1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Hi everyone. Before we get started, I want to provide 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:06,239 Speaker 1: a warning ahead of this episode because it contains information 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: about suicide which may be upsetting. I also want to 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: provide you with the suicide lifeline, which is one eight 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: hundred to seven three eight to five. Again, that's one 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: hundred three eight to Hi everyone, I'm Katie Kuric, and 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: you're listening to next question. You might remember Congressman Jamie 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Raskin for the impassioned speech he made during President Trump's 9 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: impeachment hearing last year. And all around me, people were 10 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 1: calling their wives and their husbands, their loved ones to 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: say goodbye. Members of Congress in the house. Anyway, we're 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: removing their congressional pins so they wouldn't be identified by 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: the mob as they try to escape the violence. He's 14 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: describing the January six insurrection, when a violent mob stormed 15 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: the US capital. January six also happened to be the 16 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,639 Speaker 1: day after Congressman Raskin and his family buried their twenty 17 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: five year old son, Tommy. This emotional confluence of personal 18 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: grief and national terror is the focus of Jamie Raskin's 19 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: new book called Unthinkable Trauma, Truth and the Trials of 20 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 1: American democracy. We recently had a lengthy conversation and we 21 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: started by focusing on what he describes as the worst 22 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: week of his life. Unthinkable. Congressman represents two crises, one 23 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: private and one public, that happened in the span of 24 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: a single week. Take us back to that week if 25 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: you could, Well, you're talking about the worst week of 26 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: my wife. I suppose. Um. You know, we suffered the 27 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: catastrophe of losing Tommy on the last day of December 28 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:16,679 Speaker 1: in you know that's that's a an inexpressible nightmare, basically 29 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: what what that was? And Tommy was a young man 30 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: of magnificent gifts and talents, and he was brilliant. Um. 31 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: And he was a poet, he was a playwright. Uh, 32 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: he was in his second year at Harvard Law School. 33 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: But the truly remarkable thing about him was his heart. 34 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: Because he was someone who had just a boundless love 35 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: of the world and of all living beings, all sentient creatures. 36 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: Used to pet our dogs and say, you know, Potter, 37 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: you're such a fine sentient being. Uh. But anyway, he 38 00:02:54,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: was suffering depression and um um he was back home 39 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: from school because of COVID nineteen um and grew increasingly 40 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: despondent um and developed a plan, unbeknownst to us, to 41 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: take his life. And he did. And UM, so uh, 42 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: this was a terrible catastrophe for us. And everybody was home. 43 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: Our daughters were home, Sarah and I were here, lots 44 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: of family came, um and then UM. I had been 45 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: getting ready, really for a few months for the first 46 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: Wednesday in January, which the Twelfth Amendment says is the 47 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: day for Congress to meet in joint session to count 48 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: Electoral College votes. And we had anticipated aggressive maneuvers against 49 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: particular states and Speaker plos. He had asked me to 50 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: prepare answers for what was going on with a handful 51 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: of other colleagues, and we were prepared. Um. But the 52 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: night before my daughter said, don't go in. I said, 53 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: this was a constitutional responsibility. It would be, you know, 54 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 1: my first day back. UM, And I said, why don't 55 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: you lunch come with me. Anybody wants to come, can come. 56 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: And so our younger daughter Tabatha decided to come, and 57 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: our son in law, Hank, who was married to our 58 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,160 Speaker 1: older daughter Hannah, he decided to come. Everybody else was 59 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: going to stay at home. UM, and so they were 60 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: there with me on that day, and that was a 61 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: nightmare of a different kind. Although I recorded my book 62 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: Katie that UM, although it was an objectively terrifying situation, 63 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: I really experienced no fear because I felt like the 64 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: very worst thing that could ever happen to me had 65 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: already happened. And what were these fascist and hooligan's going 66 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: to do that could be worse than what I had 67 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: already experienced. But I was very angry about what was 68 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: taking place, and you know, set about in my mind 69 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: to try to figure out exactly what they had done 70 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: in trying to overturn election and how they coordinated this 71 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: inside political coup against the Vice president and against Congress 72 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: with a violent street attack which um ended up storming 73 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: the Capitol, injuring a hundred and fifty of our officers 74 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: and shutting down the counting of Electoral College votes for 75 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: the first time in newest history. You call it a 76 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 1: self coup that was instigated by the President of the 77 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: United States. Did you ever think that you would hear 78 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 1: those words? Well, yeah, I didn't even know that expression, 79 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: which is a political science expression that they used to 80 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: describe a coup that comes from the inside. Usually we 81 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: think of coups as being something from the outside directed 82 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: against the asident, oftentimes by the military. UH. Here, of course, 83 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: the military was standing in strong defense of constitutional democracy, 84 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: but the president orchestrated the coup against the vice president um. 85 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: And after trying multiple different avenues of attack uh to 86 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: overturn the presidential election. Uh, Donald Trump finally settled on 87 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: this avenue of going after Mike Pants during the January 88 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: six proceeding. But he had tried before to get state 89 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 1: legislatures simply to avoid the popular results and to declare 90 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: electoral college tickets for Trump. When m Republican legislative leaders 91 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: and the states refused to do that, then he moved 92 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: to try to browbeate and coerce state election officials, including 93 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: the Georgia Secretary of State Brad Ravensburger, simply to find 94 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: electoral find popular votes. And he had asked Brett Ravensburger 95 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: to find eleven thousand seven in Gin native votes. That's 96 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: all he was asking for. So that that was not 97 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: Donald Trump trying to stop voter fraud. That was Donald 98 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: Trump trying to commit voter fraud, um and UM. When 99 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: all of these prior attempts to overturn election failed. That's 100 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: when uh, they settled on the idea of trying to 101 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: get Pence to declare extra constitutional powers, powers outside of 102 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: our rule of law, to unilaterally rebuff and repudiate electoral 103 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 1: college events from the States. The purpose there was to 104 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: lower Biden's total and electoral college from three or six 105 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: to something below to seventy, thereby kicking the contest immediately 106 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: into the House of Representatives under the twelfth Amendment for 107 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: a so called contingent election. And the reason that they 108 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: wanted Speaker Pelosi and the Democratic House to be deciding 109 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: was because in a contingent election, we don't vote according 110 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: to one member, one vote. We vote according to one state, 111 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: one vote. And after the elections, they were in control 112 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: of seven state delegations in the House. We had and 113 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: have twenty two, one Pennsylvania split down the middle. So 114 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: even had they suffered the defection of the at large 115 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: member from Wyoming, Liz Cheney, which I think they would have, 116 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: they still would have had twenty six votes and they 117 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: would have declared Trump president. Uh. He would have seized 118 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: the presidency for another four years, and he likely would 119 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: have invoked the Insurrection Act at that point to call 120 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: in the National Guard, which he had not dispatched earlier 121 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: in the day UH, to put down the insurrectionary chaos 122 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: he had at leashed against us. So he would have 123 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: basically made himself the hero, saying, you know, Speaker Plos, 124 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: he couldn't keep order here, but I'm keeping order here, 125 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,440 Speaker 1: and then making himself president for another four years. That 126 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: was basically the plan. You taught constitutional law at American University, 127 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: and all your years teaching constitutional law, did you effort 128 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: imagine and something like this happening? Well, what's interesting is 129 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: we had we had clearly imagined the parliamentary attacks on 130 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: the election. We were prepared for that. We had answers 131 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: to everything they were going to say about Arizona and 132 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: Georgia and Pennsylvania. After all, UH sixty one federal and 133 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: state courts had examined all of their claims of electoral 134 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: fraud and corruption and rejected all of them. Um, so 135 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: we had very good answers across the board. We'd also 136 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: anticipated are some violence outside. But what it never occurred 137 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: to me was that the whole proceeding would actually be 138 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: overrun by violence and shut down, and that this UH 139 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: political coup against the election would be coordinated with a 140 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: violent street attack by thugs and fascist group that were 141 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: brought together for the first time. You know, Katie, A 142 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: lot of people recognized that Donald Trump used these violent elements, 143 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: you know, the Proud Boys who had told to stand 144 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: back and stand by, and the oath keepers, and the 145 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: three per Centers and the Q and on networks that 146 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: he kept flirting with and so on. But it's also 147 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: the case that they used him too, because remember back 148 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: in August of two thousand seventeen when they tried to 149 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: unite the right at that horror show in Charlottesville, Virginia. Well, 150 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: they only had five hundred people, right. Um, they went 151 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: from five hundred people there, and they certainly did enough 152 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: damage and they killed Heather Higher and um they turned 153 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: a great, a great city upside down. But um, it 154 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: was contained. But when it got to January six, the 155 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: extremist group was now several thousand in uh acting is 156 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: basically frontline stormtroopers for a march of forty or fifty 157 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,079 Speaker 1: thousand people. They were in league with the President of 158 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: the United States. They stored in the Capitol, and they 159 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: came very close to overturning the whole democracy. So, in 160 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: addition to everything else, Donald Trump empowered an extreme right 161 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: wing street fascist movement the likes of which we have 162 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: not seen in America since Basically, we'll be right back. 163 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: I want to talk more about President Trump's role in 164 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: the future of the Republican Party, but I'd like to 165 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 1: go back, Congressman to Tommy for just a moment. It 166 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: strikes me that you were not as fearful as you 167 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: might have been, because you had just faced the worst 168 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 1: thing a person can really be confronted by, and that 169 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,839 Speaker 1: is the depth of a child. Um. Tommy, by all accounts, 170 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: was truly extraordinary. And I know we all think our 171 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: kids are extraordinary, but your son was so outstanding. It 172 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: was a student at Harvard Law School. He was a deep, 173 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: deep thinker from an early age. How he would go 174 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: in his room and think about big, big issues. I'm 175 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: sure he his goal in life was to change the world. 176 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 1: Can you help us understand his his struggles with depression, 177 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: how they manifested themselves, and how such a brilliant person 178 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: could be plagued by such demons. Well, first of all, 179 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: thank you for your kind words about Tommy. Um. We 180 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 1: obviously you know loved him, UM endlessly and infinitely, and 181 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: we think about him all the time. UM. And we've 182 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: heard from lots of families that have been in a 183 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: similar situation. And of course each of these losses is 184 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: um overwhelming, and all of our kids are extraordinary and 185 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: unique in their own way, and so each one is 186 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: a nightmare and a tragedy for the family. And of 187 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: course we're living in a time of great trauma, with 188 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: having lost nine thousand people to COVID nineteen, comparable numbers 189 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: to the opioid crisis, UM, gun violence, the mental and 190 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: emotional health crisis, the sharp increases in suicide, especially among 191 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: young people. UM. You know, all of these things have 192 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: created a sense of great despondency and demoralization and the public. 193 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: And we've gotta, you know, we've got to bring everybody 194 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: back from this however we can. UM. I guess I 195 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: would just say and answer your question. UM. You know, 196 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: for those of us who have not suffered from depression, 197 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: it's very hard. I. UM. You know, I spent a 198 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: long time reading about depression before writing about Tommy, and 199 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: I think I really didn't understand it until something very 200 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: weird happened, which is I UM, I went to get 201 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 1: a cat scan UM on my stomach um and it 202 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: ended up being nothing, that's the good news. But I 203 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 1: was put into the cat scan machine and I don't 204 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: know if you've ever gone through that um and uh, 205 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes apparently they will give people value or 206 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: music or something. But I was just put under and 207 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: I was just staring at the top of the machine, 208 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: which was a few inches away from me. And you 209 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't think that that would cause, you know, such a 210 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 1: sense of claustrophobia and panicked. But I was under there 211 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: for thirty seven minutes, and at several times I was 212 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: tempted to just abort the whole operation and stop, but 213 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: then I knew that I would have to start over again. Um. 214 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: But I had such a sense of entrapment, in such 215 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: a sense of fear and terror, that for the very 216 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: first time, I think I began to experience just the tiniest, 217 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: tiniest bit for the shortest period of time, some of 218 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: what Tommy described depression being like. And for those people 219 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: who have gone through it, it's been described as the beast, 220 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: as an endless, dark tunnel of terror and horror, and 221 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: it's um, it's a nightmare. Even to here people describe 222 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: you know what it's been like. Oh, I'm sorry, so 223 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: sorry for your loss, and uh, the loss of a 224 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:16,359 Speaker 1: child is something no person should ever have to experience. 225 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: But wow, what a legacy Tommy left behind. And I'm 226 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: glad he's really present in your life and the life 227 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: of so many people because of your book. Um, really, 228 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: there are no words to I think express express our 229 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: sympathy to you. Congressman. You know you you were dealing 230 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: with the loss of Tommy. I mean, it was so fresh, 231 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: so raw, so new when the insurrection happened. And it 232 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: does strike me that you predicted this in many ways 233 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: because you were charged with by Speaker Pelosi, with figuring 234 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,439 Speaker 1: out ways that President Trump might try to circumvent or 235 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: thwart the electoral process. Was it eerie for you to 236 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: see we thought this was going to happen, and my god, 237 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: now it is. Well. The part that we had not 238 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: predicted was the crossover of the street militancy and violence 239 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: into the capital and the merger of this violent insurrection 240 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: with the inside moves for a political crew. Um. And 241 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: that what I condemned myself for in the book is 242 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,200 Speaker 1: not putting these things together. And I think for different reasons. 243 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: I described that I should have been in a place 244 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,880 Speaker 1: to have predicted that and been far more focused than 245 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 1: I was, just on the physical security side of things, 246 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: and not just you know, in terms of swering the 247 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: various parliamentary moves that were being made, um, you know, 248 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: against the result or you know, the outside of political 249 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: efforts to attack the whole electoral college process. I was 250 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 1: prepared for those things, but I didn't put it together 251 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: with what now looks in the hindsight to be telltale 252 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: signs of a violent insurrection that was well coordinated with 253 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: this political attach after all. I mean, it wasn't a 254 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: random demonstration. It came right at one pm on Wednesday, 255 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: January six, UM, and the people were sent right down 256 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: from that White House rally to the Capitol where uh 257 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 1: then President Trump was telling people to go. So uh, 258 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: these different components were actually well coordinated against US and 259 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: UM because of the heroism of the capital officers who 260 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: literally put their lives on the line and many of 261 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: them ended up with broken jaws and necks and vertebrae 262 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: and others who ended up with traumatic brain injuries and 263 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,479 Speaker 1: post traumatic stress syndrome. And also because Vice President Pence 264 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: on that day lived his oath of office. He upheld 265 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: his oath of office. Because of those things, we were 266 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 1: narrowly able to defeat the first coup in American history. 267 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: You're also on the January six how select committee charged 268 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,439 Speaker 1: with investigating the attack after a year, more than a 269 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: year of collecting interviews and evidence, Um, how much closer 270 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: are we to understanding the forces that were on that day? 271 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: We were much closer. But it was a very complex 272 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: picture because, um, we'll think of it in terms of 273 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: three rings of sedition that took place on January six. 274 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: The outer ring was tens of thousands of people who 275 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: arrived with a spectrum of motives. But the president had 276 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: called for a wild protest UH in Washington, and that 277 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: mass protests became a mob riot which injured our officers. 278 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: The middle ring of activity was the domestic violent extremist groups, 279 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,639 Speaker 1: and this was the realm of the insurrection. These people 280 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: came with the idea of overthrowing the government, shutting down 281 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: the electoral college process, and installing Donald Trump as president 282 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: for another four years. And this were all all the 283 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: extremist groups that were brought together UH into this insurrectionist band. 284 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,439 Speaker 1: But the very inside of it was the ring of 285 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: the coup, and that was targeted at Pence just to 286 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 1: get him to make this totally unlawful gesture of rejecting 287 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: electoral college votes, UH, in order to kick the entire 288 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: thing into the House of Representatives for a so called 289 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: contingent elections. So they exploited UM the various phases of 290 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: the electoral college system, which is something of an antique, UH, 291 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: in order to promote their plan. You know, the guy 292 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: sits next to me in the Rules committee at promoter 293 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: from Colorado, UH said, this used to be a day 294 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: in the old days of bipartisan celebration. People would go 295 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: out drinking and it would take forty five minutes and 296 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: everybody accepted who the president was. It has now been 297 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: transformed into another terrain of partisan combat and even violence. 298 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: So that's one of the things that our select Committee 299 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 1: has got to confront in terms of thinking about the 300 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: future and fortifying the democratic process. What do we do 301 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: about the fact that the electoral college, which worked so 302 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: so as long as we were willing to accept the 303 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: basic legitimacy of the votes in the states. But if 304 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: that's out the window and you've got strategic bad actors. 305 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: What do we do now with the fact that the 306 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: electoral College is this protracted, torturous set of fights about 307 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Do you think Trump was the maestro, 308 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: the puppeteer, the person who ultimately was doing the targeting 309 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: of all these different groups. Well, that's a complex question. Uh. 310 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: And you know, we've received overwhelming cooperation from the witnesses 311 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: in our investigation, right up until you get to the 312 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: entourage right around Donald Trump. So Steve Bannon, Roger Stone, 313 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: Mark Meadows, who's kind of doing the hoky poke one 314 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: ft in, one foot out, but there are the people 315 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 1: right around him have tried to maintain a kind of 316 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: code of silence. So some of it was clearly directed 317 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: even publicly by Donald Trump. Some of it we know 318 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: came through intermediaries. But we don't know the exact proportions 319 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: for every part of, um, the assault on the election, 320 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: because we don't have, you know, complete testimony. Yet a 321 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: lot of people here about Steve Bannon and Mark Meadows 322 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: and Roger Stone refusing to cooperate, and they think, well, wait, 323 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: how can they do that? Can't Congress compel them? Um? 324 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: In theory? Yeah, um, I mean there's three mechanisms by 325 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: which we could do it. One is the criminal contempt, 326 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: which we've done, um in handful cases. We've helped people 327 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: in criminal contempt, and then it's up to the Department 328 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: of Justice. Unfortunately, the gears of the Department of Justice 329 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: were moving slowly on that. Another possibility is civil contempt 330 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: that we go to court and we just try to 331 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: get judges to compel them to participate or again to 332 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: hold them in criminal contempt for not doing it. Uh. 333 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: And the third possibility the is what's called the inherent 334 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: powers of contempt that Congress has. That is, we could 335 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: ourselves try to compel their participation. So, UM, it's a 336 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,479 Speaker 1: fine grained case by case determination about what to do 337 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: in each particular case. Um. We've made progress in some 338 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: of these cases. Um, but it's frustrating in others. But 339 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: we also don't want to get completely caught up in 340 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 1: one of these things and have that overtake the whole process. 341 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 1: Why is Marrek Garland acting so slowly? A lot of 342 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: people are very frustrated with the Attorney General and the 343 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: fact that more isn't being done well. Uh. A Jorney 344 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,639 Speaker 1: General Garland is a constituent of minded. I don't speak 345 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: ill constituent skating, um, but I will say you know, 346 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: they've they've brought more than seven fifty charges against people 347 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: for different levels of involvement, all the way from trust 348 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 1: pass to assault on officers to destruction of federal property. 349 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: They seem to be working their way up with charges 350 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: like seditious conspiracy brought against Stewart Road and the bath Keepers. 351 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: And I if it's proceding the way other mob prosecutions 352 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: have proceeded, you work your way all the way up 353 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: to the top. So I've got to believe, uh, that's 354 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: what's happening. Um. Obviously, there's a lot of political delicacy 355 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: for an attorney general, especially coming out of a period 356 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: where the Department Justice was so deeply politicized and subordinated 357 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: to the will of then President Trump about bringing these 358 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: kinds of prosecution. So I think they probably want to 359 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: make sure that you know, all the eyes are dotted 360 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 1: and the teaser crossed, and that they have all of 361 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: the procedural formalities in place, and that they've got all 362 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: of the evidence. UM. In any event, you know, their 363 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 1: investigation is about individual criminal accountability. Our instigation is about 364 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 1: social and political accountability for all of us. What was 365 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: the nature of that attack on our democracy, and how 366 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: do we ready ourselves and prevented in the future. We 367 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: want to make sure that we're not fighting yesterday's battle. Uh. 368 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of focus, for example, on the 369 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: role of the vice president, understandably so, but there was 370 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: never any ambiguity about that before that. The vice president's 371 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: role was a purely ministerial and administrative one, not a 372 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: decision making role where the vice president could just declare 373 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: unilaterally certain states electors to be invalid um. So if 374 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 1: we clarify that, fine, I think that that's an okay 375 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: thing to do. But I don't want us to think 376 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: that what we clarify that therefore everything is okay, because 377 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: what we still have is an entire political party that's 378 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: positioned itself outside the constitutional order, which has adopted a 379 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: rule where ruined philosophy. Either they're gonna rule and control everything, 380 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: where they're gonna destroy our ability to govern as a democracy, 381 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: and that's an unacceptable attitude for a political party to adopt. Him. 382 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: We've got to figure out ways to fortify ourselves against that. 383 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the future of the GOP 384 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: in a moment. But I wanted to ask you, Congressman 385 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: about Rudy Giuliani, who has indicated he is going to, 386 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 1: you know, may testify or isn't talked to testify, and 387 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: that he would be less confrontational. How likely is he 388 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: to offer substitutive cooperation? Well, um, you know what, I 389 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,199 Speaker 1: think we would have to take maryor Giuliani's testimony for 390 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: what it's worth when he gives it. Um. And he 391 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: obviously presents different attitudes and poses in different contexts that 392 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: we see him. Um. But I believe that he will cooperate, 393 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,399 Speaker 1: and I believe that he will do his best to 394 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 1: explain everything that he was up to. Um. You know, 395 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: one thing I've come to recognize about Donald Trump is 396 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: that he creates franchises. So there's a Steve Bannon group, 397 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: there's a Giuliani group. Uh, you know, there's a Ivanka 398 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: Trump group. There's different groups of people who he uses 399 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: for different purposes. And I think the best that we 400 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: can hope for is to find out from Giuliani what 401 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: what his understanding was of his plan and his role 402 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: as he had been assigned to work on it by 403 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. Are you starting to chip away at all 404 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 1: the obstacles that President Trump and his um allies have 405 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: thrown in your way in terms of the work of 406 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 1: the committee. President Biden, I know, ordered Trump White House 407 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: bussor logs to be turned over to the committee because 408 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: they're substantial, I guess gaps and some of these phone logs. 409 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like you're getting finally the information, 410 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: the material, the tools you need to really get to 411 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: the bottom of all of this. Yes, the courts have 412 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly ruled in our favor anytime when someone has come 413 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: at the authority of the Select Committee or our ability 414 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: to receive the evidence that we want and need. Um. 415 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: The Springport historically has been emphatic that Congress has the 416 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: right to collect the information it needs in order to legislate. 417 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: And what would be a more pre legislative purpose than 418 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: figuring out how to protect the continuing stability of the 419 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: government itself against outside who's an insurrection. So we're winning 420 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: there and we are getting uh the evidence we need. 421 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: And in a democracy, UM, the truth really does want 422 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: to be free. Uh, the truth will come out. It's 423 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: just that we're in a race against the clock now. 424 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: I mean we see that we need to get this 425 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 1: done this year. We are hoping to have hearings in 426 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: the spring, hoping to get are report out in the 427 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: summer or the early fall. UM, we need to make 428 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: a report to Congress into the American people about what happened. 429 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: You're you're wanting to get your work done before the 430 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: mid terms. Can you explain why that's important? Well, every Congress, 431 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: of course, stands on its own, unlike the Senate, which 432 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: is a continuing body, which has you know, overlapping terms 433 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: of the Senators, so it's just one third of the 434 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: Senate that's up every two years, and it's a continuing body. 435 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: The Congress itself um ends at the end of this 436 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: term and then a new Congress is created for the 437 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: next term. So all of the work of the committee's 438 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: ends um in this term. And so this is the 439 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: general clock that we're operating on UM and you never 440 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: know what's going to happen in the next Congress. So uh, 441 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: you know, we have a strong bipartisan committee. We've got 442 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: a great chairman in Benny Thompson, uh from Missippi. We've 443 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: got a great vice chair in Liz Cheney from Wyoming. 444 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: It's the most bipartisan committe Katie, I've ever served on UM. 445 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: You know, it's the only committee I serve on that 446 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: doesn't begin basically with an hour of partisan invective and 447 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: polemics and denunciation, where we just get right into the 448 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: task at hand. And it's a good thing because the 449 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 1: task is so important. Do you think the longer this takes, uh, 450 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: the less invested the American people will be and getting 451 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: to the bottom of it. That's something that I wonder about, Congressman. 452 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: You know, we've been hearing about this for over a year, 453 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: and I feel like the attention span of the American 454 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 1: people is not particularly long. I know that's a rash generalization, 455 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: but how concerned argue that the longer this takes, the 456 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: less people will care? I mean, I actually have the 457 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: contrary impression. I think that every day that goes by, 458 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: people get more and more fascinated and engaged with the 459 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: question of how exactly we almost lost it all on 460 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: January six. So I believe, if anything, the public interest 461 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: the suspense is building UM for us to tell the 462 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: complete story of how this took place, why it took place, 463 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: and what we need to do to protect ourselves When 464 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: we come back. Congressman Raskin and I talk about the 465 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: future of the Republican Party, and you have to wonder 466 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: about what's going on at the state level with legislatures 467 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: and with secretaries of state and people who are being 468 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: put into these positions who are sympathetic to Donald Trump. 469 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,959 Speaker 1: It was interesting to read that the Committee has issued 470 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 1: another round of SPINA subpoenas, including to Trump officials and 471 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: four prominent GEOP officials from battleground states. How significant is 472 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: evidence of a coordinated effort by the Trump campaign at 473 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: the state level and how concerned are you about what's 474 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes, kind of quietly state by state 475 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: by state in terms of uh putting these people in 476 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: who are sympathetic to Donald Trump and have no qualms 477 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 1: about overturning the will of the people. Well, I think 478 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: you put your finger on it um. And this is 479 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: why I'm saying we can't fight the last battle and 480 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: just focusing on the role of the vice president in 481 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 1: the January six proceeding. The big terrain for conflict I 482 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: think coming in is this effort to seize control over 483 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: the electoral machinery. And the first thing they're doing is 484 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: going after anybody who did not do the will of 485 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: Donald Trump. In take Secretary of State Brad Raethinsburger, who's 486 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: a lifelong devoted Republican who simply refused to make up votes, Well, 487 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: they're going after him. They're getting one of my colleagues, 488 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: Jody Heist, to run against him for Secretary of State 489 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 1: of Georgia. And you go state by state, you will 490 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: see that anybody who refused to be a loyal soldier 491 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: for Donald Trump's efforts to steal the election is now 492 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: being opposed, deposed, um, fired, what have you. They're going 493 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: after all of them, whether they're in and a point 494 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: of office or in an elective office. So I'm very 495 00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 1: worried about that because what's at stake here is the 496 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: traditional idea of bipartisan or nonpartisan election administration. And they 497 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,919 Speaker 1: want to replace nonpartisan election administration with partisan election administrator. 498 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: That's administrators where they put in their loyal lieutenants. And 499 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: then the ultimate appeal is not to a bipartisan election board, 500 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: but it's to the state legislature, which is in their hands, 501 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: or to the governor. Uh that obviously resembles much more 502 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: of Banana Republic than it does American democracy as we 503 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: think of it. Do you think that Donald Trump will run? 504 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: Given the fact I appreciate that you're not a prognosticator, 505 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,839 Speaker 1: but certainly you have must have a view, do you 506 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: believe that Donald Trump will run again? Yeah, I'm planning. 507 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: I'm planning all of my work around the supposition that 508 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: he's running. He's telling people he's running. It makes sense 509 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 1: um politically because he's got that kind of control and 510 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,719 Speaker 1: has made sure he's got that kind of control over 511 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: the GOP. It makes sense for him financially because the 512 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: Trump presidency was above all a money making operation. And 513 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 1: I do fault myself and other Democrats for not putting 514 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: forward from the very beginning his rampant violations of the 515 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: emoluments clauses and the money that he was collecting both 516 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: from foreign governments but also from the US government at 517 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: all of the golf courses, in the hotels and the 518 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: other kinds of commercial ventures. So yes, financially, I think 519 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: he wants to keep a good grift going, and politically 520 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: he's got the power to do it. And psychologically, of course, 521 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,239 Speaker 1: we know that he needs to do it because he 522 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: can't stand the idea that he lost he's been lying 523 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: about his defeat by more than seven million votes to 524 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: Joe Biden for several years. Uh, and um, so I'm 525 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 1: fully expecting it. And uh, what we need is not 526 00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: just the Democratic Party, but independence, uh moderate Republicans, not 527 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 1: under the Conservative Republicans, not under the spell of Donald Trump. 528 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: Greeds everybody to rally around to defend American constitutional democracy 529 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: because it's the whole experiment that's at stake right now. 530 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: You don't think all these allegations so at the state level, 531 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 1: you know, all these investigations will result in some kind 532 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: of um, you know, criminal proceeding or civil proceeding that 533 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,239 Speaker 1: will prevent him from front putting his hat and the 534 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 1: ring again. Well, um, yes, I do believe he is 535 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,280 Speaker 1: starting to get his come up. It's in a whole 536 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: bunch of criminal and civil investigations into things like real 537 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: estate fraud, bank fraud, election fraud like the investigation in 538 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,880 Speaker 1: Georgia to what he did with Ravensburger. But we also 539 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: know he travels with a huge team of lawyers for 540 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 1: pretty much his whole business career. He's got a ton 541 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: of money to defend himself, and he's got a loyal 542 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 1: cultish following that is not going to be interested. I mean, 543 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,280 Speaker 1: as Donald Trump himself put it, he could shoot somebody 544 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue and he's not going to lose his followers. 545 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a strange thing to brag about, but 546 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: that is the hallmark of an authoritarian religious or political cult, 547 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: and he does exercise that kind of control, so those 548 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: things might happen. We also have to take account, Katie 549 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: of section three of the fourteenth Amendment, which is really 550 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: important because it says that anybody who has sworn an 551 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,960 Speaker 1: oath to uphold and defend the Constitution against the enemies 552 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: foreigner domestic, and has violated that oath by participating in 553 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: insurrection or rebellion shall never hold office again, either at 554 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: the federal or state level. That's totally apart from impeachment 555 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: and conviction. It's just a principle that's put into the 556 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: fourteenth Amendment. And so, uh, there are already some suits 557 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,200 Speaker 1: that have been brought about this relating to certain members 558 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 1: of Congress one in North Carolina. We're watching that closely, 559 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 1: but we're also trying to figure out what exactly does 560 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 1: section three of the fourteenth Amendment mean and how can 561 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: it apply to the current situation. It seems to me, though, Congressman, 562 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: you're telling us that Donald Trump is above the law, 563 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: that he has these lawyers, he has a cult following, 564 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,840 Speaker 1: and that it is possible that none of these things 565 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 1: will stick, which seems insane. Well, um, this I agree with. 566 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: But the rule of law is as strong as the 567 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,040 Speaker 1: people who are willing to enforce it, and so we've 568 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: all got to be tough and hang tough for constitutional democracy. 569 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: This is why, uh, Liz Cheney, Adam Kinziger, the Republicans 570 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: who voted to impeach ten of them in the House, 571 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: the seven who voted to convict in the Senate. UM. 572 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,359 Speaker 1: To my mind, these are constitutional patriots. These are people 573 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: who are standing up for their constitution above the rule 574 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: of one guy or the interests of one political party. Um. 575 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: And that's what we need everybody to do right now, 576 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: regardless of what your party or ideology is. We're unified 577 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: by virtue of having one constitutional framework, and everybody has 578 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,640 Speaker 1: got to stand up for it, uh, and stand up 579 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: for the rule of law. I mean, Donald Trump is 580 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 1: essentially a one man crime wave, and you can find 581 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: thousands of lawsuits of him being sued by plumbers and 582 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,520 Speaker 1: electricians and small businessmen and carpenters. People he just decides 583 00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: not to pay and makes them sue him because he's 584 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 1: got that army of lawyers, and then they end up 585 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: settling for pennies on a dollar. This is how he's 586 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 1: done business for decades. And we know about his rampant 587 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: violations of law as president and the way that he 588 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 1: just defies the Constitution. So it's frustrating how long it 589 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 1: takes to enforce the law and make the law work. 590 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: But I do think that, um, he is going to 591 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: get his come up in in the In the end, 592 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,840 Speaker 1: we're going to say that our Constitution was vindicated, and 593 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: that's our historical assignment. Before we go, I want to 594 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: ask you about the future of the Republican Party, which 595 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: has clearly been taken over by the cult of Donald Trump. 596 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: Can the party be rehabilitated in your view? Mitch McConnell 597 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,080 Speaker 1: is obviously working behind the scenes, it appears to thwart 598 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: another run by Donald Trump, But how can the party 599 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: be rehabilitated or returned to its roots, whatever those are 600 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: at this point. Well, when I had the chance to 601 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: speak to Republican senators during the course of the Senate 602 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: impeachment trial. I would say to them, this is something 603 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 1: you've got to do for America, something you've got to 604 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: do for the Constitution, But you have to do it 605 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: for your own party too, because he will destroy your party. 606 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:32,360 Speaker 1: And what's so odd is that they've they've basically threatened 607 00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: the destruction of their own party by following him blindly, 608 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: when he's not even really much of a Republican. He 609 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: was a Democrat for a long time, he wanted to 610 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: run for president on the Reform Party. He's made fund 611 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,719 Speaker 1: of the Republican Party, and so he's just a very 612 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 1: bizarre champion of Republican Party values. And these days, of course, 613 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,680 Speaker 1: there are none left. It's all him. Either you obey 614 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,440 Speaker 1: his will or you don't. So I don't know. I 615 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: know that you know, there are certainly Republicans like Liz 616 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: Cheney who are challenging him on principle and trying to 617 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: assert principles that should instead be the organizing glue of 618 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,879 Speaker 1: the Republican Party. We'll see if they're able to take 619 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: him on, and if not, the Republican Party will likely 620 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: be replaced by another party. I mean, that's that has 621 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: been the historical pattern when a party essentially walks the 622 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: plank like that with you know, someone who takes them 623 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: in a hopeless direction. So, uh, you know, there's nothing 624 00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,960 Speaker 1: in the constitution about the Democratic Party and the Republican 625 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: Party or even a two party system. Uh, there could 626 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,440 Speaker 1: be other parties that emerge, and that might be a 627 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: healthy thing for our politics. Congressman Rask And I was 628 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: struck by a passage in your book, and the preface 629 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: actually about trauma, and I was wondering if you could 630 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: read it, because it speaks about trauma on so really 631 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: two different levels. Um. I've learned that trauma can steal 632 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: everything from you that is most precious and rip joy 633 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,959 Speaker 1: right out of your life. But paradoxically, it can also 634 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,240 Speaker 1: make you stronger and wiser and connect you more deeply 635 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,080 Speaker 1: to other people than you ever imagined by enabling you 636 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: to touch their misfortunes and to integrate their losses in 637 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: pain with your own. If a person can grow through 638 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:31,800 Speaker 1: unthinkable trauma and loss, perhaps a nation made too. In closing, 639 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: Congressman or asking, do you do you think our country 640 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: can come out of this time of unprecedented turmoil and 641 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: division stronger than ever? And what about those who truly 642 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: believe the state of our union is in peril and 643 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: the future of our democracy is bleak. Well, I don't 644 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,919 Speaker 1: want people to despair in any way. UM. For one thing, 645 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: If you identify the source of our immediate problems with 646 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:07,040 Speaker 1: um Trump and Trumpism, as I do, you can recognize 647 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,759 Speaker 1: that Hillary Clinton beat him by three million votes uh 648 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: in the popular vote, and then Joe Biden beat him 649 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:15,759 Speaker 1: by more than seven and a half million votes in 650 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: the popular vote. The young people are not interested in 651 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,440 Speaker 1: the conspiracy theory and the lies. The new Americans are 652 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: not interested in that, and so the vast majority of 653 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:33,800 Speaker 1: the American public rejects the model of insurrection and propaganda 654 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,880 Speaker 1: and coups um. But what we have here is a 655 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: race between the will of the majority and popular government 656 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: versus a bag of tricks. And the tricks are basically 657 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: manipulations of the political system. So it's the gerrymandering of 658 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: our congressional districts, which is not in the Constitution or 659 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,040 Speaker 1: in federal law. The use of the filibuster to thwart 660 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,760 Speaker 1: voting rights legislation. Again, the filibuster not in the Constitution, 661 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: not in federal law. The passage in certain states of 662 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,439 Speaker 1: voters suppression statutes again, totally, it odds with what our 663 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,400 Speaker 1: constitutional history and values are. So that's the struggle that 664 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 1: we're in. But I don't want people to lose hope, 665 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,719 Speaker 1: because I think the vast majority of the people of 666 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,399 Speaker 1: every conceivable political stripe in party believe in our constitutional 667 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 1: democracy and don't want a republic based on lies and propaganda. 668 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: Is there a way, though, Congressman, to more effectively reach 669 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: out to the segment of the population that seems susceptible 670 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:50,560 Speaker 1: to this manipulation, that is disenfranchised and and feeling left out? 671 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: Or is that a waste of time? No, I don't 672 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:57,279 Speaker 1: think it's a waste of time. I think it's really 673 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: the central task. I mean, that's what I want young 674 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: people coming to work with me in the summer to 675 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,440 Speaker 1: be doing, to be reaching out neighbors to neighbors, friends 676 00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,320 Speaker 1: to friends all over the country. I think that Donald 677 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: Trump succeeded spectacularly in his two thousand sixteen campaign precisely 678 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,560 Speaker 1: because he appealed to a lot of real feeling in 679 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: the public that there was corruption in the political process, 680 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: that the parties had turned away from the interests and 681 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: the plight of working people. Across America, so we've got 682 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: to make sure that we're being responsive. I feel great 683 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,719 Speaker 1: about what we've done on infrastructure in the country, a 684 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,239 Speaker 1: trillion dollar infrastructure plan that we passed. I feel great 685 00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: about the Build Back Better Plan, which is about a 686 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:51,520 Speaker 1: massive investment in the social infrastructure, to reduce prescription drug prices, 687 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: to bring those down for people, to invest in universal 688 00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,760 Speaker 1: pre K for three year olds and four year olds, 689 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: to empower and liver eight our young working parents. Um, 690 00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,200 Speaker 1: this is what government's got to do. Government's got to 691 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: be an instrument of the common goods. So we got 692 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: to restore and renew everybody's faith in the ability of 693 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,000 Speaker 1: government to meet the needs of the people. But we're 694 00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,840 Speaker 1: not going to get that way through propaganda and stereotyping 695 00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,760 Speaker 1: and racism and all of the darkness of the tinth century, 696 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: which is what they're trying to bring back. We got 697 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: to move forward into this century, bringing everybody together, um, 698 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,319 Speaker 1: and confronting the problems of our time. I mean, how 699 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:34,720 Speaker 1: if we're spending all of our time fighting the proud 700 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: boys and the oathkeepers and political corruption, how are we 701 00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: going to deal with climate change, which is uh a 702 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: nightmare bearing down on all of us. You know, with 703 00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,880 Speaker 1: record forest fires out in the West and record drought 704 00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:52,000 Speaker 1: throughout the Midwest, and record flooding in the East, and 705 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: hurricanes of record velocity hitting the southern coast. Um, we've 706 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: got to confront the reality of climate change and we 707 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 1: don't time to be relitigating the fascist agenda from the 708 00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,439 Speaker 1: twentieth century. So do you think that the best way 709 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,719 Speaker 1: to change hearts and minds is to change lives and 710 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: that you do that by legislation the kind that you 711 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,520 Speaker 1: just mentioned, Um, And do you think that's the most 712 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: effective way to to reach out to some of these constituents. 713 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,919 Speaker 1: It's going to be a combination of legislation, as you say, 714 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: in education, and the legislation is something the government has 715 00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,160 Speaker 1: got to do to meet people's needs where they are. 716 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,880 Speaker 1: But education is something that political leaders and political parties 717 00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:42,640 Speaker 1: have got to do. We've got to educate people about 718 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: what facts really are so that people are not being 719 00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:51,359 Speaker 1: fed this constant diet of propaganda and fake news. Good 720 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: luck on that, but that's another that's a whole another podcast, 721 00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:01,120 Speaker 1: Congressman Um. Congressman Jamie Raskin your book is Unthinkable, Trauma, 722 00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: Truth and the trials of American Democracy. I think we 723 00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: talked about all of that today. So thank you so much, 724 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:12,000 Speaker 1: Congressman for your time. The pleasure has been all mine. Katie. 725 00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,120 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for reading my book and taking 726 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,360 Speaker 1: it seriously. I really appreciate that. Thanks so much for 727 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: listening everyone. And once again, because this episode contained conversations 728 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:29,040 Speaker 1: about depression and suicide, we wanted to give you the 729 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:33,320 Speaker 1: suicide lifeline number, and that is one eight hundred to 730 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: seven three eight to five. Five again, one hundred two 731 00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:50,919 Speaker 1: seven three eight to five. Next Question with Katie Kurik 732 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: is a production of My Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. 733 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,319 Speaker 1: The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The 734 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Laura and Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements 735 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by 736 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,719 Speaker 1: Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to 737 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,320 Speaker 1: sign up for my morning newsletter wake Up Call, go 738 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 1: to Katie correct dot com. You can also find me 739 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,800 Speaker 1: at Katie Currect on Instagram and all my social media channels. 740 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,200 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 741 00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to 742 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,000 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.