WEBVTT - Sleep and Creativity 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:01.599 Hey, Katie, do you think I'm creative? 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:02.400 Oh? 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:04.200 Of course you are. 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:06.760 I don't see too many other people coming up with 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.639 everything flavored pretzels, do you. 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:10.280 No, I don't. 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.440 I'm curious, though, Adam, have you ever thought about how 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.680 a good night's sleep impacts your creative choices as an 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.520 actor and a pretzel maker? 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.400 Well, ever since I became an actor and a pretzel maker, 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.040 I haven't really gotten that much sleep. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:28.480 But I should check that out. Yes, I'm Adam Shapiro. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:29.400 And I'm Katie Lowe's. 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.080 This is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:37.879 iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. In this episode, we 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:43.200 explore the relationship between sleep and creativity. I always think 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.479 that creativity is so linked with sleep for me, Like, 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.760 at night, I'll read my lines for the next day 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:51.599 and think a lot about the character and where they 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.320 come from and what their parents were like and things 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.360 like that, and I'll go to sleep, and really I 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.560 feel like it's just sort of subconscious being digested in 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.040 process somewhere in my dreams, and when I wake up, 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:07.000 not only are my lines better put in my head 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:08.360 for memorization. 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:10.520 But I feel like my creativity has been sparked. Do 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:11.120 you ever have that? 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:11.600 Oh? 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:12.680 Yeah, I mean absolutely. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.680 If I get a good night's sleep before I show 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.200 up on set, I'm a monster. And then also the 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.840 other thing is like, you know, when I know that 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.920 I'm improving a lot, if it's a comedy or I'm 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:26.200 playing a character and a drama, that's got to improvise 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.920 a lot, I have to be sharp exactly. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.560 Our guests are both creative people too. Doctor Sarah C. 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:37.320 Mednick is the author of the Power of the Downstate. 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.919 She's done extensive research on the link between quality sleep 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:42.560 and our ability to be creative. 0:01:42.680 --> 0:01:46.000 Welcome Sarah, thanks for having us. We also have respective 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:49.280 composer Andrew M. Edwards joining us. You may not know 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.400 him by name, but you've probably heard his musical scores 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:55.880 in films and TV. He often gets the call when 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.600 a show needs creative music that helps build. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:01.040 Some mystery and suspense. True. 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:02.120 Welcome, Thank you. 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:04.680 This is so exciting. 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.799 I mean, as two creatives as Adam and I are, 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.480 that we are actors, and I guess what you would 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:13.200 call creative people. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.440 Although everyone's a creative person, right. 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.640 I like to think so, yeah, I think that it 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.840 doesn't even matter what line of work you happen to 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.800 be in or what your day to day is. I 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:28.560 feel like giving your brain creative space to exist in 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:30.079 is helpful for. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:31.640 Everyone in any way. 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.960 Sarah, this seems like a silly question, but we got 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.720 to start with the basics. Okay, So when you research 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.720 the relationship between sleep and creativity, like, what are we 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.639 talking about? How do you even define and measure creativity? 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.040 I mean, creativity can be actually defined in so many 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:55.160 different ways, and so I've chosen a definition that actually 0:02:55.680 --> 0:03:00.359 my father worked on years ago in the sixties. It's 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:03.160 called the remote Associates tests. And the reason why it's 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:07.800 about association is that that creativity really comes from creating 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:11.480 associations between things that are disparate ideas, you know, things 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:13.239 that don't really have a lot to do with each other. 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:18.120 But you can of course create connections between anything. Creativity 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.200 isn't just oh I just made a connection between things 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.320 that aren't usually associated. His definition was that they have 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.480 to be new and useful. And I think that that's 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.920 the part that I think is really interesting for creativity 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:32.280 is not just that you're creating sort of oh, I, 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.160 you know, made these this new connection between these two, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.520 you know, the elephant and my grandmother. But it's actually 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:41.600 that somehow that the that that connection has been able 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:42.520 to solve a problem. 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:43.280 It's useful. 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.280 So that's really how I've explored the idea of creativity. 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.680 So you're not measuring overall problem solving. Like Adam's mom, 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.840 she does a crossword puzzle every day. Like, give me 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:58.600 an example of what you mean in terms of like 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.480 a creative associate that would be useful. 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:05.400 It could be something like a crossword, but really crosswords 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.320 are sort of learned behaviors that you can figure out 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:10.280 what the answers are and you just have this whole 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.400 store of knowledge. I think that the important part of 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:16.040 being able to have a creative idea is that it's 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.440 an original idea that you actually are seeing all the 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.159 elements of the problem and somehow you figured out how 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:27.080 those elements of the problem can conform together to create 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.440 a new and interesting, potentially useful idea. Like solving the 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.400 problem of a vaccine or solving the problem of how 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:36.560 to write a song. You found a way to put 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:40.400 them together that is new and useful and original. 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:41.440 Really really cool. 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.679 That's fast. I never really thought about creativity that way, Katie. 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.720 I mean I haven't either, but I know the zone 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.040 you're talking about, Like I know the zone. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.680 It's the same idea. It's the aha moment that we're 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:53.080 getting to. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:53.599 Oh yeah. 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.640 It's like when you're in flow and all of a 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.760 sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I just my brain 0:04:57.839 --> 0:05:01.320 fired on like a really sort of inspir tired kind 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:02.359 of way. You know. 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.320 Sometimes when I'm getting a lack of sleep, sometimes I 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:09.839 feel a sort of creativity flow through me, you know, 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.880 when it's like the middle of the night, I'm completely exhausted. 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.000 Sometimes I find that that's a creative space for me. 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.320 When Adam and I started dating, I would be asleep 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:24.440 at eleven PM and we lived in one room, and 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.440 he would have his computer up with music going and 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.280 headphones and he was just like making websites and making 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:33.479 short videos and all this stuff till four o'clock in 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:33.880 the morning. 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.599 Like yeah, but you know, that is the thing about 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:38.960 creative people. A lot of the time they are night people, 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.320 because it's a space where you have sonic and visual 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:49.680 and just attentional privacy. And I think, you know, whether 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.680 you really are biologically night people or whether it's just 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.960 a space where everyone else is asleep and your brain 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.400 can just go I but I have a lot to 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:02.000 say about exactly those two points that you made about 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:06.800 the relationship between REM sleep and creativity and the relationship 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:11.000 between sleep deprivation and creativity, because they're actually very similar 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.560 brain states. You know, when we go through sleep, we 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.719 go through several different stages of sleep, and at the 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.040 end of one sleep cycle, you go through this rapid 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.760 eye movement sleep or REM sleep, and it's a period 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:23.680 where we have all of our dreams, you know, these 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.680 kind of crazy, fanciful dreams. We dream in other types 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.119 of sleep as well, but these are the real wild ones. 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.679 They're very emotional and they're inspired dreams. But they also 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:37.200 have one particular aspect is that your brain at that 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.000 time has high amygdalah content, a lot of this kind 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:45.080 of emotional motivational content from the singulate and different areas 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:49.160 of that, but you also have very low prefrontal cortex input. 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:51.800 And the prefrontal cortex is kind of you can think 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.040 of it as the executive at the front who is 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.760 sort of making all the smart decisions, or you could 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.840 think of it as sort of rational mind, the rational 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.159 super ego, the parent, whatever it is that tells you, no, 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:05.120 don't think that that's a stupid idea. 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:06.320 Don't make those connections. 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.359 And so in rem sleep you actually have this brain 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:12.960 state where your creativity can flower. You can make these 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.160 wild associations, which is why when you're in your sort 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.520 of wild middle of the night whatever it is that 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.400 you're doing while everyone else is asleep, your brain is 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:25.840 also your frontal cortex is also at its ebb. You know, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.920 sleep deprivation first hits the frontal cortex and you see that, 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.200 you know, that whole brain area you start to stop 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.080 having as much glucose drawn to it, and this is 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:37.000 why you're more likely to, you know, eat bad foods 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:39.120 at night, meaning that that whole brain area is kind 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.440 of shutting down. It's tired, and so you can have 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.960 that same kind of creativity. You see these kind of 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:47.800 brain states as actually being pretty similar. 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.840 Wow, Katie mean, does that sounds exactly like? WHOA, I'm 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:53.760 just literally at my creative Oh. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:58.680 My god, he's working most creative self wild crushing ice cream. 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:02.280 And I'm showing on Yeah, ice cream Sundays and cookies. 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:02.760 Drew. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.680 I want to ask you something because I am the opposite, right, 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:07.080 I like to equate. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:08.120 I'm the opposite too. 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.680 Oh good, see Drew and I verse Shapiro over here, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.920 so like right, yeah, like so we're the creative. 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:16.600 We can all co exist happily. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.200 Yes, yes, Katie, I'm married to one. 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:20.880 We're married. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.320 This is literally what we do. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.880 I want to talk about, Like, what is the link 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.080 exactly between quality sleep? Thank you, Drew and Katie team 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:31.960 over here and creativity. 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.200 So I'm a composer and before I went to graduate 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.800 school in the mid Zeros, I was a tortured middle 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:43.800 of the night like candle light eating bad food, you know. 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:44.880 A composer. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.040 And I assumed because that was how it was, you know, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.520 an undergraduate where you'd never sleep and you're just up 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:52.600 all the time. And I just assumed that that was 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.640 how it operated. And I got to grad school and 0:08:55.679 --> 0:08:57.320 there was a point in there where we you know, 0:08:57.320 --> 0:08:59.160 we have to churn out a lot of music every 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.280 week just to get the discipline going. And sure, I 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:04.440 found that I was up at three in the morning, 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:06.120 and I go to bed, and I get up at 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:08.440 eight and look at what I'd written, and I hated 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:08.920 all of it. 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:10.439 And I had to rewrite. 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.520 It for like two hours, and I talked to one 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.920 of my classmates and she's like, oh, I just go 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:16.760 to bed at the same time every night, and if 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:18.960 I have to get up a little earlier to like 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.960 fix stuff, I do that. And my head exploded. I 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:24.640 was like, that's an option. Like I just didn't even 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:30.160 realize it. So now it's since then, my husband and 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.520 I both go to bed at ten thirty every night 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:34.800 and get up at six every morning, and every day, 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:37.320 seven days a week. And I mean sometimes we'll stay up, 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:39.120 you know, if we go out or whatever. But like 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.880 I have discovered since then that I hit peak flow 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.720 state at like eight am, and I go from like 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.760 eight to twelve, and I can write more efficiently in 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.760 those four hours than I ever could before because my 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.680 schedule is so regimented now me too, and I don't 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:56.400 even have to think about it. I don't have to 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.240 think about when I'm going to bed, I don't have 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.120 to think about when I'm getting up. I just I 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.559 just kind of go with the day and I'm always. 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:07.200 That's the schedule, and that's when this is allotted for. Yeah, Sarah, 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.280 can you talk? You said, I heard you say, yup, 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:12.480 me too, so can you speak to Is this also 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:18.880 true that quality sleep is connected to creative output, that's quality? 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:19.920 Yeah. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:22.440 So I mean it's really interesting because I think that 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.040 that is part of what it's like to be in 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:26.640 our twenties and being graduate school and be doing the 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:30.439 crazy life of wanting to be either the crazy scientist 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.679 or the crazy artist or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly, 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.680 the tortur itself, right, and then suddenly you hit a 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.040 wall and realize, wait a second, maybe this is actually 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.480 not working. And you know, we are superheroes when we're young, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.040 and we have unbelievable amounts of energy, and we can 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.720 overcome any amount of sleep deprivation and any amount of 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:52.160 junk food, and we can just be eating at three 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:53.920 am and doing all that kind of stuff. And then 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.360 suddenly you hit like your thirties, and everything just kind 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:00.199 of stops right and it stops working as well. And 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.640 I think that's when people really get into the idea 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:06.920 of hmm, when am I actually functional? And that is 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.320 for a lot of people the morning hours. So there's 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.360 the other part of sleep that's really important is called 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.840 non rapid I'm non rem sleep, or really the slow 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.720 wave sleep, and that stuff happens in the first period 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.920 of the night. So we have these two big bookends 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:25.960 of your night. Right when you get to sleep, you 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:27.959 go into this very restorative state. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.760 Yeah, that's my jay exactly, my favorite part. 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.280 I crushed the first half of a disaster. The second half. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:38.000 Oh that's great. 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.520 I mean, that's really the one that is all doing 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.439 all the brain cleaning and doing all the memory consolidation, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.880 and doing all your protein synthesis and all this really 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.880 important restorative stuff that keeps you young. And it actually 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:54.800 can only really happen in the first period of the night, 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:56.719 which is if you're a night person and you go 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.720 to bed at three and you probably are not getting 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:01.839 that actually driven by your circadian rhythm, So you really 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.800 want to try to get to sleep early because that 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.320 mixture of having this kind of non REM first and 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.080 then REM is actually very very important for being able 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.720 to process these creative ideas but also process your emotions 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:21.880 and process your memory and really learn from yourself in 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.440 a sort of a healthy creative way. If you have 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.840 too much REM, people with depression have too much REM, 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.720 or they have too early onset of REM, they stay 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:33.840 in REM for too long, and it's a very emotional 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:35.800 state that doesn't. 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:36.720 Have that. 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:39.599 I would say processing. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:42.199 Yeah, exactly. 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.480 It's like non REM is teaching you what actually is reality, 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.079 and then REM comes in and starts to make all 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.679 these creative associations between what really happened. So if you 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.880 don't have that non rem first and then you just 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.080 have too much REM, you can kind of be in 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.959 a state where you're really associative, but you're not necess 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.080 necessarily tuned into reality. 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.160 Okay, so hold on a second, Like, Okay, Drew, you're 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.920 a composer, would you say that some of the greatest 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.000 rock stars of all time are spending too much time 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.439 in the rim cycle? Like, for example, Keith Richards the 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:17.520 Rolling Stones wrote that guitar riff of I Can't Get 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:19.440 No Satisfaction, which is like one of my most favorite 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:19.880 songs ever. 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:22.040 And I read that this dude. 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.079 The story goes, he woke up in the middle of 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.320 the night, but he gets up and he writes, I 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:28.240 Can't Get No Satisfaction and. 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:29.880 He wrote the yeah, and he wrote the guitar riffs 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:30.520 in the middle of the night. 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:32.719 Okay, if it is true that Keith Richards woke in 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.199 the middle of the night wrote the guitar riff or 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:35.400 I can't get no satisfaction. 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:36.240 Wrote it down. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.679 I believe that completely, wrote it down real quick, went 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.640 back to sleep, woke up, played what he had written, 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:43.839 and was like, dang, this is. 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.319 Good, the opposite of my grad school experience. But yes, 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:50.280 do you think that that? But that's why he's Keith 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:51.120 Richards And I'm not. 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:56.480 Yes, well, come on, Drew, you are chasing sleeps Keith 0:13:56.600 --> 0:14:00.880 Richards my friend. But wait, do you think that that 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.160 is someone who just operates Sarah in getting a lot 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:05.560 more of the rem sleep. 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.800 So I think that there's a real strong stereotype about 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.640 artists that they're the Jackson Pollock or Keith Richards who 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.680 goes absolutely NonStop and never sleeps. And I think, for 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:19.160 the most part, that's kind of. 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.840 Bull I love this that. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:28.160 Many of the most famous artists are the most standardized 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.760 in terms of their schedule. They wear the same clothes 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.920 every day, they eat the same foods every day, they 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.360 stick to the same time to take a walk every day. 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.440 Because when you stick with their rhythm, which is you know, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.520 the whole book that I wrote last year, The Power 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.160 of the Downstate is all about our rhythms and The 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.400 truth is is that artists that I know who are 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:50.160 successful artists, they're up in the morning and they're in 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:53.280 their studio. They take their morning walk, you know, the 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.120 constitutional or they take in the afternoon, and they eat 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.040 the same foods, and they wear a uniform and they 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:04.160 stay inside this space of creativity while not being fettered 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.120 by all of the craziness of all the you know of. 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.000 You're creeping me out, Sarah, because you're describing my life. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:11.960 But anyway, is that right, Drew? 0:15:12.400 --> 0:15:14.640 Yeah, yeah, wait, absolutely, Drew. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:16.840 Take us through. So your day to day. 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:20.120 You're such a creative person, do you like wear the 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:21.160 same so tell us? 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.440 Tell us, yeah, well, like. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:24.680 I have five of the same jacket and a bunch 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:26.760 of the same shirts, and a bunch of vests and 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:28.920 a bunch of the same pants. And then I, you know, 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.040 I wear this if I'm going out. It's my armor 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:32.520 and I can just put it on and I feel 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.000 great wearing it, and so, uh yeah, I don't have 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.560 to think about it. I get up every morning at 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.480 the same time, I feed the cat, I make coffee, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.200 I do the crossword puzzle, if my husband make his lunch, 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:44.800 send him off to work, and then I go in 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:46.920 the studio or I do a podcast, which is what 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:52.160 I'm doing this morning. But I regimented every every morning, 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:54.320 like I don't even have to think about it, and. 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:55.480 That frees me up. 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:55.880 Yeah. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:57.720 Yeah, there's a point where you have to realize in 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.680 order to be a professional as a composer, I have 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.960 to be able to deliver X amount of music every 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:08.520 day at X quality level always. And so I figured 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.960 out at some point that that helps me get out 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:11.720 of my own. 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:13.360 Way in terms of being creative. 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.320 It's like I do this for a job, and once 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.440 you get into the pattern, it's like my brain is 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.720 ready for me to get into the studio at eight 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:22.040 in the morning, like it's excited to. 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:22.480 Be in there. 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.120 This has been a great conversation and we're going to 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:28.520 pick it up soon more Chasing Sleep in a moment. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.360 Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:40.160 We've been exploring how sleep is related to our creativity 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:45.080 with psychologist, author researcher Sarah Seed, Mednick and Andrew Edwards. 0:16:45.120 --> 0:16:48.640 Who needs to be at his creative best just score films, 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.640 TV shows and video games. I want to move on 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.200 to something called the twilight zone, which Adam, you got 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:56.840 to talk all about the twilight zone. I feel like 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:57.560 that's your space. 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.000 This is what some people call it. It's that time 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.720 between sleep and wakefulness, when you're sort of asleep and 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.479 you're sort of awake. But can you just tell us 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.920 a little bit about what is happening to our brains 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:12.760 and our bodies during this time? And then, Drew, I 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.320 want to ask you kind of what your experience with 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:16.199 this zone is. 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:17.280 You start to. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.800 Have what are called hypnogogic dreams, these very vivid experiences, right, 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.320 things that are salient for you, things that are on 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.959 your mind. And it's called stage one sleep, and it's 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.639 really just what most people think of as a transition 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.560 between wake and sleep. You can get into that kind 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:34.720 of crazy overthinking mind. 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.840 Is is that when you step on the stair that's 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:38.560 not there. 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:45.000 And you're those are called hypnic jerks, which I think 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:45.840 is a great line. 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:48.240 I always get those every night. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.960 I get one jerk before I sort of fall asleep. 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.080 One yeah, I do too. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.760 Yeah, And it's a very vivid dream, right where you 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.520 feel like you're falling or something right, and you suddenly yeah. 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:00.480 Yeah, for just like a second exactly. 0:18:00.840 --> 0:18:01.119 Yeah. 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.000 And so the thing that's interesting about stage one sleep 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.320 is that you have the same sort of brain activity 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.720 as you have in REM sleep, but you just don't 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.520 have that atonius. So when you're in REM sleep, you 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:16.439 have is no muscle control. You're totally paralyzed, which is 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:18.280 good because it means that you're not going to act 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.320 out all your crazy dreams. But in stage one sleep 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.320 you still are able to move right. You have that 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.000 kind of sudden jerk experience. 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:26.760 Oh that makes sense. 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:28.320 Yeah, yeah, that's right, Drew. 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.320 I wanted to ask you about that, like you do 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.000 you have experience with that sort of zone. 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.240