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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast

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Speaker 1: I'm at a Turkey Andy Keener, joined by staff writer

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Speaker 1: Jane mcgrad Taylor Kansas. Hey, Jane, So, we spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of time on the podcast talking about ancient civilizations

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Speaker 1: and societies of the past, and wars and medieval torture

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Speaker 1: devices and Thomas Jefferson. But something we don't get around

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Speaker 1: too as often is very important women in history. And

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Speaker 1: we actually had a listener email us and she wrote,

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Speaker 1: first off, I'd like to say I love your podcast,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much. Anyway, I would like to hear

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Speaker 1: about some more famous women in history. I have a

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Speaker 1: couple of ideas, but someone who really sticks out to

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Speaker 1: me that would be fun is Joan of Arc. She's

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Speaker 1: always so shrouded in mystery and I would really love

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Speaker 1: to hear your take on it. If you had to

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Speaker 1: do one, I would definitely see her. And that came

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Speaker 1: from t Chica and she also said she wanted to

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Speaker 1: hear about Anny. Luckily, Jane Adams said in her Truth

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Speaker 1: and a couple of other very exciting women. And not

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Speaker 1: only are we going to cover Joan of Arc. But

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Speaker 1: just to give you guys a little sneak peak of

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Speaker 1: what's coming up down the line, we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about women in ancient Egypt and Betsy Ross and a

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Speaker 1: few other surprises. Yeah, and Joan of Arc is going

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Speaker 1: to be one of the most popular I think. I

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Speaker 1: think maybe I remember another fan asking for her as well,

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Speaker 1: but you know, always a popular choice. To give you

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Speaker 1: some context, she lived from fourteen twelve to fourteen thirty one,

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Speaker 1: and if you haven't noticed, that's a pretty short amount

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Speaker 1: of time. She didn't live very long. If you don't

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Speaker 1: want to do the math real quick, that means she

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Speaker 1: was only about nineteen when she died, and she that's

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Speaker 1: when she was put to death for heresy. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: that's the end of a very long and complicated life story.

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Speaker 1: So I think to get everyone started, we'll sort of

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Speaker 1: set up what's brewing over in Europe and more specifically

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Speaker 1: in France and England, because Joe was known for leading

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Speaker 1: the Stage of Orleans, which occurred in fourteen twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: but as you may remember from one of our earlier podcasts,

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Speaker 1: the Inquisition started raging much earlier than that, and in

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Speaker 1: twelve thirty one, uh, they started trying to phase out

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Speaker 1: heretics from the Catholic Church, and as events transpired, we

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Speaker 1: had the Hundred Years War startup, and that's where things

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Speaker 1: got really sticky with the Church and then with France

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Speaker 1: and England fighting for the throne. And I'm gonna let

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Speaker 1: Jane give you guys some background on that. So the

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Speaker 1: Hundred Years War was actually a little bit longer than

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Speaker 1: there was a hundred and sixteen years that it lasted,

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Speaker 1: and we lump it together called the Hundred Years War.

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Speaker 1: It was really a series of conflicts, as you might guess,

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Speaker 1: it was treaties and broken treaties that lasted for this

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Speaker 1: period between about thirteen thirty seven and fourteen fifty three

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Speaker 1: between France and England. It's really sticky issues, really complicated.

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Speaker 1: But it goes back to actually ten sixty six when William,

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Speaker 1: who was the Duke of Normandy at the time, defeated

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Speaker 1: the King of England and took a for England. So

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Speaker 1: that meant that the King of England held territory in France.

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Speaker 1: And by the fourteenth century those territories, those French territories,

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Speaker 1: were still in dispute and things had gotten even stickier

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Speaker 1: to Jane because people had been inter marrying between France

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Speaker 1: and England, and so when you talk about uh lineage

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Speaker 1: and the heir to certain seats, it's really complicated. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In thirteen o nine, the King of England's son married

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Speaker 1: the daughter of the King of France, and the result

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Speaker 1: of that marriage was Edward the third, I believe, and

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Speaker 1: so he had a claim to the French throne in

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Speaker 1: thirteen twenty eight, which happened to be the year that

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Speaker 1: the French King, Charles the fourth died without a clear air,

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Speaker 1: so as you can see it is it's a huge mess.

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Speaker 1: And I fast forward to about fourteen fifteen you have

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Speaker 1: English King Henry the fifth, and if you've ever read

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Speaker 1: that Shakespeare one of the best Shakespeare plays, I think

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Speaker 1: you know a little bit about the Battle of Aaron Court, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: and how he was very victorious and eventually he invaded

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Speaker 1: France and got them to sign the Treaty of Tis,

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Speaker 1: which agreed that Henry would get to the French throne

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Speaker 1: after the sitting king, Charles the sixth died, So it

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Speaker 1: seemed like a fair compromise, but it was made a

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Speaker 1: void when both of them died. Yeah, they both died

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Speaker 1: in fourteen twenty two. Henry died first and Charles died

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Speaker 1: a few weeks afterwards. So this complicated the question of

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Speaker 1: who would get the French throne. Basically you have the

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Speaker 1: issue of the French people didn't like, they didn't support

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Speaker 1: the Treaty of Trois, and they supported Charles the seventh

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Speaker 1: of the king's son to become king. And also was

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Speaker 1: complicated by the fact that Henry the fifth heir son

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Speaker 1: was only a baby when he died, so the baby

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Speaker 1: basically had according to the treaty, the baby was now

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Speaker 1: king of both England and France, and France was not

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Speaker 1: happy with this, and so Charles the seventh that Dauphin

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Speaker 1: he was actually living in exile in Nyon, and that

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Speaker 1: is where he would meet Joan of ar Ark. And

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Speaker 1: if we flashed back to Joan, when she was at

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Speaker 1: the age of thirteen, she started hearing voices, and she

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Speaker 1: was a peasant girl from very humble, humble origins. I

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Speaker 1: think she was illiterate, and she prided herself, I think,

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Speaker 1: on being a good daughter and a good servant to God.

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Speaker 1: And one day she was working outside and she started

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Speaker 1: hearing people talking to her and she was able to

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Speaker 1: identify the voices as coming from St. Michael, St. Margaret

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Speaker 1: and St. Catherine. And we should know it also that

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Speaker 1: um I was reading about Joan in the context of

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Speaker 1: France at this time, that French France was Catholic, but

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Speaker 1: they were very mystic believers in France, and so they

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Speaker 1: put a lot of stock into these visions, in these

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Speaker 1: divine signs. So obviously Joan wouldn't buy into it very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and she took it to heart. And at first I

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Speaker 1: don't think the directions were too complicated coming from the voices,

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Speaker 1: things like be a good daughter, be a eating into

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Speaker 1: your family, do a good job with your chores, and

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Speaker 1: there seemed like, you know, good comments sense things that

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Speaker 1: most of us probably got from watching Sesame Street when

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Speaker 1: we were younger. But then the voices became a little

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Speaker 1: bit more I guess, fervent, and the messages were much

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Speaker 1: more poignant. They started telling her that she needed to

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Speaker 1: cut her hair short and start wearing men's garb, and

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Speaker 1: that eventually her calling was that she was going to

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Speaker 1: get her own military troops and she was going to

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Speaker 1: help lead the French to victory over the English and

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Speaker 1: put Charles the seventh on his rifle place on the throne,

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Speaker 1: And like Jane was saying, people in France bought into

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Speaker 1: the idea of of mysical visions and dreams. And Jones's

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Speaker 1: own father started having dreams around this time too that

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Speaker 1: his daughter was going to run away, so he was

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Speaker 1: ensuring that his sons were watching her to make sure

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Speaker 1: she wasn't flaeing from home. But she did. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: thought she was hearing signs from God. And God tells

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Speaker 1: you to leave. You know, you leave, You've cut your hair,

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Speaker 1: and you get out of dodge. So she left to

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Speaker 1: seek out Charles the seventh. She arrived at his court

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Speaker 1: and after a couple of days she was granted permission

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Speaker 1: to see him. But even then when she was going

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Speaker 1: into permission, she was there at the court and Charles

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Speaker 1: the seventh decided to disguise himself, but interestingly, Joan recognized

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Speaker 1: him immediately, which sort of wants the idea that she

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Speaker 1: was sent from God, right, And I'm trying to put

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Speaker 1: myself in charles place and really think about this. Here

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Speaker 1: is a very young girl who is wearing men's clothes.

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Speaker 1: She's got short hair. It's very unusual for the times

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Speaker 1: that a cross dressing girl would come to court and

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Speaker 1: seek out rather forcefully the Dauphin. It just seems a

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Speaker 1: little bit um, what's the word I'm looking for? A

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Speaker 1: little uh? She bizar, you know, who does she think

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Speaker 1: she has defined me? And so he really wanted to

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Speaker 1: be able to trust her if she was who she

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Speaker 1: said she was. And after she located him in a

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Speaker 1: crowd full of people had never seen him before, maybe

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Speaker 1: never even seen a likeness of him or what of

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Speaker 1: him at that age, she told him also a secret

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Speaker 1: about himself that no one else would know, and supposedly

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Speaker 1: to this day, we still don't know what that secret is. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Though. Um I read that his story and

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Speaker 1: speculated at least that the secret that that she said

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Speaker 1: had to do with his legitimacy. He suspected that he

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Speaker 1: was an illegitimate child and uh and Joan sort of

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Speaker 1: put an end to this to this question from divine sources. Well,

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Speaker 1: if that is in fact the secret that she told

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Speaker 1: and she was able to put his mind at ease,

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Speaker 1: then we can understand why he put full trust in

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Speaker 1: her and gave her her own troops and made her

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Speaker 1: captain in the French army and she was sent to Orleans,

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Speaker 1: and before he actually put her on the battlefield, he

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Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that he wasn't aligning himself with

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Speaker 1: some sort of sorceress. So he had her questioned by

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Speaker 1: a panel of clergy and they said she was legit.

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Speaker 1: She's not a witch. She probably is hearing these voices

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Speaker 1: from saints and she is sent by God. Yeah. One

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Speaker 1: curious thing that they during this inquisition, well was initial

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Speaker 1: questioning of whether she was actually sent from God, was

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Speaker 1: that they had women actually physically examined her and see

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Speaker 1: if she was a virgin, and they found that she was,

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Speaker 1: and so that concluded to them that she couldn't have

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Speaker 1: been in cohorts with the devil. So by this time,

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Speaker 1: if you're not a huge fan of Down, hold on

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Speaker 1: because there's more. And I'm a huge fan because I

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Speaker 1: think it takes a lot of bravery and guts to

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Speaker 1: follow through on these voices that you're hearing and to

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Speaker 1: put yourself through that kind of rigorous examination. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you really are putting yourself on the line. And can

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Speaker 1: you imagine what the men in the military must have

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Speaker 1: thought when a sixteen year old girl was put in

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Speaker 1: front of them and said that she was going to

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Speaker 1: be there later. Yeah. One story I read about that

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Speaker 1: was that soldiers were convinced that she was sent from

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Speaker 1: God because at one point when she was wounded in battle,

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Speaker 1: they saw part of her naked body and they weren't

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Speaker 1: taken by desire or anything, and they thought this was

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Speaker 1: sort of God, you know, shielding them from sexual advances

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Speaker 1: on her. And that was a problem that would emerge

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Speaker 1: later in her life. But the soldier and as a captain,

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Speaker 1: really she proved that she was a very, very good,

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Speaker 1: good fighter, and she had the sword that was given

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Speaker 1: to her, and sort of an Arthur like way, the

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Speaker 1: voices told her that before she went into battle, there

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Speaker 1: would be a sword for her hidden behind an altar

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Speaker 1: of a church, and it would be covered in rust

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Speaker 1: and carved with five different crosses. And they sent some

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Speaker 1: people out to go fetch the sword, and sure enough

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Speaker 1: I was there, and she wiped off the rest and

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Speaker 1: she was ready for the battlefield and with her miraculous sword.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't it sound very sore in the stone to you? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very it's a very good comparison. So she's out on

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Speaker 1: the battlefield and she's got her her white flag with

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Speaker 1: a flour delis and it started in May and it

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Speaker 1: lasted nine days and she won. It was pretty impressive,

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Speaker 1: and so Charles a few months later was officially crowned

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Speaker 1: the King of France. And what's interesting about this point

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Speaker 1: is that Joan wanted to go on and liberate Paris.

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Speaker 1: At this point, you know, Charles has got his legitimacy,

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Speaker 1: but they're still conflict going on and Paris was still

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Speaker 1: controlled by other forces. Charles was actually against this. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to stop the violence. He wanted to not push

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Speaker 1: any further, so he opposed and delayed her her traveling

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Speaker 1: to France or traveling to Paris to um liberate it.

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Speaker 1: And his story and speculate that charles is um opposition

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Speaker 1: actually crippled her chances as success because when Jone did

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Speaker 1: months after that she actually tried again deliberate the city

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Speaker 1: of Campienne and it was there that she was captured

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Speaker 1: in fourteen thirty seve When she was captured, she wasn't

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Speaker 1: a regular prisoner of war. She had actually made a

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Speaker 1: couple of enemies along the way, one of whom was

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Speaker 1: a somewhat powerful man, the Bishop of Beauvais named Pierre Couschamp,

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Speaker 1: and he was determined that he was going to make

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Speaker 1: this girl out to be the witch that he suspected

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Speaker 1: she was, and he wanted her burned at the stake.

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Speaker 1: He was tired of her. She was, you know, and subordinate.

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Speaker 1: She was just causing a huge ruckus. And what's more,

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Speaker 1: if she were convicted for heresy, it would totally discredit

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Speaker 1: the fact that Charles was on the throne, because he

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Speaker 1: black magic. Almost so this was going to have resounding

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Speaker 1: ripple effects if he could just prove that she was

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Speaker 1: a witch. And what's interesting about this trial is that

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Speaker 1: it was so hard to convict Joan of anything because

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Speaker 1: she was so incredibly devoted to God and to the

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Speaker 1: voices that she'd been hearing, and so anytime they tried

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Speaker 1: to catch her in a heretical statement or telling some

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Speaker 1: sort of lie, it just kept reflecting back to the

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Speaker 1: fact that she was she was a girl of God.

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Speaker 1: She was following him and she was sent to earth

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Speaker 1: to do his his divine deeds. Kushawn knew what he

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Speaker 1: was doing, trying to corner her into admitting heresies. But

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Speaker 1: it's interesting that Joan was so she was, you know, unlearned,

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Speaker 1: she was illiterate, and yet she was able to give

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Speaker 1: very good answers. And a lot of historians chalk uh

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Speaker 1: this trial up to being part of the inquisition. And

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Speaker 1: like we mentioned in in the podcast about the Spanish Inquisition,

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Speaker 1: that there were there were different factions of inquisitions going

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Speaker 1: around around Europe, and when Cohn wanted to bring in

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Speaker 1: official inquisitors, they're really reluctant. The Grand Inquisitor of the

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Speaker 1: Faith in Rome wasn't able to come, and so the

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Speaker 1: bishop had to settle for a sub inquisitor. And even

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Speaker 1: even him, he was reluctant because there's lots of irregular

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Speaker 1: irregularities going on in this case. You know, they didn't

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Speaker 1: want to be involved. She maybe she was a legitimate

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Speaker 1: we don't know. And so the souther inquisitor only came

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Speaker 1: after Cochawn like threatened him, which is interesting, And he

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Speaker 1: only showed up occasionally when he didn't like come to

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Speaker 1: England for the trial. So if Kashan hadn't already shown

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Speaker 1: his true colors, he did a little bit later because

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Speaker 1: he thought that there was a loophole and a law

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Speaker 1: that he could get John through for cross dressing. Of

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Speaker 1: all things, here is a girl who has listened to

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Speaker 1: divine voices and delivered france aunts, and now she's going

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Speaker 1: to be punished for wearing men's clothes, which was what

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Speaker 1: the voices had commanded her to do. And furthermore, when

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Speaker 1: you're on the battlefield surrounded by men, you've got to

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Speaker 1: dress herself in similar raimond I mean, you're a soldier

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Speaker 1: at that point. And we should know that there's two

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Speaker 1: different types of churches that were recognized, um the Church Militant,

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Speaker 1: which was the Catholic Church on earth that particular incarnation,

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Speaker 1: and then there was the Church Triumph, which was God's

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Speaker 1: heavenly church, and the one that Joan ascribed to above

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Speaker 1: all else was the Church Triumph. But in order to

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Speaker 1: be a true and devout Catholic, you would have to

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Speaker 1: ascribe to both and follow the laws of both churches. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so this was how Cohn was able to sort of

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Speaker 1: corner her into heresy that she was she filled herself

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Speaker 1: directly responsible to God himself, rather than going through the

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Speaker 1: Church on Earth. And Coshn essentially asked, you know, you know,

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Speaker 1: that cross dressing is a sin, and she tried to say, yes,

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Speaker 1: I understand that, but it's a very a small detail

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Speaker 1: looks look at the big picture. But he eventually forced

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Speaker 1: her into signing a decree that said she would not

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Speaker 1: wear men's clothes anymore because it was a violation of

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church on Earth, the Church militant. But then

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Speaker 1: when she was in prison awaiting the rest of the

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Speaker 1: investigation and the trial, some people later testified that all

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Speaker 1: of her female clothes were stolen and the only ones

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Speaker 1: left or men's clothes. And she certainly wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: go around nude because that would be, you know, very

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Speaker 1: unsafe for her. She needed to protect herself, and so

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Speaker 1: once she had on the men's clothes, she'd broken the law. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: actually read there's there was one account I think that

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Speaker 1: she was actually sexually assaulted in prison, and I think obviously,

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Speaker 1: even though she wasn't on the battlefield, when she was

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Speaker 1: on prison during her trial, etcetera, she would want to

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Speaker 1: stay in men's clothes to protect herself from from this

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Speaker 1: kind of assault. And so while that may have worked

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Speaker 1: in offending off sexual advances, it certainly didn't work for

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Speaker 1: a cushion and that was it. She was set to

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Speaker 1: be burned at the stake, only nineteen years old, and

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Speaker 1: she was burned alive. Yeah, and a couple of decades later,

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Speaker 1: Charles the seventh actually initiated when he got like full power,

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Speaker 1: he was secure in his power, he initiated proceedings that

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Speaker 1: the church could, um could liberate her or could clear

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Speaker 1: her name of heresy, and they did just that. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just twenty four years after she

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Speaker 1: was burned at the stake that she was cleared, which

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Speaker 1: is interesting. And it wasn't until the twentieth century that

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Speaker 1: she was canonized by the Catholic Church, and it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Some people say that that took a long time. Some

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Speaker 1: people say it's weird that she's a Saine at all, because,

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Speaker 1: you know, why would God choose aside in this hundred

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Speaker 1: years war that had to do with the legitimacy of

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Speaker 1: the throne and everything like that, and these between two

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Speaker 1: Christian countries as well, Why would God take a side.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of clear that the Church made her a

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Speaker 1: saint partly to improve relations with the French government, which

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Speaker 1: is interesting. And so today she's regarded as the patron

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Speaker 1: say of France. She's also called that the maid of Arliens,

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Speaker 1: that's not really Irish, the man of Orleans. And what's

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Speaker 1: interesting about being burned at the steak This is something

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Speaker 1: that we have discussed before in our Medieval Torture podcast.

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Speaker 1: I really I can't let it. I can't let it go.

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Speaker 1: When you're burned at the steak, you don't actually die

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Speaker 1: from being burned, just like if you were in a

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Speaker 1: burning building, you die from smoke inhalation first, and that's

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Speaker 1: how Joan died, from smoke inhalation. And so they ordered

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Speaker 1: her body to be burned again, and the after the

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Speaker 1: second time, her organs were still somewhat intact, so she

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Speaker 1: was ordered to be burned a third time to completely

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Speaker 1: finish off her body. So she was burned at the

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Speaker 1: steak three times. The first time killed her, but they

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Speaker 1: wanted to, you know, get her all done for good measure.

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Speaker 1: And then her ashes were meant to be scattered in

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Speaker 1: a nearby river, but some people suspect that they weren't,

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Speaker 1: and not too long ago, some ashes were found in

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Speaker 1: a Praisian apothecary and scientists started wondering, you know, just

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Speaker 1: just wondering could these be joan of arcs And so

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Speaker 1: in two thousand six, one French scientist was able to

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Speaker 1: say that these ashes show evidence that they're from a

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Speaker 1: young female body, and um, I think it shows evidence

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Speaker 1: of of bone and muscle tissue from a somewhat young

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Speaker 1: adult girl. And we don't know definitively whether or not

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Speaker 1: it's joan of arc but you have to ask yourself

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Speaker 1: how many women were really burned at the steak at

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Speaker 1: France during this time exactly. And so they've sipped it

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Speaker 1: through these ashes, and they've also found what looks like

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Speaker 1: a femur from a cat. And it would not be

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Speaker 1: uncommon during medieval times for a cat to be thrown

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Speaker 1: on a funeral pyre if a witch was being burned

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Speaker 1: as sort of an appeasement to Satan. But the femer

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Speaker 1: wasn't burned as badly as the other fragments of bones,

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Speaker 1: as they think maybe the cat just went walking by afterward.

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Speaker 1: Dad luck for a cat. But there's also a very

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Speaker 1: small fragment of cloth that could be linen or some

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Speaker 1: sort of gown that one would have worn when woman

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Speaker 1: was being burned at the steak. So there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of miss stories there whether or not it's Joan. Wait

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Speaker 1: on now it is it is anyway, So a lot

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Speaker 1: of interesting years about women in history and the grand

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Speaker 1: sacrifices that they underwent for a trying to be a

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Speaker 1: savior and having to dress like a man to do

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Speaker 1: it and then getting you kicked in the pants for

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Speaker 1: that one. So and speaking of rolics, I actually recently

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Speaker 1: wrote about the Shroud of Turin and uh it's fate

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Speaker 1: during the Middle Ages. It was a really cool, cool

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Speaker 1: story wrote about it on the blog which you can

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Speaker 1: find out how stuff works dot com. Um, So if

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Speaker 1: you missed in history class blog is really cool, you

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Speaker 1: should check it out. A Candida and I write on

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Speaker 1: it each once a day we do, and starting every Friday,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be having conversations with you guys about

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Speaker 1: our latest podcast, so be sure you check that out.

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Speaker 1: And we also hope that you will look up this

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Speaker 1: wonderful article called why was cross dressing the only crime

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Speaker 1: Joan of arc was convicted of? On how stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics.

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Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com. Let us know

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Speaker 1: what you think. Send an email to podcast at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com m