1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the home bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: I am very excited to bring to you the first 4 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: part of a two part conversation with my producer extraordinaire 5 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: at wok F Daily, Andrew Marcello. And if you all remember, 6 00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, we had a conversation with 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: our friend or in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel about 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: Generation Z men and how they are aligning with Donald 9 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: Trump and MAGA and the reasons for that, feeling left out, 10 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: the rise in misogyny, what is their role in place 11 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: in a modernizing society, And what Andrew had brought to 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: my attention is that, like these things did not happen 13 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: over night or transpire out of thin air, that these 14 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: young men have been reached through the gaming industry, and 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: how the right wing has utilized gaming culture and capitalized 16 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: off of it for their own means and political end, 17 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: and so in order for us to get to where 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: we are in present day, Andrew brings us through kind 19 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: of this extraordinary journey into gaming and where it was 20 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 1: like in the nineties and the early two thousands and 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: then how we get to where we are right now. 22 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: So this is part one of a two part conversation 23 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: with Andrew Marshello, folks, I am super excited. I don't 24 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: actually remember the last time that we did this, but 25 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: I feel like it was a couple of years ago. 26 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: But I am super excited to welcome from behind find 27 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: the production table, video and microphone, my producer here at 28 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: wok at Daily, Andrew Marcello, to talk about an issue 29 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: that we started in conversation with doctor Jonathan Metzel about 30 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: kind of gen Z's male gen Z turned to the 31 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: right and their like desire to connect with Donald Trump 32 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: and kind of what I refer to as toxic masculinity 33 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: and this push to the right by this younger generation. 34 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 1: And Andrew, you brought to my attention after Jonathan and 35 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: I were discussing this New York Times article that this 36 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: is not new and that it actually began as something 37 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: called gamer gate. And I say something called because for 38 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: those of us that exist outside of the gaming world 39 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: in industry, you may not have heard of this. And 40 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: so I want to give you, Andrew an opportunity one 41 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 1: to kind of explain that, explain game or gate, and 42 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: like just the title what it is, and then we 43 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 1: can get into a larger conversation about what's being fueled 44 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: inside of this community and how it's spilling over into politics. Right. 45 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, first of all, thank you so much for 46 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: bringing me back on This is, like you said, a 47 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: bit of a different context than I've been on to 48 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: discuss in the past, But I appreciate you inviting me 49 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: on to talk about this because also, as you said, 50 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 2: this wasn't something that I don't think this is something 51 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 2: that a lot of people outside of the gaming and 52 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: tech worlds really know about. It's not something that received 53 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: a lot of mainstream media coverage. And like maybe if 54 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: you're in something like this, like what we're talking about 55 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: right now, in the political world, you may know about 56 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: this and may have heard about it, and may have 57 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: at least heard like game or Gate, and possibly heard 58 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: of Miley Yanopolis and definitely heard of Steve Bannon, who 59 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: will get to But and that's sort of the lynchpin 60 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 2: for all this. So let's go back. Let's go way 61 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: back to nineteen ninety three, because this matters. In December 62 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three and going into nineteen ninety four, the 63 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: United States Senate Committees on Governmental Affairs and the Judiciary 64 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 2: held congressional hearings with executives for several video game companies, 65 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: including Nintendo and Sega, who were leading the industry back then. 66 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: If you remember the nineties, the Super Nintendo and the 67 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 2: Second Genesis were the hottest things at the time, at 68 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: least in America, and so executives from Nintendo and Sega 69 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: and some other big video game companies were called to 70 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: Congress for hearings about video game violence. And these were 71 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 2: sparked by Senator Joe Lieberman. 72 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: You yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah wow. The late Joe 73 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: Liuba okay. 74 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: Mm hmm, a staffer for Joe Lieberman, had a family 75 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: member who had gotten Mortal Kombat and Night Trap, which 76 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: is a game about teenage girls being haunted by like 77 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: vampiric monsters. It's very b movie, but just seeing like 78 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: full motion video of like I don't even want to say, 79 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: scantily clad, like girls in like pajamas, like dancing around 80 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 2: for the camera. Somehow this sparked his moral outrage, and 81 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: especially Moral Kombat sparked this moral outrage so much that 82 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: they held congressional hearings on it. This is important and 83 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: relevant because it sets the stage for people who play 84 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 2: video games video gamers to have a cultural identity, a 85 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 2: subcultural identity where they see themselves as persecuted and countercultural. 86 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 2: They have a hobby that is being attacked by outsiders 87 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 2: who don't fully understand what they're attacking. So this is important. Now, 88 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: going ahead about ten years, we have a Florida attorney 89 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 2: named Jack Thompson who you may not have heard of, 90 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: but if you're listening and happen to be in the 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 2: sort of online video game culture worlds twenty years ago. 92 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 2: Jack Thompson was someone who got a lot of attention 93 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 2: because he was there's no polite way to call someone 94 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: an ambulance chaser. He was disbarred in two thousand and eight, 95 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: and he basically anytime there was a violent crime that 96 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 2: he could sort of take advantage of. I'm characterizing this, 97 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: but the way that it came off was that he 98 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: would see these violent crimes in the news and attribute 99 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: them to video game violence, particularly the Grand Theft Auto series. 100 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: So he was something of a moral crusader against violent 101 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: video games. And this again reinforced the idea amongst people 102 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: who play video games, and especially people who play video 103 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 2: games and then go on the Internet to talk about 104 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 2: the video games they play. That video gaming is this 105 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: thing that isn't understood by the mainstream and is also 106 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 2: seen as violent and harmful even when it's being misconstrued. 107 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: So these two things really helped to set the stage 108 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: for what would then happen another decade later, when at 109 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: the same time as stuff is happening with video games 110 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: on the Internet, there's also a broader change happening on 111 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: online social media platforms such as Tumblr that are embracing 112 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: feminism and feminist social justice and feminist critical analysis of 113 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: pop culture media. So a woman named Anita Sarkisian had 114 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: a YouTube channel called Feminist Frequency and she released a 115 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: video series. 116 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: You've heard of this, yeah, yeah, yeah. 117 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: And it was called Tropes Versus Women in Video Games 118 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 2: and it basically took off. There are a few popular 119 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: videos in there. There was a two part series on 120 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: Damsels in Distress that really broke through, but the Tropes 121 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 2: Versus Women in Video Game series was something that really 122 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: broke out. You've heard of it. So, with this stage 123 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: having been set by the things I mentioned prior, the 124 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: reaction to Tropes verse as Women in Video Games played 125 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 2: into the gamer identity of we are persecuted by outsiders 126 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: who don't understand us. 127 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: Her point was like, here is this culture that when 128 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: you look at the videos that are including women in them, 129 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: they're playing out these stereotypes, and they're playing out these 130 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: caricatures that can be harmful and be dangerous. And she 131 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: wanted to lift up the fact that while society on 132 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: the outside in four to D may be moving forward, 133 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: that what is happening in the gaming industry doesn't seem 134 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: to have evolved in that same way. Tell us what 135 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: would happen just Herakeysian, because this, I mean this to 136 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: me is like is wild right? 137 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: We're actually really just setting the stage now. And like 138 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: you said, the world was starting to move on even 139 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: outside the online space, even outside Tumblr, like there was 140 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: a greater recognition of like women or people. I hate 141 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 2: to say it that way, but like the end tail 142 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: of third wave feminism and whatever it started to evolve 143 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 2: in in the late two thousands and early twenty tens 144 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 2: was something that really did break through in the mainstream, 145 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: even in such a casual way of like, we should 146 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: be showing women in things more because they make up 147 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 2: fifty percent of the population. And at the same time 148 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: as this, the demographics around video gaming were changing. The 149 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: SIMS was a really big breakout title. There were breakout 150 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,319 Speaker 2: titles online that people could play on their web browsers 151 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 2: on Facebook without having to have a video game console 152 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: or a high powered PC. So at the time, video 153 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 2: gaming was already approaching or maybe even at this statistic 154 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 2: where not only do women make up fifty percent of 155 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: the outside world population, but hello, gamers, women actually make 156 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 2: up close to or literally fifty percent of the population 157 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: of people who play video games. And then you get 158 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: into gamers trying to claim what is and isn't a 159 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 2: game for gamers. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. So 160 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: what happened to Anita is a sort of microcosm of 161 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: what would happen more broadly, because you get this backlash 162 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 2: from capital g gamers who have been conditioned by these 163 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: social events to see themselves as social outcasts, and like, 164 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 2: let's be real in real life. You know, in the 165 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 2: nineties and two thousands, if you were a person who 166 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: played video games and made that a part of your 167 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: cultural identity, you weren't necessarily a popular person unless you 168 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: played Madden or Call of Duty or the sims. You 169 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: were discussing something that a lot of people didn't understand 170 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: and quite frankly didn't want to engage with, and so 171 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: that contributes to the type of person who then goes 172 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: online to discuss this with people like them online and 173 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: get into this bubble and all this. Now we've set 174 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 2: the stage ten minutes later for the explosion of gamer 175 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 2: gate in twenty thirteen into twenty fourteen. 176 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: So let me say this because as a complete and 177 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: total outsider, I do think that to some extent, there 178 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: is a caricature of gamers that has been created that 179 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: raw I can totally picture it, and I think that 180 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: in some ways it has been like the gamer identity. 181 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: And I want you to talk about the gamer identity 182 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: because a question that I had was like, do you 183 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: consider yourself a gamer? And what does that mean for 184 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: those that identify as gamers Given the equation to the 185 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: parallels to in sell and right wing and toxic masculinity, 186 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: that is like, oh, the young white guy in a 187 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: basement of his parents' apartment that hasn't seen daylight in, 188 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: you know, in a week, and just plays video games 189 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: for ten twelve hours a day. That's like a caricature 190 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 1: and a stereotype that has been created. But there is 191 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: also something too what the right wing and the white supremacist, 192 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and misogynist movement has been able to do 193 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: to infiltrate this community. So I guess the first question 194 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: is do you identify as a gamer? And if not, 195 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: or if so, like, what does that identity actually mean. 196 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: To you listening right now? We are actually going to 197 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: get to what gamer gate is and how it happened 198 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: and how it ties in. But all this stage setting 199 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 2: really does matter. And so to get to the gamer 200 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 2: identity of it all. It's sad because I would love 201 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: to sit here and be like, I'm a gamer and 202 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 2: I'm proud, but that's hard to say amidst all of this. 203 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: And this is relevant to the anti social harassment movement 204 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: that was gamer gait, that became the thing that you're 205 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: talking about. The gamer identity became a lynchpin. And there 206 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,880 Speaker 2: was an article published by Lee Alexander, who became targeted 207 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: by mile Unanapolis and became targeted by Breitbart by name 208 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: in the headline of articles that they published on their 209 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: hate blog. She wrote an article called Gamers are Dead, 210 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: which was the focal point of the article, was saying, 211 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 2: the gamer identity is dead. There's no longer basically what 212 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: you're describing, gaming is no longer an enthusiast hobby that 213 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: targets a minority of people who approach it one specific 214 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: way and like one specific type of design. If you 215 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: like games where you shoot things in space, or you 216 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: like things where boys with swords fight monsters, you're into 217 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: video games. Video gaming, as we discussed, moved away from 218 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: that already by that point, and so at the same time, 219 00:13:54,160 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 2: the gamer identity, whether pejorative or positive, of you know, 220 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 2: someone by themselves in a room, sort of shut out 221 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: from society or at odds with society in some way, 222 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: was no longer useful, and gamers people who identified that 223 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: way hated it. They hated this idea that, like your 224 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 2: identity could be dead, which I understand, or even changing, 225 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: even evolving. Even if Lee Alexander had said gamer is 226 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: evolving as opposed to gamers are dead, I don't think 227 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: there would have been a different response because the response 228 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 2: wasn't to the statement gamers are dead. It was a 229 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: response to the sentiment of, like you said, things are 230 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: changing the world around you. Is changing, get with the times. 231 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: So to come back around, I don't self identify as 232 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 2: a gamer. Like I said, it kind of makes me 233 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 2: sad not to, but I'm a person who plays video games. 234 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 2: I am. I would consider myself a video gaming enthusiast. 235 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: I actually am someone who engages with video game stuff 236 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: online and I use it to late to people in 237 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 2: my real life. But I don't consider myself a capital 238 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: G gamer. I wouldn't really use that word in conversation, 239 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 2: and sadly, a lot of people I know if you 240 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 2: use that word in conversation, if you said, like you're 241 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: a gamer or I'm a gamer, the people I know 242 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: would cringe at that because of all this. And so 243 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: that's another Now we've sort of set the stage from 244 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 2: forward because the well around gamer became so poisoned because 245 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: of people like this, because of the type of person 246 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: who evolved into a very short amount of time, which 247 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 2: we will get too soon in two or three years, 248 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: into tiki torches in Charlottesville. So I think we're ready. 249 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: Now, So Andrew, this has been wonderful. The table is set, 250 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: the candles are lit, the china is out, and the 251 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: meal is on it, like, let's eat now tell us 252 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: how we get from gamer Gate tutiki torches in Charlottesville 253 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: to a population of young men Generation Z that is 254 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: finding their identity more aligned with MAGA and Trump than 255 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: they are with Democrats. 256 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: We've set this stage and still I find myself at 257 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: where to begin. So there is an independent game developer 258 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 2: named Zoe Quinn who in twenty thirteen, amidst other transformative 259 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,119 Speaker 2: games releasing games that aren't about shooting things or slashing swords, 260 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: they released a game called Depression Quest, which was a 261 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: text based adventure game. I don't know if you remember, 262 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: but they used to make games on like the Apple 263 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: to or the Macintosh where the whole game was text 264 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: and you would type like go forward, go backwards, pick 265 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: up the candle. So it was a sort of old 266 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: school throwback game, but it was about mental health and 267 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: encountering the world through the lens of dealing with mental 268 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: health struggles. Already, the Capitol G gamers do not like 269 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: Depression Quest. They do not like the amount of attention 270 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 2: Depression Quest gets on websites. And then the day in 271 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen that Depression Quest released on Steam, which is 272 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 2: a PC platform. It's probably the most popular PC platform 273 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 2: to play video games, millions upon millions upon millions of 274 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: people you Steam. The same day that it released, Zoe 275 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: Quinn's X released a manifesto online that accused them of 276 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: infidelity and also implied that. 277 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: That they got there by sleeping their way to the top. 278 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: Exactly, they got that coverage by sleeping with members of 279 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: the gaming press. That was the allegation, and even even 280 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 2: implicitly because this person tried to go back and say, well, 281 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 2: it was my wording, like act like they didn't they 282 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 2: this one single thing, a jilted X making accusations which 283 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: in the whole grand scheme of things doesn't matter whether 284 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: they were true or not. This is what caused the 285 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: entire thing. So gamers latched onto this, said, Zoe Quinn 286 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: is getting coverage because of outdated sexist tropes that are 287 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,719 Speaker 2: being fed into It became a harassment campaign very quickly, 288 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 2: and it was called quinnspiracy. And so they would be 289 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: in places the people who were involved in this because 290 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: they have nothing better to do with their lives, like 291 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: actually go play video games. They have nothing better to 292 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 2: do with their lives, then go online coordinate harassment against 293 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: a person. It's almost like they treated it like a game. 294 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 2: But when you harass someone and you're going online and 295 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 2: posting about quinspiracy and all this stuff, you're kind of 296 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: telling on yourselves. 297 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: So this is the irony for me because I'm just like, so, 298 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: you're pissed off that your identity is being called out 299 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: and your community is being called out, and then you 300 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: engage in the very activities that your community is being 301 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: held accountable for. So, oh, we're not all sexist, we're 302 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 1: not all misogynists, we're not all these in cell types. 303 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: But then all of the harassment and rhetoric is around 304 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: raping and killing and torturing women. 305 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very please excuse my language, but it's very like, 306 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: how dare these bitches say I'm misogynists? 307 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: Yeah? It's wild. 308 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't even think about that angle, the 309 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 2: angle of like at the same time, literally the same 310 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: time that tropes versus women, which we will get back to, 311 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 2: is running. They're doing all this. So to make this 312 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: part short, they rebranded conspiracy as gamer gait. They had 313 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 2: started calling Zoe Quinn LW, which stood for literally who 314 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 2: is to act like they weren't talking about harassing Zoe Quinn, 315 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: and then they started harassing other women and fem presenting 316 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: people who criticized video games and video gamer culture. So 317 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: Anita Sarkisian was a target. Lee Alexander, who gamers are Dead, 318 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: was a target. Brianna Wu who manages to still be 319 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: around and get headlines, it was a target. And when 320 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 2: I want to be clear to anyone who's listening, when 321 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 2: we're talking about harassment, this is bad in and of itself, 322 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 2: but we're not just talking about like sending someone posts 323 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: and being like I'm gonna do violent act to you. 324 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: It went beyond online threats, which again are bad enough 325 00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: and need to be taken seriously, but it went into 326 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: finding members of their family, getting in contact with members 327 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 2: of their family, leaking their addresses, sending the police to houses. 328 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, doxing and all of. 329 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: That, doxing and swatting, which are techniques that have been 330 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 2: talked about on this program before, but essentially, yes, use 331 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,159 Speaker 2: it weaponizing the police, which if you're a listener to this, 332 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: you're aware of how the police can get weaponized. I 333 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 2: imagine a weaponizing the police against people, against against women 334 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: and people perceived as women for the act of being 335 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: a woman, and saying that men shouldn't be doing the 336 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 2: things that men do, or just you know, happening to 337 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: exist as a woman and have some sort of perceived 338 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: moral failing that you as an individual and individuals coming 339 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: together as a little hate group have you know, hate 340 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: for I don't think it's coincidental that like, oh, this 341 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 2: attractive mid twenties woman who cheated on her partner and 342 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 2: is in tech. So it's like, as a gamer, I 343 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 2: do want to sort of set the stage of you know, 344 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: it's embarrassing, but I've been in circles like this, Like 345 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 2: when there's a woman in your circle, she is like 346 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: the center of everything because it's like, oh my god, 347 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: a girl's in our boys club. A girl has chosen 348 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: to be in our boys club, A girl wants to 349 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 2: hang around us. And so it's like the worst thing 350 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: that could happen happened. The gamer girl betrayed them, their 351 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 2: imaginary gamer GF. Like this could be your girlfriend, This 352 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 2: could be your gamer girlfriend a cheating on you and 353 00:21:58,400 --> 00:21:59,360 Speaker 2: then getting famous. 354 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: This is where I see the relationship and I want, 355 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: with like the couple of minutes that we have left 356 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: for you to get to Steve Bannon and like how 357 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: this now presents itself outside of or still withinside of 358 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: the gaming community, but now has presented itself in politics 359 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: in a very real way where this kind of again 360 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: i'm gonna say in cell type thinking, this kind of 361 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: deep misogyny and hatred for women. How you see it 362 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 1: present itself inside of Project twenty twenty five, inside of MAGA, 363 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: inside of trump Ism, and how it's turning what has 364 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: been this online world into real, live votes and issues. 365 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: It's funny that you bring up in cell and someone 366 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 2: more qualified than me can talk about because I didn't 367 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: even think about this. The intersection between the rise of 368 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 2: gamer gait and the rise of in cell culture. There's 369 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 2: definitely intersection there, but there's also sort of like, these 370 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: are two individual communities that have crossover. That's unfortunately to 371 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 2: be stereotypical. If you're spending twelve hours a day spent 372 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 2: playing video games, that leaves twelve hours a day that 373 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 2: you're not socializing with your preferred potential sex partners. But anyway, 374 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: there was definitely a simultaneous rise of like young men 375 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 2: who are sexually frustrated and feel they have no options, 376 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 2: which again I can't really speak to. And then also 377 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 2: the gamer gait type culture. But anyway, enter Steve Bannon. 378 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 2: We've gotten here, so enter Steve Bannon and enter Breitbart. 379 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: Some people may remember the name Milo Yanopolis because for 380 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: a little bit he was trying to crossover as a 381 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: legitimate media person and no one would have him. He 382 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: got hired by Steve Bannon to Breitbart as their tech 383 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 2: massive air quotes journalist. And you can actually still go 384 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 2: on Breitbart, and you can go on breitbart dot com 385 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 2: slash tag slash gamergate and see the type of posts 386 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 2: that Milenopolis and some other people at Breitbart were making. 387 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 2: But it was a lot of even in the headlines, 388 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: it encourages harassing women. It celebrates when their targets leave 389 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: gaming and leave gaming journalism, their career is over, they 390 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 2: have given up and decided they're no longer going to 391 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: fight this, and Breitbart basically goes, hooray, yep, bee, we won. 392 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,159 Speaker 2: We got another one. And there's one specific headline that 393 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: I wrote down. It was about quote, why so many 394 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 2: angry women have blue hair? So if you ever hear 395 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 2: the whole blue haired liberal or like liberals have blue 396 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 2: hair and pronouns, that literally comes from Breitbart and Gamergate 397 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, and Steve Bannon had a quote in a 398 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 2: book by Joshua Green called Devil's Bargain where he was 399 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 2: asked about Milo and asked about Gamergate, and this is 400 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 2: Steve Banner quote quote, I realized Milo could connect with 401 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: these kids right away. And this is now ten years ago. 402 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate 403 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,760 Speaker 2: or whatever, in sell whatever, that's my editorial. Go back 404 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: to the quote, they come in through Gamergate or whatever, 405 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: and then get turned onto politics and Trump, and you're 406 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: there on Breitbart. If you're on Reddit, say, if you're 407 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 2: on the Kotaku in Action subreddit, which is where these 408 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,600 Speaker 2: people met up, you would see headlines for Breitbart, and 409 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 2: then you click through the headlines to Breitbart, and then 410 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: on the side you see articles about Trump and articles 411 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: about whatever other heinous stuff that Breitbart is promoting. And 412 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 2: then on the flip side, if you're a conservative person 413 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 2: who's in the bright bart world, if you're in the 414 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 2: burgeoning alt right, because that's what that became, then you're 415 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: gonna see articles that say, why do so many angry 416 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 2: women have blue hair? And you, as an alt writer 417 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: or whatever they were called before the term alt right 418 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: became a thing. You're gonna then get into gamer gate. 419 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 2: So Steve Bannon was feeding all these different types of people, 420 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: people who are already hardwired to be hardcore conservatives, capital 421 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: g gamers who dislike women and in cells and whatever 422 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 2: other groups all through the same funnel. That funnel all 423 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: takes these all these people, swirls them through and leads 424 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 2: them to Donald Trump, And in August twenty sixteen, Steve 425 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: Bannon was hired as the chief executive of Trump's presidential campaign. 426 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: This is wild as fuck, Like it is so like 427 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 1: I have to say, this was really startling to me. 428 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: And this isn't like conspiratory. I just want to mention it, 429 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: Like you can go online now and see and see 430 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: all the stuff I'm talking about. 431 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: But it's like the fact that these things were happening, 432 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:07,719 Speaker 1: this organization and this formation of essentially this hub of 433 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity turning against women and progress and like all 434 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: of these things, and they found like this great fertile 435 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: watering hole to go to and began that work twenty 436 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: years ago. And now you're seeing the literally the fruits 437 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: of that come to bear. And the fact that there 438 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: has been no disruption. There has been no alternative, and 439 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: if there has, then that will be a conversation for 440 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: another day. But I think that I'm so grateful for 441 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: you bringing this to my attention, because again, if you 442 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: don't exist in these worlds, you're like, how does this 443 00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: shit happen? Like how did this spill over into politics? 444 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: And you literally walked us through this handling Gretel breadcrumb 445 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: place to kind of get to where we are right now. 446 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 2: There's one more thing I want to point out as 447 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: someone who was in that world at the time, not 448 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: like as a gamer gator, but like seeing it happen, 449 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: because I was online and in gamer world seeing the 450 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: Trump campaign rise. It was the same social techniques. When 451 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: you would I mentioned literally who before, you would say 452 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 2: gamer gates about Zoe Quinn, gamer gates about harassing Zoe Quinn, 453 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: and they would say literally who. They would make up 454 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,959 Speaker 2: these lies that were not remotely based in reality and 455 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: just insist on them, and insist on them, and insist 456 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 2: on them. They would use sardonic memes to further their 457 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 2: agenda and just act like, well, the memes says it, 458 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 2: so it must be true. All of these techniques very 459 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: quickly became weapons of the Trump campaign that propelled him 460 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: to popularity amongst the same type of people who were 461 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: already drawn in by these propagandist techniques. 462 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: I mean, this is extraordinary, it really is. It's extraordinary. 463 00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 1: It's illuminating. It's readily disturbing because I don't see where 464 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: it is going to be disrupted. 465 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,239 Speaker 2: You have to recognize it before you can disrupt it. 466 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: Exactly on the other side, And that was the point 467 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: of this conversation today because it was something that you 468 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: brought to my attention that the New York Times article 469 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: that I discussed with Jonathan brought to my attention about 470 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: Generation Z. And there is just like so much more 471 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: that is here. 472 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,920 Speaker 2: That's why Trump picked jd Vance. I wanted to get 473 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: to that. We didn't get all the way from twenty 474 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: seventeen to jd Vance, But that's the culmination of it. 475 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we can do a part too, because 476 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,239 Speaker 1: there's so much more here. So we will leave it 477 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: there today Andrew and pick up and do a part 478 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: two of the question that I think a lot of 479 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: people have been asking, which is why JD. Vance of 480 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: all people? And I think that that would be a 481 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: good place to pick back up. As always, I just 482 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: want to thank you, appreciate you one for the work 483 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: that you do and have done for years on WOKF. 484 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: But for this particular conversation, this is part one, folks. 485 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 1: We will come back with part two because there is 486 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: just so much here and in order to disrupt something, 487 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: to Andrew's point, you actually need to understand it, and 488 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: that is the point of this conversation. So Andrew, appreciate you, thank. 489 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: You so much. Here's my teas for part two. Gamergate 490 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: is but a small subsect of what the pro Trump, 491 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 2: altright white nationalist movement became in twenty seventeen. So that's 492 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: for next time. Brilliant. 493 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on WOKEF. 494 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: As always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, 495 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.