WEBVTT - Matt Williams 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:04.040 The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand Up Tour continues throughout 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.320 twenty twenty four. For a full list of dates and tickets, 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:10.280 go to the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.680 See you out there, the Greig Ferguson Show dot com 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:18.759 slash Tour. My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:23.560 this podcast is Joy. I talk to interest in people 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:30.560 about what brings them happiness. Matt Williams has written or 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.640 created or both some of the biggest sitcoms in American history, 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:38.879 some of the most controversial sitcoms in American history. And 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:44.200 now he's well, he's kind of looking for God. Matt Williams, 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.519 I want to talk to you about your book in 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.160 a little bit because it is a book of First 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.920 of all, I've read it, now that's full disclosure. I've 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.400 read the blurb for it, and now I will read 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:00.920 it because I do read, and I want you to 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.319 understand that I will read it. And when I was 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:05.920 doing Late Night people used to say, well, you got 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:08.280 to read the book before you know the celebrity is 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:10.520 on the show. You are the celebrity at this point, 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.240 and I'd say, no, I'm not going to read the 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.560 book or watch the movie or see the TV show, 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.080 because then we're both talking about something we already know about. 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.520 Oh see, there you go. And I had this conversation 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.959 with Leno, Who's like, no, that's totally wrong. You're so rude. 0:01:27.440 --> 0:01:29.920 That is so rude. I said, all right, well, I'll 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:32.160 skim through the movie. But a book's a commitment. A 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:34.320 book is a commitment you've got to. I mean, that's 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.440 that's a few days, you know. And if I'm talking 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:40.240 to authors every day, that's my whole life. My whole 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:43.280 life is reading books, which is not a terrible life. 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:48.800 I guess when you because your book is a spiritual book. 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.080 It is a memoir told through humorous essays and what 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.960 I call spiritual musings, there is a spiritual thread. 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.320 Yeah, it seems to me, like like the blurb by 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:04.120 Red that is about something there. Look you tell me what. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:05.960 The God is very much a part of it, right, 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:07.800 So God's apart? Are you a religious person? 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.920 I am? Okay, what stripe is where my stripe early 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:17.120 on was Lutheran and very strict Lutheran. And then that's 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:20.480 one of the story threads is my evolution from God 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:26.560 being a pissed off, bearded guy sitting on a cloud. Yeah, Santa, Yeah, 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.840 you know, the petulant parent waiting to throw you into hell. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.959 And then as I Maturita went, wait a minute, why 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.600 do you want to spend time worshiping that God? And 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:38.960 then as I started exploring other religions and going, if 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.760 God is love and there's a divine mind, a spirit, 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.639 a holy mystery, whatever, the ultimate creator, I want to 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:50.000 lean into that rather than the pissed off parent. And 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.520 so that's part of the journey, is that spiritual journey 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.359 is tracked in the book. I hope with humor and humility, 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:56.320 I would imagine. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.359 So I mean giving you a writing credits so far 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.920 were again that it seems like you are capable of 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.440 writing the occasional humorous music, Yeah, the occasional joke. Where 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:07.600 did you Did you end up in a particular organized 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:11.600 religion or did you just a wonder of Lutheranism into 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.919 a kind of soft rainbow colored informal. 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:17.480 I call it. I call it. I don't use the 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:21.320 term Christian because that has all this baggage. So as 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:27.120 you say Christian Bible thumping, hairsprayed, evangelist, calcified Christianity, my 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:31.120 way or the highway, misogynistic, judgmental, blah blah blah. Yeah, 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.680 none of that christ I don't. So I say instead, 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.720 I'm a follower of Christ. So I am a Christian 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:39.880 in that sense because whether you can wrap your head 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:45.040 around the historic Jesus being God incarnate or not, at 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:47.960 least look at what the man was preaching and teaching, 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:51.200 be kind, be compassionate, take care of the poor, feed 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:53.880 help others. Yeah, who can argue with that? 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.320 Yeah? I think that my feeling, my personal feeling about 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.200 Christianity because I I'm I think I'm want a similar 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.720 kind of streat, you know, kind of search as you are. 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.200 I'm looking for something that kind of makes sense in 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.920 a God sense. And you know, I was raised in 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:14.200 Presbyterian Scotland, which is not a million miles away from Lutheranism. 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:16.520 It's kind of the same. It's like it's got all 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.040 that predestination and you know, you know, you can try 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.159 being good, but it's already been decided and all that 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.839 kind of stuff, and you're kind of screwed. And let's 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:30.280 not have any pictures up anyway, like like you suck 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:35.919 and you're not even allowed to have art fun. But 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.839 I became fascinated in recent times. I'm sure you have 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:45.120 read C. S. Lewis and GK. Chesterton and the Christian Apologies. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:50.960 Right through reading them, I was fascinated by, particularly C. S. Lewis, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.080 who seems to be able to put it into bite 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.480 sized chunks and kind of entertainment style language that I 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.400 can read and understand and digest pretty easily. I ended 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.440 up at the Desert Fathers. Have you come across those 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.520 guys you're talking Thomas Merton or you talk to I'm 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:17.120 talking Origin of Alexandria. If agrees of Pondos Anthony st. Hildegarde, 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:21.719 Julian Hildegard is awesome, Yeah, yeah, yeah. What really drove 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.159 me back to Christianity was studying the Christian mystics, because 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:29.760 they're dealing with panantheism. They're dealing with God living in 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:32.200 all things, God being alive in all of us, as 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:36.440 opposed to that floating figure out there, that calvin mentality 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:39.560 of Oh I've got to beat myself up and crawled 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.000 and broken glass for God to love me. And I thought, 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.240 wait a minute, Hildegarde, Meister Eckhart they talk about the 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.359 divine spark that lives in all of us. Well, that 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:50.760 was Origin of Alexandria as well. That was like second 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:56.240 century Christian mystics. So I'm fascinated by that because I 0:05:56.279 --> 0:05:59.800 think a lot of that. Lutheranism though a lot of that. 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.160 I mean, look, if you're a Luther, if you're Lutheran 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.440 and this is pissing you off, well, let's be honest, 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:07.800 you were pissed off before have we started anyway. But 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.000 I think that all of that kind of punitive form 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:19.080 of religion is a product of the very necessary reformation 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.719 after you know, during the I mean because even the 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:26.360 internal reformation that the Church had, Catholic Church had at 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:28.240 the time, they were trying to find a way. But 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.560 Origin of Alexandria was excommunicated five hundred years after he 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:38.680 died because he said, there can be no physical representation 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:42.600 of God. That's insane. God is If God is everywhere, 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.960 then how can you draw a picture of it? That's silly. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.800 And he was excommunicated five hundred years after he died. 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.680 Because I feel like, if your business is selling art 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:59.320 and pictures and bones and relics, candles and candles and 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.800 little gig in Chashkaz. Then it's going to be tricky 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.800 if you say, well, there can be no physical representation 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.480 of God. You can't have a drawing of the sapphire 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:11.920 pavements of heaven. You're going to have to just go 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:14.640 there in your head. And of course he even went like, 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.640 you can't do it in your head either. It's that's 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.000 not a Some people are very strict. Are you very strict? 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.320 And what do you feel you've arrived at a belief system? 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.960 Are you still kind of stay? Oh, I'm always evolving. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.840 I think that's the older you get, the more you read, 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.600 the more you travel the world, you keep evolving. I 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.400 think that's one of the problems with organized religion is 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.200 it's it gets locked in. Like I said, calcified, it's 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:42.160 this way, it must be this way. It's dualistic thinking. 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:44.400 There's right and wrong, there's God and the devil and 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.000 nothing else, ones and zeros and want and I go, 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.560 I don't believe that if God truly and I do 0:07:50.640 --> 0:07:55.360 believe God lives in all things right and animates all life, 0:07:55.640 --> 0:07:59.760 and right now is expanding the universe. Were sitting inside right, Well, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.040 then and I better start changing my concept of God. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.200 And I'm still evolving. I'm still trying to learn. 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:08.520 Right. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.160 I read as much as I can about other religions, 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.880 and you know, when you start to break them down, 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.200 really break them down, they're kind of all saying the 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.280 same thing pretty much. Just don't be an Asshole'll be kind, Yeah, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.120 don't be a dick, and don't be and take care 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:23.520 of people. 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.480 Yeah, it's kind of that nice. 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:26.080 Be nice. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.160 Yeah, I know it's it's kind of interesting. But your 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.800 period of your writing career in Hollywood, I mean, so 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.719 you started. The reason why I'm going to this is 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.120 because it's not a period which is renowned or an 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.280 area which is renowned for spirituality of any kind. Really, 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.800 I mean, there's a lot of yoga, but but and 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.160 yoga's great, but you know it's like, but yoga and 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.840 juice aren't. That's not where it ends. So you were 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.240 working You've started on I guess be The Cosby. 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.840 Show, right, very first television show that was your first 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:02.840 job as a writer, as a writer, it was The 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.400 Cosby Show, which was in La would be in New York, in. 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:08.360 New York in the eighties. Was in the eighties. 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:10.360 Yeah, it was in the eighties, and it was It 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:14.199 started in Brooklyn Avenue M and Brooklyn at studios a 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.920 way out there, and then eventually moved to Astoria in 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.280 Queens and Queens. So the Cosby Show and then with 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.320 two other writers did the spin off. I created the 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:27.240 spinoff Different World, Right, And then after three and a 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.040 half years on The Cosby Show, I left created Roseanne right, 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:34.120 that made a deal at Disney, and then created a 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:37.320 couple of other shows, and then eventually created Home Improvement 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.240 with David and Carmen, my two partners. 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:42.280 Right. So you you have worked on some of the 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.240 most successful shows. Man, you must be so rich. It's 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.480 the eye of the needle having thing. I'm just mentioning it. 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:52.960 I'm pretty blessed. Well, those were the good times, man, 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:56.079 those were there. I mean that's when in sitcoms made money. Yes, 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.679 so you're working. You weren't like I had writer on Cosby, Right, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.160 you were in the room. Yeah, So A Different World 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:04.760 was your first, Like you're running it. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:08.440 No, we just did the pilot a man named John 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.560 Marcus and Carmen Finestra, who later became my partner at 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:15.080 wind Dancer. The three of us took Bill's idea. I 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.000 think Bill got the created by credit because it was 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.280 his idea and we had to develop by credit or something. 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.720 And but we wrote the pilot, produced the pilot with 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.880 Tom and Marcy. The show was launched. Then we went 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.880 back to the Cosby Show and continued right because we 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.959 were the staff was small, five maybe six writers and. 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.720 Yeah at that time that's tiny. 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.199 Yeah, and so when you have three of them, peel 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:41.600 off to create a pilot. So then we came back 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:46.080 to the show. And then while working on Cosby, Tom 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.520 Order and Marcy Carci said do you have any ideas 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:49.280 you want to pursue? 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.880 And then that then you you went into Roseanne Roseanne. 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:58.000 Now you've worked with both Cosby and was that for 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:03.400 widely different reasons. Their legacies are tarnished pretty pretty badly, 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.800 cause me very obviously. So are you still in touch? 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.200 No, I've not talked to Bill in Uh. He actually 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:14.720 shot a video when New York Station Film honored my 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:18.199 wife and I many years ago, and he did a 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.200 video and I talked to him then, but that was 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:21.600 fifteen years ago. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.800 Yeah. It's funny though, because I it's people people won't 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:27.760 say I never met BeO Cosby, but people saying, did 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.280 you hear anything, And I was like, actually no, but 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:34.800 I wasn't in that world. I wasn't anywhere near it. 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.480 Did you hear anything, but there was no vibe about 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:38.160 it or anything. 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:42.000 Well you heard things about maybe women being around, but 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.880 being a serial rapist. No, no, concept. I was shocked. 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.560 Well, you mean that he had a lot of women around, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.360 but you didn't know that he was using women? 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:56.040 Yeah at all? And so and what was tough was 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.360 he was kind of my mentor I learned comedy. You 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:00.000 hear the tapping? 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.160 Yeah, is that that's Bill's it? 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:06.800 That's Bill? It's somebody with a hammer above us? Shut 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:07.439 the hell up. 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.960 Maybe it's the Lutheran God. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:12.760 You're right, yeah, yeah, I got the lightning bolt. 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:17.160 Guys, So you weren't aware of any of that going, No, yeah, 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.840 it's not it's a professional environment. I guess it's it's 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:24.800 a strange, strange thing. It's kind of very upset. So 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:30.000 you moved from Cosby into Roseanne, right, Norrazanne? That show 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.360 was based on Harstando. Right, that's how you guys built 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:34.720 around it? Is that or was inspired by it or something? 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.920 It was a combination of two things. I went to 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.200 Tom and Marcy and said I want to do a 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.600 show about three women who work in a factory in 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:47.160 the Midwest where I grew up, because a friend of 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.960 my wife's has said, you know, we have a real 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.800 support system. These women who work in the factory, this 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.839 was in Detroit. All support each other and baby sit 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:57.880 each other's kids, and if one of them get sick, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.240 they buy groceries. And I went, isn't that in And 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:05.440 so the original concept was three women, one married with 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.640 a husband and children, one divorced with a child, one single. 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.000 These three women so and they said, we like this idea. 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.559 We love the idea of female driven you know, sitcom. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.880 And then they said, we have someone we think should 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:25.800 play the married female on the show. Look at her 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:27.960 stand up. Well, of course it's Roseanne. She's got a 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:32.600 very strong feminist point of view. So we started developing 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.720 this and that became the point of view of the show. 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.800 And I will give her credit because she brought that 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:46.640 whole feminist point of viewstrong voice, a very strong voice. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:50.640 But the real key to the success of that show 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:56.680 was John Goodman. Yeah, because when John at his quote audition, 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.400 he was more of a chemistry test. When he walked 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.520 into the room with her yeah, and within seconds he 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.600 told her to move over. She told him to shut up, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.760 and they started and Tom and Marcy turned to me 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.360 and said, there's your shot. It's the show. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.959 That's the core of your show. They're both spectacular specific yeah, 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.800 and John Goodman is one of my favorite actors of 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:18.160 all time. 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.000 Oh yeah, Yeah, he's amazing and it's just going bear 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.160 and bear as he like he he went through a 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:29.960 journey personally as well, and uh, didn't we all? Yeah, 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:35.240 The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascals stand up to her continues 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:39.320 throughout the United States in twenty twenty four. For a 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.640 full list of dates and tickets, go to the Craig 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:50.160 fergusonshow dot com slash tour See you have there? Did 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:51.640 that ever get in your wait? Did you ever hit 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:53.520 the wall with booze and drugs and all that kind 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:54.000 of stuff? 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.320 No, no, not booze and drugs. I think the I know. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.920 I was never addictive in that sense. I was very 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:05.600 tough on myself. Perfectionist and part of what uh, and 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:10.000 it's over compensating for childhood crap, and so I would 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:14.120 really beat myself up for not being perfect because going 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:19.520 back to that God. If you weren't perfect, you couldn't 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:23.280 be loved. And I addressed this in the book. In fact, 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.120 one of the chapters is called knee Slapper, where at 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.800 my earliest memory was making my mother laugh doing impersonations 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.200 and pratfalls because I equated her. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:36.240 Laughter with love, love and approva good. That's why you 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:37.160 work in comedy. 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.000 And I go, of course, it doesn't take a boatload 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.120 of psychiatrist to figure out why you end up being 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:41.840 a comedy writer. 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.520 How did it manifest itself in the perfectionism though? How 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:45.680 was it negative in your life? 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:51.880 There's never any satisfaction or joy because it's never good enough, 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:56.200 even if it's number one, having two number one shows 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.680 almost back to back, and going it's not enough. There's 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:01.880 got to be more. And I've said this in other 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:07.280 interviews that anytime I created something and it was inspired 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.640 by love and guided by spirit, it's seeded a big time. 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:16.280 Anytime it was inspired by competition and driven by ego, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.800 it usually crashed and burned. Because you're out here in Hollywood, 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.000 the hamster wheel Hollywood. You start running faster and faster, 0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.240 and you look over your shoulder and go, well, he's 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.840 got two top ten shows. I should have a third tops, 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.800 I need a fourth. Time that movie opened, then my 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:36.000 movie's going to open bigger and you go put on 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.800 the brakes. Wow, you've lost perspective here. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.680 Well you see that in like in the billionaire race, 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.840 and you know, oh yeah, ridiculous billionaires with the super 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:50.520 odds and the oh my god. And I think was 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:53.440 kind of strange about it. And what I feel very 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.480 grateful for was I feel exactly the same, and I 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.120 think probably my motivations are extremely similar to you. But 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.240 what happened to me is when I got to do 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.520 Late Night and every night you meet, I was meeting 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.400 some of the most successful people in show business. They're 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.480 coming through and I realized that the mensh to douchebag 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.480 ratio is exactly the same as it is in the 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.080 average bar, in the average city anywhere in the worlds. 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.360 Some people are nice, some people are douchebags, and most 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.840 people are kind of you know, travel between both, trying 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:27.320 to stay on the bench as much as possible. And 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:33.760 what I was intrigued by was that more success oftentimes 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:38.680 me looked to me anyway to bring more personal unhappiness. 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.720 I feel like that's there's almost a religious a parable 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.960 in that. I think like that, you know, as success, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.280 because I've always felt like as a as someone who's sober. 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:52.760 I've been sober for thirty two years. In the thirty 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.239 two years i've been sober, and of course there are 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.440 times when you think when it gets dangerous and you 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.560 might get drunk. The times when it's been dangerous in 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:04.040 my sobriety have not been times of adversity. There have 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:08.520 been times of you know, I'm doing good, you know, 0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:13.480 I mean, I maybe deserve a little respector and that's 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.080 when I lose a sense of perspective. Now you wear 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:21.240 and are extremely successful writer. So at what point in 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.040 the perfectionism or did you did it break for you? 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.520 Was there a moment? Was there like a bottoming out 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.640 or a talking out moment where you go, there's never 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:31.560 going to be any good in this. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:37.000 I think what happened was I kept pushing. And you know, 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:40.280 every career is like a wave. It has its peak, 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.719 and you know, and I hit that. But I stayed 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.679 in the business longer than I should have. I kept pushing. 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.240 I kept pushing, And I touch on this in the book, 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:54.960 is when you stop creating from passion, and you start 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.720 generating product, right, they even call it product. They even 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:00.960 call it product, And you got to you gotta be careful. 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:06.280 And then I was at a pitch meeting at a 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.560 studio after having created some very successful shows, and I 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.280 was pitching a ten episode arc for a new series. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.320 And in that I said, the lead actor and the 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:21.119 female love interest next door have their first kiss in 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:25.199 episode ten. And someone in the room stood up, This 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:28.480 is not a creative it's not the president of the network. 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:32.720 It was a salesman who sells shows set into syndication. 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:37.240 And he jumped up and went, no, no, no, they 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.960 can't kiss. And I went, excuse me. He goes, they 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.000 can't kiss, and then he started quoting data new girl, 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:50.159 when this character kissed this character, they dropped exponentially in 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:54.280 this key demographic and started And when that happened, my 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.720 brain exploded and splattered all over the wall, and I went, 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:02.879 what the fuck I doing. I literally got in the car, 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.040 drove back to the wind Dancer offices. Yeah, and told 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:09.760 my partner at wind Dancer. I told David, I said, 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.600 I'm closing up shop. I'm done, I said, because now 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.480 it's not the tail of the dog, the flea on 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:18.720 the tail is wagging the dolls. 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:23.480 Sure, totally. But what's interesting is is I because obviously 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.359 there are young creative, artistic people coming up, Oh of course, 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.800 but they're not They're not here. They're not coming up here. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:32.840 They're coming up through the internet. They're coming up their 0:20:32.840 --> 0:20:35.919 own way. They're finding ways through because they will. But 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:42.159 you're right, the idea, particularly after COVID, when people pitch 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.520 shows now they do on zoom call. How the fuck 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.240 are you going to know if the energy is a 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:50.440 thing is going to work on a fucking zoom call? 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:52.760 And so people say, Ei, there's five hundred channels and 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:54.399 nothing to watch. I'll tell you why there's nothing to 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.720 works because the people in charge of it hate you 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:00.640 and don't fucking care. All they want is you. They 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:02.359 don't they don't give a shit about it. If the 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.760 shoe is good or not, they don't fucking care. Nobody 0:21:05.840 --> 0:21:09.479 fucking cares. That's not our brand. It's like your brand. 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.240 Which the fuck are you talking about your brand? You know? 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.639 But that's why one of the reasons I laughed, I thought, well, wow, 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:20.080 I'm better now, I'm I'm fine with U said, I 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:22.320 think I sent the ament of bitterness. And show business 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.800 is good. It means you are participating. But I think 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.119 if you, if you go too far, then it closed. 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:30.280 I didn't want to come. I didn't want to become 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:33.320 synecal I honestly I closed up shop. I moved back 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.040 to our farm in New York, and I told my 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.800 wife I'd literally turned to her one day and I said, 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.520 I don't want to die with all these stories still 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:43.439 living inside me. 0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:46.480 Ah, so now you start writing, to find another. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.560 Way to write these stories that were stirring around, and 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:54.760 almost as a cathartic exercise, I started writing what had 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.680 been bubbling in my unconscious and deep in my heart, 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.280 and it just started kind of pouring out. And then 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:05.879 I felt liberated because I didn't have network meetings, I 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.920 didn't have studio meetings. I wasn't being noted to death 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:14.080 by twenty executives. Yeah, and so these essays, these humorous 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.480 essays and these musings started pulling pouring out, and I went, 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.359 my gosh, this is the best I have felt in years, 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:25.360 because I'm back to creating as opposed to grinding out product. 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.760 I'm creating something from my heart. And it really felt 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.200 good and it evolved into the book. Well, I think 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.040 that it's I think it's healthy in it. I mean 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:38.280 it's also it's a natural progress of an artists as 0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:42.439