152 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 3: Like you go right from a concentration camp to like 153 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 3: a white's only instituting a white's only policy. I mean 154 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: it feels so like directly a I need to align myself. 155 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the people in power, yes, Like I can 156 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: no longer be viewed as other. And so it's like 157 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 3: this right, because I mean some people at that time 158 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 3: probably didn't definitely didn't view Jews as white. Like then 159 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 3: it would be like you're not allowed to be at. 160 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: This school, especially not at this time. 161 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 3: No, it's his way of like making sure that he's 162 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 3: in with the with the people in power. 163 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: And he is. 164 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 3: He has. 165 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 2: He does a lot of writing about his attitudes that, like, 166 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: he doesn't like Christianity either because he's not a religious guy, 167 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: but he thinks it's better than Judaism. And so the 168 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: school will be specifically a Christian school, even when it 169 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 2: sort of is educating kids who don't come from Christian families, 170 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: he tries to acculturate them. The only holiday they celebrate 171 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: at the school is Christmas, So his attitude is very 172 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: much even when the students are, you know, not from 173 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: a Christian background, I want to acculturate them as white Christians, right, and. 174 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 3: That is be a Jewish man would love to do that. 175 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know exactly how to celebrate Christmas now. Bruno 176 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: justifies his white's only policy by arguing that racialized children 177 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 2: that means non white kids, would confuse the white kids 178 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: and harm their recovery. The term racialized to describe kids 179 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 2: that just start white. No, these kids, they can't handle 180 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 2: the shock of seeing somewhere explicit white. That'll fuck up 181 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 2: their recovery. 182 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 3: That person doesn't look exactly like me. I have to 183 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: commit a cross. 184 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: I can't handle it. I can't handle it. I'm gonna 185 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: go rob a bank now. Bruno also wrote that he 186 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 2: was only interested in white students from quote good high 187 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: class stock. That meant kids who's families could afford to 188 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: send them to college. He instituted a tuition of eight 189 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: to twelve thousand dollars a year to ensure that no 190 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 2: poor children were educated at the Orthogenic school. If you're 191 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: carrying the forties, that's in the forties. Wow, that is 192 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: this is like really really like high grade university education. 193 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 2: Is what this costs per year. And the expectation is 194 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 2: that you will put them in there at least for 195 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: two years, and many of them for like something like 196 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: ten to twelve. Right, he really wants you to give 197 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: your kid to him for that kid's entire childhood. Otherwise 198 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 2: he can't fix them, right, that's his motivation. 199 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 3: But then if you do, they come out great. 200 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 2: But then they come out. 201 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: But if they see a person with different colored skin, 202 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: they will start screaming. 203 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: No, you got to give you gotta let me have 204 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: them until they're like twenty, you know, make sure you 205 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: don't see anybody else. 206 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 3: They can't see anyone else or they will lose it. 207 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like forty to sixty kids at this institution 208 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: at a given time. Now, the Bruto also has another 209 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: issue with the school as soon as he takes over. 210 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 2: You know, first job, make it expensive as shit, only 211 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: white kids. Second job, he has a real issue with 212 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: the fact that the orthogenic school there, you know the 213 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: motto is a place to go grow straight and tall, 214 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 2: allows disabled kids to be educated there. And he doesn't 215 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 2: like that because somebody with a physical disability can never 216 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 2: go grow straight and tall. And Bruno's eyes right. So again, 217 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 2: what the first things the Nazis do is go after 218 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: people with specifically children with disabilities. This is how they 219 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: test the the like the the the gas chambers right like, 220 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: which are initially like mobile execution vans for disabled people. 221 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: What is one of the first things Bruno does when 222 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 2: he starts this school, No more, get those disabled kids 223 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: out of here, none of them. 224 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 3: I mean, he's really telling on himself, right that he 225 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 3: wrote that paper that people's reaction to being in a 226 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: concentration camp is to become a Nazi. Kind of your reaction, brun, 227 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 3: Just like, no, I've just become a Nazi. Therefore everyone 228 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 3: else must have as well, okay. 229 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 2: In an article for Disability Studies Quarterly, Gryffin Epstein writes 230 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: whereas prior to his tenure, the school offered a residential 231 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: program for children with epilepsy and cerebral palsy, Betteleim was 232 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,199 Speaker 2: certain that public institutions could handle such cases. This was 233 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: a bold claim, given that public schools weren't mainstreamed in 234 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 2: the United States until the Education for All Handicapped Children 235 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 2: Act of nineteen seventy five in the forties. Thus, those 236 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 2: public institutions handling children with epilepsy and CP were abusive 237 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 2: state institutions, group homes, and hospitals. So he just kind 238 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 2: of lies and says, ah, the schools can handle, and 239 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: then the schools are like, oh, no, we just locked 240 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: those kids up. We don't know what to do with them. 241 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: You know, in his opinion, that's handling them right. 242 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 2: That's handling them right. It can't be fixed. You know 243 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: in his attitude, right. Bruno's second act as director of 244 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 2: the Orthogenic School was to recruit a new population of students, 245 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: and he focuses mostly on children with autism and others 246 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: who he calls quote young victims of extreme psychosis. And 247 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: the reason he picks these kids and again, we would 248 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 2: not diagnose them the same way today, but these are 249 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 2: all kids that he sees as not having visible physical disabilities. Right, 250 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 2: That is the key point, right, That's what he means 251 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: by autism, right, is something is not neurotypical about this kid, 252 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: But they are not, in my eyes, physically disabled. That 253 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: is what he means by this, right. 254 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 3: Not like developmentally delayed in a physical way. 255 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, and that's certainly how he sees it. 256 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 2: To continue with that article and constructing a dialectical opposition 257 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 2: between epilepsy, cerebral palsy and palsy and autism, Bettelheim helped 258 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: to tack to tacitly promote an eugenic logic of unreformable 259 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: versus reformable bodies. You know, and yes that is some 260 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: very very Nazi adjacent shit. 261 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: The whole time he was in that camp, he was like, 262 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: these are good ideas. 263 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 4: These are good. 264 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: If it wasn't the Nazis doing them, I wouldn't have 265 00:13:53,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: a Yeah, he's taking some wild things from his experience. 266 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 2: The medical logic behind all of this is also rooted 267 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: in Bruno's writing about concentration camps. In a letter to 268 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 269 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 2: Bruno's friend Alvin Rosenfeld explained of Bruno's beliefs quote, Bettelheim 270 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: showed the world how extreme abuse such as concentration camp 271 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: incarceration could severely distort personalities. That formed the basis of 272 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 2: his treatment model and laid the foundation for much of 273 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 2: our thinking about child abuse and post traumatic stress disorder. 274 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: And there is an aspects of this that are positive 275 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: and that are undeniably accurate. One of Bettelheim's legitimate achievements 276 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: is that he is an early proponent of the idea 277 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: that if you are working with emotionally disturbed or mentally 278 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: ill children and they are engaging in behavior that you 279 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: don't want them to engage in, your first task is 280 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 2: to understand the internal logic of the child. Why do 281 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: they think this is a good idea? 282 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: Right? 283 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: Why? Why are they choosing to act in this way, right, 284 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: that you should seek to figure out why they want 285 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: to do things. Right, In other words, what's going on 286 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 2: in the kid's head is important. You know. That is 287 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: a fairly unique idea at the time, right, And that's 288 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 2: that's a legitimate, you know, positive step. 289 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 3: And also I imagine what are they getting out of it, 290 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: right that, like, what is reinforcing this behavior? 291 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: Right? Yes, I think that that's a big part of it, 292 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 2: and that's overall like a good direction to be going. Unfortunately, 293 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: Bettelheim has another belief, and it's one that he will 294 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 2: talk openly about. This idea that like, you need to 295 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: understand why the child is making that is doing the 296 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: things that they're doing, their internal logic. He will also 297 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: say the whole time, you should never use physical punishment 298 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 2: on kids. That you don't do it, there's no cause 299 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: for it. The entire time he is working at this, 300 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 2: he is running this school, He is physically punishing these kids. 301 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 2: He just lies about it to parents and to academics 302 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: by saying, don't do this, we never do this. The 303 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 2: whole time he is using physical and mentally abuse, to 304 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 2: be very clear, right, And it's interesting to me that 305 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: he knows he has to deny it, right, cognitive dissonance. 306 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, because because it's one thing to believe, 307 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: like I think physical you know, punishment gets good results, 308 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 3: but to know that to like also know enough to 309 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 3: be like, no one will like that, or that's actually 310 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: not true, but that's what I want to do to 311 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 3: get the quickest results, or yeah, it's horrifying. I mean 312 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 3: it is very interesting. Like all research shows that any storm, 313 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 3: any form of physical punishment is not helpful, right, even 314 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 3: spanking has been like proven that it is not good. 315 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: It's interesting to me that if he were to have 316 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 2: said at this time, obviously you spank kids, you know, 317 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 2: sometimes you slap them a little bit, that would not 318 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: have been controversial. That would have been in the forties, 319 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: well within the standards of like normal childhood education. Right. 320 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: The fact that he's like, no, no, no, you should 321 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: never do this, but is still doing it is so 322 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 2: interesting to me. 323 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 3: He's a deeply troubled man. 324 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. This guy. Alvin Rosenfeld, who was Bruno's colleague and friend, 325 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: defends the fact that kind partly defends the fact that 326 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: Bettelheim uses physical violence. He argues that unlike most institutions 327 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 2: at the time. The Orthogenic school didn't use shock therapy, 328 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: it didn't have restraints or any other violent tools, but 329 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 2: sometimes the kids were so out of control that they 330 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: needed physical intervention, and Bruno courageously handled that unpleasant task 331 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: for his subordinates, assuring that quote they were free to 332 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 2: be far more nurturing. He admits that Bettelheim sometimes meted 333 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: out punishment that included slaps, but he frames this as 334 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,919 Speaker 2: minor for the era. Now, I won't say that like 335 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 2: what he did was extreme for the era, but it 336 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 2: wasn't mild, right, And we have a lot of reports 337 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 2: from kids who were with him during this period of time, 338 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: and they do not report a mild experience. And I 339 00:17:57,920 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 2: don't talk about this a lot on the show because 340 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: I'm not an ex or an educator. But i did 341 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: work in special let as a paraprofessional for the better 342 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 2: part of two years, and I'm unwilling to give detailed 343 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: stories on the air for reasons that should be obvious 344 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: and relate primarily to the privacy rights of those children. 345 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: But I will say that I dealt with primarily kids 346 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: who were frequently violent and who were about my size. Right, 347 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: These are seventeen, eighteen, nineteen twenty year olds, and many 348 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: of them are non The term we would use at 349 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: the time was nonverbal. And because of my size, I 350 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: worked with these kids very closely because I could take 351 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 2: a hit, and I was hit every day on that job. Right, 352 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: one of my colleagues suffered a near fatal injury a TBI. 353 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 2: Another had a broken jaw. So this was a I 354 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 2: understand sometimes you have to use restraints to protect yourself 355 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 2: and others. Right with kids who and some of the 356 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 2: kids were what we would call emotionally disturbed, there were 357 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 2: a variety of diagnoses that you had there. I'm aware 358 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 2: of the needs sometimes to restrain kids, and so I 359 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 2: want to emphasize that's not what's going on with Bruno. 360 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 3: Right. 361 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 2: For one thing, restraining is sometimes there's force involved in 362 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: restraining a kid. It's not violent. Your job is not 363 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: to harm them physically. Your job is to stop them 364 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: from causing harm to themselves and others, and sometimes the 365 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: only way to do that is to like physically hold 366 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: them so that they can't hit somebody or whatever. Right, 367 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 2: this is like a very difficult thing to do and 368 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: to talk about. I really don't know how to get 369 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 2: across like, I'm very empathetic to the people who are 370 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 2: good at this job, and I want to emphasize I 371 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 2: had no training in it. We simply don't get training 372 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: like that's another a major, massive problem. Or if it's 373 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 2: very like I had a four hour class on like 374 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 2: physical restraint and none of it, none of it was 375 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 2: functional stuff. 376 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 3: And there's also different types of restraints and some are 377 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 3: more harmful than others. 378 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and you know, as it was fifteen years ago, 379 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 2: I think it was very primitive and not we were 380 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: not adequately trained to do the job. I can only 381 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: imagine how bad it was in the forties. But again, 382 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 2: what Bruno is doing here, None of the stories that 383 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: I have from other kids are he had to make 384 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: difficult choices because a kid was violent and presented a 385 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 2: danger to others. They are all he was annoyed a 386 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: behavior and so he hit a child, you know, that 387 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: is what Bruno and I really want to emphasize. I'm 388 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: not naive about like the complex choices that have to 389 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: be made sometimes here, That's not what's going on with Bruno. 390 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 2: What he is doing to these kids a sadistic physical 391 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: abuse on a level that I have trouble comprehending. One 392 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: of Bruno's students is a kid named Ronald Angres. He 393 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 2: spent twelve years at the Orthogenic School, during which he 394 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: rarely saw his family. Bruno believed it was bad for 395 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: students to have regular contact with loved ones, and he 396 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: pushed heavily for parents to keep their kids enrolled there 397 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: for the entirety of their childhood. Right, you are abusing 398 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 2: your kid if you try to take them back and 399 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 2: raise them in your home, that's bad for them. I 400 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 2: have to have total control over them for the whole time. 401 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: Their children. Not a great sign there. 402 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 3: Anytime, anytime there's an encouragement for a child not to 403 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 3: have direct communication with their parents, something bad has happening. 404 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 2: So that's that's such a good point that like anytime 405 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: someone is being like no, no, no, you really shouldn't 406 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: see your kid, they're doing something fucked up, right, That's 407 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 2: just that's just yeah, very probably a very durable truth. 408 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: Speaking of durable truths, here's some ads. 409 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:39,200 Speaker 3: We're back, So. 410 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: We're talking about this this an article written by one 411 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: of Bruno's students, Ronald Onngres. Angres was diagnosed by Bettelheim 412 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: as autistic. We almost I will say, certainly, I think 413 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: would not apply that diagnosis to Angress today, because his 414 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: primary symptoms were that, like, he was bad at sports, 415 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: he was a little slow learning how to read, and 416 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 2: he like fidgeted sometimes, he had a thing for daydreaming. 417 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 2: Everything that he describes is what I would call like, Okay, well, 418 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: you're just a kid. Some kids take longer to learn 419 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 2: to read than others. Some kids aren't good at sports. 420 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: I wasn't good at some kids fidget, you know. None 421 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 2: of that is what I would call like or what 422 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: I think any expert would say, like diagnostic criteria for anything, 423 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: really right, Like they're not saying like he was not 424 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 2: incapable of like learning how to read or anything. He's 425 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: just a little slower than others. Fairly normal kid, right. 426 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: But Agra's father was a psychoanalyst himself, and a rich 427 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: one at that, and he'd diagnosed his child as disturbed 428 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 2: for a variety of utterly anodyne reasons. Quote, sometimes I 429 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 2: skipped while I paced. I had other unacceptable mannerisms too. 430 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: I sometimes talk to myself, lips moving when lost in thought. Again, 431 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 2: these just sounds like things people do, like such an. 432 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 3: Urge to overpathologize. 433 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, your kids like just talking to himself like 434 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: children do. 435 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: Like. I also feel like there's sometimes what happens is 436 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: like the expectations people have for how children should behave 437 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 3: is not realistic, so that it's like, oh, your kid 438 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: didn't sit through a four hour movie without like wanting 439 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 3: to get up and fidgeting. Something's wrong with them. It's like, no, developmentally, 440 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 3: they're not going to be able to do that. That's 441 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 3: a normal reaction. 442 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 2: Totutely normal for it, and that so much of what's 443 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: going on here is that these are rich parents and 444 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 2: they are annoyed that their kids maybe need a little 445 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,479 Speaker 2: bit of extra help, maybe aren't immediately ready to go 446 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 2: to fancy dinner parties or the met or something right. 447 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 2: And so they're like, well, I'm just gonna have you. 448 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: I'm going to lock you up with this guy, this weirdo. 449 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 2: That seems like they they're. 450 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 3: Children and they're only interested in adults. They just want 451 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: their kids to act like an adult. I look cute. 452 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 2: I am a rich professional in the nineteen forties. I 453 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: have highballs to drink, in binzos to eat. You know, 454 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 2: I have no time to raise my own children. So 455 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: Ronald's father's sense of professional ethics meant that he couldn't 456 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: treat his own son. The Orthogenic School has a reputa 457 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 2: had a reputation, has a reputation. It's still around for 458 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: feeding children very well. This is a again, this is 459 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: a high dollar institution. They have excellent food. It is 460 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: an excellent space. It is a very immaculately clean There 461 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 2: is every kind of like piece of educational equipment is 462 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: all state of the art, right, very nice furniture. This 463 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: is a nice place. Right. I really need to emphasize 464 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 2: that if you look at it as a rich guy, 465 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 2: you will be impressed at the quality of the facility itself. Now, 466 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: Bruno would claim all his life that no child was 467 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 2: ever admitted to the Orthogenic School without having a chance 468 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 2: to visit and decide for themselves to consent to come. 469 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 2: Ronald says, bullshit. He was interviewed, but yeah, he says, 470 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 2: I was interviewed by Bruno, But I would never have 471 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: consented to go to that school, because from the moment 472 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 2: we met, he was cruel and belittled me. Quote. I 473 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: drew for him a picture of a man I don't 474 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 2: remember now if he asked me to. But all the 475 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: psychologists seem to rave such pictures, and I may have 476 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: tried in this fashion to break the ice. What a 477 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 2: stupid and ugly picture, he snapped. I did not yet know. 478 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 2: He fancied himself an art connoisseur. You did not draw 479 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: his hands there behind his back, I explained, You just 480 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: did that because you can't draw hands. Do you know 481 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 2: what it means when a boy can't draw hands? I 482 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: did not. I still don't. 483 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: What the fuck does that mean? 484 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 2: What does it mean? 485 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 3: Bruno? Hands like hard, it's really difficult to draw hands. 486 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, wow, so much anger, just like he's such a 487 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 5: such a angry view of the world, like such a 488 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 5: It's so funny these people that like their whole goal 489 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 5: is to like get people to act correctly. 490 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, are so emotionally unregulated themselves. Yes, yes, like he 491 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 3: got so outraged that this little boy didn't draw him. 492 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 3: You need to go do some deep breathing. Yeah, Bruno, 493 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 3: not appropriate reactions that you're happening. 494 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: What doesn't mean when a child can't draw? And I 495 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: want to continue that write up to appease him. I 496 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: redrew the picture and added some hands, carefully showing all 497 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,400 Speaker 2: five fingers. Preposterous. You drew the hands entirely out of proportion. 498 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 2: They're bigger than his head. Once more, he scowled darkly, 499 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: as if I were expected to know the sinister significance 500 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 2: of such a reversal of normal proportions. He asked, what 501 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: I hope to become when I grew up a scientist? 502 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: I replied, ridiculous. He's spat you want to be a scientist? 503 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: You can't even read again? This is a child, Holy fuck. 504 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 3: Villain out of a Bond movie? 505 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 2: Is what is going on here? Bruno? From the standards 506 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 2: of a period of time in which parenting was shall 507 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: we say rough, like that is bad child rearing. 508 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 3: It's also very funny to like, like imply that the 509 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 3: children were allowed to give consent and had to give consent, 510 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 3: Given that at that time period, I think the idea 511 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 3: that children could give consent or should was like not 512 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 3: a normal concept. 513 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 2: Like the idea that adults could give consent wasn't really 514 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 2: a normal concept. 515 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 3: But like, I feel like very few families like view 516 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,360 Speaker 3: children at that time as as autonomous individuals who were 517 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 3: worthy of giving consent, you know, so like, no way 518 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 3: was that happening, And. 519 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 2: It's such a weird thing that he would insist on 520 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 2: like telling. The lies he chooses to tell are always 521 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: very strange to. 522 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 3: Me, but they also they also are revealing of how 523 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 3: much he actually knows of what he's doing is wrong. 524 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's a very good point that he does 525 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: understand that this should be a thing the child consents to. 526 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: He just doesn't give a fuck. 527 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 3: So or maybe it's some guilt that he is has 528 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 3: and so his lies are around the things he feels 529 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 3: shame regret around, and so he's lying to himself. Who knows. 530 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: If I tell the lie, I can normalize the behavior 531 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 2: I know is good, even if I fall in short. Right, 532 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: maybe it's something like that. 533 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like maybe I well, I'm not doing it, 534 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 3: but I'm but I'm putting that out in the world. Right, 535 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: But I actually think this guy might think he is 536 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 3: doing it. I mean, I think there might be just 537 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: such a disconnect between Hi, Yeah, his actions and who 538 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 3: he thinks he is. 539 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that might that may in fact be 540 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 2: the case. Onngres calls him rude after this point. Fair 541 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: point to the kid, and he later wrote that he 542 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: would have been utterly shattered if he'd known then that 543 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: he was about to spend the remainder of his childhood 544 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: in Bruno's care, so his parents send him to the school. 545 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 2: When he starts at the Orthogenic school, he's allowed to 546 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: bring his favorite toys and the like with him. His 547 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: prized possessions are his comic books, and as soon as 548 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,719 Speaker 2: Bruno sees them, he announces a new rule, no comic books. 549 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 2: He also takes issue with one of Ronald's toys, a 550 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 2: wooden train, which he called stupid man, it's a train. 551 00:28:59,360 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: What the fund? 552 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 3: Now? 553 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: This is all pretty abusive, but by far the worst thing. Well, honestly, 554 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's all pretty bad, but he 555 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 2: also uses physical violence against little kids. Here's how Angres 556 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: later described his treatment at Bruno's hands. I lived for 557 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 2: years in terror of his beatings and abject animal terror. 558 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: I never knew when he would hit me, or for 559 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: what or how savagely. Bettelheim prized his unpredictability no less 560 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 2: than his unconventionality as someone who saw the secret depths 561 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 2: of men's souls. He glorified in defying ordinary notions of 562 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: which offenses were important, or even what constituted an offense, 563 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: what hostile character, he would say of me and countless 564 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: other boys as he beat us publicly. These beatings, which 565 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 2: made the greatest impression on me of anything that I 566 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: have known in life, stick in my memory as a 567 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 2: grand performance of exultant rage. Yeah. 568 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 3: I mean, look, I think we're learning that that going 569 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 3: through the amount of trauma that that Bruno went through, 570 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 3: when you don't like treat. 571 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 2: It or in any way deal with it. 572 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and when you then kind of claim psychology as 573 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: something that you have ownership over when you actually haven't 574 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 3: done any work on yourself can be a really a 575 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 3: really nasty outcome. 576 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: And yeah, it's it's interesting to me. It is probably 577 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 2: worth really re emphasizing that he is not this way 578 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: with that first kid. Now, he doesn't really spend much 579 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: time parenting her, right, he's working, But that kid that 580 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 2: he helps to raise in Austria, he's not hitting, at 581 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: least she doesn't. She does not recall him being anything 582 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: like this, right. 583 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 3: Well, he hadn't been in the camp yet. 584 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: He hadn't been in the camp yet, Yeah, he hadn't. 585 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: I wonder how much of it is the camp and 586 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: how much of it is like he hadn't made himself 587 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: remade himself as a psychoanalytic expert yet right, and I 588 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 2: don't think you'll ever you can ever like know you 589 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 2: know which of these did more. But he's obviously he's 590 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: a very different guy in terms of how he treats 591 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 2: children after the camps, and that's something that really deserves 592 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: to be kind of reemphasized. To continue with Onngres's story, 593 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 2: once some all school games were organized, we played musical chairs. 594 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: A boy I shall call Seymour jumped into a seat 595 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 2: before I could, and from then on until the end 596 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: of the game, which I had to watch from the sidelines, 597 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 2: he silently taunted me, smirking and wiggling his behind in 598 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: time to the music, which bumps in my direction. After 599 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: the game finished, Seymour approached me with that gloating smirk 600 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: still on his face. I said, I wish I could 601 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: chop your head off the councilor promptly told Bettelheim, who 602 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: just as promptly beat me, adding neck chops to his 603 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 2: standard slaps and a denunciatory monologue in case I missed 604 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,720 Speaker 2: the poetic justice of it all. And again, you see, 605 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 2: like pretty normal kid to say something like that, not 606 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: a weird thing. For a kid to say, this is 607 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: a thing where you need to sit both of those 608 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: kids down and dock to them. He like mock cuts 609 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: his head off by hitting him in the neck, which 610 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 2: also you just, I mean, you shouldn't hit kids at all, 611 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 2: but you certainly shouldn't hit children in the neck. 612 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, my dog likes to like walk on me in 613 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 3: the morning, and yeah, when he puts his paw on 614 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: my neck, I'm like, ow, that's such a sensitive Luckily, 615 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 3: until I got this dog, I didn't understand how much 616 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,840 Speaker 3: neck pressure hurts. 617 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like the fucking uh. I mean, we can 618 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: talk about choke chains and the like, which are also 619 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 2: common at the time, but like the kind of immediate 620 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,239 Speaker 2: willingness where he's like, this kid talked about cutting other 621 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 2: kid's head off, Obviously the right thing to do is 622 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: hit him in the neck, you know. Like that's a 623 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 2: very telling logical leap that he makes there. Now, these 624 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 2: stories that Augres tells are very consistent with the stories 625 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 2: multiple other former students give of their time under Bruno's tutelage, 626 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: and they are also they also comport with the stories 627 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 2: of employees who work as teachers and staff members at 628 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 2: the Orthogenic schooling this time. One of those former staff 629 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: members was a guy who wrote about his experiences for 630 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: The Chicago Reader under the pseudonym WB. I find his 631 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 2: account valuable in part because Bruno's friend and defender, Alvin Rosenfeld, 632 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: acknowledges that Bruno used physical violence, but also insists that 633 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: most of the complaints from students, which he views is unfair, 634 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: came from later in Bruno's career, and so he's like, well, 635 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: they were angry because like he was, you know, he 636 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: kind of died before their education could finish. And so 637 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 2: they they, you know, they're they're transmitting feeling their feelings 638 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 2: of abandonment to like claiming he was abusive. And this 639 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: guy's account puts the light of that. For one thing. 640 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: WB comes to work at the school early on in 641 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: Bruno's tutelage there, and he is a World War II 642 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: combat veteran. So this is not a guy who is 643 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 2: inclined to be shocked by violence, right, Like, if this 644 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: guy reacts to your violence, you're really out of fucking pocket, right. Quote. 645 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 2: A number of us wereveterans who had probably seen more 646 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 2: of life by age twenty one than Bettelheim had seen 647 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 2: at age forty. I do disagree with that because he 648 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 2: was in the camps man, but this guy's got definitely 649 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 2: has like a bit of an axe to grind with Bettelheim. 650 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 2: That fact never seemed to penetrate Bettelheim's low threshold of 651 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: awareness of the true nature of the world around him. 652 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: He tried to bully the counselors as much as he 653 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: did the defenseless children. 654 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: In the school. 655 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 2: He was just a bit more circumspect with US veterans. Now. 656 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 2: He notes this guy that most orthogenic school employees were women, 657 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 2: and that is a real thing Bruno does. He likes 658 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 2: to be surrounded by women, and these folks are very 659 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 2: loyal to Bruno. WB describes the female employees at the 660 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 2: school as like his Roman cohorts, So these are like 661 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: his power base, these female counselors, who Rosenfeld is like. 662 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,400 Speaker 2: That's why Bruno had to do all the physical violence 663 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: was so that these women could be free to be 664 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,399 Speaker 2: more nurturing, which is a very odd vibe, but that's 665 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: the way people describe it. Quote and this is from 666 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,399 Speaker 2: w B. The understanding that most of the men had 667 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: was that Bettelheim tried to seduce everyone and too relating 668 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: to him as their therapist. This was a condition of 669 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 2: job tenure. Our general feeling was that most of the 670 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: women accepted this relationship, but we never knew for sure. 671 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 2: Their job tenure was certainly longer than most of the men's. 672 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 2: I would characterize the atmosphere at the Orthogenic School at 673 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 2: that time as the beginnings of a cult, with doctor 674 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: b as the cult leader. And I find that interesting 675 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 2: because he notes accurately, this guy that part of cult 676 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: dynamics is the creation of new vocabulary and the redefinition 677 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 2: of existing vocabulary to create a new reality in which 678 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 2: cult members live under. And this is how WB explains 679 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 2: Bruno's use of terms like emotionally disturbed, autistic, and schizophrenic. 680 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 2: These are not real medical diagnoses, but these are terms 681 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: reinvented by Bruno to create a reality that's convenient to him, right. 682 00:35:57,600 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: And he will say he has an eighty five percent 683 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: success rate in treating schizophrenia and autism, and that eighty 684 00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 2: five percent of the kids that came into his school 685 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: left it without these diagnoses. He's not curing these people. 686 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 2: He is desclaring them to have a thing and then 687 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: declaring them cured when they behave in a way that 688 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: he describes as idealized, right, And that's kind of key 689 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 2: to it, is that he gets described as brilliant for 690 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 2: a while because of this big eighty five percent success rate. 691 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 2: He is the only person judging these kids. 692 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 3: Well, it's I mean, this is like a thing that 693 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 3: happens in society, these like the troubled teen industry, like that. 694 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 3: This is not like an isolated incident of this kind 695 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 3: of group where these kids are declared as so problematic 696 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 3: and then taken into this extreme environment and then you 697 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 3: sort of have a cult like figure at the helm 698 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 3: and all of these employees sort of just like go 699 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 3: along with this, even though it's like it is like 700 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 3: this dynamic that sort of has that continues to sort 701 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 3: of out and so there are definitely like, I'm someone 702 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 3: who finds, like, I don't think it's so wild to 703 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 3: describe things as cults or as they like if they 704 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 3: follow certain you know, uh, descriptors. This this definitely feels 705 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 3: feels rather culty to me. 706 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: If the kool aid bowl fits right. 707 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the difference is that these kids are 708 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 3: not are not members of the cult the way you 709 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 3: would see in other situations. They're they're sort of the 710 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 3: prisoners of the cult. 711 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think WB is trying to describe a 712 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: lot of the employees. 713 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 3: Employees are the members. 714 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 2: Although the financial relationship again and he's like, it's I 715 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 2: don't really know how much did they buy it? Did 716 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 2: they just need the job? 717 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 4: Right? 718 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: Like it was unclear to him and it will be 719 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 2: forever to us. But I do find it noteworthy that 720 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 2: he says this, Bettelheim was a professional success. Why simple 721 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: He defined a child's problem without any meaningful critical peer 722 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 2: review and then proceeded to solve the problem again without 723 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 2: critical review. A generally compliant and emotionally dependent staff then 724 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 2: put their im premature on his self declared and widely 725 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 2: proclaimed success. And yeah, and it's it's. 726 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's creating the rules of the world. 727 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 2: He gets and the world is a lot, it's a 728 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: lot easier. Life is much easier when you get to 729 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 2: do that. Now. While when Bruno directs the Orthogenic School, 730 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: he's also kind of the doctor phil of like the 731 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: forties through the fifties, sixties, you know, to some extent 732 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 2: in like the seventies, and that he's he's a constant 733 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: presence on TV and he is brought in as an 734 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 2: expert on disturbed children when there's a horrible crime, you know, 735 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 2: when there's He's also brought in to talk about concentration 736 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,320 Speaker 2: camps anti Semitism, and this is deeply unfortunate because Bruno 737 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 2: is not really an expert on disturbed children, and he's 738 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 2: increasingly identifies himself as white and identifies his old Jewish 739 00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 2: identity as problematic, and so the fact that he is 740 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 2: a major public figure on all of these things is 741 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 2: a real issue. Near the end of the nineteen forties, 742 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: he's asked to speak at hellel House on modern anti Semitism, 743 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: and he told the assembled almost entirely Jewish audience, anti Semitism. 744 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,480 Speaker 2: Whose fault is it yours? Because you don't assimilate. It's 745 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 2: your fault. If you assimilated, there would be no anti Semitism. 746 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: Why don't you assimilate? Now, people don't take this lying down. 747 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,280 Speaker 2: This is offensive to the audience. 748 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 3: This is like satire, Like holy shit, man, what. 749 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 2: And one member of the audience, Eric Schopter, is like, 750 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 2: wait a second. If you're saying the solution to anti 751 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,960 Speaker 2: Semitism is to Jewishness, what makes you different from an 752 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 2: anti Semite? And Bruno responds, I'm only a doctor prescribing 753 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 2: the cure, not an answer. Well, he is, yeah, that's 754 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 2: that's that's I mean problematic. 755 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 3: I had this great professor in grad school, who's you know, 756 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 3: because psychology is a tricky field, like we are alluding to, 757 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 3: like there can really be an unequal level of power, 758 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 3: and these people that claim to like know everything. And 759 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 3: he was always like, if anyone tells you that they're 760 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 3: certain about anything, like the way he goes on these 761 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 3: TV shows and is like certain about these disturbed children, 762 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:21,879 Speaker 3: do not trust them. 763 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 2: That is very good advice, and it's in particularly in 764 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: Bruno's case because as the years go on, he becomes 765 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 2: one of the first public intellectual experts on autism. Right 766 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven he publishes a book called The 767 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: Empty Fortress, which is one of the first influential and 768 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 2: famous books on the treatment of children with autism in 769 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 2: US history. Now again remind you Brunos, PhD. Is not 770 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: in any relevant medical discipline and that, so far as 771 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: we know, he mostly lied about his psychoanalytic credentials in Austria. 772 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 2: The Empty Fortress, in his book's title, relates to what 773 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 2: Brunos saw as the cause of autism. And I'm going 774 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 2: to quote from a write up by the Auto as 775 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 2: a History Project. Children took shelter there from the cruelty 776 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 2: and indifference of their parents, mothers especially, who were supposed 777 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,800 Speaker 2: to love them but instead denied their humanity. The cost 778 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,759 Speaker 2: was impossibly high. Forced into rational solitude behind walls that 779 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 2: shielded them from the very people whose attention they craved. 780 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 2: Babies were frozen out of normal development. In other words, 781 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 2: he believed autism came from your mom ignoring you. 782 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 3: Right, yep, Wow, that's so original. Yeah, that's like, you know, 783 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 3: out of nowhere, the moms. 784 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 785 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:38,240 Speaker 2: So he saw the primary cause of autism as refrigerator mothers. 786 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 2: These are emotionally cold and distant women. And he again, 787 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 2: he'll describe his mom as one of these later in life, 788 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,399 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, he starts to do it around this time. Now. 789 00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 2: One allegation that you'll find here is that Bruno takes 790 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 2: his mommy issues and turns them into what was for years. 791 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 2: This is never the standard explanation for the origins of 792 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 2: autism in the medical sense, but because of Bruno's prominence, 793 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 2: it's a very common explanation. Right, because people hear this 794 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 2: on TV. They see the book and they're like, oh, okay, 795 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 2: that must be it. Now. Responsible articles today will note 796 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,839 Speaker 2: accurately that this is horseshit. The origins of autism are 797 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: almost certainly genetic and one not caused by your mom 798 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 2: being a refrigerator vaccine. It's very important to note also 799 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 2: not caused by that. 800 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 3: I also feel like historically people often blame schizophrenia on 801 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 3: mothers too. Yes, and it makes sense that those are 802 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 3: the two main things that he's treating. 803 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,040 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And it's also worth noting that autism was 804 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 2: often called childhood schizophrenia at the time too, Like these 805 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 2: are these terms are very much again, I really need 806 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,640 Speaker 2: to re emphasize that. I also should emphasize that even 807 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 2: articles today often say very fucked up things about autism. 808 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 2: I want to read an excerpt from a twenty twenty 809 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 2: one article in the Chicago Tribune about Bruno Bettelheim and 810 00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,200 Speaker 2: about him getting the causes of autism wrong. Quote. Even 811 00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 2: a quick look at children who are abused and neglected 812 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,680 Speaker 2: by parents should make it obvious that autism is a 813 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,319 Speaker 2: completely different kind of problem. Eventually, autism will probably be 814 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,360 Speaker 2: treated with gene therapy or effective medications will be developed 815 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 2: to counter the defect. Now, that's just eugenics, right, that's 816 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,759 Speaker 2: just eugenics that you wrote in twenty twenty one, guy 817 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 2: at the Chicago Tribune, that's just eugenics. 818 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 3: Gosh, call it like explicitly calling your dmail no heh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 819 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,879 Speaker 3: It's a I mean, there continues to be so much 820 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 3: debate about like ABA therapy for children and autism. I'm 821 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,760 Speaker 3: sure you probably in the work you did in special 822 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:50,080 Speaker 3: had experienced a lot of that. And it's the difference 823 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 3: of approaches between we have to change this person to 824 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,160 Speaker 3: interact with the world as we see fit, versus maybe 825 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 3: we allow this person to be who they are and 826 00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 3: create a world where that's okay. 827 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's yeah, this is something that is still developing. 828 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,280 Speaker 2: I want to note I just read that bad article 829 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,359 Speaker 2: and was like, oh my god, man, you're not any 830 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 2: better than Bruno was, dude. I mean, I guess like 831 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 2: this is still a real problem that this podcast is 832 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 2: not going to kind of deal with in all of 833 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 2: the depth that it deserves. But I wanted to make 834 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 2: a note of that. In his piece for Commentary magazine, 835 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 2: Ronald Andres makes a note that even though the state 836 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 2: of autism treatment and knowledge was more primitive at the time, 837 00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,400 Speaker 2: there was ample evidence in the early days to suggest 838 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 2: that Bruno's empty fortress hypothesis was nonsense. Quote. In fact, 839 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 2: there was always evidence that autism may be at least 840 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,759 Speaker 2: partially neurological. Everyone before Bettelheim believed it was. No one 841 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,800 Speaker 2: but Bettelheim and his most fervent followers ever believed otherwise. 842 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 2: And even on Bettelheim's assumption that the origins were psychological 843 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 2: rather than biological or neurological, well, why go on as 844 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 2: he did to accuse parents of such crimes, such schizophrenic symptoms, 845 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 2: as wishing their child did not exist. Bettelheim made an 846 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 2: art of accusation. He did not sort of blame victims. 847 00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 2: He set himself up as their special prosecutor. Right yeah, 848 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 2: which is an interesting and a damning way to describe that. 849 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,440 Speaker 2: I think this is our second ad break, so let's 850 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 2: just go for it. We're back. So it has been 851 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 2: noted that Bruno's victim blaming of concentration camp attornees bore 852 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:36,200 Speaker 2: more than a little resemblance to the way he talked 853 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:39,920 Speaker 2: about the parents of quote unquote autistic children. The identification 854 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 2: of the aggressor, which he saw as core to the 855 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 2: behavior of inmates, is also what he believed went on 856 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 2: with autism. Kids with so called refrigerator moms aped that 857 00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 2: behavior and locked away their emotions from the empty fortress. 858 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,239 Speaker 2: This is Bruno was writing here. I had experienced being 859 00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 2: at the mercy of forces that seemed beyond one's ability 860 00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 2: to influence, and with no knowledge of whether or when 861 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,000 Speaker 2: the experience would end. Of living isolated from family and friends, 862 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,000 Speaker 2: of being severely restricted, and the sending and receiving of information. 863 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,399 Speaker 2: Perhaps this sudden reversal helped me first to understand how 864 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 2: the camps could destroy personality, and later to resume with 865 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 2: I hope greater insights and empathy. My earlier task that 866 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,160 Speaker 2: of creating a milieu which would favor the reconstruction of personality. 867 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 2: Right And this is him literally being like the camps 868 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 2: taught me that I could cure autism by making my 869 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:29,399 Speaker 2: own camp. Right Now. Violence was not his only tool 870 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 2: for reconstructing personality, but insults and mockery were among his 871 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 2: go to tactics, and behind every effort he made was 872 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 2: the promise of violence. This is why he pushed parents 873 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,720 Speaker 2: to enroll their children and his facility for the entirety 874 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,760 Speaker 2: of their childhood. He needed the privacy of total control 875 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,359 Speaker 2: to ensure he was not stopped. From that write up 876 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 2: and Disability Studies Quarterly. One former student called it a 877 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,319 Speaker 2: dumping ground for young people who were different in some 878 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 2: way or who for whatever reason, didn't match their parents' expectations. 879 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,399 Speaker 2: Bettelheim was known to slap punched children. He would often 880 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 2: tell his students that they were at the Orthogenic School 881 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,560 Speaker 2: because their parents couldn't stand them. He called them megalomaniacs 882 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 2: and neurotics and forced them into uncomfortable or violent situations 883 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,800 Speaker 2: against their will. Children were expected to shower naked in 884 00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 2: front of the staff and one another throughout their stay, 885 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,200 Speaker 2: regardless of age or comfort level, and many students and 886 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 2: staff were physically and sexually abused. Jacqueline Sanders worked for 887 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:27,440 Speaker 2: Bettelheim for thirteen years and became the director of the 888 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,360 Speaker 2: school after Bettlheim left. She rights we became the abusers 889 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 2: of abused children. 890 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 3: I mean sort of going back to what we were saying, 891 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,960 Speaker 3: like that the victims are not just the kids there, 892 00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 3: it's probably also the staff that are sort of in 893 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 3: like under this man's control and manipulation. And it's I mean, 894 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:53,800 Speaker 3: it's a mini little hell that he has been built. 895 00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,719 Speaker 2: He has created a little hell for kids and for 896 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 2: staff members. Yeah yeah. Sudents at this school were expected 897 00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 2: to work towards admission to higher education, and the school 898 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,800 Speaker 2: had an excellent record for this, which has led some defenders, 899 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 2: including former students, who like most will say his violence 900 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 2: was unacceptable, to declare the school overall still a success. 901 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,120 Speaker 2: And this brings me to the book The Creation of 902 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 2: Doctor b by Richard Pollock. One criticism that he will 903 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,320 Speaker 2: get from Bettelheim's defenders is that, given his own history 904 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:27,960 Speaker 2: with the school, he can't be objective. You see, Richard's brother, Stevens, 905 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,720 Speaker 2: started out as a day student at the Orthogenic School, 906 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 2: but Bettelheim insisted, as always, that he come to live 907 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,719 Speaker 2: there full time. Richard writes, over the months, he made 908 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 2: fewer and fewer visits home, becoming from me a kind 909 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:43,600 Speaker 2: of spectral sibling, even before his death in nineteen forty eight. Now, 910 00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 2: Stephen's death occurred when he was away from the school 911 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 2: on a rare holiday visit with his family. He and 912 00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 2: his brother were staying at a farm owned by a 913 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,360 Speaker 2: friend of the family, and he fell through a hayshoe 914 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 2: several stories to the ground and died on impact. If 915 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,600 Speaker 2: you grew up on a farm, you immediately are like, oh, yeah, 916 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 2: that's absolutely how a little kid could do. Right. It's 917 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,279 Speaker 2: one of the most dangerous things in any kind of farm, 918 00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 2: as a hayshoot. It's just this hole that's going to 919 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: be covered by hay a lot of the time, and 920 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 2: if you go through it, you can fall quite a distance. 921 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:17,359 Speaker 2: So Bettelheim refuses to accept Oh, a tragic accident occurred, right. 922 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 2: He blames Rick and Stephen's parents for killing their son 923 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 2: because they wanted to spend time with him and they 924 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 2: should have just left him at the school full time. 925 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 2: Now decades later, Bettelheim still holds onto this grudge because 926 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,920 Speaker 2: in the late night again this happens in forty eight. 927 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,720 Speaker 2: In the late nineteen eighties, Pollock, who's writing a book 928 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,439 Speaker 2: about Bettelheim, calls on him, and Bettelheim still remembers these 929 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 2: parents and is still angry at them. Quote my father, 930 00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,640 Speaker 2: he dismissed his crude and somewhat simple minded, a Schlemiel 931 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 2: who played the bills and stayed out of emotional problems. 932 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 2: My mother was the villain. He said she paraded as 933 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 2: a saint and a martyr, when in fact she was 934 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 2: almost entirely responsible for my brother's problems with astonishing anger. 935 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,040 Speaker 2: He said she had rejected Stephen at birth and that 936 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,280 Speaker 2: to cope with this locke out, he had developed pseudo 937 00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 2: feeble mindedness. He said that my brother was a lovely 938 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:07,320 Speaker 2: child who manifested a sensitivity my mother wished she possessed, 939 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 2: and he castigated her for never conceding that she was 940 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 2: responsible for Steven's dispress distress and for insisting against the 941 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,640 Speaker 2: school's wishes that he'd be allowed periodic home visits. 942 00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,560 Speaker 3: It's interesting that everyone has the exact same problem. 943 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 2: That everyone has the problem. 944 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 3: Is the same. Yeah, and it's weird that it's also 945 00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,080 Speaker 3: the damanic he came from. 946 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean their dad was like his dad, Their 947 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:40,640 Speaker 2: mom was like his mom. Wild stuff, so Bettelheim declares 948 00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,200 Speaker 2: in this conversation with no evidence, No, your brother committed 949 00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,120 Speaker 2: suicide because he was so unhappy with your parent. Again, 950 00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,399 Speaker 2: he fell through a hayshoot man. He insinuated the fact 951 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 2: that their mom worked full time was part of why 952 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,640 Speaker 2: their brother killed himself, and he ranted, what is it 953 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 2: about these Jewish mothers, mister Polock and his book. Richard 954 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 2: continued in nineteen fifty six, I would discover he had 955 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 2: written that the school had warned my parents that a 956 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,399 Speaker 2: home visit for Stephen was ill advised because he might 957 00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,400 Speaker 2: harm himself. Despite our objection, the visit took place, and 958 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,279 Speaker 2: the child died in a carefully contrived accident. Bettelheim told 959 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:19,120 Speaker 2: me with other utter confidence that Stephen had once purposefully 960 00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,799 Speaker 2: fallen out of a speedboat near the propellers, and it 961 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:23,520 Speaker 2: was only a matter of time before he found a 962 00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:25,879 Speaker 2: situation like the loft in which his efforts at killing 963 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 2: himself would succeed. In fact, my brother had never fallen 964 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 2: out of any boat, And that anecdote really says a 965 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,560 Speaker 2: lot that he just will lie to this kid about 966 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,120 Speaker 2: his brother's death for no reason, not for no reason, 967 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:42,840 Speaker 2: because inventing fiction lets him redefine reality, right, And that's 968 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 2: the essence of his pedagogy, right, is you get to 969 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,960 Speaker 2: define the reality for these children and thus of the world. 970 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 2: Like that's how maybe you know this is to some 971 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 2: extent him taking back control over the world, which was 972 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:02,800 Speaker 2: so chaotic for him, But I don't know, Like that's fascinating. 973 00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 3: If something doesn't fit his narrative, then he will create 974 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,920 Speaker 3: the details to make it fit exactly, which is a 975 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 3: really great strategy for you, but it's for him. Yeah. 976 00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,680 Speaker 3: It also allows him to never have to confront any 977 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:20,680 Speaker 3: of his own demons. 978 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,120 Speaker 2: No, and he's such a so. During the Vietnam War, 979 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 2: Bruno makes a name for himself as an anti anti 980 00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:32,760 Speaker 2: war activist, and confoundingly, he describes the kids protesting against 981 00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 2: Vietnam as neo Nazis who were very sick and paranoias, 982 00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 2: trying to beat down father to show they are a 983 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 2: big boy. Oh my god, I don't know if that's 984 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,799 Speaker 2: what's to me. They don't want to get drafted and 985 00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:46,640 Speaker 2: go die and denanying man. 986 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:52,719 Speaker 3: Like I feel like this is like should be like 987 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,719 Speaker 3: a learning like a learning moment about these people that 988 00:52:56,840 --> 00:53:00,200 Speaker 3: take over our media today. Yeah, Like there are so 989 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:04,239 Speaker 3: many people like with these kinds of characteristics and these 990 00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:10,120 Speaker 3: really abhorrent personalities who people fall for, yep, and to 991 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,920 Speaker 3: become like really influential and claim to have a lot 992 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,560 Speaker 3: of knowledge around wellness and psychology and the right way 993 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 3: to be a person. And it's just a reminder to 994 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,120 Speaker 3: be more skeptical of what people present to you as 995 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:25,560 Speaker 3: the truth. 996 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,879 Speaker 2: Maybe don't trust those people. Yeah, in nineteen seventy six, 997 00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,520 Speaker 2: you had asked it in part one, when does the 998 00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 2: backlash against a lot of what he's saying about the Holocaust? 999 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:36,560 Speaker 1: Again? 1000 00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,960 Speaker 2: And as I said it, there's some immediately, but kind 1001 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,200 Speaker 2: of there's a big chunk of academic backlash starts in 1002 00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 2: the late seventies when American Holocaust scholar Terence de Prez 1003 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 2: writes a book about the survivors of death camps and 1004 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 2: concentration camps. His book, The Survivor was partly a broadside 1005 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 2: against the misinformation Bettelheim had contributed to the discussion, and 1006 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,720 Speaker 2: I want to quote now from an article by Paul Rosen. 1007 00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 2: Throughout The Survivor criticized Bettelheim for having supposed that it 1008 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,240 Speaker 2: was correct to have thought that prisoners ever regressed to infantilism. 1009 00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,400 Speaker 2: Depress believed that the survivors should be viewed as reminders 1010 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,440 Speaker 2: not of human weaknesses, but of evil circumstances that were 1011 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 2: objectively powerful. Both the Nazis and Stalin's regime subjected prisoners 1012 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,120 Speaker 2: to filth for the sake of humiliation and debasement. Depress 1013 00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 2: argued that prisoner behavior in response to such circumstances was 1014 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:30,920 Speaker 2: not childish, but rather a heroic response to dreadful necessities. 1015 00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,720 Speaker 2: He cited one camp where the inmates burned it down 1016 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 2: and found throughout the literature instances of people who somehow 1017 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,760 Speaker 2: managed to maintain their inward sanctity. Resistance took subtle shapes, 1018 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,839 Speaker 2: and Dupress explored the way human dignity endured and the 1019 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 2: form of freedom from the entire control by external forces. 1020 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 2: Survivors helped one another, engaged in acts of sabotage, and 1021 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,960 Speaker 2: from Bukenwald made contact with the Allies for a bombing 1022 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,040 Speaker 2: rate on ss parts of the camp. Depress pointed out 1023 00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,000 Speaker 2: that Bettelheim was imprisoned during a special period when criminals 1024 00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,040 Speaker 2: among inmates wielded power. He disputed Bettelheim's notion that social 1025 00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:07,200 Speaker 2: bonding among prisoners was absent, nor was it true. Depress 1026 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,560 Speaker 2: argued that they did not hate their repressors and did 1027 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,680 Speaker 2: not sometimes revolt. According to Depress, Bettelheim had felt superior 1028 00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,720 Speaker 2: to his fellow's sufferers, and his account was factually marred 1029 00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:20,040 Speaker 2: by his egotistical obsession with autonomy that blinded him to 1030 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:22,560 Speaker 2: the extent of the mutual support that existed within. 1031 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:23,239 Speaker 1: The camps. 1032 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:25,680 Speaker 3: Sounds right to me. 1033 00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:30,440 Speaker 2: Sounds accurate to me now. Bettelheim responds with an article 1034 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 2: in The New Yorker arguing that Press's Depress's book missed 1035 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,680 Speaker 2: the realities of the experience, and Depressed responds a little 1036 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,480 Speaker 2: later with an article of his own called the Bettelheim Problem. 1037 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,360 Speaker 2: He links Bruno's conclusions about the causes of autism and 1038 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,120 Speaker 2: schizophrenia to his supposed observations about camp life. In a way, 1039 00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,880 Speaker 2: he seemed to be taking out his righteous anger on 1040 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:53,200 Speaker 2: the ss guards on the parents of his students. The 1041 00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,000 Speaker 2: ultimate product of this was that these people who lived 1042 00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,800 Speaker 2: for years without their children had to do so believing 1043 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,879 Speaker 2: they were the ultimate cause of their children's problems, right, 1044 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,719 Speaker 2: which is bad. 1045 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:10,680 Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty And also it's also a great manipulation tactic, 1046 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,400 Speaker 3: right because as soon as you're like, hey, maybe I 1047 00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,319 Speaker 3: shouldn't let this kid be in the school for their 1048 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:20,440 Speaker 3: entire childhood, it's like, oh, well, actually, though I'm the 1049 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 3: person causing them harm, if I were to reunite with 1050 00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:24,480 Speaker 3: my kid, I'd actually be. 1051 00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 2: Doing them more harm, right, right, exactly, that's a very 1052 00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:29,680 Speaker 2: good point, right, And that's such a key part of 1053 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:31,760 Speaker 2: what Beddlheim is saying is that like you have fucked 1054 00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:35,360 Speaker 2: your kids up. You gave them these conditions. Only I 1055 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:36,640 Speaker 2: can fix them, right, it. 1056 00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 3: Becomes dangerous for you to be involved in their life. 1057 00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,800 Speaker 2: And that's why when this mom, when Richard his biographer's 1058 00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,239 Speaker 2: like mom, insists that her other son at least gets 1059 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:50,080 Speaker 2: sometime with the family, Bruno has to turn around and 1060 00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,160 Speaker 2: make that kid's death be caused by thealy right. In 1061 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,600 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, Bruno's wife, Truday passed on, despite his 1062 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,400 Speaker 2: early some early infidelities, who was by all accounts dedicated 1063 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,960 Speaker 2: to his wife, and most people who knew him will 1064 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,080 Speaker 2: say that her passing broke him. He was by this 1065 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:08,680 Speaker 2: point an old man in poor health, and so on 1066 00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 2: March thirteenth, nineteen ninety, Bruno Bettelheim took his own life. Now, 1067 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,920 Speaker 2: the fact that he committed suicide was just about the 1068 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,280 Speaker 2: most understanding thing he ever did. He was old, he 1069 00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,280 Speaker 2: was ailing. He would write a lot about the fact 1070 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,120 Speaker 2: that he no longer felt he could be of service 1071 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 2: to society, and so I don't have trouble understanding why 1072 00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:29,840 Speaker 2: he did this, But the fact that he killed himself 1073 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,840 Speaker 2: sent a shock through the psychoanalytic and educational community. And 1074 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,920 Speaker 2: while the criticism of him for committing suicide was unjust, 1075 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:38,840 Speaker 2: which is a big part of the initial reaction to 1076 00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:41,200 Speaker 2: his death as people being like, oh, well, the fact 1077 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,480 Speaker 2: that a psychoanalyst would do this must have meant that 1078 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 2: he was never He wasn't as healthy as he portrayed 1079 00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:50,360 Speaker 2: himself as being, and that's bad. That's a bad way 1080 00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 2: to look at the suicide of an old man whose 1081 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:55,080 Speaker 2: wife just died and he was in poor health. It 1082 00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:58,600 Speaker 2: also weirdly opens up the floodgates for the survivors of 1083 00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,200 Speaker 2: his teaching practices to talk about what they had endured. 1084 00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:03,400 Speaker 2: And that's why things are kind of messy, is that 1085 00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 2: the first wave of criticism of Bettelheim happens alongside people 1086 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:11,720 Speaker 2: criticizing him for committing suicide, which is messy, But you 1087 00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:14,320 Speaker 2: do get a lot of these survivors start talking in 1088 00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,680 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety and continue talking up to the present day. 1089 00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,800 Speaker 2: Like there's again some of the writings that I found 1090 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,280 Speaker 2: on this was like much more recent as a result 1091 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,120 Speaker 2: of the fact that, like, you know, people are still 1092 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,240 Speaker 2: processing this. There's folks who initially were like well, but no, 1093 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,720 Speaker 2: the school was a good thing for me overall, who 1094 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,479 Speaker 2: kind of come to different conclusions. There's also still plenty 1095 00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 2: of schools who were like, yeah, it was brutal at times, 1096 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,480 Speaker 2: but students who were like, it was brutal, but it 1097 00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,680 Speaker 2: prepared me for success. I'm not going to judge how 1098 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 2: anybody interprets their own experience at this school. I will 1099 00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,120 Speaker 2: say one of the things people say for Bruno, which 1100 00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 2: is that so many of his graduates went on to 1101 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 2: have excellent careers. Well yeah, but also all their parents 1102 00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,040 Speaker 2: were super rich. I don't know if we give that 1103 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 2: to Bruno a right, like their parents were all rich 1104 00:58:57,920 --> 00:58:59,520 Speaker 2: as hell. Maybe that had more to do with it. 1105 00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:04,120 Speaker 2: I don't know, like not to take anything away from them, 1106 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:05,480 Speaker 2: but I don't. I just don't know that I give 1107 00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:06,160 Speaker 2: that to Bruno. 1108 00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 3: Like I also, I'm not surprised like you that he 1109 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,960 Speaker 3: died by suicide, because I don't think he was mentally 1110 00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,640 Speaker 3: well his whole life. No, God, no, I don't think 1111 00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,240 Speaker 3: that he was ever at peace with himself or had 1112 00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,960 Speaker 3: like the ability to emotionally regulate or you know, live 1113 00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,880 Speaker 3: a values driven life like I think he wasn't in 1114 00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 3: constant turmoil since his childhood and so unfort the the 1115 00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,400 Speaker 3: outcome is not is not so shocking to me? 1116 00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:46,640 Speaker 2: Nope, nope, not at all. Well that's the story, uh 1117 00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:47,480 Speaker 2: how we feel it. 1118 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,840 Speaker 3: Oh, I guess I'll do my annoying mental health advocacy 1119 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,840 Speaker 3: thing of of saying I veer away from using the 1120 00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,760 Speaker 3: term committed suicide because it implies that it's a crime, 1121 01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,520 Speaker 3: and so I prefer like the language of died by suicide. Sure, 1122 01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,600 Speaker 3: just but you know, who would I be for not 1123 01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:13,840 Speaker 3: someone to say that. 1124 01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,320 Speaker 2: You know, And honestly, like, uh, it's interesting because I 1125 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 2: hadn't I never really thought about the fact that like, yeah, 1126 01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 2: using the term committing does imply that, like there's a crime. 1127 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,960 Speaker 2: That's because we only use that word, right, you wouldn't say, 1128 01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 2: like I committed lunch today, right, Yeah, it's just so normalized. 1129 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:32,200 Speaker 4: Yeah. 1130 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,720 Speaker 2: Interesting, yeah, yeah. 1131 01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:37,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's like it's interesting like as a writer and 1132 01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,160 Speaker 3: as a also then it's someone in the mental health field. 1133 01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:43,040 Speaker 3: I'm always thinking about like the impact of the word 1134 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,600 Speaker 3: choice that we use and like how how we are 1135 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,600 Speaker 3: actually like subtly sending these like messages to ourselves and 1136 01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:52,920 Speaker 3: to other people. But then sometimes I'll be like I 1137 01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,160 Speaker 3: don't get why that's the problem. But then you listen 1138 01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,360 Speaker 3: to someone where it's you know, their point of view, 1139 01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,520 Speaker 3: and it's like, okay, well even if I still don't 1140 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,160 Speaker 3: get it all, I'll make the change. But that the phrase, 1141 01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,000 Speaker 3: when someone explained it to me in that way of 1142 01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,520 Speaker 3: that it's like a crime, then it finally clicked for 1143 01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 3: me about why I don't want to use that term anymore. 1144 01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, I mean I think that makes a 1145 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:18,919 Speaker 2: lot of sense. And yeah, I it's like the most 1146 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:22,040 Speaker 2: understandable like thing about his whole story, Like there's so 1147 01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:23,760 Speaker 2: many choices that he makes that it's like, well, I 1148 01:01:23,760 --> 01:01:27,400 Speaker 2: don't really get where that comes from. Like it's interesting 1149 01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,960 Speaker 2: that the first thing he gets criticized for is that 1150 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:36,240 Speaker 2: and not anything about like how he treated children or whatever. Yeah, it's. 1151 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 3: It just feels like a very like pertinent topic to 1152 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:45,920 Speaker 3: be talking about. Like I think that there's a sense that, 1153 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,920 Speaker 3: like he died in nineteen ninety, we have like a 1154 01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,280 Speaker 3: different understanding of autism now. But I feel like we're 1155 01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:57,040 Speaker 3: on a cusp of like of really not having made 1156 01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 3: the progress that we think we have made in psychology 1157 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:03,080 Speaker 3: and like moonless culture, and so it's like a reminder 1158 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,720 Speaker 3: to be like very vigilant about like falling for these 1159 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:11,600 Speaker 3: these people who have such extreme takes and claim to 1160 01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,400 Speaker 3: have the only way to handle things and are very 1161 01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:20,439 Speaker 3: victim blaming and you know, separate, separate people as a 1162 01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:21,760 Speaker 3: means of control. 1163 01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:27,120 Speaker 2: Especially now like we are heading into a whole new 1164 01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:32,120 Speaker 2: golden era. For for that. Anyway, you got any anything 1165 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:33,680 Speaker 2: you want to plug kind of at the end here. 1166 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,840 Speaker 3: Well you have to keep going. So if you're if 1167 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:40,000 Speaker 3: you're in the mood for something light. I have a 1168 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,840 Speaker 3: rom com novel called Save the Date coming out April 1169 01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,600 Speaker 3: eighth that you can order wherever books are sold. It's 1170 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,320 Speaker 3: a kind of auto fiction based off of my own 1171 01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,680 Speaker 3: broken engagement and what could have happened if I had 1172 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,560 Speaker 3: tried to find a new groom in time for my 1173 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:56,400 Speaker 3: original wedding. I didn't do that in real life, but 1174 01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,440 Speaker 3: it's based off a joke my dad made and I 1175 01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,440 Speaker 3: turned into a book. And then I also have my 1176 01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:04,280 Speaker 3: self stack called Emotional Support Lady, which is all about 1177 01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,480 Speaker 3: mental health and you can also hire me as a 1178 01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:10,600 Speaker 3: relationship coach for both individuals and couples. 1179 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome, awesome, Well, thank you so much for being 1180 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,560 Speaker 2: on today. This was a hard one to listen to. 1181 01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:16,640 Speaker 1: It. 1182 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,840 Speaker 2: I appreciate yeah, you doing it so much to try 1183 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 2: and like explain, yeah, what what was happening here? Yeah? 1184 01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,600 Speaker 3: Right, and how and how long it took for society 1185 01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:27,000 Speaker 3: to catch up to the lies? 1186 01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,000 Speaker 2: Geez, like half a century literally almost half. 1187 01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, even though even though the people he was talking 1188 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,600 Speaker 3: about were saying this is wrong while was happening. Yeah, 1189 01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:38,600 Speaker 3: and that wasn't enough. 1190 01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:43,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well that's the episode. Everybody, Thank you 1191 01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,920 Speaker 2: so much, and thank you Allison. All right, have a 1192 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:47,400 Speaker 2: good week. 1193 01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:53,360 Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 1194 01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:56,360 Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 1195 01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,960 Speaker 4: Zonemedia dot com or check us out on the Iheartrate, 1196 01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,160 Speaker 4: you app hop a podcasts or wherever. 1197 01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,880 Speaker 3: You get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available 1198 01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:08,400 Speaker 3: on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. 1199 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:12,480 Speaker 4: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind 1200 01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:13,160 Speaker 4: the Bastards.