1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. Hello, 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: name is Noel. They call me Ben. You are here, 6 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: You are you, and that makes this stuff they don't 7 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: want you to know. Featuring, of course, our super producer 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: Paul Mission Controlled Decond, who I have a have it 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: on good authority, has never himself purchased something involved with 10 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: the murder. Oh well, that's nice. That is certainly a 11 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: claim to fame that Paul can attest to. He's got 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: a whole heck of a lot of cool posters though 13 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: from movies, right right, and then murders may occur in 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: those works of fiction, they definitely do. But Mission Control 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: is not the kind of cat to go out and 16 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: read about maybe a series of stabbings and say I 17 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: need to buy that knife, I want a piece of 18 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: that action. I want a shoe from a victim or 19 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, I was I couldn't believe that 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: that existed before we did this episode. Ben. It's a 21 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: weird thing. Of course, Paul, I promised we will stop 22 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: using you as an example that, as far as we know, 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: none of us, Paul included, have purchased this sort of 24 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: memorabilia previously on stuff they want you to know. We 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: had explored numerous stories of serial killers, specific cases such 26 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: as our unfortunately ongoing uncought serial killer series, and larger 27 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: phenomena such as the Highway of Tears or even the 28 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,639 Speaker 1: East Area rapist slash original night Stalker. Right right, Uh, 29 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: D'Angelo had just been caught, and we had mentioned this, 30 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: I think just briefly in a in an earlier episode. 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 1: We might have to do an entire follow up on 32 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: that because it leads to some wide reaching implications for 33 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: genetic testing DNA basis. Didn't we do a whole episode 34 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: on the We did a whole original We did? We did, Yeah, 35 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: and uh, we wondered whether he would be caught. We 36 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: did speculate on his age, and overall we we weren't wrong. 37 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: Remember we said he might be listening. He could have 38 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: been listening. That's true. He could have. I don't know 39 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: if he's a fan of podcast allegedly as a recluse, 40 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: but they found him through some relatives DNA. Well, we'll 41 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: we'll dig into that, so stay tuned. One thing's for sure, though, 42 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: there are probably going to be people who attempt to 43 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 1: um to associate themselves with this in one way or another. 44 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's a it's a very cold comfort for 45 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: the surviving victims, and it's a it's a closure point 46 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: for people who spent years, decades of unpaid time investigating this. 47 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: Today we're touching on serial killers, but in a little 48 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: bit of a different way. We're not looking at so 49 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: many specific cases, and we're not tracing murders themselves. Instead, 50 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: we're exploring an industry that sprang up around these grizzly tragedies, 51 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: a monetization of monsters made flesh. And here are the facts. 52 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: We've already explored how law enforcement and criminologists defined serial killers, 53 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: along with the problems inherent in that definition, and the 54 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: difference between the way these murders are depicted in fiction 55 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: and the way they actually behave. But we haven't explored 56 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: the other side of the dark mirror. We haven't looked 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: at the public fascination with these crimes and the public 58 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: fascination with the people who commit them. Yeah, and this 59 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: stuff probably might let's say, might not apply to you, 60 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: but it's overwhelmingly likely that somebody you are an acquaintance with. 61 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: Harbor's this weird curiosity. I say weird for me and 62 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: for I guess for the social mores of the world. 63 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: It is a bit strange, this fascination with serial killer killers, murderers, 64 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: people who go out and take lives. Um. People like 65 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: this read exhaustive biographies. They read accounts of the the 66 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: actual killers activities, what occurs before the m o of 67 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: the killer. Um. They can likely compare differences in motivation 68 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: between killers and execution and apprehension for multiple killers. So 69 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: we're talking about someone who's able to say, well, the 70 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,679 Speaker 1: difference between John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer is the following. Yeah, 71 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: and would will sit down with you at a bar 72 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: and tell you the differences for an hour. I have 73 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: been guilty of that. Yeah, I think, And UM, I 74 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: think everybody has that fascination to some degree, right, Yeah, 75 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: because it is so different from normal everyday activities. Yeah. 76 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 1: And there's a book we found from called Why We 77 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Love Serial Killers, in which criminologist Dr Scott Bond explores 78 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: the nature of this and he notes the same things 79 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: we've seen in previous arguments about this. Fascination says there's 80 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: a difference between perceptions of killers and reality. Uh. And 81 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: he does a lot of myth busting in this book. 82 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: If you were at all interested in this topic, we 83 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: highly recommend it. One of the myths bust is that 84 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,359 Speaker 1: the majority of serial killers are believed to be white males. However, 85 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: according to the FBI, the race by race, the racial 86 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: breakdown of serial killers is about the same proportion as 87 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: that of the US population at large, and based on 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: the Radford University serial Killer database, which holy smokes, is 89 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: a real thing. Uh, only forty six of serial killers 90 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: since nineteen have been white men. And that's using data 91 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: for a little less than four thousand killers, or maybe 92 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 1: right at four thousand now that they've added the night stalker. 93 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: Here's a thing, you know, none of us, including Paul 94 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: michelin Man mission Control, decond own any of this um 95 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: these keepsakes of any kind of serial killer. And yet 96 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: I'm I'm fond of serial killer movies. I'm not as 97 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: into true crime as it would seem literally everyone else 98 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: on the planet is. But it is obviously a huge 99 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: booming business. Where do you think that fascination comes from 100 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:40,119 Speaker 1: that makes you know, the average Jane and John Doe 101 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: off the street want to kind of dig into some 102 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: of the stuff, whether it's in reading books about it right, 103 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: listen to true crime podcast, watching films, or you know, 104 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: exploring some of this uh this darkness. Yeah, and we 105 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: have to we'll stick with this perception of of serial 106 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: killers being overwhelmingly white and male to hit on this 107 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: because when we bring up fiction in the zeitgeist, what 108 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: we see is that even if the facts bear out 109 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: that not all these killers or white males, the ones 110 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: who get remembered in pop culture do tend to be 111 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: white male killers, and Bond has a couple of theories 112 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: about this. He says the gender difference may come down 113 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: to a matter of method. Female killers, in his argument, 114 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: tend to be less uh use less gory methods like 115 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: poison and rather than shooting. But one of the most 116 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: famous or infamous female serial killers in the U s, 117 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: Eileen Wornos, was murdering people with a gun. Bond thinks 118 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: that's the reason why she reached fame. But only nine percent, 119 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: around nine percent of serial killer since nineteen ten have 120 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: been women, uh have been African American, and few have 121 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: achieved celebrity status. There's the disturbing thing there is it 122 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: choice of victims. Bond believes most serial killers tend to 123 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: kill within their own race, and that white victims, especially 124 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: white female victims, usually get wider media attentions. So there's 125 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: a there's a loop here between victims and killers and 126 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: the media. And so this racial bias, as disturbing as 127 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: it is, is real, and according to Bond, he says, 128 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: although it may not seem fair, affluent white neighborhoods are 129 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: given priority over poor black or Latino neighborhoods by state 130 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: officials in the assignment of valuable policing resources. This negatively 131 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: impacts the ability of law enforcement personnel to pursue serial 132 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: murder cases in poor racial minority communities. So society is 133 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: valuing these victims less and it's making as a result, uh, 134 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: it's making the crimes terrific as this sounds, uh, be 135 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: presented or perceived as somehow less important. And this means 136 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: that the infamy of the killer also becomes lower. Yeah, 137 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: because they're they're not spending the resources to catch the 138 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: people that do them. And when you're not spending the 139 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: resources to catch them, you're not getting the media attention. 140 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: You're not. I mean, there's all he Bond makes all 141 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: these unfortunate points about the reality of our situation racial bifurcation, 142 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: and so there to that point, if we if we 143 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: use this information and we we ask ourselves the same 144 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 1: question Noel was asking. You're asking about fascination with serial killers. 145 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: We have to ask ourselves, does this mean we are 146 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: more fascinated with a stereotype rather than an actual phenomenon. 147 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: But we can't go too far, too fast down that path, 148 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: because it turns out there's solid evidence for the American 149 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: obsession with serial killers, and it's not particularly promising news. 150 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 1: There have been more than d serial killers in the 151 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: US since nineteen hundred. England, who has the next highest total, 152 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: has had only hundred and forty two twenty two. We 153 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: also in the States have higher rates of violent crime, 154 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: and that might be why some killers are more famous 155 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: than others, because again throughout the world, even though serial 156 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 1: killers exist in other countries throughout the world, when people 157 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: picture a serial killer, they usually picture either Jack the 158 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: Ripper or someone from the States. Yeah, this is highly bothersome, 159 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: this American obsession with it, And I wonder how much. 160 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, there's there are all things that we can 161 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: we can go down, and there's there's more that we're 162 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: getting in here about fiction, about Americans obsession with fictionalizing 163 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: these kinds of things. It does feel like the advent 164 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: of the film industry in the United States probably is 165 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: linked with with this. But yes, that I was getting 166 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: at it's like we're not obsessed with it and that 167 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,200 Speaker 1: we empathize with killers or that we see ourselves in 168 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: serial Killer. I think there's some part of us that 169 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: maybe is fascinated because it makes us feel superior in 170 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 1: some way. It's like we do not have this compulsion 171 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: or you know, I'm wondering. I'm asking you guys, like, 172 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: where where do you think it comes from? Because I've 173 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: always kind of been stuck on that because it is 174 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 1: so grizzly and unpleasant, and yet it is something that 175 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: seems to catch people's imaginations, you know, the world over. Yeah. Yeah, 176 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: And it's true that many of the stories, the way 177 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: they're presented, whether by just the facts Criminologist, or whether 178 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: by the film industry, they all have the marks of 179 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: gripping fiction. High stakes danger, fire knives, mysteries, and clear 180 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: heroes and villains often right, and research shows I think 181 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: this is pretty fascinating. Research shows that there are a 182 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: couple of groups of people who enjoy these graphic, frightening stories, 183 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: and they can have a number of very different motivations. 184 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: The study from about adolescence said that some were gore watchers, 185 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: meaning they professed and and like a confidential environment that 186 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: they were watching horrific movies because they enjoyed the blood 187 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: and guts. They tend to have low levels of empathy, 188 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: strong need for adventure seeking. And then there were thrill 189 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: watchers who got the adrenaline Russia, being scared, that roller coaster, 190 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: feeling right, and they have high levels of adventure seeking, 191 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: but they also have, you know, high levels of empathy. 192 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: And the gore watchers identified with the killers rather than 193 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: the victims. The thrill watchers identified with neither the I 194 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: guess you would say they identify with the plot. You know. 195 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,120 Speaker 1: Just so it's not just um all in our minds, 196 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: our spartphones are television. There's a physiological thing that happens here. 197 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: Just like we talked about dopamine and social media. You 198 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: get a increased heart rate, increased breathing rate, increased blood 199 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,599 Speaker 1: glucose levels, and you also get again a fit a 200 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: dose dopamine when you're watching these things. It's the neurotransmitter 201 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: famously associated with pleasure, mainly food and sex, but also 202 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: occurs during time times of fear, and it's good for 203 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: our survival. I mean, we don't have to go true 204 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: granular here, but there is physiological evidence and so in 205 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: a very real way, depictions of serial killers can function 206 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: for adults the way that monster movies function for kids. Well, yeah, 207 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: my son writer is a bit too young to do 208 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: this kind of thing, although he we did recently watch 209 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: Toy Story in which there's that the little kid next 210 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: door that tortures toys. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, 211 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: it's scarier than I had remembered. And you know, about 212 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: two and a half it's like, okay, maybe we shouldn't 213 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: watch something like this anymore. But of course, you know, 214 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,079 Speaker 1: he can handle something that has a a monster monster 215 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: just fine, and he thinks it's fun, not you know, 216 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,839 Speaker 1: nothing to graphic, but something like Wanna that has a 217 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 1: big volcano monster in it. You just think it's because 218 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,679 Speaker 1: it's I don't know, it's it's not as real as 219 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: a little kid that's actually scary. How do you handle Halloween? 220 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but for me as 221 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: a kid, Halloween was my favorite holiday. And it has 222 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: some scary themes in there that maybe don't really hit 223 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 1: you when you're when you're a child. Well, yeah, at 224 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: his age, you just kind of have to keep him 225 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: away from it a lot of it. But there's you know, 226 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: dressed up like a dragon. Come on, that's fun because 227 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: your kids a bit a little bit older. Yeah, Shell, 228 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: she dressed up as a creepy um dead doll last 229 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: year with like corpse makeup on stuff. She's not. But 230 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: she also dressed up as Satan when she was only four, 231 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: so she's got a she's got a history creepy, creepy 232 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: Halloween costumes. She's all about the spooky stuff except when 233 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: she's not. Except when it's too much. She likes to 234 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: control it, you know what I mean. And that's the thing. 235 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: Sometimes you don't know, like that seen in toy story 236 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: to one kid who could be totally fine, the kid, 237 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: it could traumatize them for life, you know. Well, just 238 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: to jump back into the dopamine dosing that people get 239 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: from watching this kind of fiction and experiencing it through 240 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: a crime drama on television or UM some of the 241 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: murder shows that exist throughout it is. It's really interesting 242 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: to me that that you can sit on your couch, 243 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: or you can sit in a movie theater and get 244 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: those same feelings that you would if you were out 245 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: having a fantastical meal somewhere, or let's say, being amorous 246 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: with your your loved one. UM and we talked in 247 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: our Hidden Brain episodes about this is one of the 248 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that horror movies are so good 249 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: for that kind of date situation, because it's causing these 250 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: things to occur in your brain. But when you get 251 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: into the mind of some of the adolescents who are 252 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: the gore watchers, that frightens me. It feels like there 253 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: needs to be some kind of process of uh cataloging 254 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: the gore watchers. Oh that sounds awful when I say 255 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: it out loud, but I feel like they should. They 256 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: should at least be on the radar. I don't know. 257 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: You know, it's now more than ever it's possible to 258 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: do something like that. But the question is should we 259 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: agreed as a society. But they're always saving lives anyway, 260 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 1: where where does this all leave us? This physiological stuff, 261 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 1: it's real. The stereotypes are real, the facts are remain disturbing. 262 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: We'll explore this after a word from our sponsors. And 263 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: what we see now is that the mythical killers, those 264 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: who don't fit into the existing sort of narrative, are 265 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: becoming separated from the facts of their cases. So with 266 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: each new film, novel, or other fictional iteration about someone 267 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: like h Ed Gaing right the loose bags for the 268 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: Texas Chainsaw massacre film, the franchise, any part of the 269 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: story that doesn't fit into the mold of deranged, middle 270 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: aged white guy, possibly with a dark secret. Any any 271 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: stuff that doesn't fit there is just shed. It's just 272 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: on the cutting room floor, and the stereotype becomes more streamlined. 273 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: And now there's this increasing trend. I'm really interested in 274 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: in hearing opinions on this. There's this increasing trend of 275 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: serial killers as protagonist. I watched Dexter. I thought it 276 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: was cool for the first few seasons, and then it 277 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: jumped the shark pretty seriously. Yeah, well there's another one. 278 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: Did you guys watch Luther at all? I like Luther 279 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: a lot. The Alice Morgan character from the first episode. 280 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: I won't spoil it too much because it's relatively new, 281 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,359 Speaker 1: but it's a straight up serial killer that becomes the 282 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: love interest. Like what, Yeah, it's sort of like one 283 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: of those like tortured loves too or is this forbidden 284 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,400 Speaker 1: love kind of situation? And she's a threat to him 285 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: as well, Yeah, pretty pretty constantly. No, I see what 286 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: you're saying. And she is designed. That character is designed 287 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: to make you to to kind of appeal to you, 288 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: do to make you like see from her side, you know, 289 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: because even now we'll be getting too much in the spoiltarritories. 290 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: But some of the crimes that she commits, she has 291 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: this really intense rationalization for committing that you almost can 292 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: kind of buy into in a way. It's weird. Well 293 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: that's what all of these do. I am so excited 294 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: to watch this show. No, that's very good. Um so 295 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: behind behind the curtain, both Matt and Will have much 296 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: much better taste than me in general. So if you 297 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: guys have some advice on the show, I am in 298 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: also in dress Elbow is dude, I mean, come on, 299 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: just watching for him? Is he a real smoke show? 300 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: I heard that last week tonight, I like this. Yeah, 301 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: we didn't make that one enough, folks. That's that's all 302 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: John Oliver or his writers. So yeah, so we identify 303 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: with these people, right. One of in the one of 304 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: the most famous examples, of course, is had him Elector 305 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: by the third novel, he's pretty much a tortured anti 306 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,359 Speaker 1: hero that eats people. Well, that's kind of what I 307 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: was getting a too earlier. Is trying to kind of 308 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: like come to put my finger on or put a 309 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 1: collective thumbs on what this is. Like, I feel like 310 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 1: that um identifying feature is almost an evolution because, like 311 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: you know, earlier serial killer films, typically the killer is 312 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: you don't even know who it is. It's just this unseen, 313 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: murderous force of chaos and destruction. It's a monster. It's 314 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: a monster exactly. But now you know, because we need more, 315 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: we have to twist it around to make it where 316 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: well we kind of see where this person is coming from. 317 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: This that like, I kind of like Dr Lecter. He's interesting, 318 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,199 Speaker 1: but isn't that closer to reality? Probably an actual human, 319 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: three dimensional character that is doing awful things. It's true, 320 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: but it's separated from the fiction part of it. I'm 321 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: wondering why the fascination with true crime and grizzly accounts 322 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: of crime scenes and um serial killer stories that are 323 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: you know, um the subject of lots of nonfiction and 324 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: obviously the podcast industry is kind of lousy with the stuff. 325 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: Right now, You're welcome, Thanks, thank you one of the 326 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: masterminds behind the enormously fascinating Atlanta Monster podcast. Well, what 327 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 1: aspect of it is is we all like we all 328 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: like our tragedies at an arm's length, and things like 329 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: Penny Dreadfuls were super popular. This um focus on gore 330 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: is is somehow linked to our understanding of our own survival. 331 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: And I love that you mentioned the evolution from faceless 332 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 1: monster to three dimensional character, because in older days these 333 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: things were straight up cautionary tales. Don't go into the woods, 334 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: the wolf will lead you. Look at this girl of 335 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: ill repute out late the mean streets of London. There's 336 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: a lot of victim blaming and this stuff, and it 337 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: still happens in horror movies today, and unfortunately it happens 338 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: sometimes with victims of real life killers. But I think 339 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,360 Speaker 1: part of it. No, you raised a good point when 340 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: you said, um, you mentioned superiority. I am not that monster, right, 341 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: I am not that victim. If I'm in a horror 342 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: movie and I hear a door creek by the front 343 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: of the haunted cabin, I get back in my Toyota torcell, 344 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: hope it starts and drive away. Certainly, don't run up 345 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: the stairs to run or go who's there? You're gonna 346 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: fumble the keys, yeah, and then the car will will 347 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: choke A boy, you've got four flat tires, buddy. So 348 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: maybe it's our way of safely experiencing and exploring these 349 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: things and then on the dark side. At some point, 350 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: whenever we as individuals see or hear about a crime 351 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: or a social transgression, whether it's shoplifting, whether it's cheating 352 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: on one spouse, or whether it's like, uh, swindling someone 353 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: out of a deal, like we hear about corporate scandals 354 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: or something you're about Mark Zuckerberg and whatnot, on some 355 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: level we all kind of do a gut check and 356 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: run it past ourselves and think would I do that? 357 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: You know, in in some cases there's a threshold. It 358 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: might be, well, I'm not going to steal ten dollars 359 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: from petty cash at a company. But if I steal 360 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 1: a hundred and fifty million and I get an island, 361 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: then you know, yeah, maybe maybe I'll just won't have 362 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: a Facebook profile. First thing you have to do is 363 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: work for a company that has that kind of money. 364 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: That's true, that's true. But you see what I'm saying though, 365 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: It's like we we we and we ask ourselves. Am 366 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: I someone who would kill? What would it take for 367 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: me to kill? You know? Like, would I kill to 368 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: avenge loss of a relative or a loved one? What 369 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 1: I killed to protect one? That's the answer most people have, right, Yeah, 370 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: what I killed just for the thrill of it? Right? 371 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: Would I kill if I felt there was a divine 372 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 1: message compelling me to? Like Abraham and the Bible, Yeah, 373 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: if God asks you to sacrifice your son, I'm just 374 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and say please don't, please don't. God 375 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 1: will be okay with it. Yeah. I think it's a 376 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: very strange story. But regardless of this fascination, you may 377 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 1: ask yourselves, why are we talking so much about this? 378 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: Because we're walking toward something stranger. This lion leonization and 379 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: in some cases, deification of serial murders, regardless of what 380 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: the motive tion is, leads to strange and disturbing situations. 381 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: You know, there are copycat killers, people who use a 382 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: ongoing killers activities as a as a cover in some 383 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 1: cases to get away with murder and pin it on 384 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: the other person or even an homage to that killer. True. Yeah, 385 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: And then there are obsessive fans of incarcerated murderers and 386 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 1: serial killers. They supply prisoners with money, they send books 387 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: and other stuff to them, and in some cases they 388 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: marry them while they're in prison. Yep. Charles Manson is 389 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: a great example of that several times. I believe you're correct, man, 390 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:47,919 Speaker 1: I believe it's he's been married several times. Man. But 391 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: that's not all. Here's where it gets crazy. Now we're 392 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: entering the world of serial killer memorabilia. What this episode 393 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: is all about. It's also called murderabilia, and it's that. 394 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 1: Of course, word has just been the portmant to portmanteau 395 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: of the of murder and memorabilia, which is it's fun 396 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: to say, So what is what is this? These are relics, 397 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: my friend, Yeah, they're relics. They can be any number 398 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: of things though right sort of talked about at the 399 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: top of the show. But they can be everything. From 400 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 1: an artifact generated by incarcerated serial killer or something they 401 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: did when they were out in the world. But that 402 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: ups the value a lot if they did it while 403 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: they were actually on their spree at large. Right. UM. 404 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: A lot of these killers get into crafting, you know, 405 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,959 Speaker 1: in there in prison, Like John Wayne Gaycy became an 406 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,479 Speaker 1: avid painter UM while he was on death row, and 407 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: his paintings to this day are I think some of 408 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: the most valuable items in circulation in this pretty small, 409 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: close knit community. But it could also be UM artifacts 410 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: associated with the murder, like, for example, dirt from John 411 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: Wayne Gaycy's crawl space. Um, you can find a pair 412 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: of his clown shoes that he wore. UM. I'm not 413 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: to make this all about Gaycy, but um, he is 414 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: one of the biggest kind of stars of this uh 415 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: this scene. There was a um an action figure that 416 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer made that had human bits baked into it. 417 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Are you serious? Yeah, all kinds of crazy stuff, man. 418 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: So basically, anything you can think of that would be 419 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: associated with any crime, the more grizzly and the more 420 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: kind of outlandish, the better. That's that's that's what we're 421 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: talking about. And then there's this whole scene of people 422 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: trading this stuff, and there's a lot of interesting legal 423 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: ins and outs they go into this whole world, right Ben, Yeah, yeah, No, 424 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,159 Speaker 1: all three of us have have seen this stuff firsthand, 425 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: but we have seen it in museums, right, Noel, you 426 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: went to was it the Murder Museum in California? It's 427 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: the Museum of Death Museum in Los Angeles. And and 428 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: where did you guys go in d C? I believe 429 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: it was the National Museum of Crime and Punishment. Cool, 430 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,680 Speaker 1: and I think we both saw uh, some stuff from 431 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacy in those museums. Yes, that's right. Yeah, 432 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 1: ours was like a clown suit and a couple of 433 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: other things of his. But it wasn't just serial killers 434 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: in the places where we went. It was also the 435 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: one about crime in particular. Was you know, the car 436 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: from somebody who went on a crime spree that wasn't 437 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 1: exactly a serial killer, but had murdered a bunch of 438 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: people crime spree, um, a lot of other things like that. Yeah, 439 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: and it's still memorabilia, right, and weapons from killers from 440 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: the wild West, things like that. Yeah. The one in 441 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: Hollywood is a little more on the prurient side. I 442 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: would say, Um, it's filled with things like crime scene 443 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,919 Speaker 1: photos of dismembered bodies. Um, a lot of photos taken 444 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: by killers themselves. There's one where a couple went on 445 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: a spree and like dismembered several victims. I think it 446 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: was the woman's ex husband and they like sever the 447 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: penis and things like that, and there are photographs of 448 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: all this. So this place in particular is not for 449 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: the faint of heart. There's a whole room devoted to 450 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: old embalming techniques, and there's a video that plays on 451 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: a loop of like an old embalming video tutorial that 452 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: starts off innocently enough and just gets kind of drop 453 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: dead horrendously graphic after a while. Um, but yeah, but 454 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: they had. There's a whole room devoted to the Heaven's 455 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: Gate called the Marshall Apple White Thing, where there is 456 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of a almost a diorama set up where there 457 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: is a body in the bed covered with a purple 458 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: blanket and uh, apple whites. Um kind of sermons are 459 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: playing on a loop on a TV, a little small 460 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: VHS TV and it's a bunk bed kind of It's 461 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: like a whole meant to recreate the that mass suicide 462 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: that happened with the Heaven's Gate cult. So really cool, 463 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: really small. Um. I really recommend checking it out. But 464 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: it's not for the faint of heart, but really really 465 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: interesting stuff. And that the thing that was most interesting 466 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: that I saw there was a notebook had letters between 467 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: a killer and an art dealer who had been purchasing 468 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: this killer's work, and the killer wrote letters back to 469 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: this art dealer threatening to sue because they had not 470 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: received payment. And there's a real specific reason for why 471 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: that might have been, isn't there been? Yes, there is 472 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: a very specific reason. Uh. You see, we've talked about 473 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: how almost anything could qualifies this stuff. We've talked about 474 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: how we have seen this stuff in person in a museum. 475 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: But when we get into the world of private collectors, 476 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: when we get into this idea of this trade, we 477 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: immediately enter a ongoing, an intense debate about legality. Should 478 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: it be legal to traffic these items on a private 479 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,880 Speaker 1: individual scale or to be more of an Indiana Jones approach? 480 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: Can any of us do a good Harrison Ford? No, 481 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: I can't. That may be good, yeah, man, your ear 482 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: leader at this he's doing a hard shake. I can't 483 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: do a Harrison Ford, I don't. I don't know what 484 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: well can you do? Get off my plane? Terrorists? Um, 485 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: that's great. You've killed my I didn't kill my wife. 486 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: Fugitive Right, those are great? Will you say? Will you 487 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: say the line um days belonging on museum? There we 488 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: go Indiana Joe and slaves and gentlemen? Uh so, yeah? 489 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: Should they? Should they be stuck in a museum? And 490 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: museums can use this stuff under the auspice of an 491 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: educational experience. Right, we are giving you knowledge about times 492 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: past and their effect on the presence, for sure. And 493 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: I think the key here too is that third party 494 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: curatorial kind of aspect, right, And the thing was getting 495 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: at um is that the reason that this this person 496 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: had not been paid or they would have no legal 497 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 1: recourse to sue the art dealer that was not paying them, 498 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: is because it's illegal for perpetrators of crimes like this 499 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: too benefit financially from the legacy of their horrific acts. 500 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: Known as the son of Sad Longs. Right. Well, it 501 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: certainly didn't work out for the National Crime Museum in Washington, 502 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: d C. That we visited, because since it has been 503 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: permanently closed. Yeah, we really really wrecked the place. But 504 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: that's the thing though, it's like how do you get 505 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: this stuff? And you know, we'll we'll get into more 506 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: of this in a little bit, but some of it 507 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: comes from uh, direct involvement, in direct communication with the criminals, 508 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: and that's when you start getting into this gray territory 509 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: where it's like, how do I entice them to make 510 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: work for me? You know, make stuff just for me 511 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: so that I can sell it. I mean, someone is literally, 512 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: whether it's a dealer or the proprietor of a museum 513 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: or what have you benefiting financially from the suffering of 514 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:10,959 Speaker 1: hundreds thousands potentially, Right, and the son of Sam laws 515 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 1: are not not federal yet their state by state and 516 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: they're they're a little bit different. We can explore some 517 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: of this, but the primary question is should someone who 518 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: has committed multiple murders or any murder, should they be 519 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:31,840 Speaker 1: able to profit themselves? Right like this art dealer, Uh, 520 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: should they sell a painting for five hundred dollars and 521 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: then give four hundred to someone who was a cannibal 522 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: or is accountable and just happens to be locked up 523 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: now dormant cannibal, a dormant, accountable and waiting. Uh. It's 524 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: weird because like with Gaycy, Gaycey is dead, right, So 525 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: people who are in this industry can sell this dead 526 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: man's stuff to each other. And that is not illegal 527 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: right now, but it's frowned upon. In two thousand one, 528 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: eBay stopped all of these traffic, all of these sorts 529 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: of transactions. As you has remember eBay a while back. 530 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, two thousand one so long ago. Now 531 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: you could buy all kinds of weird stuff. I bought 532 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: a haunted accordion, allegedly haunted accordion. I had no idea 533 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: that accordion was haunted. It certainly doesn't sound normally. This 534 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: guy's sort of a ghostly quality to it. It was 535 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: advertised as a haunted accordion. And I'm not going to 536 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: say where I was at in life, but it was 537 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: pretty late at night, three hours of the morning, and 538 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: I said, that's what I need. What's the haunted markup 539 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 1: for an accordion? It's got to be pretty steep. Uh. 540 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: It was not my best financial decision. But um, but 541 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: that aside, you know, that just says you can That 542 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: just shows you can buy anything on eBay, but effective 543 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: May seventeen, two thousand one, items associated with quote notorious 544 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: and individuals who have committed murderous crimes within the last 545 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: one hundred years we're banned. And now the serious traders 546 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: started their own websites like super not in a u 547 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: g HT dot com, serial Killers Inc. Dot com. And 548 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: as we record this, several people, including the u S 549 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: Center John Cornyn, are fighting too obliterate this trade. There's 550 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: an advocate named Andy Can who is participating with the 551 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,080 Speaker 1: with legislators to try to bring this trade to a 552 00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: legal end. But while they're fighting it, it means that 553 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: it's still legal in most cases. I think it was 554 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: Can that kind of got eBay to pull the plug 555 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: on this stuff, or it was his a lot of 556 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: his activism. I think that UM made them, forced them 557 00:34:54,840 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: to make that change. And the first question, the first 558 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: question that we run into here is should it be illegal? 559 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: Should we stop people from doing this? And if so why? 560 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: We'll get to that right after a quick word from 561 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: our sponsor. Well, I think the obvious answer is yes, 562 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: it should be illegal. At least people think that yes, 563 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: it should be illegal. It feels in your gut, maybe 564 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: it does. It does feel wrong, and even the eBay 565 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: rules sort of point to this, because they they do 566 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: still allow the sale of artifacts I think that are 567 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: older than a certain um date. I'm not sure exactly 568 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: what that is, but something that would be much more 569 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: likely to be considered a historical artifact. Um, you know, 570 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: like fossils and things like that, right, Um, that is 571 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: legal to distribute on eBay, But this stuff is not. 572 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: And I think the real reason for that is that 573 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: the people affected by this stuff directly are still living. 574 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,720 Speaker 1: It is inherently in sense citive, and people are literally 575 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:08,359 Speaker 1: profiting off of the suffering and torture and ruination of 576 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: people's lives. Yeah, it does. However, I feel like it 577 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,879 Speaker 1: could be and probably is a free speech kind of 578 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: issue that you're dealing with here. That's one of the 579 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: arguments that the collectors and many many people in support 580 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,560 Speaker 1: of this trade, or at least maybe supports weird word 581 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: in opposition of banning it and inspanning it. Uh. They 582 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: say that if we refuse to provide incentives for criminals 583 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: to tell their stories, then accounts of some crimes may 584 00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: never be fully told. And some of those crimes, like 585 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: the JFK assassination was when they bring up maybe a 586 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 1: vital public interest. Personally, it's just one person's opinion. I 587 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: think that's a little bit disingenuous. Yeah, well, there's profit 588 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: to be made a lot of that. And then and 589 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: then to to the point to the art collector correspondence 590 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: that that we mentioned earlier, the trade becomes really murky 591 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: when we explore how these folks get their items direct contact, 592 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: writing to someone corrupt prison guard. Perhaps it does feel 593 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: like perhaps there could be a route somewhere in here. 594 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 1: And this is off book, but it feels like there 595 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: could be a route somewhere that's working with people who 596 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: hold evidence, so law enforcement that holds evidence and putting 597 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: it in a museum setting that is not for profit. 598 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: So it feels like there's somewhere route there if we 599 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: want to maintain it um just for historical record of 600 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: things not to do as a society. I could see that. Yeah, yeah, 601 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: and that that makes sense. I feel like that's the 602 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: approach that the museums we've visited have taken, or at 603 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: least I think they're too or like would would say 604 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: that that throughout their taking right. Yeah, But when it 605 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: comes to the idea of a killer directly profiting off this, 606 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: it isn't legal. The Son of Sam laws we've mentioned before, 607 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: named after Sam Berkowitz are still state by state. They 608 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: came They came into effect when rumors started spreading that 609 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: publishers and movie studios were offering sam Berkowitz hundreds of 610 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars for his story, for the rights to 611 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: the Son of Sam's story, And obviously you would want 612 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: to move to stop that. It's not making someone a 613 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: millionaire because they've committed murder. Doesn't seem like the way 614 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: a society is supposed to work. And the law was 615 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: invoked in New York eleven times between seventy seven and 616 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, and many of these laws currently have 617 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,480 Speaker 1: been repealed and replaced by other versions. However, right now 618 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,759 Speaker 1: some states still have no active Son of Sam legislation. 619 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: This means that in Louisiana, Massachusetts, Missouri, South Carolina, and 620 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: New Hampshire, it is still legal for anyone to go 621 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: to a prison and start some sort of financial relationship 622 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: or right to someone and say, hey, send me this, 623 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 1: I'll sell this letter, and then I'll put money in 624 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,359 Speaker 1: your your account, your commissary account, all right, well, you 625 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: messed up millionaires out there that are really into this stuff, 626 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 1: head on over to one of those states and go 627 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: for it. Get get this, you guys. There's a there's 628 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: a really crazy article on Vice about this very topic 629 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,439 Speaker 1: that starts off with this the description of a group 630 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: of three people gathered at an auction house UM in 631 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,439 Speaker 1: Illinois called the James Quick Auctioneers. They're gathered around two 632 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: dozen paintings that they are burning, setting on fire. And 633 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 1: these paintings were the work of UM convicted and executed 634 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: murderer John Wayne Gacey, who killed about two dozen children 635 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,920 Speaker 1: boys during his career as a serial killer. UM, and 636 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 1: before he died, his lawyers actually put forty of his 637 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: paintings up for auction and sale at this auctioneer's house. 638 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 1: So this was kind of like early early on in 639 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: this debate. And uh, it turned out that people were interested, 640 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: people were ready to drop, you know, tens of thousands 641 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: of dollars to buy this stuff up, and UM, the 642 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 1: people that did buy them up decided they were going 643 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: to burn them right there on the premises, UM, so 644 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: that the families of Gaycey's victims could have some kind 645 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: of closure there Yeah, what do you think about that? 646 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: I remember hearing a little bit about this, but I 647 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,840 Speaker 1: hadn't looked into it too deeply. What what do you 648 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 1: think about that? Is that the right move he actually allowed? 649 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: It was this um Joe Roth and Wall Noble, who 650 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 1: were local businessmen. Um, they invited the families of the 651 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: victims to come and actually throw the paintings into the 652 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: fire themselves. I think that's pretty admirable. Yeah, it's admirable. 653 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: If it does seem like a waste of money, not 654 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: a waste of money, it's doing something admirable. It's just 655 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,439 Speaker 1: it's crazy that you'd have to spend that much money 656 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: to get ahold of it just to burn it, that's true. 657 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: And then they're there in lies that kind of conundrum 658 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,279 Speaker 1: here because obviously, you know they did have to pay 659 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:36,320 Speaker 1: a fifteen large to get all this stuff. True, and 660 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: where does it go? I I'm not sure what the 661 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 1: details are. They're dust in the wind, my friend. Well, 662 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: I don't know though. I mean, if if it was 663 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: done through Gaycy's lawyers, right does it been does the 664 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: money legally have to benefit a charity? Right? Does it 665 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,279 Speaker 1: have to go to a fund for the survivors? Or 666 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: the relatives of the victims. Hopefully it seems that right 667 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: now that stuff is functioning on a case by case basis, 668 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: because again there's no are explicit federal law for this. 669 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: There have been people who have been banned from visiting prisons. 670 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: We found in our research there's a murder bilia trader 671 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 1: named g William Harder who was banned from visiting any 672 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: Texas prisons after Texas adopted a son of Sam law 673 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: and it was revealed he had been paying murderers directly 674 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: for their belongings. So the stuff they don't want you 675 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: to know in this case, often it's going to be 676 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: where the money is going and how they are obtaining 677 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: these items. You know, this is um, this is pretty 678 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, this is pretty filthy stuff. Setically, it's 679 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 1: a terrible round about avenue to get rich for somebody 680 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: who is insane willing to do these things. But then 681 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: also some people might be saying it's not about the money, 682 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,560 Speaker 1: right They may be saying, we want to keep this 683 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: in the public eye. Or I just have a personal 684 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 1: fascination because maybe I felt maybe I lived, says someone 685 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: in the California area. When this one serial killer is operative, 686 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: and this is an important time in my life. I 687 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: get that part of it. What what I'm saying is 688 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: a a roundabout way to get rich for the killer 689 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: the thing where someone to go like if you're super 690 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 1: poor and you go to jail, but you can sell 691 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: all the stuff you murdered all these people with. But 692 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,399 Speaker 1: the Son of Sam. Laws like that, you said, they're 693 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: different in different states, but is it generally kind of 694 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 1: the law of the land, Like, yeah, it's generally. The 695 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 1: only state that has never had any law like that 696 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: is New Hampshire and the ones that the other ones 697 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,399 Speaker 1: on that list, they had one and then it got 698 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: struck down, but there supposedly working on a new one. 699 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: So that's the safeguard. I mean, like you know, in theory, 700 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: unless you launder it and figure out some roundabout way 701 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 1: of getting paid, you can't really a state can't really 702 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: benefit from this. And I think the big part of 703 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: the reason for this law was so that people couldn't 704 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,800 Speaker 1: sell the rights to their story to like movies. And 705 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: you think you mentioned that at the top of the show. Um, 706 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: but people find other ways of getting this stuff, don't they. 707 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: Because the if it's coming directly from incarcerated criminals, and 708 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: they're making this work, they want to find a way 709 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: for it to benefit them while they're alive. Even if 710 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: they can't make money directly, people find other ways of 711 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,880 Speaker 1: helping them out in order to get this murder bilia, right, 712 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: like payment in kind. Let me bring you some stuff, right, 713 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 1: It's like what you were talking about with people actually 714 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 1: being banned from going into prisons, because this is you know, 715 00:44:44,560 --> 00:44:47,399 Speaker 1: it's a sketchy territory, right, Yeah, it is, But there 716 00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: are still legitimate reasons that someone would conduct some of 717 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,360 Speaker 1: this stuff. Like the Vice article that that you've mentioned 718 00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: has a story about a East Coast academic I believe 719 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,280 Speaker 1: who's conducting research on school shooters and he buys almost 720 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: every school shooter letter that's available because it's part of 721 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,760 Speaker 1: his research. So that's one argument. But still it feels 722 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: like those moments of understandable rational action for this are 723 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: few and far between. I'm not gonna say, I'm not 724 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: gonna say impossible, few and far between. And right now, 725 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: even though it's it's sort of a hidden industry, right now, 726 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,880 Speaker 1: you can go, should you so choose, to these websites 727 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: and you can find you can find all sorts of 728 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,879 Speaker 1: stuff on offer, be aware that some of it could 729 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: quite possibly be fraudulent. You can't speak to it, and 730 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:47,960 Speaker 1: then you have to ask yourself, is it worse if 731 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:50,439 Speaker 1: it's fraudulent, or it's worse Is it worse if it's real? 732 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: So the harder. The guy we have mentioned who got 733 00:45:55,520 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: banned um he noted that he has a minimum of 734 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: a thousand active users on his website. There are probably 735 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people who just read about this, you know, 736 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: or vicariously experienced it. I will say, I don't know 737 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: what you guys think, but I will say, after researching 738 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,359 Speaker 1: this episode, I've come to the conclusion that I'm not 739 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: getting I'm not getting you guys anything like this for 740 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,399 Speaker 1: for your birthdays. Yeah, I'm good, Thank you, I really 741 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,840 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thanks for thinking about us, and likewise, not 742 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: to be too much of a diva, but please just 743 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: no sericular stuff for me either. A right, And here's 744 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: the thing, no matter what kind of laws get past, 745 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,879 Speaker 1: this is gonna this trade is going to continue. Yeah, 746 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 1: black markets, gray markets. I think there are ways around it, 747 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 1: and it will continue to happen, and it's it's impossible 748 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: to stamp it out because the only way you can 749 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,200 Speaker 1: stamp this stuff out. The most effective way to do 750 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: it would be denying incarcerated prisoners any and all access 751 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: of any sort to the outside world. But even then, 752 00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: you've got sisters, brothers, fathers, other members of families of 753 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,319 Speaker 1: killers who may need money, who are free. I see 754 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: what you're saying. You know, I don't know. Then what 755 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: would you do? You would have to entirely violate human rights? 756 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: What here's a question, Um, what about folks that let's 757 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,760 Speaker 1: say I wanted to design a line of serial killer 758 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,800 Speaker 1: themed trading cards or a line of really high detailed 759 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: serial killer themed action figures. Who do I have to 760 00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: pay for the right to do that? Do I have 761 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: to pay anyone? Am I allowed to do that? If? 762 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,120 Speaker 1: If I'm making it and paying for myself and selling 763 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:44,560 Speaker 1: it direct, how does that work? Yeah? Who owns the 764 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: i P of serial killers? That's the thing, because it 765 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,279 Speaker 1: is public domain? I mean, the stuff was reported in 766 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,279 Speaker 1: the public and obviously the killers themselves can't benefit from 767 00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: the i P of their image. They are public figures. 768 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,200 Speaker 1: I think you know, oddly, Duff the action figure every 769 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,440 Speaker 1: thing might might be an easier route because of the 770 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,839 Speaker 1: trading cards, depending on the image you use. I might 771 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,400 Speaker 1: have to pay somebody on that, unless unless it's a 772 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:10,800 Speaker 1: mug shot ors. That's right, that's right. But I'm actually 773 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,479 Speaker 1: I looked this up just now. Just look up serial 774 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,680 Speaker 1: killer action figures. There are a ton of them out there, 775 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: bobble heads, action figures, um plush dolls. There's a Jeffrey Dahmer. 776 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,640 Speaker 1: It's called the Peekaboo Jeffrey Dahmer sleigh set, and it 777 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: is Jeffrey Dahmer in his prison reds. You know, the 778 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: full body suit with the ankle, you know, cuffs and 779 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: everything on, and it comes with a little bucket of 780 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: like it's meant to be acid, I guess because he 781 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 1: would dissolve bodies and acid. God. Yeah, it's it's pretty 782 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:45,920 Speaker 1: pretty hideous and tasteless. But is it is it? Is 783 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,680 Speaker 1: it legal? You know? I mean I think it is 784 00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,000 Speaker 1: probably is technically, And there are some people who go 785 00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,800 Speaker 1: further and say is it art? Which is an argument 786 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,560 Speaker 1: maybe for another day, But yeah, you're absolutely right, it is. 787 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:01,560 Speaker 1: It is legal. People are doing it. You don't have 788 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: to pay for the rights to a real person. You 789 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,000 Speaker 1: would have to go through a bunch of licensing stuff 790 00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,800 Speaker 1: to make. It's actually more difficult to make an action 791 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: figure of say Mike Myers or Jason Vorhees than it 792 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,400 Speaker 1: is for Jeffrey Dahmer or something much because the licensed 793 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,239 Speaker 1: holders of those properties have like people they pay to 794 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: look around online constantly for people doing like derivative kind 795 00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,640 Speaker 1: of like. There's a lot of fan communities that make 796 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 1: t shirts and prints based on popular products, and they 797 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,040 Speaker 1: can very easily get shut down if they're you know, 798 00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,479 Speaker 1: making money off of it. But a lot of times 799 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,920 Speaker 1: the studios and stuff will let that stuff ride. But not, No, 800 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: it's not the case. I don't think with that's a 801 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: real kick in the pants, you know, because these are 802 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: horrible people and they get action figures. There are any 803 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 1: action figures of us. We can change that. You know. 804 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,760 Speaker 1: There's a place of the de Cab Mall here in Atlanta, 805 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: the North to Cab Mall where you can get a 806 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,520 Speaker 1: three D photograph taking of VI, you and your family 807 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,280 Speaker 1: and they will print it into an action figure set 808 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,839 Speaker 1: of you and your of your family. Did you do 809 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,320 Speaker 1: it now? I haven't done it yet, but I'm I'm interested. 810 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:09,920 Speaker 1: We've got to do We should do it for the 811 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 1: for the team. We should do it? We should. Uh, 812 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,680 Speaker 1: let's see Paul, would you be interested in that? Yeah, oh, 813 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,960 Speaker 1: we got a pretty enthusiastic nod from Paul. Mission controled decade. 814 00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: So send us some links and and let us know 815 00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:27,799 Speaker 1: as well. What what do you think? Where do you 816 00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 1: fall in this debate? Do you believe that it is 817 00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: unethical and we should do anything possible as a society 818 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:41,800 Speaker 1: to prevent this trade. Do you believe that the past 819 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: is the past and that these things should be allowed 820 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 1: to freely float through the world as they will. Should 821 00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: they only be in museum's? Should they be destroyed entirely? 822 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: Should we obliterate the traces of these people, you know, 823 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,880 Speaker 1: like the way the Chinese government obliterated traces of people 824 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 1: in Tianamen Square right, or the way Stalin erased people 825 00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,000 Speaker 1: from photographs. Wow, when you think about it that way, 826 00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,440 Speaker 1: it seems like maybe we shouldn't. But anyway, what can 827 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,719 Speaker 1: you think? What do you think? As always, thank you 828 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,759 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. You can let us know 829 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,960 Speaker 1: on Instagram where we are conspiracy stuff show, or Twitter 830 00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:28,520 Speaker 1: or Facebook where we are conspiracy stuff. Definitely put all 831 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,279 Speaker 1: of your information into Facebook and talk to us there 832 00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: because your data is completely safe, but it is a 833 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:37,399 Speaker 1: great way to talk to us, especially especially on our 834 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,399 Speaker 1: here's where it gets crazy. Uh what do we call 835 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,439 Speaker 1: that our page where we can all hang out. We've 836 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: been doing all kinds of stuff on there lately. Um, 837 00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,560 Speaker 1: and just remember, if you are going to go there, um, 838 00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:51,680 Speaker 1: be inquisitive, be you can be intense, don't you Just yeah, 839 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:56,600 Speaker 1: that's it, okay, because we will destroy you. We will 840 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,920 Speaker 1: wipe all traces of you from the group. Oh gosh, okay. 841 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: So we're not about just putting this out there. We 842 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: are not about censorship. But there's just there's some things 843 00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: that you just don't want to say. If you do 844 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,480 Speaker 1: want to say things that maybe you are are worried 845 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: about putting on a message board, you can say them 846 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:17,359 Speaker 1: into a microphone attached to a phone by calling us. 847 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,600 Speaker 1: We are one eight three three st d w y 848 00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:24,239 Speaker 1: t K. We will get your message and perhaps it 849 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,440 Speaker 1: will make its way onto the show at some point. 850 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:28,320 Speaker 1: So give us a call, like, do it, do it 851 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,960 Speaker 1: right now? Pull over though, pull over first if you're 852 00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: listening us in the car, please, okay, And if you 853 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,080 Speaker 1: don't want to do any of that stuff, you just 854 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 1: want to send us a message. You can do it anonymously. 855 00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: They have those things. Send us an email. We are 856 00:52:42,440 --> 00:53:04,040 Speaker 1: conspiracy at how stuff works dot com.