WEBVTT - Befriend Your Beast 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.040 Jen Kirkman. That's right, there is a brand new episode 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:20.239 of this podcast, even during this holiday week. I know 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:23.279 a lot of other podcasts throw up a best of 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:25.680 episode or they just take the week off completely, not 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.240 us over here at Anxiety Bites. Well, I mean technically 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.760 this is being recorded the week before, and I will 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:36.040 allow myself some time off as well the producers of 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.519 this show, but we all felt it was really important 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.560 to just keep the train going, have new episodes every week. 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:46.040 Why take time off? So I hope that you appreciate 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.239 and I hope you enjoy having something new to listen to. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.519 Hopefully you you got this when you really needed it. 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.200 And speaking of recording in advance, my guest today is 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.680 Sarah Wilson, and I will tell you more about her 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.760 in a minute, but we recorded this interview I think 0:00:59.800 --> 0:01:04.360 the summer of about six months ago. And you know, 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.560 we've recorded a lot of interviews in advance so that 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.000 we could get ahead of things. But sometimes I don't 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:15.160 air things right away, and I was saving Sarah's for 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:17.360 I don't know, I just was trying to find the 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.160 perfect place to put it and I think we've landed 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:22.880 on the good place for this episode, which is that 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.880 awkward week between Christmas and New Year's Even if you 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.760 don't celebrate either one, there is just this kind of 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.199 way to mark time. It's the last week of the year. 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:36.200 Maybe you've just seen family, Maybe you skip seeing family 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.160 due to this crazy wave of amicron that seems to 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:44.959 be evading sometimes vaccines. I I don't even want to 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:48.720 get into it because personally it is bringing me down, 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:52.240 to put it mildly, and but that's okay. I'm letting 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.200 myself be in that kind of melancholy place. You know. Um, 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:58.080 I'm not five years old. I don't have to be 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.080 overly excited at Christmas time. I will be fine. It'll 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:04.240 just be a little bit a melancholy, but overall very 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.040 grateful that my family and I are healthy. But I 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:10.880 don't know. This week I always think is is interesting. 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.640 I can see where it might bring up a lot 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:14.640 of things for people. Maybe you've just seen your family 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:16.920 and maybe that was upsetting. Maybe it was great, and 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:18.680 you're sad to go back home because you missed them. 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:22.320 Maybe you're looking at your credit card statement and thinking, 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.760 oh boy, how did I spend all this money. Oh god. 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.200 You know, maybe you're dreading New Year's Eve because you 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:30.720 don't have plans, where because you do have plans, maybe 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.480 you're looking forward to making resolutions, or maybe you're not. 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:35.400 I think this week can bring up a lot of 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:37.640 things for people. For me, I actually kind of like 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:40.920 this week because it's a nice limbo. The world seems 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.560 kind of asleep, kind of shut down. I don't like 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.600 the first week of January. I feel bombarded with other 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:53.960 people's goals and resolutions and challenges and energy coming at me. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.760 It's a lot. But I like this week because it's 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.200 this sleepy kind of time where it's the last week 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.120 of the year. People are tired, exhausted, had too much sugar. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:06.240 Maybe they have the week off work. It's just sort 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:10.919 of eat leftovers where your pajamas. That's that's at least 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:12.320 how it is for me because I happen to have 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.080 the week off of work. So I kind of like 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.440 this week. I kind of wish the whole year could 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.680 feel like this week. Just kind of lazy. It's not 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.280 time to take the lights down yet. I still have 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:29.000 our Christmas lights up, and yeah, you can eat pie 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:31.760 for breakfast. I mean come on, it's left over from Christmas. 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:33.720 You know, there's something about this week. I like, yeah, 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.640 throw on another movie. And I tend to get very 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.880 sad when this week is over because I feel like 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:43.920 it's never enough rest and relaxation. And so there's something 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:48.440 about being in that middle and sitting in something that 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.800 I feel is really appropriate for airing this episode this 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.520 week with my guest Sarah Wilson. She is the author 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:57.960 of many books, but the book that we focus on 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.560 really in this interview as her book Abudding Sety called 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:03.720 First We Make the Beast Beautiful, and a lot of 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:07.640 her book is about sort of just living with it, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.640 living with anxiety, living with your feelings, you know, letting 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.320 it just be a part of you, a companion in 0:04:14.360 --> 0:04:17.120 your life as you go about things. And yeah, sometimes 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.960 we feel like we don't know what we're doing and 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.039 we feel stuck. We feel in between. The way I feel, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:26.920 you know, during this week, we are in between two 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:28.800 big important dates and I just kind of want to 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:30.720 stay here and hide. And sometimes we feel like we're 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.440 in between something in a bad way where we feel 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:34.920 stuck and we want to get out. And a lot 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.279 of it comes down to acceptance do we have to 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:40.719 label everything? Do we have to figure everything out? And 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.599 that's what I really loved about Sarah's memoir. It was 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.640 just so first of all, just beautifully written, but I 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:49.320 really related. I mean, she's every time I have a 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.880 guest on or read their work, there's always something that 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.520 is a totally new thought for me. And Sarah talks 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.680 about traveling, and I always I am kind of curious 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:01.800 about my own life where I travel a lot for 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.000 someone with anxiety, and you know, I've gone on and 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:06.680 on about my fear flying and how I'm overcame it, 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.320 but it's still totally didn't used to line up to 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.800 me that I loved traveling and traveling by myself so much, 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:15.039 and and reading Sarah's book it put it into perspective 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.400 that that's actually kind of a part of my anxiety 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:21.839 is like keep moving, keep moving, keep moving, you know, um, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.560 that sort of restlessness with when I do sit still 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.480 that especially this week, I think I love it. I 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.640 think I love eating pipe for breakfast, watching movies on 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:32.280 and I don't want to go back to Ork and 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.320 I don't have to do anything. But I don't know 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.680 if that's necessarily true. You know, I think. I think 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.080 what I can do is appreciate this week for what 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.200 it is and not worry about maybe I won't like 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:43.719 it when this week is over. It's like, just be 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:48.880 here now in this week and appreciate it for what 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:52.320 it is, and don't try to I don't even know, 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.839 don't even worry about what you might feel like next week. 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:56.719 And once once you feel a certain way next week, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:58.800 great feel it. Go about your life. And that's what 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.800 I liked about Sarah's overall message, which is, you know, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:08.359 anxiety exists and we can live with it and we 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.720 can also thrive because of it. So I will let 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.000 you just hear my conversation with Sarah Um A little 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.000 more about her. She's a multi New York Times and 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:23.120 Amazon bestselling author. She's a podcaster, philanthropist, a climate adviser. 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.320 She has written books uh like the New York Times 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.279 bestsellers I Quit Sugar and First We Make the Beast Beautiful. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:33.480 She's an author of eleven cookbooks, and her recent book 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:39.000 is called This One, Wild and Precious Life. It won 0:06:39.040 --> 0:06:42.440 a Gold not A List award and was seen in 0:06:42.760 --> 0:06:46.920 USA Today in Washington posts ten new books to spotlight 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:50.960 in this book. Um this one, wild and precious life. 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:56.240 She talks about climate change, mobilizing individuals, climate change anxiety. 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:57.960 So maybe we'll have her back to talk about how 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.400 we how we deal with the very real anxiety of 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.680 climate change. But for today I talked to Sarah about 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.640 her book First We Make the Beast Beautiful. I hope 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:12.320 you enjoyed my conversation with Sarah Wilson. I won't catch 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:19.680 you on the other side. Sarah Wilson, Welcome to Anxiety 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.160 Bites the podcast. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.480 to be here. You're in Australia, which, um it's tomorrow 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.960 for people with anxiety. Can you tell us anything you're 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.640 one day ahead of us? How is the future? Yeah, 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.880 that's right, I speak from the future. Well, listen, there's 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.760 nothing to worry about, or at least nothing more to 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.080 worry about than what you're worrying about right in this 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.200 very instant So um, yeah, I love that. I love 0:07:45.240 --> 0:07:49.679 that kind of existential positioning that we're starting off with, because, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.080 of course, anxiety is a fretting forward right into the future, 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:56.440 and depression is a sort of ruminating about the past. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.600 So yes, it's very fitting. So I wanted to start off, 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:02.560 I was just reading your book. I know you have 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.320 a more recent book out called This One Wild and 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:08.760 Precious Life, UM, but I am referencing your other book 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:11.400 called First We Make the Beast Beautiful, UM, A new 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.160 conversation about anxiety, and I want to quote you to you. 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.480 This was towards the end of the book, actually, but 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:23.600 it seemed fitting to start the interview. You were talking about. Uh, 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.880 you know you give you give such great advice in 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.000 this book, and you also bring up a lot of research. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:30.720 I mean, it's so well researched it's crazy. But you 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.400 say at one point also getting older does help. And 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.920 you talk about a forum you held with younger people 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:39.640 in their in their teens and twenties. UM, you and 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:41.760 I are roughly the same age in our forties, and 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.880 you said that they bristled around the idea of sitting 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.720 in anxiety, accepting it and seeing the beauty and it. 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.920 One girl blurted out, it makes me really angry. It's bullshit, 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.520 and it makes me more anxious. And I thought that 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.640 was so fitting because you and I are both Generation X, 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.560 and our anxiety, from what I read about you and 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.440 from what I know about being me started before there 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:08.280 was an Internet. Yeah, there's a there's a bunch of 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.880 things to unpack there. I think the generational divide is 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:14.719 really worth worth talking about because I'm sure you've got 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:18.679 listeners of different age groups who will relate to the 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:21.520 various aspects of what we're talking about here. So on 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.680 the one hand, we didn't have the stigmatization of having 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.280 a name put over the top of stuff, and I 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:31.200 think there is a problem in the sense that you 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.360 put a name to something and then sometimes you can 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:39.360 stop your mindful investigation. UM a lot of what we 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:42.800 had to do, I maybe go to a library or 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.200 come across something in a magazine, which then saw us 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.480 go and have conversations three months later with somebody who 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.120 might have heard of this thing called anxiety. It was 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:55.840 actually a practice in in resilience, you know what I mean, 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.880 and which could also be seen as a practice in mindfulness. 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.240 So the journ any of actually investigating your anxiety took 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.280 you to a place where you had to harden up 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.800 a bit around it, and you had to develop techniques. 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.640 Plus you you had things like delaying gratification because you 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.360 didn't get the answers straightaway. And in that space there 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.120 was a lot of um sort of stuff that you 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.319 worked out for yourself. So there's definitely that. But going 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.360 back to that quote from my book, you know, from 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:26.960 That's a discussion group, you know, that young person was 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.160 just like the idea of having to sit in it 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.360 and kind of wrestle it out. You wrestle with your 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:37.120 demons for a bit. Um. Honestly, as every spiritualist and 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.200 I don't know Youngian psychotherapist throughout history has said, we 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.559 have to sit in the discomfort. The definition of anxiety 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:51.400 is very much an inability to sit with uncertainty and discomfort. 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.920 And at least we were probably rendered choiceless pre Internet 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.440 because we had to We had to sit through listlessness, autumn, 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:04.200 not being able to fix things automatically, not having an 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.280 answer straightaway, um, not having a name and a drug 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.920 that we could turn to. And so I think there 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.240 was a lot to be said for that. At the 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.800 flip side, as you say, is we got a lot 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.640 of stuff wrong and we had to go through a 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.280 very long journey of ups and downs to arrive at 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.480 something resembling a sweet spot. And as you said, I 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.400 think I said to these young people sometimes the fixed 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.000 to anxiety is shear years on the planet. And it's 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.520 because you've you've gone through these trials and tribulations and 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.720 you've worked out your own, your own sort of formula. 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:41.440 But it's also, as I say in the book, it's 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:42.839 kind of the whole gist of the book, sorry to 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:44.840 give it away to anyone who's not read it, is 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:50.280 that this very wrestling is the meaning that we're searching for. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:55.439 Anxiety is that kind of desperate like grasping for something else, 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.440 and that something else is the meaning of life And 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.080 ironic clear it's through the grasping, through the journey of 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:04.920 getting it all wrong with anxiety, that we end up 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.440 arriving at the best, best place for understanding that meaning 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.880 within ourselves. I think that that can be tough for people. 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.600 Now for me, honestly, I feel like it's kind of 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.480 a relief. And I don't know if that's the inherent 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.640 laziness that I have, but really truly finding out and 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.880 honestly believing it that the answer is there is no 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:28.440 answer was such a relief. I don't think that's lazy, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:33.000 that's not lazy. Gosh, it's a huge gangean um. I 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.439 mean it means then it's it's this, it's an acknowledgement 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:41.200 of the ultimate freedom right that we have then to 0:12:41.240 --> 0:12:44.320 determine our own path. And as you recall, actually set 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:47.440 off the journey by realizing there is no guide book 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.680 to life and no one knows what they're doing, which, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:52.720 of course another thing you realize when you reach a 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.120 certain age, don't you look around and go, oh my god, 0:12:55.840 --> 0:12:58.040 no one actually knows what they're doing. And that is 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.160 a relief because then you've got the possibility. It opens 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:06.000 up the possibility to the fact that you can reposition 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:11.200 something like anxiety. You can choose how to frame it. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.920 And as I say, a lesson that I got from 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.720 his holiness, the Dalai Lama's never a part. I know 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:20.160 exactly what you're gonna say, I said, doing my I 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.559 got an interview with him. I was the ambassador, the 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.040 Australian Bassador, the Dalai Lama. Don't you love it? Um? 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.760 Great title, um, And I just had to mention it 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:29.400 here because if you get a title like that, you've 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:33.160 got to share it with therefore on right, So um, 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.679 I got to do an interview for a publication and 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:39.079 they suggested I ask one question and one question only, 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:41.600 so it turned out to be how do I stop 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:45.480 my mind from chattering so frenetically? How do I shut 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:50.280 my mind up? And his answer was don't bother. He said, 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:52.840 there's better things to do. You Like if you went 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:56.080 and sat in a cave on a mountain, you know, 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.200 for two years and meditated, perhaps you could do it. 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.040 And he said that of time, waste of time. Um, 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.880 you know, I love his I love his like casual, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.040 just sense of humor almost and just sort of like whatever, 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.600 like silly, silly, like we're not doing that, you know. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.200 And he said, I don't do that because my focus 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.880 is living a life of service. And his word for 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.120 that is altruism. He thinks we should be focusing on altruism. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.720 And what I took from that is that you can actually, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:29.040 like why wait to be less anxious, to live a purposeful, 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:33.600 beautiful life. You can be both. So that was kind 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:37.880 of the revelation, the realization that I got from that 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.000 opening of realizing recast things as I need to. It's 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.240 not like, um, for for anyone who's hoping that someday 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.480 they'll cure their anxiety, and of course you can. I mean, 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.040 I've I really don't suffer anxiety. Every day like I 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:54.400 used to, Um, But it's part of me, and it exists. 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.600 It's always there, whether or not it's being loud or 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.360 quiet one day. But I have a great life. There 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.520 was not this Oh my life got good when the 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.200 anxiety went. It was like when I started fading it, 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.000 you know. And and again I do think that that 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.280 can be really scary. I don't know if someone had 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:14.440 said that to me a long time ago, would I 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.000 have liked that answer, you know, because they didn't realize 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.400 how good I could feel, just feeling even a little 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.840 bit better. Well, yeah, And I think what I tried 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:27.280 to do in that book is to show that once 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.800 I stopped trying to fight it and make it better, 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.640 so that I could then get onto this wonderful other life. Right. 0:15:34.000 --> 0:15:36.640 I thought it was all run up, Right, All the 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.760 run up was about me, um, sorting myself out, you know, 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:44.280 being like everybody else, finally finding that guide book to life, 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.280 this mythical guide to life. I think, I say, at 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.120 the beginning of that book, I think I was on 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.800 the toilet or putting the hanging the washing out for 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.800 mom the day that God handed out the guide Book 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.920 to life. You know, Um, I sort of just missed 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.800 it somewhere along the line. So I think that what 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:05.000 I what I try to do is explain that not 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.280 only can you live with anxiety, but I switched it 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.240 up a gear even further and say you can actually 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:16.280 thrive because of anxiety. And that's where the title comes 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:19.560 into play. First we make the best beautiful, which comes 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:23.480 from a Chinese proverb, and it's this idea that if 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.960 we can reframe anxiety and stand back from it and 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:31.160 see what it's truly about, Like, why does anxiety exists 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.640 as an emotion in the human experience, Well, it exists 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:37.640 because it keeps us safe and it has also progressed 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:42.960 the human experience. It was the neurotic um O c 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:48.480 D bipolar person who probably walked over the hill and 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.120 saw people with these things called a wheel and came 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.800 back and went, hey, guys, they've invented a wheel and 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.760 we should get onto that kind of thing. So it 0:16:56.840 --> 0:17:00.720 was the anxious person that pushed boundaries, that was particularly 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.119 cautious and would keep a clan safe, but also push boundaries, 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:08.400 as I say, and the statistics bear out. Um seven 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:13.359 percent of poets have anxiety, seven percent of scientists have anxiety, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.960 almost ad of world leaders who led during a time 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:22.399 of high intensity crisis like a war, were anxious and 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.920 in fact, in most cases were bipolar. If you think 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:29.760 of Winston churchill Um and so forth, Artists, philosophers all 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:33.919 had um what in many ways where crip was crippling anxiety. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:38.040 Their contribution and their art form, their inventions came about 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.639 via their struggle with that that that inattention. So once 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.040 you start to see it through that lens, you go, Okay, 0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:50.199 this probably isn't something I should fight, how but I 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:53.840 harness it and actually make it into my superpower. And 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.719 that's the artful, more joyous way to do the dance. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.040 And that's what I'm interested in, yeh. And I love 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:06.240 that because it's different than the other. Um. The thing 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:08.639 that sometimes people can get stuck in is if I 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.639 get help for my depression or anxiety, then I'll lose 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:15.760 my spark and I won't be a great author. I 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.720 have to be tortured to be great. And that's not 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:21.800 what you're saying there. It's it's saying that you don't 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:25.680 you can be um suffering with something like an anxiety 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:29.159 and use it to your benefit or just let it 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:30.800 sit with you, you know, let it ride in the 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.440 car with you while you're I mean, like you were 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:35.840 saying in your book, Darwin had panic attacks, which I 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:39.040 just love. Yeah, that's right, I mean, and I'd say 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:41.600 that he was able to come up with these theories 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.320 and these contributions because of the panic attacks. Now that's 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.919 not to say that you should just let out the 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.160 string on that wild cut of your anxiety, um, because 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.239 you can get very, very wobbly. And really, again, if 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.879 we're going to talk about the artfulness of this, the 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.080 beauty of this, it is about finding that sweet spot 0:19:02.080 --> 0:19:04.800 where you can modulate it so that it serves you, 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:08.520 and then that becomes that becomes your journey. And I 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.560 describe it. You might remember the bit in the book 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.240 where I talk about how having the mental illness is 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:15.800 like carrying a shallow bowl of water around for the 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.520 rest of your life, and that usual works for me. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.119 You've got to stay steady, so um, and if you don't, 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:24.879 then you start to get a bit unbalanced and the 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.840 water starts to slosh and it's flying all over everybody else, 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.960 annoying loved ones um, and you have to keep going 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.280 back to the source to refill. I love taking analogy 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:40.600 too far. No, I keep going. So and so you 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.399 spend your life doing that, you know, crushing burning, crushing burning, 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.240 rather than getting on with what you really want to 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:50.000 be getting on with. So it is, Um, it's not 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.800 about just going, oh, don't take your medication, don't see 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.919 a therapist, just let that anxiety go at the full throttle. No, 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.399 you do need to find this nice balanced place. And 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:05.879 part of the balanced place comes about from having compassionate 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.159 understanding of the place that anxiety plays in history but 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.040 also in your own life. So it's this kind of 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:20.720 lovely gentle wrestle with all of these factors. Um. But mostly, 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:25.639 mostly it's about understanding things through a different framework. I 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.760 mean a lot of people get blown away when they 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:32.120 find out that anxiety only became an official mental disorder 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.600 and entered the d s M, which is the diagnostic 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.879 tool using the States and in Australia. Um in and 0:20:38.920 --> 0:20:41.359 what do you know, it was one year after the 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:44.359 first anti anxiety drug was invented. I don't know if 0:20:44.359 --> 0:20:48.919 anyone finds out an odd coincidence. I found that fascinating 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:50.919 in your book because I thought, well, my god, you 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.080 know it was only five years after that that I 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.800 had my first panic attack. I mean, you know, it 0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.600 wasn't even defined into what you're saying it was. It's 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:00.600 kind of odd that it was defined right when the 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:04.400 drug was invented. And it's not to say anxiety isn't real, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.800 but it made me think reading that part. God, what 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:09.879 if anxiety is sort of just the human condition, you know, 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:15.920 and it's not this disorder in the everyday sense. Yeah, well, 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.359 but the thing is it is the human condition. To 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.480 be anxious is to be human. To go back to 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.199 that thread that I was that I lost temporarily, it 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.040 probably as a result of my age and my varying 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:34.280 closer to to that existential end point. Um is that. Yes, 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:38.720 So in nineteen pre night anxiety was seeing as part 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:41.240 of the human existence, right, it was. It was what 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.879 we did, We got anxious and so on. Now, Um, 0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.520 the thing is is when we actually pathologize anxiety, when 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.119 we put it into the d s M, when we 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.240 invent drugs for it that dampen anxiety. What that does 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.040 is two things. First of all, it actually stigmatizes anxiety 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:00.239 as a problem, as a bigger problem than it is. 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:03.640 And so what we do then is it then creates 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:07.560 imperative to not be anxious, So then we get anxious 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:09.560 about being anxious. And as we know, the worst thing 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.520 about anxiety is that horrible death spiral of being anxious 0:22:12.560 --> 0:22:14.920