Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast
Speaker 1: I'm at a Turkey Andy Keener, joined by staff writer
Speaker 1: Jane mcgrad Taylor Kansas. Hey, Jane, So, we spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time on the podcast talking about ancient civilizations
Speaker 1: and societies of the past, and wars and medieval torture
Speaker 1: devices and Thomas Jefferson. But something we don't get around
Speaker 1: too as often is very important women in history. And
Speaker 1: we actually had a listener email us and she wrote,
Speaker 1: first off, I'd like to say I love your podcast,
Speaker 1: thank you very much. Anyway, I would like to hear
Speaker 1: about some more famous women in history. I have a
Speaker 1: couple of ideas, but someone who really sticks out to
Speaker 1: me that would be fun is Joan of Arc. She's
Speaker 1: always so shrouded in mystery and I would really love
Speaker 1: to hear your take on it. If you had to
Speaker 1: do one, I would definitely see her. And that came
Speaker 1: from t Chica and she also said she wanted to
Speaker 1: hear about Anny. Luckily, Jane Adams said in her Truth
Speaker 1: and a couple of other very exciting women. And not
Speaker 1: only are we going to cover Joan of Arc. But
Speaker 1: just to give you guys a little sneak peak of
Speaker 1: what's coming up down the line, we're gonna be talking
Speaker 1: about women in ancient Egypt and Betsy Ross and a
Speaker 1: few other surprises. Yeah, and Joan of Arc is going
Speaker 1: to be one of the most popular I think. I
Speaker 1: think maybe I remember another fan asking for her as well,
Speaker 1: but you know, always a popular choice. To give you
Speaker 1: some context, she lived from fourteen twelve to fourteen thirty one,
Speaker 1: and if you haven't noticed, that's a pretty short amount
Speaker 1: of time. She didn't live very long. If you don't
Speaker 1: want to do the math real quick, that means she
Speaker 1: was only about nineteen when she died, and she that's
Speaker 1: when she was put to death for heresy. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: that's the end of a very long and complicated life story.
Speaker 1: So I think to get everyone started, we'll sort of
Speaker 1: set up what's brewing over in Europe and more specifically
Speaker 1: in France and England, because Joe was known for leading
Speaker 1: the Stage of Orleans, which occurred in fourteen twenty nine,
Speaker 1: but as you may remember from one of our earlier podcasts,
Speaker 1: the Inquisition started raging much earlier than that, and in
Speaker 1: twelve thirty one, uh, they started trying to phase out
Speaker 1: heretics from the Catholic Church, and as events transpired, we
Speaker 1: had the Hundred Years War startup, and that's where things
Speaker 1: got really sticky with the Church and then with France
Speaker 1: and England fighting for the throne. And I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: Jane give you guys some background on that. So the
Speaker 1: Hundred Years War was actually a little bit longer than
Speaker 1: there was a hundred and sixteen years that it lasted,
Speaker 1: and we lump it together called the Hundred Years War.
Speaker 1: It was really a series of conflicts, as you might guess,
Speaker 1: it was treaties and broken treaties that lasted for this
Speaker 1: period between about thirteen thirty seven and fourteen fifty three
Speaker 1: between France and England. It's really sticky issues, really complicated.
Speaker 1: But it goes back to actually ten sixty six when William,
Speaker 1: who was the Duke of Normandy at the time, defeated
Speaker 1: the King of England and took a for England. So
Speaker 1: that meant that the King of England held territory in France.
Speaker 1: And by the fourteenth century those territories, those French territories,
Speaker 1: were still in dispute and things had gotten even stickier
Speaker 1: to Jane because people had been inter marrying between France
Speaker 1: and England, and so when you talk about uh lineage
Speaker 1: and the heir to certain seats, it's really complicated. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In thirteen o nine, the King of England's son married
Speaker 1: the daughter of the King of France, and the result
Speaker 1: of that marriage was Edward the third, I believe, and
Speaker 1: so he had a claim to the French throne in
Speaker 1: thirteen twenty eight, which happened to be the year that
Speaker 1: the French King, Charles the fourth died without a clear air,
Speaker 1: so as you can see it is it's a huge mess.
Speaker 1: And I fast forward to about fourteen fifteen you have
Speaker 1: English King Henry the fifth, and if you've ever read
Speaker 1: that Shakespeare one of the best Shakespeare plays, I think
Speaker 1: you know a little bit about the Battle of Aaron Court, etcetera,
Speaker 1: and how he was very victorious and eventually he invaded
Speaker 1: France and got them to sign the Treaty of Tis,
Speaker 1: which agreed that Henry would get to the French throne
Speaker 1: after the sitting king, Charles the sixth died, So it
Speaker 1: seemed like a fair compromise, but it was made a
Speaker 1: void when both of them died. Yeah, they both died
Speaker 1: in fourteen twenty two. Henry died first and Charles died
Speaker 1: a few weeks afterwards. So this complicated the question of
Speaker 1: who would get the French throne. Basically you have the
Speaker 1: issue of the French people didn't like, they didn't support
Speaker 1: the Treaty of Trois, and they supported Charles the seventh
Speaker 1: of the king's son to become king. And also was
Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that Henry the fifth heir son
Speaker 1: was only a baby when he died, so the baby
Speaker 1: basically had according to the treaty, the baby was now
Speaker 1: king of both England and France, and France was not
Speaker 1: happy with this, and so Charles the seventh that Dauphin
Speaker 1: he was actually living in exile in Nyon, and that
Speaker 1: is where he would meet Joan of ar Ark. And
Speaker 1: if we flashed back to Joan, when she was at
Speaker 1: the age of thirteen, she started hearing voices, and she
Speaker 1: was a peasant girl from very humble, humble origins. I
Speaker 1: think she was illiterate, and she prided herself, I think,
Speaker 1: on being a good daughter and a good servant to God.
Speaker 1: And one day she was working outside and she started
Speaker 1: hearing people talking to her and she was able to
Speaker 1: identify the voices as coming from St. Michael, St. Margaret
Speaker 1: and St. Catherine. And we should know it also that
Speaker 1: um I was reading about Joan in the context of
Speaker 1: France at this time, that French France was Catholic, but
Speaker 1: they were very mystic believers in France, and so they
Speaker 1: put a lot of stock into these visions, in these
Speaker 1: divine signs. So obviously Joan wouldn't buy into it very quickly,
Speaker 1: and she took it to heart. And at first I
Speaker 1: don't think the directions were too complicated coming from the voices,
Speaker 1: things like be a good daughter, be a eating into
Speaker 1: your family, do a good job with your chores, and
Speaker 1: there seemed like, you know, good comments sense things that
Speaker 1: most of us probably got from watching Sesame Street when
Speaker 1: we were younger. But then the voices became a little
Speaker 1: bit more I guess, fervent, and the messages were much
Speaker 1: more poignant. They started telling her that she needed to
Speaker 1: cut her hair short and start wearing men's garb, and
Speaker 1: that eventually her calling was that she was going to
Speaker 1: get her own military troops and she was going to
Speaker 1: help lead the French to victory over the English and
Speaker 1: put Charles the seventh on his rifle place on the throne,
Speaker 1: And like Jane was saying, people in France bought into
Speaker 1: the idea of of mysical visions and dreams. And Jones's
Speaker 1: own father started having dreams around this time too that
Speaker 1: his daughter was going to run away, so he was
Speaker 1: ensuring that his sons were watching her to make sure
Speaker 1: she wasn't flaeing from home. But she did. Yeah, she
Speaker 1: thought she was hearing signs from God. And God tells
Speaker 1: you to leave. You know, you leave, You've cut your hair,
Speaker 1: and you get out of dodge. So she left to
Speaker 1: seek out Charles the seventh. She arrived at his court
Speaker 1: and after a couple of days she was granted permission
Speaker 1: to see him. But even then when she was going
Speaker 1: into permission, she was there at the court and Charles
Speaker 1: the seventh decided to disguise himself, but interestingly, Joan recognized
Speaker 1: him immediately, which sort of wants the idea that she
Speaker 1: was sent from God, right, And I'm trying to put
Speaker 1: myself in charles place and really think about this. Here
Speaker 1: is a very young girl who is wearing men's clothes.
Speaker 1: She's got short hair. It's very unusual for the times
Speaker 1: that a cross dressing girl would come to court and
Speaker 1: seek out rather forcefully the Dauphin. It just seems a
Speaker 1: little bit um, what's the word I'm looking for? A
Speaker 1: little uh? She bizar, you know, who does she think
Speaker 1: she has defined me? And so he really wanted to
Speaker 1: be able to trust her if she was who she
Speaker 1: said she was. And after she located him in a
Speaker 1: crowd full of people had never seen him before, maybe
Speaker 1: never even seen a likeness of him or what of
Speaker 1: him at that age, she told him also a secret
Speaker 1: about himself that no one else would know, and supposedly
Speaker 1: to this day, we still don't know what that secret is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. Though. Um I read that his story and
Speaker 1: speculated at least that the secret that that she said
Speaker 1: had to do with his legitimacy. He suspected that he
Speaker 1: was an illegitimate child and uh and Joan sort of
Speaker 1: put an end to this to this question from divine sources. Well,
Speaker 1: if that is in fact the secret that she told
Speaker 1: and she was able to put his mind at ease,
Speaker 1: then we can understand why he put full trust in
Speaker 1: her and gave her her own troops and made her
Speaker 1: captain in the French army and she was sent to Orleans,
Speaker 1: and before he actually put her on the battlefield, he
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that he wasn't aligning himself with
Speaker 1: some sort of sorceress. So he had her questioned by
Speaker 1: a panel of clergy and they said she was legit.
Speaker 1: She's not a witch. She probably is hearing these voices
Speaker 1: from saints and she is sent by God. Yeah. One
Speaker 1: curious thing that they during this inquisition, well was initial
Speaker 1: questioning of whether she was actually sent from God, was
Speaker 1: that they had women actually physically examined her and see
Speaker 1: if she was a virgin, and they found that she was,
Speaker 1: and so that concluded to them that she couldn't have
Speaker 1: been in cohorts with the devil. So by this time,
Speaker 1: if you're not a huge fan of Down, hold on
Speaker 1: because there's more. And I'm a huge fan because I
Speaker 1: think it takes a lot of bravery and guts to
Speaker 1: follow through on these voices that you're hearing and to
Speaker 1: put yourself through that kind of rigorous examination. I mean,
Speaker 1: you really are putting yourself on the line. And can
Speaker 1: you imagine what the men in the military must have
Speaker 1: thought when a sixteen year old girl was put in
Speaker 1: front of them and said that she was going to
Speaker 1: be there later. Yeah. One story I read about that
Speaker 1: was that soldiers were convinced that she was sent from
Speaker 1: God because at one point when she was wounded in battle,
Speaker 1: they saw part of her naked body and they weren't
Speaker 1: taken by desire or anything, and they thought this was
Speaker 1: sort of God, you know, shielding them from sexual advances
Speaker 1: on her. And that was a problem that would emerge
Speaker 1: later in her life. But the soldier and as a captain,
Speaker 1: really she proved that she was a very, very good,
Speaker 1: good fighter, and she had the sword that was given
Speaker 1: to her, and sort of an Arthur like way, the
Speaker 1: voices told her that before she went into battle, there
Speaker 1: would be a sword for her hidden behind an altar
Speaker 1: of a church, and it would be covered in rust
Speaker 1: and carved with five different crosses. And they sent some
Speaker 1: people out to go fetch the sword, and sure enough
Speaker 1: I was there, and she wiped off the rest and
Speaker 1: she was ready for the battlefield and with her miraculous sword.
Speaker 1: Doesn't it sound very sore in the stone to you? Yeah,
Speaker 1: very it's a very good comparison. So she's out on
Speaker 1: the battlefield and she's got her her white flag with
Speaker 1: a flour delis and it started in May and it
Speaker 1: lasted nine days and she won. It was pretty impressive,
Speaker 1: and so Charles a few months later was officially crowned
Speaker 1: the King of France. And what's interesting about this point
Speaker 1: is that Joan wanted to go on and liberate Paris.
Speaker 1: At this point, you know, Charles has got his legitimacy,
Speaker 1: but they're still conflict going on and Paris was still
Speaker 1: controlled by other forces. Charles was actually against this. He
Speaker 1: wanted to stop the violence. He wanted to not push
Speaker 1: any further, so he opposed and delayed her her traveling
Speaker 1: to France or traveling to Paris to um liberate it.
Speaker 1: And his story and speculate that charles is um opposition
Speaker 1: actually crippled her chances as success because when Jone did
Speaker 1: leave to go do this, she failed. And a few
Speaker 1: months after that she actually tried again deliberate the city
Speaker 1: of Campienne and it was there that she was captured
Speaker 1: in fourteen thirty seve When she was captured, she wasn't
Speaker 1: a regular prisoner of war. She had actually made a
Speaker 1: couple of enemies along the way, one of whom was
Speaker 1: a somewhat powerful man, the Bishop of Beauvais named Pierre Couschamp,
Speaker 1: and he was determined that he was going to make
Speaker 1: this girl out to be the witch that he suspected
Speaker 1: she was, and he wanted her burned at the stake.
Speaker 1: He was tired of her. She was, you know, and subordinate.
Speaker 1: She was just causing a huge ruckus. And what's more,
Speaker 1: if she were convicted for heresy, it would totally discredit
Speaker 1: the fact that Charles was on the throne, because he
Speaker 1: would have gotten there by some sort of means of
Speaker 1: black magic. Almost so this was going to have resounding
Speaker 1: ripple effects if he could just prove that she was
Speaker 1: a witch. And what's interesting about this trial is that
Speaker 1: it was so hard to convict Joan of anything because
Speaker 1: she was so incredibly devoted to God and to the
Speaker 1: voices that she'd been hearing, and so anytime they tried
Speaker 1: to catch her in a heretical statement or telling some
Speaker 1: sort of lie, it just kept reflecting back to the
Speaker 1: fact that she was she was a girl of God.
Speaker 1: She was following him and she was sent to earth
Speaker 1: to do his his divine deeds. Kushawn knew what he
Speaker 1: was doing, trying to corner her into admitting heresies. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting that Joan was so she was, you know, unlearned,
Speaker 1: she was illiterate, and yet she was able to give
Speaker 1: very good answers. And a lot of historians chalk uh
Speaker 1: this trial up to being part of the inquisition. And
Speaker 1: like we mentioned in in the podcast about the Spanish Inquisition,
Speaker 1: that there were there were different factions of inquisitions going
Speaker 1: around around Europe, and when Cohn wanted to bring in
Speaker 1: official inquisitors, they're really reluctant. The Grand Inquisitor of the
Speaker 1: Faith in Rome wasn't able to come, and so the
Speaker 1: bishop had to settle for a sub inquisitor. And even
Speaker 1: even him, he was reluctant because there's lots of irregular
Speaker 1: irregularities going on in this case. You know, they didn't
Speaker 1: want to be involved. She maybe she was a legitimate
Speaker 1: we don't know. And so the souther inquisitor only came
Speaker 1: after Cochawn like threatened him, which is interesting, And he
Speaker 1: only showed up occasionally when he didn't like come to
Speaker 1: England for the trial. So if Kashan hadn't already shown
Speaker 1: his true colors, he did a little bit later because
Speaker 1: he thought that there was a loophole and a law
Speaker 1: that he could get John through for cross dressing. Of
Speaker 1: all things, here is a girl who has listened to
Speaker 1: divine voices and delivered france aunts, and now she's going
Speaker 1: to be punished for wearing men's clothes, which was what
Speaker 1: the voices had commanded her to do. And furthermore, when
Speaker 1: you're on the battlefield surrounded by men, you've got to
Speaker 1: dress herself in similar raimond I mean, you're a soldier
Speaker 1: at that point. And we should know that there's two
Speaker 1: different types of churches that were recognized, um the Church Militant,
Speaker 1: which was the Catholic Church on earth that particular incarnation,
Speaker 1: and then there was the Church Triumph, which was God's
Speaker 1: heavenly church, and the one that Joan ascribed to above
Speaker 1: all else was the Church Triumph. But in order to
Speaker 1: be a true and devout Catholic, you would have to
Speaker 1: ascribe to both and follow the laws of both churches. Yes,
Speaker 1: so this was how Cohn was able to sort of
Speaker 1: corner her into heresy that she was she filled herself
Speaker 1: directly responsible to God himself, rather than going through the
Speaker 1: Church on Earth. And Coshn essentially asked, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: that cross dressing is a sin, and she tried to say, yes,
Speaker 1: I understand that, but it's a very a small detail
Speaker 1: looks look at the big picture. But he eventually forced
Speaker 1: her into signing a decree that said she would not
Speaker 1: wear men's clothes anymore because it was a violation of
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church on Earth, the Church militant. But then
Speaker 1: when she was in prison awaiting the rest of the
Speaker 1: investigation and the trial, some people later testified that all
Speaker 1: of her female clothes were stolen and the only ones
Speaker 1: left or men's clothes. And she certainly wasn't going to
Speaker 1: go around nude because that would be, you know, very
Speaker 1: unsafe for her. She needed to protect herself, and so
Speaker 1: once she had on the men's clothes, she'd broken the law. Yeah,
Speaker 1: actually read there's there was one account I think that
Speaker 1: she was actually sexually assaulted in prison, and I think obviously,
Speaker 1: even though she wasn't on the battlefield, when she was
Speaker 1: on prison during her trial, etcetera, she would want to
Speaker 1: stay in men's clothes to protect herself from from this
Speaker 1: kind of assault. And so while that may have worked
Speaker 1: in offending off sexual advances, it certainly didn't work for
Speaker 1: a cushion and that was it. She was set to
Speaker 1: be burned at the stake, only nineteen years old, and
Speaker 1: she was burned alive. Yeah, and a couple of decades later,
Speaker 1: Charles the seventh actually initiated when he got like full power,
Speaker 1: he was secure in his power, he initiated proceedings that
Speaker 1: the church could, um could liberate her or could clear
Speaker 1: her name of heresy, and they did just that. Um.
Speaker 1: I think it was just twenty four years after she
Speaker 1: was burned at the stake that she was cleared, which
Speaker 1: is interesting. And it wasn't until the twentieth century that
Speaker 1: she was canonized by the Catholic Church, and it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Some people say that that took a long time. Some
Speaker 1: people say it's weird that she's a Saine at all, because,
Speaker 1: you know, why would God choose aside in this hundred
Speaker 1: years war that had to do with the legitimacy of
Speaker 1: the throne and everything like that, and these between two
Speaker 1: Christian countries as well, Why would God take a side.
Speaker 1: It's kind of clear that the Church made her a
Speaker 1: saint partly to improve relations with the French government, which
Speaker 1: is interesting. And so today she's regarded as the patron
Speaker 1: say of France. She's also called that the maid of Arliens,
Speaker 1: that's not really Irish, the man of Orleans. And what's
Speaker 1: interesting about being burned at the steak This is something
Speaker 1: that we have discussed before in our Medieval Torture podcast.
Speaker 1: I really I can't let it. I can't let it go.
Speaker 1: When you're burned at the steak, you don't actually die
Speaker 1: from being burned, just like if you were in a
Speaker 1: burning building, you die from smoke inhalation first, and that's
Speaker 1: how Joan died, from smoke inhalation. And so they ordered
Speaker 1: her body to be burned again, and the after the
Speaker 1: second time, her organs were still somewhat intact, so she
Speaker 1: was ordered to be burned a third time to completely
Speaker 1: finish off her body. So she was burned at the
Speaker 1: steak three times. The first time killed her, but they
Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, get her all done for good measure.
Speaker 1: And then her ashes were meant to be scattered in
Speaker 1: a nearby river, but some people suspect that they weren't,
Speaker 1: and not too long ago, some ashes were found in
Speaker 1: a Praisian apothecary and scientists started wondering, you know, just
Speaker 1: just wondering could these be joan of arcs And so
Speaker 1: in two thousand six, one French scientist was able to
Speaker 1: say that these ashes show evidence that they're from a
Speaker 1: young female body, and um, I think it shows evidence
Speaker 1: of of bone and muscle tissue from a somewhat young
Speaker 1: adult girl. And we don't know definitively whether or not
Speaker 1: it's joan of arc but you have to ask yourself
Speaker 1: how many women were really burned at the steak at
Speaker 1: France during this time exactly. And so they've sipped it
Speaker 1: through these ashes, and they've also found what looks like
Speaker 1: a femur from a cat. And it would not be
Speaker 1: uncommon during medieval times for a cat to be thrown
Speaker 1: on a funeral pyre if a witch was being burned
Speaker 1: as sort of an appeasement to Satan. But the femer
Speaker 1: wasn't burned as badly as the other fragments of bones,
Speaker 1: as they think maybe the cat just went walking by afterward.
Speaker 1: Dad luck for a cat. But there's also a very
Speaker 1: small fragment of cloth that could be linen or some
Speaker 1: sort of gown that one would have worn when woman
Speaker 1: was being burned at the steak. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of miss stories there whether or not it's Joan. Wait
Speaker 1: on now it is it is anyway, So a lot
Speaker 1: of interesting years about women in history and the grand
Speaker 1: sacrifices that they underwent for a trying to be a
Speaker 1: savior and having to dress like a man to do
Speaker 1: it and then getting you kicked in the pants for
Speaker 1: that one. So and speaking of rolics, I actually recently
Speaker 1: wrote about the Shroud of Turin and uh it's fate
Speaker 1: during the Middle Ages. It was a really cool, cool
Speaker 1: story wrote about it on the blog which you can
Speaker 1: find out how stuff works dot com. Um, So if
Speaker 1: you missed in history class blog is really cool, you
Speaker 1: should check it out. A Candida and I write on
Speaker 1: it each once a day we do, and starting every Friday,
Speaker 1: we're going to be having conversations with you guys about
Speaker 1: our latest podcast, so be sure you check that out.
Speaker 1: And we also hope that you will look up this
Speaker 1: wonderful article called why was cross dressing the only crime
Speaker 1: Joan of arc was convicted of? On how stuff works
Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
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