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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greace. A gorgeous young mom fast asleep,

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Speaker 1: lying in bed right.

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Speaker 2: Beside her newborn baby girl is murdered.

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Speaker 1: That's bad enough. The mode, the method of operation, the

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Speaker 1: modus opera, and di itself. Even more shocking. The young

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Speaker 1: mom stabbed in the neck.

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Speaker 2: That's not all.

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Speaker 1: Now behind bars her thirteen year old son, honor student

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Speaker 1: described as meek and mild. A young mom dead in bed,

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Speaker 1: asleep at the time she stabbed in the neck by

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Speaker 1: her thirteen year old I mean, see, Grace, this is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories and a serious XEM one eleven.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a listen to the nine on one call.

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Speaker 3: Do you call her neck?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 4: Where else did you stop there all the night cutting

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Speaker 4: her neck?

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Speaker 5: And where is your sister? She's in her grip sleeping.

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Speaker 6: How old is your sister?

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Speaker 5: She's only like a week old?

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Speaker 7: Okay?

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Speaker 3: And you did not touch her?

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Speaker 7: Correct?

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Speaker 5: No, I did not touch you. I didn't want to

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Speaker 5: touch my sister.

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Speaker 4: I need to know if your mom is is breathing.

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Speaker 5: She said, Miss I have.

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Speaker 8: The gun with me.

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Speaker 5: I was gonna shoot myself, but I didn't want to.

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Speaker 5: I didn't want to. I pulled back the slide, but

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Speaker 5: I did not see.

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Speaker 6: And more, I need to know that I think we

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Speaker 6: can help your mom, she said, I have more family members.

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Speaker 5: They can take care of my sister. I took pictures

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Speaker 5: and I told my friend about it.

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Speaker 7: Was that bad?

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Speaker 4: Do you talk old about it?

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Speaker 8: My friend?

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Speaker 5: Your friends? And you send pictures to your friends?

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Speaker 7: So what you do?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I didn't really a pictures off my phone, but

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Speaker 5: I sent him to him and I told him that

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Speaker 5: I was sorry, and then I'm okay.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let me understand this.

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Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker is joining me, senior investigative reporter with dailymail

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Speaker 1: dot Com.

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Speaker 2: Kaitlin Wait, the.

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Speaker 1: Thirteen year old honor student son kills mom, stabbing her

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Speaker 1: multiple times in the neck, and then leaves his fourteen

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Speaker 1: day old little sister alive. Takes pictures of his mom

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Speaker 1: dead in the bed and so them to a friend.

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Speaker 1: Just start at the beginning, Caitlin.

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Speaker 4: Becker, Nancy, this case is absolutely baffling. We have no

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Speaker 4: idea what the motive is. This is about eleven thirty

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Speaker 4: at night. The son, as you said, thirteen years old,

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Speaker 4: is awake. Both the baby and mom aer sleep. He

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Speaker 4: goes into bedroom, allegedly stabbed mom to death like sad

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Speaker 4: Lee's the baby untouched, and then he takes the picture

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Speaker 4: send it to someone he barely even knows. I mean,

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Speaker 4: he says the word friend in the nine to one

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Speaker 4: one call, and when the dispatcher asks for a name,

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Speaker 4: he says he doesn't know the friend's actual name. It's

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Speaker 4: just someone that he plays games with online, so not

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Speaker 4: even someone this child is close with. And then he

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Speaker 4: calls nine one one on himself. You could hear in

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Speaker 4: the call that he's clearly distraught. And from everything we

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Speaker 4: know about this kid from friends and family, he's an

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Speaker 4: honor student, well mannered, well behaved. Whyet this appeared to

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Speaker 4: come out of absolutely nowhere? And his baby sister, who

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Speaker 4: is fourteen years old, is a half sister, so his stepfather,

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Speaker 4: who was a truck driver, was out of state working

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Speaker 4: this night, so he wasn't there. And we know the gun,

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Speaker 4: as the child mentioned in that call, belonged to the stepfather.

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Speaker 1: I want to hear that second sound again, Sidney, if

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Speaker 1: you could play that one more time.

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Speaker 4: I need to know that you think we can help

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Speaker 4: your mom.

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Speaker 5: She did, I have more family members they can take

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Speaker 5: care of my sister. I took pictures and I told

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Speaker 5: my friend about it. Was that bad?

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Speaker 6: Do you talk old about it?

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Speaker 3: My friend?

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Speaker 5: Your friends?

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Speaker 3: That you send pictures to your friends?

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Speaker 4: So what you do?

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Speaker 7: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I didn't really the pictures off my phone, but I

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Speaker 5: sent him to him and I told him that I

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Speaker 5: was sorry, and then let's good bye.

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Speaker 2: I'm okay, okay, I'm joining me right now.

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Speaker 1: Is high profile lawyer Jason Ocean, New York based, but

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Speaker 1: really practices all over criminal and civil lawyer Jason Oceans.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever had one piece of.

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Speaker 1: Evidence and you have like this nine on one call

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Speaker 1: and you have to play it over and over because

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Speaker 1: each line proves so much.

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Speaker 2: Because you have this young perp who.

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Speaker 1: Has just stabbed his mom in the neck, the little

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Speaker 1: baby sister just a few days old, lying there with her,

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Speaker 1: and he says not only that he did it, but

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Speaker 1: he's speaking.

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Speaker 2: What can I learn from this nine on one call?

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Speaker 2: Just the part that I played so far? He is coherent.

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Speaker 1: He has taken pictures of.

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Speaker 2: His mother, this is his bio mom.

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Speaker 1: He's taken pictures of her lying dead with her neck stabbed,

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Speaker 1: and he has sent them to the friend and he

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Speaker 1: says this one thing.

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Speaker 2: This is very important. It's critical. Was that bad? People

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Speaker 2: only say was that bad when they know it's bad?

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Speaker 2: Was that wrong? Yeah? It was wrong, Nancy.

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Speaker 3: He's barely barely thirteen, just twelve, a little bit ago.

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Speaker 2: So is that what I asked you?

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Speaker 3: No, you did not ask Okay, you also called him.

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Speaker 2: A purple because he murdered his mother.

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Speaker 3: Right, that's clearly he murdered his mother. There's no question there.

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Speaker 2: And would you disagree that he is not the perpetrator.

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Speaker 3: Oh, he is the perpetrator.

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Speaker 2: So he is in fact the purp, Yes.

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Speaker 3: Nancy, as we break it down, he is the purp.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: Back to the original question in court, I would say

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Speaker 1: something like, as I looked at you glaringly, your honor,

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Speaker 1: may I refresh the witness's recollection? May I redirect the

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Speaker 1: witness as his answers are unresponsive? And I will ask

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Speaker 1: you again, have you ever had a piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: that the more you looked at it, the more you

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Speaker 1: learned just one sentence, one piece of evidence, that clip

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Speaker 1: from that nine to one, one callback, one part of it.

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Speaker 3: Well, as a prosecutor, Nancy, you're looking at critically and

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Speaker 3: you see everything inside your case right there to prove it.

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Speaker 3: I understand where you're coming from. I do not disagree

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Speaker 3: with you. You're going to play that over and over

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Speaker 3: in your head. You're going to play it over and over.

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Speaker 3: For the jury, You're going to play it over and

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Speaker 3: over again. It's quite just positive. There's not much to it.

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Speaker 3: It's a slam duck for me as a defense attorney.

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Speaker 3: Goes beyond to mental health. Uh you know the conference?

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Speaker 3: Is that wrong? That's not a purpose? Is that wrong?

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Speaker 3: That's a that's a little boy, that's a troubled despite

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Speaker 3: what the outside looked at. Something snapped, perhaps the birth

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Speaker 3: of the new child, something happened that made him snap.

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Speaker 1: Well, frankly, unless it's a legal defense, I mean I

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Speaker 1: see things in uh everything, As you know, Jason, we're

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Speaker 1: longtime colleagues and friends.

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Speaker 2: Everything to me. Now, once you go through law.

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Speaker 1: School and once you try cases for a living, you

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Speaker 1: begin to see the world in a different way. Is

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Speaker 1: it probative, does it prove something? Is it admissible? If

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Speaker 1: it's not admissible, I don't want to.

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Speaker 2: Hear about it.

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Speaker 1: I only want to know what I can put in

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Speaker 1: front of a jury and how I can interpret that,

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Speaker 1: and what is it true?

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Speaker 2: Is it real? Did this happen to? I have the

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Speaker 2: right person?

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Speaker 1: Why I got to leave that up to a string

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Speaker 1: like doctor James Carborino joining US, who specializes in what

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Speaker 1: causes violence in children, Professor's Psychology Emeritus, Cornell and Loyola

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Speaker 1: University of Chicago.

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Speaker 2: Wow, author of Listening to Killers.

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Speaker 1: Lessons learned from twenty years as a psychological expert witness

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Speaker 1: in murder cases. Okay, I'm reading that, doctor James Garbarino.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Jason otions is wrong. He's right,

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Speaker 1: He's right. Does that mean that goes into my analysis

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Speaker 1: of how I'm going to prove the case? I care

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Speaker 1: about one thing. Am I getting a true verdict? Am

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Speaker 1: I telling the jury the truth? Am I telling the.

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Speaker 2: Jury the whole truth? And us what I give the

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Speaker 2: jury advance the truth? So all care about who did this? Where? When?

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Speaker 2: Is it in my jurisdiction?

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Speaker 1: And is there a legitimate defense such as self defense, insanity, accident?

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Speaker 1: But doctor James Garbarino, I want you to hear our

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Speaker 1: cut three are friends at crime online dot Com.

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Speaker 9: Derek Rosa is not your typical thirteen year old boy.

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Speaker 9: He's on the honor roll in eighth grade. Neighbors say

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Speaker 9: he is exceedingly nice and friendly. He is the model

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Speaker 9: son to his mother and respectful to his stepfather. He

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Speaker 9: has been a big help to his thirty nine year

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Speaker 9: old mother, Irena Garcia. She just gave birth to a

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Speaker 9: baby girl a couple of weeks ago. Derek rose Uh

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Speaker 9: is a good boy.

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Speaker 2: He is a good boy. Doctor Garmrino helped me.

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Speaker 8: You know, a lot of the the focus of the

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Speaker 8: criminal justice system is always, as you say, primarily what

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Speaker 8: did they do? Who did it? You know, the kind

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Speaker 8: of work that I've done for the last thirty years

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Speaker 8: as a psychological expert witness really tries to get at

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Speaker 8: who they are. I've worked on a number of kids

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Speaker 8: who killed their parents over the years. You know, a

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Speaker 8: lot of the kids who kill their parents it's called

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Speaker 8: reactive parasites and response to abuse. But I have worked

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Speaker 8: on cases like this that are mysterious at the outset

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Speaker 8: because you know, where does this come from? What does

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Speaker 8: it mean? How do we make sense of it? You know,

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Speaker 8: there are a number of possibilities. It's too early to know.

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Speaker 8: You know, there's a case in Oregon years ago where

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Speaker 8: a boy killed his parents and it turned out he

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Speaker 8: was slipping into schizophrenia, was hearing voices. And you know,

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Speaker 8: the the thing about hearing voices in America is a

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Speaker 8: fascinating study that finds that seventy percent of the voices

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Speaker 8: that schizophrenics here in America tell them to commit acts

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Speaker 8: of violence against themselves of others, seventy percent. In India,

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Speaker 8: it's twenty percent. In Ghana and Africa it's ten percent. So,

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Speaker 8: you know, we need to know what was his inner life, like,

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Speaker 8: that's certainly one possibility. I mean, there are other possibilities

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Speaker 8: too that eventually may make sense of this, But it

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Speaker 8: certainly doesn't sound like this is. You know, there's another

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Speaker 8: case recently where boy killed his mother because she wouldn't

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Speaker 8: buy him some virtual reality headphones and he was only

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Speaker 8: you know, he was even younger than this boy nine.

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Speaker 8: I'm a lady was nine, you know, So we have

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Speaker 8: to try to understand who this is. This doesn't sound

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Speaker 8: like it's the culmination of an increasingly aggressive, any social

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Speaker 8: kid who's entitled and maybe narcissistic, maybe even on the

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Speaker 8: road becoming a psychopath. It doesn't sound like that. It

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Speaker 8: sounds like some very bizarre thing going on in his

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Speaker 8: head that was kept kept from the adults around him.

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Speaker 8: You know that boy in Oregon years ago, he told

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Speaker 8: no one that he was hearing voices. I worked on

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Speaker 8: another case of a thirteen year old actually in Florida,

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Speaker 8: who also killed his mother. No history of delinquency or

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Speaker 8: any social behavior. But the more we got to know,

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Speaker 8: the more we saw there was something going on in

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Speaker 8: his head that again was telling him to do this

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Speaker 8: in a way that for a young kid is it

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Speaker 8: can be very powerful. You know, the part of the

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Speaker 8: brain that controls how intense kids feel things, how intense

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Speaker 8: people feel things, nucleus at Cumba's it peaks at age fifteen,

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Speaker 8: fourteen fifteen, so he's right in the period when everything

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Speaker 8: feels more intense. You know the role of this internet

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Speaker 8: friend and connection, I mean that's contaminating in another way.

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Speaker 8: So we're just at the beginning of making sense of this.

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Speaker 8: But I think eventually we will find a way to

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Speaker 8: make sense of that.

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Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace, I keep going over and

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Speaker 1: over the evidence, like I'm trying to solve a Rubik's cube.

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Speaker 2: Joining me.

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Speaker 1: A longtime friend and colleague, Master Sergeant Ron Livingston with

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Speaker 1: the Florida highway patrol, thirty plus years in law enforcement. Ron,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to hour cut

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Speaker 1: twelve more than nine on one call. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I keep playing that is because it's very hard for

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Speaker 1: me to look at this kid.

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Speaker 2: And he is a kid, as.

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Speaker 1: Jason Ocean's accurately pointed out, and his whole past behavior

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Speaker 1: is completely completely opposite of that one act of murder.

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Speaker 1: But listen to this nine on one call, Ron Livingston,

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Speaker 1: I need to know if your.

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Speaker 2: Mom is breathing.

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Speaker 5: Right all over the floor.

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Speaker 2: Okay, why did you.

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Speaker 6: Kill your mom?

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Speaker 2: I need to know.

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Speaker 6: Do you think we can help your mom?

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Speaker 2: She could bring.

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Speaker 5: Over here where I live.

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Speaker 6: What did you addreve Yes.

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Speaker 5: I took pictures and I told my friends about it

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Speaker 5: with that bag.

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Speaker 6: You talk old about it my friend, your friends, and

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Speaker 6: you send pictures to your friends the what you did? Yeah,

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Speaker 6: do not open until I tell you to open the door,

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Speaker 6: and to make sure that you have nothing but yoursel phone.

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Speaker 2: In your hands.

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Speaker 5: They're gonna tell me, no, they're not gonna kill you.

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Speaker 2: We're here to help you.

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Speaker 6: Okay, We're gonna help your family.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay to masters Sergeant Ron Livingston, Ron, if this

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Speaker 1: were an adult, I'm would be arguing right now. How

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Speaker 1: clearly he knows exactly what's going on. He has not

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Speaker 1: had a psychotic break. He is not insane. He knows

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Speaker 1: cops are coming, and he says, are they gonna kill me?

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Speaker 1: She says, do you have anything in your hands? He goes,

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Speaker 1: I've got a cell phone. Do you have anything else? No,

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Speaker 1: are they gonna kill me? He knows exactly what's gonna happen.

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Speaker 1: If cops come to the scene and he's got a

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Speaker 1: gun in his hands, they're.

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Speaker 2: Gonna kill him.

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Speaker 1: So there's no way he's gonna be able to argue

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Speaker 1: any kind of insanity. Ron Livingston, have you ever seen

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Speaker 1: anything like this or even closely akin to this?

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Speaker 7: You know, we're seeing this over and over and you know,

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Speaker 7: with with social media, with you know, with kids, they're

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Speaker 7: so focused on you know, social media, and you know

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Speaker 7: they watch all the bad things that that happen out here,

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Speaker 7: and so you know, the media has portrayed law enforcement,

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Speaker 7: you know, to be bad, which you know we're not.

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Speaker 7: We're there to help you, We're there to help everybody.

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Speaker 7: And so I think that's been the biggest you know,

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Speaker 7: as far as the portraying media and stuff as far

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Speaker 7: as law enforcement, so I would assume that's where he's

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Speaker 7: getting this. The law enforcement's going to kill me and

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Speaker 7: we're not. We're there to help preserve the scene to

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Speaker 7: start the investigation. Obviously we have to take make sure

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Speaker 7: the threat is under control in law enforcement. There is

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Speaker 7: no threat to law enforcement once.

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Speaker 2: They arrived to Dutor Tim Gallagher joining me.

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Speaker 1: We're now a medical examiner of the State of Florida,

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Speaker 1: lecturer University of Florida Medical School in the Forensic Medicine Division,

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Speaker 1: Founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. Doctor Gallagher,

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Speaker 1: this happened in your jurisdiction. This isn't Highaliah. Could you

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Speaker 1: explain to me. Is there any way that this new

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Speaker 1: mother his mother. She's got a little baby girl fourteen

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Speaker 1: days old, and she's sleeping in the room with the baby.

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Speaker 1: Is there any way that the mother didn't feel what

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Speaker 1: happened to her. She was asleep when she was attacked.

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Speaker 1: I don't see away, but is there a way?

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Speaker 10: Most likely not, you know, unless she was asleep under

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Speaker 10: the influence of some substance. But when people get stabbed

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Speaker 10: and they are sober, they feel every second of it.

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Speaker 10: You know, you don't die from the stabbing, you actually

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Speaker 10: die from bleeding to death, so that takes quite a while,

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Speaker 10: and in that time you were very, very aware of

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Speaker 10: what's happening, to the pain, your surroundings, who is doing

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Speaker 10: it to you, And that can go on for several

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Speaker 10: minutes before you finally sanguinate.

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Speaker 3: Or bleed to death.

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Speaker 4: So yes, if she was.

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Speaker 10: Not on the influence of anything that was putting her asleep,

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Speaker 10: she felt every second of it, knew what was happening,

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Speaker 10: and felt her life slipping away from her.

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Speaker 2: Nancy, Can I just is that Caitlin?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just wanted to jump in out.

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Speaker 2: A little place to bring.

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Speaker 4: Detail to that that he There were some local reports

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Speaker 4: that while we know that she was stabbed in the bed,

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Speaker 4: her body was discovered on the floor. So I don't

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Speaker 4: know if she had rolled off the bed, or had

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Speaker 4: tried to climb out of the bed, or if they're

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Speaker 4: going to be defensive wounds, but the body was found

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Speaker 4: on the floor, so that indicates to me that she

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Speaker 4: moved in some way, shape or form before ultimately exguinating, And.

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Speaker 1: That adds to what that supports what you're saying, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher that she knew very well what was happening

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Speaker 1: and was trying to either get away or protect her baby.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what she was doing, but she did

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Speaker 1: get out of bed. What do you make of that,

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Speaker 1: doctor Gallagher?

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Speaker 10: Well, if you think about the emotional state that she

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Speaker 10: was in, you know, she just had this baby, so

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Speaker 10: she's in the mother bear mode. You know, she really

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Speaker 10: wants to protect the baby. Yet she's being attacked by

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Speaker 10: her son, who she's also there to protect because he's

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Speaker 10: really not of age to do that for himself. You know,

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Speaker 10: So she was probably torn between those two circumstances in

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Speaker 10: a very unusual and very critical time of her life

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Speaker 10: there and just I could see the confusion. I could see,

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Speaker 10: you know why she was thinking, why is this happening

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Speaker 10: to me? You know what is going on? And just

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Speaker 10: a very very confusing point. And I'd like to know

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Speaker 10: if she did have any defensive wounds on her But

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Speaker 10: just a crazy, crazy situation, just very very unusual. You've

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Speaker 10: really found a good case here, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: We know that she was lying on the floor next

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Speaker 1: to the baby's crib. I wonder if she was trying

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Speaker 1: to make her way to the baby.

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Speaker 3: I would hope.

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Speaker 10: So yeah, I would certainly hope.

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Speaker 1: So oh gosh, guys, we are talking about a thirteen

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Speaker 1: year old boy, dearic Rosa, who was now charged with

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Speaker 1: first degree murder in the stabbing death of his own

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Speaker 1: mother lying right next to her, his fourteen day old

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Speaker 1: little sister, Caitlin Becker joining US dailymail dot Com. Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: how many times was the mother stamped?

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Speaker 4: I don't know the exact number, Nancy, but a duo

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Speaker 4: that it was multiple times. It was a very bloody

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Speaker 4: scene and it was specifically in that sort of neck

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Speaker 4: and upper region.

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Speaker 1: To Jason oshan is joining US, high profile lawyer out

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Speaker 1: of New York and New Jersey. You know he is

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Speaker 1: going to be charged as an adult. There's really no choice.

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Speaker 1: What do you make of it?

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Speaker 3: No disagreement, Nancy. I mean, you know, when you have

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Speaker 3: the direct evidence, as you do as a prosecutor here,

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Speaker 3: you're pretty limited in your defense. I think the approach,

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Speaker 3: Nancy is, you know, some sort of a free and

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Speaker 3: hopefully you're getting him, you know, mental health assistance because

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Speaker 3: as the doctor is going to get something snapped.

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Speaker 1: You do know, Jason Oshins, we have discussed many many

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Speaker 1: times snapped is not a defense. There's no such thing

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Speaker 1: as I snapped, or everybody in the full accounty, Gail,

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Speaker 1: what say I snapped and that I'll all be walking.

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Speaker 2: Out right now.

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Speaker 3: It may be snapping and saying it at the same

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Speaker 3: time out, but for Layman's terms, we understand what that is.

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Speaker 3: Jury would understand that it's not a defense. It's just

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Speaker 3: discovering the underneath motive, which background doesn't consistently doesn't in

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Speaker 3: any way you know, fit the violence of the act.

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Speaker 3: It just doesn't, Nancy, you and I both know that.

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Speaker 3: And so in this case, as you're dealing with an

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Speaker 3: almost a barely thirteen year old just a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks ago, as twelve, you're constrained in thinking that this

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Speaker 3: young man should spend the rest of his life in prison.

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Speaker 3: It's not death penalty eligible, Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: I'm not thinking anything right now.

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Speaker 1: The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice for

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Speaker 1: the state, and the state represents the victim. The crime

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Speaker 1: victim I'm victim in this case is Arena Garcia, just

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Speaker 1: thirty nine years old when she was brutally murdered, stabbed

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Speaker 1: multiple times as she lying next to her fourteen day

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Speaker 1: old baby.

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Speaker 2: Girl. That's the interest that I have.

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Speaker 1: I also care about what if anything went wrong with

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Speaker 1: this young boy, he is going to be charged as

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Speaker 1: an adult as he should be. And yes, I have

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Speaker 1: tried a thirteen year old for murder. In that case,

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Speaker 1: the thirteen year old six foot three or four broke

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Speaker 1: into a pawn shop, well crashed into a pawn shop,

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Speaker 1: murdered one left, another in a wheelchair, and a third shot,

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Speaker 1: I believe, with a colostomy bag over a handful of

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Speaker 1: dope ropes, which is dick gold chains. Is this doctor Garbarino,

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Speaker 1: please jump in, Doctor Garbarino.

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Speaker 8: Thank you. You know, I think, having worked on a

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Speaker 8: number of these juvenile cases over the year, in quite

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Speaker 8: a number, I always think that we need to figure

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Speaker 8: out which group they're in to start with. There is

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Speaker 8: a group even at thirteen, as you point out, who

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Speaker 8: are so damaged that they know it's going to take

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Speaker 8: at least twenty years for them to recover. They need

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Speaker 8: to get to age twenty five, and we can presume

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Speaker 8: a mature brain, and then they need at least ten

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Speaker 8: years to use that mature brain to transform themselves and

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Speaker 8: rehabilitate and educate and all the rest of that and

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Speaker 8: the evidence is actually pretty good that they can get better,

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Speaker 8: most of them do. That's really what's come out of

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Speaker 8: the Milli versus Alabama decision about not sending juveniles to

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Speaker 8: life without parole. That's one group.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you can no longer send a juvenile to life

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Speaker 1: without parole, just like you cannot get a sentence of

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Speaker 1: death penalty on a juvenile right.

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Speaker 8: The second group are kids who have basically been intact

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Speaker 8: and childhood, but they have a kind of adolescent crisis.

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Speaker 8: It's often it's the onset of schizophrenia, it's a drug

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Speaker 8: related thing, it's a you know, influence of negative peers,

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Speaker 8: a variety of things. The good news about them is

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Speaker 8: most of them actually could be dealt with as a juvenile,

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Speaker 8: setting aside the severity of the crime, which may preclude

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Speaker 8: that for political and moral and legal issues. But they

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Speaker 8: typically you know, a guy once said to me in prison,

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Speaker 8: how can I get how can I be rehabilitated if

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Speaker 8: I was never habilitated in the first place, And that's

444
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 8: an important point. It sounds like this boy was abilitated,

445
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 8: so this is a crisis that we need to understand

446
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,920
Speaker 8: what's brought on the crisis. And he could be restored.

447
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 8: There is a third group. It's a much smaller group.

448
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 8: Who are you know, as a Supreme Court said, irreparably corrupt.

449
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 8: These are the kids who are simply on their way

450
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 8: to becoming full blown psychopaths. And you know, I've worked

451
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 8: enough cases too where it's not a matter of them

452
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 8: getting better. It's not so much a matter of a crisis.

453
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 8: It's a matter of something so profoundly wrong with them

454
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 8: that it would take a miracle to you know, to

455
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 8: transform that. So that's why I say we need to

456
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 8: understand who this is. I understand as a prosecutor, and

457
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 8: I sit across from a lot of prosecutors. You know,

458
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 8: one prosecutor in Florida said to me, I lived with

459
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 8: the stench of death, and I understand that mentality. But

460
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 8: you know, the interest of the state here should also

461
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 8: be taking care of this boy.

462
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 1: Well I've got a question for you, doctor Garbarina. Who

463
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: could the birth of the little.

464
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 2: Baby sister have been some sort of a triggering event

465
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 2: for him?

466
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,480
Speaker 8: Well, certainly could have been. You know, it seems to

467
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,360
Speaker 8: have happened in such close time proximity. You know, as

468
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,120
Speaker 8: I understand that he was the only child before. Who

469
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 8: knows what this meant to him? You know, it's it's

470
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 8: the result of a stepfather in pregnant hitting his mother.

471
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 8: Who knows what that meant to him? Because from a

472
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,160
Speaker 8: child's point of view, regardless of how good the relationship

473
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 8: is with the stepfather, he is an intruder in a sense.

474
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 8: So you know, we have to understand what this meant

475
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 8: to him, because you know, there, I think there's no

476
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 8: such thing as senseless act of violence. It always makes sense,

477
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 8: you know, if we get inside the head of the

478
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 8: perpetrator enough, it makes sense. We may not accept it,

479
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 8: we may not appreciate it, but we have to get there.

480
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 8: And I think, you know, I've had some good experiences

481
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 8: even in Florida, where prosecutors have understood this, and so

482
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 8: they they're willing to take a plea that involves taking

483
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 8: care of this troubled boy.

484
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: Well, I want you to hear something else. Dottor Garborno

485
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: and everyone on the panel. Listen to the boys behavior. Afterwards,

486
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: take a listen to hour cut seven from our friends

487
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: at crime online dot Com.

488
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 9: Neighbors in Hi Leah, Florida, shot footage as police showed

489
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 9: up to arrest a killer. The scene filmed by a

490
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 9: neighbor and post it online. Is not a crazed maniac.

491
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 9: This murderer is a thirteen year old honor student. The

492
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 9: boy is standing timidly on the balcony of his apartment

493
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 9: as he is on the phone with nine to one one.

494
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 9: The boy called to confess, and now the nine one

495
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 9: one operator is giving him instructions. The boy follows the instructions,

496
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 9: putting his hands up in the air and obeying the

497
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 9: police directly in front of him. When the police finally

498
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 9: get close enough, they take Derek Rosa to the ground hard.

499
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 9: He's put in handcuffs and taken away to.

500
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker joining us seeing investigative reporter dailymail dot com.

501
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: He clearly is following instructions. He understands what's happening. He

502
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: is not out of his mind. He's not having a

503
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: psychotic break. All that is actually going to work against

504
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: him at trial because he clearly knows what's going on

505
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: and he knows what he did was wrong.

506
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 4: Caitlin, you hear that sadness and that remorse in the call.

507
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 4: You can hear him getting choked up and being overwhelmed

508
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 4: by his alleged actions. I do think that will work

509
00:27:57,880 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 4: against him at trial. But Nancy on the flip stop.

510
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 4: At one point, the dispatcher asks him his address. He

511
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 4: doesn't know his address. I feel like a defense attorney's

512
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: going to say this thirteen year old boy who is

513
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 4: barely even thirteen, who didn't even know where he lived,

514
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 4: didn't understand the magnitude of his actions. Maybe until after

515
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: it was it was done.

516
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 3: I don't know.

517
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 4: I think that a jury might look at the nine

518
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 4: one one call and hear this broken little boy calling

519
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 4: and you know, talking to the dispatcher and responding to

520
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 4: her no miss, yes, miss, and being polite and sort

521
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 4: of trying to rectify that version of the child who's

522
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 4: on the phone. With the brutality of the murder. I

523
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 4: think it's going to be.

524
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,239
Speaker 1: Tough to Jason Otionans, a veteran child lawyer, and I'm

525
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: going to quote verbade him the law. One may immediately

526
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: regret the date, but that regret does not negate intent

527
00:28:53,720 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: at the time of the act. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,

528
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: there's premeditation here. He has to creep into the mother's

529
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: room while she lay sleeping. He waits until the moment

530
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: she is asleep in the dark of the night. He

531
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: goes in with a knife. He goes into the mother's

532
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 1: bedroom with a knife. There are multiple stabs. Premeditation can

533
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: be formed in the twinkling of a moment, so between

534
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: each stab is another period in which premeditation can be formed.

535
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: That's what premeditation means. Now, it may not mean that

536
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: to a lay person on the street, but the jury,

537
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,959
Speaker 1: if there is one, will be instructed that. That is

538
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: what premeditation means. It's not a long drawn out scheme

539
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: such as someone poisoning the victim over a period of

540
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: months or even years. It can be formed in an instant,

541
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: So he has premeditation. He knows what he is doing

542
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: is wrong. What about that?

543
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 3: And NaN's I'm not going to disagree with you in

544
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: any of your approach and your prosecutorial position. You've explained it, well,

545
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: you've articulated it. You're going to go ahead. The only

546
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: thing I would say, relative to being counsel for the defendings,

547
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 3: don't over prosecute because he's notwithstanding all of your case,

548
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 3: he's still sympathetic at barely thirty.

549
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: Yes he is, he is too.

550
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: Master's Argeant Ron Livingston joining us out of this jurisdiction

551
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: in Florida. Are juvenals this age housed in an adult

552
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: jail facility, No.

553
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 7: Ma'am, they will be housed in a juvenile detention facility

554
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 7: in the state of Florida. We're not allowed. Juveniles are

555
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 7: not allowed to be in a jail with adults longer

556
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 7: than six hours. So process, what's their process? They're taken

557
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 7: out in turns over the Department of Juvenile Justice in.

558
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: The last hours.

559
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: This young man, thirteen year old Derreck Rosa, has pled

560
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: not guilty in a court of law. And you may

561
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 1: be very surprised at what happens in court. Taking us

562
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: our cut a, it's.

563
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 8: Very unfortunate that this tragedy occurred. But this child is

564
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 8: very humble, very peaceful.

565
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: Now you are hearing his father, his biological father, mister Rossa,

566
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: in court. He describes his son as humble and peaceful

567
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 1: and more.

568
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 2: Take us now, our cut be is in brother.

569
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 8: It's hard for us to explain how this occurred.

570
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 6: You know, it's it's difficult, but I guess what we're

571
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 6: asking for is to another opportunity. It's second chance to

572
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 6: help him grow and become a choice of grow mad,

573
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 6: to to put this behind him and say we have

574
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 6: your We're here to support you.

575
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 1: Caitlin Becker are joining us on a dailymail dot com.

576
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 1: What happened in court or it.

577
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 4: Was really emotional. Not only was it the young boy's

578
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 4: father was also his grandmother. They spent some twenty letters

579
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 4: of support trying to.

580
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: Get him a little bit of.

581
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 4: Leniency, and in court when the charges were upgraded to

582
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 4: first degree murder and he was charged as an adult,

583
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 4: he was taken out of the juvenile facility and remanded

584
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 4: into an adult facility. I don't know how long he

585
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 4: stayed there or if he's still there, but his attorney

586
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 4: in court, attorney Kristin Renoso, had plans to request what's

587
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 4: called in Arthur hearing to try to secure him bond,

588
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 4: even though it's not a bond offul offense. And she

589
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 4: also requested in court that her client be returned to

590
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 4: juvenile custody, but that is something the judge said that

591
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 4: they would have to determine at a later date and

592
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 4: they were going to review all of that. So I

593
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 4: do know he was taken into an adult facility. I

594
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 4: don't know how long he would have remained, but he's

595
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 4: going to stay in custody until his next hearing, which

596
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 4: at this point isn't until February.

597
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: Back to a Master's Sergeant Ron Livingston, it's confusing when

598
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 1: you hear the verbiage that we just heard from Caitlin Becker,

599
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: and everything she said is correct. The judge has to

600
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: determine the exact age of the defendant and that has

601
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 1: to be weighed against the charges. But this juvenile will

602
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: be housed separately from adults. He will not be in

603
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: general population, he will not have an adult roommate. None

604
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: of that's happening. He is being taken to an adult

605
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: facility until it's sorted out where he should be because

606
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: he's charged with murder one. But in the state of

607
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: Florida and across the country, juveniles are not put in

608
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: sales or amongst grown men.

609
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 2: That is not happening. Please confirm that, because ma'am.

610
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 7: They cannot be an eyesight, nor can they speak or

611
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 7: talk to any any adults. You know, typically, and in

612
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 7: this case might be a little different, I mean, the

613
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 7: judge could actually overrule it. But typically the law en

614
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 7: Florida is is that juvenile does not stay in the

615
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 7: in in an adult jail for longer than a process

616
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 7: and then they're removed. Now Miami day, they might have

617
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 7: a you know, a section that's completely segregated from the

618
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 7: adults to where they put him and house him, to

619
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 7: where he is not in view contact, can't speak to

620
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 7: any adults. That's that's very strictly prohibited.

621
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: Yes, guys, I want you to also hear more of

622
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,320
Speaker 1: this young man's father, mister Rossa in court.

623
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 5: Listen, Derek's mother recently had a child and she was

624
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 5: overwhelmed with a lot of the work.

625
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 6: Is not taking away anything from what occurred.

626
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 8: And I wish he could bring, you know to guess

627
00:34:58,680 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 8: before that occurred.

628
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: To doctor Tim Gallagher, medical examiner for the State of

629
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: Florida and the founder of the International Forensic Medicine Death

630
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 1: Investigation Conference, Doctor Gallagher, I want to go through we

631
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: keep talking about the boy. What happened to the boy?

632
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 1: The boys an honor student, He had always been timid,

633
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: he was great son, very respectful, on and on and on.

634
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the mother. The new mother.

635
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: Tell me what she went through as her life ebbed

636
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,919
Speaker 1: away from her and she tried valiantly to get over

637
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: to the crib where her fourteen day old daughter.

638
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 10: Was sleeping well, Nancy, I mean, she's in a very

639
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 10: very difficult position. As we discussed before, she is in

640
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 10: fight or flight mode. Now she doesn't know whether to

641
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 10: run and save her life or to run back to

642
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 10: her crib and protect her newborn baby. So she is

643
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 10: going to be in the present of the sun with

644
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 10: the knife, you.

645
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: Know, for as long as it takes.

646
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 10: She's probably already received a fatal wound. She is bleeding,

647
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 10: She's actively bleeding to death at this point, and she

648
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 10: has a decision to make, you know, do I sacrifice

649
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 10: my life for the safety of my newborn do I

650
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 10: run and try to save myself, you know, by going

651
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,240
Speaker 10: out the door and exiting the situation. All this time,

652
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 10: she is getting weaker, She is getting weaker, and the

653
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 10: ability for her to reason is becoming less as the

654
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 10: as less amount of blood can reach her brain and

655
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 10: affect her reasoning center. So she is in a very

656
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 10: difficult position in it. And it looked like ultimately she

657
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 10: chose to protect her baby because that's approximately where she

658
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 10: was found when she was deceased.

659
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 3: So very very difficult situation.

660
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: Donnan Gallagher, And I've done this myself in the case

661
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: of my fiance being murdered.

662
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: I like it to myself.

663
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: Well, he didn't feel it, he didn't suffer because he

664
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: was shot so many times in the face and the neck,

665
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: in the head. But you know what, doctor Gallagher, that's

666
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: probably not true because people that have survived gunshot wounds,

667
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: some of them have said I didn't even realize I

668
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: was hit. Others say how much it hurt. Stab wounds

669
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: have got to be just incredibly painful. I think she

670
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: really suffered. And she got out of the bed and

671
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: tried to get to the baby's crib. She knew she

672
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,240
Speaker 1: was bleeding, she knew she had been stabbed. She probably

673
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 1: knew who had stabbed her as she was dying. I

674
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: have no doubt in my mind she suffered.

675
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 10: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. People who get shot in the

676
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 10: bed don't even wake up, you know, they are found

677
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 10: exactly where they were sleeping. But people who get stabbed

678
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 10: wake up. They feel the pain, and they wake up

679
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 10: and they tried to defend themselves. And this is the

680
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 10: case here, and that's the result of knowing what's going on,

681
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 10: of feeling the pain. Yes, they were suffering.

682
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, Nancy, this is Jim Garbarino again. You know,

683
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 8: I think we haven't talked about, you know, obviously a

684
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 8: lot of things here. One being you know, was committing

685
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,480
Speaker 8: this crime may have put him in a what's called

686
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 8: a dissociate of a state that just in disconnected, and

687
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,919
Speaker 8: that may be reflected in his call. But the other

688
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 8: thing is he talks about having a gun and not

689
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 8: using it on himself, which suggests that he chose the

690
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 8: knife over the gun because he had access to both,

691
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 8: and that I think may end up being significant and

692
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 8: understanding the crime, because as you well know, stabbing is

693
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 8: a very different internal process often than shooting. And it

694
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 8: really again suggests to me that there's something we don't

695
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 8: know yet that's really deep and big and dark inside

696
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 8: him that led to this particular form of attack. And

697
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 8: again I think we just got to understand this because

698
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 8: it's not like it's not like a lot of other

699
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 8: murders that juvenile has committed. And I just hope the

700
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 8: system will be able to find a way to understand

701
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,959
Speaker 8: that make sense of it. And I think, as I said,

702
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 8: this gun versus knife issue may be a clue to

703
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 8: what was going on.

704
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: We wait as just as some points goodbye for that