WEBVTT - Tyler Grimm 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.600 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcasts. 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.720 My guest today is Tyler Grimm, who's chief counsel for 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:21.840 Policy and Strategy at the Judiciary Committee of the US 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:23.440 House of Representatives. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.560 Tyler, you went to see Roger Daltrey last night? How 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:27.760 was he? 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:31.360 It was awesome for being eighty years old. He really 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:34.600 brought it. I gotta say it was kind of f 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.280 I've probably seen The Who a dozen times in my life, 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:43.239 never saw Adultrey alone. He was great. He could tell 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:46.680 he really wanted to swing the microphone, but eighty that 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:49.640 just wasn't happening. He did bring it out for the encore. 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:55.680 We got a couple couple of Mike throws. He was awesome. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.320 You know, he's got Pete Townsend's brother Simon up there 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.400 with him. He seems to be really happy doing his 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:07.120 own thing. He you know, played some covers, played mostly 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.840 Whose songs, played a couple of his original songs. It 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:11.720 was great. 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.000 Okay, you're a relatively young guy. How do you become 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:18.040 a fan of the Who? 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.920 I grew up on the Who. My parents were really 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:28.000 into music. We started going to concerts when I was 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.440 like five years old. That's basically like what we did 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:33.880 when we grew up. We didn't go to a lot 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.399 of sports games. We went to concerts. I would look 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:39.360 and see what concerts were coming to town, beg my 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.560 parents to take me. I think my first concert was 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.600 Elton John and Billy Joel and the second one was 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.760 Tom Petty h And I was just addicted to live 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.920 music from a really young age. My household was it 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.600 was the Stones, it was the Who, primarily the Who 0:01:57.240 --> 0:02:01.240 you know later Pearl Jam, but it was a rock 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:01.880 and roll house. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.080 How about acts that are of a newer vintage? Are 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:06.080 you a fan of those? 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.160 Definitely? I do. Like I really love Pearl Jam's new album. 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.320 I think I think, uh it's there, it's their best 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.880 piece of work in years. Really like I like Gaslight 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.280 Ants them a lot. I like Camp a lot. I 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:28.040 saw Zach Bryan earlier this year. He was awesome newer music, 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.640 sort of of the rock variety. But I listen to anything. 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:37.360 Okay, So I'm the Judiciary Committee. How much can you 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.240 talk music with? And are the members fans of music? 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:47.680 Uh, there's a lot of music fans on the Judiciary Committee, Actually, Bob, 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.040 it is you know, to set the stage here like 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.760 music and movies. We are the primary committee for the 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:02.240 entertainment industry. Anything copyright, any IP, anything anti trust comes 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:07.040 through the committee. And we have some members that, you know, 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:10.280 I'm not sure listen to all that much music. Other 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:14.680 members that play instruments, that are in bands. We've got 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:17.640 a member, Kelly Armstrong, who will be the next governor 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:22.680 of North Dakota. I went to the Zach Bryan concert 0:03:22.720 --> 0:03:25.640 with him. Earlier this year. We saw Tyler Childers together. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.080 He loves Camp. That's another new band I love, sort 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.079 of great musical taste. There's a lot of music talk 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:34.760 on the committee. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.120 How old is Keller? 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.440 Oh, I'm reluctant to guess, but I'd say I give 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.480 him the benefit of the doubt and say early forties. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:50.800 Okay, So if we start talking about copyright issues the 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:54.720 Judiciary Committee, are they pretty familiar with these things or 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:56.760 do you have to brief them and bring them up 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:57.280 to speed. 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.320 You've got brief them, right, I mean, you've got a 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.800 brief members on any issue, and it varies member to members. 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.920 Some people are super familiar. They've been doing this for 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.840 a quarter century or more. They've seen a number of 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.120 laws passed, very familiar with the issues and the players 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.520 and what's going on. Others are totally new to this 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:23.000 but want to learn. You've got some that aren't there 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.280 to do copyright, aren't there to do music issues, and 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:29.200 you know, they want to understand it for that day 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.039 and then you know, maybe move on to the next thing. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.400 So not everybody's educated, certainly outside America about the ins 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.840 and outs of the government. What exactly is the Judiciary Committee? 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:47.799 Sure, so we've obviously got the Congress, which is comprised 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:52.640 of the House and the Senate. In the House, all 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:55.200 the work that's done to get a bill to the 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:58.160 floor before it becomes law is really done at committees, 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.280 and the committee's di eied off work by topic area. 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:08.279 And so we've got all intellectual property at the Judiciary Committee. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.720 So if you're going to write a bill that has 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:15.080 to do with patents or trademarks or copyrights, it will 0:05:15.120 --> 0:05:18.440 come before the committee. The committee will have what we 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:24.880 call a markup where we'll consider bills, try to amend them, 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.120 debate them, and then vote on them. If a bill 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:32.320 is successfully voted out of the committee, that's sort of 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.480 primed for floor action, and the floor could take up 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.000 the bill, and then you see what the Senate does 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:40.640 and see if the President will sign it. 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.840 Okay, let's start at the ground floor. There's a Judiciary 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:47.560 Committee in the House. Is there an equivalent committee in 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:48.160 the Senate? 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.760 There is Judiciary Committee in the Senate, and they both 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:58.320 have sort of subcommittees more dedicated to specific issue areas. 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.679 So there's an intellectual property subcommittee in both the House 0:06:03.760 --> 0:06:05.479 and the Senate, and that's where a lot of this 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:06.320 work will get done. 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:10.240 Okay. So let's say I'm someone who wants a passage 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.719 of a bill. Where do I start with the House 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:15.520 or the Senate. Does it make any. 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.320 Difference, doesn't make a lot of doesn't make a lot 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.719 of difference. There are some exceptions, some kinds of bills 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:28.000 have to originate in the House, but in this case, 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.520 by and large, either chamber a bill could start it. 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:37.880 So let's say that you're someone who sees some problem 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.480 in the music royalty space and you think there needs 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:46.279 to be a fixed You probably call your member, ideally 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.760 a member of the Judiciary committee, pitch them on the issue, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.160 try and get them to write a bill. They'd write 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.560 a bill, it would get introduced into the House, it 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:59.440 would get referred to the Judiciary Committee, and then the 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:03.760 Judiciary Committee could take up that bill, and the rest 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:05.039 of that process would play out. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:10.880 Okay, so we hear about the House and the Senate 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:16.360 having different bills and then needing to come up with one. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:17.239 How does that work? 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:26.000 Yeah, so this happens all the time. Usually, you know, 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.160 let's say bill gets all the way through in the House, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.120 passes on the floor, everybody's happy. A bill that's slightly 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:39.080 different makes it all the way through the Senate more 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:41.440 often than not. As a House guy, I'm sad to 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.480 say the House will take up the Senate bill. Sometimes 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.480 the Senate takes up the House bill, and then whichever 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.000 one passes both chambers will get sent to the President 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:50.960 to be signed it to law. 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.840 Okay, so let's assume I'm oblivious and I want to 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.120 introduce a bill. I want to get something done. In 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:03.200 terms of the House, welir Senate, they're essentially equal, and 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.920 it's more of who I know to get started. What 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.200 would motivate me to go to one chamber or the other? 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:12.240 I'd say, it's really it's who you know, who you 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.240 think is going to champion the issue, who has a 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.800 history of working on these issues. Maybe who has seniority, 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.160 who's got more clout, and one of the chambers, who's 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.720 closer to leadership that would put the bill on the floor. 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:27.920 All of that, someone's going to be a good advocate 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:28.200 for you. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:33.439 Really. Okay, you talked about copyright. The Judiciary Committee in 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.520 the House, which is where you work. What other issues 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.400 do they address? What other subcommittees? What is the whole 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:41.959 of the Judiciary Committee. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:49.160 That's a great question, Bob. So you've got intellectual property there, 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.560 so all the things I mentioned. You've got the whole 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:58.440 court system the federal judiciary. You've got antitrust, so anti 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:03.640 trust at the FTC and and you've got immigration, You've 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:10.840 got crime, you've got First Amendment issues. It is a 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.359 large array of issues at Judiciary. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:16.240 Okay, just you know, to paint the picture. There's the 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.400 Judiciary Committee. What are some of the other committees the 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:20.080 House has? 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.640 Sure, So there's the Budget Committee. Obviously they're writing the budget. 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.480 You've got the Energy and Commerce Committee. You know, they're 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:33.199 dealing with healthcare and energy and sort of a lot 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:38.000 of economy wide issues. You've got the Ways and Means Committee, 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:42.160 which is dealing with taxes, You've got the Science Committee, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.880 which is dealing with all sorts of science issues, including 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:48.079 like NASA. You've got the Veterans Affairs Committee. I think 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:53.400 there are you know, eighteen ish committees on Capitol Hill. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.520 And if you're in one committee, are you in that 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.440 committee only? Or could you be in multiple committees? 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:05.479 So there are some committees which we call a committees, 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:09.520 and those are sort of exclusive, most notably like A 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.560 Ways and Means and Energy and Commerce, and more often 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:15.200 than not, if you're on that committee, you're only on 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.040 that committee and you're not serving on other committees. But 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.720 other than that, you could be on two, three, four committees. 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:23.360 They keep them busy. 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.920 Okay, how many people are on the Judiciary Committee? 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:28.280 It's about forty two. 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:32.160 And how do they decide who's on the committee? 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:38.000 Uh, there's something called the Steering Committee, and the Steering 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.000 Committee basically gets together and they assign members uh, the 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.199 various committees based on member interest in where there are vacancies. 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.000 But typically, once you're on a committee as a member 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.920 of Congress, you stay there. You're not going to kick 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.040 you off unless you move up to an a committee 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.200 or you you know, try to move over to some 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.800 other committee. I think they really value the institutional knowledge 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.280 that builds up. We're talking about copy right. You know, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.880 if you were there for a bunch of these fights, 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.599 you've sort of seen how it all plays out. You 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:12.800 can use that knowledge in the future. There's a premium 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.760 people put on that, so you know, we like when 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:16.680 people stick around. 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:22.600 Okay, Obviously the constituency of the House changes every two years, 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.440 So how would that affect the makeup of the committee. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:33.240 Sure, so, Uh, you know, if a member loses or 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.640 resigns or isn't there anymore, Uh, they won't be on 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:38.960 the committee. That's lot'll have to be filled. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.560 Well, let's say, you know, we have an election and 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.480 let's just say they're four hundred and fifty eight members 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:47.040 of Congress. 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:51.320 Is that a correct on a good day? A good day, 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:52.440 We've got. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:55.319 Leave about the bulls, like I got to go back 0:11:55.360 --> 0:11:57.520 to school. I don't know what you know, especially with 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.800 Nate Silver with the exact numbers four fifty ye, I 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.800 don't know where I got that from. But let's say hypothetically, 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.000 it's you know, two seventeen to eighteen, and then there's 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.400 an election and one party ends up with one hundred 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.000 and the other one ends up with three hundred plus. 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:17.560 Can't believe I got the number of representatives wrong? People 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.280 to kill me. Would that effect the percentage of one 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.239 party or the other party and making up the Judiciary Committee? 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.120 Not necessarily, I've I think it's been quite some time 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.479 since we've had a disparity that big. You know, typically 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.680 the ratios remain about the same, you know, no matter 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:45.040 who's in charge. There's so many Republicans, so many Democrats 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:49.520 on the committee. In the Senate, it is proportional. The 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.400 Senate's a whole other animal. The Senate's sort of like 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.880 the Committee's laws are allocated proportional to who controls the chamber. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:01.480 Okay, So you're saying on the Judicial Eury Committee, essentially 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.920 half are Democrats and half Republicans. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.040 Well, no, there's a who's ever in the majority has 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:10.439 a majority of the committee slots also, but the ratio 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:12.280 between them basically stays the same. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:14.720 It defined ratio in this case. 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:22.440 So if there are you know, twenty five Republicans on 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:29.000 the committee and seventeen Democrats, it would that that would flip. 0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:33.679 You mean, if the other party took control in the 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:38.200 same numbers exactly exactly, Okay, So let's say, you know, 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.520 I'm a member of the Juiciary Committee and my party 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:46.920 does poorly in the next election, will I lose my seat? 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:54.160 You could? You could if you know you're a newer 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.880 member of the committee and the ratio gets cut to 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:00.320 the point where like they've got to eliminate. It's some 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.719 slots you could lose your seat on the committee. 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.000 And who is chairperson in the committee? 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.840 The chair right now is Jim Jordan from Ohio, and 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.200 the ranking members Jerry Nadler from New York. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.880 And how do they pick those That's. 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.160 Picked by the steering committee. Also in the it's a 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.760 little different on the the Democrats have a different process. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.840 It's sort of the whole caucus desize. The Republican side, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.760 there is a steering committee process and they sort of 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.280 vote on who's going to be chair. Once you're chair, 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.560 you've got the job for six years. If you're a Republican. 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.080 Democrats do it a little differently. You can kind of 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:44.720 be chair in perpetuity. 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:53.200 So the steering committee. Each party has the equivalent thereof 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:58.359 that's right, that's right, okay, And whoever has the majority 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:00.800 gets to decide the chairperson. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.120 Yeah, you get to decide your relative leadership on the committee. 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.000 So if you're in the minority, you would choose the 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.400 ranking member, you know, the top person on the committee 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.720 for the minority, and if you're in the majority, you 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.400 choose the chairperson, top person on there for the majority. 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:23.640 As a practical matter, what does it mean if you 0:15:23.720 --> 0:15:25.920 were the party that is in control and you're the 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.760 chairperson as opposed to the opposing party. 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:36.120 Bob, it means everything. Really, the House is a majoritarian institution, 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.480 and so when you're in control, you set the agenda, 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:42.680 you decide what bills move, what bills don't move. 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:46.840 Okay, I'm trying to rationalize how they came up with 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.600 four fifty eight maybe five thirty eight and eight silver. 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.560 You know, I made a mistake there, it is I 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.600 have to own it. Not going to cut it. So, 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.200 if you are on the Judiciary Committee, might you be 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:00.880 on multiple subcommittee? 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:03.440 Yes, you definitely are. You're probably on at least two, 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:04.200 maybe three. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:11.640 Okay, So there is a specific subcommittee for intellectual there is, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.520 and what would be the breadth what would be some 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.400 of the issues that would be addressed in that subcommittee? 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.680 So it's it, And to be clear, it's intellectual property 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:26.360 and the courts and the Internet. Those are the three 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.320 sort of categories of topics under the subcommittee's jurisdiction. So, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.840 you know, we've had a bunch of hearings this year 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:39.560 on AI and copyright. We've had hearings on other sort 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:45.680 of music royalty issues. There is a hearing just yesterday 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:52.720 on third party litigation funding. We've had hearings on patentability 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.440 and patentability related to AI. It really runs the gamut 0:16:57.480 --> 0:16:59.680 of all the all the AI, all the all the 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:00.440 IP issues. 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:06.000 Rather, what's the third pretty litigation funding? What is that? 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:12.280 So this is the There are a bunch of lawsuits 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:18.359 where we'll say one company sues another and the accusation 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:24.120 is that, you know, the company doing the suing has 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.919 a third party backer. We'll say, someone with a you know, 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.240 financial stake and the outcome of the case and that party, 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.280 that sort of third party might not be known to 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:39.040 the public or to the court. And so there's a 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:44.320 movement of foot to get transparency so people know who's suing, 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:47.240 what their motivations are, who's sort of backing the lawsuit. 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.520 Okay, as we speak, there's a big brew haha with Spotify, 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.359 which now has more than music has books and they're 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:01.240 bundling and they want to reduce rate. Is this something 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.960 a that the Justice Committee might address? B Is it 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:06.600 something you're already hearing about. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:11.520 It's definitely something we're hearing about. You know. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:12.640 It is. 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:18.320 The music publishers very upset about the situation. You know, 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:23.199 they think that Spotify is is exploiting a loophole an 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:29.280 agreement that they made in twenty twenty two. Spotify basically 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:33.720 contends that you know, everybody signed off on this, that 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.760 the publishers are you know, in fact, making more money 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:38.840 a year over year and they shouldn't have anything to 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.280 complain about that. It was I think totally foreseeable that 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:46.919 they'd introduced audiobooks onto the platform. 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:51.160 So okay, that's the issue. To what degree is something 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.920 happening on the issue Justice Committee now? 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.359 So the committee you hear when when these issues happen, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.760 there are a lot of sort of funny thing about 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:06.640 the music space. A lot of this happens between those parties. 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:11.040 You know, they might they're yelling at each other, trying 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.240 to figure out some settlement, they might sue each other, 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:17.040 but at the same time they're keeping the Committee apprized 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:21.359 of this. They might get members of Congress to send 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:26.199 letters complaining in one direction or the other. But for 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.840 right now, the issue is kind of new. I haven't 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:35.960 heard of anyone, you know, doing anything in particular about 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.960 these complaints. I know that we're monitoring it, though, and 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:41.480 we'll kind of we'll see what happens. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:45.879 Okay. When you say getting someone to write a letter, 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.960 you mean a member writing a letter to the Judiciary Committee. 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.080 No, I mean a member of the Judiciary Committee or 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:55.840 even a member off of the committee. This is a 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:02.200 really common practice. You know, one maybe maybe the songwriters, 0:20:02.240 --> 0:20:06.240 maybe the publishers, may be you know, somebody else interested 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:10.720 in this will say, hey, you know, ex member, I'm 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:13.959 really upset about this. I think this is a great injustice, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.920 or I think that, you know, the songwriters are wrong 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.600 to be upset about this. Send a letter to the 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.800 other party asking questions and sort of raise the issue, 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.840 and that kind of telegraph to the parties the Congress 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.359 is paying attention. Maybe there will be a hearing, Maybe 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:33.760 this will get elevated. It's kind of more often than 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:36.080 not to put people back on their heels. 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:39.399 So what does it take to have a hearing? 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:44.360 Well, so at the IP Subcommittee, which is shaired right 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:48.640 now by darryl Isa from California and the ranking members 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:52.159 Hanna Johnson in Georgia, they do most things on a 0:20:52.359 --> 0:20:55.600 bipartisan basis, and they'll sort of agree we're gonna have 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.639 a hearing, but it's really it's up to him. He'll say, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.000 you know, next week, I'm going to have a hearing 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:07.040 on you know, patentability of AI generated you know, inventions, 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:12.800 and it'll basically happen. The staff will identify witnesses that 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:16.320 can talk about these things, will convene a panel, they'll 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.200 get sworn in, we'll have a hearing. It'll last about 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.840 two hours. Members will ask questions, and that's kind of 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:23.400 the ballgame. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.360 Okay, so right now, the Republicans have the majority, so 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.919 ISA can call or not call a hearing. Can a Democrat, 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:36.600 who is the minority right now, call a hearing? No? 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:43.000 They can't. Okay, there's like a there's a funky exception 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:48.439 to that that I won't bore you with, but generally speaking, no, 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:51.880 they you know, they can't call a hearing. They're sort 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.320 of relying on on the majority to call a hearing. 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.639 But you know, I think the majority of hearings that 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.159 mister reis Is proposed have been by part of and 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:02.840 just giving the given the nature of the subcommittee. 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.640 Okay, so it's not really usually a combative process. One 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:09.520 party wants it and one party doesn't. 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:12.480 No, not in this space. So that's not how these 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.159 issues break down. It's not really like a red versus 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.080 blue thing. There's you know, other things going on that 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:21.280 sort of divide members. 0:22:22.560 --> 0:22:25.439 Okay, so let's just use, for an example, the music industry. 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.080 I gotta bug up my rear end and for whatever 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.560 channel I reach, ISA, what's it going to take to 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.840 actually have a hearing where you might say, hey, all 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.760 this stuff is in evidence, I don't need a hearing. 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.280 He's got to be convinced that it's it's sort of 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.680 worth gathering the members of the committee and hearing testimony 0:22:43.680 --> 0:22:47.000 on this. Sometimes it's we might consider more often than not, 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.000 it's like we're going to consider legislation on this topic. 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:51.840 So we need to get a better understanding. We have 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:55.760 to build a legislative record of testimony in support or 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:59.120 against a bill. But you know, it's up to him 0:22:59.160 --> 0:23:02.200 if you came in and how persuasive meeting and he 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:03.080 to call a. 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:07.320 Hearing, okay, And why the two hour limit. 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:09.880 There's no two hour limit. I'm just that's an approximate 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:12.000 time for about the length of the subcommittee hearing. 0:23:13.160 --> 0:23:17.280 So let's assume we schedule a hearing. Does everybody on 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:18.600 the subcommittee show up? 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.359 They make their best effort to show up. As you noted, 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:27.240 members are on multiple committees, so they're very busy. Most 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.280 people try and come for at least part of it. 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:32.800 You know, some hearings you'll have everyone there the whole time. 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:36.440 Other times, you know, attendance can be lower than that. 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:43.600 Let's assume we have a hearing. How do we apportion 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:46.959 time amongst the members who are in attendance. 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:50.800 You've got five minutes to ask questions? 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.800 And can you ever can da all? Isus in charge? Now? 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:58.199 Can he ever say? Well, you know, you're on a 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:00.080 good thread. You got a few more minutes. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:03.480 Not really, that's very frowned upon and not allowed for 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.040 in the rules. You can do anything by what's called 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:10.120 unanimous consent. Really, you could say, you know, like if 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:14.600 nobody objects, they could give whoever, you know, some extra time, 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:17.840 allow the witness to answer more questions. They could also 0:24:17.920 --> 0:24:19.959 do a second round where they'll go around and everybody 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:21.160 gets five minutes again. 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:26.280 And what if for some reason, because I'm spacing out, 0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:29.240 or is it another sub committee, I get my five 0:24:29.280 --> 0:24:33.520 minutes and I asked questions if somebody already asked, let's. 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:34.960 See, I think you hope nobody notices. 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:40.720 Probably, Okay, so let's soon we're going to have a hearing. 0:24:42.000 --> 0:24:46.200 How many people might testify? And how do you decide 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:47.600 who actually is testified? 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:51.320 Got four people testify? The staff will reach out to 0:24:51.359 --> 0:24:54.359 a bunch of witnesses, the people they think could be witnesses, 0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:57.880 sort of feel them out, get a sense of their expertise, 0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:01.879 and then you know, if it makes sense to have 0:25:01.960 --> 0:25:05.840 them there and they're available, they'll they'll show up. So 0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.600 it's only four, No, No, it could be as many 0:25:09.400 --> 0:25:14.359 as as many as as the chair wants to have. Really, 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:17.320 sometimes there are multiple panels. You know, you might have 0:25:17.359 --> 0:25:20.040 a panel of government witnesses and then a panel of 0:25:20.800 --> 0:25:25.840 expert witnesses. Sometimes it's one, you know, when we have 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:34.280 like the copyright register up, it's usually just her testifying. 0:25:36.720 --> 0:25:38.000 So it really depends. 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:44.800 Okay, Now we see hearings and we see someone make 0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:48.960 a statement before questions do I get the right to 0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:50.600 make a statement. When do I get to make a 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:53.200 statement as opposed to just answer questions? 0:25:56.600 --> 0:25:59.800 You get to make a statement at the very beginning. 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:01.520 You have five minutes to make a statement. 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:10.120 Okay, let's assume I'm testifying. To what degree are these 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:13.320 people prepared? And to what deg we should they prepare? 0:26:15.800 --> 0:26:21.560 If you're a witness testifying before the committee, I would 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.040 say you spend a ton of time preparing because you 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:29.160 never know you're under oath. Uh, it's recorded, it's there 0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.520 for all time, it's in the congressional record. You know, 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:35.960 people usually do what's called a murder board will. They'll 0:26:36.000 --> 0:26:39.880 sit down, have lawyers with them, you know, run through 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.080 questions they might be asked and how they're going to 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:47.440 answer them. That's almost certainly the case for any sort 0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:51.919 of high stakes testimony. You know, if if you're a 0:26:52.400 --> 0:26:55.800 subject matter expert and you know the material cold, you 0:26:55.920 --> 0:26:57.680 might not prepare that much. I mean you might. You 0:26:57.760 --> 0:26:59.240 might do this all the time. There are a lot 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.240 of people that testif fight pretty regularly and just kind 0:27:02.240 --> 0:27:03.680 of ready for the job. 0:27:05.480 --> 0:27:09.639 Okay. From an outside position, it seems that some of 0:27:09.640 --> 0:27:14.640 these hearings are grandstanding there's an issue that's in the 0:27:14.680 --> 0:27:18.920 news and they have a hearing and we see some 0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:21.840 reports and then doesn't seem like anything happened. 0:27:24.000 --> 0:27:28.399 Sure, I think that happens quite a bit. You know, 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:33.119 when you say nothing happens, there are There are really 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:37.879 two purposes to a hearing, right You've got a like 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:43.720 a legislative hearing, or like an issue intensive hearing about 0:27:43.760 --> 0:27:46.840 like AI and copyright for instance, That's not going to 0:27:46.880 --> 0:27:49.320 be on the front page of the paper. Most people 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:51.719 aren't going to hear about it unless you're you know, 0:27:52.359 --> 0:27:57.080 unless you're really into this stuff. But if the Attorney 0:27:57.119 --> 0:28:01.200 general's testifying or you know, some se EO is testifying 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:06.359 about some oil spill or something, the purpose of that 0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:11.199 isn't necessarily like, oh, we're always going to we have 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:13.919 a bill in mind that we're going to move. It 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:19.160 is you know, Congress has a rule as an oversight function, right, 0:28:19.200 --> 0:28:21.280 and so it's sort of looking out to these issues 0:28:21.280 --> 0:28:23.840 to see if potentially we need to get involved or 0:28:23.880 --> 0:28:26.520 we need to do something, we need to consider legislative action. 0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:31.840 That isn't always the case. Most of the cabinet secretaries 0:28:32.720 --> 0:28:35.560 had it's customary for them to come up you know 0:28:35.960 --> 0:28:38.760 once a year and testify. I think a lot of 0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:40.760 what you're talking about happens at those hearings. 0:28:41.120 --> 0:28:44.720 Okay, so but let's assume you know it's an issue 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:47.240 that is going to have to be decided or you 0:28:47.280 --> 0:28:50.960 want to have decided. You have the hearing, Then what 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:54.120 might happen to move forward towards legislation. 0:28:57.240 --> 0:28:59.840 You have the hearing that gives you the ability to 0:28:59.880 --> 0:29:03.800 know where the members are, what they're thinking. You hear 0:29:03.880 --> 0:29:08.719 from the witnesses about potential problems with the bills, different 0:29:08.760 --> 0:29:12.200 ways to write whatever bills you're considering on that topic, 0:29:12.840 --> 0:29:16.760 sort of go back process all that information, and then 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:21.640 you'd probably consider putting one of those bills on the 0:29:21.680 --> 0:29:26.280 markup agenda and marking it up marketing and by marking 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:29.320 it up, sorry I mean, I mean you sort of 0:29:29.320 --> 0:29:32.640 bring it before the committee, You debate the bill, you 0:29:32.720 --> 0:29:36.440 amend the bill, and then you sort of vote on 0:29:36.480 --> 0:29:38.959 it and decide whether or not it will leave the 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:40.560 committee and go to the floor. 0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:44.640 And that could take on one end. It never happens. 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:49.200 Never introduce how fast or how slow can this process 0:29:49.320 --> 0:29:50.520 be marking up the bill? 0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:58.640 So as fast as we could notice the markup where 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:04.480 I think it's three business from now, have the mark 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:06.360 up on the bill and send it to the floor, 0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:07.880 and it could be on the floor the next day, 0:30:08.520 --> 0:30:10.440 or you know, after a bill reports filed, so that 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:14.760 that could all happen very quickly. Or you could mark 0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:18.000 up a bill that you send to the floor and 0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:21.080 it never sees action on the floor. Or you could 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.000 introduce a bill and it never gets marked up. 0:30:30.200 --> 0:30:31.560 Okay, who writes the bill? 0:30:33.600 --> 0:30:37.320 Well, bills are always authored by members of Congress. You know, 0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:41.000 it's whatever member's name is on the bill. That's that's 0:30:41.000 --> 0:30:45.080 who introduced the bill, So they've written the bill. 0:30:45.600 --> 0:30:49.560 We hear about lobbyists writing the actual language. Is that 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:50.600 a possibility? 0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:57.520 I don't think is it a possibility. Lobbyists certainly like 0:30:58.240 --> 0:31:00.440 make the case for how some length would you want 0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.960 to build might look like At the end of the day, 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:09.000 these are people who have an interest in the outcome 0:31:09.040 --> 0:31:11.040 of a thing, and they know about their industry and 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:13.520 they don't want you to overlook something, and so they 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:17.480 might play some role in, you know, advising on how 0:31:17.520 --> 0:31:22.360 something's written. But members have to consent to you know, 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.680 that language. Usually you take sort of an idea the 0:31:25.720 --> 0:31:28.240 way it works is you would take an idea that 0:31:28.360 --> 0:31:31.400 you have and you would work with a group we 0:31:31.480 --> 0:31:35.440 have called Legislative Council. There's a bunch of experts there 0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:38.920 that will sort of know how to how to draft 0:31:38.920 --> 0:31:42.040 the bills so that it, you know, can change the 0:31:42.120 --> 0:31:44.160 law in a way that the courts will interpret the 0:31:44.200 --> 0:31:45.520 way that you want them to. 0:31:45.920 --> 0:31:46.880 So what's your job? 0:31:49.560 --> 0:31:56.680 So I basically oversee policy for the Judiciary Committee. That 0:31:56.800 --> 0:32:01.840 means advising members on what bills we're going to move, 0:32:02.360 --> 0:32:07.040 helping to play a role and you know, talking to 0:32:07.120 --> 0:32:10.600 people about why bill is good, why it's bad, if 0:32:10.600 --> 0:32:14.200 it achieves what they want to achieve, what the outcome 0:32:14.240 --> 0:32:17.760 will be, the likelihood of success for the bill you know, 0:32:17.800 --> 0:32:22.200 on the floor or going into law. All that it's 0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:26.480 sort of being, you know, is staff at the committee. 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:30.800 Our Our main role is advising members and helping guide 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:32.280 guide the legislative agenda. 0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:37.880 So you it's not only IP you advise on everything 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:39.440 the Judiciary Committee does. 0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:44.520 I advise on Yes, for the most part, We've got 0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.520 you know, sort of underneath me at the committee there 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:51.640 are other subject matter experts on all these things. And 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:54.840 you know, I would say that I spend a lot 0:32:54.880 --> 0:32:58.760 of my time in the antitrust and IP space. That's 0:32:58.800 --> 0:32:59.960 where I spend most of my time. 0:33:00.120 --> 0:33:05.320 Okay, So in this department, who do you report to? 0:33:06.400 --> 0:33:09.240 Miss it? Everybody that works for the committee reports to 0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:11.960 the chair. Okay, so I worked for all the members 0:33:12.000 --> 0:33:14.360 of the committee, but we report to the chair. 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:17.280 Okay, So you're the you're the head guy in policy. 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:19.640 I think that's that's fair. 0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:22.920 And you're an attorney. How many attorneys work for you? 0:33:25.840 --> 0:33:32.320 There are on staff about one hundred attorneys. I'm reluctant 0:33:32.360 --> 0:33:35.080 to say that these people work for me, but work 0:33:35.160 --> 0:33:37.880 with me. You know, eighty ish. 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.040 People, and are they all attorneys? 0:33:40.760 --> 0:33:42.240 The vast majority of them are attorneys? 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:50.320 Yeah? Okay, So let's go back to something you brought up, Ai. 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.200 So I remember, back when you were a little kid, 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:58.800 they had hearings on Napster and ultimately the issue was 0:33:58.880 --> 0:34:04.600 decided by courts that Master was copyright infringement based on 0:34:04.640 --> 0:34:09.440 a centralized database. Then we had Khazah, Then we had lockers, 0:34:09.880 --> 0:34:12.000 and then we had Daniel Leck came up with a 0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:16.000 good model for streaming, and the rest is history. If 0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:20.640 I'm in tech, should I be looking for a legislative solution? 0:34:21.640 --> 0:34:24.640 Or do I say, A, these issues are going to 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:27.440 work out anyway, or I should find a business solution. 0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:33.400 When it comes to AI, it's it's kind of like a. 0:34:33.480 --> 0:34:36.240 I think the issue is multi dimensional and it depends 0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:42.200 what problem you're trying to solve for right, there are 0:34:42.280 --> 0:34:45.759 definitely some people in tech that are saying you need 0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:50.040 to regulate AI. Some of those people are incumbent players 0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:53.600 who sort of are in at the ground floor at AI, 0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:59.280 and there's concern that the regulations that they want might help, 0:34:59.480 --> 0:35:04.200 you know, of protect their incumbency there there. You know, 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:08.120 if we're talking about music and AI, I think it's 0:35:08.160 --> 0:35:13.040 a it's a different conversation. You know, you've got sort 0:35:13.080 --> 0:35:17.400 of the Copyright Office who's looking at these issues and 0:35:17.960 --> 0:35:20.800 there I think soon going to put out some recommendations 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:24.640 about how they're thinking about AI. You've got the course 0:35:24.760 --> 0:35:27.319 looking at this in terms of what is fair use, 0:35:27.360 --> 0:35:30.920 what is not fair use, and you know AI training 0:35:30.960 --> 0:35:34.359 models and how that will work, you know. And then 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:39.759 I think you've got Congress taking up questions related to 0:35:40.160 --> 0:35:45.440 protecting voice and likeness and to some extent like record 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:51.000 keeping and transparency. You know, these are all issues that 0:35:51.040 --> 0:35:54.759 are that are hot right now. I don't think that 0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:59.040 the situation we're in today is unlike you know what 0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:05.839 happened in nineteen ninety nine with Napster. We I've been 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:11.320 working on music issues for almost a decade now on 0:36:11.680 --> 0:36:16.480 on Capitol Hill, and uh, it went from a year 0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:19.600 ago I would hear about AI every couple of months 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:22.839 or someone would want to come talk about it. This year, 0:36:22.880 --> 0:36:25.879 it feels like every day people want to come talk 0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:30.880 about AI. I think people are people are really concerned 0:36:31.560 --> 0:36:33.880 and they want to get in front of this. I 0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:37.440 think that they don't want a second Napster situation to unfold. 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:40.440 Okay, so you say you've been working on music issues 0:36:40.480 --> 0:36:42.360 for ten years. What are some of the music issues 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:44.279 or what are the music issues you're working on. 0:36:47.160 --> 0:36:50.680 Well, in the last ten years, the biggest thing was 0:36:50.719 --> 0:36:53.520 definitely the Music Monetization Act that we got signed in 0:36:53.600 --> 0:37:00.560 a lot in twenty eighteen. You know, you get like 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:03.840 once in a generation, you get a big piece of 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:10.160 copyright legislation like the Music Monerornization Act, and so that 0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.000 was something that was almost you know, a decade and 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:15.879 a half in the making. Really, the issues that led 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:21.600 to that came from streaming that that was just a 0:37:21.640 --> 0:37:25.240 massive accomplishment that I think brought everyone together. We passed 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:27.040 it out of the House unanimously, went out of the 0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:32.280 Senate unanimously. That was a product of years of hard 0:37:32.280 --> 0:37:36.640 work by a lot of people. Today, the issues, it's 0:37:36.680 --> 0:37:39.480 like AI and people just trying to figure out what 0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:42.839 to do. A lot of these questions are novel. People 0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:47.000 are confused, people are scared, they're they're looking for some 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:51.200 certainty and to see if Congress is going to do something. 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:55.760 Music Modernization Act, how'd you get that over the finish line. 0:37:58.520 --> 0:38:07.480 Well, these issues we're talking that was the the centerpiece 0:38:07.520 --> 0:38:14.360 of that bill was fixing the mechanical license process, you know, 0:38:15.000 --> 0:38:19.439 and this is this is something that I'm sure most 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:22.600 of your listeners know, but you know the mechanical license 0:38:22.680 --> 0:38:26.160 goes back to the piano role. Right. We created this 0:38:26.320 --> 0:38:30.759 in nineteen oh nine after you know, sheet music was 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.640 the only way you sold music in America, right, sold 0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:38.960 sheet music. And that's how you know songwriters, publishers paid money. 0:38:40.000 --> 0:38:44.799 Someone who vents the piano roll wax cylinder case goes 0:38:44.840 --> 0:38:47.560 up to the Supreme Court and the chord is basically 0:38:47.680 --> 0:38:50.399 like this is not a musical work, you know, this 0:38:50.480 --> 0:38:53.920 isn't cheap music. We can't, we won't grant protection to this. 0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:59.040 So Congress steps in and they say they create a 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:02.880 protection for a mechanical work, like a reproduction, you know, 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:09.000 a mechanical reproduction of the musical work. It works out, 0:39:09.040 --> 0:39:10.759 you know, I think there was like a two cent 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:13.600 rate in place at the beginning. This stays in place, 0:39:14.560 --> 0:39:18.279 I think until nineteen seventy six. They increased it a 0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:23.200 little bit, but the mechanical royalty wasn't something people talked about. 0:39:23.239 --> 0:39:25.680 There's talk of even getting rid of it at some point, 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:33.279 and then in the streaming era it becomes a massive problem. 0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:36.960 You know, back in two thousand and four, people were 0:39:37.000 --> 0:39:39.520 talking about all the issues that would they would come 0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:43.759 of the problems with the mechanical because what was what 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:49.080 happens is or what did happen? Pre mma was if 0:39:49.120 --> 0:39:52.600 you wanted to mechanically and that's sort of an outdated term, 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:55.600 even though you know it's not piano rules anymore, reproduce 0:39:55.640 --> 0:39:58.319 the work. You basically told the copyright office you were 0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.040 going to do this, and you you know, you paid 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:06.320 for that, the right to reproduce it. Well with streaming, 0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:09.160 all of the streams and all of the songs. It's 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:15.080 just this massive deluge of streaming led to these notices 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:18.480 of intent flooding the Copyright Office. They couldn't keep up. 0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:21.920 People weren't getting paid. 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:23.480 It was. 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:27.279 It was a real mess, and it stayed that way 0:40:27.360 --> 0:40:30.799 for quite some time until twenty eighteen when we passed 0:40:30.840 --> 0:40:34.880 the Music Monetization Act, which created like a single entity, 0:40:35.080 --> 0:40:39.560 the Music Licensing Collective, which essentially deals with all these 0:40:39.680 --> 0:40:40.760 deals with all these issues. 0:40:40.800 --> 0:40:47.080 Now, okay, we talk about the Copyright Department setting rates 0:40:47.080 --> 0:40:48.760 and increases. How does that work? 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:55.839 So the Copyright Office has a three judge panel called 0:40:55.840 --> 0:41:01.279 the Copyright Royalty Board or the CRB. They're charged with 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:07.040 sort of taking into account all evidence, figuring out rates 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:12.080 for certain proceedings, basically finding agreement among parties after they 0:41:12.120 --> 0:41:16.040 make their case. That is the process we were talking 0:41:16.080 --> 0:41:20.239 about with Spotify. That was a twenty twenty two agreement. 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:23.239 I think it was Phono Records for I think is 0:41:23.280 --> 0:41:27.120 the name of that proceeding where you know they came 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:33.160 to this agreement that now is obviously back in the 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:36.520 news as a problem. 0:41:36.840 --> 0:41:41.000 Okay, let's switch gears. You say you also have oversight 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:46.880 into antitrust. We have this dog case against Live Nation 0:41:47.160 --> 0:41:52.080 and its Ticketmaster subsidiary. To what degree is Congress involved 0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:52.520 in that? 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:58.319 It's the situation Congress is monitoring. There's a lot of 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:05.600 interest in what happened Ticketmaster, what happened with Taylor Swift. 0:42:06.800 --> 0:42:12.560 But DOJ is basically suing Ticketmaster under existing law. So 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:14.879 that's not something that they'll be able to talk about 0:42:14.920 --> 0:42:19.240 publicly or really come testify about until the case is settled. 0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:22.239 Something people have a lot of interest in. People are 0:42:22.640 --> 0:42:25.480 saying good things, are bad things about it, But we 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:27.960 don't have a lot of interest in like that suit 0:42:28.080 --> 0:42:33.719 in particular. Congress is legislating, I would say, around other 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:37.600 issues in that space. It was just a couple of 0:42:37.640 --> 0:42:41.120 weeks ago we passed something called the Ticket Act, which 0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:46.080 basically provides for all in ticket pricing, so you know, 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:48.600 all the fees and everything is the price you see. 0:42:48.640 --> 0:42:50.520 The price you see is the price you get. That 0:42:50.600 --> 0:42:55.520 passed the House, you know, I think it likely will 0:42:55.560 --> 0:42:57.240 pass the Senate, but it hasn't yet. 0:42:57.800 --> 0:42:59.440 What will it take to pass the Senate. 0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.759 I think they're working out some disagreements. There's a there's 0:43:04.800 --> 0:43:10.720 a Ticket Fairness Act, which is different than the Ticket Act. 0:43:11.560 --> 0:43:16.960 You know, there are issues related to like filthy URLs 0:43:17.040 --> 0:43:20.280 and speculative ticketing, and I think people want those added, 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:22.480 and so that's part of the process, is figuring out 0:43:23.000 --> 0:43:24.840 like what we'll make it into the final bill that 0:43:24.920 --> 0:43:28.880 the Senate passes. I think, like we talked about earlier, 0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:31.719 they'll pass something. It'll probably be a little different than 0:43:31.719 --> 0:43:33.480 what passed the House, and it'll come back to us. 0:43:34.040 --> 0:43:36.839 But that that bill passed that, I don't know if 0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:39.560 there was any opposition to it. It was like four 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:43.319 hundred and sum, you know, to a very small number 0:43:43.320 --> 0:43:43.720 of people. 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:47.600 So on many issues, and ticketing being one of them, 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:52.160 they're opposing views. How does the committee deal with those 0:43:52.160 --> 0:43:56.480 opposing views? And how do I try to get my 0:43:56.840 --> 0:44:00.760 side across as opposed to the other side. 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:06.200 We deal with them by providing a forum for people 0:44:06.239 --> 0:44:10.000 to argue and debate and try to convince their colleagues 0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:12.880 that they're right and their colleague is wrong, or vice versa. 0:44:13.800 --> 0:44:16.360 I think if you want your side to prevail, you 0:44:16.440 --> 0:44:21.480 probably come with better arguments, So you spend time with 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:26.439 your colleagues convincing them you know you're wrong to think 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:29.239 this way, think that way about this issue. I'm just like, 0:44:29.600 --> 0:44:30.600 that's really. 0:44:30.360 --> 0:44:33.200 It okay, But that's all within the committee. 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:34.000 That's right. 0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:37.560 If I'm a company external to the committee, how do 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:41.520 I get my position argued by a member of the committee. 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:46.280 You meet with them and make the case. It helps 0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:49.279 if you're from the district, you have a connection to 0:44:49.320 --> 0:44:54.760 the member, relationship with them, and make the case. Most 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:57.440 people have a scattershot approach. They'll meet with all the 0:44:57.480 --> 0:44:59.880 members and hope that someone will be their champion. 0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:10.000 You know, there's been a lot of discussion about certainly 0:45:10.040 --> 0:45:14.680 tech companies who didn't have lobbyists and hired lobbyists. The RIUBLEA, 0:45:14.800 --> 0:45:20.160 the Recording Industry Association of America, is essentially a lobbying outfit. 0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:25.040 To what degree are lobbyists important in getting your side 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:26.160 of the argument heard? 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:32.799 If you're a member, you mean, and you want to 0:45:32.800 --> 0:45:36.320 make an argument, how important are lobbyists to like advancing 0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:37.279 that argument. 0:45:38.000 --> 0:45:41.040 Yes, or even from externally. I'm a company and I 0:45:41.120 --> 0:45:45.120 want to get my representative to hear my argument, to 0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:49.759 put forth my argument right. 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:54.480 I think the lobbyists play a sort of function of 0:45:55.640 --> 0:45:59.919 they probably know the issue. They're spending all day thinking 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:06.000 about this, building arguments, writing memos, they're willing to go 0:46:06.080 --> 0:46:09.120 talk to other people. For you, as a member or 0:46:09.160 --> 0:46:11.799 a staffer, you're probably working on a thousand things that 0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:14.360 can't dedicate all of your time to that. And so 0:46:14.480 --> 0:46:18.160 I think if you're thinking the same way, you know 0:46:18.800 --> 0:46:23.160 someone from a company is thinking that that could be helpful. 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:26.160 Okay, let me put it in a different way. If I'm 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:31.560 somebody in Missouri who has a business is successful, and 0:46:31.600 --> 0:46:36.680 I have no presence in Washington, will it behooved me 0:46:36.840 --> 0:46:39.680 to hire a lobbyist or some company washing just to 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.840 make the connection to the people who are addressing or 0:46:42.920 --> 0:46:44.320 could address my issue. 0:46:44.960 --> 0:46:47.239 Sure, I think that's probably the normal thing. 0:46:47.320 --> 0:46:47.440 You know. 0:46:47.480 --> 0:46:49.440 I've never been in that position where I had to, 0:46:50.280 --> 0:46:53.399 you know, come calling on Congress, but I think that's 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:56.640 probably what most people do. You know, you're living in 0:46:56.680 --> 0:47:00.239 the Midwest, there is some problem with some law law 0:47:00.520 --> 0:47:03.040 that you think is hurting your company. You think that 0:47:03.080 --> 0:47:06.239 Congress should look at changing that. You're probably going to 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:09.200 look to retain some law firm or lobbyist in DC 0:47:09.719 --> 0:47:12.279 that can help you navigate the process. That's right. 0:47:12.680 --> 0:47:18.399 So in the Judicial Committee, what music entertainment issues are 0:47:18.480 --> 0:47:20.560 presently being debated. 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:27.760 Well, certainly all of these AI issues are being debated. 0:47:27.880 --> 0:47:31.960 That's that's a really nascent conversation. In some ways, we're 0:47:32.000 --> 0:47:34.319 taking a lot of testimony. We're hearing from a lot 0:47:34.360 --> 0:47:38.239 of folks, what what could happen in the future, what 0:47:38.280 --> 0:47:42.759 people want us to do. That's there. You know, there 0:47:42.840 --> 0:47:49.120 is this issue of the terrestrial performance, right. This is 0:47:49.160 --> 0:47:52.440 something that has been around for you know, fifty one 0:47:52.520 --> 0:47:58.239 hundred years. You know, the sound recording artists basically say 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:02.319 they should get paid for being played on radio and 0:48:02.360 --> 0:48:07.200 they're not. Radio obviously has a different take on it, 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:10.879 and people are split. But that that's something that's that's 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:14.479 always alive. Uh, And I think we're having a hearing 0:48:14.520 --> 0:48:16.360 on that issue in a couple of weeks. 0:48:16.600 --> 0:48:20.960 In any other music, copyright, entertainment issues that are either 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:24.040 actively or floating around the committee. 0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:30.320 It's really it's all it's been all a I uh, 0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:38.839 you know, almost all the time. This Congress, I mean, 0:48:38.880 --> 0:48:43.120 the ticketmaster thing is a live discussion that that people 0:48:43.120 --> 0:48:47.560 are people are having. But outside of that, relatively you know, 0:48:48.040 --> 0:48:49.600 relatively calm. 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:55.200 Okay, So you know, Congress does not have a reputation 0:48:55.400 --> 0:49:01.320 for moving quickly, certainly in the technological sphere, will movement 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:05.359 in the AI regulation area come from Congress or will 0:49:05.400 --> 0:49:06.960 come from an external source? 0:49:08.520 --> 0:49:13.200 Well it Congress has said, uh, this Congress, We've got 0:49:13.200 --> 0:49:19.919 this AI task Force's equal representation of Republicans and Democrats. 0:49:20.200 --> 0:49:24.120 They're holding all these meetings, hearing from you know, the 0:49:24.160 --> 0:49:29.560 defense industry, that you know, tech companies, everybody's coming in 0:49:29.600 --> 0:49:32.160 for these sort of forums. And I think this panel 0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:34.400 at the end of the year will make some recommendations 0:49:34.440 --> 0:49:38.400 about what they think Congress should do on these issues. 0:49:39.680 --> 0:49:45.879 You have the administration of doing things via executive order 0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:50.000 looking at you know, there are things that executive branch 0:49:50.040 --> 0:49:54.480 agencies can be doing with AI. Senator Schumer put out 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:59.799 a report about AI. There's a lot of happening. How 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:02.880 asked all of that will come together? Hard to tell. 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:08.680 I'm not sure. I don't think anything will happen before 0:50:08.719 --> 0:50:11.960 the end of the year. I don't think anyone would 0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:12.680 disagree with that. 0:50:13.040 --> 0:50:15.520 Yeah, it's an issue with even the players can't agree 0:50:15.560 --> 0:50:20.480 on and within the committee. Does this break down by 0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:24.319 political parties or is everybody basically you know, learning and 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:26.160 thinking what the best thing to do is. 0:50:27.440 --> 0:50:31.120 People are learning and thinking about what the best thing 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:37.680 to do is on AI hardly any like tech issues, 0:50:37.880 --> 0:50:41.480 IP issues, they don't break down on party lines. They 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:45.360 really it's there's a whole almost an entirely different paradigm 0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:51.400 for thinking about like copyright protection and what people have. 0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:56.600 You know, some people would say more it should be cheaper, 0:50:56.719 --> 0:51:00.680 the government shouldn't provide as much protection for creative work. 0:51:00.719 --> 0:51:03.279 So other people are like, that's crazy. You know, we 0:51:03.360 --> 0:51:08.600 need we are way under compensating, you know, creative artists. 0:51:08.760 --> 0:51:12.719 We should really increase, increase the rights people have. I 0:51:12.719 --> 0:51:15.200 think it sort of breaks down along along those lines 0:51:15.280 --> 0:51:16.720 more than more than anything else. 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:21.359 Okay, you're saying these hearings, these are traditional hearings that 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:24.480 we're talking about with every member gets five minutes or 0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:28.120 might I come in and speak to five representatives? What 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:30.360 are all these hearings you're referencing on AI? 0:51:31.800 --> 0:51:34.960 These are not hearings. This is a what we'd call 0:51:35.040 --> 0:51:40.439 a task force, and so it is a more informal thing. 0:51:40.520 --> 0:51:43.640 They've got some rules in place where people come in 0:51:43.719 --> 0:51:46.399 and I think they give them five minutes. It might 0:51:46.440 --> 0:51:49.880 be ten, but it's it's a more informal sort of 0:51:50.000 --> 0:51:53.160 tribunal for hearing for hear hearing out the issues, and 0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:56.440 I think a more freewheeling discussion. They try and you know, 0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:59.360 keep some rules in place. People are still asking questions 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:03.319 of the witness, but it's a little looser and I 0:52:03.360 --> 0:52:06.000 don't think there's a record being built. It's more of 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:08.960 a you know, a place where people can just talk 0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:09.560 more freely. 0:52:10.080 --> 0:52:12.439 And will this be you talk about a record? Will 0:52:12.440 --> 0:52:15.080 this be on c spin, will there be any report? 0:52:15.520 --> 0:52:17.520 Or this is basically in chambers. 0:52:18.280 --> 0:52:22.080 It's basically in chambers. Basically in chambers for now. But 0:52:22.520 --> 0:52:26.520 while that's happening, all of the various committees are holding 0:52:26.560 --> 0:52:31.440 hearings on these issues and you know, talking through talking 0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:33.640 through them on the record and having legislative hearings and 0:52:33.640 --> 0:52:34.520 putting bills forward. 0:52:35.440 --> 0:52:39.520 Now, the average person can't understand what AI is, even 0:52:39.560 --> 0:52:42.960 though they're using AI every day on their phones, et cetera. 0:52:43.560 --> 0:52:47.440 You know, these committees address a million issues. To what 0:52:47.560 --> 0:52:50.200 degree are the individuals up to speed on some of 0:52:50.239 --> 0:52:50.960 these issues. 0:52:54.960 --> 0:53:00.640 It would surprise you, I think how knowledge jible some 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:06.760 members can become. Uh And I think it would also 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:11.319 surprise you at you know, how little knowledge some people have. 0:53:13.680 --> 0:53:18.359 The really great thing about working in Congress is it's 0:53:18.400 --> 0:53:22.200 really easy to get information. There are a lot of 0:53:22.200 --> 0:53:24.640 people that want to help you understand. We've got the 0:53:24.640 --> 0:53:29.120 Congressional Research Service there staff, You've got sort of legislative 0:53:29.120 --> 0:53:31.279 counsel to advise you on how bills are going to 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:34.640 be written. So anyone that wants to learn can learn 0:53:35.400 --> 0:53:37.760 a lot of really smart people working on these things, 0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:40.799 and that the hearings are really there to, you know, 0:53:40.920 --> 0:53:42.799 to help you learn. And I think, frankly, that's why 0:53:43.120 --> 0:53:45.760 they're doing some of this is, as you said in Chambers, 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:49.759 because these issues are novel, they're complex. People want the 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:53.640 opportunity to, you know, like ask what might be perceived 0:53:53.640 --> 0:53:54.640 as a stupid question. 0:53:55.520 --> 0:53:57.960 Let's go back to antitrust for a minute. You have 0:53:58.040 --> 0:54:02.879 the DOJ, and there's doing Live Nation. You have Lena Kahan, 0:54:03.800 --> 0:54:07.279 and you have the Congress. How do those responsibilities to 0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:09.440 divide up into what degree do they overlap? 0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:15.680 So put it simply, Congress writes the laws and then 0:54:16.120 --> 0:54:21.880 Lena and Jonathan enforced the laws. You've got Lena Khanna, 0:54:21.920 --> 0:54:23.920 you noted at the FTC, which is a commission of 0:54:24.160 --> 0:54:29.400 five people currently controlled by by Lena, who used to 0:54:29.400 --> 0:54:32.080 work at Before she was there, she worked at the 0:54:32.160 --> 0:54:39.080 Judiciary Committee, and they've got a big piece of anti 0:54:39.080 --> 0:54:42.319 trust and they've got a lot of other responsibilities at 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:46.799 the FTC also, and then you have the DOJ, which 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:49.320 is run by the DOJ Anti Trust Division, which is 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:53.320 run by Jonathan Canter and just doing anti trust. 0:54:54.040 --> 0:54:55.240 So how'd you get this job? 0:54:55.960 --> 0:54:59.560 How do I get that? You know, Bob? I came 0:54:59.680 --> 0:55:07.440 to Capitol Hill in two thousand and eleven and I thought, 0:55:07.640 --> 0:55:12.359 you know, I like DC, I like policy work. It's 0:55:12.400 --> 0:55:16.839 important to understand Capitol Hill. I'll stay here for one 0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:20.400 year and then go do something else. And you know, 0:55:20.480 --> 0:55:25.640 almost fourteen years later, I'm still here, still kicking around. 0:55:25.800 --> 0:55:28.040 It's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:28.399 of fun. 0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:31.200 Well, let's go back to the beginning. Where you're from. 0:55:31.640 --> 0:55:35.680 From Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh, Cranberry Township. 0:55:35.600 --> 0:55:38.080 Okay, And what your parents do for a living? 0:55:39.120 --> 0:55:43.560 My parents do. My mother it's like a sales rep. 0:55:43.600 --> 0:55:50.440 And my father was an engineer, got civil engineer, doing 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:51.280 energy stuff. 0:55:52.280 --> 0:55:54.799 And how many kids in the family, just. 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:55.520 Me and my brother. 0:55:56.040 --> 0:55:57.080 What's your brother up to? 0:55:57.719 --> 0:56:01.839 My brother lives out there in LA with you. He's 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:05.960 he's doing like the communications work for a hospital or something. 0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:10.200 Okay, did you say with the yalies? Who'd you say? 0:56:10.320 --> 0:56:11.240 No? With a hospital? 0:56:11.320 --> 0:56:12.440 With a hospital? Okay? 0:56:12.440 --> 0:56:14.920 Communications were with a hospital. Sorry. And you go to 0:56:15.000 --> 0:56:18.120 college where I go to George Mason down here? 0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:21.160 Any particular reason you go to George Mason. 0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:26.880 Yeah. I was on the debate team at George Mason. 0:56:26.920 --> 0:56:29.200 They had a great debate program, and so that was 0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:32.040 kind of what drove me down there. I wanted to 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:35.600 be in DC, so everything kind of lined up. It 0:56:35.640 --> 0:56:36.480 was a great experience. 0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:39.640 Did you go directly from undergrad to law school? 0:56:40.680 --> 0:56:44.759 No? I, like I said, I got this. 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:45.439 Yeah. 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:48.120 I got a job on Capitol Hill, thought it was 0:56:49.400 --> 0:56:50.920 not going to be awesome, and that I'd go to 0:56:51.000 --> 0:56:55.279 law school right afterward. I was on Capitol Hill for 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:59.200 about four years, realized I wasn't going to leave, and 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:02.239 made the decision to go to law school at night, 0:57:02.840 --> 0:57:07.560 also at George Mason while working on the hill. 0:57:07.800 --> 0:57:10.120 Okay, So you graduated from college what year. 0:57:10.960 --> 0:57:14.280 Two thousand and four or two thousand and eight? Sorry, 0:57:14.480 --> 0:57:16.800 got there in four graduated in o eight. 0:57:16.840 --> 0:57:18.160 How long did it take you to go to law 0:57:18.200 --> 0:57:18.840 school at night? 0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:20.920 About four years. 0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:25.280 It's a lot of work, okay. So what happens when 0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:29.720 you start working on Capitol Hill and it evolves into 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:32.520 where you are now, what's your first job? And then 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:34.280 where do you go from there? Sure? 0:57:34.680 --> 0:57:38.920 So I got there in twenty and eleven and I 0:57:39.000 --> 0:57:43.680 worked for Dary Lisa, who's now the IP Subcommittee chair 0:57:44.320 --> 0:57:47.800 in like a totally different role at the he was 0:57:47.840 --> 0:57:50.440 at the Oversight Committee at the time. I got to 0:57:50.520 --> 0:57:58.600 know him pretty well. In twenty fourteen, he asked me 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:02.800 to come be his life legislative director, so I sort 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:06.680 of managed his whole legislative shop while he was the 0:58:06.800 --> 0:58:11.560 chair of the IP Subcommittee and then Judi Charry Committee 0:58:12.120 --> 0:58:12.560 after that. 0:58:12.800 --> 0:58:15.240 Okay, let's be a little more granular. What's your very 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:16.800 first job and how do you get it? 0:58:17.640 --> 0:58:21.360 Very first job on Capitol Hill was as a professional 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:25.200 staff member on the Oversight Committee, which at the time 0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:28.280 was chaired by mister Isaa. 0:58:29.320 --> 0:58:30.640 How do you get a job like that? 0:58:32.320 --> 0:58:35.720 You know, it's how you get a job on Capitol 0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:37.720 Hill is a funny thing. You got to be in 0:58:37.800 --> 0:58:42.080 the right place at the right time. Congress had just 0:58:42.200 --> 0:58:49.200 changed and the twenty ten cycle. I knew some people 0:58:49.240 --> 0:58:54.280 from George Mason that were there and sort of expressed 0:58:54.280 --> 0:58:57.439 some interest and potentially going to Capitol Hill, like I said, 0:58:57.440 --> 0:59:02.680 to get the experience, got an interview, and to get 0:59:02.720 --> 0:59:04.760 the job. And the thing about these changes is like 0:59:04.840 --> 0:59:08.960 you could have to hire twenty thirty forty people within 0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:13.680 a couple of months to staff up and so right place, 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:16.000 right time, that really really makes a difference. 0:59:16.280 --> 0:59:20.280 So what did you actually do when you started? What 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:21.080 did I do? So? 0:59:22.160 --> 0:59:24.720 This was it was the Oversight Committee. So at that 0:59:24.800 --> 0:59:29.000 time there was a lot of like oversight of the 0:59:29.080 --> 0:59:33.160 GM bailout and of the tart program and of the 0:59:33.200 --> 0:59:37.240 stimulus program and where's the money going, how's it being spent? 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:39.920 Asking questions of people. It was like a lot of 0:59:40.040 --> 0:59:42.760 a lot of that stuff, less like policy work. 0:59:42.920 --> 0:59:44.720 Okay, what were you doing? 0:59:45.400 --> 0:59:47.760 I was doing that. I was you know, like writing 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:52.880 letters to the you know, companies that got bailout money. 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:57.520 I was talking to members about what we found in 0:59:57.560 --> 1:00:00.320 the documents that we got from these company he is 1:00:00.360 --> 1:00:06.680 about the government funds they received it. A lot of 1:00:06.720 --> 1:00:12.000 writing letters and sort of you know, talking talking to 1:00:12.040 --> 1:00:14.520 people about how they were like waste for out and abuse. 1:00:14.600 --> 1:00:27.680 Basically, how do you become so tight with ISA from working? 1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:31.520 I didn't know him at all. When I uh took 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:36.280 the job at the at the Oversight Committee, didn't didn't 1:00:36.280 --> 1:00:38.680 know him hardly at all. It was probably a year 1:00:38.840 --> 1:00:40.440 or you know, it was probably a year or so 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:45.360 before he even knew my name. But over the years 1:00:45.400 --> 1:00:48.720 we've become, you know, very close. He gave the blessing 1:00:48.720 --> 1:00:53.480 at my wedding last year. He's I consider him a 1:00:53.800 --> 1:00:54.400 good friend. 1:00:55.400 --> 1:00:59.480 Okay, Isa happens to be a Republican. Does that have 1:00:59.560 --> 1:01:02.040 anything to do with you getting the job or you 1:01:02.200 --> 1:01:04.880 just working in this committee and he gets a takes 1:01:04.880 --> 1:01:05.560 a liking to you. 1:01:09.000 --> 1:01:12.080 I'm working in this committee. He takes a liking to 1:01:12.120 --> 1:01:15.160 me and is working for the majority controlled by Republicans. 1:01:15.160 --> 1:01:15.600 That's right. 1:01:16.360 --> 1:01:19.120 I used to make his money in Carl Alarms. Does 1:01:19.160 --> 1:01:20.360 he ever talk about that? 1:01:21.360 --> 1:01:25.760 He does talk about that Bob He you know, he's 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:29.080 the voice of the viper Carl Alarm, the like step 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:33.560 away from the car protected by Viper, that's his voice. 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:38.440 He had. I think he's got thirty seven patents or something. 1:01:40.600 --> 1:01:46.160 He like, he's a really really smart guy that knows 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:50.520 intellectual property. He was actually, I think for a while 1:01:51.080 --> 1:01:54.840 involved in a copyright lawsuit against Shack because Shack had 1:01:54.920 --> 1:01:59.400 used part of the protected by viper bit in a song, 1:02:00.720 --> 1:02:03.920 and so yeah, that's that's what story loves itself. 1:02:04.000 --> 1:02:08.680 But yeah, okay, let's go back. You're working, you become 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.600 tight with Isa, and he gives you what job and 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:13.320 what are the responsibilities there? 1:02:15.800 --> 1:02:19.760 I go to his office to be his legislative director. 1:02:19.880 --> 1:02:24.480 So on Capitol Hill, basically you either worked for a member, 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:27.480 and a member personal office has got like about twelve 1:02:27.560 --> 1:02:29.760 staffers in it, you know, a chief of staff, a 1:02:29.840 --> 1:02:34.160 legislative director, other people working on specific issues, or or 1:02:34.280 --> 1:02:36.840 you work for a committee where you're sort of more 1:02:36.880 --> 1:02:41.480 of a subject matter expert. So I go to IS's 1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:46.280 personal office to be his legislative director, basically oversee the 1:02:46.400 --> 1:02:50.680 legislative portfolio. It was during this time we worked on 1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:55.600 the Music Modernization Act. He wrote the Classics Act, which 1:02:55.680 --> 1:02:58.560 was a part of the Music Modernization Act, which basically 1:02:58.880 --> 1:03:04.280 worked to present or protect rather pre seventy two sound recordings. 1:03:04.280 --> 1:03:06.640 This was a you know, legacy issue that had been 1:03:06.640 --> 1:03:07.320 around for a while. 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:10.920 You say he wrote who actually wrote it? 1:03:12.480 --> 1:03:17.240 Well, I guess I wrote it in the sense that, yeah, 1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:20.680 he had long wanted to take care of this issue. 1:03:20.680 --> 1:03:22.920 There's a lot of music from the fifties and sixties. 1:03:22.960 --> 1:03:26.160 He really likes you'd hear from these people. He wanted 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:30.280 to solve this issue for them. Sort of directed me 1:03:30.360 --> 1:03:32.960 to find a solution. I talked to a bunch of people, 1:03:34.920 --> 1:03:39.920 you know, and concluding this, you know, people in the 1:03:40.000 --> 1:03:46.480 music community, music distributors, and try and find a way 1:03:46.520 --> 1:03:50.200 to write the bill the best way that we can. 1:03:51.160 --> 1:03:55.200 You talk with led council about you know, what part 1:03:55.200 --> 1:03:57.960 of chapter seventeen this belongs in, and how you write 1:03:58.000 --> 1:03:59.600 the thing. So the course are going to interpret it 1:03:59.600 --> 1:04:00.000 the right way? 1:04:00.600 --> 1:04:04.160 Okay, Daryl comes to you, says, I want to address 1:04:04.240 --> 1:04:07.160 this issue. How long do you come back with a 1:04:07.200 --> 1:04:08.000 piece of writing. 1:04:10.440 --> 1:04:13.240 He was one of the things the next day. But 1:04:13.280 --> 1:04:18.360 it probably you know, it depends on the complexity of 1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:22.080 the issue. In that case, I mean, it took weeks 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:25.520 months of talking talking to folks about the right way 1:04:25.520 --> 1:04:25.880 to do this. 1:04:26.280 --> 1:04:29.080 Okay, So you gather all your information, you write it. 1:04:30.080 --> 1:04:32.120 What literally happens next. 1:04:34.360 --> 1:04:37.479 You write it, give it to him. He signs the bill, 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:40.000 He walks it over to what we'd call the hopper, 1:04:41.560 --> 1:04:43.760 you know, in the house. You put the bill in 1:04:43.840 --> 1:04:46.880 the hopper, so that it's filed, it'll get an HR 1:04:47.080 --> 1:04:51.880 number whatever it was, you know, HR thirteen fifty nine, 1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:55.440 and it's just the you know number of it's the 1:04:55.560 --> 1:04:59.440 last bill introduced at that point in the Congress is 1:04:59.480 --> 1:05:05.120 the number on the bill, and then it's sitting there 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:09.880 and everyone knows it's been introduced. What you do then, 1:05:10.040 --> 1:05:12.080 or you might do some of this before you file it, 1:05:12.160 --> 1:05:14.760 is you basically try and get other members of Congress 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:19.640 to co sponsor your bill. So, yeah, go to other 1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:21.600 people that you think might be into this issue and 1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:24.240 you kind of pitch them on it to build up 1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:27.160 co sponsors. And that's a really important part of the 1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:31.080 process because if you have other members basically saying I'm 1:05:31.120 --> 1:05:34.640 totally on board with this, it gives you know, the 1:05:34.720 --> 1:05:41.040 speaker and leadership confidence that this thing has support. You know, generally, 1:05:41.080 --> 1:05:43.960 the more co sponsors the better. If you want to 1:05:43.960 --> 1:05:47.200 be an original co sponsor, you would sign on, you know, 1:05:47.520 --> 1:05:51.680 before before the bill is introduced, which basically signifies you know, 1:05:51.720 --> 1:05:54.040 you had some role in creating the bill or coming 1:05:54.120 --> 1:05:54.880 up with the idea. 1:05:56.440 --> 1:05:59.800 Okay, when you're working with ISA and yours legislative director, 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:02.880 how many people in the office are in the legislative area. 1:06:04.120 --> 1:06:11.080 How many people. There are probably five people under me 1:06:11.440 --> 1:06:16.200 in that office, and sort of divided up by issue area. 1:06:16.320 --> 1:06:20.440 You know, someone might have like energy and environment and healthcare, 1:06:20.520 --> 1:06:26.640 and someone else might have, you know, taxes and veterans affairs, 1:06:27.080 --> 1:06:33.440 and you know, any manner everything. I mean, all of 1:06:33.480 --> 1:06:35.640 the business before the House, which is all of the 1:06:35.640 --> 1:06:39.000 business of the American public, is really that exists in 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:41.360 every congressional office because at some point you're gonna have 1:06:41.360 --> 1:06:43.240 to vote on some bill related to that. 1:06:44.160 --> 1:06:46.200 Okay, So what was your next job after that? 1:06:48.000 --> 1:06:56.720 So back to so is a rich hires And then 1:06:56.880 --> 1:07:00.360 for me, it was where basically where I'm at now. 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:04.120 But didn't Isa lose an election and then come back. 1:07:05.000 --> 1:07:10.680 He he's very very sensitive about this, Bob. He did 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:15.200 not lose an election. He retired near the end of 1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:16.000 twenty eighteen. 1:07:17.960 --> 1:07:21.480 Okay, then let's just accept the language not important to me. 1:07:22.320 --> 1:07:26.000 If he is out of Congress, Andy comes back to 1:07:26.120 --> 1:07:33.000 what degreed does he lose or regain his seniority and positions? 1:07:33.440 --> 1:07:39.360 That's a great question. You keep your seniority, So even 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:42.360 if you left ten years ago, but before then you'd 1:07:42.400 --> 1:07:45.680 spent ten years on the Judiciary Committee. You've got more 1:07:45.720 --> 1:07:48.880 seniority than anyone with less than ten years of seniority 1:07:48.920 --> 1:07:52.040 on Judiciary Committee. He's sort of come back. 1:07:52.520 --> 1:07:55.360 So let's assume let's say I'm out of office and 1:07:55.400 --> 1:07:58.280 I have ten years and I come back. Am I 1:07:58.280 --> 1:08:00.720 immediately able to get on the Judicial your committee? Or 1:08:00.760 --> 1:08:01.400 might they say no? 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:05.840 They could say no, but it's not likely they're almost 1:08:05.880 --> 1:08:07.919 certainly going to put you back, especially with that level 1:08:07.960 --> 1:08:12.040 of seniority. There's a deference there. They might even, you know, 1:08:12.040 --> 1:08:15.560 if they had to, might like kick a freshman off 1:08:15.600 --> 1:08:16.200 the committee. 1:08:16.800 --> 1:08:19.720 Okay, so Isa is out of d C. Tell me 1:08:19.760 --> 1:08:21.559 how you transition into the next job. 1:08:23.200 --> 1:08:27.080 I say, is out of d C. I was trying 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:35.800 to figure out what to do and got a call 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:41.920 from now Chairman Jim Jordan who basically said, hey, I, 1:08:42.240 --> 1:08:46.080 you know, come work for me. Could you could use 1:08:46.120 --> 1:08:49.280 your help? And ultimately I said yes. 1:08:49.800 --> 1:08:51.879 How did Jim Jordan know who you were. 1:08:53.000 --> 1:08:56.960 From being around the committee, being around Capitol Hill? 1:08:57.040 --> 1:08:58.760 So when he comes to ask you to come work 1:08:58.760 --> 1:09:00.799 for you, what year and what is that job? 1:09:02.520 --> 1:09:09.400 That job was? This is the end of twenty eighteen, 1:09:10.880 --> 1:09:15.040 and I hadn't made a decision I think it was 1:09:15.080 --> 1:09:18.160 December of twenty eighteen. You know, I said, was leaving 1:09:18.800 --> 1:09:20.240 at the end of so I would have been out 1:09:20.240 --> 1:09:27.240 of a job in a matter of weeks and that 1:09:27.240 --> 1:09:29.400 that's kind of that's when he called, and that's when 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:32.519 I said, yes, he basically tells it. There's some of 1:09:32.520 --> 1:09:38.080 this gets strangely like it gets a little personal, but 1:09:38.640 --> 1:09:42.320 he basically said, hey. I said, hey, I like music stuff, 1:09:42.360 --> 1:09:45.120 I like eyepiece stuff, you know, I like a lot 1:09:45.120 --> 1:09:46.840 of things that are going on. He said, come work 1:09:46.880 --> 1:09:49.160 for me. You can do that stuff, you know, kind 1:09:49.160 --> 1:09:52.120 of whatever, you know, whatever you want to do. At 1:09:52.120 --> 1:09:57.840 that point he was he was cool if I'm yeah. 1:09:58.080 --> 1:10:01.320 At the time, I had a lot of friends working 1:10:01.360 --> 1:10:08.120 there for him. My father was really sick and I 1:10:08.760 --> 1:10:14.920 knew Chairman Jordan pretty well, and he was kind of like, hey, 1:10:15.080 --> 1:10:20.479 that like, come work here, the accommodating of everything going 1:10:20.520 --> 1:10:24.400 on in your life. And so that was kind of 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:25.559 where the decision came from. 1:10:26.479 --> 1:10:28.920 What happened with your father's illness. 1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:32.280 Well, he passed away from cancer that in like the 1:10:32.280 --> 1:10:34.120 beginning of twenty twenty. 1:10:34.600 --> 1:10:38.559 During just wow heavy losing a p It. 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:44.280 Was, yeah, obviously not ideal, but you know, very sad, 1:10:44.360 --> 1:10:47.800 but it happened in January of twenty twenty, so I 1:10:47.840 --> 1:10:49.880 think it was a blessing that it sort of all 1:10:50.720 --> 1:10:53.920 happened pre COVID so we didn't have to like deal 1:10:54.000 --> 1:10:56.200 with the like that whole situation. 1:10:57.479 --> 1:11:03.479 Okay, your father passes. How does your situation evolve at 1:11:03.479 --> 1:11:05.040 the Judicial Committee? 1:11:07.000 --> 1:11:11.400 It it, I mean, largely stays the same. I mean 1:11:11.520 --> 1:11:14.439 I really love these issues at that point, I mean 1:11:14.479 --> 1:11:19.240 it was it's the job I have. Now I have, 1:11:19.800 --> 1:11:22.360 you know, no idea how long I'll keep doing this, 1:11:22.520 --> 1:11:25.720 but for now it's awesome. I mean you're right in 1:11:25.760 --> 1:11:29.920 the middle of everything. You get to interact with just 1:11:30.000 --> 1:11:34.599 about everybody and learn cool stuff. I think you really 1:11:34.640 --> 1:11:37.280 get to have an opportunity to have have an impact 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:41.200 on on the legislative process on where things go. 1:11:41.880 --> 1:11:45.880 Okay, you're the head guy. Now when Jim Jordan hires you, 1:11:45.960 --> 1:11:47.519 does he hire you as the head guy? 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:53.800 Is it like the one of there's like the policy guy. Yeah? 1:11:53.920 --> 1:11:58.719 Okay, So how long was your predecessor in this role? 1:12:03.680 --> 1:12:08.120 So before Jordan was chaired the committee? Now there was 1:12:08.200 --> 1:12:13.800 chair of the committee, and I think for quite some time, 1:12:14.280 --> 1:12:18.280 like I mean, you know, ten to fifteen years. 1:12:18.680 --> 1:12:22.240 So let's just assume for the sake of discussion, Jim 1:12:22.360 --> 1:12:26.200 Jordan continues to chair this committee. At what point would 1:12:26.280 --> 1:12:27.640 you pull the ripcord? 1:12:29.800 --> 1:12:34.760 That's a question I get almost every day. I have 1:12:34.800 --> 1:12:38.320 no idea. I don't really make plans. You know that 1:12:38.360 --> 1:12:41.599 this isn't forever. I enjoy every day I have this job. 1:12:42.200 --> 1:12:46.320 I think it's great. Most people don't stay on the 1:12:46.360 --> 1:12:49.200 hill as long as I have, but the average tenures 1:12:49.240 --> 1:12:54.000 something like three four years. Most people, believe it or not, 1:12:54.160 --> 1:12:59.880 are much younger than me. But for now, I'm not 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:01.840 to be here. I don't have I don't have plans 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:02.200 to leave. 1:13:02.840 --> 1:13:07.880 Okay, So theoretically, could there be a move, whether it 1:13:07.920 --> 1:13:10.559 be you or someone in the same role, from the 1:13:10.640 --> 1:13:15.360 Judiciary Committee policy person to another job in Congress, Senate, 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:19.280 the government somewhere. Does it ever work that way? Yeah? 1:13:19.400 --> 1:13:23.600 Well, like Lena Lena Cone you mentioned he was a 1:13:23.720 --> 1:13:27.960 Judiciary Committee and now running the Federal Trade Commission. People move, 1:13:28.160 --> 1:13:29.759 move around all the time. 1:13:30.160 --> 1:13:32.280 And how come people only tend to last for three 1:13:32.320 --> 1:13:33.000 or four years. 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:38.240 Uh, it's a lot of hours. It's not easy work. 1:13:39.720 --> 1:13:42.880 I personally, I like the pace. I like being busy, 1:13:43.360 --> 1:13:46.760 but I mean you have weeks where you're working. You know, 1:13:46.880 --> 1:13:50.000 it could be eighteen hours a day, and then the 1:13:50.040 --> 1:13:53.439 next week it's much slower and much calmer because the 1:13:53.479 --> 1:13:57.600 members of Congress will leave town. I personally really like 1:13:57.720 --> 1:13:59.760 that pace. The ebb and flow is fun for me. 1:14:00.240 --> 1:14:02.519 It's not for everyone. I think a lot of people 1:14:02.520 --> 1:14:05.960 want to leave and make more money the hill notoriously 1:14:06.040 --> 1:14:09.559 doesn't you know you're not going to get rich doing this. 1:14:10.600 --> 1:14:12.920 Do you have the kind of job? Or people in 1:14:13.080 --> 1:14:16.840 Washington but work peripheral to the government are recruiting you 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:18.760 and say come work to the other sign. 1:14:20.400 --> 1:14:23.559 Over the years, sure people have made overtures about like, oh, 1:14:23.680 --> 1:14:26.719 it'd be great if you came and worked here or there. 1:14:27.960 --> 1:14:30.519 You know, nothing has struck my fancy, like I said, 1:14:30.560 --> 1:14:33.439 and I'm really happy where I am. 1:14:33.840 --> 1:14:39.400 Okay, And how much of your work is supervisory or 1:14:39.439 --> 1:14:41.360 work you're doing independently. 1:14:44.000 --> 1:14:50.320 I would say I bet seventy five percent of it 1:14:50.360 --> 1:14:55.320 is supervisory sort of talking to people about what they're doing, 1:14:55.479 --> 1:15:01.760 reviewing their work, guiding them, giving advice, giving counseled. It's 1:15:01.800 --> 1:15:02.240 a lot of that. 1:15:03.360 --> 1:15:08.439 Okay, everybody on the Judiciary Committee know you yes, if 1:15:08.479 --> 1:15:12.679 there are four hundred and thirty five members of Congress. 1:15:12.680 --> 1:15:22.960 How many of them might know you. 1:15:18.479 --> 1:15:20.679 More than fifty and less than four hundred. 1:15:22.560 --> 1:15:26.240 Would Joe Biden possibly know who you are or whoever's 1:15:26.320 --> 1:15:28.360 president at that moment? Uh? 1:15:28.560 --> 1:15:30.600 Definitely not, definitely not. 1:15:32.920 --> 1:15:35.920 Is there an equivalent in the Senate? And what do 1:15:36.040 --> 1:15:38.400 we do interact with that person here? 1:15:38.479 --> 1:15:41.880 We interact with the Senate quite You kind of have 1:15:41.960 --> 1:15:45.439 to to make sure you're on the same page. Would 1:15:45.520 --> 1:15:48.360 Joe Biden know that person? The answers almost definitely know, 1:15:48.680 --> 1:15:50.000 unless there's something I don't know. 1:15:51.360 --> 1:15:53.759 Okay, is it the kind of job like with Jeffrey 1:15:53.800 --> 1:15:57.439 Katzenberg when he was at Disney, If you don't come 1:15:57.479 --> 1:16:00.440 in on Saturday, don't even think about coming in on. 1:16:03.960 --> 1:16:05.800 I'm not sure I follow you well, if you don't 1:16:05.800 --> 1:16:07.560 come in on Saturday, Okay. 1:16:07.360 --> 1:16:09.559 What it means? Is it a seven day a week job? 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:14.519 Yeah, oh, definitely definitely. It could be a three am 1:16:14.560 --> 1:16:18.800 on Sunday job. Yeah, you are. You're always on call? 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:22.840 And how does one maintain a relationship with that kind 1:16:22.840 --> 1:16:23.440 of schedule. 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:30.120 I have a very wonderful and understanding wife who's patient. 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:32.960 She likes to say to your point, she says he's 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:37.559 always working and never working. I think because I enjoy 1:16:37.640 --> 1:16:40.320 the work, you know what, I'm always doing it and 1:16:40.479 --> 1:16:43.559 kind of at this point, I've seen enough of the 1:16:43.600 --> 1:16:47.280 issues that I could. It's never really that taxing to 1:16:47.360 --> 1:16:49.800 sort of go to work and take care of something 1:16:49.800 --> 1:16:50.439 as it comes up. 1:16:51.080 --> 1:16:54.640 And are your friends civilians are people in the business, 1:16:54.680 --> 1:16:55.720 so to speak. 1:16:57.080 --> 1:16:59.080 Mixture of both. I mean, you don't work somewhere for 1:16:59.080 --> 1:17:02.960 fourteen years and not develop some friendships there. But I've 1:17:02.960 --> 1:17:05.639 got I've got a good number of civilian friends. 1:17:05.680 --> 1:17:08.880 Also. Okay, we live in an era where there's never 1:17:09.040 --> 1:17:13.439 been less respect for institutions. It's not only Congress, it's 1:17:13.479 --> 1:17:16.760 the government at large, it's attorneys. We could go on. 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:21.040 What would you tell in response to people who say, oh, 1:17:21.120 --> 1:17:25.840 you know, uh, Congress is a body that is locked up, 1:17:25.920 --> 1:17:28.880 doesn't achieve anything, and roll their eyes. 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:33.720 It is pretty locked up, right. I don't want to 1:17:34.280 --> 1:17:37.559 want to be cynical here. I mean it's locked up. 1:17:37.600 --> 1:17:39.799 It's hard to get things done. I think the founders 1:17:39.840 --> 1:17:42.280 wanted it to be hard to get things done right 1:17:42.880 --> 1:17:46.240 changing make you know, if changing the law were easy, 1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:49.160 I think that would be a that would be a problem. 1:17:50.320 --> 1:17:53.680 You know, and there I would say most of what 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:58.640 you see is probably the worst of it all, you know, 1:18:00.040 --> 1:18:03.400 but what cable news shares and what you're seeing on 1:18:03.520 --> 1:18:07.840 Twitter from clips is like one percent of what's happening 1:18:07.960 --> 1:18:12.960 on Capitol Hill. The most of what's happening is good 1:18:13.000 --> 1:18:15.880 people trying to do the right thing for their constituents. 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:21.479 Obviously members are elected, but how important are relationships in 1:18:21.600 --> 1:18:24.240 terms of getting ahead? You know, like in the entertainment business, 1:18:24.240 --> 1:18:26.599 you don't know anybody, you can't even start. Is it 1:18:26.600 --> 1:18:27.519 the same in DC? 1:18:28.680 --> 1:18:29.240 Yeah? 1:18:29.840 --> 1:18:30.360 I think it is. 1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:33.599 You know, Reagan famously said DC's Hollywood for ugly people. 1:18:34.800 --> 1:18:37.920 It's it's the same thing. It's it's I mean, we 1:18:38.040 --> 1:18:41.679 are nothing except for the decisions that we make. Right. 1:18:42.200 --> 1:18:45.880 This is just a job where people are everything. You 1:18:45.920 --> 1:18:47.599 need other people to get anything done. 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:52.360 And what issues might you see coming down the pike 1:18:52.439 --> 1:18:54.080 in the ip Era area. 1:18:55.520 --> 1:18:57.800 It's really hard to see past ip I mean for 1:18:57.960 --> 1:19:03.599 past Ai that that is the big thing that's happening 1:19:03.680 --> 1:19:10.920 right now. I don't know what happens after this. There 1:19:11.080 --> 1:19:15.240 is the people have talked about some tweaks to the 1:19:15.320 --> 1:19:20.400 Music Modernization Act, but that's kind of the that's not 1:19:20.439 --> 1:19:22.360 the kind of thing you're talking about though, in terms 1:19:22.400 --> 1:19:26.479 of big issues, it's it's really it's it's AI. 1:19:27.080 --> 1:19:30.920 And what is the breadth of what might be addressed 1:19:31.600 --> 1:19:33.120 legislatively on AI? 1:19:36.360 --> 1:19:42.000 So you know, when it comes to like economy wide 1:19:42.120 --> 1:19:48.799 AI that you're talking about, everything from like a GAO 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:52.760 study on understanding AI might get passed by Congress to 1:19:52.920 --> 1:19:59.680 like full scaled, robust regulatory regime. I think that there 1:19:59.760 --> 1:20:03.920 is a a growing consensus that like it is premature 1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:08.719 to sort of regulate AI right now, that just given 1:20:08.760 --> 1:20:10.800 that this is a worldwide phenomenon, we don't want to 1:20:10.800 --> 1:20:13.240 do anything to sort of hold back the United States 1:20:13.479 --> 1:20:15.800 that we don't know enough yet to jump to those 1:20:15.880 --> 1:20:23.120 kind of conclusions. In the music space, in particular, the 1:20:23.200 --> 1:20:29.040 conversations revolving around protecting you know, name, image and likeness, 1:20:29.080 --> 1:20:33.520 which is not really a copyright question. It's a trademark 1:20:33.600 --> 1:20:36.160 question more than anything else. 1:20:36.200 --> 1:20:37.320 And sort of. 1:20:39.320 --> 1:20:40.599 That's generally what's happening. 1:20:41.560 --> 1:20:44.160 So what would you tell to someone who wanted to 1:20:44.200 --> 1:20:45.840 work on Capitol Hill? 1:20:47.720 --> 1:20:51.439 Would they do it? And most people that want to 1:20:51.479 --> 1:20:54.519 do it this might surprise you and your listeners to hear, 1:20:54.640 --> 1:20:58.200 but over the years, I've met a lot of people 1:20:58.280 --> 1:21:00.519 that are like, I'd love to work on cap Hill 1:21:01.439 --> 1:21:04.240 and most of them do you know, if if it's 1:21:04.280 --> 1:21:06.080 something you want bad enough and you have coffee with 1:21:06.200 --> 1:21:11.080 enough people, the churned people leaving people coming is so 1:21:11.160 --> 1:21:13.080 great that like you'll find something to do. 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.160 And to what degree does being an attorney help you? 1:21:19.320 --> 1:21:22.240 It's complicated a lot of people. I would say if 1:21:22.240 --> 1:21:24.240 you were to ask, like, what's the normal path on 1:21:24.280 --> 1:21:29.040 Capitol Hill? Uh, people are interns and then they are 1:21:29.200 --> 1:21:33.840 like staff assistants, and then legislative correspondence that a legislative assistant, 1:21:34.160 --> 1:21:37.840 then maybe a legislative director. Then maybe they'll go to committee. 1:21:37.960 --> 1:21:41.240 It's sort of this process of you know, learning learning 1:21:41.280 --> 1:21:43.479 the rope. There's nowhere to learn it unless you're there. 1:21:44.400 --> 1:21:47.479 If you're an attorney, it's probably harder to find a 1:21:47.560 --> 1:21:49.800 job on Capitol Hill because you probably want to go 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:52.719 work at a committee. Those jobs are a little harder 1:21:52.760 --> 1:21:57.320 to get. But certainly it helps if you if you have, 1:21:57.600 --> 1:22:01.400 if you have your law degree to do the work. 1:22:01.439 --> 1:22:03.320 But I'm not sure it gives you like an advantage 1:22:03.400 --> 1:22:04.479 in getting up there. 1:22:05.479 --> 1:22:08.120 Okay, so what would you tell to someone who has 1:22:08.160 --> 1:22:11.280 an issue that they would like a legislative solution to. 1:22:12.200 --> 1:22:16.640 I'm somewhere, I'm in an industry, I see a problem. 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:20.160 What would be my best step moving forward to ultimately 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:24.000 get my case heard by Congress and hopefully get some 1:22:24.200 --> 1:22:25.000 action taken. 1:22:27.360 --> 1:22:33.880 I would tell that person to call me, but I 1:22:33.880 --> 1:22:38.519 would say, if you contact your representative's office, they're going 1:22:38.600 --> 1:22:45.000 to take the meeting. You'd be astounded at the number 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:48.320 of letters offices reply to and the number of meetings 1:22:48.320 --> 1:22:50.240 people take. If you ask for a meeting and you 1:22:50.280 --> 1:22:54.720 don't get a reply, ask again and ask them who 1:22:54.720 --> 1:22:57.920 else you should talk to. You know, if you are 1:22:58.040 --> 1:23:03.240 a sophisticated, you know company that's having an issue, you 1:23:03.400 --> 1:23:05.320 probably are going to want to hire a law firm 1:23:05.360 --> 1:23:09.200 that just knows how Capitol Hill works. You know, they'll 1:23:09.280 --> 1:23:12.599 kind of direct you in the right, right right areas like, oh, 1:23:12.640 --> 1:23:15.560 don't go to that person you know that's a Democrat 1:23:15.600 --> 1:23:17.640 that will never agree with you, or don't go to 1:23:17.720 --> 1:23:22.519 that person they're not on any relevant committees, or you know, 1:23:22.720 --> 1:23:25.479 go to go to this person. Ideally, you probably want 1:23:25.520 --> 1:23:28.320 to get a meeting with the you know, chair of 1:23:28.360 --> 1:23:33.040 the relevant subcommittee or committee and see if they'll hear 1:23:33.080 --> 1:23:33.320 you out. 1:23:34.280 --> 1:23:37.479 And is being a pest a good thing or a 1:23:37.520 --> 1:23:38.040 bad thing? 1:23:39.880 --> 1:23:42.240 It can be both. I think it depends what kind 1:23:42.280 --> 1:23:46.240 of a pest you are. You know, the people that 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:50.680 send like all caps emails every week. Uh, that's not 1:23:50.760 --> 1:23:55.519 a good strategy. Uh, you know, but people that are like, Hey, 1:23:55.560 --> 1:23:58.000 I'm a constituent, I've got this issue, can you help 1:23:58.040 --> 1:24:00.479 me out. If you don't get a reply, like, you're 1:24:00.520 --> 1:24:02.439 going to make the person who's reading that email feel 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:04.519 guilty they didn't reply to you, and they're probably going 1:24:04.560 --> 1:24:05.120 to get back to you. 1:24:06.320 --> 1:24:10.000 Okay, Tyler, thanks for taking the time with my audience 1:24:10.040 --> 1:24:14.040 and illuminating what's going on in DC and inside the 1:24:14.080 --> 1:24:16.040 Congress and the Judiciary Committee. 1:24:16.080 --> 1:24:18.800 Hey, Bob, my pleasure. I love the showgir to. 1:24:18.800 --> 1:24:22.559 Be with you until next time. This is Bob left 1:24:22.600 --> 1:24:22.840 six