Speaker 1: Native Lampard is a production of Our Heart Radio in
Speaker 1: partnership with Reason Choice Media.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Welcome home, everybody.
Speaker 3: This is Andrew Gillum and I am here with our
Speaker 3: special co hosts for the week, the m v P
Speaker 3: the man who still can't tell you whether or not
Speaker 3: he is in a relationship that is non celestial. Uh.
Speaker 3: If it ain't Jesus based, I don't know what it is, uh, y'all.
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Speaker 4: We we know your founder yep, Terrence.
Speaker 5: Woodberry is founding partner NNGATI. We live at the intersection
Speaker 5: of the people re research.
Speaker 3: So, y'all, that's Joshua does, giving you the background on
Speaker 3: his strategies if you ever need them, shout them out.
Speaker 3: And of course car sellers and Angela Ray whenever she
Speaker 3: shooges the pop in. We wanted to pick up on
Speaker 3: this theme of We talked a little bit about some
Speaker 3: of the scandals that are engulfing Washington, d C. But
Speaker 3: you know, it doesn't take a scandal breaking in DC
Speaker 3: for us to know that. You know, in society we
Speaker 3: make mistakes, especially when you're in public life, Lots of
Speaker 3: mistakes can be made, and we pose the question to
Speaker 3: ourselves to ask and to answer. But we want to
Speaker 3: do the same and invite you into the conversation of
Speaker 3: one once you've made a very public mistake, and I
Speaker 3: guess it sort of depends on the nature of the mistake.
Speaker 4: Possibly, but once you've.
Speaker 3: Done that and you've had your time of possible contrition, apology, accountability,
Speaker 3: Does every mistake, once given grace, create the opportunity for
Speaker 3: being welcome back into society? Can you find uplift advancement?
Speaker 3: Is there is there is there a phoenix from the ashes?
Speaker 3: I wanted to put that to today's hosts whether or
Speaker 3: not there is an opportunity for redemption and if so,
Speaker 3: are there red lines that we a society just can't
Speaker 3: get cross and therefore there's no redemption? What do you
Speaker 3: stay with?
Speaker 4: Gary?
Speaker 1: Can I ask real quick tip for a friendly amendment?
Speaker 1: Is there a way that we can buy for Kate
Speaker 1: bringing somebody back into society? Versus bringing back into public office.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I do think the topic does we can
Speaker 3: buy for Kate that for sure, because I do think
Speaker 3: they're different certainly. Yeah, so we Yeah, you can answer
Speaker 3: it either which way or maybe both ways, depending on
Speaker 3: high structure.
Speaker 6: I mean, for me, I think that you know, my
Speaker 6: legal brain, as I talked about Swall Whorler earlier, how
Speaker 6: there are different buckets, like you know, being a whole,
Speaker 6: you know, sleeping with your staff and then committing a
Speaker 6: sexual assault. I find sexual assault in domestic violence to
Speaker 6: be irredeemable period. That's you know, I don't even find
Speaker 6: that to be like a really weird red line to draw.
Speaker 6: But personally I don't. I tell people like, I'm probably
Speaker 6: the least judgmental person you know, Like I don't really
Speaker 6: care what you do, how you do it, when you
Speaker 6: do it, or who you do it with. I don't
Speaker 6: care about none of that. The only thing that I
Speaker 6: don't really tolerate is putting hands on women. And like
Speaker 6: my entire friend group knows that, and that's not like
Speaker 6: a really weird red line. I don't think that's not anything.
Speaker 6: I'm not looking for pats on the back. That's not
Speaker 6: something courageous. That's just me personally where I am. I
Speaker 6: think when you have moral failures or ethical collapses, I
Speaker 6: think that usually with time, you can spend time with
Speaker 6: yourself and you can be quote unquote redeemed, if that's
Speaker 6: what we're saying. And I think we should give people
Speaker 6: the grace to grow. I think who you were in
Speaker 6: college is not necessarily who you are today. I think
Speaker 6: that we've all grown from our days at Morehouse or Washington,
Speaker 6: or South Dakota or or fam you. I mean, well,
Speaker 6: we've all grown from those days. And I just you know,
Speaker 6: I am somebody who's extremely cautious about passing judgment because
Speaker 6: I'm still trying to give myself grace and give other
Speaker 6: people the benefit of that grace. And so I think
Speaker 6: that on one side. On that side, yeah, I mean,
Speaker 6: if if you're honest with folk about your past transgressions
Speaker 6: and they're able to see your growth, putting yourself on
Speaker 6: the ballot is fine and letting them adjudicate whether or
Speaker 6: not your growth actually matches, uh, you know, your verbiage.
Speaker 6: If you've committed an act of sex assault, I think
Speaker 6: that you need to spend the rest of your life
Speaker 6: dedicated to right that wrong, and the same thing with
Speaker 6: domestic violence.
Speaker 4: That's just my personal think.
Speaker 3: So there's grace, there is a red line, and in
Speaker 3: Bookar's case, is sexual violence and laying hands on me.
Speaker 4: Man, Yeah, what.
Speaker 3: Do you got, Josh?
Speaker 5: I feel like there's no world where I could sit
Speaker 5: up here as a per person who has dedicated large
Speaker 5: parts of like my political career to rehabilitation and reintegration
Speaker 5: into society and then fixing the criminal justice system and
Speaker 5: you know, pushing legislation that allows us to see people
Speaker 5: who have have committed crimes to be to live gainful
Speaker 5: lives after they have been fully rehabilitated and have righted
Speaker 5: their wrongs. I mean, we talked earlier about the criminal
Speaker 5: or community violence interventure programs.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: I filmed the documentary this summer with a community Values
Speaker 5: to dificial program here in Chicago and set the seven
Speaker 5: people on the front lines pushing that program out in
Speaker 5: the neighborhoods stopping violence being violence interrupters were all people
Speaker 5: who had been convicted of pretty heinous crimes themselves at
Speaker 5: some point, right, And I was very happy to see
Speaker 5: that not only was this program interrupting those crime but
Speaker 5: it was taking people who had like crossed that line
Speaker 5: and putting their you know them into use in their
Speaker 5: own communities. So you know, I struggle with this because
Speaker 5: I think about how our communities could benefit from strong
Speaker 5: rehabilitative systems. I do think, like I share what Bakari
Speaker 5: is saying, like there is a particular version that you
Speaker 5: want to have around anybody who has put their hands
Speaker 5: on a woman and all and the like. But I
Speaker 5: think we should always have grace to see how we
Speaker 5: can rehabilitate somebody into society after we have helped them
Speaker 5: right the wrongs.
Speaker 4: I think people can rehabilitate.
Speaker 7: I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't mind them like.
Speaker 6: I know, but I just wanted to because he said,
Speaker 6: I just I think that you can go on the
Speaker 6: path or rehabilitation.
Speaker 4: I just think being.
Speaker 6: Re ingratiated, if that's a word, into the public eye,
Speaker 6: the public space, where there's a great responsibility, I think
Speaker 6: you forfeited that.
Speaker 4: But I don't.
Speaker 6: I'm not trying to a stew you from a path
Speaker 6: in our communities to do good work, because I do
Speaker 6: think that you have to spend the rest of your
Speaker 6: life doing that work.
Speaker 4: To kind of write that wrong.
Speaker 6: I'm just saying that having a place of some platform
Speaker 6: that is just difficult because it comes with as Andrew
Speaker 6: said in the Longer Show a couple of days ago,
Speaker 6: it comes with such great responsibility, but.
Speaker 7: That you know, no, you're fine.
Speaker 1: I've been really wrestling with this. I've been trying to
Speaker 1: write my little notes to figure out what's what. So
Speaker 1: I don't even want to address the reintegration into society
Speaker 1: because I think everybody should be given that opportunity, especially
Speaker 1: if they can atone for what they've done between them
Speaker 1: and their maker, through therapy, whatever. I think that there
Speaker 1: should be a pathway and on ren for people to
Speaker 1: come back into society, especially when they make mistakes. I
Speaker 1: also done a lot of work in the justice reform space,
Speaker 1: and I think that that is imperative because there's so
Speaker 1: many times there's a minor mistake somebody makes, or they
Speaker 1: were right wrong place, wrong time, or woman was in
Speaker 1: love with a man it was a drug mule. Like,
Speaker 1: there's so many reasons and things that can happen. I
Speaker 1: was wrestling with what is a limit for me with
Speaker 1: political office. I agree with Bakari that sexual assault that
Speaker 1: is proven is a non starter, Domestic violence that is
Speaker 1: proven especially habitual, because I think there are some circumstances
Speaker 1: of domestic violence where somebody was defending themselves and they
Speaker 1: were the ones that ended up getting arrested. In all that,
Speaker 1: I think it's on a case by case basis, not
Speaker 1: domestic violence and of itself, but what they say domestic
Speaker 1: violence was.
Speaker 7: To be clear the hoeing.
Speaker 1: There are hoes everywhere in every industry and especially in politics.
Speaker 1: So I agree that that's you know, you should work
Speaker 1: on your moral compass and your integrity, But I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a disqualifying offense. I think sleeping with staff
Speaker 1: is a little more tricky, and I think that there
Speaker 1: should be a real acknowledgment of the power dynamic that
Speaker 1: does exist there. And I think interns are different from
Speaker 1: senior level staffers. And whether or not you know the
Speaker 1: staff was on a member's staff or whatever, or former
Speaker 1: staff or all. I think all of that matters also
Speaker 1: case by case. The thing that I have less grace
Speaker 1: for are like financial crimes that are proven. So you
Speaker 1: embezzled money, you redirected, you know, federal resources somewhere, you
Speaker 1: stole campaign funds for something that you know is ridiculous,
Speaker 1: versus you committed some type of financial crime before you
Speaker 1: got elected. Let's say you were poor and you stole
Speaker 1: money so that you could feed your family. I can
Speaker 1: understand that. Differently, I think that we should not just
Speaker 1: have these broad sweeping like Barron Donalds.
Speaker 7: What did he do?
Speaker 3: Uh bezel mad impersonation of.
Speaker 4: Theft?
Speaker 3: No? No, no, this was just major financial crimes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it was just it was before he was
Speaker 4: making ends meet. I mean with the I am.
Speaker 3: In Florida state also ends that wasn't to make an
Speaker 3: end meet.
Speaker 2: And unless we were in the luxurious category, all.
Speaker 7: Of that matters.
Speaker 1: And even when you think about like I grew up
Speaker 1: on so for Real and Candy Rain, all of them
Speaker 1: got in trouble for check writing fraud.
Speaker 7: I want to know the reason for that.
Speaker 1: I don't want to just say because it was check
Speaker 1: writing fraud, I'm automatically throwing them out.
Speaker 7: It was a bunch of dudes I went to high
Speaker 7: school with.
Speaker 1: I went to all girls school, but in the same time,
Speaker 1: in the same era, same zip code that went to
Speaker 1: they got in trouble with the law for like this
Speaker 1: check writing fraud thing when we were in high school.
Speaker 1: I think that that should be forgiven they were young
Speaker 1: and dumb, you know actually that I think they were
Speaker 1: in college by that time.
Speaker 7: But what did come to mind? And he's not in public.
Speaker 1: Office, but I think it's very interesting that his on
Speaker 1: ramp back into commentary was whereas Andrews still not a
Speaker 1: paid commentator and he actually didn't commit a crime and
Speaker 1: was actually acquitted. But I was thinking about Jeffrey Tuban,
Speaker 1: who was jacking off on a like company.
Speaker 7: Zoom, so like should you should your One's.
Speaker 4: Not what I was expecting. I wasn't expecting that, Sorry, Jeffrey.
Speaker 1: Think, for example, I think what I'm I think what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is we have these like favorites that we play,
Speaker 1: and these blind spots that we hold, and these hypocrisies
Speaker 1: that we keep, and I think that we should just
Speaker 1: really wrestle with them and talk about why.
Speaker 6: Because with great talent comes great runway. Jeffrey Tuban was
Speaker 6: perceived to be an extremely extremely gifted legal legal comment.
Speaker 3: Throwaway with no substance and ability to contribute to the conversation.
Speaker 3: I don't think you see.
Speaker 4: What I'm saying.
Speaker 1: That if Andrew I think, I'm sorry, like and I'm
Speaker 1: going to actually disagree with and for Andrew in this moment.
Speaker 1: I think if the right opportunity came and it was
Speaker 1: not going to be Andrew versus Maga, and it's an
Speaker 1: opportunity to inform, just like we do on this podcast,
Speaker 1: that Andrew absolutely would create space to do that. He
Speaker 1: can't help himself. That's how we had a ninety minute
Speaker 1: podcast this week. He's going to inform people. He's going
Speaker 1: to he's going to share facts, he's going to give perspective.
Speaker 1: He absolutely would do it. But my point is that Jeffrey,
Speaker 1: I mean to throw you. I mean, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: apologize for throwing under the bus, but I guess what
Speaker 1: I'm saying is like, there are people in Congress who
Speaker 1: are given that same opportunity, in that same grace that
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Tuben was, There are people sitting in elected office
Speaker 1: right now who are giving that grace.
Speaker 7: What's the one guy's name, y'all?
Speaker 1: The he passed away now, but he was in Tennessee
Speaker 1: the I think it was a city councilman. He used
Speaker 1: to talk big ish in all the city council meetings.
Speaker 7: He would be mockted uncle, oh yeah, Kevin.
Speaker 1: Somebody. What's the name y'all know what I'm talking about, Yes,
Speaker 1: but like he would get passes for doing nonsensical things
Speaker 1: because it was funny, you know, or because he just
Speaker 1: didn't care. And all I'm saying is, I want us
Speaker 1: to be equitable in how we distribute justice. I want
Speaker 1: us to be equitable and how we share grace. I
Speaker 1: want us to be equitable in how we adjudge this
Speaker 1: spectrum of things. And I think that sometimes we're not,
Speaker 1: you know, especially in this in this country. It's the
Speaker 1: two undred and fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Independence
Speaker 1: this year, and I think that they're so much further
Speaker 1: we have to go and even analyzing like how that
Speaker 1: justice is shared given to us, that independence, that freedom
Speaker 1: and liberation is given us. And I think sometimes we're
Speaker 1: the worst arbiters of that black folks I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: And sometimes they are. Sometimes we are also the best
Speaker 3: pathway of redemption in the black community, you know, as well.
Speaker 3: I think I think we should none of us be
Speaker 3: illusory about the fact that this country has never been
Speaker 3: generally graceful for black men, black women either, but black
Speaker 3: but black men speaking very specifically, are discardible. It can
Speaker 3: be thrown away and not another thought paid to what
Speaker 3: happens to them. You know what happens to them afterwards.
Speaker 3: So I'm certainly not illusory about it, and I think
Speaker 3: we do want to be in that arc a little
Speaker 3: bit more. And I was thinking about whether or not
Speaker 3: there are lines that are not crossable. Pedophilia is a
Speaker 3: hard thing for me, and I don't understand the brain
Speaker 3: science around it, which is probably what makes it doubly
Speaker 3: hard because I think I don't know how you disconnect
Speaker 3: from the habit and what the I don't know the chemistry.
Speaker 3: I don't know the brain chemistry, and I think it
Speaker 3: I think that is what makes it a hard line
Speaker 3: for me. Sexual abuse pieces also make it really really challenging.
Speaker 3: I don't even know how a person can take their
Speaker 3: body respond to a forced environment like that. I just
Speaker 3: don't know how the body responds to that. I'd be
Speaker 3: in trauma.
Speaker 1: Andrew, can I give you an example here? This I
Speaker 1: nobakari has to go. But I just want to say
Speaker 1: this really quick. I have someone who, let me be careful,
Speaker 1: I said, I know someone who is actually caught up
Speaker 1: in a legal issue right now behind child sex abuse.
Speaker 1: The person that I know claims that there was a
Speaker 1: young man who was pretty much abandoned by his parents,
Speaker 1: and she was starting to take care of him even
Speaker 1: with her family. All of this gave the child an
Speaker 1: iPad to use. It's her iPad. But on the iPad
Speaker 1: there were naked images of her that she does not remember,
Speaker 1: like she didn't remember they were on there. But because
Speaker 1: they were on the iPad, is now caught up in
Speaker 1: a whole child sex scandal situation. And it's not the
Speaker 1: same thing as pedophilia, obviously. I've taken her word for
Speaker 1: it that it was, you know, there was no because
Speaker 1: a teacher and it was I mean, like all of
Speaker 1: these things. And so again I feel like there still
Speaker 1: has to be spectrum in the broad categories because people
Speaker 1: make innocent mistakes. But now she's been arrested three times
Speaker 1: about this, you know, I.
Speaker 4: Get I get it.
Speaker 3: I think my issue isn't too the exception. It really
Speaker 3: is to rule demonstrated. But let me ask you about
Speaker 3: that rule, Andrew.
Speaker 6: We all grew up, we all grew up where the
Speaker 6: fine girl in high school dated somebody that was twenty
Speaker 6: eight too damn old, driving driving the Lexus, you know,
Speaker 6: with the twills in the back.
Speaker 3: Yes, and so there are the instances of the dating
Speaker 3: and consensual, and some would argued consent of a certain
Speaker 3: age is not consent at all, that parents must consent,
Speaker 3: so on and so forth. So I get that I'm
Speaker 3: really mostly dealing in this category, for instance, the Jeffrey
Speaker 3: Epstein world where people could could be complicit it and
Speaker 3: more than that, inviting of the idea of of of
Speaker 3: taking advantage of children for their own sexual pleasure. And
Speaker 3: there is a whole That's why I said, I don't
Speaker 3: get the brain science. I'm not talking about these accidental whatever. R.
Speaker 3: Kelly is probably somebody I would put in the category
Speaker 3: of of the Epstein you know type where you your
Speaker 3: typeograph is I want a child, I want a person
Speaker 3: with a child like body.
Speaker 4: I want you know.
Speaker 3: So like, I don't get it. It's not a thing.
Speaker 3: So that is what it is. But quite frankly, I
Speaker 3: don't have for the most part, those hard, hard black
Speaker 3: and white lines as much as I have. If you
Speaker 3: want to enter public office, just know that it is
Speaker 3: the It is a contact sport and if you put
Speaker 3: yourself out there, you make yourself open to whatever comes
Speaker 3: in the arena of politics. As a contact sport, and
Speaker 3: if you survive that and people say I want to
Speaker 3: elevate you to this position. Elective office is not a
Speaker 3: right for anybody. It is a privilege, and it is
Speaker 3: a place of responsibility, of elevated status. The thing is
Speaker 3: that you don't have to be a perfect person to
Speaker 3: be an elevated status. In fact, some of the most
Speaker 3: successful public servants I have ever encountered have had They
Speaker 3: are people who have risen from the phoenix, and what
Speaker 3: the voter knows about them is that they have leveled
Speaker 3: with some kind of life that they have had to tussle,
Speaker 3: and they have had to grime, and they have had
Speaker 3: you know, they've had to pull themselves up out of
Speaker 3: some situation, which then communicates to the voter that maybe
Speaker 3: you might know a little bit about what I experience
Speaker 3: in my life from day to day, and maybe that
Speaker 3: makes you a better policy maker because you now have
Speaker 3: an inlet and to what is really like out here.
Speaker 3: One of my biggest issues with Swalwel this weekend, and
Speaker 3: I'll stop here, was that I felt like, and maybe
Speaker 3: he's not there in a position to have done this yet,
Speaker 3: but I felt like, if you were going to make
Speaker 3: a statement the general I have made mistakes does not
Speaker 3: go far enough because you're not in everyday average Joe,
Speaker 3: and it wouldn't work for everyday average Joe that I
Speaker 3: make mistakes. That's not why you're on the headlines right now.
Speaker 3: Your mistakes that you happen to make are not why
Speaker 3: you're here. There are some bad decisions that have been
Speaker 3: made here that have put you and your family in
Speaker 3: a predicament. And you know what, it is not fair
Speaker 3: for the voters to have to ride that way with
Speaker 3: me while I am riding, And once this is over,
Speaker 3: I look forward to being able to reintroduce myself as
Speaker 3: someone who is just a man who makes mistakes, but
Speaker 3: also can atone for those mistakes and reintroduce themselves into
Speaker 3: society and do good work. I'm not disposable, but then
Speaker 3: that requires a level of honesty with yourself and a
Speaker 3: belief that you owe it to the people to level
Speaker 3: with them. And then they make the decision as to
Speaker 3: whether they'll trust you again for the office, and I
Speaker 3: think leave it to them and they'll decide the right way.
Speaker 3: And if they don't choose you, then that might be
Speaker 3: an invitation for you to spend more work with yourself
Speaker 3: that's it. So I think y'all, the listeners, we are
Speaker 3: of multiple minds here, but I think where there is
Speaker 3: some unanimity is that there's a general belief that people
Speaker 3: aren't disposable, and that folks have things to offer and
Speaker 3: to give, and that to the extent possible, we ought
Speaker 3: to make away in a window, in an opening form
Speaker 3: to do just that. Again, we thank you for your time.
Speaker 3: I hope, I hope you keep you too long, not
Speaker 3: like the show I hosted this week with a long time.
Speaker 3: We want to wish you all well. We want to
Speaker 3: welcome you home, of course, and if it's not Tuesday
Speaker 3: and we ain't in Atlanta today, make sure that if
Speaker 3: you're in advance of Tuesday and we're not in Atlanta,
Speaker 3: that you be in the place Atlanta. Check the show
Speaker 3: notes for what I'm talking about. It's a secret invite
Speaker 3: be there. Welcome Home.
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