1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Hi, it's acua. Australia's twenty twenty two election was labeled 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: the Climate Election, and that resulted in a big shift 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: in the country's politics. With only a three year parliamentary cycle, 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: Australia will once again go to the polls on May third. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: This time, Donald Trump's shadow looms large over whatever happens. 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: So will it be another climate election this year? Bloomberg 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: Green's editor in Asia, David Stringer, has the answer in 8 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: this episode for our sister podcast, Bloomberg Australia. I wanted 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: to share it with zero listeners. Enjoy it and we'll 10 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: be back with a regular episode later this week. 11 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 2: Three years ago, Australia was on the verge of an 12 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: election dominated by a wave of independent mpaigns who promised 13 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: a climate change reckoning. We're heading to the polls again 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: in just over two weeks, so where are all the 15 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: climate warriors? 16 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 3: Climate change is having an impact on our weather patterns. 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: If the renewables are so much cheaper as the Prime 18 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 2: Minister keeps telling you, why has he broken his promise 19 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 2: of a two hunred and seventy five dollars a year 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: cut to your electricity built? 21 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 3: Here's the lowdown on nuclear power. It will add twelve 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 3: hundred dollars to your power built, it will take decades 23 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 3: to build. It will block cheaper renewable energy. 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: Hello. I'm Rebecca Jones and welcome to the Bloomberg Australia Podcast. 25 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 2: This week we're taking a look at how climate issues 26 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 2: are featuring in the federal election campaign. Here with me 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: is David Stringer, who heads up climate and ESG coverage 28 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: in Asia for Bloomberg News. He also has the thrilling 29 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: privilege of sharing a pod with me in the Melbourne 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 2: Bureau for the better part of the last decade. So 31 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 2: it's safe to suggest that this is a topic that 32 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: we have discussed at length over the years, and it 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: felt time right to let you all eavesdrop in on 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 2: something that we at least can't stop talking about. David, Hello, 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me. 36 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 4: Thanks a pleasure, pleasure to be here. 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: So Australian elections have seen divisive arguments in the past 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: two decades over climate policy, and it's often been an 39 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: area of clear difference between the main parties at a 40 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: time of pressing concerns among voters over a raft of 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: other things, from the cost of living to the affordability 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: of housing to the impact of the US China trade war. 43 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: Is climate change of factor in this campaign? 44 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 5: I think it's quite clear, having observed the campaign over 45 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 5: the past few weeks, that it's quite clearly quite different 46 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 5: to elections past. If we think about more recent elections, 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 5: the climate debate has often been incredibly noisy. This time around, 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 5: it's still there as an issue, but it's more of 49 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 5: a background hum. It's simply not getting the attention as 50 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 5: an issue that's been in the past. 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 4: That's understandable. I mean, if we think back to twenty twenty. 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 5: Two, Australia was just sort of getting over and still 53 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 5: was quite clear in people's minds that the impact that 54 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 5: those devastating twenty nineteen twenty twenty bushfires. 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 4: Had had, right yeah, really brought. 56 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 5: Home some of the potential some of the consequences of 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 5: a lack of action on climate change from the then government. 58 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,119 Speaker 5: We saw some of that feed through and certainly benefits 59 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 5: some of those Teal candidate. They campaigned on a platform 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 5: of increased climate action. They were very critical of the 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 5: then Scott Morrison government's timid approach towards reducing emissions. If 62 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 5: we think even further back twenty thirteen. You know, one 63 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 5: of the first national elections that I saw here in Australia. 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 5: Back then, debate was dominated by the carbon pricing mechanism 65 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 5: carbon taxed by another name, in effect brought Tony Abbott 66 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 5: to power. He campaigned incredibly hard on repealing that mechanism 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 5: one office and subsequently did scrap it. So we've been 68 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 5: through a period where climate has been a real driver 69 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 5: of policy and debate. It's seen party leaders ours did. 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 5: It's been a determinate elections this time not so much so. 71 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 5: I guess the question I've been asking myself is why 72 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 5: is that? 73 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: It has been quite a busy decade, hasn't it? I mean, 74 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 2: who can forget that iconic image of former Prime Minister 75 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: Scott Morrison holding the chunk of thermal coal in Parliament? 76 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 4: This is coal. Don't be fright, scare Que Treasurer knows the. 77 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: Rule of props a useful place. I think that we 78 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: should start this discussion at is what is on the 79 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 2: table from both of our two major parties going into 80 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 2: the twenty twenty five elections. David, can you step us 81 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 2: through the key differences in energy policy this time? Is 82 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: it as simple as nuclear versus renewables for example. 83 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 5: Clearly there are differences between the two major parties, but 84 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 5: I'm going to be a little bit contrarian and I'm 85 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 5: going to point to something where there is an area 86 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 5: of concer census. Both major parties are going into this 87 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 5: campaign saying Australia needs to hit net zero emissions by 88 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 5: twenty fifty. There's no debate over the end point. There's 89 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 5: no confusion over the goal. Where there are differences is 90 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 5: how do we get there how fast, at what cost, 91 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 5: you know, and at what cost to communities, not just 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 5: at what financial cost. If we look at Labour's platform, 93 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 5: you know they did bring in a raft of measures 94 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 5: in their first term. They legislated a more ambitious target 95 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 5: for emissions reductions that's forty three percent below two thousand 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 5: and five levels by twenty thirty and they'll continue to 97 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 5: support the. 98 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 4: Adoption of large scale renewables. 99 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 5: They've made a pledge for around about two billion Australian 100 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 5: dollars extra in funding for the Clean Energy Finance Corp 101 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 5: that sort of seeds renewables and green technologies. There's a 102 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 5: program to subsidize household batteries that's intended to help extend 103 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 5: that solar boom we've seen in Australia, you know, and 104 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 5: there are some policies around this ambition to bring green 105 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:09,600 Speaker 5: manufacturing jobs away from places like China and here in Australia. 106 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 5: It's pretty much steady as she goes in terms of 107 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 5: their policy this time, the Liberal Party, we haven't heard 108 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 5: a huge amount, but what we have is very interesting 109 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 5: and chiefly among it, as you mentioned, the idea of 110 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 5: bringing nuclear power to Australia. 111 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,040 Speaker 2: Yes, tell me about that. 112 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 5: The detail is something clearly that you know, we still 113 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 5: want to see more of and still needs to be 114 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 5: worked out. But you know, in simple terms, you know, 115 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 5: what the Liberal Party have suggested is having seven locations 116 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 5: across Australia that for the first time ever, would provide 117 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,559 Speaker 5: nuclear power generation. You know, that would take a number 118 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 5: of steps. Nuclear power is illegal in lots of parts 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 5: of the country. It can take a long time and 120 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 5: is incredibly expensive. How those things are reconciled we're yet 121 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 5: to fully understand. But it is a key policy and 122 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 5: a key point of difference between the two parties. 123 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: So there is a general alignment on some metrics, but 124 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: in others they do vary quite widely. I would like 125 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: to zoom in on some of the key seats that 126 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: we're looking at this election. One that comes to my 127 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: mind is the electorate of Hunter, which of course has 128 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 2: coal as its major industry. Now, David, you and I 129 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 2: both know working in the bureaus here, that we've had 130 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: other regional polls occur in recent times has been all. 131 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: There's been one in Queensland, there's also been one in WA. 132 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: What do the results in those states tell us about 133 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: the climate outlook nationally for Australia. 134 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 5: You mentioned the Hunter Valley and of course that lump 135 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 5: of coal you referenced before that was held by Scott 136 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 5: Morrison in twenty seventeen from the Hunter Valley and it 137 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 5: remains a really crucial emblem, you know, and symbol in 138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 5: this election, because how do you handle the transition of 139 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 5: those kinds of communities from traditional industries in this case coal. 140 00:07:58,560 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 4: To future industries. 141 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 5: The outlook is uncertain, so it would be really interesting 142 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 5: to see what happens in New South Wales. Of the 143 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 5: recent regional elections we've had, the one that's really interested 144 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 5: me is in Queensland, where we saw the incumbent Labor 145 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 5: government replaced by a new Liberal National Coalition government very quickly, 146 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 5: we've seen some big and significant decisions on climate and 147 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 5: energy policy. The government there has announced a sort of 148 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 5: five year energy plan that it's working on. Also, it's 149 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 5: already put a couple one hundred million dollars into the 150 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 5: maintenance and upgrades of existing coal plants. It signaled that 151 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 5: it sees a longer life for the coal fired power 152 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 5: capacity in Queensland. It expects it to continue for far 153 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 5: longer than expected. What's most interesting is if that's the 154 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 5: kind of policy that we could see, if we see 155 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 5: that result replicated national. 156 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 2: And what about WA Because I think people outside of 157 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: Australia when they're thinking about the resource industry within Australia, 158 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 2: they think of the Pilborough right the great open expansive 159 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: dessert happened in their recent regional poll. 160 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 5: I mean in Western Australia and it's a place I've 161 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 5: been very fortunate to visit a lot during my career 162 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 5: at Bloomberg and spend a lot of time luckily in 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 5: the Pilborough and there's a few dynamics going on there. Obviously, 164 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 5: we saw the Labor government return to office, but was 165 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 5: that an entirely positive step? On climate policy. I think 166 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 5: that's debatable. One of the big criticisms nationally of Antony 167 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 5: Albernesi's Labor government has been that there've been too weak 168 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 5: on implementing environmental policies. They came into the last election, 169 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 5: they campaigned in the last election with promises to overhaul 170 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 5: environmental legislation, to introduce a national environmental agency. What we've 171 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 5: seen in Western Australia is a lot of pushback against 172 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 5: any new burdens of regulation, not only from the resources industry, 173 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 5: but absolutely from companies developing new minds, new gas export plans, 174 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 5: even companies who are looking to establish new green manufacturing sites. 175 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 5: What they don't want is an additional burden of environmental legislation. 176 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 5: And what we saw in that Western Australia poll very 177 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 5: successfully lobbied the local the WA labor government to you 178 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,359 Speaker 5: not to back new restrictions. 179 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 4: So yeah, quite. 180 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 5: Interesting in both cases to see how that could inform 181 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 5: the national debate and national policy. 182 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: And certainly what happens in the Hunter electorate. You know 183 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks time now you briefly touched 184 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: on targets earlier, David, I want to pick up on 185 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 2: that a little bit. Now, Australia is regarded as you know, 186 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: somewhat of a global tess case for the energy transition, 187 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: and it does in turn attract investment and attention from 188 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: all over the place. Right, what is the actual status 189 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: of Australia's energy transition? Are we actually on track to 190 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: hit targets to reduce greenhouse gases? 191 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 5: It's one of those scenarios where you can probably make 192 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 5: an argument either way, So I think the truth is 193 00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 5: it's debatable. 194 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 4: So whremissions in the year to. 195 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 5: Last March were They were about twenty eight point two 196 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 5: percent below June two thousand and five levels. That's the 197 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 5: level that we're looking at. That's the baseline for the 198 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 5: targets that the existing government have outlined, and again that 199 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 5: is to make a forty three percent reduction by twenty thirty, 200 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 5: so still somewhere to go. The pace at which reductions 201 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 5: are being made is you know, charitably about on track. 202 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 5: I think realistically probably a little too slow. And there 203 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 5: are also other debates around what's included and what's excluded 204 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 5: when you come to countermissions. You know, if we think 205 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 5: about the policy settings, there's a there's a nonprofit globally 206 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 5: that sort of grades countries climate policies and their targets 207 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 5: climate Action Tracker, and it currently sees Australia's policy settings 208 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 5: and Australia's targets as insufficient. The one area that it 209 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 5: identifies chiefly is there's a lot of reliance on future 210 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 5: technologies that are yet to have been mercialized and developed, 211 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 5: and not a lot of policy on phasing out things 212 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 5: like coll exports, gas exports, the thing that are huge 213 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 5: drivers of export earnings. 214 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: So it's a little bit chicken and egg like, we've 215 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 2: got to have the technology to do it, and we've 216 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: got to get the technology first and agree how we're 217 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: going to do that and also finance it. I think 218 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: one thing recently that's also been quite profound is the 219 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 2: responsibility for domestic policy most certainly, but also Australia's place 220 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: within the region. We had some quite pointed comments from 221 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: the President of Palao just this month on Australia as 222 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 2: a sort of a big brother of the Pacific, wanting 223 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: it to take more of a leadership role of this 224 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: topic in the region. Let's take a quick listen. 225 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 6: We are part of the Pacific family. We need to 226 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 6: work together to solve problems and it's not a joke. 227 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 6: Climate change is a reality and it's something that we 228 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 6: face every day and we need Australia support and we're 229 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 6: ready to work with whoever is in government to attack 230 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 6: all these problems. And it's so important that the Australian 231 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 6: people understand that it's their leadership should take a leadership 232 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 6: role in the Pacific and work with us to meet 233 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 6: the challenges that we have ahead of us. 234 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: David, it is quite a tense time in the Pacific, 235 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: with China fighting for influence in the region. Is Australia 236 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: doing enough fun climate change to support its specific neighbors. 237 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 5: I think if you ask and we heard, of course 238 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 5: they're from power. If you ask a lot of Pacific nations, 239 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 5: the answer would be no. But then if we think 240 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 5: back to the time of the last election, at that moment, 241 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 5: Australia was regarded on the sort of international scene and 242 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 5: in terms of climate diplomacy as a complete outlier. Australia 243 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 5: had seeded, you know, a lot of its influence on 244 00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 5: the global stage, and you know, the government has spent 245 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 5: quite a lot of time trying to rebuild that trust 246 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 5: and trying to really reassert itself in just the global 247 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 5: process of supporting the International Approach to Climate Act. But 248 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 5: you know, the Pacific nations clearly are in a tough 249 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 5: spot and I think what we saw at the most 250 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 5: recent Global Climate talks in Azerbaijan last year was a 251 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 5: continued sense of disappointment. Developing countries came into that meeting 252 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 5: asking rich countries for you know, a commitment to direct 253 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 5: about a trillion dollars you know, in climate financing to 254 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 5: the emerging world. What they got was a commitment for 255 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 5: three hundred billion, so a lot less than expected. Australia 256 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 5: is one of those developed nations that is being asked 257 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 5: to do more and so you know, quite rightly, I 258 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 5: think the Pacific, not only Australia, but Australia because of 259 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 5: its role in the region, they are asking Australia to 260 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 5: step up. 261 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: When we come back, let's lens in and consider the 262 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 2: almighty dollar, how our investors in renewables approaching the election 263 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: and what do they want to see from Messrs Albanzi 264 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 2: and Dutton. You're listening to the Bloomberg Australia Podcast and 265 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: welcome back to the Bloomberg Australia Podcast. You're here with 266 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: me Rebecca Jones, and I'm talking all things climate with 267 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's APEC, head of ESG and green coverage, my mate 268 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 2: David Stringer. David, let's talk about money. Has the ALP 269 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 2: seen an increase in investments in renewables over the last 270 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: three years and how are those investors approaching this election? 271 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 5: Well, there's nothing I like better than pulling up charts 272 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 5: of energy transition investment, you know, and taking a look 273 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 5: at what's actually happening on the ground, where is money flowing. 274 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 5: And I think if you ask most voters, I think 275 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 5: their assumption would be that under an Albanzy government, what 276 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 5: we would have seen is a continued flow of more investment. 277 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 5: In truth, that's not the case. If we look at 278 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 5: total energy. 279 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,479 Speaker 4: Transition investment, so that's the power system. 280 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 5: That's clean transport, you know, that's clean agriculture, that actually 281 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 5: fell about five percent last year to just less than 282 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 5: twenty three billion. 283 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 4: That's even though what we. 284 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 5: Are seeing and what we did see last year is 285 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 5: a sort of rebound in investment into renewables, into clean energy. 286 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 5: We also saw a little bit more spending on electrified transport, 287 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 5: but in total it fell again. And if we think 288 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 5: the total spending that our colleagues at Bloomberg NF Research 289 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,840 Speaker 5: is they forecast that between now and twenty fifty, you know, 290 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 5: Australia is going to need to spend about two point 291 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 5: four trillion US dollars just on energy alone. How quickly 292 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 5: that investment ramps up is really crucial. 293 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about a national obsession. Well, 294 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: I mean it certainly to me, it feels like it's 295 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 2: a bit of an obsession, and that is the adoption 296 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: of solar, something that's done quite well. How is that 297 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: transfer forming the country's energy system? And is it a 298 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: trend that we think will continue in the same fashion. 299 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,959 Speaker 5: I think if you talk to experts on energy markets, 300 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,360 Speaker 5: it's hard. It's hard to overstate how transformative the adoption 301 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 5: of solar in Australia has been. 302 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 4: If we think there's been enough. 303 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 5: Solar installed on rooftops across Australia to really account for 304 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 5: one in every three house, astonishing right. And what's really 305 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 5: interesting is we're not necessarily talking about urban homes in 306 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 5: places like Melbourne, Sydney or Brisbane. To a large extent, 307 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 5: these are solar panels that have been installed in rural 308 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 5: community and in large numbers, So how's that changed the 309 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 5: energy signel quite radically. What it means is that right 310 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 5: now there's often an excess of power being generated during 311 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 5: the middle of the day the suns that it's height 312 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 5: when we're getting the most radiation on those panels, And 313 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 5: in a sense, the solar sector in Australia has kind 314 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 5: of been a victim of its own success. And in fact, 315 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 5: a colleagues that BNF their analysis tells them is that 316 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 5: for residential solace, that we think adoption peaked in twenty 317 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 5: twenty one and as being in a slow decline since 318 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 5: then because you know, rebates and incentives have come off, 319 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 5: We've seen, you know, the value of sending excess power 320 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 5: to the grid become lower and lower because basically, how 321 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 5: is worthless in the middle of the day now because 322 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 5: there is so much solar so little demand, that the 323 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 5: power itself becomes cheaper. One of the proposals we've heard 324 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 5: in this campaign from Labor is a policy to subsidize 325 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 5: household battery. They want to see more people pair up 326 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 5: their rooftop solar systems with storage batteries that allows people 327 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 5: to use it when it's needed. It sees less wastage, 328 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 5: and you know that's a potential policy that could help 329 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 5: to some degree extend the solar. 330 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: So I was right. Then solar panels are everywhere and 331 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: we are obsessed with them. It is like a really 332 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: well known manifestation of renewable energy, right. You know, you 333 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,160 Speaker 2: go to Waikia, you see the solar panels on the roof. 334 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: Go and have a look at my parents beach house. 335 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 2: It's covered in them. David, what when we're thinking about 336 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: investments in renewables, certainly extending beyond solar panels, what other 337 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 2: things are we're needing investment in, for one, And what 338 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 2: are some of the proposals that both of the parties 339 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 2: are putting forward in this campaign? 340 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 5: Well quite, I mean, so if we think about rooftop solar, 341 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 5: you know, as a sector that added about three gigawatts 342 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 5: last year, what's that. Well, that's sort of roughly equivalent 343 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 5: about three coal fired power stations. 344 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 4: That's not enough. 345 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 5: What we're really focused on is large scale renewables projects, 346 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 5: things with the sort of size and scale that can 347 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 5: actually help Australia replace those big fossil fuel sites. And 348 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 5: that requires a lot of investment, clearly, you know, and 349 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 5: as we said, it's been a very complex picture in 350 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 5: the past few years under the Albanese government. If we 351 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 5: zero in on renewable energy investment, you can really see, 352 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 5: even looking at a chart, you can see when people 353 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 5: talk about investor uncertainty and people being worried about policy change, 354 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 5: it's there in the sort of it's there in a 355 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 5: bar chart. You can see, you know, you can see 356 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,959 Speaker 5: investment yo yoing from year to year. And so what 357 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 5: we had was between sort of twenty eighteen and twenty 358 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:35,160 Speaker 5: twenty one, investment in these large scale renewable projects really created, 359 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 5: rebounded and then actually fell sharply again. Twenty twenty three, 360 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 5: rebounded last year, and a lot of that is down 361 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 5: to a policy the Labor government brought in, the Capacity 362 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 5: Investment Scheme. Now it sounds complicated, but you know, put 363 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 5: very simply kind of. 364 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 4: What it does. 365 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: It sets a flaw a revenue floor for a renewable project. 366 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 5: The project earns less than expected, the government meets some 367 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 5: of the differentrans and similarly, there's like a revenue ceiling. 368 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 5: If it does better than expected, you're going to pay 369 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 5: some of that access, right, got it. It helps investors 370 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 5: have certainty when they're thinking about these multi billion dollar investment. 371 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 5: What's interesting is the Liberal parties plan for that scheme 372 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 5: is to add natural gas. That's opposed by labor who 373 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 5: say that will deter the purpose of the scheme, which 374 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 5: is to encourage private investment in wind, in solar, in 375 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 5: renewable and its so yeah, rooftops we're seeing potentially start 376 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 5: to peter out and sortlatter. What the real focus is, 377 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 5: what's the direction of those really big large scale renewal I. 378 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: Want to ask you about another thing that Australians love 379 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 2: and that we think about all the time, and that 380 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: is driving our cars. Power isn't the only sector crucial 381 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: to Australia's decarbonization, obviously, and we have moved on ILAC 382 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: to think from Scott Morrison's famous claim that electric vehicles 383 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 2: are going to end the week. But is there a 384 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: consensus among the parties around phasing out gas guzzling cars 385 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,160 Speaker 2: and utes. What does the data tell us? 386 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:14,439 Speaker 5: You know, Australia is still seen as something of a 387 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 5: laggard on adoption of electric vehicles, which kind of surprises 388 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 5: me in a way because and you know this as well, 389 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 5: that any time we're out on a street here in Melbourne, 390 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 5: the number of Tesla's increasingly, the number of bid cars 391 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 5: you know that we see, never mind all of the 392 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 5: other myriad of electric models that are available now that 393 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 5: anecdotal evidence would seem to suggest that things are really 394 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 5: taking off. What the numbers tell us is that they're not. 395 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 5: I think they were just over around about one hundred 396 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 5: and fourteen thousand new electric vehicles sold last year compared 397 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:53,199 Speaker 5: to about one hundred thousand in twenty twenty three, so 398 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 5: an increase, but not the kinds of dramatic jumps we're seeing. 399 00:22:59,040 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 5: Another jurisdiction. 400 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 4: Part of that is policy, and what. 401 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 5: We're seeing in this election, although it hasn't featured massively, 402 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 5: what we've seen from the Liberal Party is an indication 403 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 5: that they would effectively sort of weaken the New Vehicle 404 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 5: Efficiency that's a set of policies that helps encourage adoption 405 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 5: of lower missions, cleaner, more efficient vehicle. The concern from 406 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 5: advocates of evs is that by weakening that kind of 407 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 5: policy you effectively open the Australian market up for foreign 408 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 5: automakers to dump their dirtier, less efficient cars in this march, 409 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 5: rather than foster courage. 410 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 2: Or evs to be sold so we have two major 411 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 2: parties aligned on the fact that we need to move 412 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,199 Speaker 2: to net zero, but with different ideas on how to 413 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: get there. Our position in the Pacific, as let's face it, 414 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 2: the biggest player is under even more scrutiny from our 415 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: smaller neighbors, and the way we get investment in renewables 416 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: is something both parties disagree on. The Libs and on 417 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 2: one side want to include natural gas in the investment scheme. 418 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 2: Labour says you are missing the point. So who said 419 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 2: climate wasn't on the agenda? David Stringer, thanks for your 420 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: time today. 421 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 4: Thanks great to be here back. 422 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: And thank you for listening to the Bloomberg Australia podcast. 423 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: I'm Rebecca Jones. This episode was recorded on the traditional 424 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 2: lands of the Wilwandery people of the Coula Nation. It 425 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: was produced by Paul Allen and edited by Ainsley Chandler 426 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: and Chris Burke. Don't forget to follow and review the 427 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 2: show wherever you get your podcasts, and sign up for 428 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's free daily Newssetter Australia Briefing. Go to Bloomberg dot 429 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 2: com to subscribe.