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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And an NBC News poll finds that

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Speaker 1: fifty two percent of voters blame Trump and Republicans in

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Speaker 1: Congress for the ongoing shutdown. Well forty two percent blame

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Speaker 1: Democrats in Congress. We have such a great show for

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Speaker 1: you today. The Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson joins us

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Speaker 1: to discuss Trump's government being unable to keep airports functioning.

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Speaker 1: New York Magazine's own Earin Carmone stops by to talk

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Speaker 1: about her new book Unbearable, Five Women and the perils

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Speaker 1: of pregnancy in America. But first the news, Molly.

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Speaker 2: We have a new poll that shows something that will

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Speaker 2: not be the least bit shocking to you, and I

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Speaker 2: Pew Research is saying that Democrats are frustrated with their

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Speaker 2: party and there's a huge increase in the ones who.

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Speaker 1: Are Honestly, anyone who has talked to a person who

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Speaker 1: is not in the business in the politics business knows

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Speaker 1: that the American people are fucking pissed, and they're pissed

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Speaker 1: of Republicans and they're pissed at Democrats. Now they're more

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Speaker 1: mad at Trump, which is good and is true because

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Speaker 1: Republicans control the House, the Senate, the Presidency, the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But Democrats are also mad,

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Speaker 1: and they're mad at their leadership. And you know this,

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Speaker 1: sixty seven percent of Democrats say they're frustrated with their party,

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Speaker 1: up for about half in Pew polls from twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: one and twenty nineteen. That's because in twenty sixteen, American

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Speaker 1: people felt that the Democrats were doing what they wanted.

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Speaker 1: They were fighting in a way they wanted. Now a

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Speaker 1: lot of Democrats are mad. They feel that they're not

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Speaker 1: getting the kind of fight they want from Democrats. And

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Speaker 1: that's why Chuck Schumer really had to do this shutdown,

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Speaker 1: because his constituents wanted him to shut down the government.

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Speaker 1: And I I think it was really a smart thing

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Speaker 1: to do. I think it actually has got people talking

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Speaker 1: about healthcare. And it was the only thing Democrats could

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Speaker 1: do to get the conversation going about healthcare and to

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Speaker 1: throw some sand in the gears because the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: is just at a breakneck speed taking stuff away from

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Speaker 1: the American people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's said Etaly. New friend of the show

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Speaker 2: Woke Marjorie Taylor Green. She was on Bill Maher this

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Speaker 2: weekend and she was talking about how the Republicans have

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Speaker 2: no plan whatsoever to deal with healthcare and that her party.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like kind of one of those funny things.

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Speaker 2: Is it really seems like she's in this thing where

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Speaker 2: a lot of the like right wing populists are waking

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Speaker 2: up like, oh, this has all been a fucking grift

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Speaker 2: and they've never had any plan for this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, it's so funny because if you think

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Speaker 1: about all of the many times we have dealt with

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Speaker 1: Donald care and healthcare, Like remember during the campaign when

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Speaker 1: he was going to debate against Harris and he was like,

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Speaker 1: I have concepts of a plan, right, Like, you could

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Speaker 1: never get jumped to ever say I have a plan

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Speaker 1: because you know why he doesn't have a plan because

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Speaker 1: healthcare in this country is super expensive and if you

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Speaker 1: don't set standard pricing, then you can't make it cheaper.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't matter what you do. And the problem

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Speaker 1: is to set standard pricing. It's very complicated and you

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Speaker 1: have to make a lot of people really mad. Doctors,

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Speaker 1: insurance companies, medical trial lawyers. I mean, it just will

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Speaker 1: be a big sea change. It's what they do in Europe.

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Speaker 1: But that's the way to do it. But Republicans can't

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Speaker 1: admit that right for obvious reasons. So here's what they say.

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Speaker 1: They say, we have a plan, and our plan is

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Speaker 1: to come up with something better, something better. That sounds good.

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Speaker 1: I like something better. But the problem is they're not

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Speaker 1: going to tell you what it is, because that would

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Speaker 1: mean you'd have to know what it was, and since

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Speaker 1: it's nothing, you will not hear about it. And that

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Speaker 1: is how we got here. Some people say this is

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Speaker 1: one of the stupidest moments in American history, but I

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Speaker 1: don't believe it. I really do, truly believe that things

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Speaker 1: can get stupid.

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Speaker 3: From here A strong agree.

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Speaker 1: I have an enormous faith in my countrymen.

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Speaker 2: Well let me demonstrate that by going there. So one

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Speaker 2: of the things Republicans are doing instead of their jobs

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Speaker 2: are plotting all sorts of things that will make their

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Speaker 2: most racist followers happy. This week, while you and I

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Speaker 2: were on vacation, we unfortunately did not get to discuss

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Speaker 2: that on Piers Morgan's show. Katie Miller, wife of Steven

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Speaker 2: Miller melted down when Jane Kueger challenged her on putting

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Speaker 2: America first instead of israel Ed. She said, the plan

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Speaker 2: that they have which is going to be that they're

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Speaker 2: going to deport elan Omar. And now we have legislation

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Speaker 2: of the House that they want to deport Zora Momdani

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Speaker 2: if he gets elected.

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Speaker 1: Katie Miller is the wife of Stephen Miller. She has

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Speaker 1: overtweezed her eyebrows.

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Speaker 3: Really, I did not notice.

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Speaker 1: I take no pleasure to report that despite being wealthy

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Speaker 1: and powerful, she's somehow nobody has told her the truth

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Speaker 1: about her eyebrows. She is exploring podcasting as a podcaster.

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Speaker 1: I would like to offer this advice. There are so

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Speaker 1: many better things to do with your life. But that said,

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Speaker 1: she has decided that she wants to be in the

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Speaker 1: pundit space, and who am I to dissuade her. They

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Speaker 1: can't deport ilhan Omar. But it's nice to see the

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Speaker 1: people in Congress trying to do anything. The good news

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Speaker 1: is Congress is never coming back, So you can try

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Speaker 1: to deport anyone you want. It's not happening because if

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Speaker 1: you want to deport anyone, you will have to come

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Speaker 1: back and swear in that two hundred and fifty first

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Speaker 1: vote for the discharge petition for the Epstein files. And

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Speaker 1: since Mike Johnson will never do that, you can do

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Speaker 1: whatever you want.

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Speaker 3: So are you sure that's two hundred and fifty one votes.

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Speaker 1: I think it's two hundred and fifty one for the

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Speaker 1: discharge petition, but perhaps my producer Jesse can it will

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Speaker 1: check anyway. The question is you need to swear in

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Speaker 1: Adlita Grihaaleva, whose father got in office, who is waiting

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Speaker 1: to be sworn in, cannot be sworn in by Mike

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Speaker 1: Johnson because if she is sworn in, she will be

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Speaker 1: the two hundred and eighteen signature for the discharge petition,

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Speaker 1: which will then actually do nothing. And this is my

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Speaker 1: favorite part about Mike Johnson. So once they do this

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Speaker 1: discharge petition, it still goes to the Senate and dies anyway.

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Speaker 1: So it's like Mike Johnsen has made things worse for

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Speaker 1: himself for no reason, like just swear it, like it's

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Speaker 1: not going to make any difference.

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Speaker 2: But they don't want to be on record voting for

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Speaker 2: to protect the pedophile cabal.

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Speaker 1: I guess sure that's the logic.

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Speaker 3: I've heard them say on the right side broadcasting network.

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Speaker 1: Right, the best, Everyone's favorite. So the point of this

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Speaker 1: is How's Republicans, the gang that couldn't shoot straight, have

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Speaker 1: a lot of real racist legislation, none of which they

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Speaker 1: can pass because they are a not very smart and

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Speaker 1: be not in sesh. That is not our moment of fuckeray,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly is another moment in our lives, which

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Speaker 1: are filled with fockeray.

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Speaker 2: So speaking of that, Pete Haigsith a man who really

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Speaker 2: is not a free speech warrior because he loves shutting

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Speaker 2: down any speech he hasn't given permission for.

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Speaker 1: But he has a beautiful head of hair.

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Speaker 2: I just saw Azalea Banks saying this on Twitter, and

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Speaker 2: factory really think.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I did see Exanda Banks. Her and I separated

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Speaker 1: at birth.

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Speaker 3: I think of you two as similar souls.

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Speaker 1: Oh, very similar.

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Speaker 2: Heigsith has barred military officials from discussing drug boat strikes

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Speaker 2: with Congress without prior approval.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the five people who still work in the Pentagon

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Speaker 1: press pool, I think it's like a Turkish news network

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Speaker 1: and one American news right, I mean it's like three

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Speaker 1: people because everyone else refused to sign his draconian thing

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Speaker 1: which said you can only ever report on anything if

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Speaker 1: we gave it to you and told you were allowed to. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: the point of this whole story is that now we

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Speaker 1: have a Pentagon, millions of people, billions of dollars, and

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Speaker 1: we don't know what the fuck is happening in there

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Speaker 1: because there's no news there. There's no reporting there. And

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Speaker 1: this is by design. This is so that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: can do stuff which is very likely illegal. And there's

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Speaker 1: a reason they don't want people reporting on those drug boats,

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Speaker 1: and it's because they're not drug boats. They're probably fishing boats.

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Speaker 1: Wick Wilson is the founder of the Lincoln Project and

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Speaker 1: the host of The Enemy's List. Welcome back to fast pologics.

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Speaker 4: Right, well then, probably drunk fast?

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Speaker 1: How are you? Friend?

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Speaker 4: You know what? I am better than I was on Friday?

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Speaker 1: And wow, you know who is even better? Donald J.

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Speaker 4: Trull hit a weekend off, just as we all have,

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Speaker 4: and he's down there in Marlago having a sort of

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Speaker 4: end of the era party to express his understanding and

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Speaker 4: his truly deep connection to the working people of America

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Speaker 4: by having a party with the Pussycat Dolls or whatever

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Speaker 4: the fuck it was.

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Speaker 1: Gats be themeds themed as one does, as one does.

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Speaker 1: But the federal government itself is just moving along smoothly.

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Speaker 1: And no place is that more clear than in the

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Speaker 1: Department of Transportation, which is was once a DEI project

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Speaker 1: but is now run by white men.

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Speaker 4: And you know, all I can say is thank God

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Speaker 4: that we've got the crackerjack team of former reality TV

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Speaker 4: star Sean Duffy and a variety of other window licking

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Speaker 4: morons in charge of the of the of the nation's

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Speaker 4: air traffic control system right now. Because and here's the part,

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Speaker 4: as a pilot, because pilots always like to say that, as.

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Speaker 1: A pilot, so both then you and I are longtime friends,

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Speaker 1: and I have never flown with you.

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Speaker 4: Well I'm gonna make I'm gonna fix that problem.

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Speaker 1: No you won't, right, I do know that you are

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Speaker 1: a very skilled pilot.

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Speaker 4: You know what, I am a safe pilot and I'm

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Speaker 4: a I'm a guy in the instrument pilot safety cult.

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Speaker 4: And if you're a pilot right now flying a big

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Speaker 4: iron aircraft with passengers in it, you have a deep

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Speaker 4: sort of respect for the trust all those people put

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Speaker 4: in you, and you rely on a system that the

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Speaker 4: taxpayers pay for to help you stay safe in the

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Speaker 4: air and to avoid those big metal tubes running into

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Speaker 4: each other in the sky, which is a very bad outcome.

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Speaker 4: And right now it's literally on the backs of individual

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Speaker 4: pilots trying to talk to each other in the air

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Speaker 4: because the air traffic control towers in this country, one

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Speaker 4: after the other, are shutting down right now.

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Speaker 1: Explain to us for why, Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 4: We're in now day twenty nine, stuff like that of

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Speaker 4: a shutdown when it's going to be when we air this,

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Speaker 4: right it's let's call it a month. The air traffic

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Speaker 4: controllers are not getting paychecks. Now you know who is

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Speaker 4: getting paychecks. The masked thug guys jumping out of car's

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Speaker 4: zip tying children, they're getting their full paycheck.

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Speaker 1: People who couldn't necessarily make it into the army or

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Speaker 1: the police.

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Speaker 4: Well look, most of these people couldn't make it into

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Speaker 4: being into the Paul Blart Rental cop Academy.

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Speaker 1: Yes and all bar we would never do this.

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Speaker 4: But long story short, right now we are shutting down

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Speaker 4: the government because Donald Trump cannot have the two hundred

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Speaker 4: and eighteenth person sworn in who would vote to release

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Speaker 4: the Epstein files and because there is a faction inside

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Speaker 4: the White House led by Russell Vatt who believes we

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Speaker 4: need to punish those poor black shirkers by taking away

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Speaker 4: their food. And when I tell you that, I mean

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Speaker 4: that is literally what they are saying inside the White

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Speaker 4: House to one another.

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Speaker 1: And I do want to point out that, like just

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Speaker 1: for two seconds, forty percent of the people on SNAP

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Speaker 1: Supplemental Assistant Food Stamps, thirty nine percent of them are children. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: forty three percent are white. They're not even black, They're white.

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Speaker 1: They're in Red States and their children.

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Speaker 4: But go off right, But do tell us more how

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Speaker 4: they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps at

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Speaker 4: this point, we took a look around our local area

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Speaker 4: and yesterday and when people realize that the that there

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Speaker 4: was no SNAP benefits a local an excellent local food

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Speaker 4: bank program here in Tallahassee that had six hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty people waiting in their cars overnight because there's no STEP.

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Speaker 4: We had people with women and children sleeping in their

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Speaker 4: effing cars.

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Speaker 3: Molly yeah.

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Speaker 1: Red state, Red state governed by the one of the

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Speaker 1: kings of Trump is oh yeah.

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Speaker 4: And Ron DeSantis has done nothing, nor have any nor

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Speaker 4: to my knowledge, of any of the Red state governors

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Speaker 4: done a goddamn thing to say to Donald Trump, Hey,

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Speaker 4: our people are going to starve because of this, why

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Speaker 4: don't you open the goddamn government.

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Speaker 1: But I do think Sean Duffy, in charge of our airspace,

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Speaker 1: former reality television host, what we're seeing again and again

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Speaker 1: is like in the DoD we had a former weekend

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Speaker 1: Fox News host Pete hag Sas.

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Speaker 4: Oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he also has not really been able to rise

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Speaker 1: to the job.

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Speaker 4: No, And look, I think the reason we don't see

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Speaker 4: them rising to the job is these people are subpar intellects,

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Speaker 4: and they are are in the broadest poss works in

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Speaker 4: the broadest possible sense of explaining it to people, they

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Speaker 4: have no idea what the hef they're doing, And then

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Speaker 4: that problem is not improving their ability to manage these complex,

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Speaker 4: multivariate cases. Now, Pete Hegseth is very excited about going

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Speaker 4: to war both with Venezuela and now Nigeria.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Nigeria out of nowhere. What was the impetus of that.

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Speaker 4: I do not really understand the let's go to war

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Speaker 4: with Nigeria idea quite yet, but I will say this,

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Speaker 4: I doubt we will be greeted as liberators.

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Speaker 1: Well, we've had such success going into other countries and

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Speaker 1: doing war with them for no reason, so why not

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Speaker 1: why wouldn't this.

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Speaker 4: Work out just as well?

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Speaker 1: When you're asking, But yeah, I would love you to

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Speaker 1: take a minute to talk about so we are pro

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Speaker 1: bailouts for certain South American countries, but pro war for others.

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Speaker 4: It is a magical It is a magical set of

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Speaker 4: mysterious criteria that we use now because Argentina, which just

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Speaker 4: to remind everybody, has a has A, has an emergency

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Speaker 4: food program for the poor, has universal childcare, has universal

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Speaker 4: health care, has universal education for pre k N and university.

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to say, we're okay paying forty billion

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Speaker 4: dollars to bail them out so that that Malay could

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Speaker 4: win his election, But we're not okay unleashing the six

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Speaker 4: billion dollars that is still in the government's bank account,

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Speaker 4: that is the snap emergency fund for food aid to

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Speaker 4: the poor. It is a very it is a very

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Speaker 4: tempting thing to say that this is just Trump, you know,

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Speaker 4: doing Epstein. But there is also an element of this

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Speaker 4: we have to think about and talk about that is

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Speaker 4: the deliberate theater of cruelty where Trump is canceling Thanksgiving

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Speaker 4: for millions of Americans.

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Speaker 1: Trump is doing cruelty. But Trump is also doing authoritarianism, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: there's a one hundred percent that he loves those people,

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Speaker 1: and it's because they provide a roadmap, you know, Putin.

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Speaker 4: Or Bond, absolutely absolutely correct. They're his peer group, they're

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Speaker 4: his pals. They're the people that he says, man, I

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Speaker 4: want America to look a lot more like those guys.

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Speaker 4: For all that we can bitch and moan about Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump being an incompetent in all this, he has a

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Speaker 4: tremendously skilled instinct for the authoritarian theater that the MAGA

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Speaker 4: base really likes.

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Speaker 1: Correct, And that's how he I mean, that's when you

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Speaker 1: look at that split screen. Okay, Saturday night, great gats

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Speaker 1: feed party, celebration of wealth. You know what the do

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Speaker 1: you know how much it costs to join mar A Lago.

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Speaker 4: Now it's like a million dollars now, right.

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Speaker 1: It's a million dollar initiation fee. It used to be,

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Speaker 1: and that like these golf clubs have high initiations. A

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Speaker 1: million dollars on president.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, look, he he is getting a million dollars for

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Speaker 4: memberships at mar a lago. Let's all remember the reason

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Speaker 4: of this, because he is the singularly most corrupt president

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Speaker 4: in the history of the United States of America. There

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Speaker 4: is nobody even close to this. And while he's off

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Speaker 4: doing this this whole like Great Gatsby deal, It's not

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Speaker 4: just that Snap has been canceled. It's that the government

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Speaker 4: is closed. It's that the economy is tetering around the age.

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Speaker 4: Let's not forget, folks. And it was it was a

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Speaker 4: it was a classic let's do it Friday night news dump.

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Speaker 4: The Federal Reserve dumped a whole ship ton of equity

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Speaker 4: into the markets Friday night, on Halloween night and after hours.

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Speaker 1: And also Scott Bessett was shopping. I think this is

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Speaker 1: like my favorite headline of the Sunday Shows. If the

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Speaker 1: Fed doesn't cut raids, we may have a recession. Oh no, baby,

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Speaker 1: that's not why we're gonna have.

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Speaker 4: Oh no, no, no, no, We're having a resent because

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Speaker 4: of y'all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Like it's like, if only the Fed will cut

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Speaker 1: interest rates, It's like, I don't know who twisted him

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Speaker 1: up into that, but it was like, yes, it was.

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Speaker 4: It was a thing of beauty. Though, Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 4: that that is a guy who's whose contortions. He's like

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Speaker 4: a He's like an Eastern European gymnast at the Olympics

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Speaker 4: in the seventies. He knows if he doesn't like do

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Speaker 4: the triple backflip and stick the landing, his family allens

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Speaker 4: to go work on the on the collective labor potato

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Speaker 4: farm or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But what you realize when you look at Scott Besson,

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Speaker 1: who was I was told he was going to be

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Speaker 1: the moderating voice.

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Speaker 4: I was told Scott Bessant was a grown up, a.

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Speaker 1: Smart guy who made with George Soros.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know why don't be afraid of Scott Besson.

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Speaker 4: He knows how to talk to Wolf Street and knows

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Speaker 4: exactly what the country's economy needs is So who.

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Speaker 1: Is a bigger coward and disappointment Marco Man of all

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Speaker 1: jobs or Scott Besson just terrible at what he does

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Speaker 1: but also very snobby Marco.

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Speaker 4: In my mind, just because I know the guy is

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Speaker 4: a worse disappointment because he had before the Trump era,

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Speaker 4: at least to every single person who knew him from

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Speaker 4: either intimately knew him or slightly knew him, this great

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Speaker 4: hatred of authoritarianism yes, it was a defining characteristic. It

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Speaker 4: was the defining characteristic of what Marco was. And now

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Speaker 4: it's like, yeah, you know, I'm just gonna let the

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Speaker 4: boss and I are going to go and shoot up

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Speaker 4: a bunch of boats and uh and then invading Venezuela

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Speaker 4: and Nigeria because why not.

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Speaker 1: They might be drug boats?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, they might be drug boats or or

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Speaker 4: it could just be you know, are they you know,

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Speaker 4: much like the sort of truthiness thing that Stephen Colbert

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Speaker 4: always talks about. They could be drug boat.

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Speaker 1: Ish, their drug boat adjacent their boats with people in them.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes people Bolts have taken drugs in their lives,

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Speaker 4: and therefore we really have to take.

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Speaker 1: Steps, we have to take steps. So it is, it

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Speaker 1: is the truthiest of truth isms. I want to get

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Speaker 1: back for another minute to just like the sheer insanity

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Speaker 1: of this moment, because it does feel very much like

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Speaker 1: a moment teetering on the edge, like the food stamps,

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Speaker 1: the government funding, the government paycheck, you know, Chicago having

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Speaker 1: ice in these fancy neighborhoods, fighting with the moms and

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Speaker 1: dads during the Halloween poole.

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Speaker 4: Well, let me tell you that that is an absolute

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Speaker 4: provocation on their part. And I get why Trump is

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Speaker 4: sending them in there and mill are sending them in

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Speaker 4: there because they're trying to send a message to elite

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Speaker 4: opinion types that they will exercise their alleged authority no

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Speaker 4: matter what they want.

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Speaker 1: Right, So say more about that, because I think that's

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Speaker 1: pretty interesting. So the idea here is they're going into

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Speaker 1: fancy white neighborhoods to show fancy white people that they

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Speaker 1: are the bosses, and that they are that crime. They

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Speaker 1: mean you and your kids doing Halloween.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and and and this is this is one more

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Speaker 4: notch I think, with Bovino, who like shows up in

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Speaker 4: his Hugo boss flowing Nazi style trench coats and and

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Speaker 4: and all his cosplay body armor and all this other bullshit,

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Speaker 4: and Miller and Nome having to actually admit something. They

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Speaker 4: were not able of the whatever the X is of

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Speaker 4: of of folks who are not here with documentation, right,

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Speaker 4: they were not able to find fifty percent who were criminals. No,

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Speaker 4: because because there weren't anything like those numbers, and and

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Speaker 4: and Joe Biden and Barack Obama and before them, George W.

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Speaker 4: Bush were finding those criminals, the criminal legals and say

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Speaker 4: them the fuck back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't.

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Speaker 4: So this idea that they were going to round up

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Speaker 4: like twenty five million illegal criminals, they're all in MS thirteen.

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Speaker 4: It was always bullshit. It was always a lie. And

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Speaker 4: they can't find them because they ain't out there. So

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Speaker 4: now they've got to get you know, jose the gardener,

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Speaker 4: or a guy who's a roofer, or a woman who's

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Speaker 4: a home healthcare nurse and pull them out of their

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Speaker 4: car in front of their kids and beat them in

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Speaker 4: front of their children. Right to do this show, and

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Speaker 4: this show is all that matters to the media content

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Speaker 4: machine of MAGA.

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Speaker 1: Right, So when you look at those numbers, and I

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Speaker 1: saw a reporting this week that showed the numbers were like,

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Speaker 1: you know, and again I don't want to say poetry,

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Speaker 1: because these are human beings being shipped on planes to

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Speaker 1: places who the fuck knows.

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Speaker 4: Foreign death camps, yeah right, yeah, foreign fourg gulags. Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 1: But they're small numbers considering like Obama numbers, And so

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Speaker 1: I wonder, like Molly, we.

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Speaker 4: Were told, we were told this was the absolute existential

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Speaker 4: crisis for this country and if we didn't get these

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Speaker 4: people out right now the world was going to fall

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Speaker 4: apart and millions of Americans would die of fentanyl.

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Speaker 1: And I was told that Stephen Miller was pulling out

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Speaker 1: all the stops. So now does that mean he's no

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Speaker 1: longer pulling out the stops?

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Speaker 4: This is why they're still doing the bullshit of dragging

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Speaker 4: American citizens out of their cars and out of their

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Speaker 4: homes and raiding neighborhoods during a Halloween parade. And by

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Speaker 4: the way, they really screwed up last week they raided

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Speaker 4: a festival out in Montana, a fall festival thing. All

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Speaker 4: of the ICE agents in the country that are operating

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Speaker 4: under a very very narrow provision where the emergency is

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Speaker 4: only legal within one hundred miles of the US border. Okay,

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Speaker 4: So that's why even in Chicago, all over Texas, Arizona,

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Speaker 4: and New Mexico, they've got this big area they can

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Speaker 4: they can claim as the US border. Right, this thing

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Speaker 4: was five hundred miles from any United States border. They

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Speaker 4: done fed up. So yeah, and look, and I will

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Speaker 4: say this, you know, I'm always like, we're only as

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Speaker 4: good as our next legal ruling. But we are seeing

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Speaker 4: right now more and more judges saying, wait a minute, no, sir,

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Speaker 4: I mean Bavino. Bavino, who more people should know about.

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Speaker 1: Explain to us the list and our listeners who Bavino.

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Speaker 4: Is, if you're, if you're, if you're a World War

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Speaker 4: two historic history official. He's the Gauleiter of Ice. He's

439
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 4: the military governor of these provinces. They send him in

440
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 4: to Chicago, and he ignores the civilian law enforcement, ignores

441
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 4: the civilian political leadership, and says, here's how we're going

442
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 4: to do it, and if you don't, I'll arrest you

443
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 4: and I'll send you off to a camp. This guy

444
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 4: is about four foot eleven as one is, but he

445
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 4: wears fancy flowing Hugo boss style not see greatcoats. Yeah,

446
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 4: and he never shows up anywhere unless he's wearing body

447
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 4: armor and his like tactical timmy bullshit mall cop outfits.

448
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 4: And he is widely known as a guy who really

449
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 4: likes to brutalize people. He is a fucking thug.

450
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 1: We're kind of back to ma Mall cops again.

451
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 4: We really are, but we're also we're also at Nuremberg

452
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 4: cops because he's like, I'm just following my orders from

453
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 4: a civilian leadership. This last week we literally had Tom

454
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 4: Homan saying, yeah, we got to cool off on some

455
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 4: of these tactics.

456
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: Tom Holman, you'll remember Tom Holman. I'm like, well, he

457
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: lives in my heart for when he took that fifty

458
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: thousand dollars of cash in a kava bag, in a

459
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: kava bag and just kiss baby refused to deny it.

460
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: And then when asked about it, was that Pam Bondi

461
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: who said, I'm sure he's taken fifty thousand.

462
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 4: Dollars, but I'm sure all of you take him fifty

463
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 4: thousand dollars. He kind of says something, I've never taken

464
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 4: fifty thousand dollars in a bag.

465
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's early days, Rick Wilson, early days, you know. Especially,

466
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: and by the way, the sheer elegance of having it

467
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: in a kava bag.

468
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, gorgeous, man, it's gorgeous. It is a work of

469
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 4: It is a scientific work of beauty to put it

470
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 4: in a kava bag.

471
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: We would be laughing if we were not, if.

472
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 4: We were not living in the most corrupt administration in

473
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 4: the history of the United States government.

474
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 1: And I include Grant Teapot Dome, Baby.

475
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 4: Teapot Dome two, Electric Bugaaloo that's right.

476
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: Will you come.

477
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 4: Back as always?

478
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: Irene Carmone is a senior correspondent in New York Magazine

479
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: and the author of Unbearable, Five Women and the Perils

480
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 1: of Pregnancy in America. Welcome too Fast, Politics, arenn.

481
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 5: I'm so happy to be here.

482
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you because you are a

483
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: great journalist, and you write about the stuff you know,

484
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 1: in a world that was last sexist and misogynistic, like

485
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 1: the stuff that is so important would be on the

486
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: front page of every newspaper.

487
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, I know it's important to us, and

488
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 6: I know that there are people out there who care

489
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 6: about it.

490
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 5: So I just to keep doing the work that we do.

491
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: By the way, I have kids, but my kids are old.

492
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: And you wake up one day you are eight months pregnant,

493
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: and the Supreme Court overturned Roby Wade. That's the start

494
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: of this book.

495
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 6: Yes, Well, the funny thing is part of the start

496
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 6: of this book is I have been for fifteen years

497
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 6: covering the fight of a reproduction in America and the

498
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 6: ways in which America manages to treat us like a vessel.

499
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 6: And four days after Alito's statement of contempt for American

500
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 6: women becomes official, right, So we read the leak, then

501
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 6: we see the official opinion and immediately because there was

502
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 6: still a chance that it would change. And I was

503
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 6: at your friend and mine's Rebecca Tracter's kitchen table in

504
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 6: Maine when it finally came out officially. And a few

505
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 6: days later I went for ultrasound because I was, I

506
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 6: think thirty three weeks pregnant. I was excited to be pregnant,

507
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 6: but I still had this feeling of the extra indignity

508
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 6: of it, because you know, even when you're excited to

509
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 6: be pregnant, your very bones are kind of creaking and shaking,

510
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 6: and your organs are being smushed, and every normal interaction

511
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 6: with the world is somehow shaped by someone else's opinion

512
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,239
Speaker 6: of your pregnancy. And so I go in for this

513
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 6: ultrasound and we're really excited because suddenly we can see

514
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 6: the fetus's face and the ultrasound Texas and I say

515
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 6: it to my husband, she's starting to look more like

516
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,959
Speaker 6: a person, and the ultrasound text says, to the image

517
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 6: of the fetus, you were a person from day one,

518
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 6: like a doler And I'm like, I'm in Manhattan and

519
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:45,880
Speaker 6: I'm just like.

520
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 5: Can you read the room please?

521
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 6: All over the country people are being forced to say

522
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 6: pregnant against their will. We are about to see people

523
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 6: at this point, this is twenty twenty two, bleeding out

524
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 6: in parking lots, waiting to go septic, to receive miscarriage care.

525
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 6: People forced to take matters into their own hands, to

526
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 6: have abortions, like can you give me the right to

527
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 6: define my own pregnancy? When half the country right now

528
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 6: is under this regime. So even in New York City.

529
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 6: This is part of the animating principle of writing the

530
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 6: book Unbearable is to draw connections between these different experiences

531
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 6: of pregnancy, and what they have in common is contempt

532
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 6: for the person who's pregnant.

533
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: So my kids are in their late teens, early twenties,

534
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: and so I was pregnant twenty little last years ago.

535
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: And like one of the things that I was struck

536
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: by during that experience, like and I have an obgyn

537
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: who I adore and who is my friend and who

538
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: is very liberal, and you know, there were certain things

539
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: that happened where I was like, huh, I had this

540
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: rare Jewish genetic disease, and they were like, this baby

541
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: may die, you may have to have an abortion. And

542
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: my gynecologist, who I love, was like, I don't do

543
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: second trimester, so we're going to have to get you

544
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: to someone who does. And I was like, and I

545
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: mean that kind of stuff. You know. Ultimately he was fine,

546
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: but that kind of stuff is like real, and you

547
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: know I wrote about him, people were like, Oh, she

548
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: just wants to abort babies that don't look the way

549
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 1: she wants them to. And I was like, yeah, he

550
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: was gonna die. Ultimately, as soon as you get pregnant

551
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 1: in this country, it's almost as if your body no

552
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: longer belongs to yourself, which is what you said before.

553
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 6: It is absolutely the case, and I think your experience

554
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 6: also shows something that I write about in the book

555
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 6: is that abortion care being separated out, at least not

556
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 6: in people's lives, but in medicine and law and the

557
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 6: way that they're structured, has actually impoverished all of medical care.

558
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 6: So the fact is, if you had needed or decided

559
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 6: to have an abortion, you know, why couldn't you get

560
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 6: it from your same doctor? Well, okay, maybe later on

561
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 6: it's a more specialized procedure, but even a very simple

562
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 6: early abortion, which is the same as having an iud

563
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 6: or taking a pill has been again, even in New York,

564
00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 6: separated out because of politics and fear and STI and

565
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 6: I think any given person's experience of pregnancy in life

566
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 6: is so much more complicated, so much messier, and at

567
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 6: different points in your life you might need different things.

568
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 6: But medicine says, no, there's the good mother, there's the

569
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 6: bad mother. There's the one who needs the abortion and

570
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 6: has to walk into the clinic where people are screaming

571
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 6: at her or do something that might put them in

572
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 6: trouble with the law, versus the perfect mother who would

573
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 6: never abort.

574
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 5: And so part of the argument of my.

575
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 6: Book is, in fact, this is all of us as

576
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 6: different parts of our lives, and we think it would

577
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 6: never happen to us, or we'll never need that kind

578
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 6: of care, we would never be policed in this particular

579
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 6: kind of way. But the way America treats you when

580
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 6: you're pregnant, it can totally happen to any of us.

581
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's so much value judgment and women's health decisions period.

582
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: Paragraph abortion not abortion right. But the thing that I

583
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: think is a sort of one of the things we

584
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: saw in the Harris campaign try to do was say, like,

585
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: this is not about aborting, this is about having a

586
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: healthy pregnancy. Talk us through how it affects that.

587
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 6: I think Dobbs accelerated something that was already happening, because

588
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 6: we already have the highest maternal mortality rate among any

589
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 6: comparable wealthy country in the world. No matter how you

590
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 6: crunch the numbers, pregnancy related debts in the United States

591
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 6: outpace all of our pure nations, and we tolerate that somehow,

592
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 6: like we tolerate also a complete lack of support when

593
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 6: somebody gives birth what happens after that. Up until very recently,

594
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 6: you'd get thrown off your insurance in a couple of

595
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 6: weeks in many states. I think that to invest in

596
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 6: a healthy pregnancy, you would have to believe that the

597
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 6: people who get pregnant, mostly women, matter, And so I

598
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 6: think it's connected to the abortion battle or war, because

599
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 6: it has to do with the same lack of respect

600
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 6: and regard for those of us who can become pregnant. So,

601
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 6: whether we want to carry to term, which the women

602
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 6: in my book, several of them do carry to term

603
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 6: and then find themselves treated horrifically when they give birth,

604
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 6: or whether we don't want to be pregnant. It would

605
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 6: a true investment in maternal health, which Kamala Harrison was

606
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 6: talking about with a reproductive justice informed lens. If we're

607
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 6: truly respected people who can become pregnant in America, we

608
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 6: would invest resources and we would also listen to them

609
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 6: about what it is if they need or we need

610
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 6: and want.

611
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we don't do that. In fact, we do

612
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,239
Speaker 1: the opposite. So talk me through what this looks like

613
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: in America post DOBS.

614
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 6: Immediately, we were told, after the abortion bands that were

615
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 6: empowered by DOBS went into effect, that this would only

616
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 6: affect abortion.

617
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 5: And mind you, the law that.

618
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 6: This report was asked to hear was a fifteen week

619
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 6: abortion band. So in the beginning it was, oh, this

620
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 6: will only affect later abortions, and then all of a sudden,

621
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 6: it's in many states all abortions or from six weeks on.

622
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 6: It did not only affect abortions, as we well know,

623
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 6: women seeking miscarriage care were immediately affected, women having stillbirths,

624
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 6: women whose behavior during pregnancy did not meet what the

625
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 6: law or medicine thought that they should do. Immediately, you know,

626
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 6: we were told that women wouldn't be criminalized for miscarriage.

627
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 6: We have seen that happen in multiple states. We've seen arrests.

628
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 5: One of the women that I write.

629
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 6: About her experience actually took place a little bit before Dobbs.

630
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 6: This is a woman, Haley Burns in Edowa County, Alabama.

631
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 6: Even before the Supreme Court allowed states to ban abortion,

632
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 6: Edowa County was the nation's capital of criminalizing pregnant women

633
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 6: by locking them up for positive drug tests. And even

634
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 6: if you were pulled over for speeding and they found

635
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 6: let's say this is a case of the rule, when

636
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 6: they found marijuana in her car, they would take her

637
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 6: into jail. They were pregnancy tester, and they would drug

638
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 6: test her. And if you were pregnant and you were

639
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 6: positive for any kind of substance use, you would then

640
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 6: beat charged with chemical endangerment of a fetus of a child.

641
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 6: And so in the case of the woman I write about, Haley,

642
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 6: she was arrested six days postpartum in her son's hospital room.

643
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 6: The way that this is playing out is the same

644
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 6: logic a fetal personhood, the same logic of policing women's bodies.

645
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 6: If she had had an abortion in Alabama, they could

646
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 6: not have locked her up. She actually did what they

647
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 6: said she was supposed to be doing. She had her

648
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 6: baby now because she had an opioid addiction problem. Instead

649
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 6: of offering her support and services, they lock up a

650
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 6: six day postpartum woman in jail for two months, and

651
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 6: she still doesn't have custody of her children, even though

652
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: she's been cleaned for years. None of that would have

653
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 6: happened if she hadn't gotten pregnant. And so one thing

654
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 6: I really want to do with this FOC is to

655
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 6: draw these connections between these seemingly desperate experiences of pregnancy

656
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,759
Speaker 6: and show how Dobs made them much worse, but did

657
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 6: not invent them, because this is something that goes back

658
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 6: to our country's most profound idea and history of how

659
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 6: we feel about women and people who can become pregnant.

660
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I think is really

661
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: important about this story is when a pregnant woman or

662
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: postpartum woman is arrested, they then have less of a

663
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: claim on their own children. Talk us through that absolutely.

664
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,279
Speaker 6: I mean, like I said, if she had had an

665
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 6: abortion when it was still legal in Alabama, which she

666
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 6: considered doing and then ultimately felt like it was against

667
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 6: her religious views, the state of Alabama, you know, could

668
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 6: not have had a claim on her, but because she

669
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 6: was pregnant and charage a term and they drug tested

670
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 6: her while she was pregnant, the medical providers called the

671
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 6: cops on her, and they called social services and all.

672
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 6: This is an extremely common story even here at New

673
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 6: York City. Women have lost custody of their children that

674
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 6: marijuana use when it is legal. It's another way in

675
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 6: which the state undermines the rights of women when even

676
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 6: if there is no medical harm, even if somebody has

677
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 6: shown that they are have received treatment, that they're clean.

678
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 6: In her case, as I mentioned, she's been clean for

679
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 6: two years and she still only has visitation with her kids.

680
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 6: She's got a job, she's put her life together, she

681
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 6: served her time. The punishment for being a quote unquote

682
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 6: bad mother can be lifelong.

683
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to talk to us about the

684
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: ways in which these laws have helped abusers. In case

685
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: you thought this wasn't completely about misogyny. I think these

686
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: bits really show what's going on. Yeah.

687
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, I've reported on some of the

688
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 6: cases that have come up in the post stops era

689
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 6: where they're trying to bring civil cases and Texas in particular,

690
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 6: the law is really set.

691
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 5: Up for this.

692
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: They really hate women in Texas. I feel like the

693
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: state legislature like in Texas, they're like, you may hate

694
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: women in Alabama, but we really hate them.

695
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, Texas has been willing to experiment with innovated the

696
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 6: bounty hunter law, even or roby Wood was a return

697
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 6: the Spome court let them do it. And so in

698
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 6: that vein of allowing people to bring civil claims against

699
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 6: abortion providers, we've seen you know, as you know, the

700
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 6: reason that we don't have women lying bloody in the

701
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 6: street with coat hangers is because of the Revolution and

702
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 6: abortion pills. People are accessing abortion through courageous shield providers

703
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 6: who are setting their bills across state lines. The one

704
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 6: way in which this has gone wrong so far is

705
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 6: by abusive boyfriends finding out about this. You know, there

706
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 6: was a really high profile lawsuit in Texas in which

707
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 6: a man sued the friends of his wife for helping

708
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 6: her access and abortion, and it later came out that

709
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 6: he was threatening her. He was threatening to expose her.

710
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 6: He was saying that if she didn't continue having sex

711
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 6: with him and doing his laundry, he would publicize the

712
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 6: fact that she had an abortion in that case, he

713
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 6: later withdrew his claim. This was brought by a so

714
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,360
Speaker 6: called Christian right lawyer, Jonathan Mitchell, who's the father of

715
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 6: many lawsuits.

716
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that guy sucks. In case you're wondering that guy socks. Yeah.

717
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 6: Look, anyone can engage in reproductive coercion, but I think

718
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 6: the moment that you make this exercise of an individual

719
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 6: person's will something that they can be locked up for

720
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 6: and lose their rights and lose their rights to their children,

721
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 6: the state becomes one of the abusers alongside the abusive partner.

722
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: This is not about children, right, we know this is

723
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: not about children. This is not about preventing abortion. It's

724
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: about power and control. So talk us through the ways

725
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 1: in which you feel like the show us that thesis.

726
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 6: Well, so let's go back to that Chaill in Alabama.

727
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 6: The woman that I wrote about, Haley, she gets a

728
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 6: rest a six days postpartum. She immediately ends up in

729
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 6: a bunk where all of the other women are pregnant.

730
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 5: Wow, they have locked up so many.

731
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 6: Women in Atawa County, Alabama through this logic of chemical endangerment,

732
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,280
Speaker 6: which is to say, if you test positive for drugs

733
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 6: when you're pregnant, you will be charged with child abuse

734
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 6: against your own feedents. There are so many of them

735
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 6: that they can all be roommates at the same time.

736
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 6: And at that point they had aarticular kind of like

737
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 6: even if you had ten thousand dollars cash bail, which

738
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 6: was not imposed on other non violent offenders, you also

739
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 6: had to get a spot in rehab at the same time.

740
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 6: So they had this catch twenty two where these women were,

741
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 6: you know, trapped, this Kafka esque situation where pregnant women

742
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 6: are trapped in the hospital.

743
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: Poor pregnant women because nobody who's upper middle class they're

744
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: paying that ten thousand dollars.

745
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 6: True, in Ediwack County, they are poor, but Alabama has

746
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 6: also prosecuted upper middle class women for using prescription drugs

747
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 6: during their pregnancy, So.

748
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: It's very egalitarian of them.

749
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 5: Were trying to show how walk they were.

750
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, they actually did change the law to say that

751
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 6: if it was a prescription drug only after they prosecuted

752
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 6: upper middle class women.

753
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 5: But I think nobody is safe here.

754
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 6: That said, Edwick County is a poor, rural county, predominantly

755
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 6: white and working class, not a lot of jobs. There's

756
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 6: a lot of people who aren't dealing with substance dependencies.

757
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 6: And if it were really about babies, would you lock

758
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 6: up a pregnant woman and not give her access to

759
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:58,439
Speaker 6: prenatal care?

760
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: Oh, they don't provide pre they.

761
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 5: Don't provide even access to pads.

762
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 6: In the course of the reporting that I did on

763
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 6: this jail, there's a case that was brought against the

764
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 6: State of Alabama for one of their jails. A woman

765
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,240
Speaker 6: had a premature birth and she was asking for medical

766
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 6: care and they would not transfer to the hospital. When

767
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 6: she finally, belatedly was transferred to a hospital, she had

768
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 6: a still birth. Who can say that incarcerating women are

769
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 6: making them afraid to seek prenatal care because they're worried

770
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 6: that the hospital or the doctor's office will call the cops.

771
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 5: Can be good for babies.

772
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 6: If it were good for babies, we wouldn't have outcomes

773
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 6: like a woman having a totally preventable still birth. That story,

774
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,399
Speaker 6: of the five women's stories that I tell, they're all

775
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 6: really difficult. That is a really difficult one that I

776
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 6: think really illustrates that if this was about babies, we

777
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 6: wouldn't be locking up their mothers. It's not good for anybody.

778
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 6: The other thing that I write about is doctor Yoshika Robinson,

779
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 6: a former abortion provider in Alabama who was providing abortions

780
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 6: till the day was overturned. No longer able to do that,

781
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 6: wants to still be there for her patients, and so

782
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 6: she proposes turning the shuttered abortion clinic into a birth center,

783
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 6: because that's not an option that exists in there part

784
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 6: of Alabama. You have a low risk pregnancy and you

785
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 6: want to get birth with midwives, that that can be

786
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 6: an option for you. What does the state do. They

787
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 6: pass laws that look just like the restrictions they pass

788
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 6: on abortion. They make it almost impossible because they don't

789
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 6: want to compete with the doctors. We're talking about a

790
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 6: state that has one of the highest rates of maternal

791
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 6: mortality in the country, and so she actually has to

792
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 6: go to court just to offer women safe birth care. Again,

793
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 6: if this were about babies, if this was about women's health,

794
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 6: none of this would be happening.

795
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: Correct, What unbelievable fucker?

796
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 4: Right?

797
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 1: I mean just infuriating. Tell me what the thing that

798
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: when you were reporting this book where you were like,

799
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:54,959
Speaker 1: how like the thing that just got you the most

800
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: upset or that you feel is the thing we need

801
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: to know.

802
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 6: I think it's really important to know that even in

803
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 6: blue states, pregnancy is not supported and could be safer.

804
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 6: Here in New York City, black women are much likelier

805
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 6: to die giving birth than white women, and our race

806
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 6: shit is worse than Alabama.

807
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 5: And so I actually.

808
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: Write about two women.

809
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 6: Yes, at the time that I was writing about in

810
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 6: the book, the last couple of years, a black woman

811
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 6: was eight times more likely to die of childbirth related

812
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 6: issues here in New York City. The ragio in Alabama

813
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 6: is four. So New York City is doing worse than

814
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 6: Alabama when it comes to protecting Black women who give birth.

815
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 6: And I write about two such women who went to

816
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 6: the same hospital. Both had really shitty experiences, one white,

817
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 6: one black.

818
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 5: The white woman.

819
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 6: Barely survived but lived to raise her children. The black woman.

820
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 6: Her husband has become a maternal health activist. His name

821
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,240
Speaker 6: is Jose Perezi, actually just became a doula. I discovered

822
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 6: the worst of my reporter that they had had the

823
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 6: same doctor shortly after Christine Feels the second woman died.

824
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 6: And so the moment in which I felt like I

825
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 6: was going to throw up was when I discovered this revelation,

826
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 6: which is in the book of how it could be

827
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 6: that two women were so intertwined and both of them suffered,

828
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 6: but only one of them lived. And it's a testament

829
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 6: to the profound inequalities of this country. Even here in

830
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 6: New York.

831
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: City does a doctor still practice.

832
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 6: No, but he was still practicing for quite a while

833
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 6: afterwards until it was exposed.

834
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Oren.

835
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,759
Speaker 5: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

836
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 4: No, Rick Wilson may drug fast.

837
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: I have a moment of fockery that I get these

838
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: MSNBC transcripts that emailed to me if there's like a

839
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: big interview, and I read this and I was like no.

840
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: And then I was like this cannot be. And then

841
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 1: I saw a Koppaman and I was like, oh my god.

842
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: So the Weekend Morning Shows has Eugene Daniels, Jonathan K.

843
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: Park and Jackie alamany three people, all different people, Okay,

844
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: none of whom are the same person. No, No, they

845
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: are not asked a question about diversity. Cuomo has this

846
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: insane answer about how sometimes diversity can be bad. Already

847
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: perhaps a bizarre like sometimes diversity can be bad, and

848
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: then he goes, well, Jonason.

849
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 4: They all look the same. Tomorrow at the Cloma.

850
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, man, come on, and that, my friends,

851
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 1: is not how you do it.

852
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 4: No, listen. I mean this because I love New York

853
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 4: City passionately. It is a city with people from one

854
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 4: hundred and seventy seven countries or whatever the number is,

855
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 4: who speak hundreds of languages, who have every possible background

856
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 4: in the world, and they have come to that city

857
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 4: for hundreds of years now because it is unique in

858
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 4: the universe. And if you're going to be mayor of

859
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 4: the city, you are not going to be talking to

860
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 4: a bunch of white bros from the Upper East Side.

861
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 4: So you might want to respect people a little bit

862
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 4: and pay a little bit of fucking attention if you

863
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:57,919
Speaker 4: want to be the mayor of New York City.

864
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:00,839
Speaker 1: I just think that the lesson here is that if

865
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: you're going to run someone for elected office, they have

866
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: to actually want to have the elected office.

867
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 4: Well there is that.

868
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: It's and this is the lesson to the Democratic Party.

869
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 1: Just because your guy is famous, if he does not

870
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: want the job, voters will know well.

871
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 4: And I think I think you saw over the weekend

872
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 4: there was a big push in the right wing ecosystem

873
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 4: to say, oh, the race is tightening, Quomo's coming up fast,

874
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 4: even Sliwa has a chance. No, none of that is real. None,

875
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 4: that's real.

876
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 1: No, it's not, none of it. None of it. By

877
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 1: the way, if you have a moment, watch the Saturday

878
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: at Live.

879
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 4: Oh it was. We watched it this morning and it

880
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 4: was just like picture perfect on all three of them,

881
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 4: including them Dami. By the way, it was very That

882
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 4: was good comedy.

883
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: It was really like the best description of our mayor's

884
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,919
Speaker 1: race that I've seen, and it just nailed it. And

885
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: I have so much respect for all parties involved.

886
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 4: The best part of it was I think they constantly

887
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 4: what it's like. You know, I'm the only one here

888
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,320
Speaker 4: who's been dangled by my genitals off the Verizonta bridge.

889
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: It's probably true. That's it for this episode of Fast Politics.

890
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:22,439
Speaker 1: Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear

891
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 1: the best minds and politics make sense of all this chaos.

892
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 1: If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a

893
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 1: friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.