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Speaker 1: Hey, Katie, do you think I'm creative?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Of course you are.

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Speaker 4: I don't see too many other people coming up with

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Speaker 4: everything flavored pretzels, do you.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't.

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Speaker 4: I'm curious, though, Adam, have you ever thought about how

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Speaker 4: a good night's sleep impacts your creative choices as an

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Speaker 4: actor and a pretzel maker?

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Speaker 2: Well, ever since I became an actor and a pretzel maker,

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Speaker 2: I haven't really gotten that much sleep.

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Speaker 1: But I should check that out. Yes, I'm Adam Shapiro.

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Speaker 4: And I'm Katie Lowe's. This is Chasing Sleep, a production

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Speaker 4: of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.

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Speaker 4: In this episode, we explore the relationship between sleep and creativity.

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Speaker 4: I always think that creativity is so linked with sleep

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Speaker 4: for me, Like, at night, I'll read my lines for

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Speaker 4: the next day and think a lot about the character

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Speaker 4: and where they come from and what their parents were

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Speaker 4: like and things like that, and I'll go to sleep,

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Speaker 4: and really I feel like it's just sort of subconscious

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Speaker 4: being digested in process somewhere in my dreams, and when

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Speaker 4: I wake up, not only are my lines better put

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Speaker 4: in my head for memorization.

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Speaker 3: But I feel like my creativity has been sparked. Do

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Speaker 3: you ever have that?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean absolutely.

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Speaker 2: If I get a good night's sleep before I show

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Speaker 2: up on set, I'm a monster. And then also the

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Speaker 2: other thing is like, you know, when I know that

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Speaker 2: I'm improving a lot, if it's a comedy or I'm

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Speaker 2: playing a character and a drama, that's got to improvise

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Speaker 2: a lot, I.

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Speaker 5: Have to be sharp exactly.

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Speaker 4: Our guests are both creative people too. Doctor Sarah C.

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Speaker 4: Mednick is the author of the Power of the Downstate.

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Speaker 4: She's done extensive research on the link between quality sleep

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Speaker 4: and our ability to be creative.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Sarah, thanks for having us. We also have respective

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Speaker 2: composer Andrew M. Edwards joining us. You may not know

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Speaker 2: him by name, but you've probably heard his musical scores

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Speaker 2: in films and TV. He often gets the call when

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Speaker 2: a show needs creative music that helps build.

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Speaker 1: Some mystery and suspense. True.

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Speaker 5: Welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: This is so exciting.

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Speaker 4: I mean, as two creatives as Adam and I are,

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Speaker 4: that we are actors, and I guess what you would

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Speaker 4: call creative people.

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Speaker 3: Although everyone's a creative person, right.

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Speaker 4: I like to think so, yeah, I think that it

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Speaker 4: doesn't even matter what line of work you happen to

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Speaker 4: be in or what your day to day is. I

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Speaker 4: feel like giving your brain creative space to exist in

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Speaker 4: is helpful for.

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Speaker 3: Everyone in any way.

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Speaker 4: Sarah, this seems like a silly question, but we got

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Speaker 4: to start with the basics. Okay, So when you research

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Speaker 4: the relationship between sleep and creativity, like, what are we

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Speaker 4: talking about? How do you even define and measure creativity?

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Speaker 6: I mean, creativity can be actually defined in so many

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Speaker 6: different ways, and so I've chosen a definition that actually

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Speaker 6: my father worked on years ago in the sixties. It's

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Speaker 6: called the remote Associates tests. And the reason why it's

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Speaker 6: about association is that that creativity really comes from creating

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Speaker 6: associations between things that are disparate ideas, you know, things

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Speaker 6: that don't really have a lot to do with each other.

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Speaker 6: But you can of course create connections between anything. Creativity

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Speaker 6: isn't just oh I just made a connection between things

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Speaker 6: that aren't usually associated. His definition was that they have

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Speaker 6: to be new and useful. And I think that that's

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Speaker 6: the part that I think is really interesting for creativity

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Speaker 6: is not just that you're creating sort of oh, I,

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Speaker 6: you know, made these this new connection between these two,

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Speaker 6: you know, the elephant and my grandmother. But it's actually

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Speaker 6: that somehow that the that that connection has been able

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Speaker 6: to solve a problem.

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Speaker 7: It's useful.

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Speaker 6: So that's really how I've explored the idea of creativity.

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Speaker 4: So you're not measuring overall problem solving. Like Adam's mom,

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Speaker 4: she does a crossword puzzle every day. Like, give me

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Speaker 4: an example of what you mean in terms of like

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Speaker 4: a creative associate that would be useful.

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Speaker 6: It could be something like a crossword, but really crosswords

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Speaker 6: are sort of learned behaviors that you can figure out

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Speaker 6: what the answers are and you just have this whole

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Speaker 6: store of knowledge. I think that the important part of

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Speaker 6: being able to have a creative idea is that it's

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Speaker 6: an original idea that you actually are seeing all the

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Speaker 6: elements of the problem and somehow you figured out how

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Speaker 6: those elements of the problem can conform together to create

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Speaker 6: a new and interesting, potentially useful idea. Like solving the

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Speaker 6: problem of a vaccine or solving the problem of how

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Speaker 6: to write a song. You found a way to put

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Speaker 6: them together that is new and useful and original.

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Speaker 3: Really really cool.

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Speaker 1: That's fast. I never really thought about creativity that way, Katie.

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Speaker 4: I mean I haven't either, but I know the zone

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Speaker 4: you're talking about, Like I know the zone.

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Speaker 6: It's the same idea. It's the aha moment that we're

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Speaker 6: getting to.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: It's like when you're in flow and all of a

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Speaker 4: sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I just my brain

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Speaker 4: fired on like a really sort of inspir tired kind

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Speaker 4: of way. You know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when I'm getting a lack of sleep, sometimes I

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Speaker 2: feel a sort of creativity flow through me, you know,

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Speaker 2: when it's like the middle of the night, I'm completely exhausted.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I find that that's a creative space for me.

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Speaker 4: When Adam and I started dating, I would be asleep

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Speaker 4: at eleven PM and we lived in one room, and

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Speaker 4: he would have his computer up with music going and

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Speaker 4: headphones and he was just like making websites and making

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Speaker 4: short videos and all this stuff till four o'clock in

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Speaker 4: the morning.

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Speaker 6: Like yeah, but you know, that is the thing about

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Speaker 6: creative people. A lot of the time they are night people,

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Speaker 6: because it's a space where you have sonic and visual

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Speaker 6: and just attentional privacy. And I think, you know, whether

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Speaker 6: you really are biologically night people or whether it's just

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Speaker 6: a space where everyone else is asleep and your brain

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Speaker 6: can just go I but I have a lot to

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Speaker 6: say about exactly those two points that you made about

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Speaker 6: the relationship between REM sleep and creativity and the relationship

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Speaker 6: between sleep deprivation and creativity, because they're actually very similar

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Speaker 6: brain states. You know, when we go through sleep, we

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Speaker 6: go through several different stages of sleep, and at the

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Speaker 6: end of one sleep cycle, you go through this rapid

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Speaker 6: eye movement sleep or REM sleep, and it's a period

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Speaker 6: where we have all of our dreams, you know, these

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Speaker 6: kind of crazy, fanciful dreams. We dream in other types

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Speaker 6: of sleep as well, but these are the real wild ones.

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Speaker 6: They're very emotional and they're inspired dreams. But they also

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Speaker 6: have one particular aspect is that your brain at that

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Speaker 6: time has high amygdalah content, a lot of this kind

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Speaker 6: of emotional motivational content from the singulate and different areas

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Speaker 6: of that, but you also have very low prefrontal cortex input.

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Speaker 6: And the prefrontal cortex is kind of you can think

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Speaker 6: of it as the executive at the front who is

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Speaker 6: sort of making all the smart decisions, or you could

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Speaker 6: think of it as sort of rational mind, the rational

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Speaker 6: super ego, the parent, whatever it is that tells you, no,

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Speaker 6: don't think that that's a stupid idea.

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Speaker 7: Don't make those connections.

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Speaker 6: And so in rem sleep you actually have this brain

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Speaker 6: state where your creativity can flower. You can make these

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Speaker 6: wild associations, which is why when you're in your sort

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Speaker 6: of wild middle of the night whatever it is that

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Speaker 6: you're doing while everyone else is asleep, your brain is

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Speaker 6: also your frontal cortex is also at its ebb. You know,

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Speaker 6: sleep deprivation first hits the frontal cortex and you see that,

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Speaker 6: you know, that whole brain area you start to stop

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Speaker 6: having as much glucose drawn to it, and this is

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Speaker 6: why you're more likely to, you know, eat bad foods

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Speaker 6: at night, meaning that that whole brain area is kind

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Speaker 6: of shutting down. It's tired, and so you can have

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Speaker 6: that same kind of creativity. You see these kind of

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Speaker 6: brain states as actually being pretty similar.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Katie mean, does that sounds exactly like? WHOA, I'm

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Speaker 2: just literally at my creative Oh.

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Speaker 4: My god, he's working most creative self wild crushing ice cream.

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Speaker 2: And I'm showing on Yeah, ice cream Sundays and cookies.

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Speaker 1: Drew.

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Speaker 4: I want to ask you something because I am the opposite, right,

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Speaker 4: I like to equate.

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Speaker 5: I'm the opposite too.

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Speaker 4: Oh good, see Drew and I verse Shapiro over here,

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Speaker 4: so like right, yeah, like so we're the creative.

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Speaker 5: We can all co exist happily.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Katie, I'm married to one.

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Speaker 3: We're married.

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Speaker 1: This is literally what we do.

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Speaker 4: I want to talk about, Like, what is the link

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Speaker 4: exactly between quality sleep? Thank you, Drew and Katie team

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Speaker 4: over here and creativity.

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Speaker 8: So I'm a composer and before I went to graduate

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Speaker 8: school in the mid Zeros, I was a tortured middle

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Speaker 8: of the night like candle light eating bad food, you know.

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Speaker 5: A composer.

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Speaker 8: And I assumed because that was how it was, you know,

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Speaker 8: an undergraduate where you'd never sleep and you're just up

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Speaker 8: all the time. And I just assumed that that was

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Speaker 8: how it operated. And I got to grad school and

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Speaker 8: there was a point in there where we you know,

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Speaker 8: we have to churn out a lot of music every

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Speaker 8: week just to get the discipline going. And sure, I

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Speaker 8: found that I was up at three in the morning,

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Speaker 8: and I go to bed, and I get up at

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Speaker 8: eight and look at what I'd written, and I hated

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Speaker 8: all of it.

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Speaker 5: And I had to rewrite.

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Speaker 8: It for like two hours, and I talked to one

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Speaker 8: of my classmates and she's like, oh, I just go

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Speaker 8: to bed at the same time every night, and if

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Speaker 8: I have to get up a little earlier to like

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Speaker 8: fix stuff, I do that. And my head exploded. I

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Speaker 8: was like, that's an option. Like I just didn't even

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Speaker 8: realize it. So now it's since then, my husband and

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Speaker 8: I both go to bed at ten thirty every night

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Speaker 8: and get up at six every morning, and every day,

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Speaker 8: seven days a week. And I mean sometimes we'll stay up,

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Speaker 8: you know, if we go out or whatever. But like

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Speaker 8: I have discovered since then that I hit peak flow

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Speaker 8: state at like eight am, and I go from like

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Speaker 8: eight to twelve, and I can write more efficiently in

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Speaker 8: those four hours than I ever could before because my

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Speaker 8: schedule is so regimented now me too, and I don't

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Speaker 8: even have to think about it. I don't have to

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Speaker 8: think about when I'm going to bed, I don't have

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Speaker 8: to think about when I'm getting up. I just I

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Speaker 8: just kind of go with the day and I'm always.

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Speaker 4: That's the schedule, and that's when this is allotted for. Yeah, Sarah,

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Speaker 4: can you talk? You said, I heard you say, yup,

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Speaker 4: me too, so can you speak to Is this also

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Speaker 4: true that quality sleep is connected to creative output, that's quality?

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So I mean it's really interesting because I think that

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Speaker 6: that is part of what it's like to be in

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Speaker 6: our twenties and being graduate school and be doing the

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Speaker 6: crazy life of wanting to be either the crazy scientist

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Speaker 6: or the crazy artist or whatever it is. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 6: the tortur itself, right, and then suddenly you hit a

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Speaker 6: wall and realize, wait a second, maybe this is actually

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Speaker 6: not working. And you know, we are superheroes when we're young,

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Speaker 6: and we have unbelievable amounts of energy, and we can

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Speaker 6: overcome any amount of sleep deprivation and any amount of

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Speaker 6: junk food, and we can just be eating at three

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Speaker 6: am and doing all that kind of stuff. And then

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Speaker 6: suddenly you hit like your thirties, and everything just kind

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Speaker 6: of stops right and it stops working as well. And

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Speaker 6: I think that's when people really get into the idea

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Speaker 6: of hmm, when am I actually functional? And that is

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Speaker 6: for a lot of people the morning hours. So there's

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Speaker 6: the other part of sleep that's really important is called

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Speaker 6: non rapid I'm non rem sleep, or really the slow

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Speaker 6: wave sleep, and that stuff happens in the first period

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Speaker 6: of the night. So we have these two big bookends

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Speaker 6: of your night. Right when you get to sleep, you

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Speaker 6: go into this very restorative state.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's my jay exactly, my favorite part.

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Speaker 3: I crushed the first half of a disaster. The second half.

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Speaker 7: Oh that's great.

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Speaker 6: I mean, that's really the one that is all doing

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Speaker 6: all the brain cleaning and doing all the memory consolidation,

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Speaker 6: and doing all your protein synthesis and all this really

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Speaker 6: important restorative stuff that keeps you young. And it actually

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Speaker 6: can only really happen in the first period of the night,

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Speaker 6: which is if you're a night person and you go

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Speaker 6: to bed at three and you probably are not getting

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Speaker 6: that actually driven by your circadian rhythm, So you really

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Speaker 6: want to try to get to sleep early because that

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Speaker 6: mixture of having this kind of non REM first and

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Speaker 6: then REM is actually very very important for being able

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Speaker 6: to process these creative ideas but also process your emotions

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Speaker 6: and process your memory and really learn from yourself in

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Speaker 6: a sort of a healthy creative way. If you have

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Speaker 6: too much REM, people with depression have too much REM,

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Speaker 6: or they have too early onset of REM, they stay

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Speaker 6: in REM for too long, and it's a very emotional

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Speaker 6: state that doesn't.

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Speaker 7: Have that.

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Speaker 3: I would say processing.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 6: It's like non REM is teaching you what actually is reality,

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Speaker 6: and then REM comes in and starts to make all

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Speaker 6: these creative associations between what really happened. So if you

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Speaker 6: don't have that non rem first and then you just

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Speaker 6: have too much REM, you can kind of be in

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Speaker 6: a state where you're really associative, but you're not necess

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Speaker 6: necessarily tuned into reality.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so hold on a second, Like, Okay, Drew, you're

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Speaker 4: a composer, would you say that some of the greatest

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Speaker 4: rock stars of all time are spending too much time

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Speaker 4: in the rim cycle? Like, for example, Keith Richards the

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Speaker 4: Rolling Stones wrote that guitar riff of I Can't Get

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Speaker 4: No Satisfaction, which is like one of my most favorite

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Speaker 4: songs ever.

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Speaker 3: And I read that this dude.

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Speaker 4: The story goes, he woke up in the middle of

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Speaker 4: the night, but he gets up and he writes, I

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Speaker 4: Can't Get No Satisfaction and he.

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Speaker 5: Wrote the yeah, and he wrote the guitar riffs in

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Speaker 5: the middle of the night.

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Speaker 4: Okay, if it is true that Keith Richards woke in

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Speaker 4: the middle of the night wrote the guitar riff or

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Speaker 4: I can't get no satisfaction.

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Speaker 3: Wrote it down.

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Speaker 4: I believe that completely, wrote it down real quick, went

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Speaker 4: back to sleep, woke up, played what he had written,

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Speaker 4: and was like, dang.

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Speaker 8: This is good, the opposite of my grad school experience.

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Speaker 3: But yes, do you think that that?

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Speaker 5: But that's why he's Keith Richards And I'm not.

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Speaker 4: Yes, well, come on, Drew, you are chasing sleeps Keith

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Speaker 4: Richards my friend. But wait, do you think that that

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Speaker 4: is someone who just operates Sarah in getting a lot

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Speaker 4: more of the rem sleep.

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Speaker 6: So I think that there's a real strong stereotype about

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Speaker 6: artists that they're the Jackson Pollock or Keith Richards who

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Speaker 6: goes absolutely NonStop and never sleeps. And I think, for

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Speaker 6: the most part, that's kind of.

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Speaker 3: Bull I love this that.

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Speaker 6: Many of the most famous artists are the most standardized

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Speaker 6: in terms of their schedule. They wear the same clothes

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Speaker 6: every day, they eat the same foods every day, they

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Speaker 6: stick to the same time to take a walk every day.

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Speaker 6: Because when you stick with their rhythm, which is you know,

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Speaker 6: the whole book that I wrote last year, The Power

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Speaker 6: of the Downstate is all about our rhythms and The

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Speaker 6: truth is is that artists that I know who are

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Speaker 6: successful artists, they're up in the morning and they're in

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Speaker 6: their studio. They take their morning walk, you know, the

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Speaker 6: constitutional or they take in the afternoon, and they eat

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Speaker 6: the same foods, and they wear a uniform and they

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Speaker 6: stay inside this space of creativity while not being fettered

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Speaker 6: by all of the craziness of all the you know of.

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Speaker 8: You're creeping me out, Sarah, because you're describing my life.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, is that right, Drew?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, wait, absolutely, Drew.

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Speaker 3: Take us through. So your day to day.

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Speaker 4: You're such a creative person, do you like wear the

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Speaker 4: same so tell us?

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Speaker 5: Tell us, yeah, well, like I.

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Speaker 8: Have five of the same jacket and a bunch of

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Speaker 8: the same shirts, and a bunch of vests and a

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Speaker 8: bunch of the same pants. And then I, you know,

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Speaker 8: I wear this if I'm going out. It's my armor

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Speaker 8: and I can just put it on and I feel

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Speaker 8: great wearing it, and so, uh yeah, I don't have

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Speaker 8: to think about it. I get up every morning at

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Speaker 8: the same time, I feed the cat, I make coffee,

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Speaker 8: I do the crossword puzzle, if my husband make his lunch,

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Speaker 8: send him off to work, and then I go in

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Speaker 8: the studio or I do a podcast, which is what

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Speaker 8: I'm doing this morning. But I regimented every every morning,

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Speaker 8: like I don't even have to think about it, and.

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Speaker 5: That frees me up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, there's a point where you have to realize in

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Speaker 8: order to be a professional as a composer, I have

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Speaker 8: to be able to deliver X amount of music every

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Speaker 8: day at X quality level always. And so I figured

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Speaker 8: out at some point that that helps me get out

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Speaker 8: of my own.

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Speaker 5: Way in terms of being creative.

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Speaker 8: It's like I do this for a job, and once

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Speaker 8: you get into the pattern, it's like my brain is

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Speaker 8: ready for me to get into the studio at eight

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Speaker 8: in the morning, like it's excited to.

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Speaker 5: Be in there.

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Speaker 2: This has been a great conversation and we're going to

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Speaker 2: pick it up soon more Chasing Sleep in a moment.

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to Chasing Sleep.

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Speaker 4: We've been exploring how sleep is related to our creativity

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Speaker 4: with psychologist, author researcher Sarah Seed, Mednick and Andrew Edwards.

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Speaker 4: Who needs to be at his creative best just score films,

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Speaker 4: TV shows and video games. I want to move on

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Speaker 4: to something called the twilight zone, which Adam, you got

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Speaker 4: to talk all about the twilight zone. I feel like

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Speaker 4: that's your space.

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Speaker 2: This is what some people call it. It's that time

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Speaker 2: in between sleep and wakefulness when you're sort of asleep

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Speaker 2: and you're sort of awake. But can you just tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit about what is happening to our

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Speaker 2: brains and our bodies during this time? And then, Drew,

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Speaker 2: I want to ask you kind of what your experience

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Speaker 2: with this zone is.

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Speaker 7: You start to.

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Speaker 6: Have what are called hypnogogic dreams, these very vivid experiences, right,

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Speaker 6: things that are salient for you, things that are on

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Speaker 6: your mind. And it's called stage one sleep, and it's

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Speaker 6: really just what most people think of as a transition

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Speaker 6: between wake and sleep. You can get into that kind

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Speaker 6: of crazy overthinking mind.

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Speaker 8: Is is that when you step on the stair that's

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Speaker 8: not there.

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Speaker 6: And you're those are called hypnic jerks, which I think

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Speaker 6: is a great line.

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Speaker 1: I always get those every night.

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Speaker 2: I get one jerk before I sort of fall asleep.

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Speaker 1: One yeah, I do too.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, And it's a very vivid dream, right where you

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Speaker 6: feel like you're falling or something right, and you suddenly.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, for just like a second exactly.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: And so the thing that's interesting about stage one sleep

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Speaker 6: is that you have the same sort of brain activity

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Speaker 6: as you have in REM sleep, but you just don't

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Speaker 6: have that atonius. So when you're in REM sleep, you

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Speaker 6: have is no muscle control. You're totally paralyzed, which is

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Speaker 6: good because it means that you're not going to act

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Speaker 6: out all your crazy dreams. But in stage one sleep

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Speaker 6: you still are able to move right. You have that

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Speaker 6: kind of sudden jerk experience.

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Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's right, Drew.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you about that, Like you do

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Speaker 2: you have experience with that sort of zone.

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Speaker 8: I feel like I get into that zone when you

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Speaker 8: just have to stay up and keep working, where when

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Speaker 8: you're super tired, you lose your you know, your.

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Speaker 7: Frontal frontal cortex.

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Speaker 5: Cortex control element.

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Speaker 8: I feel like when I get into that space, you know,

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Speaker 8: I'm just knocking the wall down with my head. I'm

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Speaker 8: definitely not at my optimal there, and if I get

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Speaker 8: any random ideas, I tend to forget them.

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Speaker 6: Right, you also need your frontal lobe to form memory,

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Speaker 6: so that's why you forget that.

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Speaker 8: I think that just comes down to the fact that

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Speaker 8: I'm so used to working when I'm like sharp and focused,

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Speaker 8: you know, in the morning with a good night of sleep.

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Speaker 2: Here you also came up with an accidental great band

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Speaker 2: name called Cortex Control Element.

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Speaker 3: Yeah that is good.

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Speaker 1: I like that.

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Speaker 8: It's an industrial band, into industrial totally.

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Speaker 7: I also like Hypnic Jerks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Hypnic Jerks is a good Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I always thought that was a good like punk band.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a punk band for sure.

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Speaker 4: Okay, sleeping and napping is a huge component to my creativity.

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Speaker 4: It's like, if I am having a trouble memorizing a

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Speaker 4: line or really feeling inspired about an acting scene, we

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Speaker 4: would get an hour lunch break. Let's say on the

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Speaker 4: set of Scandal, I would go back to my trailer,

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Speaker 4: which Adam would call my like nap sanctuary.

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Speaker 3: Even if it was fifteen minutes or twenty minutes.

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Speaker 4: I would read the scene, I would think about it,

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Speaker 4: and I would sometimes completely conk out. And sometimes I'd

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Speaker 4: be in this weird sort of meditative sleep and I

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Speaker 4: would wake up from that and I would have ideas

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Speaker 4: that I didn't have.

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Speaker 3: The lines would be.

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Speaker 4: There, which is weird, and when I would wake up,

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Speaker 4: my perspective would have shifted.

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Speaker 6: This is straight out of my own laboratory. I work

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Speaker 6: with an artist named Lyla Friedland, and we did a

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Speaker 6: show at the Scope Art Fair called the imagine Aption

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Speaker 6: where we did exactly as you said. We built this soundproof,

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Speaker 6: beautiful soundproof room and we had this really nice bed.

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Speaker 6: We'd have people lie down and we'd go in there

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Speaker 6: with them and we'd say, okay, think of a problem.

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Speaker 6: Think of all the elements of the problem. We'd write

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00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 6: it down for them on this board and then we

448
00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 6: would say, okay, it's time for a nap, and then

449
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 6: we would have the light and it was you know,

450
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 6: it was a sunrise when they woke up, and it

451
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 6: was a sunset light situation when they went to sleep,

452
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 6: and then we would let them nap for maybe twenty minutes,

453
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 6: maybe a little bit longer, and then we would turn

454
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 6: on the lights so it was a sunrise. And then

455
00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:57,120
Speaker 6: we'd just walk in there and say, okay, what were

456
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 6: you thinking about? And then we would put together this

457
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 6: the thoughts that came up with them so that we

458
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 6: could have them sort of figure out problems for themselves.

459
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 7: It was a really great project.

460
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 1: But it's straight that's a really cool story.

461
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was straight out of my lab because that's

462
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 6: exactly what we're finding is that if you really can,

463
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,280
Speaker 6: you know, put put the elements of the problem up

464
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,880
Speaker 6: at the forefront of your mind and then take a nap,

465
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 6: you can wake up and have potentially have some solutions there.

466
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 8: I was just gonna dovetail off of what Sarah was

467
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 8: talking about. This sort of thing I did that really

468
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,560
Speaker 8: has helped me immensely is splitting when I'm writing, like

469
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 8: being purely creative, and when I'm editing myself. I made

470
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 8: those completely separate things, like I do one in the

471
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 8: morning and I do the other in the afternoon, with

472
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 8: like a break in between.

473
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 5: Oh wow, because then when I'm in my flow.

474
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,159
Speaker 7: State, what do you do in the morning?

475
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 5: I just write, you know.

476
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 8: And so if I write five notes, this is the

477
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 8: thing any writer or composer will know. You write five

478
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 8: words or five notes, and then you sit there for

479
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 8: three hours wondering if those are the right five notes,

480
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 8: instead of like are those the right five words? Instead

481
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 8: of just keeping on right, like, just keep writing and

482
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,879
Speaker 8: then see what you have when you're done, you know,

483
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 8: when you're tired and you need to go take a nap.

484
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 8: And yeah, so yeah, splitting those two things made it

485
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 8: so that I can just crank in the morning on

486
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,120
Speaker 8: music because I'm just playing and it's just coming out,

487
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 8: and then in the afternoon I can go back and

488
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 8: look at it and be like, oh, that would be

489
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 8: better there, and that would be better there, and then

490
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:28,640
Speaker 8: I'll erase that and.

491
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 7: Take a nap, Change Your Life was my first book.

492
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 3: Take a Nap, Change your Life. This is all me,

493
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: This is all me.

494
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 7: It's all about that. It's basically, you can get two

495
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 7: days out of your day.

496
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,719
Speaker 6: That was my whole graduate work was all about napping

497
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,479
Speaker 6: and showing that people could be twice as creative, and

498
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 6: they could have twice the memory consolidation effects they and

499
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 6: they twice the perceptual changes, Like you know, you didn't

500
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 6: need a whole night of sleep. You could take a

501
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,960
Speaker 6: nap in the middle of a day and get the

502
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 6: same benefits as a night of sleep, and then have

503
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 6: you know this, the second part of your day just

504
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:02,640
Speaker 6: be as effective.

505
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 3: No, I'm losing my mind.

506
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 4: I think this is the most important podcast that's ever

507
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 4: been created since the beginning of time, Drew, have you

508
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,359
Speaker 4: ever had something like that where you've come up with

509
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 4: an idea or solution in your great quality sleep schedule

510
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 4: that you have or have you ever like put out

511
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 4: a creative question before going to bed and wake up

512
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 4: with the answers.

513
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 8: I have to be careful about doing that because I

514
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 8: am prone to go through one rem cycle, get up

515
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 8: at three in the morning and start making lists in

516
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 8: my head.

517
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: Have you ever written music? Do you write music in

518
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 4: your sleep?

519
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 5: I have?

520
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 4: Like, I just think being a composer must be the

521
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,119
Speaker 4: coolest thing in the world.

522
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 8: I don't do a lot of sort of dream got

523
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 8: it conceptual. I did write a piano concerto in my

524
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 8: sleep in college and then immediately forgot it when.

525
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 7: I wrote when I woke up so frustrating, I write.

526
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 8: I remember that vividly it was there because I can't

527
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 8: remember it. I remember it because I can't remember it.

528
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 6: But I mean what you're saying, it takes so much focus, right,

529
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 6: It takes so much being so present, and if you're

530
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 6: sleep deprived, it's really hard to go with a thought

531
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,479
Speaker 6: whatever it is, right. So I think that no matter what,

532
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 6: it's going to require a well rested mind.

533
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 7: I mean, that's you know.

534
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 8: Well, otherwise it's really hard to get out of your

535
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 8: own way, like you're the problem. Otherwise, like if I

536
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 8: can't focus, it's because maybe I went out the night

537
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 8: before to a party or whatever, and I get up

538
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 8: in the morning and I'm not going to start writing

539
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 8: till ten, you know, because I'm like, I'm gonna sit.

540
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 5: And play video games for an hour.

541
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 1: Yeah whatever.

542
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,439
Speaker 6: I think that concept of getting out of your own

543
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 6: way is so critical. I think that that's such a

544
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 6: critical important thing.

545
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: Very cool, Drew, I would love to hear your score

546
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: for this podcast episode.

547
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: Oh me too, It's what I do you know?

548
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:50,919
Speaker 8: Like?

549
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: Where would that go?

550
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 2: Me?

551
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: Three?

552
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 5: I hang on just a second.

553
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 1: You can't swing a cat and Drew's place without hitting.

554
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 2: This is so exciting, And Sarah, I wanted to ask

555
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: you what do we not know still about creativity and sleep?

556
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 2: You know, if you if you could jump into a

557
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 2: new study right now, what would that study be?

558
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 7: Oh so much.

559
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 6: I would love to know are there individual differences that

560
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 6: ideas everybody creative or are there some people who can

561
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,679
Speaker 6: actually put themselves into a zone and then what is

562
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 6: actually happening in the brain. So I think that would

563
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 6: be really the forefront. Is it actually seeing the neural

564
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 6: mechanism of creativity and action? Would be a really exciting

565
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 6: next step.

566
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 5: I have a good turn.

567
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm going to set you up.

568
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: This is Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from

569
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.

570
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 8: Honestly, it would be very I mean, there wouldn't be

571
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 8: a lot there because we're talking a lot. I don't

572
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 8: want to get in the way of the dialogue. The

573
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 8: dialogue is the dialogue is another line of counterpoint.

574
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 4: Oh see, Okay, Let's say Drew, you were going to

575
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 4: take us into a really nice quality night of sleep

576
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 4: or a sleep creative nap.

577
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 3: What would you play us? What would what would sound nice?

578
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 5: Dreamy chords?

579
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 3: That sounds so nice?

580
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 4: Okay, Now, if you were going to be the hypno jerk,

581
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 4: is that what it's called hypnic jerk?

582
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 3: If you were the hypnic jerk hypnic jerks?

583
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 8: Oh no, if I know, if you see, if it

584
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 8: was hypnick jerks, you see, I broke a string on

585
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 8: this guitar just now, so like so yeah, we're ready

586
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 8: for hypnick Jersey.

587
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 5: It's hard to say.

588
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 8: It's hard to make a twelve strings sound angry.

589
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 4: So yay, Drew, Yay, Sarah, creatively awesome.

590
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: Katie and I just really want to thank you guys,

591
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: Sarah and Drew for being here. This has been another

592
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: mind melting episode of Jason Sleep.

593
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for being.

594
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 7: Here, Thanks for having us.

595
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a pleasure. Thank you.

596
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: I thought this would be the episode that we sort

597
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: of connected with the easiest, but that being said, it is.

598
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 5: Oh.

599
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 3: All signs in this episode pointed to you getting.

600
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 2: On a better sleep schedule and a better routine, which

601
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 2: is so funny because I've always thought of creativity as

602
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 2: the opposite, you know what I mean.

603
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 4: If she didn't nail it by saying, artists we think

604
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 4: of as dark and brooding and up all night and

605
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 4: wild and all of this stuff, and she's like, no, Actually,

606
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: like the most creative people are wearing the same things,

607
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 4: are on a sleep schedule and getting quality sleep.

608
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: One of the things that I thought really inspired me

609
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 2: about what dr was saying was the fact that he

610
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: knows so well when he's at his most creative and

611
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: how that relates to his sleep. His routine has enabled

612
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 2: him him to be able to schedule and depend on

613
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 2: his creativity in a way that I've never been.

614
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: Able to do.

615
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: Honey, you're going to try this week.

616
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, now that I'm a parent, and I'm a husband,

617
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 2: and I got two full time jobs, and I host

618
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: a podcast. I think scheduling my creativity would really I'd

619
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: really benefit from something like that, and getting to know

620
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: exactly when it is that I'm at my most creative

621
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: could really help me sort of organize my day a

622
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 2: little bit.

623
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: Yes.

624
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:32,680
Speaker 3: Also, weren't you mind blown by the actual definition that

625
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: she gave of creativity?

626
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 2: Yes, that was really I never really thought of creativity

627
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: as problem solving.

628
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 4: And also just taking two ideas or plans or whatever

629
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 4: that aren't necessarily associated with each other, which is what

630
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 4: we do when we sleep and dream.

631
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: We make these associations.

632
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 3: You make an association that is original.

633
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: Well, working in a creative environment.

634
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 2: I'm excited because our next episode is going to be

635
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: specifically about sleep and work. So we can get our

636
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: ducks in a row with our sleep and then we

637
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: can start talking about sleep and work.

638
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: I can't wait to hear about that.

639
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 4: And we are several episodes in now, Adam, so we

640
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: really want your all's.

641
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,719
Speaker 3: Uses use guys's.

642
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 4: Opinions about the podcast, So please go to your podcast player,

643
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: give us a rating, or maybe even write a short review.

644
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: Please or hit us up on our socials. You can

645
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 2: find me on the Gram at Shappy Shapes.

646
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 3: And me too on the Gram at kt q Low's.

647
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: And Another Thing. Follow or subscribe to Chasing Sleep on

648
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: your apps so that you never miss an episode.

649
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 4: Until next time, Hoping you're living your best while sleeping

650
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 4: your best. Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios

651
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 4: from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer

652
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: is Mallisosha.

653
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: This show was written and produced by Sound That Brands

654
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 2: Dave Beasting, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.

655
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 4: Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.

656
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm.