Speaker 1: Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
Speaker 2: We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the
Speaker 2: vicious felonies.
Speaker 3: These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Dune Done.
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to That's Messed Up and SVU podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm your host Kara Klank.
Speaker 2: And I'm Liza Traeger and we love SVU. We hate criminals,
Speaker 2: but we talk about them. And then we talked to celebs,
Speaker 2: which we love.
Speaker 1: We love celebs, but first we love the chart.
Speaker 3: We chant out weeds.
Speaker 1: How we plug the tour. I'm gonna just get let
Speaker 1: me get it out of the way up top. We
Speaker 1: As of this episode's release, we will have just wrapped
Speaker 1: up our full Southern leg and thank you to everyone
Speaker 1: who came out to those shows. We will be back
Speaker 1: out in November. Guys, we're going to you Midwest. We
Speaker 1: are coming back to Chicago. We are going to be
Speaker 1: at Zany's in Rosemont on November thirteenth.
Speaker 3: Come out and see us in the Burbs. It's a nice,
Speaker 3: big venue, it's huge.
Speaker 1: I love Zane's in downtown Chicago as well, But you
Speaker 1: might not be able to get a ticket because that
Speaker 1: one is selling out pretty quick, and so come out
Speaker 1: to Rosma and see us. I don't believe there is
Speaker 1: an Alan Jackson's I love this bar anymore?
Speaker 3: But is that what it was called? But I know
Speaker 3: it's Toby Keith.
Speaker 1: I think, oh, Toby Keith's I love this bar. But
Speaker 1: you can still find some good stuff out there. We
Speaker 1: will be then bopping over to Indianapolis on the fifteenth
Speaker 1: of November, Columbus on the sixteenth, Cleveland on the seventeenth,
Speaker 1: Detroit on the eighteenth, and then Madison, Wisconsin on the twentieth. Guys,
Speaker 1: please get your tickets, come see us. So many people
Speaker 1: are writing us saying I didn't get tickets for the
Speaker 1: DC show.
Speaker 3: I waited.
Speaker 1: Don't wait because some of these shows sell out, and
Speaker 1: we really want to see all of you. And you know,
Speaker 1: have you see our Life Live show, which is, in
Speaker 1: my opinion, really fucking fun. And that's it, Lisa, what's
Speaker 1: going on? I want to tell you a story when
Speaker 1: you get a chance to tell me a story, Well,
Speaker 1: just something really funny I thought happened to me in Boston.
Speaker 1: So I went to Boston for a wedding this past
Speaker 1: weekend and we're in the time machine. So I know
Speaker 1: some of you have like that happened weeks ago. It did,
Speaker 1: and I'm walking It's the day before the wedding, so
Speaker 1: I'm like with my friend Jackie. We're walking the streets
Speaker 1: and we are maybe going to go to another bar,
Speaker 1: and this guy behind us, and he's probably twenty five
Speaker 1: feet behind us, he's a little ways behind us, goes, hey,
Speaker 1: excuse me, and we both turn around and go yeah,
Speaker 1: and then he just starts walking quickly towards us, which
Speaker 1: was so weird, and both of us just like got
Speaker 1: into attack stances immediately, because like, why aren't you why
Speaker 1: did you stop talking?
Speaker 3: Why are you coming towards us quickly?
Speaker 1: It's a very brightly lit area of Beacon Hill, which
Speaker 1: is like a very nice area of Boston, And I'm
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't think you're going to attack us,
Speaker 1: but what the fuck is going on? And he goes, oh, sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm just looking for clink and I go, wait, what
Speaker 1: the fuck is going on? And Jackie goes like, I
Speaker 1: thought maybe he listened to your podcast. And then I
Speaker 1: remembered that when I was trying to make a reservation
Speaker 1: for dinner earlier, there is a place called clink as
Speaker 1: in clinking your glasses right two blocks from where we were.
Speaker 1: So this guy was just rushing towards us to ask
Speaker 1: us where the bar clink was, and I was having
Speaker 1: a full out of body experience where I thought I
Speaker 1: was getting attacked, then I thought I was getting recognized,
Speaker 1: and then it turned out I just had to help
Speaker 1: this man look at Google Maps and he was like,
Speaker 1: he was like, oh sorry, like it was like a
Speaker 1: drunk like Boston guide. He was like, oh sorry, like
Speaker 1: I didn't realize, and I was like, yeah, you just
Speaker 1: can't like rush towards two women on a dark street
Speaker 1: at like on.
Speaker 3: A Friday night at eleven o'clock. This is your brain, sir.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but clink reminds me of clink clink from the
Speaker 2: Jersey Housewives, you know.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, but you know, always been associated with the
Speaker 1: sound of clinking.
Speaker 3: Because that's about it. That's more positive.
Speaker 2: I do also want to say we both saw Don't
Speaker 2: Worry Darling separately.
Speaker 1: Oh yes we did. I went and saw it with
Speaker 1: my husband for a little date night. Lisa saw it
Speaker 1: in New York with a pal, and I mean so
Speaker 1: much hype I wanted to see.
Speaker 3: There was truly.
Speaker 1: It was annoying because a bunch of stuff I wanted
Speaker 1: to see I just missed that weekend, Like I just missed, Nope,
Speaker 1: Lisa's movie that now I'm gonna have to watch it
Speaker 1: on streaming.
Speaker 3: I well you can. Also, yeah, thank you to all.
Speaker 1: Of the listeners who just sent us clips that they
Speaker 1: took in the theater of Lisa's.
Speaker 3: Park, because now I feel like I have seen it.
Speaker 3: I can post the photo.
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's time where if I could finally
Speaker 2: put it on the grid and be like, listen, I
Speaker 2: was in this and I worked with a horse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's like maybe once it's on streaming,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, it's not in at least in LA.
Speaker 3: It's not in theaters anymore.
Speaker 1: Because I wanted to see that and I wanted to
Speaker 1: see Boddy's Body's Bodies. Both had just left the theaters,
Speaker 1: and so I wasn't super hot on seeing Don't worry, Darling,
Speaker 1: but it's was the best. Everything was so horror, and
Speaker 1: I didn't really want to see horror if it wasn't
Speaker 1: Body's Body's Bodies, because that seemed like funny horror. So
Speaker 1: we went and I really enjoyed going to see it
Speaker 1: and watching it. But I found a lot of holes
Speaker 1: in it that I did talk to Liza about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I didn't mind the holes.
Speaker 2: Like the moment I saw the trailer before all this drama,
Speaker 2: I was like, from the moment I saw the trailer,
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm seeing this, this is a genre. I
Speaker 2: and joy I like a housewife thriller. What's going on?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like That's what I liked about it because
Speaker 1: it said it said like thriller. When I was looking
Speaker 1: at all the different movies, because my husband was at
Speaker 1: first like really, and I go, I'm sorry, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to see one of these nasty, rip up people's
Speaker 1: bodies horror movies. And there really wasn't. I'd already seen Bros. Which,
Speaker 1: by the way, everybody goes see Bros. It's fucking so funny,
Speaker 1: and so there was like nothing really else. But I
Speaker 1: had a really good time going. And as I said
Speaker 1: to you, gorgeous, like visually gorgeous. Every output on Florence
Speaker 1: Pew is like it was born to be on her body,
Speaker 1: like it was just like sewn around her body. Everybody
Speaker 1: looked so good that her acting was amazing.
Speaker 3: No, it was an enjoyable thing.
Speaker 2: It's like I feel nowadays, it's like this is the
Speaker 2: worst that says the best, that says a scan and
Speaker 2: it's like, can I just watch a movie and have
Speaker 2: a good time, Like you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: It's like I had a good time.
Speaker 2: So like my opinion where it's like we're forgetting that,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I loved it. I had a great time.
Speaker 1: I had a great time and visually gorgeous and amazing acting.
Speaker 1: And I also thought, okay, there was like a couple
Speaker 1: things I think like I would have done differently, or
Speaker 1: I like didn't like some of the rules, Like I
Speaker 1: didn't understand some of the rules of the world, as
Speaker 1: I told you.
Speaker 3: But those things don't bother me.
Speaker 1: Our friend Kate Berlant is in it, and she's so
Speaker 1: funny asif Ali so funny in it.
Speaker 3: And there's an SVU guy in it. There is a detective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the guy who plays cal Doon, the guy
Speaker 1: who plays cal Doone is in it, the one who's
Speaker 1: like the one who has a fake that he's in
Speaker 1: a relationship with Rollins for the green card guy.
Speaker 3: And I deserve some loving too, So I studied. I
Speaker 3: liked it.
Speaker 2: I thought it was exciting. I enjoyed watching it. I
Speaker 2: was like, what's going on. Olivia Wilde's a great actress
Speaker 2: and like give it to me. I don't know, but
Speaker 2: there are some issues for sure. But it was hard
Speaker 2: to find like really in depth good analysis because everyone
Speaker 2: was into the drama and all of that, and so, yeah,
Speaker 2: like a little frustrating that it's not Yeah.
Speaker 1: Which I do feel like there is a pretty heavy
Speaker 1: like undercurrent of misogyny going on where it's like, no
Speaker 1: one would care about this if it was happening to
Speaker 1: a male director, like, oh, you're fucking the female star
Speaker 1: of your movie, Like no one would care, you know, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, actors not getting along, Christian Bale screaming at people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just like so annoying.
Speaker 2: But it's and I hope she gets to direct and
Speaker 2: have a great career and like fuck everyone and we'll
Speaker 2: like it'll be the Britney Spears and then in the
Speaker 2: future it'll be like, Wow, we really fucked up, and
Speaker 2: you know we never learned.
Speaker 3: We're just like horrific mammals on the planet. Yeah, Monica Lewinski,
Speaker 3: a lot of other people we've fucked over.
Speaker 1: Uh it is this episode is wide, releasing on ten
Speaker 1: twenty five. I know we have another episode beforehand, but
Speaker 1: please register to vote if you have not registered to vote.
Speaker 1: I just saw someone in their stories put that there.
Speaker 1: They got an email that was like, hello, your voter
Speaker 1: registration has been canceled, and it was like, not something
Speaker 1: they did.
Speaker 3: They didn't move, they didn't do anything. So just double check.
Speaker 1: Just hop on there and double check that you're getting
Speaker 1: your ballot Cuz I really cannot believe the amount of
Speaker 1: like money that is going towards this, like football player
Speaker 1: who paid for an abortion but is saying that no
Speaker 1: one else can have abortions. Like I just relate you guys.
Speaker 1: You got to vote for Warnock and George.
Speaker 3: Please.
Speaker 1: And that's my that's my daily soapbox about politics. Yeah,
Speaker 1: everything sucks my weekly. Well, we don't have to go
Speaker 1: right into everything sucks. I'm just telling people to vote, okay. Also,
Speaker 1: I wanted to give a shout out to Helen.
Speaker 2: She was wearing a sweater at a show in West Covina,
Speaker 2: and I said, I'm going to shout you out, bitch,
Speaker 2: and so I'm doing it.
Speaker 3: So that's that we think it for.
Speaker 1: The flag case case little pink.
Speaker 3: Flag but it reminds me of The Simpsons. Do you
Speaker 3: know the episode I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: Homer has a little flag of the library and he
Speaker 2: goes go school. It's the Thomas Edison episode where he's
Speaker 2: trying to invent stuff and he's at the school library
Speaker 2: and they're like, are you a student here, sir, and
Speaker 2: he goes, yeah, go school, and it's just school on
Speaker 2: his little flag.
Speaker 3: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I took a tour of a potential elementary school for
Speaker 1: Rosie and they took us to the library and I
Speaker 1: like breathed in and the mel like took me back
Speaker 1: like I've been to like regular libraries, but they're just
Speaker 1: so big, like kid libraries are so small that like
Speaker 1: the scent of library book was just like concentrated, and
Speaker 1: like me and all the other parents on the tour
Speaker 1: were like, oh my god, I've literally been transported like
Speaker 1: I'm in third grade. Like it was really wild. The
Speaker 1: library smell, Oh my gosh, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 3: I do. I couldn't think of a book smell.
Speaker 2: I can't really fantasize or feel a library smell at
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 1: Like when I walked in, it just reminded me of
Speaker 1: like the cards. We would like sign our names out
Speaker 1: on books, like maybe I'm a little older than you,
Speaker 1: and those were gone by the time you were in.
Speaker 2: We had cards, but it was had cards a stamp.
Speaker 2: It was a stamp with the date.
Speaker 1: Well you did a stamp for the date to return, right,
Speaker 1: But then you would sign your name and like every
Speaker 1: time you checked out a book you could see like
Speaker 1: the last six people who took it out. Oh wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, god,
Speaker 1: everything's cool.
Speaker 2: What episode are we doing? Where are we?
Speaker 3: We got a good episode for you. Let's get started.
Speaker 1: You're gonna love it.
Speaker 2: All right, guys, we're doing Alta Cockers.
Speaker 3: So annoying.
Speaker 2: Such a Warren light bullshit. But it's not season twenty.
Speaker 1: I think that's him. Warren is still here. Warren is
Speaker 1: still there at twenty. He came back at like seventeen
Speaker 1: or something.
Speaker 3: Oh so, just the episode title is ten, So Alta
Speaker 3: Cockers is ten. Okay, Oh no, you're right. It must
Speaker 3: not be him.
Speaker 1: He must have come back in twenty one, because you're right,
Speaker 1: that's not that's not twenty letters. You're right, you're right,
Speaker 1: So he's not there. This all the hackers though, did
Speaker 1: you look up what it means. No, Oh okay, I
Speaker 1: looked it up when the episode came on because I
Speaker 1: was like, what the fuck?
Speaker 3: They never say it? What does this mean?
Speaker 1: It's like a Yiddish thing that means like old fuss
Speaker 1: budgety old people.
Speaker 2: You know, like a perfect title. So you've been wanting
Speaker 2: to do this since the beginning. I feel like when
Speaker 2: we were pitching this podcast, you brought up this episode.
Speaker 1: Well, yes, because I'll tell you this was one of
Speaker 1: the test episodes I did with my other my original
Speaker 1: co hosts. We did this as a test episode, but
Speaker 1: I think she did the crime and I did the episode.
Speaker 1: So this time I did the crime and I was
Speaker 1: remembering all of it that she had told me. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so somewhere there's like an episode of me and Jackie
Speaker 1: Zebrowski talking about this episode. But that's why I talked
Speaker 1: about it in pitching because I had like already gone
Speaker 1: through it and done it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember you being obsessed with this, so I
Speaker 2: am happy that we finally got to do it.
Speaker 3: Well.
Speaker 1: Also, the crime, the crime, the people this is based
Speaker 1: on is like kind of New York folklore and like
Speaker 1: people I had never heard of, So that's why I
Speaker 1: thought was interesting about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is a good episode.
Speaker 2: It opens on a close up of some red lipsticked
Speaker 2: lips and there's like a poetry erotic reading happening. I
Speaker 2: would say, we don't know exactly like a book. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's going to be a book. But at first I
Speaker 2: was like, what is this sex show?
Speaker 3: This shop that they're in. Do you recognize this?
Speaker 1: I'm I'm almost positive this is the Housing Works bookstore
Speaker 1: in like uh in like Sova, Houston, Yeah, soho because
Speaker 1: Jared had a comedy show here forever and this really
Speaker 1: has the vibes of it.
Speaker 2: So if you know, But I don't remember there being
Speaker 2: a balcony at the Housing Works one.
Speaker 1: There was in a part of it maybe I don't know.
Speaker 1: We got to find out where this was. I need
Speaker 1: to know. I'm gonna like google it. But keep going.
Speaker 2: So there's a microphone and then it cuts to a
Speaker 2: wide shot and it's a bookstore but it's lit like
Speaker 2: a nightclub and there are strung Christmas lights all over,
Speaker 2: so you know these people are hip. We see the
Speaker 2: reader performers wearing an off the shoulder top with a
Speaker 2: collar around their neck, and we hear look I hear
Speaker 2: Tyota his tongue felt like a worm. And then as
Speaker 2: she continues, ominous music starts to play and it pans
Speaker 2: up to the balcony level, and then there's a spotlight,
Speaker 2: and so we just start seeing everyone. But there is
Speaker 2: a spotlight on like a man that's back lit by
Speaker 2: the light. And I don't think we're supposed to trust
Speaker 2: this man.
Speaker 3: This is like a very moody book reading. I feel
Speaker 3: like book.
Speaker 1: Reading is usually just like someone sitting up at a table,
Speaker 1: like regular lights, and this is like sexual mood lighting.
Speaker 3: Oh.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say the book that I brought with
Speaker 2: me for this trip, I brought Arden Marine's book.
Speaker 1: Oh, straight out a Little Compton, Little miss Little Compton.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's good.
Speaker 2: I started it. But I'm like you, reading is tough. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so tough. Yeah, it's a very moody reading. There's
Speaker 2: a man we shouldn't trust. And then they focus on
Speaker 2: a goate mustache man who's very into the reading. Couples
Speaker 2: are kissing, they're rubbing on each other as they listen,
Speaker 2: and then they zoom in on another man's face and
Speaker 2: then another man's So it's like, okay, it's enough.
Speaker 3: I don't need this parade.
Speaker 2: But people are clapping, which is nice, and there's a
Speaker 2: blonde bob with bangs. So there's just like a lot
Speaker 2: of people. Everybody. Everyone is shady. That's what I wrote.
Speaker 2: Everyone is shady. And now the lights are fully on
Speaker 2: and it's a book signing time. And so the book
Speaker 2: is called Barracuda by Bobby O'Rourke.
Speaker 1: Blue Barracuda. I think it's called right Oka, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: blue Bear Barracuda, which which I only mentioned because all
Speaker 1: the lighting is very blue and like, I feel like
Speaker 1: it's part of it.
Speaker 3: You're totally right.
Speaker 2: So while there's so while Bobby is signing the books,
Speaker 2: there's a man behind her, probably like pr editor or
Speaker 2: something like that, but he does look like he would
Speaker 2: work at the Trump administration, and he's busy typing on
Speaker 2: his cell phone while listening to, you know, the people
Speaker 2: meeting Bobby. Everyone is now kissing Bobby's ass, like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, you're amazing to read, this is extraordinary.
Speaker 3: How did you do it? Oh my god, You've had
Speaker 3: such a hard life.
Speaker 2: And they ask Walker, the blonde floppy hair man, like
Speaker 2: how did you find this person? And he says that
Speaker 2: Bobby actually found him so pretty wild, and then the
Speaker 2: woman says, color me green.
Speaker 1: Not sure what that means, because jealousy is green is
Speaker 1: the color of jealousy, so it's called me jealous, so
Speaker 1: it's like, color me green, like I'm green, I'm green
Speaker 1: with envy. Essentially, she wants to write no because she
Speaker 1: he's another agent and is like, I wish a huge
Speaker 1: bestseller just fucking walked off the street into my life.
Speaker 3: That would be amazing. Yeah, that is okay.
Speaker 2: So they talk business and then Bobby's over it and
Speaker 2: walks away as the Glitterati and Walter continue to talk
Speaker 2: about how amazing she is, and then she grabs a
Speaker 2: drink and sneaks off quick down the stairs to escape,
Speaker 2: and then it cuts to a shot of the city,
Speaker 2: bad news, police lights and someone saying it's a nasty one, sonny,
Speaker 2: and that we are here with Careese and Finn's voices
Speaker 2: on the scene and they're talking so basically book reading,
Speaker 2: signing cocktails. Then the writer comes out for a smoke
Speaker 2: and then brick to the head rintse dry repeat, and
Speaker 2: Benson's on the scene and the men ask if she
Speaker 2: was raped, and she wasn't, so Crisy's like, then, what
Speaker 2: the fuck are we doing here? And then Benson explains, well,
Speaker 2: she's not a she physically anyway, we might be looking
Speaker 2: at a hate crime.
Speaker 1: Which it's funny that this episode was only from twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: and like, now saying that would not be it would
Speaker 1: not be cool for Benson to say that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but then how would you say it if
Speaker 2: it's like that, If it's a hate crime, you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a trans woman.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd be like, crime, she's trans, so this could
Speaker 3: be a hate crime.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so and then they show her face laying
Speaker 2: on the cold cement with a pool of blood around her,
Speaker 2: and straight to the credits. Yeah, so now we're back
Speaker 2: from the credits and straight into a walk and talk.
Speaker 3: But this is speedy.
Speaker 2: This is like an Olympic style pace of walking and talking.
Speaker 2: Chrisy says, we pulled prints from the brick, but they're
Speaker 2: not in any database. But Bobby is sixteen years old.
Speaker 2: That's sad.
Speaker 1: Ye.
Speaker 2: They also keep saying Bobby is a he and he
Speaker 2: ran away from home. He gave a fake address, and
Speaker 2: then yeah, I wrote, like season twenty, what the fuck
Speaker 2: is going on? But Rollins is reading the book and
Speaker 2: Bobby's life was tough and they pulled tricks.
Speaker 3: To get by.
Speaker 2: So then Creasy says the word transgender, and Rollins is like, actually, no,
Speaker 2: Bobby isn't. He just realized he made more money writing
Speaker 2: as a girl and decided to go with it. So
Speaker 2: maybe Svo is correct in all of this. I don't
Speaker 2: know how they knew it or Rollins knows it.
Speaker 3: Better, I guess.
Speaker 1: And how does Rowlins know that? Like does he say
Speaker 1: in the book, I'm actually a boy. I just dressed
Speaker 1: up like a girl, Like no, because that would fuck
Speaker 1: it up. Maybe they talked to the yeah guy who
Speaker 1: knows yea. But so that's different. So that's just because
Speaker 1: like yeah, more like drag. Well he's just across, he's
Speaker 1: just cross cross dressing.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's what it wears.
Speaker 2: So Finn has something and he has the video from
Speaker 2: the bookstore after party and he was like, well, if
Speaker 2: you're counting, Bobby had three drinks. And then this man
Speaker 2: on the tape is seen following Bobby out back. So
Speaker 2: check in with the bookstore, live says, and let's get
Speaker 2: this guy. So we're in the bookstore and the workers
Speaker 2: looking at the picture and is saying this is a
Speaker 2: tragedy and that Bobby was going to be one of
Speaker 2: the greats.
Speaker 3: He's really distressed and he can't I d the guy though.
Speaker 2: There was a short guest list, but then it was
Speaker 2: first come, first surf. If you want info on that list,
Speaker 2: go talk to Bobby's publisher. The worker says, so our
Speaker 2: detectives had to pitch Dark Press. So Walter is chatting
Speaker 2: and explains their journey together. One day, he got a
Speaker 2: manuscript and read it in one day, but there was
Speaker 2: no name or address on the story, and then he
Speaker 2: received a call a few days later, and this changed
Speaker 2: Walter's life forever. So Walter is saying, like, Bobby has
Speaker 2: been through so much that even with the success of
Speaker 2: the book and everything that's happening, and it got him
Speaker 2: off the streets, he still constantly drives by Twelfth Street
Speaker 2: just to make sure that Bobby is not turning any
Speaker 2: tricks and isn't like out there. And he's down to
Speaker 2: hand over the guest list, but he can't give Bobby's
Speaker 2: address away, and they're like, how did you send him checks?
Speaker 3: And it's like direct deposit twenty eighteen.
Speaker 2: But the bank also doesn't have an address and he
Speaker 2: used the ninety second street.
Speaker 3: Why for that?
Speaker 2: So Benson is like, Okay, let's get down to the basics.
Speaker 2: Why would anyone want to hurt Bobby? And Finn goes, well,
Speaker 2: maybe for the money Bobby has, Like Bobby had half
Speaker 2: a million in his bank account, and Benson makes a
Speaker 2: face like what And that money comes from U selling
Speaker 2: the rights to the book to Hollywood. And while the
Speaker 2: men in Benson discuss, Rollins rushes in with a laptop
Speaker 2: and she might have something. There's a video of the
Speaker 2: reading online and it's like a pan of the crowd
Speaker 2: and they see the guy and beside him is a
Speaker 2: bag of books and he bought Absalom Absalon.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't, I don't know. I don't think
Speaker 3: that's import but I don't know it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is important is that he bought it with
Speaker 2: a credit card. So we get this person's name, and
Speaker 2: this guy's name is William Glover and he lives in
Speaker 2: Forest Hills and they're at his home on November nineteenth.
Speaker 3: He's wearing a.
Speaker 2: Vest and is like a suburb daddy and he's playing
Speaker 2: in front in the front yard with his two kids
Speaker 2: and he sees the detectives and he says, do we
Speaker 2: have to do this here? And he's not confused while
Speaker 2: they're there, and then the wife comes out, so like,
Speaker 2: wash up for dinner and the wife asks no question
Speaker 2: and is like, dear friends, want to stay. I have
Speaker 2: extra lamb. Also I noticed the Volvo station wagon and
Speaker 2: the driveway.
Speaker 3: Hello.
Speaker 2: So he kisses his wife's hard and says I love you,
Speaker 2: and she's left in the yard and he willingly, without
Speaker 2: any confusion, heads out with the detectives. So now we're
Speaker 2: in an interrogation. The room looks extra giant, and it's
Speaker 2: Rollin's Benson and the vest guy, and he says what
Speaker 2: happens now? And Rollins is like, so you're not denying it,
Speaker 2: and he just like screams I killed him.
Speaker 3: And it's like why, bitch, tell us why? And he says,
Speaker 3: you think I'm gay and she says I don't really care,
Speaker 3: and he says, well, I'm not.
Speaker 2: I have a wife and two kids. I saw a
Speaker 2: leaflet of her on the subway and she told me
Speaker 2: her name was Tammy. Three weeks ago picked her up
Speaker 2: for sex off Twelfth Street, and then she had a
Speaker 2: little trouble on zipping my pants or whatever. So he
Speaker 2: gives details of like their interaction and so he bought
Speaker 2: sex from this person who said their name was Tammy.
Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, he's on the subway
Speaker 2: and he sees a leaflet for the book, and it's like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck?
Speaker 3: I was lied to? But how did he know from
Speaker 3: the leaflet that she was a boy?
Speaker 2: Maybe because of the book, maybe there was like maybe
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe he went randomly to the reading.
Speaker 3: I don't know, or maybe he knew he was a
Speaker 3: boy the whole time. Maybe the same thing is what
Speaker 3: spiraled him.
Speaker 2: I mean, obviously he like doesn't want to be guy,
Speaker 2: so I wrote, I hope you rotten jail for life,
Speaker 2: you animal. I'm done with him, But it blacks out
Speaker 2: on the screen and then we open back up on
Speaker 2: a super close up shot of donuts. But also, wow,
Speaker 2: that was a confession, Like what's going to happen next?
Speaker 2: You know, we're only a few minutes in, so it's
Speaker 2: like a red herring, but they did it, so I
Speaker 2: don't even know what that's called.
Speaker 3: I'm a misdirect.
Speaker 2: So anyways, Criesy is standing over the donuts and Benson's
Speaker 2: coming towards him, like just pick one, and he says,
Speaker 2: what's the point and she's like, maybe you're hungry. What
Speaker 2: do you call the fucking weirdo? And they turn the
Speaker 2: convo to the case. The best guy is with Stone
Speaker 2: right now and he's probably gonna plead to man one
Speaker 2: without the hate crime charge, and Creasey's confused, like Bobby
Speaker 2: has so much money from the book, why would he
Speaker 2: go back to the streets. And she says that he's
Speaker 2: been doing it a long time and doesn't know how
Speaker 2: to stop. But Caresey isn't buying it, like what if
Speaker 2: someone was forcing him to do it? Hello, I didn't
Speaker 2: trust Walter? Do you remember that? So what if Walter
Speaker 2: is bad news?
Speaker 3: Bears?
Speaker 2: So Cresey's like if Walter is driving down Twelfth Street
Speaker 2: constantly making sure that Bobby isn't there, But this killer
Speaker 2: nutjob was able to find Bobby, bam so easy like that,
Speaker 2: like this is shady. So now they head to Walter
Speaker 2: and Walter's like, you found the guy. That's great, and
Speaker 2: he seems really happy that the killer is caught and
Speaker 2: he's down to testify, and Caresee's like, slow down, we
Speaker 2: actually have to clarify one thing. You told me you
Speaker 2: drove up and down Twelfth av looking for Bobby. The
Speaker 2: thing is, this guy who killed him found him hooking
Speaker 2: a few times in the past few weeks, So.
Speaker 3: What's up. So Walter flips super fast.
Speaker 2: He's like, okay, I've never met Bobby, and they're like okay,
Speaker 2: So who was doing the reading? And he goes, well,
Speaker 2: Teddy aka Tammy or whatever the hell he was calling
Speaker 2: himself that week. So Careesy keeps at it, and this
Speaker 2: whole thing is a scam. Walter says, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Bobby is real. But the secrecy thing was his idea
Speaker 2: and it worked great until we sold the rights to
Speaker 2: Hollywood and they wanted to see a face. And so
Speaker 2: Creasy says, you created one, and Walter says, yeah, I
Speaker 2: found Tammy on the streets and bought a forage license.
Speaker 2: All he had to do was read a few pages,
Speaker 2: and he paid him five hundred dollars. I didn't think
Speaker 2: anyone would get hurt. He asks if he is under arrest,
Speaker 2: and Creasy is like, I'll keep you posted. So we're
Speaker 2: at the vending machines increase. He's telling Benson if it
Speaker 2: wasn't for this guy's scam. This person wouldn't be dead,
Speaker 2: and Benson's like, okay, but you convinced Stone to take
Speaker 2: this on, Like, dude, come on, you want to charge
Speaker 2: someone for luring people into a free book reading. Benson
Speaker 2: doesn't like it either, but unless we change the law,
Speaker 2: there's nothing they can do. So Finn is sitting reading
Speaker 2: the book at his desk and says, this book is
Speaker 2: filled with underage sex rape like vibes, so maybe we
Speaker 2: can charge people with statutory rape. And Benson's like, I
Speaker 2: doubt he used real names. And Finn is like, but
Speaker 2: what if we can find these men? Like what if
Speaker 2: we can find these people in the book that we're
Speaker 2: reading about? So Creasy says, there is zero chance this
Speaker 2: person's going to show their face now, but Finn actually
Speaker 2: proactive wildly, and Bobby made a couple of online banking
Speaker 2: moves and he sent that to Taro and they tracked
Speaker 2: the IP address. So we pull up to a giant
Speaker 2: ass which's castle like you know those like tower cylinders
Speaker 2: with like the cone things on top. It's very haunted
Speaker 2: mansion vibes, and I'm like, how is this someone's home?
Speaker 2: I'm shocked and Finn goes, well, maybe they rent a room.
Speaker 2: So they walk towards the haunted home knock knock, NYPD
Speaker 2: and a woman on the street with a stroller says,
Speaker 2: what did they do? She says, these people are never seen, like,
Speaker 2: they don't come to anything. She says, the lights go
Speaker 2: up at night, off in the day, delivery guys leave
Speaker 2: the stuff, but I've never.
Speaker 3: Seen anyone take anything in.
Speaker 2: And she says, but it's New York, and I feel
Speaker 2: like people are allowed to be weird.
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, mom. I figure it's New York. People are
Speaker 3: allowed to be weird. I love that.
Speaker 2: So then Finn makes the call and says, we're gonna
Speaker 2: need a team and a warrant. So they jimmy the
Speaker 2: lock and a whole team enters this castle and it's dusty,
Speaker 2: vampire vibes, and they start yelling Bobby, Bobby o'roorke, and
Speaker 2: they think whoever lives here might be keeping Bobby prisoner.
Speaker 2: So they're looking around this whole dark ass house with
Speaker 2: flashlights and there's moving like they're moving around. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of sliding doors, and the set designer deserves an Emmy.
Speaker 2: I'll say that this is intense, intense set design, and
Speaker 2: Careesy is coughing and covering his face with the smell,
Speaker 2: and Careasey finds dried blood in a corner. So then
Speaker 2: they hear a creek and it's Judd hirsh and he
Speaker 2: has a Yiddish accent to the max. He's in a
Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner's style robe, and he's like, what the hell
Speaker 2: this is my house? I don't like this, and he
Speaker 2: then explains that Bobby O'Rourke is a bartender who died
Speaker 2: fifty years ago. He's like, I went to the damn
Speaker 2: funeral and another man exits a room and it's Wallace
Speaker 2: Sean AKA Clueless and so many other stuff. But what's
Speaker 2: the Princess Bride? Princess Bride is huge, Yeah, but he's
Speaker 2: in so much. Yeah, he's working jenjud These are both
Speaker 2: kind of legends. Yeah, these are both legendary guys in
Speaker 2: our business.
Speaker 3: So then Wala Shawn is like, what the hell did
Speaker 3: you do this time? He did it?
Speaker 2: Arrest his sorry ass. And Bobby died in seventy five,
Speaker 2: not seventy two, And then they start fighting and they
Speaker 2: are brothers and they refuse to be in the same car.
Speaker 3: With him.
Speaker 2: Like, so they're like, you can take us, but I'm
Speaker 2: not sharing a fucking car with this guy. He voted
Speaker 2: for Gerald Ford. I'm not going to ride with him.
Speaker 2: You ride with him, I'm not going And so they're like,
Speaker 2: it's like a vaudeville act. These guys are looney tunes.
Speaker 2: So jud is with Rollins and Benson. He doesn't know
Speaker 2: about this writer and they're like, we trace the IP
Speaker 2: to you, and he doesn't even know what IP is.
Speaker 3: Wala.
Speaker 2: Shawn is in with Finn, like wait, the computers can
Speaker 2: tell you where they are, very Jumanji.
Speaker 3: And Finn is like, honey, I hear you.
Speaker 2: He then uses a bad word but adds a Jewish
Speaker 2: flair to it, so I don't I'm not going to
Speaker 2: say it, but you know, not a fun word, but
Speaker 2: it does sound fun in Yiddish.
Speaker 3: So then he's like, don't you know.
Speaker 2: Finn's like, hey, don't say that, and he goes, what
Speaker 2: it's a word? Who cares? And Finn says, well, it
Speaker 2: hurts people. And then these men are so annoying. This
Speaker 2: is I think the reason I hate this episode. So
Speaker 2: he calls his brother a son of a bitch. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm back on board. And then he calls him a schmuck.
Speaker 3: Love that.
Speaker 2: Then the other brother is like, he's a bum, he
Speaker 2: would hurt him. What do you think he did to Charise?
Speaker 2: And they're like, who is Charisse? And then there's a
Speaker 2: bad word for black people with some Jewish flair, some
Speaker 2: Yiddish and everyone's like, you can't say that, and he's like, ah,
Speaker 2: you guys are so annoying. So the parents owned the
Speaker 2: house and their dad died in sixty nine and the
Speaker 2: mom in seventy three, and they were good parents and
Speaker 2: then so then jud hasn't actually even left the house
Speaker 2: since then, and Finn's like, well what about you? And
Speaker 2: the guy Wala Sean is like what, I'm supposed to
Speaker 2: leave it all to himself?
Speaker 3: What is it?
Speaker 2: The mutually exclusive what's that thing from Yellow Jackets? Mutually
Speaker 2: assured destruction? Oh yeah, yeah, that's this where it's like
Speaker 2: their lives are a mess, but they would rather both
Speaker 2: be a mess than one of them get to be
Speaker 2: in this gorgeous house, right, and it's also a hoarding house.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I was clear about that. I mean,
Speaker 2: I said vampires and dust, but it's.
Speaker 1: No horn stacks of shit like major hoarding vibes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, major.
Speaker 2: So we're back to jud and Scharis came in twice
Speaker 2: a week and made terrible soup, but Wallace thought she
Speaker 2: was stealing because he would put quarters all over the
Speaker 2: house and then when there was one missing, he was like,
Speaker 2: she's stealing. So they fired her in nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 2: and Wallace is like, if anything happened to this.
Speaker 3: Boy, it was Joe.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure this this while back and forth is
Speaker 2: it's lasting forever. And so we go to Kari a while,
Speaker 2: and so we go back to Krezy, who's flashlight deep
Speaker 2: in searching the house and there's little little peeks of
Speaker 2: sunlight and really pretty stained glass but mostly a mess.
Speaker 3: And then fuck, man down, Man down.
Speaker 2: A giant bookshelf with tons of books falls on Creasy
Speaker 2: and he's like, get this thing off of me, and
Speaker 2: what if he was alone? Like that is so fucking scary,
Speaker 2: And it was a booby trap, so something's back there.
Speaker 2: So he stepped on something, the shelf fell on him,
Speaker 2: and holy shit, what's back there being protected by this
Speaker 2: booby trap is a laptop with a copy of Bobby's.
Speaker 3: Book done done, done, done.
Speaker 2: And so then the next book is actually a document
Speaker 2: on the computer, so we know for a fact that
Speaker 2: Bobby was there and was writing. We have like a
Speaker 2: sequel being written as it's happening.
Speaker 1: So but also I want to say that the guy
Speaker 1: who helps take the bookshelf off of Caraesy is Montero,
Speaker 1: who is Eddie Hargatea, who is Marishka's brother, who has
Speaker 1: been recurring on a couple of episodes. Oh wow, he's
Speaker 1: always just this officer named Montero that they all know
Speaker 1: and like he's always in like one scene or whatever.
Speaker 2: So Benson's at the pre sinked on the cell phone
Speaker 2: getting scooped, and Creasy's calling from outside the house saying
Speaker 2: that the document was updated two days ago. So they're like,
Speaker 2: keep searching, Bobby might be hiding in there. So there's
Speaker 2: five floors in this house.
Speaker 3: It's huge.
Speaker 2: Now we're back to Wala Shan, who lets Finn know
Speaker 2: that he wants a corn beef sandwich from Carnegie Delli.
Speaker 2: And then Finn is like that place closed two years ago,
Speaker 2: which is a news to me.
Speaker 3: And now I'm sad I loved that place because like.
Speaker 2: You would order one thing and they would give you
Speaker 2: a pickles, a piece of haala, a dip of this,
Speaker 2: like they it's just they would give you so many
Speaker 2: foods for one omelet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and wala.
Speaker 2: Shawn is so funny and says, nobody told me about
Speaker 2: the Shiva. And our lady walks in and says, you're
Speaker 2: coming with me and he says, oh nice, We're going
Speaker 2: home and they're like, not quite, dude, let's go. So
Speaker 2: they're putting the brothers together and it's Judd and Wallace
Speaker 2: with Benson and Rollins and they're like, we know Bobby
Speaker 2: was in your house two days ago. Nobody has seen
Speaker 2: him so and Judd says I haven't and Wallace is like, liar,
Speaker 2: And then they start arguing and Judd says, well, tell them,
Speaker 2: tell them about Izzy Berkowitz and Benson's like, who, what
Speaker 2: is happening? So I guess this isy guys cheated in
Speaker 2: a game in Jim Rubby in nineteen fifty eight, so
Speaker 2: it's like, why are we still talking about it? And
Speaker 2: he's like it shows your character and you have none,
Speaker 2: And Wallace gets up and says, I'm not listening to
Speaker 2: this anymore, and Benson's like, yes, you are, bitch. You're
Speaker 2: gonna sit here until you and your brothers tell us
Speaker 2: what happened to Bobby or Rourke.
Speaker 3: You understand that.
Speaker 2: And they both sit down silent, and they finally realize
Speaker 2: that they're in trouble. Maybe Kreese is still searching. Why
Speaker 2: aren't they wearing hazmats? This is like so dangerous, ye,
Speaker 2: So then Cares finds, uh oh, a deep freezer with
Speaker 2: a lock. Not a good sign, never a good sign,
Speaker 2: and it was covered in blankets and Finn Knock knock
Speaker 2: comes in and they get lab results back and the
Speaker 2: DNA on the manuscript matches blood on floors and the laptop.
Speaker 2: So we're going to search your house f top to
Speaker 2: bottom and we're gonna find him. And then Benson goes
Speaker 2: and that's it. You're both under arrest and put them
Speaker 2: in the cage. So that gets them rattling, and finally
Speaker 2: Wallace says, well, wait, it was me, and Benson goes,
Speaker 2: you killed Bobby and Wallace says, no, there is no Bobby. Okay,
Speaker 2: give them a lawyer if they want one. I'm done,
Speaker 2: and Wallace stops them again and says, look, I wrote it.
Speaker 2: His brother's like whoa you wrote a book, and Wallace
Speaker 2: angrily tells his brother, well, I had to do something.
Speaker 2: Who do you think pays for the groceries and the
Speaker 2: real estate taxes? And Judd goes, well, what about mama's money?
Speaker 2: And Wallace is like, that's gonna run out in six months.
Speaker 2: But you never think about the future.
Speaker 3: You never do.
Speaker 2: I always have to think about the future. And she says,
Speaker 2: wait a minute. If you haven't left the house since
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, how is it that you got a
Speaker 2: computer to write on good detective work. Jud again confuses like, whoa,
Speaker 2: you have a computer? I love this and Wallace's pissed. No,
Speaker 2: I used hyroglyphics and says focus. So Wallace explains that
Speaker 2: he gave Carlos, the boy that delivers from the Delhi,
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars to buy it and set it up
Speaker 2: for him.
Speaker 3: So then tell us about the blood.
Speaker 2: He says, he cut himself when trying to carry his
Speaker 2: mother's sewing machine into the basement and stepped on a
Speaker 2: piece of broken glass. Why do you think Bobby never
Speaker 2: showed his face? The truth is, we didn't kill Bobby
Speaker 2: or Rourke. You people did. Back to Careese, Jimmy the
Speaker 2: freezer lock, it breaks open and inside is frozen food
Speaker 2: and a body.
Speaker 3: Yikestunt done.
Speaker 2: So in the freezer there's a dead woman with gray
Speaker 2: long hair and it's an older lady and she is
Speaker 2: dead in that freezer. And now we're back from a
Speaker 2: commercial break. That's obviously done. That's that's an hack break.
Speaker 2: Have you seen Bernie that movie Jack Glass?
Speaker 1: Pieces of It? Yes, I like to watch the whole thing,
Speaker 1: but yeah.
Speaker 3: I love that movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, like the townspeople are real townspeople.
Speaker 1: Yes, we've talked about this on this podcast. Can't stop
Speaker 1: because you love this movie? Yeah, how you do love it?
Speaker 2: So we're back from the commercial break and Benson is
Speaker 2: wearing thick, black rimmed glasses and reading the book with
Speaker 2: a pet or hand to make some notes in the margins,
Speaker 2: and Rollins walks in with a file in hand from
Speaker 2: the Emmy. The dead body is Rose Edelman, tumors in
Speaker 2: both lungs and she didn't die from cancer, but from exphyxiation.
Speaker 2: There's no bruise marks though around her next so they
Speaker 2: must have used a pillow to suffocate her. And this
Speaker 2: is the mother obviously, so Benson is like you read it,
Speaker 2: and Rollins is like yeah.
Speaker 3: So she starts reading out loud, and.
Speaker 2: The text from the book reads like like do I
Speaker 2: hate this guy or love him?
Speaker 3: And does he love or hate me?
Speaker 2: But he wants me enough to let go of his
Speaker 2: hard earned money and it's in such details, and Benson
Speaker 2: is like, I've spoken to so many survivors that speak
Speaker 2: like this, and Rollin's being dense as fuck is like, sure,
Speaker 2: but this is coming from a seventy three year old hoarder.
Speaker 2: And Benson responds who has completely rejected society?
Speaker 3: So Rollins ding ding ding was he abused?
Speaker 2: And Benson's like yeah, and if he was, he deserves
Speaker 2: some closure. So they go to Rikers on November twenty
Speaker 2: sixth Now I do need to mention. So November nineteenth,
Speaker 2: they're starting this in a it's the twenty six Thanksgiving happened.
Speaker 1: We didn't even get to see the squad get together.
Speaker 1: It lives apartment split, a turkey leg fuck.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's like a late and Tuesday, but I think
Speaker 2: that that goes away because Court's on the thirtieth or
Speaker 2: thirty first, so it's like truly.
Speaker 3: Just past Thanksgiving.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So they work on it so anyways, Wallace is
Speaker 2: in an orange jumpsuit and he's telling a white blazer
Speaker 2: Benson childhood stories about being on the beach with his
Speaker 2: mom and his mom loved reading books, and he's talking
Speaker 2: about the waves and the undertow and so sadly these
Speaker 2: boys were like pushed so far from the shore and
Speaker 2: then like whatever, they were trying to be saved and
Speaker 2: they were like getting carried under and then the lifeguard
Speaker 2: saved him, and then he remembers being faced down on
Speaker 2: the shore, regurgitating saltwater with every cough, and Benson's like, well,
Speaker 2: you certainly owe your life to that lifeguard. He goes, Nope,
Speaker 2: I owe mama, Like she made the lifeguard go get them,
Speaker 2: and she kept us afloat because she got there before hand.
Speaker 3: Like she beat him out to us.
Speaker 2: So it's really like the mom that helped save them
Speaker 2: from this undertow situation. And I'm not really sure why
Speaker 2: they're telling the story, but Benson says she sounds like
Speaker 2: an amazing woman, and Wallace makes a face that reminds
Speaker 2: me of Jeff Ross.
Speaker 3: He truly looks like Jeff Ross.
Speaker 1: For a second, I think that you're hearing this whole
Speaker 1: story so that it sets up that these guys didn't
Speaker 1: like viciously kill their mom.
Speaker 3: They were like obsessed with her. You know, Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: a great idea.
Speaker 2: And so he Win says but smiles and is hiding something,
Speaker 2: but then agrees and says, the eggs always think they're
Speaker 2: smarter than the chicken. And now I'm not about to
Speaker 2: confess something that I didn't do, and Benson goes, okay,
Speaker 2: then what about something your brother did? And he's like,
Speaker 2: he ain't gonna say shit, sorry, dude. So Rollin's is
Speaker 2: pregnant in the scene, so of course no one will
Speaker 2: leave her alone ever, and they're just like, so, where's
Speaker 2: your husband? So Jud's asking about the husband, and it's like,
Speaker 2: leave her alone. Let her just be pregnant. She's a slut. Okay, no,
Speaker 2: but there is someone special, and he says, well until
Speaker 2: he marries you, I don't want to hear about him.
Speaker 2: So they giggle and they're honestly like being cute. So
Speaker 2: I was pissed at first because I think everyone should
Speaker 2: just leave her alone. For some reason, boundaries go out
Speaker 2: the door when someone's pregnant. I'm sure people were saying
Speaker 2: insane things to you Yeah. People are wild. They say
Speaker 2: whatever they want, they touch you. Yeah, are you gonna
Speaker 2: give vaginal birth? And yeah, yeahing about like it's people
Speaker 2: are crazy. But he's just being sweet, like a sweet
Speaker 2: jew man. I feel like being like, oh, well, if
Speaker 2: he doesn't marry you, I hate him. So she asks
Speaker 2: if he wants a wife, and he says no, that
Speaker 2: he's too busy. So this is a little trickster rollins here,
Speaker 2: she says, she starts flirting. She's like, but you're too handsome.
Speaker 2: You would have been quite a catch. And he says,
Speaker 2: so are you shocking up like those flower people? And
Speaker 2: she laughs and she says they've been gone for a
Speaker 2: long time and their flower children. He then asks if
Speaker 2: his brother is confessed yet he's weak that kid. She
Speaker 2: asks if he needed to protect him, and he responds,
Speaker 2: damn straight. But he then says it sometimes it is
Speaker 2: really hard to be the big brother because you know,
Speaker 2: you feel all this responsibility to protect your little brother.
Speaker 2: And it cuts back to Benson and Wallace and she
Speaker 2: says she wants to talk about the book and that
Speaker 2: it was powerful, and he gets excited. He's like, you
Speaker 2: read it, and she says it was so real that
Speaker 2: actually she doesn't get how he could have written it
Speaker 2: without and before she can finish, she says, I don't
Speaker 2: want to talk about that, and gets up from his
Speaker 2: chair to stare at a wall. She says, I know
Speaker 2: how hard it must have been, and he says, you know,
Speaker 2: bump kiss. She says, no, anyone that could have written
Speaker 2: that book certainly must have lived through something.
Speaker 3: You wrote that so you can.
Speaker 2: Tell the world what happened and how devastating it was.
Speaker 2: And he says no, I wrote that book for money,
Speaker 2: and she says you were ashamed and that's why you
Speaker 2: didn't use your name. She says, shame isn't done you,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't your fault. Who did this to you,
Speaker 2: who hurt you? And then it cuts back to Judd
Speaker 2: and Rollins and now you know they do these back
Speaker 2: and forth.
Speaker 3: So after school we.
Speaker 2: Used to go to this play center and there was
Speaker 2: a counselor that and he was twenty and Rollins asks
Speaker 2: if he did anything to his brother and he says,
Speaker 2: fuck no. What kind of brother would I be if
Speaker 2: I allowed that? And she says, but he hurt you
Speaker 2: and he yells, I was only twelve years old. Damn
Speaker 2: it well kind of a person. He says that there
Speaker 2: was a guy called Vincent and he was always around
Speaker 2: and first time was in the locker room when nobody
Speaker 2: else was there, and he said, this is what big
Speaker 2: boys do. And it starts to cut back and forth
Speaker 2: fast between the two brothers talking about what happened, and
Speaker 2: jud says, just don't tell my brother, and then Wallace
Speaker 2: had never told anybody, and especially not his brother, who
Speaker 2: would have laughed at him. Then Jud says, I was
Speaker 2: the older brother, How could I have told him? And
Speaker 2: Rond's like, what about your father? And jud says, oh, no,
Speaker 2: like our father would get mad if I'd an't Ace
Speaker 2: a test, like how could I tell him about this?
Speaker 2: And Benson asks like, what about your mother? And Wallace says,
Speaker 2: of course not. She would have thought I was dirty,
Speaker 2: and I would have and wouldn't have loved me anymore.
Speaker 1: Did they get molested by separate guys? No, Oh, it
Speaker 1: was the same guy. I thought he gave a different name. No,
Speaker 1: I think it's the same guy. I mean, we'll see,
Speaker 1: but I think it's the same one.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So Benson and Stone do a walk and talk in
Speaker 2: front of stained glass that says justice behind them, and
Speaker 2: she says, Peter, they were both abused, and he says okay,
Speaker 2: and conveniently they didn't say anything about it till they
Speaker 2: were charged. She says, I believe them, and he's like, well,
Speaker 2: I'll do my best to get it excluded from the trial.
Speaker 2: He says, proudly fucking loser to be that hot and
Speaker 2: so wildly hated, Like it's a special level of bad
Speaker 2: personality and choices with this character, and like we even
Speaker 2: like Tomorrow, like we still think Amorrow's hot and he's
Speaker 2: shot unarmed children, and then with Stone, it's just like
Speaker 2: get away from us. Benson is like, you won't have
Speaker 2: to fucking do that. They both won't ever admit it,
Speaker 2: and so like you don't have to like work to
Speaker 2: exclude it.
Speaker 3: They're pretty ashamed of what happened. They won't even admit
Speaker 3: it to each other.
Speaker 2: And he's like, great, then that's settled, perfect, And she's
Speaker 2: begging for him to cut them a deal, and it's
Speaker 2: like the mom was sick and in pain, just please,
Speaker 2: and he's like, listen, I already made a deal with
Speaker 2: the attorney. Okay, one year jail, ten years probation, and
Speaker 2: that takes Olivia by surprise. She's like, well that's generous,
Speaker 2: and he goes, yeah, they turned it down. She says
Speaker 2: they're sympathetic defendants and he's like yeah until the jury.
Speaker 2: Here is they kept their mom on ice in the basement.
Speaker 2: So now we're in court and it's the twenty ninth
Speaker 2: and a Thursday. So Thanksgiving was definitely last week. I
Speaker 2: told you during the case, no one even said like,
Speaker 2: oh fuck, are you going someone?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No one even brings in leftovers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nobody complained about working. So we got defense attorney
Speaker 2: Evan Brawn. He's in eight episodes of SCVU and he's
Speaker 2: played by Michael Kostra and classic evil guy face. You know,
Speaker 2: it must be sad, so like this is an actor.
Speaker 2: My mom would be like, I don't like him.
Speaker 3: He's bad. You know.
Speaker 2: She doesn't like Christopher Walking, like anyone that ever plays
Speaker 2: anyone bad to her, it's like, get them away.
Speaker 3: Oh not Christopher Walking. I don't know. I was thinking
Speaker 3: Willem Dafoe. Do they look similar? No they don't, but
Speaker 3: they're both creepy looking kind of you don't think they
Speaker 3: look similar at all. Christopher Walking and Willem Defoe. I don't. Okay,
Speaker 3: we'll do a poll. We'll do a poll.
Speaker 2: Casey, will you do a note so we post this,
Speaker 2: ha ha, We're going to do a poll. So he's
Speaker 2: addressing the jury in a beautiful shot of television, I
Speaker 2: would say. He says, this is a case about love,
Speaker 2: about two sons who just love their mom too much.
Speaker 2: And since I love the way that this was shot,
Speaker 2: I looked up the director and he's done thirty four
Speaker 2: episodes of SVO and every other Dick Wolf show, so
Speaker 2: he's really been working and incredible, and I didn't even
Speaker 2: write his name down.
Speaker 3: Helloa.
Speaker 2: He says it always struck him at as odd that
Speaker 2: the law says that a mother must take care of
Speaker 2: their kids, so you would think there would be a
Speaker 2: law that says kids should take care of her when
Speaker 2: she is old and sick. And he says, Rose got
Speaker 2: very sick and we've only had six months to live,
Speaker 2: and then she died. And mister Stone will say that
Speaker 2: they that these two loving sons murdered her, but they're
Speaker 2: two sons who cooked for her, bathed her and made
Speaker 2: sure she took her meds, two boys that love their
Speaker 2: mom so much. Though when she passed away, they couldn't
Speaker 2: bear to see her buried in Queen's and dirt. And
Speaker 2: then then he goes an entree for hungry worms, like
Speaker 2: he's laying it on thick. This is a real performance,
Speaker 2: and jud puts his head in his hands, and then
Speaker 2: our dude says, or worse yet, shoved into a flaming
Speaker 2: hot oven. And I feel like there's Holocaust underdowns here.
Speaker 3: Because I want to be cremated, and I don't think
Speaker 3: that's like a mean thing to do to a body.
Speaker 2: I definitely think this is Holocaust vibes and it's a
Speaker 2: crazy thing to do to a body.
Speaker 4: I want.
Speaker 1: That's what I want to happen to me. I don't
Speaker 1: want to like rot for years in the ground. Sorry,
Speaker 1: that's not for me. No, that's totally fine.
Speaker 3: But you can't say that burning a body is like chill.
Speaker 3: It's all. It's just like what we've accepted. But did
Speaker 3: you watch Midsommer? Really? You did it? I had Jared
Speaker 3: explain it to me ruined style.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like a Midsommer they make the old guys
Speaker 2: like jump off a cliff to their deaths and like
Speaker 2: we think that's fucked right, Like I didn't want to.
Speaker 3: I didn't like watching that.
Speaker 2: So so I feel if a different society that didn't
Speaker 2: burn their dead loved ones.
Speaker 3: Would also be like, this is fucked. Why what do
Speaker 3: you think is the thing to do with dead people?
Speaker 2: I don't know, Throw me at sea. I want to
Speaker 2: go to the bottom of the ocean.
Speaker 1: Jesus. You know, it's hard to make a body sink.
Speaker 1: They're gonna have to really weigh you down. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of work. Well no, because when oh yeah, cause
Speaker 1: I'm not breathing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sosh, these bodies woat back up.
Speaker 1: That's why Dexter always chopped them up into like bags
Speaker 1: and like weighed them down and then they all got
Speaker 1: found in the end.
Speaker 3: Anyway, but they do burials at sea, no.
Speaker 1: I mean Viking burials was like you put them out
Speaker 1: at sea and then you set them on fire. So
Speaker 1: it's combining Joe two of these things.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, so whatever, there's a holocaust undertone
Speaker 2: and then and then he's like and then put it
Speaker 2: in a little jar. And at this point Judd is
Speaker 2: like putting his fists in his mouth, like he is
Speaker 2: not happy. And Joe and Ben loved their mother, so much.
Speaker 2: They kept her as she was where she wanted to be,
Speaker 2: in her home and if you ask me, that's love.
Speaker 2: And the jury's thinking they're taking it in, and he smiles.
Speaker 2: He knows he did a very good job in his
Speaker 2: opening statements. So the judge asks Stone to bring up
Speaker 2: the first witness, and judge stands up and says that's enough.
Speaker 2: And the judge tries to get him to stop and
Speaker 2: sit down, and he's like, no, judge, no, that's enough.
Speaker 2: And then Wallace looks confused and he says, I did it.
Speaker 2: I killed my mother. I did it. Ben had nothing
Speaker 2: to do with it. I did, and I'm so sorry mama,
Speaker 2: and he collapses into Wallace and he's full collapse. He
Speaker 2: is now in the hospital with a tube in his nose,
Speaker 2: and we hear Wallace yell, you stupid son of a bitch,
Speaker 2: always the martyr.
Speaker 3: Look what you did, you schmuck.
Speaker 2: Stone is behind this very private, intense moment, listening in
Speaker 2: to these brothers and like, can you just give him
Speaker 2: some space. Benson walks up to Stone and Stone fills
Speaker 2: her in that Judd Hirsh did have a massive coronary
Speaker 2: and again there's very sexy blue light on them. So
Speaker 2: this is like a nightclub hot that was wild blue lighting. Yeah,
Speaker 2: for a hospital that I noticed that. I was like,
Speaker 2: what's happening. Wallace just keeps crying and saying stupid, stupid, stupid,
Speaker 2: always hogging the stage. And now he's like full crying
Speaker 2: and he realizes he's really gonna like his brother's in trouble.
Speaker 2: So Benson says, your brother is still protecting you, and
Speaker 2: he says back, well, what do I have to protect nothing?
Speaker 2: The heart machine goes nuts, doctors run in and you know,
Speaker 2: everyone needs to get out, and Wallace keeps crying, what's happening, No,
Speaker 2: what's happening, what's going on? And Benson walks him out
Speaker 2: as they try to help Judd and put oxygen on him,
Speaker 2: and the doctor comes out and says, I'm sorry, and
Speaker 2: he asks if he can see him, and the doctor
Speaker 2: of course says yes. So Stone says he's going to
Speaker 2: go officially drop the charges against Wallace and walks off.
Speaker 2: Wallace is sitting over his brother's dead body. His name
Speaker 2: was Vincent, he says at the center. I know I
Speaker 2: should have told you, but I didn't have the strength.
Speaker 2: But I remember it as if it was today his
Speaker 2: spotted hands jerking forward and landing on top.
Speaker 3: Of my head.
Speaker 2: Retreat or resistance was futile, So I just reminded myself
Speaker 2: to breathe in and out. And Benson's in the doorway
Speaker 2: listening to the family's most sensitive moment, and she's so sad.
Speaker 2: They're all sad, and under the neon blue nightclub light,
Speaker 2: it pans out slowly and that's dick Wolf baby.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a real nightclub situation going on at that hospital.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, this episode is wild.
Speaker 1: It's like sad and weird, and like it's also kind
Speaker 1: of weird that like Wallace Shawn's character, Like when they
Speaker 1: first brought you guys in, why didn't you just say, Hey,
Speaker 1: what's up? There's no Bobby, I'm Bobby. You were trying
Speaker 1: to pin the murder of an invisible person on your brother.
Speaker 1: I don't think you hate your brother that much. Like
Speaker 1: it was so weird, But this is based on like
Speaker 1: three different real life things. So let's go to our
Speaker 1: little messages and we'll be right back.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're back.
Speaker 1: So there's three little sections of the crime portion of this.
Speaker 1: I'll try to get through everything. So obviously Bobby's murder
Speaker 1: could be based on any number of murders of like
Speaker 1: innocent trans women. There is an epidemic of violence against
Speaker 1: Trump people, and it does seem though like that this
Speaker 1: timing wise is based off the murder of Angie Zapata,
Speaker 1: who was a trans woman killed in two thousand and
Speaker 1: eight in Colorado. Not based on timing, sorry, because it
Speaker 1: was ten years earlier, but just based on I'll get
Speaker 1: into it. So Angie was eighteen when she met Alan
Speaker 1: Andrade or Andreid, who was thirty one on the internet.
Speaker 1: They spent three days together engaged in some sexual activity,
Speaker 1: and then he realized that she was trans, and he
Speaker 1: beat her to death and drove off in her car
Speaker 1: at her own This was at her own home.
Speaker 3: It was very clearly a hate crime.
Speaker 1: His lawyer tried to use this like victim blaming strategy
Speaker 1: to excuse his behavior, like because you know, she kept
Speaker 1: it secret that she was trans and then he reacted.
Speaker 3: But he admitted to the crime on draw.
Speaker 1: Admitted to the crime and referred to Angie several times
Speaker 1: as it in interviews, and he was thankfully convicted of
Speaker 1: first dream murder, hate crimes, aggravated motor vehicle theft and
Speaker 1: identity theft and got life in prison without the possibility
Speaker 1: of pearl. So luckily he is a monster and he
Speaker 1: is in jail forever. But this was a landmark case
Speaker 1: because it was the first one in the US to
Speaker 1: get a conviction for a hate crime involving a transgender victim.
Speaker 1: So I feel like when they were talking about this
Speaker 1: guy killing Bobby, they were talking about how, oh he'll
Speaker 1: get they'll get a man one without and they'll drop
Speaker 1: the hate crime because it seemed like maybe it's hard
Speaker 1: to convict for a hate crime, but this was like
Speaker 1: the landmark case where it first happened, so that added
Speaker 1: like sixty years to his sentence that it was a
Speaker 1: hate crime as well. So it is important so that
Speaker 1: I wish dudes.
Speaker 2: Were just able to be like, oh, I guess I'm
Speaker 2: attracted to trans women and then living their lives. It's
Speaker 2: like so fucking annoying. Yeah, worse than annoying.
Speaker 1: No, it's horrific, Like this guy like beat her like
Speaker 1: with a fire extinguisher, Like it was a really horrific
Speaker 1: way to die. And it's just there's some resources that
Speaker 1: are in our show notes about Angie that you can
Speaker 1: check out as well. And the whole idea of the
Speaker 1: Bobby character being an actor paid to portray an author
Speaker 1: is based on the J. T. Leroy literary hoax. Now
Speaker 1: I had never heard of this. Jeremiah Terminator le Roi
Speaker 1: was known as JT. Leroy, was like a person who
Speaker 1: published a bunch of these books that were very similar
Speaker 1: to Blue Barracoda about life on the street, the semi
Speaker 1: autographical book about a teen boy his life of drugs, poverty,
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, etc.
Speaker 3: And it was Jeremiah Terminator Larroi known as JT. Leroy.
Speaker 3: But it turned out that J. T.
Speaker 1: Leroy was a persona created by another writer named Laura
Speaker 1: Albert in the nineties. Okay, le Roi quote unquote wrote
Speaker 1: three fictional books and they were obviously written by Laura,
Speaker 1: but then she pretended to be JT. Over the phone
Speaker 1: and an email with people. So after the first book
Speaker 1: came out, I believe it was called Sarah, it was
Speaker 1: optioned for movie stuff. Then people wanted to see who
Speaker 1: is J. T.
Speaker 3: Lowrey.
Speaker 1: They needed a face, right, so she got her sister
Speaker 1: in law, her husband's sister, Savannah Noop, started to appear
Speaker 1: in public as the writer JT. Leroy wearing sunglasses and
Speaker 1: a wig, and I'll tell you what people loved. J. T.
Speaker 3: Leroy.
Speaker 1: He was credited in liner notes and biographies for musicians
Speaker 1: like Billy Corgan, Liz Fair, Brian Adams, Marilyn Manson, Nancy Sinatra,
Speaker 1: Courtney Love and more. He corresponded with Madonna over email.
Speaker 1: He called Carrie Fisher for a personal friend and like
Speaker 1: I said, he had a movie deal in place and
Speaker 1: Gus Van Sant was supposed to direct it, the movie
Speaker 1: of the book.
Speaker 3: Sarah, I read the Marilyn Manson book. Oh yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 3: Of all the books, well.
Speaker 2: You know, rocker and sports things are usually interesting.
Speaker 3: But it was fucked.
Speaker 2: He like talked about his grandfather having krusty dildos, and like,
Speaker 2: I just remember in the book there was photos of
Speaker 2: girls at his concerts that like cut Marilyn Manson's name
Speaker 2: with blood chests and stuff. Oh no, so I think
Speaker 2: I was at the Like I remember reading The Red
Speaker 2: Hot Anthony Keitha's book.
Speaker 3: I think I just liked reading about memoirs.
Speaker 2: Drugs. Yeah, no, like drugs, bad stuff, sex. Right, did
Speaker 2: you read go ask Galis? Yes, you know that's not real? Yes, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I just found that out with like this article that
Speaker 1: came out about how that was like a Mormon like
Speaker 1: propaganda or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we should have known because it was too intense,
Speaker 2: Like it was like, this is not real.
Speaker 3: I mean, we do no intense things happen to people.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that book.
Speaker 1: Was like the the secret book to read in school,
Speaker 1: like check it out, but like it was like so
Speaker 1: scandalous to read it.
Speaker 3: I remember that. So in two thousand.
Speaker 1: And five, finally JT was exposed as being Laura. A
Speaker 1: couple of reporters like basically wrote big stories about it
Speaker 1: and were like, this is not this person doesn't exist,
Speaker 1: it's this woman. And she later said that she used
Speaker 1: the persona of JT as quote unquote a veil to
Speaker 1: protect herself and from her own past about like evolving
Speaker 1: sex work and violence. And she said it was like
Speaker 1: a survival mechanism. And she did tell interview magazine quote,
Speaker 1: you know, JT. Leroy does not exist, but he lives.
Speaker 1: That's what a famous film historian once said about bugs
Speaker 1: Bunny end quote.
Speaker 3: So I don't know what's going on, but she.
Speaker 1: Did lose the movie deal because they said it was fraudulent,
Speaker 1: so the movie never got made. And in two thousand
Speaker 1: and eight, Savannah Noop, which I'm obsessed with this last name,
Speaker 1: it's Knop Noop. Savannah Noop published a memoir called Girl
Speaker 1: Boy Girl, How I Became J. T Leroy about the
Speaker 1: six years she spent impersonating jt Leroy. There was a
Speaker 1: movie called jt Leroy where Laura Dern played Laura Albert
Speaker 1: and Kristin Stewart played Savannah and it came out in
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, and I guess nobody really cared. I've never
Speaker 1: heard of it, and those are two pretty big stars
Speaker 1: for twenty nineteen. Maybe I don't know what happened, but
Speaker 1: it came out and it got like fifty percent on
Speaker 1: Rotten Tomatoes, like it didn't totally bomb, but it didn't
Speaker 1: do well either, Like it's so strange. I saw like
Speaker 1: a whole cover of it, and maybe I'd be interested
Speaker 1: in watching it now. But it was like a big
Speaker 1: thing in the literary world. Some people thought it was
Speaker 1: cool that she like hacked the literary like system of
Speaker 1: like the literary world and all the literati bullshit, and
Speaker 1: then other people were like it was a hoax.
Speaker 2: Do you remember that guy who went on Oprah and
Speaker 2: lied like yeah million little pieces.
Speaker 3: Yeah that was huge too, another literary hoax.
Speaker 1: So now the Edelman Brothers are based on a very
Speaker 1: famous set of brothers. I did not know about these people,
Speaker 1: but they're called the Collier Others. Their names were Homer
Speaker 1: and Langley, two very eccentric brothers who lived together basically
Speaker 1: as hermits in Harlem and were like og horders, like
Speaker 1: just like this episode. Their brownstone was at two zero
Speaker 1: seven eight Fifth Avenue, which is at Fifth Avenue and
Speaker 1: twenty eighth Street, and was filled with like books, furniture,
Speaker 1: musical instruments.
Speaker 3: They found fourteen.
Speaker 1: Pianos when they finally went in there, like just tons
Speaker 1: and tons of crap, just like what they show in
Speaker 1: the episode. They also set up booby traps, like I
Speaker 1: assumed in the episode that Carriesie just kind of like
Speaker 1: fell against a bookshelf or something just fell over on him,
Speaker 1: that these are actually booby traps that these guys set
Speaker 1: to stop anyone who broke in, intruders, invaders, anything like that.
Speaker 1: So it's it's a wild, a wild story, these these
Speaker 1: two guys. So to give a little bit of their background,
Speaker 1: their parents were first cousins. Yikes, never going to be great,
Speaker 1: and then after their mother's death, it seems like they
Speaker 1: really love their mother the same way that these guys do.
Speaker 1: The brothers inherited the Brownstone and they lived in it together.
Speaker 1: They had a pretty normal life. They both taught Sunday school.
Speaker 1: Homer was a lawyer and Langley was a piano dealer
Speaker 1: because he actually used to be a concert pianist and
Speaker 1: even played at Carnegie Hall. But then another guy named Padrewski.
Speaker 1: His name is Ignaci Johan Padrewski, who was a huge
Speaker 1: Polish piano player and later became the Prime Minister of Poland.
Speaker 1: Apparently he was getting better reviews than Langley at Carnegie Hall,
Speaker 1: so Langley just quit playing piano. He was like, wow,
Speaker 1: he's better than me, so what's the point. So these
Speaker 1: guys are eccentric, but.
Speaker 3: They still went out.
Speaker 1: At this point, they had started to slightly withdraw due
Speaker 1: to the changing demographics of the neighborhood. I eat, black
Speaker 1: people moving in. The Harlem started to become like a
Speaker 1: black community, and so these guys were low key racists,
Speaker 1: high key racists. They just started to not go out
Speaker 1: as much and withdraw a little bit from community life,
Speaker 1: and then Homer had some kind of health of I
Speaker 1: would read in some places that it was a stroke,
Speaker 1: other that it was like a hemorrhage, but he lost
Speaker 1: his eyesight, and Langley then quit his job to take
Speaker 1: care of his brother full time, and their shut in
Speaker 1: lifestyle truly began.
Speaker 3: And then they became sort.
Speaker 1: Of like NYC folklore, And so people would hear about
Speaker 1: these eccentric brothers and they would come and gawk at them,
Speaker 1: like people would stand around the house and try to
Speaker 1: get a look, and that made the brothers become even
Speaker 1: more paranoid, Like kids would throw rocks through their windows,
Speaker 1: so then they'd board up their windows. People tried to
Speaker 1: rob them, so then they set up all these booby traps.
Speaker 1: So it's like everything that people did also push them
Speaker 1: further and further into this like seclusion that they were in.
Speaker 1: So Langley, you don't get the feeling that it was
Speaker 1: like the same cattiness as these two brothers, that they
Speaker 1: were fighting each other all the time, Like Langley was
Speaker 1: apparently very protective of Homer and would never let anyone
Speaker 1: see or speak to him, like they would never take
Speaker 1: home or to a doctor. They did not trust doctors,
Speaker 1: even though their father was a gynecologist. They said they
Speaker 1: knew too much about medicine to trust doctors, so never
Speaker 1: went to a doctor. And Langley thought he could cure
Speaker 1: Homer with diet and rest. So he would feed Homer
Speaker 1: a diet of one hundred oranges a week, black bread,
Speaker 1: which I googled and I think it's just rye bread,
Speaker 1: and then butt peanut butter. And he swore that this
Speaker 1: diet was the cure, but big shock, it was not.
Speaker 1: Homer got sicker. He eventually became paralyzed by rheumatism. So
Speaker 1: now the New York Times publishes an article that erroneously
Speaker 1: claims that they had turned down an offer for one
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five thousand dollars for the Brownstone, which
Speaker 1: at the if you were to think about it in
Speaker 1: today's money, would be over a million dollars, And that
Speaker 1: just wasn't true. This article also implied that the brothers
Speaker 1: had some kind of secret fortune, which was also false,
Speaker 1: and this helped add to like people gawking and showing
Speaker 1: up at their house.
Speaker 3: Was this New York Times article.
Speaker 1: Eventually, in nineteen thirty seven, their phone was disconnected and
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty eighth or electricity and water was cut off,
Speaker 1: so they heeded their house with a kerosee heater. Langley
Speaker 1: would go get their water from a pump in a
Speaker 1: nearby park, and since he was an engineer, Langley Jerry
Speaker 1: rigged a Model t Ford to be their generator for electricity.
Speaker 1: So these guys are like running a car inside their
Speaker 1: house to make electricity.
Speaker 3: Like it's truly wild. Pre isn't that bad like exhaust
Speaker 3: fumes indoors? Sure?
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, I'm sure it was like horrible, especially
Speaker 1: because like exhaust fumes with on a Model t Ford
Speaker 1: are probably worse than they are now where there's like,
Speaker 1: you know, different filters and shit. But they lived like
Speaker 1: this for almost a decade. Like they lived like this
Speaker 1: throughout the end of the thirties, halfway into the forties.
Speaker 1: And then in nineteen forty seven, the police get an
Speaker 1: anonymous call that there's a dead body in the house.
Speaker 1: They said they could smell something decomposing, so the police
Speaker 1: sent someone over. They police couldnot even get into the.
Speaker 3: House because there was so much shit, you know.
Speaker 1: So after five hours of like digging through all this stuff,
Speaker 1: they do find Homer's body. Surrounded by boxes of stuff,
Speaker 1: stacks of newspaper, all every things, reaches up to the
Speaker 1: ceiling like it's wild and he has been dead for
Speaker 1: ten hours. So that's weird because that wouldn't be that
Speaker 1: wouldn't have a smell yet.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: His cause of death was starvation and heart disease. So
Speaker 1: now a lot of people assumed that Langley had called
Speaker 1: in the tip and then like busted ass out of town.
Speaker 1: But people got suspicious when he didn't show up to
Speaker 1: his brother's funeral because they were super close and he
Speaker 1: would have showed up. So then they go back into
Speaker 1: the house on April eighth, this is like two weeks later,
Speaker 1: and they find Langley's body ten feet away from where
Speaker 1: they found Homer.
Speaker 3: He was in a tunnel that he had built. It
Speaker 3: was one of the.
Speaker 1: Booby traps and it was surrounded with rusty bedsprings inside
Speaker 1: the tunnel, but he had somehow set off the booby
Speaker 1: trap and he'd been crushed. So he died actually on
Speaker 1: March ninth. They didn't find his body for a month
Speaker 1: and so he died. His cause of death was asphyxiation,
Speaker 1: and his brother couldn't survive without him. He was the
Speaker 1: one that brought him food and did everything for him.
Speaker 1: So eleven days after his brother died.
Speaker 3: Homer died.
Speaker 1: And then so it was actually Langley's body that was
Speaker 1: the smell and had it had been getting eaten by rats.
Speaker 3: And so it was like really gross, but so sad like.
Speaker 1: And I wonder if Homer just died thinking that his
Speaker 1: brother abandoned him or like what he'd like what happened,
Speaker 1: you know, But these two sad agoraphobic racists were just
Speaker 1: trapped in their house and surrounded by all their crap.
Speaker 1: So anyway, a year after they were found, the house
Speaker 1: was demolished and the property is now a pocket park,
Speaker 1: which is named after the brothers. In two thousand and two,
Speaker 1: the Harlem Fifth Avenue Block Association wanted to change the
Speaker 1: name of the park because they're like, what did the
Speaker 1: Collier brothers ever do for Harlem? And Parks Commissioner Adrian
Speaker 1: Benepe said, quote, sometimes history is written by accident, so
Speaker 1: there are some historic names that are not necessarily celebrated.
Speaker 1: Not all history is pretty, and many New York children
Speaker 1: were admonished by their parents to clean their room quote,
Speaker 1: or else you'll end up like the Collier brothers end quote.
Speaker 1: So I guess they're always going to be a huge
Speaker 1: part of New York City lore. And then side note,
Speaker 1: I did look up like hoarding. I really wanted to know,
Speaker 1: like what's the cause of? Like they actually have not
Speaker 1: determined the cause of hoarding, And it wasn't actually until
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen that compulsive hoarding was even defined as a
Speaker 1: mental disorder, and psychologists apparently still cannot decide whether it
Speaker 1: is a manifestation of another commission condition like OCD or
Speaker 1: another disorder that would have you know, hoarding as a
Speaker 1: side symptom, or if it's its own disorder. But it
Speaker 1: is estimated that two to five percent of adults suffer
Speaker 1: from hoarding.
Speaker 2: So wait, so when the brother didn't show up to
Speaker 2: the funeral, it's because he was dead in the house.
Speaker 3: Yes, got it.
Speaker 1: They thought he had just but they he was ten
Speaker 1: feet away from where they found the other body, but
Speaker 1: they just couldn't see him because there's so much crap
Speaker 1: in the house. So when they finally got them out
Speaker 1: of the house, I should mention they removed one hundred
Speaker 1: and forty tons of stuff. So that's eighty thousand pounds,
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 3: That's yeah, I don't know about mad when they had
Speaker 3: just imagining how many elephants it would be when I
Speaker 3: heard so many. When I hear elephants, so do I actually,
Speaker 3: But yeah, they didn't really commit crimes.
Speaker 1: No, but these guys are based on them, but they
Speaker 1: I think they wanted to do something about these guys,
Speaker 1: and then they did the dead mom thing because these
Speaker 1: guys did love their mom, and it does seem like
Speaker 1: after their mother died is when they sort of descended
Speaker 1: more into madness. Yeah, but then I think they they
Speaker 1: needed to have there be some kind of hook to
Speaker 1: get these guys, you know.
Speaker 3: And their names are so old timey. This is such
Speaker 3: a interesting, wild old timey thing.
Speaker 1: Homer and Langley Collier, yeah and so and apparently apparently
Speaker 1: firemen when they go into houses that are like filled
Speaker 1: with crap, like hoarderhouses, they say, oh, it's like a
Speaker 1: Collier mansion. Like it's like a thing that they say. So,
Speaker 1: these guys went down in history and then they got played.
Speaker 1: They got played as the Eaedelman brothers by two legends.
Speaker 1: So that's that, and we've got a great guest and
Speaker 1: we'll be right back. Okay, guys, I am really pumped
Speaker 1: for today's guests. He is an actor, a teacher of
Speaker 1: the art of acting, an author, and an all around
Speaker 1: theater guru. He is best known for his roles in
Speaker 1: The Wire, Billions and The Deuce, but if you watch
Speaker 1: us for you you know him as the slightly slimy
Speaker 1: Evan Brawn and.
Speaker 3: You're gonna love it.
Speaker 1: We got to talk to the very talented Michael Kostrof.
Speaker 3: All right, Michael, thank you so much for today.
Speaker 4: What pleasure.
Speaker 2: I'm shocked he're in LA. To be honest, why is
Speaker 2: that you? Just because of SVU theater? I just assumed
Speaker 2: you were a New York guy.
Speaker 4: I do my best to confuse people about where I live.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Michael, a local higher anywhere really pretty much.
Speaker 4: And also every couple of years, I get itchy and
Speaker 4: I changed locations just because you know, so, Yeah, I've
Speaker 4: I've lived both places and I am currently in LA.
Speaker 1: But are you a native New Yorker? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you have that vibe and so like as a native
Speaker 1: new Yorker. We've talked to some other Native new Yorkers
Speaker 1: on the podcast, like is it always like the dream
Speaker 1: to get Law and Order? And like so you can
Speaker 1: perform in your own town and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: such a classic.
Speaker 4: Oh god, this answer is going to sound so dickish,
Speaker 4: but I okay, I'm just gonna say it's it's early
Speaker 4: and I'm not editing because I'm you know, drinking my coffee.
Speaker 4: I had enough of a TV sort of career going
Speaker 4: that it wasn't like the big thing to bring that.
Speaker 1: Bell because it wasn't your first thing like it is
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, right.
Speaker 4: I was really I'm always just glad to be working.
Speaker 4: You know, I'm pretty pretty easy to please. And I
Speaker 4: you know what's been lovely is how many times they've
Speaker 4: had me back. My wife and I counted recently, it's
Speaker 4: like like eight or nine episodes, which is amazing. Were
Speaker 4: like it's like probably four or five. No, they keep
Speaker 4: having me back. And I love working on the shows.
Speaker 4: It's a really really great set. It's a great vibe.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I can't say enough about Mrs Garcite.
Speaker 4: I probably will expound as we call up, but she's
Speaker 4: so so great to work with and funny. What people
Speaker 4: don't know is how funny she is.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you're our ninety ninth guest, I think,
Speaker 1: and every single person pretty much is like, she's the
Speaker 1: best person I've ever met in my life. So we're like,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe one hundred will be like Na not for me,
Speaker 1: but I don't like her so.
Speaker 4: Well. She messes with me because I mean she sort
Speaker 4: of caught on that she could that she could fuck
Speaker 4: around with me, and so so there's always something, you know,
Speaker 4: when she met my wife and step kids, she said,
Speaker 4: I'm so sorry, oh my god, you must have gone.
Speaker 4: Or she's just very fair. But yeah, so that's why,
Speaker 4: very very much too long winded answer to your first question,
Speaker 4: which is, no, it wasn't like I gotta ring that bell.
Speaker 4: It was you know, it was just a great job.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just a great job, which is nice in itself.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I was just gonna say they had you on
Speaker 1: the first episode is Russian Brides in twenty eleven, where
Speaker 1: you're kind of like a tax attorney doing a friend
Speaker 1: of favor and then suddenly they bring you back three
Speaker 1: years later and you become one of the most most
Speaker 1: like notorious, like smarmy das that we have in the
Speaker 1: later seasons, like yeah, we we have like a bunch
Speaker 1: of guys throughout. I'm sure you know the actors like
Speaker 1: David Thornton and Delaney Williams, like they are both these
Speaker 1: defense attorneys on the show that are like you see
Speaker 1: them and you're like, oh, they're getting hired by rich people.
Speaker 3: They did it.
Speaker 1: They're trying to get off, and you feel like you're
Speaker 1: like the next in that pantheon of guys.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, they only bring me on to defend terrible people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but like it's just funny because I was looking
Speaker 1: at Yeah, I was watching Russian Brides, I go, he
Speaker 1: was like an nice guy in the first one.
Speaker 4: It was a different character, different name. It's the only
Speaker 4: show where they do that.
Speaker 1: Oh they have it in IMDb. Is Evan Maybe that's
Speaker 1: a mistake.
Speaker 4: Lies, Oh it's a lie. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I
Speaker 4: had a different name. I'm almost positive. It's the only
Speaker 4: show where they where they that I know of, where
Speaker 4: they'll bring somebody back as a different character.
Speaker 1: Well, well, then somebody needs to edit the wikiped the
Speaker 1: Law and Order fandom because Evan Brawn's bio it says
Speaker 1: he starts as a tax attorney and then it comes.
Speaker 4: You know what, they are probably more right than I am.
Speaker 4: I think there's a better chance that they know better
Speaker 4: than I do because I don't. I don't track.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we get off on finding mistakes and things.
Speaker 2: So we also got kind of I just got it excited.
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, we could tell them that they.
Speaker 4: Want, I mean, we should. I don't know how to
Speaker 4: look that up exactly.
Speaker 1: I know, I don't know how to figure it out
Speaker 1: unless we go about we can watch the episode.
Speaker 3: See if they say your name, you go.
Speaker 4: Watch the episode. Yeah. But but yeah, I was very
Speaker 4: very nice and completely inapt. And then I think probably
Speaker 4: somebody watched the wire and went, hey, bring him back,
Speaker 4: got it? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Johnny D? Was he so tall? I don't know that.
Speaker 4: Super tall? Super tall? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Johnny D.
Speaker 1: The guy that that is Benson's child's biological father and
Speaker 1: a sex trafficking murderer.
Speaker 4: Well, and that's the only way I get any work. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean, either somebody's trying to convert somebody through rape
Speaker 4: or bury their mother in a freezer or something. You know,
Speaker 4: it's like one of those things has to happen.
Speaker 1: Well, and you have to have a little bit of money.
Speaker 1: Evan Brown doesn't come cheap, right o. Yeah, he's he's
Speaker 1: either on retainer or.
Speaker 2: He's got a hefty But how did these hoarders afford him?
Speaker 3: That's wild. Maybe they have that's interesting.
Speaker 4: Good question, And maybe the case was just sick enough
Speaker 4: that I did at Pro Bowl. I don't know. This
Speaker 4: is a wonderful thing about being an actor. I don't
Speaker 4: have to know a damn thing. I don't know anything.
Speaker 4: Tell me what to say and where to stand, and
Speaker 4: I do it. And I it a million years ago
Speaker 4: when I was on West Wing and my character was
Speaker 4: talking about some particular feature of the US Code, and
Speaker 4: I said to the writer. The writer was very sweet
Speaker 4: and he was befriending me. I said, I never knew
Speaker 4: about that. He goes, I made it up. He's like,
Speaker 4: this is not a history book. Man. Don't you can't
Speaker 4: trust West Wing to give you facts about how the
Speaker 4: government works?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I said.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, people do trust law in order for facts about
Speaker 1: the law and order system.
Speaker 4: Of course they do. I had a lawyer friend, and
Speaker 4: I used to call her to work on my wirescripts,
Speaker 4: and she'd go, you can't say that in court.
Speaker 3: So it's yeah, it's that's so funny.
Speaker 4: It's entertainment, friends, It really is yeah.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of lawyer listeners that are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this would never happen, like prosecutors don't go to the
Speaker 1: crime scene, like you know, stuff like that. So so
Speaker 1: this episode you got to do like your part is
Speaker 1: you know, you're defending these two Alta conkers. I guess
Speaker 1: it is the name of the episode, and that's yeah,
Speaker 1: these guys are. And so you get to do this
Speaker 1: big opening argument to the jury, which is like we
Speaker 1: call it an SVU Bingo card moment, like you either
Speaker 1: get carried out of the courtroom screaming, you get to
Speaker 1: do an opening argument. You know, like that's that's pretty
Speaker 1: big for a card.
Speaker 3: We should make it. We just talk about it, but
Speaker 3: we should make it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it is.
Speaker 2: It was beautifully written and it was just such a
Speaker 2: beautiful scene, and it was, yeah, we loved watching your
Speaker 2: opening arguments.
Speaker 1: In this you had me. I was like, let them go.
Speaker 1: They didn't do anything.
Speaker 4: I loved the gall of standing in front of a
Speaker 4: jury and saying, yes, they put their mother in a
Speaker 4: freezer and that's love. Somehow and somehow, somehow, and I
Speaker 4: said to the director, I said, I don't want to
Speaker 4: pace back and forth. I just want to stand there
Speaker 4: and say this with a straight face, and it's like
Speaker 4: it's insane, insane argument, but it's yeah, so so beautifully written.
Speaker 4: It's like they just wanted to be close to her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean I was arguing it with Lisa when we
Speaker 1: recorded the episode of the podcast. I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't want to be buried, and I guess some
Speaker 1: people have a problem with cremation. So you know, if
Speaker 1: you've got a freezer, if you've got a deep freeze
Speaker 1: and you've got the real estate for it in New York,
Speaker 1: I mean, why not.
Speaker 4: Very strange, very strange world.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us about any other like memorable moments
Speaker 2: you've had on the set or in the courtroom scenes
Speaker 2: or anything.
Speaker 4: Most of my memorable moments have to do with interactions
Speaker 4: with Muska and her just messing with me and I
Speaker 4: can let's see tell us. I'm told she's done this
Speaker 4: to other people where right after they say rolling sound speed,
Speaker 4: she'll look at you and go, let's have an acting contest.
Speaker 4: What are you even talking? I don't know what you're
Speaker 4: talking about. Time every time it's it's something else. And
Speaker 4: I came on the set and she said, Michael, are
Speaker 4: you signing up for my seminar. I'm like, what's semina?
Speaker 4: I have a new acting technique. Will you just say
Speaker 4: the line and then you just don't stop staring at
Speaker 4: the person like this? And then she would just stare
Speaker 4: at me, and she said it's especially good if you
Speaker 4: say things like I don't like pineapple and you just stare.
Speaker 4: I'm like, yes, I'll sign up for that. She said,
Speaker 4: you know, this was one of my favorite exchanges. She said,
Speaker 4: you know, Michael, if you were a good actor, you'd
Speaker 4: figure out a way to get air quotes into your speech.
Speaker 4: And I said, but I'm not, which is why I
Speaker 4: have to do shows like yours. And she's like, well done.
Speaker 4: She's like, well done, well done. And I saw her
Speaker 4: a few days later and she said, Michael, I did it.
Speaker 4: I'm like what. She goes, I put air quotes on
Speaker 4: the scene. I'm like, you didn't do that. Please tell
Speaker 4: me you didn't do that. She goes, yeah, I did it.
Speaker 4: So she's she's I mean, that's just one of a
Speaker 4: few of many, but it's always some craziness, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like if you're going to be like the
Speaker 1: number one on a show for twenty four seasons.
Speaker 3: You got to keep it fun, and it sounds like
Speaker 3: she does that.
Speaker 4: I meant, at the risk of sounding like I'm in
Speaker 4: a cult, I have to say that. You know, she
Speaker 4: jokes around like that, she keeps things light, and then
Speaker 4: when it comes time to do the work, after all
Speaker 4: these years, she is not phoning it in. She's doing
Speaker 4: the work. She's really and sorry if I'm gushy about this,
Speaker 4: but you know it's not. It's not true on every set,
Speaker 4: and I've take take a side less experienced actors and
Speaker 4: really make them comfortable and really say, so, what do
Speaker 4: you think about this scene? How should we work this?
Speaker 4: And really collaborate with people. You know, there was one
Speaker 4: one actor who it was her very first job, and
Speaker 4: the way that risk kind of just took care of
Speaker 4: her and didn't talk down to her, but sort of
Speaker 4: brought her along. You know, there's there's mentorship going on there,
Speaker 4: and yeah, it comes down from the top. Yeah, I
Speaker 4: mean most of my best memories of being on that
Speaker 4: show have to do with that.
Speaker 3: You know, Oh gotcha?
Speaker 2: Was there any singing we heard Raoul likes to maybe
Speaker 2: sing sometimes.
Speaker 4: Well, Rowl and I are both musical theater guys.
Speaker 1: Yes, I saw you're a big Broadway guy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so I think we uh, I don't think.
Speaker 4: I don't think we ever sang together, but I'm sure
Speaker 4: we compared notes. You know, we musical theater people get
Speaker 4: into conversations like who was who was the best? Mama Rose,
Speaker 4: you're completely wrong, and you know we'll break out knives
Speaker 4: and fisticuffs and everything. I mean, you know, we get
Speaker 4: very intense about it. But we became we became friendly.
Speaker 4: We hung out a couple of times, and I like
Speaker 4: him very much. I like him. He's a he's a
Speaker 4: good bloke, that one. I recently published a book called
Speaker 4: the Stage Actor's Handbook because I was shocked to find
Speaker 4: that there's no such thing that has to do with
Speaker 4: the traditions and the protocols and the way, you know,
Speaker 4: the way way professional actors are expected to behave when
Speaker 4: we're working professionally. And we collected quotes from legendary stage performers,
Speaker 4: and Raoul wrote the most gorgeous thing about the responsibility
Speaker 4: of bringing the show every single night. And you know,
Speaker 4: he was one of the people who contributed to the book.
Speaker 4: Really good guy.
Speaker 1: So it's a stage it's a handbook for people who
Speaker 1: are working on the stage or is it for like
Speaker 1: actors when they transition into television and movies and stuff.
Speaker 4: Or no, it's it's for for working and aspiring theater.
Speaker 3: Professional theater actors.
Speaker 4: I have a whole you know, there's a whole culture
Speaker 4: back there there there we have we have just traditions
Speaker 4: and protocols and expressions and superstitions and ways of doing things.
Speaker 4: And it's funny because like theater people, we take our
Speaker 4: superstitions seriously, whether we believe in them or not. Like
Speaker 4: you know, people will freak out if you do the
Speaker 4: wrong thing because it's like you're not supposed to be
Speaker 4: even if we don't believe in it, it's part of
Speaker 4: the fun of the tradition of the culture. So uh yeah,
Speaker 4: so that I just love that. He was like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I'll contribute some thoughts.
Speaker 3: Amazing.
Speaker 1: So the Stage Actor's Handbook it's called by Michael Kostrov.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're gonna.
Speaker 2: Make the I guess biggest mistake you've seen was there
Speaker 2: like a moment that inspired you or like, were you
Speaker 2: ever in a production and you saw something You're like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck?
Speaker 4: So many I mean, there's so many things. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know what happens is you learn most of the
Speaker 4: stuff by screwing up. You know, like once the director leaves,
Speaker 4: the stage manager is authorized to give you notes throughout
Speaker 4: the run of the performance. And I very grandly said, well,
Speaker 4: I only take notes from the director, and somebody pulled
Speaker 4: me assignment. No, no, that's not a thing. I think.
Speaker 4: One of my favorite traditions is something we call TTFN,
Speaker 4: which is take the fucking note. So when we're in
Speaker 4: a group note sessions, we're all tired from rehearsal and
Speaker 4: the director is giving us notes the amateur we'll get
Speaker 4: into a discussion about it with the director and said,
Speaker 4: but I thought I did that and did it, but
Speaker 4: do you mean and we're like, we all want to
Speaker 4: go home. Take the fucking notes. Yeah, thank you, write
Speaker 4: it down, talk to him about it later.
Speaker 1: But I do think it's it's awesome that you wrote
Speaker 1: that book, because I think that in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: in not just theater, but in other creative pursuits or
Speaker 1: other industries, everyone's just like, just get out there, make
Speaker 1: your mistakes and learn, and like, no one wants to
Speaker 1: tell you the little secrets. No one wants to tell
Speaker 1: you the backstage, and it's not like these people are
Speaker 1: going to read your book and be like, no, I'm
Speaker 1: a perfectly professional actor. But like, you know, it's nice
Speaker 1: to share information. I find a lot of times people, Yeah,
Speaker 1: people just keep information to themselves because I don't know.
Speaker 3: They want everyone to let learn it.
Speaker 2: Because we do stand up comedy and so yeah, like
Speaker 2: you're supposed to move the MIC's stand right behind you,
Speaker 2: and so when you see someone with the MIC's stand
Speaker 2: out moved, you immediately know that they're like younger because
Speaker 2: it's distracting and you got to do it. It's something
Speaker 2: little and yeah you should tell people that, but kind
Speaker 2: to learn it.
Speaker 3: So there's all this little stuff.
Speaker 4: We have on set protocols. Also, I was working the
Speaker 4: other day and I saw a guest actress ask the
Speaker 4: one of the leads to take a picture with her.
Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, nope, amateur move. You don't do that.
Speaker 4: It's not cool, you know.
Speaker 1: But I social media now though, well, I feel Marishka does.
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of the people.
Speaker 4: Think probably does. She's very gracious about it. But you know,
Speaker 4: my feeling as a guest actor is this, I want
Speaker 4: to help protect the bubble, meaning meaning the leads are
Speaker 4: at work. They don't want to have to be on
Speaker 4: celebrity duty. You know, they don't want to deal with
Speaker 4: you being like, oh my god, it's such an honor
Speaker 4: to meet you. It's like, you know, I like when
Speaker 4: I get recognized, it's really nice. I don't mind, you know,
Speaker 4: in the real world, but if I'm at work, I
Speaker 4: don't want somebody gushy, and you know, I want to
Speaker 4: just do the work. The biggest celebrities I've ever met
Speaker 4: just want to roll up their sleeves and do the work.
Speaker 4: When they're at work. They know that if they go
Speaker 4: out in public, they're going to be dealing with people
Speaker 4: being nervous and wanting to meet them and wanting to
Speaker 4: take a picture. But I feel like I want to
Speaker 4: protect their work environment. That's part of my approach to that.
Speaker 4: But yeah, but also, you know, I'm big into rules
Speaker 4: and traditions and I love that stuff, you know, totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because we've also talked to a lot of childs
Speaker 2: after there are people who did it when they were
Speaker 2: kids and their parents want to meet Marishka. So like
Speaker 2: the dads are like, we got to meet Marsha.
Speaker 1: Well, you were in the producers And what what are
Speaker 1: your favorite Broadway shows?
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's so hard to answer that there,
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: That's so crazy. It's like, what's your favorite comedian?
Speaker 2: I also we also like to ask, like, what role
Speaker 2: are you so yeah to do?
Speaker 3: Dream role Broadway?
Speaker 4: I mean, the top of the list is Sweeney Todd.
Speaker 4: I think that's one of the best musicals ever. I
Speaker 4: love I love the obscure ones that people don't know
Speaker 4: about that are great. There's a great musical called Triumph
Speaker 4: of Love. That's one of my favorites. I love Evita.
Speaker 4: I love I mean different ones for different reasons. You know.
Speaker 4: Some of them are just just fun and silly.
Speaker 3: My husband loves the musical Assassins. Do you know that one?
Speaker 4: I don't know it as well as I should because
Speaker 4: I love Stephen Sondheim.
Speaker 3: He loves Assassins. Oh my god.
Speaker 4: I love Pacific Overtores, which nobody really talks about much,
Speaker 4: you know, all Asian casts written by Sondheim. It's brilliant.
Speaker 4: So anyway, you know, I'm nerding out here, but dream rolls.
Speaker 4: I you know. I always say that what I love
Speaker 4: best about my career is the variety. So the fact
Speaker 4: that I get to keep doing different things is it's
Speaker 4: more prominent than any particular dream role. I will say
Speaker 4: that I did two of the ones that were on
Speaker 4: my list a couple of years back. I finally did
Speaker 4: Mushnik in Little chop Hers and I did Edna in
Speaker 4: in Hairspray, and those yeah, I loved. I loved doing
Speaker 4: both of those. That were great.
Speaker 3: I would have loved to see that. Wow, that's fair.
Speaker 4: It was really it was really really pretty cool. I mean,
Speaker 4: you know, once you get past yeah, man in Address
Speaker 4: is always going to be funny, but there's also some
Speaker 4: deep stuff in there, you know, in Hairspray, stuff about race,
Speaker 4: stuff about body image. It's a it's a really good
Speaker 4: good show.
Speaker 3: So yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2: Well, and you mentioned in Law and Order people get
Speaker 2: to come back all the time, and we do love
Speaker 2: Evan Brawn evil da Would you ever want to come
Speaker 2: back as like a killer?
Speaker 4: Oh? Interesting? I think if I were, If I could
Speaker 4: come back on Law and Order on SVU as a
Speaker 4: different character, I'd want to be like the kindest, most
Speaker 4: lovely person ever. Because it's so rare that I get
Speaker 4: to play anyone with a soul, Because you know, it's
Speaker 4: not just law and order. I mostly play these ice
Speaker 4: cold attorneys. That's like my bread and butter. So it's
Speaker 4: really cool when I get to do something different and
Speaker 4: people who know me laugh because I mean, I'm a
Speaker 4: puppy dog.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: When we interviewed Delaney Williams, the same thing, we were like,
Speaker 1: your face comes on screen and people like get mad immediately,
Speaker 1: and he was the nicest man to talk to and
Speaker 1: such a sweetheart. And I'm sure that's true of like
Speaker 1: everybody that plays these kind of blindballs.
Speaker 4: I think so. And also like Mike, I'm a musical
Speaker 4: comedy guy, Like I'm the funny guy who sings a
Speaker 4: song and I'll see at the curtain call. But you know, so,
Speaker 4: it's one of the great things about being an actor
Speaker 4: is like you don't know where it's going to take you.
Speaker 4: You don't know how people are going to want to
Speaker 4: cast you. And I love that I get to put
Speaker 4: on this mask and people buy it, Like you know,
Speaker 4: wire fans will come up to me with a huge
Speaker 4: smile and say, I hate you so much. Oh yeah,
Speaker 4: you know it, which is great. It's honestly, no kidding.
Speaker 4: It's a compliment. You know, I'll tell you my favorite
Speaker 4: story about being recognized.
Speaker 3: Please.
Speaker 4: So I'm walking along, you know, my Upper West Side neighborhood,
Speaker 4: and this woman from con from Connad, you know, the
Speaker 4: power company.
Speaker 5: She says hey, I said hey. She goes, you're the
Speaker 5: lawyer from the wire. I said, yes, yes I am.
Speaker 5: And she goes, oh, wow, are you really a lawyer.
Speaker 5: I said no, no, just an actor. And she says,
Speaker 5: oh damn, I really need a lawyer. And that was
Speaker 5: the end of that conversation.
Speaker 1: She thought she really lucked into some free legal advice
Speaker 1: on the street.
Speaker 2: Wait and are you Are you always teaching acting classes?
Speaker 2: And is it independent or with a place?
Speaker 4: It's independent. I do two of them online and one
Speaker 4: of them in person in LA and it's a it's
Speaker 4: a it's a tight list, you know. It's it's not
Speaker 4: not snotty, but just just sort of like, yes, which
Speaker 4: we're professional actors, but I love doing it. It's it's
Speaker 4: it's I just love actors, you know, like it's a
Speaker 4: it's a joy to work with them. So it's you know,
Speaker 4: whether it's coaching, directing, teaching acting, all that stuff, it's
Speaker 4: just working with them honest. For you know it's it's
Speaker 4: I just really dig my tribe as I put it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let me ask you this because I paid
Speaker 1: for coaching one time, and this just happened to me yesterday.
Speaker 1: Actually too, I paid for coaching one time and I
Speaker 1: did this whole session and then I go in and
Speaker 1: what they tell me in the audition is like the
Speaker 1: opposite of what this coach has told me.
Speaker 3: Like it's the opposite.
Speaker 1: They're like, you know, you want to play it this way,
Speaker 1: blah blah, and I'm like okay, and then you just
Speaker 1: have to like readjust on the fly to everything you
Speaker 1: just paid someone to help you work on. It's like
Speaker 1: so like yesterday I read an audition to my husband
Speaker 1: and he goes, well, this is Disney, so I think
Speaker 1: you got to kind of play it like like pretty
Speaker 1: like uh, you know, like over the top a little bit.
Speaker 1: And then I get on the audition and she goes,
Speaker 1: I know it's Disney, but it's like not over the top.
Speaker 3: It's very ground.
Speaker 1: And I was like, everybody I asked to help me
Speaker 1: tells me the wrong thing.
Speaker 4: Well, okay, so I'll say this. I don't think coaches
Speaker 4: should be tasked with being psychic.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: What I try to do with the actor is is
Speaker 4: some detective work together. What do you think about this?
Speaker 4: Why do you think? You say this? What do you
Speaker 4: think is going on? And sort of unpack it together?
Speaker 4: There is and I've said I can't tell you how
Speaker 4: many times. Look, if this idea doesn't land with you,
Speaker 4: I want you to not do it. I want I
Speaker 4: want to hear back from you if you go, yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't see it that way, because you're the artist
Speaker 4: who's doing the work. But also it's it's perfectly possible.
Speaker 4: We've all had the experience that you get in there
Speaker 4: and they give you an adjustment. What what what actors
Speaker 4: are always afraid to do that they should do is
Speaker 4: say I love that. I'm going to step outside and
Speaker 4: work on this for a minute because it's very different,
Speaker 4: and I'll come back, you know, because we're all so
Speaker 4: scared and it's.
Speaker 3: Like I would never think I could do that.
Speaker 4: Who who wouldn't respect that?
Speaker 3: You know, well that's a power move. Wow, of course.
Speaker 4: And it's not you know, it's not snotty, it's not
Speaker 4: you know, but you know, and if you have a
Speaker 4: cast in director says no, just do it, it's like,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm going to step out because it's it's
Speaker 4: it's I want to really make sure that I hit
Speaker 4: what you asked me to do in a respectful, nice way.
Speaker 4: But we don't take up any space, you know, and
Speaker 4: I and I feel like that's there's that option. And
Speaker 4: also you know, god, you know, I teach a course
Speaker 4: called Audition Psycho one oh one that's about the psychology
Speaker 4: of auditioning because so much of this is psychological, like
Speaker 4: like a lot of this is the interpretation of, oh fuck,
Speaker 4: I've got this adjustment and it's a test. Now instead
Speaker 4: of going, oh, interesting, let me try that as an artist,
Speaker 4: that might be kind of cool. All right, let's see
Speaker 4: what we come up with. And it's really so much
Speaker 4: in the framing and how you interpret what has happened.
Speaker 4: You know, like some of us go, oh, it's a trick.
Speaker 4: They're trying to fuck with me. It's like none of
Speaker 4: that stuff is going on. It's all interpretation. So now
Speaker 4: when I get I think of it like a little
Speaker 4: collaboration acting class. If somebody's like I think it needs
Speaker 4: to be angry, and I'll go, huh okay, let me
Speaker 4: try that. Let's see where we go. With that as
Speaker 4: opposed to now I got to deliver, you know, And
Speaker 4: I think it's okay. I think if if you spent
Speaker 4: time working on the scene and landed on different conclusions,
Speaker 4: it's okay, you've got you still got the exploration under
Speaker 4: your belt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you got I'm sure throughout your experience. I
Speaker 2: hate mean casting directors. Oh yeah, there's like these incredible
Speaker 2: ones and I love them so much, and then there's
Speaker 2: somewhere I'm like, can you make me feel more like shit?
Speaker 4: Listen. I'm very big on the dignity of actors, and
Speaker 4: I believe in something I call gracious strength. This is
Speaker 4: what I came up with after working with a bunch
Speaker 4: of famous actors. I'm like, what is it about them?
Speaker 4: You wouldn't fuck with them? And also they're the nicest
Speaker 4: people in the world. Gracious strength, or my version of that,
Speaker 4: is what would Judy Dench do? So I feel like
Speaker 4: if Judy Dench had a really nasty casting director, she said,
Speaker 4: you know, I really don't let people speak to me
Speaker 4: this way. So I'm going to go. I'm going to go,
Speaker 4: and I'm going to wish you well with your casting,
Speaker 4: but I'm just not interested. Thank you. So much, and
Speaker 4: I feel like I have within me the option of
Speaker 4: doing that, of saying, you know, I think this is
Speaker 4: not going to work out. So I'm going to go
Speaker 4: because I don't need to have anybody speak to me
Speaker 4: that way, and I don't need to teach them not
Speaker 4: to speak to me that way, and I don't need
Speaker 4: to be in dignant. But I sure has held I listen.
Speaker 4: Like most actors, my self esteem is not so great.
Speaker 4: I don't need help taking it down. I really don't.
Speaker 4: I really don't. So I think what we're doing wrong
Speaker 4: is is tolerating that. Yeah, why do we think it's
Speaker 4: going to lead to getting a job or people respecting us? No,
Speaker 4: it doesn't. It's not like if I let you abuse me,
Speaker 4: you're going to cast me. No, I think they're more
Speaker 4: likely to think of you as a respectable contender if
Speaker 4: you say, yeah, you know, the tone is not not
Speaker 4: good for me. I'm going to need to go. You know.
Speaker 4: I'll be happy to take your notes, but I don't
Speaker 4: need the attitude. Yeah, Oh my god, what would happen?
Speaker 4: What would happen?
Speaker 1: I love that ww jd D. What would Judy Dench do?
Speaker 4: Try it? Try it? What would Judy Dench. Do I
Speaker 4: think I think she would be really nice about it?
Speaker 4: She says, I'm getting some hostility, but I'm interested in
Speaker 4: your note. What explained I me, I have to understand
Speaker 4: the note.
Speaker 3: You're like teaching power moves and acting.
Speaker 4: I know I had to because I come from such
Speaker 4: a damage, fucked up childhood. This has been like a
Speaker 4: lifetime of therapy. But it's like it's I have to
Speaker 4: protect all that stuff because otherwise I'd be like I'll
Speaker 4: be on you know, sleeping under my couch for a week,
Speaker 4: you know, drinking and crying.
Speaker 1: Well, do you have anything like coming up that you
Speaker 1: want our listeners to check out something that's coming out soon?
Speaker 1: Or I'm sure they're going to have you back on
Speaker 1: SVU soon they will.
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I'm not much of a promoter.
Speaker 4: It's like people find me or they don't. But I mean,
Speaker 4: I just filmed an NCIS where I was not a lawyer.
Speaker 4: It was very exciting. I loved the role. I don't
Speaker 4: know when. It's on November thirteenth, eleventh, seventeenth, someplace in
Speaker 4: mid November, so that's on. You know, I'm big into
Speaker 4: my book right now, so if they're you know, aspiring
Speaker 4: or working professional stage actors out there. Yeah, the Stage
Speaker 4: Actor's Handbook. You can get it Drama Bookshop in New York.
Speaker 4: I love supporting the actual physical independent bookshops. Yes, I
Speaker 4: don't know, I got stuff.
Speaker 1: I got stuff, amazing, amazing, booked and blessed, as we.
Speaker 4: Say, yes, booked and blessed, obsessed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's cool like you are immediately like I'm getting
Speaker 1: on the list and going to take his actings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like, you know, we get to talk
Speaker 2: to a lot of people who love their work and
Speaker 2: it's a privilege. Yeah, and it's cool sen someone that
Speaker 2: you know likes to sing and wants to help other
Speaker 2: people and advice and cares for shit like I like it.
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Theater traditions are funny. I've remember from high school it
Speaker 2: was just like so much, thank you, thank.
Speaker 3: You, yeah, thank you five. And I still do it
Speaker 3: all the.
Speaker 2: Time, and I wonder if people are like, shut up,
Speaker 2: you dumb bitch, but they really ingrained that well.
Speaker 1: The superstitions are so funny too, because you have so
Speaker 1: many superstitions as a Russian Jew, like I have never
Speaker 1: heard of like your superstitions and.
Speaker 2: I'm a very superstitious person, and I do, and I yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm in tune with that part of I was gonna
Speaker 2: say my universe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but then I was like.
Speaker 2: Or psychosis, like we don't really know, we don't know
Speaker 2: exactly what it is. But you know, I've had like
Speaker 2: kind of a peeing problem m where I'm constantly being NonStop,
Speaker 2: like I can't stop being. I've really like been harnessing
Speaker 2: energy to stop that, and I've really been able to
Speaker 2: like not have to pee constantly.
Speaker 3: And it's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, now I have to pee now immediately now, as
Speaker 1: soon as you say it. Yeah, but on the fly,
Speaker 1: Like I usually I pee six to ten times for
Speaker 1: across country flight and this time only twice. And I
Speaker 1: was like, look at me, Oh my god. Did I
Speaker 1: ever tell you I flew to Hong Kong once and
Speaker 1: never peene. Yeah, it's kind of rude and bragging at
Speaker 1: this point. I'm telling you my struggles that like me
Speaker 1: having a pe has ruined in my life. I think
Speaker 1: I'm dehydrated. Also, I took a sleep pills. I was
Speaker 1: asleep for like ten of those hours.
Speaker 3: Anyway, what did we learn?
Speaker 2: Don't be a fucking hoarder. Don't put dead bodies in
Speaker 2: the fridge. You know, I don't know what to tell you.
Speaker 3: I don't know. The postmortem on this episode is a
Speaker 3: little bit weird. I have a good one.
Speaker 2: Get over grudges, but yeah, I'm in a fight that
Speaker 2: will never end.
Speaker 1: But get don't be in grudges with your siblings too,
Speaker 1: Like Kathy and Kyle. We are watching everything that's going
Speaker 1: on with Kathy Hilton and Kyle.
Speaker 2: H Richards, the way they punish each other with not
Speaker 2: being able to go to each other's kids' weddings, it
Speaker 2: seems so fucked up. Yeah, yeah, I don't like, I
Speaker 2: don't think Kyle did anything that bad.
Speaker 1: And it's like, but here's the thing. I know, we're
Speaker 1: going into a full tangent about the Housewives right now.
Speaker 1: Everybody give us two minutes. Everything the Beverly Hills is
Speaker 1: so hidden. I don't think we like they're not open
Speaker 1: like a lot of other seasons, Like we don't know
Speaker 1: what some of this real shit is. Like maybe Kathy's
Speaker 1: got receipts on Kyle, and I bet fucking kat Kyle
Speaker 1: has receipts on Kathy. Like I think they've both done
Speaker 1: a lot of shit. But I think at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, you got to be like, this is
Speaker 1: my sister. We're going to the weddings, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like I've gotten The only people in my
Speaker 1: life I've ever physically fought are my siblings. The only
Speaker 1: people I ever really scream at are my siblings or Jared.
Speaker 1: You know, like, like I just you got to make
Speaker 1: up with your siblings. They're like, you're you know, it's
Speaker 1: just like your family. Unless listen, if you have like
Speaker 1: a toxic sibling that you've cut out. Okay, that's a
Speaker 1: different story, but like general, fighting with your sibs, it's
Speaker 1: like you can't miss out on big family.
Speaker 3: And no one was perfect.
Speaker 2: But I don't think it's like they're just so mad
Speaker 2: that Kyle puts it out there.
Speaker 3: I guess, yes, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, these two brothers, it feels like, I mean, in
Speaker 1: the real life story, they protected each other till the end,
Speaker 1: they were like thick as thieves. In this one, I
Speaker 1: think they wanted to let these two classic actors have
Speaker 1: a little bit of you know, play off each other
Speaker 1: a little bit. So instead of them loving each other,
Speaker 1: they hated each other. It was like definitely a good
Speaker 1: TV choice but they also had this deep seated secret
Speaker 1: that they never shared with each other, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that they've lost a lot of time with
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, and go out for walks,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. We can always be reminded
Speaker 2: you got to take a walk, but.
Speaker 3: You can go out the walk.
Speaker 1: It's okay to go out for walks and also not
Speaker 1: bring home like broken baby carriages and like you know,
Speaker 1: whatever old piano you find on the street, Like you
Speaker 1: don't have to bring that stuff home. But yeah, hoarding
Speaker 1: is hoarding is real. This episode great set design. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and obviously it feels like the real victim of the
Speaker 1: episode is in the very beginning with the character known
Speaker 1: as Bobby getting murdered, because the rest of it feels
Speaker 1: like the rest of the episode feels like it's all
Speaker 1: kind of victimless, like the mom died and then they
Speaker 1: just like left her in their head.
Speaker 3: I mean, like, yes, they they put her, they euthanize
Speaker 3: their mind essentially. Yeah, yeah, I think there was a willow.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, they euthanized her, but like they like
Speaker 1: the doctor was like she wouldn't have had much longer.
Speaker 3: She was probably in a ton of pain, could barely breathe.
Speaker 1: I think they did what they thought was best for
Speaker 1: their mom and then like leaving her in the freezer,
Speaker 1: you know, eccentric, but of course also always teaching our
Speaker 1: kids to say no secrets with adults and shit like that,
Speaker 1: like what would happen to them two men as when
Speaker 1: they were younger? You know, no secrets, tell people, Tell
Speaker 1: your brother.
Speaker 3: Jeez, Louise.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I'll just segue into what would Sister Peg do?
Speaker 1: Our weekly segment where we direct you to an organization,
Speaker 1: a book, an article, something to help you learn a
Speaker 1: little bit more about what we discussed on today's episode,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to point you to it's kind of
Speaker 1: like it. It's not really an article, but it's like
Speaker 1: a section of the Glad website that's glad as g
Speaker 1: l A A d dot org and they have like
Speaker 1: a there's a link that we will obviously put in
Speaker 1: our show notes and on our Instagram that's just entitled
Speaker 1: the Angie Zapota Murder Colon Violence Against Transgender People Resource Kit,
Speaker 1: and it covers a lot of the timeline of Angie's murder,
Speaker 1: as well as facts and figures on the murders of
Speaker 1: transgendered people across the country, which has truly become an
Speaker 1: epidemic and needs to be you know, ended as soon
Speaker 1: as possible, and it helps. It also helps you decipher
Speaker 1: hate crime laws based on the state you live in,
Speaker 1: and you can check that out in our show notes
Speaker 1: and always all of our what would sister peg dos
Speaker 1: are chronicled in our Instagram story called wwspd.
Speaker 2: How not a transition from the sadness. But you know,
Speaker 2: on we go to another episode and next week we'll
Speaker 2: be doing Paternity season nine, episode nine. Watch with us. Also,
Speaker 2: did you know that the new season's not on Hulu?
Speaker 2: It's only on Peacock now ooh yeah, season twenty four.
Speaker 3: He's only at Peacock know Hulu? And interesting?
Speaker 2: Thank god I stole my friends my friend Julia's Peacock's
Speaker 2: I'm there.
Speaker 3: But yeah, you also had to.
Speaker 1: I watched the first two of the crossover on Hulu
Speaker 1: and then had to go watch the other one on Peacock,
Speaker 1: even though I didn't really finish it. Thanks for listening, guys,
Speaker 1: get tickets for the tour at That's messed Up live
Speaker 1: dot com. We love you, Bye bye.
Speaker 2: That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.
Speaker 1: If you have compliments you'd like to give us or
Speaker 1: episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email
Speaker 1: it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod
Speaker 2: and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us
Speaker 2: personally at Kara Klank and.
Speaker 3: At glitter Cheese.
Speaker 1: As always, please see our show notes for sources and
Speaker 1: more information.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much to our producer KC.
Speaker 1: O'Brien, and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest
Speaker 1: booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme
Speaker 1: song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork.
Speaker 3: Thank you to.
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and
Speaker 1: everybody at Exactly Right Media.
Speaker 3: Dun Dunn