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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Set podcasts.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Tyler Grimm, who's chief counsel for

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Speaker 1: Policy and Strategy at the Judiciary Committee of the US

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Speaker 1: House of Representatives.

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Speaker 2: Tyler, you went to see Roger Daltrey last night? How

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Speaker 2: was he?

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Speaker 3: It was awesome for being eighty years old. He really

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Speaker 3: brought it. I gotta say it was kind of f

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Speaker 3: I've probably seen The Who a dozen times in my life,

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Speaker 3: never saw Adultrey alone. He was great. He could tell

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Speaker 3: he really wanted to swing the microphone, but eighty that

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Speaker 3: just wasn't happening. He did bring it out for the encore.

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Speaker 3: We got a couple couple of Mike throws. He was awesome.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's got Pete Townsend's brother Simon up there

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Speaker 3: with him. He seems to be really happy doing his

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Speaker 3: own thing. He you know, played some covers, played mostly

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Speaker 3: Whose songs, played a couple of his original songs. It

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Speaker 3: was great.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're a relatively young guy. How do you become

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Speaker 2: a fan of the Who?

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Speaker 3: I grew up on the Who. My parents were really

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Speaker 3: into music. We started going to concerts when I was

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Speaker 3: like five years old. That's basically like what we did

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Speaker 3: when we grew up. We didn't go to a lot

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Speaker 3: of sports games. We went to concerts. I would look

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Speaker 3: and see what concerts were coming to town, beg my

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Speaker 3: parents to take me. I think my first concert was

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Speaker 3: Elton John and Billy Joel and the second one was

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Speaker 3: Tom Petty h And I was just addicted to live

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Speaker 3: music from a really young age. My household was it

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Speaker 3: was the Stones, it was the Who, primarily the Who

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Speaker 3: you know later Pearl Jam, but it was a rock

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Speaker 3: and roll house.

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Speaker 2: How about acts that are of a newer vintage? Are

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Speaker 2: you a fan of those?

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Speaker 3: Definitely? I do. Like I really love Pearl Jam's new album.

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Speaker 3: I think I think, uh it's there, it's their best

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Speaker 3: piece of work in years. Really like I like Gaslight

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Speaker 3: Ants them a lot. I like Camp a lot. I

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Speaker 3: saw Zach Bryan earlier this year. He was awesome newer music,

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Speaker 3: sort of of the rock variety. But I listen to anything.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm the Judiciary Committee. How much can you

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Speaker 2: talk music with? And are the members fans of music?

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Speaker 3: Uh, there's a lot of music fans on the Judiciary Committee, Actually, Bob,

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Speaker 3: it is you know, to set the stage here like

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Speaker 3: music and movies. We are the primary committee for the

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Speaker 3: entertainment industry. Anything copyright, any IP, anything anti trust comes

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Speaker 3: through the committee. And we have some members that, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure listen to all that much music. Other

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Speaker 3: members that play instruments, that are in bands. We've got

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Speaker 3: a member, Kelly Armstrong, who will be the next governor

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Speaker 3: of North Dakota. I went to the Zach Bryan concert

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Speaker 3: with him. Earlier this year. We saw Tyler Childers together.

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Speaker 3: He loves Camp. That's another new band I love, sort

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Speaker 3: of great musical taste. There's a lot of music talk

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Speaker 3: on the committee.

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Speaker 2: How old is Keller?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I'm reluctant to guess, but I'd say I give

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Speaker 3: him the benefit of the doubt and say early forties.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So if we start talking about copyright issues the

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Speaker 2: Judiciary Committee, are they pretty familiar with these things or

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Speaker 2: do you have to brief them and bring them up

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Speaker 2: to speed.

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Speaker 3: You've got brief them, right, I mean, you've got a

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Speaker 3: brief members on any issue, and it varies member to members.

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Speaker 3: Some people are super familiar. They've been doing this for

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Speaker 3: a quarter century or more. They've seen a number of

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Speaker 3: laws passed, very familiar with the issues and the players

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Speaker 3: and what's going on. Others are totally new to this

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Speaker 3: but want to learn. You've got some that aren't there

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Speaker 3: to do copyright, aren't there to do music issues, and

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Speaker 3: you know, they want to understand it for that day

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Speaker 3: and then you know, maybe move on to the next thing.

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Speaker 2: So not everybody's educated, certainly outside America about the ins

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Speaker 2: and outs of the government. What exactly is the Judiciary Committee?

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Speaker 3: Sure, so we've obviously got the Congress, which is comprised

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Speaker 3: of the House and the Senate. In the House, all

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Speaker 3: the work that's done to get a bill to the

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Speaker 3: floor before it becomes law is really done at committees,

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Speaker 3: and the committee's di eied off work by topic area.

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Speaker 3: And so we've got all intellectual property at the Judiciary Committee.

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Speaker 3: So if you're going to write a bill that has

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Speaker 3: to do with patents or trademarks or copyrights, it will

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Speaker 3: come before the committee. The committee will have what we

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Speaker 3: call a markup where we'll consider bills, try to amend them,

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Speaker 3: debate them, and then vote on them. If a bill

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Speaker 3: is successfully voted out of the committee, that's sort of

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Speaker 3: primed for floor action, and the floor could take up

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Speaker 3: the bill, and then you see what the Senate does

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Speaker 3: and see if the President will sign it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's start at the ground floor. There's a Judiciary

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Speaker 2: Committee in the House. Is there an equivalent committee in

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Speaker 2: the Senate?

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Speaker 3: There is Judiciary Committee in the Senate, and they both

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Speaker 3: have sort of subcommittees more dedicated to specific issue areas.

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Speaker 3: So there's an intellectual property subcommittee in both the House

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Speaker 3: and the Senate, and that's where a lot of this

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Speaker 3: work will get done.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So let's say I'm someone who wants a passage

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Speaker 2: of a bill. Where do I start with the House

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Speaker 2: or the Senate. Does it make any.

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Speaker 3: Difference, doesn't make a lot of doesn't make a lot

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Speaker 3: of difference. There are some exceptions, some kinds of bills

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Speaker 3: have to originate in the House, but in this case,

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Speaker 3: by and large, either chamber a bill could start it.

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Speaker 3: So let's say that you're someone who sees some problem

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Speaker 3: in the music royalty space and you think there needs

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Speaker 3: to be a fixed You probably call your member, ideally

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Speaker 3: a member of the Judiciary committee, pitch them on the issue,

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Speaker 3: try and get them to write a bill. They'd write

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Speaker 3: a bill, it would get introduced into the House, it

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Speaker 3: would get referred to the Judiciary Committee, and then the

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Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee could take up that bill, and the rest

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Speaker 3: of that process would play out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we hear about the House and the Senate

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Speaker 2: having different bills and then needing to come up with one.

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Speaker 2: How does that work?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this happens all the time. Usually, you know,

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Speaker 3: let's say bill gets all the way through in the House,

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Speaker 3: passes on the floor, everybody's happy. A bill that's slightly

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Speaker 3: different makes it all the way through the Senate more

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Speaker 3: often than not. As a House guy, I'm sad to

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Speaker 3: say the House will take up the Senate bill. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: the Senate takes up the House bill, and then whichever

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Speaker 3: one passes both chambers will get sent to the President

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Speaker 3: to be signed it to law.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's assume I'm oblivious and I want to

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Speaker 2: introduce a bill. I want to get something done. In

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Speaker 2: terms of the House, welir Senate, they're essentially equal, and

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Speaker 2: it's more of who I know to get started. What

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Speaker 2: would motivate me to go to one chamber or the other?

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Speaker 3: I'd say, it's really it's who you know, who you

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Speaker 3: think is going to champion the issue, who has a

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Speaker 3: history of working on these issues. Maybe who has seniority,

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Speaker 3: who's got more clout, and one of the chambers, who's

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Speaker 3: closer to leadership that would put the bill on the floor.

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Speaker 3: All of that, someone's going to be a good advocate

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Speaker 3: for you.

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Speaker 2: Really. Okay, you talked about copyright. The Judiciary Committee in

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Speaker 2: the House, which is where you work. What other issues

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Speaker 2: do they address? What other subcommittees? What is the whole

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Speaker 2: of the Judiciary Committee.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question, Bob. So you've got intellectual property there,

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Speaker 3: so all the things I mentioned. You've got the whole

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Speaker 3: court system the federal judiciary. You've got antitrust, so anti

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Speaker 3: trust at the FTC and and you've got immigration, You've

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Speaker 3: got crime, you've got First Amendment issues. It is a

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Speaker 3: large array of issues at Judiciary.

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Speaker 2: Okay, just you know, to paint the picture. There's the

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Speaker 2: Judiciary Committee. What are some of the other committees the

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Speaker 2: House has?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So there's the Budget Committee. Obviously they're writing the budget.

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Speaker 3: You've got the Energy and Commerce Committee. You know, they're

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Speaker 3: dealing with healthcare and energy and sort of a lot

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Speaker 3: of economy wide issues. You've got the Ways and Means Committee,

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Speaker 3: which is dealing with taxes, You've got the Science Committee,

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Speaker 3: which is dealing with all sorts of science issues, including

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Speaker 3: like NASA. You've got the Veterans Affairs Committee. I think

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Speaker 3: there are you know, eighteen ish committees on Capitol Hill.

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Speaker 2: And if you're in one committee, are you in that

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Speaker 2: committee only? Or could you be in multiple committees?

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Speaker 3: So there are some committees which we call a committees,

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Speaker 3: and those are sort of exclusive, most notably like A

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Speaker 3: Ways and Means and Energy and Commerce, and more often

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Speaker 3: than not, if you're on that committee, you're only on

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Speaker 3: that committee and you're not serving on other committees. But

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Speaker 3: other than that, you could be on two, three, four committees.

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Speaker 3: They keep them busy.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how many people are on the Judiciary Committee?

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Speaker 3: It's about forty two.

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Speaker 2: And how do they decide who's on the committee?

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Speaker 3: Uh, there's something called the Steering Committee, and the Steering

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Speaker 3: Committee basically gets together and they assign members uh, the

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Speaker 3: various committees based on member interest in where there are vacancies.

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Speaker 3: But typically, once you're on a committee as a member

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Speaker 3: of Congress, you stay there. You're not going to kick

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Speaker 3: you off unless you move up to an a committee

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Speaker 3: or you you know, try to move over to some

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Speaker 3: other committee. I think they really value the institutional knowledge

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Speaker 3: that builds up. We're talking about copy right. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you were there for a bunch of these fights,

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Speaker 3: you've sort of seen how it all plays out. You

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Speaker 3: can use that knowledge in the future. There's a premium

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Speaker 3: people put on that, so you know, we like when

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Speaker 3: people stick around.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Obviously the constituency of the House changes every two years,

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Speaker 2: So how would that affect the makeup of the committee.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so, Uh, you know, if a member loses or

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Speaker 3: resigns or isn't there anymore, Uh, they won't be on

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Speaker 3: the committee. That's lot'll have to be filled.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's say, you know, we have an election and

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Speaker 2: let's just say they're four hundred and fifty eight members

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Speaker 2: of Congress.

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Speaker 3: Is that a correct on a good day? A good day,

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Speaker 3: We've got.

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Speaker 2: Leave about the bulls, like I got to go back

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Speaker 2: to school. I don't know what you know, especially with

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Speaker 2: Nate Silver with the exact numbers four fifty ye, I

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Speaker 2: don't know where I got that from. But let's say hypothetically,

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Speaker 2: it's you know, two seventeen to eighteen, and then there's

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Speaker 2: an election and one party ends up with one hundred

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Speaker 2: and the other one ends up with three hundred plus.

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Speaker 2: Can't believe I got the number of representatives wrong? People

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Speaker 2: to kill me. Would that effect the percentage of one

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Speaker 2: party or the other party and making up the Judiciary Committee?

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Speaker 3: Not necessarily, I've I think it's been quite some time

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Speaker 3: since we've had a disparity that big. You know, typically

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Speaker 3: the ratios remain about the same, you know, no matter

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Speaker 3: who's in charge. There's so many Republicans, so many Democrats

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Speaker 3: on the committee. In the Senate, it is proportional. The

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Speaker 3: Senate's a whole other animal. The Senate's sort of like

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Speaker 3: the Committee's laws are allocated proportional to who controls the chamber.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you're saying on the Judicial Eury Committee, essentially

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Speaker 2: half are Democrats and half Republicans.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, there's a who's ever in the majority has

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Speaker 3: a majority of the committee slots also, but the ratio

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Speaker 3: between them basically stays the same.

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Speaker 2: It defined ratio in this case.

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Speaker 3: So if there are you know, twenty five Republicans on

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Speaker 3: the committee and seventeen Democrats, it would that that would flip.

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Speaker 2: You mean, if the other party took control in the

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Speaker 2: same numbers exactly exactly, Okay, So let's say, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a member of the Juiciary Committee and my party

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Speaker 2: does poorly in the next election, will I lose my seat?

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Speaker 3: You could? You could if you know you're a newer

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Speaker 3: member of the committee and the ratio gets cut to

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Speaker 3: the point where like they've got to eliminate. It's some

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Speaker 3: slots you could lose your seat on the committee.

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Speaker 2: And who is chairperson in the committee?

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Speaker 3: The chair right now is Jim Jordan from Ohio, and

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Speaker 3: the ranking members Jerry Nadler from New York.

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Speaker 2: And how do they pick those That's.

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Speaker 3: Picked by the steering committee. Also in the it's a

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Speaker 3: little different on the the Democrats have a different process.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of the whole caucus desize. The Republican side,

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Speaker 3: there is a steering committee process and they sort of

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Speaker 3: vote on who's going to be chair. Once you're chair,

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Speaker 3: you've got the job for six years. If you're a Republican.

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Speaker 3: Democrats do it a little differently. You can kind of

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Speaker 3: be chair in perpetuity.

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Speaker 2: So the steering committee. Each party has the equivalent thereof

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Speaker 2: that's right, that's right, okay, And whoever has the majority

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Speaker 2: gets to decide the chairperson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you get to decide your relative leadership on the committee.

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Speaker 3: So if you're in the minority, you would choose the

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Speaker 3: ranking member, you know, the top person on the committee

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Speaker 3: for the minority, and if you're in the majority, you

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Speaker 3: choose the chairperson, top person on there for the majority.

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Speaker 2: As a practical matter, what does it mean if you

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Speaker 2: were the party that is in control and you're the

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Speaker 2: chairperson as opposed to the opposing party.

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Speaker 3: Bob, it means everything. Really, the House is a majoritarian institution,

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Speaker 3: and so when you're in control, you set the agenda,

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Speaker 3: you decide what bills move, what bills don't move.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I'm trying to rationalize how they came up with

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Speaker 2: four fifty eight maybe five thirty eight and eight silver.

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Speaker 2: You know, I made a mistake there, it is I

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Speaker 2: have to own it. Not going to cut it. So,

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Speaker 2: if you are on the Judiciary Committee, might you be

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Speaker 2: on multiple subcommittee?

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Speaker 3: Yes, you definitely are. You're probably on at least two,

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Speaker 3: maybe three.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So there is a specific subcommittee for intellectual there is,

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Speaker 2: and what would be the breadth what would be some

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Speaker 2: of the issues that would be addressed in that subcommittee?

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Speaker 3: So it's it, And to be clear, it's intellectual property

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Speaker 3: and the courts and the Internet. Those are the three

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Speaker 3: sort of categories of topics under the subcommittee's jurisdiction. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, we've had a bunch of hearings this year

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Speaker 3: on AI and copyright. We've had hearings on other sort

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Speaker 3: of music royalty issues. There is a hearing just yesterday

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Speaker 3: on third party litigation funding. We've had hearings on patentability

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Speaker 3: and patentability related to AI. It really runs the gamut

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Speaker 3: of all the all the AI, all the all the

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Speaker 3: IP issues.

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Speaker 2: Rather, what's the third pretty litigation funding? What is that?

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Speaker 3: So this is the There are a bunch of lawsuits

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Speaker 3: where we'll say one company sues another and the accusation

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Speaker 3: is that, you know, the company doing the suing has

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Speaker 3: a third party backer. We'll say, someone with a you know,

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Speaker 3: financial stake and the outcome of the case and that party,

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Speaker 3: that sort of third party might not be known to

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Speaker 3: the public or to the court. And so there's a

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Speaker 3: movement of foot to get transparency so people know who's suing,

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Speaker 3: what their motivations are, who's sort of backing the lawsuit.

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Speaker 2: Okay, as we speak, there's a big brew haha with Spotify,

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Speaker 2: which now has more than music has books and they're

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Speaker 2: bundling and they want to reduce rate. Is this something

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Speaker 2: a that the Justice Committee might address? B Is it

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Speaker 2: something you're already hearing about.

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Speaker 3: It's definitely something we're hearing about. You know.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: The music publishers very upset about the situation. You know,

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Speaker 3: they think that Spotify is is exploiting a loophole an

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Speaker 3: agreement that they made in twenty twenty two. Spotify basically

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Speaker 3: contends that you know, everybody signed off on this, that

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Speaker 3: the publishers are you know, in fact, making more money

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Speaker 3: a year over year and they shouldn't have anything to

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Speaker 3: complain about that. It was I think totally foreseeable that

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Speaker 3: they'd introduced audiobooks onto the platform.

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Speaker 2: So okay, that's the issue. To what degree is something

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Speaker 2: happening on the issue Justice Committee now?

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Speaker 3: So the committee you hear when when these issues happen,

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Speaker 3: there are a lot of sort of funny thing about

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Speaker 3: the music space. A lot of this happens between those parties.

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Speaker 3: You know, they might they're yelling at each other, trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out some settlement, they might sue each other,

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Speaker 3: but at the same time they're keeping the Committee apprized

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Speaker 3: of this. They might get members of Congress to send

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Speaker 3: letters complaining in one direction or the other. But for

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Speaker 3: right now, the issue is kind of new. I haven't

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Speaker 3: heard of anyone, you know, doing anything in particular about

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Speaker 3: these complaints. I know that we're monitoring it, though, and

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Speaker 3: we'll kind of we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 2: Okay. When you say getting someone to write a letter,

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Speaker 2: you mean a member writing a letter to the Judiciary Committee.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean a member of the Judiciary Committee or

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Speaker 3: even a member off of the committee. This is a

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Speaker 3: really common practice. You know, one maybe maybe the songwriters,

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Speaker 3: maybe the publishers, may be you know, somebody else interested

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Speaker 3: in this will say, hey, you know, ex member, I'm

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Speaker 3: really upset about this. I think this is a great injustice,

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Speaker 3: or I think that, you know, the songwriters are wrong

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Speaker 3: to be upset about this. Send a letter to the

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Speaker 3: other party asking questions and sort of raise the issue,

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Speaker 3: and that kind of telegraph to the parties the Congress

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Speaker 3: is paying attention. Maybe there will be a hearing, Maybe

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Speaker 3: this will get elevated. It's kind of more often than

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Speaker 3: not to put people back on their heels.

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Speaker 2: So what does it take to have a hearing?

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Speaker 3: Well, so at the IP Subcommittee, which is shaired right

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Speaker 3: now by darryl Isa from California and the ranking members

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Speaker 3: Hanna Johnson in Georgia, they do most things on a

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Speaker 3: bipartisan basis, and they'll sort of agree we're gonna have

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Speaker 3: a hearing, but it's really it's up to him. He'll say,

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Speaker 3: you know, next week, I'm going to have a hearing

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Speaker 3: on you know, patentability of AI generated you know, inventions,

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Speaker 3: and it'll basically happen. The staff will identify witnesses that

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Speaker 3: can talk about these things, will convene a panel, they'll

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Speaker 3: get sworn in, we'll have a hearing. It'll last about

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Speaker 3: two hours. Members will ask questions, and that's kind of

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Speaker 3: the ballgame.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so right now, the Republicans have the majority, so

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Speaker 2: ISA can call or not call a hearing. Can a Democrat,

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Speaker 2: who is the minority right now, call a hearing? No?

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Speaker 3: They can't. Okay, there's like a there's a funky exception

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Speaker 3: to that that I won't bore you with, but generally speaking, no,

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Speaker 3: they you know, they can't call a hearing. They're sort

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Speaker 3: of relying on on the majority to call a hearing.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I think the majority of hearings that

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Speaker 3: mister reis Is proposed have been by part of and

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Speaker 3: just giving the given the nature of the subcommittee.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's not really usually a combative process. One

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Speaker 2: party wants it and one party doesn't.

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Speaker 3: No, not in this space. So that's not how these

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Speaker 3: issues break down. It's not really like a red versus

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Speaker 3: blue thing. There's you know, other things going on that

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Speaker 3: sort of divide members.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's just use, for an example, the music industry.

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Speaker 2: I gotta bug up my rear end and for whatever

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Speaker 2: channel I reach, ISA, what's it going to take to

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Speaker 2: actually have a hearing where you might say, hey, all

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Speaker 2: this stuff is in evidence, I don't need a hearing.

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Speaker 3: He's got to be convinced that it's it's sort of

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Speaker 3: worth gathering the members of the committee and hearing testimony

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Speaker 3: on this. Sometimes it's we might consider more often than not,

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Speaker 3: it's like we're going to consider legislation on this topic.

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Speaker 3: So we need to get a better understanding. We have

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Speaker 3: to build a legislative record of testimony in support or

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Speaker 3: against a bill. But you know, it's up to him

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Speaker 3: if you came in and how persuasive meeting and he

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Speaker 3: to call a.

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Speaker 2: Hearing, okay, And why the two hour limit.

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Speaker 3: There's no two hour limit. I'm just that's an approximate

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Speaker 3: time for about the length of the subcommittee hearing.

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Speaker 2: So let's assume we schedule a hearing. Does everybody on

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Speaker 2: the subcommittee show up?

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Speaker 3: They make their best effort to show up. As you noted,

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Speaker 3: members are on multiple committees, so they're very busy. Most

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Speaker 3: people try and come for at least part of it.

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Speaker 3: You know, some hearings you'll have everyone there the whole time.

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Speaker 3: Other times, you know, attendance can be lower than that.

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Speaker 2: Let's assume we have a hearing. How do we apportion

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Speaker 2: time amongst the members who are in attendance.

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Speaker 3: You've got five minutes to ask questions?

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Speaker 2: And can you ever can da all? Isus in charge? Now?

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Speaker 2: Can he ever say? Well, you know, you're on a

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Speaker 2: good thread. You got a few more minutes.

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Speaker 3: Not really, that's very frowned upon and not allowed for

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Speaker 3: in the rules. You can do anything by what's called

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Speaker 3: unanimous consent. Really, you could say, you know, like if

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Speaker 3: nobody objects, they could give whoever, you know, some extra time,

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Speaker 3: allow the witness to answer more questions. They could also

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Speaker 3: do a second round where they'll go around and everybody

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Speaker 3: gets five minutes again.

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Speaker 2: And what if for some reason, because I'm spacing out,

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Speaker 2: or is it another sub committee, I get my five

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Speaker 2: minutes and I asked questions if somebody already asked, let's.

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Speaker 3: See, I think you hope nobody notices.

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Speaker 2: Probably, Okay, so let's soon we're going to have a hearing.

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Speaker 2: How many people might testify? And how do you decide

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Speaker 2: who actually is testified?

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Speaker 3: Got four people testify? The staff will reach out to

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Speaker 3: a bunch of witnesses, the people they think could be witnesses,

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Speaker 3: sort of feel them out, get a sense of their expertise,

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Speaker 3: and then you know, if it makes sense to have

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Speaker 3: them there and they're available, they'll they'll show up. So

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Speaker 3: it's only four, No, No, it could be as many

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Speaker 3: as as many as as the chair wants to have. Really,

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Speaker 3: sometimes there are multiple panels. You know, you might have

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Speaker 3: a panel of government witnesses and then a panel of

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Speaker 3: expert witnesses. Sometimes it's one, you know, when we have

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Speaker 3: like the copyright register up, it's usually just her testifying.

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Speaker 3: So it really depends.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Now we see hearings and we see someone make

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Speaker 2: a statement before questions do I get the right to

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Speaker 2: make a statement. When do I get to make a

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Speaker 2: statement as opposed to just answer questions?

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Speaker 3: You get to make a statement at the very beginning.

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Speaker 3: You have five minutes to make a statement.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's assume I'm testifying. To what degree are these

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Speaker 2: people prepared? And to what deg we should they prepare?

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Speaker 3: If you're a witness testifying before the committee, I would

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Speaker 3: say you spend a ton of time preparing because you

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Speaker 3: never know you're under oath. Uh, it's recorded, it's there

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Speaker 3: for all time, it's in the congressional record. You know,

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Speaker 3: people usually do what's called a murder board will. They'll

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Speaker 3: sit down, have lawyers with them, you know, run through

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Speaker 3: questions they might be asked and how they're going to

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Speaker 3: answer them. That's almost certainly the case for any sort

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Speaker 3: of high stakes testimony. You know, if if you're a

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Speaker 3: subject matter expert and you know the material cold, you

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Speaker 3: might not prepare that much. I mean you might. You

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Speaker 3: might do this all the time. There are a lot

435
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: of people that testif fight pretty regularly and just kind

436
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 3: of ready for the job.

437
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 2: Okay. From an outside position, it seems that some of

438
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 2: these hearings are grandstanding there's an issue that's in the

439
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: news and they have a hearing and we see some

440
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: reports and then doesn't seem like anything happened.

441
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 3: Sure, I think that happens quite a bit. You know,

442
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 3: when you say nothing happens, there are There are really

443
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: two purposes to a hearing, right You've got a like

444
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 3: a legislative hearing, or like an issue intensive hearing about

445
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: like AI and copyright for instance, That's not going to

446
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 3: be on the front page of the paper. Most people

447
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,719
Speaker 3: aren't going to hear about it unless you're you know,

448
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: unless you're really into this stuff. But if the Attorney

449
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 3: general's testifying or you know, some se EO is testifying

450
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 3: about some oil spill or something, the purpose of that

451
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 3: isn't necessarily like, oh, we're always going to we have

452
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 3: a bill in mind that we're going to move. It

453
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: is you know, Congress has a rule as an oversight function, right,

454
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 3: and so it's sort of looking out to these issues

455
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 3: to see if potentially we need to get involved or

456
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 3: we need to do something, we need to consider legislative action.

457
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 3: That isn't always the case. Most of the cabinet secretaries

458
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 3: had it's customary for them to come up you know

459
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 3: once a year and testify. I think a lot of

460
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: what you're talking about happens at those hearings.

461
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so but let's assume you know it's an issue

462
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: that is going to have to be decided or you

463
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: want to have decided. You have the hearing, Then what

464
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: might happen to move forward towards legislation.

465
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: You have the hearing that gives you the ability to

466
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 3: know where the members are, what they're thinking. You hear

467
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,719
Speaker 3: from the witnesses about potential problems with the bills, different

468
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 3: ways to write whatever bills you're considering on that topic,

469
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: sort of go back process all that information, and then

470
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: you'd probably consider putting one of those bills on the

471
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 3: markup agenda and marking it up marketing and by marking

472
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: it up, sorry I mean, I mean you sort of

473
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: bring it before the committee, You debate the bill, you

474
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 3: amend the bill, and then you sort of vote on

475
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,959
Speaker 3: it and decide whether or not it will leave the

476
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 3: committee and go to the floor.

477
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: And that could take on one end. It never happens.

478
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: Never introduce how fast or how slow can this process

479
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: be marking up the bill?

480
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 3: So as fast as we could notice the markup where

481
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 3: I think it's three business from now, have the mark

482
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: up on the bill and send it to the floor,

483
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 3: and it could be on the floor the next day,

484
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: or you know, after a bill reports filed, so that

485
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: that could all happen very quickly. Or you could mark

486
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 3: up a bill that you send to the floor and

487
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: it never sees action on the floor. Or you could

488
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 3: introduce a bill and it never gets marked up.

489
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: Okay, who writes the bill?

490
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 3: Well, bills are always authored by members of Congress. You know,

491
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: it's whatever member's name is on the bill. That's that's

492
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: who introduced the bill, So they've written the bill.

493
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 2: We hear about lobbyists writing the actual language. Is that

494
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 2: a possibility?

495
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: I don't think is it a possibility. Lobbyists certainly like

496
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 3: make the case for how some length would you want

497
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 3: to build might look like At the end of the day,

498
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: these are people who have an interest in the outcome

499
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 3: of a thing, and they know about their industry and

500
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 3: they don't want you to overlook something, and so they

501
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 3: might play some role in, you know, advising on how

502
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 3: something's written. But members have to consent to you know,

503
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: that language. Usually you take sort of an idea the

504
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: way it works is you would take an idea that

505
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 3: you have and you would work with a group we

506
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 3: have called Legislative Council. There's a bunch of experts there

507
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: that will sort of know how to how to draft

508
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 3: the bills so that it, you know, can change the

509
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 3: law in a way that the courts will interpret the

510
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: way that you want them to.

511
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 2: So what's your job?

512
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 3: So I basically oversee policy for the Judiciary Committee. That

513
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 3: means advising members on what bills we're going to move,

514
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: helping to play a role and you know, talking to

515
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: people about why bill is good, why it's bad, if

516
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: it achieves what they want to achieve, what the outcome

517
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 3: will be, the likelihood of success for the bill you know,

518
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 3: on the floor or going into law. All that it's

519
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 3: sort of being, you know, is staff at the committee.

520
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: Our Our main role is advising members and helping guide

521
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: guide the legislative agenda.

522
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: So you it's not only IP you advise on everything

523
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: the Judiciary Committee does.

524
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 3: I advise on Yes, for the most part, We've got

525
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 3: you know, sort of underneath me at the committee there

526
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: are other subject matter experts on all these things. And

527
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 3: you know, I would say that I spend a lot

528
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 3: of my time in the antitrust and IP space. That's

529
00:32:58,800 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: where I spend most of my time.

530
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: Okay, So in this department, who do you report to?

531
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 3: Miss it? Everybody that works for the committee reports to

532
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 3: the chair. Okay, so I worked for all the members

533
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 3: of the committee, but we report to the chair.

534
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: Okay, So you're the you're the head guy in policy.

535
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 3: I think that's that's fair.

536
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: And you're an attorney. How many attorneys work for you?

537
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: There are on staff about one hundred attorneys. I'm reluctant

538
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: to say that these people work for me, but work

539
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 3: with me. You know, eighty ish.

540
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 2: People, and are they all attorneys?

541
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: The vast majority of them are attorneys?

542
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, So let's go back to something you brought up, Ai.

543
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: So I remember, back when you were a little kid,

544
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 2: they had hearings on Napster and ultimately the issue was

545
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: decided by courts that Master was copyright infringement based on

546
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 2: a centralized database. Then we had Khazah, Then we had lockers,

547
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: and then we had Daniel Leck came up with a

548
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: good model for streaming, and the rest is history. If

549
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 2: I'm in tech, should I be looking for a legislative solution?

550
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 2: Or do I say, A, these issues are going to

551
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 2: work out anyway, or I should find a business solution.

552
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 3: When it comes to AI, it's it's kind of like a.

553
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 3: I think the issue is multi dimensional and it depends

554
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 3: what problem you're trying to solve for right, there are

555
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 3: definitely some people in tech that are saying you need

556
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 3: to regulate AI. Some of those people are incumbent players

557
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 3: who sort of are in at the ground floor at AI,

558
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 3: and there's concern that the regulations that they want might help,

559
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 3: you know, of protect their incumbency there there. You know,

560
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: if we're talking about music and AI, I think it's

561
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 3: a it's a different conversation. You know, you've got sort

562
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 3: of the Copyright Office who's looking at these issues and

563
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 3: there I think soon going to put out some recommendations

564
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 3: about how they're thinking about AI. You've got the course

565
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 3: looking at this in terms of what is fair use,

566
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: what is not fair use, and you know AI training

567
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 3: models and how that will work, you know. And then

568
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 3: I think you've got Congress taking up questions related to

569
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 3: protecting voice and likeness and to some extent like record

570
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: keeping and transparency. You know, these are all issues that

571
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: are that are hot right now. I don't think that

572
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: the situation we're in today is unlike you know what

573
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 3: happened in nineteen ninety nine with Napster. We I've been

574
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 3: working on music issues for almost a decade now on

575
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: on Capitol Hill, and uh, it went from a year

576
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: ago I would hear about AI every couple of months

577
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 3: or someone would want to come talk about it. This year,

578
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,879
Speaker 3: it feels like every day people want to come talk

579
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 3: about AI. I think people are people are really concerned

580
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 3: and they want to get in front of this. I

581
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: think that they don't want a second Napster situation to unfold.

582
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so you say you've been working on music issues

583
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 2: for ten years. What are some of the music issues

584
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 2: or what are the music issues you're working on.

585
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 3: Well, in the last ten years, the biggest thing was

586
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 3: definitely the Music Monetization Act that we got signed in

587
00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: a lot in twenty eighteen. You know, you get like

588
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 3: once in a generation, you get a big piece of

589
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: copyright legislation like the Music Monerornization Act, and so that

590
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: was something that was almost you know, a decade and

591
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,879
Speaker 3: a half in the making. Really, the issues that led

592
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: to that came from streaming that that was just a

593
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 3: massive accomplishment that I think brought everyone together. We passed

594
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: it out of the House unanimously, went out of the

595
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 3: Senate unanimously. That was a product of years of hard

596
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 3: work by a lot of people. Today, the issues, it's

597
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 3: like AI and people just trying to figure out what

598
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 3: to do. A lot of these questions are novel. People

599
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: are confused, people are scared, they're they're looking for some

600
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: certainty and to see if Congress is going to do something.

601
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 2: Music Modernization Act, how'd you get that over the finish line.

602
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:07,480
Speaker 3: Well, these issues we're talking that was the the centerpiece

603
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 3: of that bill was fixing the mechanical license process, you know,

604
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 3: and this is this is something that I'm sure most

605
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: of your listeners know, but you know the mechanical license

606
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 3: goes back to the piano role. Right. We created this

607
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 3: in nineteen oh nine after you know, sheet music was

608
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: the only way you sold music in America, right, sold

609
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: sheet music. And that's how you know songwriters, publishers paid money.

610
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 3: Someone who vents the piano roll wax cylinder case goes

611
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 3: up to the Supreme Court and the chord is basically

612
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 3: like this is not a musical work, you know, this

613
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: isn't cheap music. We can't, we won't grant protection to this.

614
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 3: So Congress steps in and they say they create a

615
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 3: protection for a mechanical work, like a reproduction, you know,

616
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 3: a mechanical reproduction of the musical work. It works out,

617
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 3: you know, I think there was like a two cent

618
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: rate in place at the beginning. This stays in place,

619
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 3: I think until nineteen seventy six. They increased it a

620
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 3: little bit, but the mechanical royalty wasn't something people talked about.

621
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 3: There's talk of even getting rid of it at some point,

622
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 3: and then in the streaming era it becomes a massive problem.

623
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 3: You know, back in two thousand and four, people were

624
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 3: talking about all the issues that would they would come

625
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 3: of the problems with the mechanical because what was what

626
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 3: happens is or what did happen? Pre mma was if

627
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: you wanted to mechanically and that's sort of an outdated term,

628
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 3: even though you know it's not piano rules anymore, reproduce

629
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 3: the work. You basically told the copyright office you were

630
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 3: going to do this, and you you know, you paid

631
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: for that, the right to reproduce it. Well with streaming,

632
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 3: all of the streams and all of the songs. It's

633
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 3: just this massive deluge of streaming led to these notices

634
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 3: of intent flooding the Copyright Office. They couldn't keep up.

635
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 3: People weren't getting paid.

636
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: It was.

637
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 3: It was a real mess, and it stayed that way

638
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: for quite some time until twenty eighteen when we passed

639
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 3: the Music Monetization Act, which created like a single entity,

640
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 3: the Music Licensing Collective, which essentially deals with all these

641
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 3: deals with all these issues.

642
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 2: Now, okay, we talk about the Copyright Department setting rates

643
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 2: and increases. How does that work?

644
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 3: So the Copyright Office has a three judge panel called

645
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 3: the Copyright Royalty Board or the CRB. They're charged with

646
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 3: sort of taking into account all evidence, figuring out rates

647
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 3: for certain proceedings, basically finding agreement among parties after they

648
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 3: make their case. That is the process we were talking

649
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 3: about with Spotify. That was a twenty twenty two agreement.

650
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 3: I think it was Phono Records for I think is

651
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: the name of that proceeding where you know they came

652
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: to this agreement that now is obviously back in the

653
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 3: news as a problem.

654
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: Okay, let's switch gears. You say you also have oversight

655
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: into antitrust. We have this dog case against Live Nation

656
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: and its Ticketmaster subsidiary. To what degree is Congress involved

657
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: in that?

658
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 3: It's the situation Congress is monitoring. There's a lot of

659
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: interest in what happened Ticketmaster, what happened with Taylor Swift.

660
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: But DOJ is basically suing Ticketmaster under existing law. So

661
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,879
Speaker 3: that's not something that they'll be able to talk about

662
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 3: publicly or really come testify about until the case is settled.

663
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,239
Speaker 3: Something people have a lot of interest in. People are

664
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 3: saying good things, are bad things about it, But we

665
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 3: don't have a lot of interest in like that suit

666
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 3: in particular. Congress is legislating, I would say, around other

667
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: issues in that space. It was just a couple of

668
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: weeks ago we passed something called the Ticket Act, which

669
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 3: basically provides for all in ticket pricing, so you know,

670
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 3: all the fees and everything is the price you see.

671
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 3: The price you see is the price you get. That

672
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 3: passed the House, you know, I think it likely will

673
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: pass the Senate, but it hasn't yet.

674
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 2: What will it take to pass the Senate.

675
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 3: I think they're working out some disagreements. There's a there's

676
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 3: a Ticket Fairness Act, which is different than the Ticket Act.

677
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 3: You know, there are issues related to like filthy URLs

678
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,280
Speaker 3: and speculative ticketing, and I think people want those added,

679
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 3: and so that's part of the process, is figuring out

680
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 3: like what we'll make it into the final bill that

681
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 3: the Senate passes. I think, like we talked about earlier,

682
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 3: they'll pass something. It'll probably be a little different than

683
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 3: what passed the House, and it'll come back to us.

684
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 3: But that that bill passed that, I don't know if

685
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 3: there was any opposition to it. It was like four

686
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,319
Speaker 3: hundred and sum, you know, to a very small number

687
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:43,720
Speaker 3: of people.

688
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: So on many issues, and ticketing being one of them,

689
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: they're opposing views. How does the committee deal with those

690
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 2: opposing views? And how do I try to get my

691
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 2: side across as opposed to the other side.

692
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: We deal with them by providing a forum for people

693
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 3: to argue and debate and try to convince their colleagues

694
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 3: that they're right and their colleague is wrong, or vice versa.

695
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 3: I think if you want your side to prevail, you

696
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 3: probably come with better arguments, So you spend time with

697
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:26,439
Speaker 3: your colleagues convincing them you know you're wrong to think

698
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 3: this way, think that way about this issue. I'm just like,

699
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: that's really.

700
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: It okay, But that's all within the committee.

701
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: That's right.

702
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: If I'm a company external to the committee, how do

703
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: I get my position argued by a member of the committee.

704
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 3: You meet with them and make the case. It helps

705
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,279
Speaker 3: if you're from the district, you have a connection to

706
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,760
Speaker 3: the member, relationship with them, and make the case. Most

707
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 3: people have a scattershot approach. They'll meet with all the

708
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: members and hope that someone will be their champion.

709
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: You know, there's been a lot of discussion about certainly

710
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: tech companies who didn't have lobbyists and hired lobbyists. The RIUBLEA,

711
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: the Recording Industry Association of America, is essentially a lobbying outfit.

712
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: To what degree are lobbyists important in getting your side

713
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: of the argument heard?

714
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 3: If you're a member, you mean, and you want to

715
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 3: make an argument, how important are lobbyists to like advancing

716
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 3: that argument.

717
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: Yes, or even from externally. I'm a company and I

718
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 2: want to get my representative to hear my argument, to

719
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 2: put forth my argument right.

720
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 3: I think the lobbyists play a sort of function of

721
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 3: they probably know the issue. They're spending all day thinking

722
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 3: about this, building arguments, writing memos, they're willing to go

723
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 3: talk to other people. For you, as a member or

724
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,799
Speaker 3: a staffer, you're probably working on a thousand things that

725
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 3: can't dedicate all of your time to that. And so

726
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 3: I think if you're thinking the same way, you know

727
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 3: someone from a company is thinking that that could be helpful.

728
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 2: Okay, let me put it in a different way. If I'm

729
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 2: somebody in Missouri who has a business is successful, and

730
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: I have no presence in Washington, will it behooved me

731
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: to hire a lobbyist or some company washing just to

732
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: make the connection to the people who are addressing or

733
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 2: could address my issue.

734
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: Sure, I think that's probably the normal thing.

735
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: You know.

736
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 3: I've never been in that position where I had to,

737
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 3: you know, come calling on Congress, but I think that's

738
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 3: probably what most people do. You know, you're living in

739
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 3: the Midwest, there is some problem with some law law

740
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 3: that you think is hurting your company. You think that

741
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 3: Congress should look at changing that. You're probably going to

742
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 3: look to retain some law firm or lobbyist in DC

743
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 3: that can help you navigate the process. That's right.

744
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:18,399
Speaker 2: So in the Judicial Committee, what music entertainment issues are

745
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: presently being debated.

746
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 3: Well, certainly all of these AI issues are being debated.

747
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 3: That's that's a really nascent conversation. In some ways, we're

748
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 3: taking a lot of testimony. We're hearing from a lot

749
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 3: of folks, what what could happen in the future, what

750
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 3: people want us to do. That's there. You know, there

751
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:49,120
Speaker 3: is this issue of the terrestrial performance, right. This is

752
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 3: something that has been around for you know, fifty one

753
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 3: hundred years. You know, the sound recording artists basically say

754
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 3: they should get paid for being played on radio and

755
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: they're not. Radio obviously has a different take on it,

756
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 3: and people are split. But that that's something that's that's

757
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,479
Speaker 3: always alive. Uh, And I think we're having a hearing

758
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 3: on that issue in a couple of weeks.

759
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: In any other music, copyright, entertainment issues that are either

760
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: actively or floating around the committee.

761
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 3: It's really it's all it's been all a I uh,

762
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:38,839
Speaker 3: you know, almost all the time. This Congress, I mean,

763
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,120
Speaker 3: the ticketmaster thing is a live discussion that that people

764
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: are people are having. But outside of that, relatively you know,

765
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 3: relatively calm.

766
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 2: Okay, So you know, Congress does not have a reputation

767
00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 2: for moving quickly, certainly in the technological sphere, will movement

768
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 2: in the AI regulation area come from Congress or will

769
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: come from an external source?

770
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 3: Well it Congress has said, uh, this Congress, We've got

771
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:19,919
Speaker 3: this AI task Force's equal representation of Republicans and Democrats.

772
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 3: They're holding all these meetings, hearing from you know, the

773
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 3: defense industry, that you know, tech companies, everybody's coming in

774
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: for these sort of forums. And I think this panel

775
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 3: at the end of the year will make some recommendations

776
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 3: about what they think Congress should do on these issues.

777
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 3: You have the administration of doing things via executive order

778
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 3: looking at you know, there are things that executive branch

779
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 3: agencies can be doing with AI. Senator Schumer put out

780
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 3: a report about AI. There's a lot of happening. How

781
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 3: asked all of that will come together? Hard to tell.

782
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. I don't think anything will happen before

783
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 3: the end of the year. I don't think anyone would

784
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 3: disagree with that.

785
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an issue with even the players can't agree

786
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: on and within the committee. Does this break down by

787
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,319
Speaker 2: political parties or is everybody basically you know, learning and

788
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: thinking what the best thing to do is.

789
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 3: People are learning and thinking about what the best thing

790
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 3: to do is on AI hardly any like tech issues,

791
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 3: IP issues, they don't break down on party lines. They

792
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 3: really it's there's a whole almost an entirely different paradigm

793
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 3: for thinking about like copyright protection and what people have.

794
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 3: You know, some people would say more it should be cheaper,

795
00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:00,680
Speaker 3: the government shouldn't provide as much protection for creative work.

796
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: So other people are like, that's crazy. You know, we

797
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: need we are way under compensating, you know, creative artists.

798
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 3: We should really increase, increase the rights people have. I

799
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 3: think it sort of breaks down along along those lines

800
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 3: more than more than anything else.

801
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:21,359
Speaker 2: Okay, you're saying these hearings, these are traditional hearings that

802
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: we're talking about with every member gets five minutes or

803
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 2: might I come in and speak to five representatives? What

804
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: are all these hearings you're referencing on AI?

805
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 3: These are not hearings. This is a what we'd call

806
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:40,439
Speaker 3: a task force, and so it is a more informal thing.

807
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 3: They've got some rules in place where people come in

808
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,399
Speaker 3: and I think they give them five minutes. It might

809
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 3: be ten, but it's it's a more informal sort of

810
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: tribunal for hearing for hear hearing out the issues, and

811
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 3: I think a more freewheeling discussion. They try and you know,

812
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 3: keep some rules in place. People are still asking questions

813
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 3: of the witness, but it's a little looser and I

814
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 3: don't think there's a record being built. It's more of

815
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: a you know, a place where people can just talk

816
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 3: more freely.

817
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,439
Speaker 2: And will this be you talk about a record? Will

818
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: this be on c spin, will there be any report?

819
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: Or this is basically in chambers.

820
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: It's basically in chambers. Basically in chambers for now. But

821
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 3: while that's happening, all of the various committees are holding

822
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 3: hearings on these issues and you know, talking through talking

823
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 3: through them on the record and having legislative hearings and

824
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: putting bills forward.

825
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: Now, the average person can't understand what AI is, even

826
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: though they're using AI every day on their phones, et cetera.

827
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: You know, these committees address a million issues. To what

828
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 2: degree are the individuals up to speed on some of

829
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 2: these issues.

830
00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 3: It would surprise you, I think how knowledge jible some

831
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 3: members can become. Uh And I think it would also

832
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 3: surprise you at you know, how little knowledge some people have.

833
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:18,359
Speaker 3: The really great thing about working in Congress is it's

834
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 3: really easy to get information. There are a lot of

835
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 3: people that want to help you understand. We've got the

836
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 3: Congressional Research Service there staff, You've got sort of legislative

837
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: counsel to advise you on how bills are going to

838
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: be written. So anyone that wants to learn can learn

839
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 3: a lot of really smart people working on these things,

840
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: and that the hearings are really there to, you know,

841
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 3: to help you learn. And I think, frankly, that's why

842
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 3: they're doing some of this is, as you said in Chambers,

843
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 3: because these issues are novel, they're complex. People want the

844
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 3: opportunity to, you know, like ask what might be perceived

845
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 3: as a stupid question.

846
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,960
Speaker 2: Let's go back to antitrust for a minute. You have

847
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:02,879
Speaker 2: the DOJ, and there's doing Live Nation. You have Lena Kahan,

848
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 2: and you have the Congress. How do those responsibilities to

849
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 2: divide up into what degree do they overlap?

850
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 3: So put it simply, Congress writes the laws and then

851
00:54:16,120 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 3: Lena and Jonathan enforced the laws. You've got Lena Khanna,

852
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 3: you noted at the FTC, which is a commission of

853
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 3: five people currently controlled by by Lena, who used to

854
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 3: work at Before she was there, she worked at the

855
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee, and they've got a big piece of anti

856
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:42,319
Speaker 3: trust and they've got a lot of other responsibilities at

857
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,799
Speaker 3: the FTC also, and then you have the DOJ, which

858
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 3: is run by the DOJ Anti Trust Division, which is

859
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:53,320
Speaker 3: run by Jonathan Canter and just doing anti trust.

860
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,240
Speaker 2: So how'd you get this job?

861
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 3: How do I get that? You know, Bob? I came

862
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 3: to Capitol Hill in two thousand and eleven and I thought,

863
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 3: you know, I like DC, I like policy work. It's

864
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:16,839
Speaker 3: important to understand Capitol Hill. I'll stay here for one

865
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,400
Speaker 3: year and then go do something else. And you know,

866
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 3: almost fourteen years later, I'm still here, still kicking around.

867
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 3: It's been a lot of fun. It's been a lot

868
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:28,399
Speaker 3: of fun.

869
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: Well, let's go back to the beginning. Where you're from.

870
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: From Pittsburgh, outside of Pittsburgh, Cranberry Township.

871
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: Okay, And what your parents do for a living?

872
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 3: My parents do. My mother it's like a sales rep.

873
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 3: And my father was an engineer, got civil engineer, doing

874
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 3: energy stuff.

875
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,799
Speaker 2: And how many kids in the family, just.

876
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 3: Me and my brother.

877
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: What's your brother up to?

878
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 3: My brother lives out there in LA with you. He's

879
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 3: he's doing like the communications work for a hospital or something.

880
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 2: Okay, did you say with the yalies? Who'd you say?

881
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 3: No? With a hospital?

882
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 2: With a hospital? Okay?

883
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 3: Communications were with a hospital. Sorry. And you go to

884
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 3: college where I go to George Mason down here?

885
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: Any particular reason you go to George Mason.

886
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. I was on the debate team at George Mason.

887
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 3: They had a great debate program, and so that was

888
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: kind of what drove me down there. I wanted to

889
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 3: be in DC, so everything kind of lined up. It

890
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: was a great experience.

891
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 2: Did you go directly from undergrad to law school?

892
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 3: No? I, like I said, I got this.

893
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:45,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

894
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 3: I got a job on Capitol Hill, thought it was

895
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 3: not going to be awesome, and that I'd go to

896
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 3: law school right afterward. I was on Capitol Hill for

897
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 3: about four years, realized I wasn't going to leave, and

898
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 3: made the decision to go to law school at night,

899
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 3: also at George Mason while working on the hill.

900
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So you graduated from college what year.

901
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,280
Speaker 3: Two thousand and four or two thousand and eight? Sorry,

902
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 3: got there in four graduated in o eight.

903
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 2: How long did it take you to go to law

904
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: school at night?

905
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 3: About four years.

906
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 2: It's a lot of work, okay. So what happens when

907
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 2: you start working on Capitol Hill and it evolves into

908
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 2: where you are now, what's your first job? And then

909
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: where do you go from there? Sure?

910
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: So I got there in twenty and eleven and I

911
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 3: worked for Dary Lisa, who's now the IP Subcommittee chair

912
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 3: in like a totally different role at the he was

913
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 3: at the Oversight Committee at the time. I got to

914
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 3: know him pretty well. In twenty fourteen, he asked me

915
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 3: to come be his life legislative director, so I sort

916
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 3: of managed his whole legislative shop while he was the

917
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 3: chair of the IP Subcommittee and then Judi Charry Committee

918
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 3: after that.

919
00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: Okay, let's be a little more granular. What's your very

920
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 2: first job and how do you get it?

921
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 3: Very first job on Capitol Hill was as a professional

922
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 3: staff member on the Oversight Committee, which at the time

923
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 3: was chaired by mister Isaa.

924
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 2: How do you get a job like that?

925
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:35,720
Speaker 3: You know, it's how you get a job on Capitol

926
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,720
Speaker 3: Hill is a funny thing. You got to be in

927
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:42,080
Speaker 3: the right place at the right time. Congress had just

928
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 3: changed and the twenty ten cycle. I knew some people

929
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 3: from George Mason that were there and sort of expressed

930
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,439
Speaker 3: some interest and potentially going to Capitol Hill, like I said,

931
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 3: to get the experience, got an interview, and to get

932
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 3: the job. And the thing about these changes is like

933
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 3: you could have to hire twenty thirty forty people within

934
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 3: a couple of months to staff up and so right place,

935
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 3: right time, that really really makes a difference.

936
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: So what did you actually do when you started? What

937
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 2: did I do? So?

938
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,720
Speaker 3: This was it was the Oversight Committee. So at that

939
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 3: time there was a lot of like oversight of the

940
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 3: GM bailout and of the tart program and of the

941
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 3: stimulus program and where's the money going, how's it being spent?

942
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 3: Asking questions of people. It was like a lot of

943
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,760
Speaker 3: a lot of that stuff, less like policy work.

944
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: Okay, what were you doing?

945
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 3: I was doing that. I was you know, like writing

946
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 3: letters to the you know, companies that got bailout money.

947
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 3: I was talking to members about what we found in

948
00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 3: the documents that we got from these company he is

949
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:06,680
Speaker 3: about the government funds they received it. A lot of

950
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 3: writing letters and sort of you know, talking talking to

951
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 3: people about how they were like waste for out and abuse.

952
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 4: Basically, how do you become so tight with ISA from working?

953
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 3: I didn't know him at all. When I uh took

954
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 3: the job at the at the Oversight Committee, didn't didn't

955
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 3: know him hardly at all. It was probably a year

956
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 3: or you know, it was probably a year or so

957
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 3: before he even knew my name. But over the years

958
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 3: we've become, you know, very close. He gave the blessing

959
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 3: at my wedding last year. He's I consider him a

960
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 3: good friend.

961
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 2: Okay, Isa happens to be a Republican. Does that have

962
01:00:59,560 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 2: anything to do with you getting the job or you

963
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 2: just working in this committee and he gets a takes

964
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 2: a liking to you.

965
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 3: I'm working in this committee. He takes a liking to

966
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 3: me and is working for the majority controlled by Republicans.

967
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 3: That's right.

968
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: I used to make his money in Carl Alarms. Does

969
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 2: he ever talk about that?

970
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 3: He does talk about that Bob He you know, he's

971
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 3: the voice of the viper Carl Alarm, the like step

972
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 3: away from the car protected by Viper, that's his voice.

973
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 3: He had. I think he's got thirty seven patents or something.

974
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 3: He like, he's a really really smart guy that knows

975
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 3: intellectual property. He was actually, I think for a while

976
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,840
Speaker 3: involved in a copyright lawsuit against Shack because Shack had

977
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 3: used part of the protected by viper bit in a song,

978
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 3: and so yeah, that's that's what story loves itself.

979
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, let's go back. You're working, you become

980
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: tight with Isa, and he gives you what job and

981
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:13,320
Speaker 2: what are the responsibilities there?

982
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 3: I go to his office to be his legislative director.

983
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:24,480
Speaker 3: So on Capitol Hill, basically you either worked for a member,

984
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 3: and a member personal office has got like about twelve

985
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 3: staffers in it, you know, a chief of staff, a

986
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 3: legislative director, other people working on specific issues, or or

987
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 3: you work for a committee where you're sort of more

988
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 3: of a subject matter expert. So I go to IS's

989
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 3: personal office to be his legislative director, basically oversee the

990
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 3: legislative portfolio. It was during this time we worked on

991
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 3: the Music Modernization Act. He wrote the Classics Act, which

992
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 3: was a part of the Music Modernization Act, which basically

993
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 3: worked to present or protect rather pre seventy two sound recordings.

994
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 3: This was a you know, legacy issue that had been

995
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:07,320
Speaker 3: around for a while.

996
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 2: You say he wrote who actually wrote it?

997
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 3: Well, I guess I wrote it in the sense that, yeah,

998
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 3: he had long wanted to take care of this issue.

999
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 3: There's a lot of music from the fifties and sixties.

1000
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 3: He really likes you'd hear from these people. He wanted

1001
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 3: to solve this issue for them. Sort of directed me

1002
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 3: to find a solution. I talked to a bunch of people,

1003
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:39,920
Speaker 3: you know, and concluding this, you know, people in the

1004
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 3: music community, music distributors, and try and find a way

1005
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 3: to write the bill the best way that we can.

1006
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 3: You talk with led council about you know, what part

1007
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 3: of chapter seventeen this belongs in, and how you write

1008
01:03:58,000 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: the thing. So the course are going to interpret it

1009
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 3: the right way?

1010
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 2: Okay, Daryl comes to you, says, I want to address

1011
01:04:04,240 --> 01:04:07,160
Speaker 2: this issue. How long do you come back with a

1012
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 2: piece of writing.

1013
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 3: He was one of the things the next day. But

1014
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 3: it probably you know, it depends on the complexity of

1015
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 3: the issue. In that case, I mean, it took weeks

1016
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 3: months of talking talking to folks about the right way

1017
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 3: to do this.

1018
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So you gather all your information, you write it.

1019
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 2: What literally happens next.

1020
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:37,479
Speaker 3: You write it, give it to him. He signs the bill,

1021
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 3: He walks it over to what we'd call the hopper,

1022
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 3: you know, in the house. You put the bill in

1023
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 3: the hopper, so that it's filed, it'll get an HR

1024
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 3: number whatever it was, you know, HR thirteen fifty nine,

1025
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,440
Speaker 3: and it's just the you know number of it's the

1026
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:59,440
Speaker 3: last bill introduced at that point in the Congress is

1027
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 3: the number on the bill, and then it's sitting there

1028
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 3: and everyone knows it's been introduced. What you do then,

1029
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 3: or you might do some of this before you file it,

1030
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 3: is you basically try and get other members of Congress

1031
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:19,640
Speaker 3: to co sponsor your bill. So, yeah, go to other

1032
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 3: people that you think might be into this issue and

1033
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 3: you kind of pitch them on it to build up

1034
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 3: co sponsors. And that's a really important part of the

1035
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 3: process because if you have other members basically saying I'm

1036
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 3: totally on board with this, it gives you know, the

1037
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 3: speaker and leadership confidence that this thing has support. You know, generally,

1038
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 3: the more co sponsors the better. If you want to

1039
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:47,200
Speaker 3: be an original co sponsor, you would sign on, you know,

1040
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 3: before before the bill is introduced, which basically signifies you know,

1041
01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 3: you had some role in creating the bill or coming

1042
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:54,880
Speaker 3: up with the idea.

1043
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 2: Okay, when you're working with ISA and yours legislative director,

1044
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,880
Speaker 2: how many people in the office are in the legislative area.

1045
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 3: How many people. There are probably five people under me

1046
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 3: in that office, and sort of divided up by issue area.

1047
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 3: You know, someone might have like energy and environment and healthcare,

1048
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 3: and someone else might have, you know, taxes and veterans affairs,

1049
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 3: and you know, any manner everything. I mean, all of

1050
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 3: the business before the House, which is all of the

1051
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 3: business of the American public, is really that exists in

1052
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 3: every congressional office because at some point you're gonna have

1053
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: to vote on some bill related to that.

1054
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 2: Okay, So what was your next job after that?

1055
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 3: So back to so is a rich hires And then

1056
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 3: for me, it was where basically where I'm at now.

1057
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:04,120
Speaker 2: But didn't Isa lose an election and then come back.

1058
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 3: He he's very very sensitive about this, Bob. He did

1059
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:15,200
Speaker 3: not lose an election. He retired near the end of

1060
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen.

1061
01:07:17,960 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 2: Okay, then let's just accept the language not important to me.

1062
01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:26,000
Speaker 2: If he is out of Congress, Andy comes back to

1063
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 2: what degreed does he lose or regain his seniority and positions?

1064
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 3: That's a great question. You keep your seniority, So even

1065
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 3: if you left ten years ago, but before then you'd

1066
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 3: spent ten years on the Judiciary Committee. You've got more

1067
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 3: seniority than anyone with less than ten years of seniority

1068
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 3: on Judiciary Committee. He's sort of come back.

1069
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 2: So let's assume let's say I'm out of office and

1070
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 2: I have ten years and I come back. Am I

1071
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 2: immediately able to get on the Judicial your committee? Or

1072
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 2: might they say no?

1073
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:05,840
Speaker 3: They could say no, but it's not likely they're almost

1074
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,919
Speaker 3: certainly going to put you back, especially with that level

1075
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:12,040
Speaker 3: of seniority. There's a deference there. They might even, you know,

1076
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 3: if they had to, might like kick a freshman off

1077
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 3: the committee.

1078
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so Isa is out of d C. Tell me

1079
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:21,559
Speaker 2: how you transition into the next job.

1080
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 3: I say, is out of d C. I was trying

1081
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:35,800
Speaker 3: to figure out what to do and got a call

1082
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 3: from now Chairman Jim Jordan who basically said, hey, I,

1083
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 3: you know, come work for me. Could you could use

1084
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 3: your help? And ultimately I said yes.

1085
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:51,879
Speaker 2: How did Jim Jordan know who you were.

1086
01:08:53,000 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 3: From being around the committee, being around Capitol Hill?

1087
01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:58,760
Speaker 2: So when he comes to ask you to come work

1088
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,799
Speaker 2: for you, what year and what is that job?

1089
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:09,400
Speaker 3: That job was? This is the end of twenty eighteen,

1090
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 3: and I hadn't made a decision I think it was

1091
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:18,160
Speaker 3: December of twenty eighteen. You know, I said, was leaving

1092
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:20,240
Speaker 3: at the end of so I would have been out

1093
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:27,240
Speaker 3: of a job in a matter of weeks and that

1094
01:09:27,240 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 3: that's kind of that's when he called, and that's when

1095
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 3: I said, yes, he basically tells it. There's some of

1096
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 3: this gets strangely like it gets a little personal, but

1097
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 3: he basically said, hey. I said, hey, I like music stuff,

1098
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 3: I like eyepiece stuff, you know, I like a lot

1099
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:46,840
Speaker 3: of things that are going on. He said, come work

1100
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 3: for me. You can do that stuff, you know, kind

1101
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 3: of whatever, you know, whatever you want to do. At

1102
01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 3: that point he was he was cool if I'm yeah.

1103
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:01,320
Speaker 3: At the time, I had a lot of friends working

1104
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 3: there for him. My father was really sick and I

1105
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:14,920
Speaker 3: knew Chairman Jordan pretty well, and he was kind of like, hey,

1106
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:20,479
Speaker 3: that like, come work here, the accommodating of everything going

1107
01:10:20,520 --> 01:10:24,400
Speaker 3: on in your life. And so that was kind of

1108
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 3: where the decision came from.

1109
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 2: What happened with your father's illness.

1110
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:32,280
Speaker 3: Well, he passed away from cancer that in like the

1111
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 3: beginning of twenty twenty.

1112
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 2: During just wow heavy losing a p It.

1113
01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 3: Was, yeah, obviously not ideal, but you know, very sad,

1114
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 3: but it happened in January of twenty twenty, so I

1115
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:49,880
Speaker 3: think it was a blessing that it sort of all

1116
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 3: happened pre COVID so we didn't have to like deal

1117
01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 3: with the like that whole situation.

1118
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 2: Okay, your father passes. How does your situation evolve at

1119
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 2: the Judicial Committee?

1120
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 3: It it, I mean, largely stays the same. I mean

1121
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 3: I really love these issues at that point, I mean

1122
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 3: it was it's the job I have. Now I have,

1123
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 3: you know, no idea how long I'll keep doing this,

1124
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,720
Speaker 3: but for now it's awesome. I mean you're right in

1125
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 3: the middle of everything. You get to interact with just

1126
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 3: about everybody and learn cool stuff. I think you really

1127
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:37,280
Speaker 3: get to have an opportunity to have have an impact

1128
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:41,200
Speaker 3: on on the legislative process on where things go.

1129
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,880
Speaker 2: Okay, you're the head guy. Now when Jim Jordan hires you,

1130
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 2: does he hire you as the head guy?

1131
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 3: Is it like the one of there's like the policy guy. Yeah?

1132
01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 2: Okay, So how long was your predecessor in this role?

1133
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 3: So before Jordan was chaired the committee? Now there was

1134
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 3: chair of the committee, and I think for quite some time,

1135
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 3: like I mean, you know, ten to fifteen years.

1136
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 2: So let's just assume for the sake of discussion, Jim

1137
01:12:22,360 --> 01:12:26,200
Speaker 2: Jordan continues to chair this committee. At what point would

1138
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:27,640
Speaker 2: you pull the ripcord?

1139
01:12:29,800 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 3: That's a question I get almost every day. I have

1140
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 3: no idea. I don't really make plans. You know that

1141
01:12:38,360 --> 01:12:41,599
Speaker 3: this isn't forever. I enjoy every day I have this job.

1142
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 3: I think it's great. Most people don't stay on the

1143
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:49,200
Speaker 3: hill as long as I have, but the average tenures

1144
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 3: something like three four years. Most people, believe it or not,

1145
01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 3: are much younger than me. But for now, I'm not

1146
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 3: to be here. I don't have I don't have plans

1147
01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:02,200
Speaker 3: to leave.

1148
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 2: Okay, So theoretically, could there be a move, whether it

1149
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:10,559
Speaker 2: be you or someone in the same role, from the

1150
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 2: Judiciary Committee policy person to another job in Congress, Senate,

1151
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 2: the government somewhere. Does it ever work that way? Yeah?

1152
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:23,600
Speaker 3: Well, like Lena Lena Cone you mentioned he was a

1153
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 3: Judiciary Committee and now running the Federal Trade Commission. People move,

1154
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 3: move around all the time.

1155
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,280
Speaker 2: And how come people only tend to last for three

1156
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 2: or four years.

1157
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 3: Uh, it's a lot of hours. It's not easy work.

1158
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 3: I personally, I like the pace. I like being busy,

1159
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 3: but I mean you have weeks where you're working. You know,

1160
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 3: it could be eighteen hours a day, and then the

1161
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 3: next week it's much slower and much calmer because the

1162
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:57,600
Speaker 3: members of Congress will leave town. I personally really like

1163
01:13:57,720 --> 01:13:59,760
Speaker 3: that pace. The ebb and flow is fun for me.

1164
01:14:00,240 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 3: It's not for everyone. I think a lot of people

1165
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 3: want to leave and make more money the hill notoriously

1166
01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: doesn't you know you're not going to get rich doing this.

1167
01:14:10,600 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 2: Do you have the kind of job? Or people in

1168
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:16,840
Speaker 2: Washington but work peripheral to the government are recruiting you

1169
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:18,760
Speaker 2: and say come work to the other sign.

1170
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 3: Over the years, sure people have made overtures about like, oh,

1171
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:26,719
Speaker 3: it'd be great if you came and worked here or there.

1172
01:14:27,960 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 3: You know, nothing has struck my fancy, like I said,

1173
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,439
Speaker 3: and I'm really happy where I am.

1174
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 2: Okay, And how much of your work is supervisory or

1175
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 2: work you're doing independently.

1176
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 3: I would say I bet seventy five percent of it

1177
01:14:50,360 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 3: is supervisory sort of talking to people about what they're doing,

1178
01:14:55,479 --> 01:15:01,760
Speaker 3: reviewing their work, guiding them, giving advice, giving counseled. It's

1179
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 3: a lot of that.

1180
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 2: Okay, everybody on the Judiciary Committee know you yes, if

1181
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:12,679
Speaker 2: there are four hundred and thirty five members of Congress.

1182
01:15:12,680 --> 01:15:22,960
Speaker 2: How many of them might know you.

1183
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:20,679
Speaker 3: More than fifty and less than four hundred.

1184
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 2: Would Joe Biden possibly know who you are or whoever's

1185
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 2: president at that moment? Uh?

1186
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:30,600
Speaker 3: Definitely not, definitely not.

1187
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 2: Is there an equivalent in the Senate? And what do

1188
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 2: we do interact with that person here?

1189
01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,880
Speaker 3: We interact with the Senate quite You kind of have

1190
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 3: to to make sure you're on the same page. Would

1191
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,360
Speaker 3: Joe Biden know that person? The answers almost definitely know,

1192
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,000
Speaker 3: unless there's something I don't know.

1193
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,759
Speaker 2: Okay, is it the kind of job like with Jeffrey

1194
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,439
Speaker 2: Katzenberg when he was at Disney, If you don't come

1195
01:15:57,479 --> 01:16:00,440
Speaker 2: in on Saturday, don't even think about coming in on.

1196
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:05,800
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I follow you well, if you don't

1197
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:07,560
Speaker 3: come in on Saturday, Okay.

1198
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:09,559
Speaker 2: What it means? Is it a seven day a week job?

1199
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, definitely definitely. It could be a three am

1200
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:18,800
Speaker 3: on Sunday job. Yeah, you are. You're always on call?

1201
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 2: And how does one maintain a relationship with that kind

1202
01:16:22,840 --> 01:16:23,440
Speaker 2: of schedule.

1203
01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:30,120
Speaker 3: I have a very wonderful and understanding wife who's patient.

1204
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:32,960
Speaker 3: She likes to say to your point, she says he's

1205
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,559
Speaker 3: always working and never working. I think because I enjoy

1206
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 3: the work, you know what, I'm always doing it and

1207
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:43,559
Speaker 3: kind of at this point, I've seen enough of the

1208
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 3: issues that I could. It's never really that taxing to

1209
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 3: sort of go to work and take care of something

1210
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 3: as it comes up.

1211
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:54,640
Speaker 2: And are your friends civilians are people in the business,

1212
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:55,720
Speaker 2: so to speak.

1213
01:16:57,080 --> 01:16:59,080
Speaker 3: Mixture of both. I mean, you don't work somewhere for

1214
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:02,960
Speaker 3: fourteen years and not develop some friendships there. But I've

1215
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:05,639
Speaker 3: got I've got a good number of civilian friends.

1216
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 2: Also. Okay, we live in an era where there's never

1217
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 2: been less respect for institutions. It's not only Congress, it's

1218
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:16,760
Speaker 2: the government at large, it's attorneys. We could go on.

1219
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 2: What would you tell in response to people who say, oh,

1220
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 2: you know, uh, Congress is a body that is locked up,

1221
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 2: doesn't achieve anything, and roll their eyes.

1222
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,720
Speaker 3: It is pretty locked up, right. I don't want to

1223
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:37,559
Speaker 3: want to be cynical here. I mean it's locked up.

1224
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:39,799
Speaker 3: It's hard to get things done. I think the founders

1225
01:17:39,840 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 3: wanted it to be hard to get things done right

1226
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 3: changing make you know, if changing the law were easy,

1227
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,160
Speaker 3: I think that would be a that would be a problem.

1228
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:53,680
Speaker 3: You know, and there I would say most of what

1229
01:17:53,760 --> 01:17:58,640
Speaker 3: you see is probably the worst of it all, you know,

1230
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 3: but what cable news shares and what you're seeing on

1231
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:07,840
Speaker 3: Twitter from clips is like one percent of what's happening

1232
01:18:07,960 --> 01:18:12,960
Speaker 3: on Capitol Hill. The most of what's happening is good

1233
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,880
Speaker 3: people trying to do the right thing for their constituents.

1234
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: Obviously members are elected, but how important are relationships in

1235
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 2: terms of getting ahead? You know, like in the entertainment business,

1236
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,599
Speaker 2: you don't know anybody, you can't even start. Is it

1237
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:27,519
Speaker 2: the same in DC?

1238
01:18:28,680 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1239
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:30,360
Speaker 2: I think it is.

1240
01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:33,599
Speaker 3: You know, Reagan famously said DC's Hollywood for ugly people.

1241
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 3: It's it's the same thing. It's it's I mean, we

1242
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 3: are nothing except for the decisions that we make. Right.

1243
01:18:42,200 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 3: This is just a job where people are everything. You

1244
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:47,599
Speaker 3: need other people to get anything done.

1245
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 2: And what issues might you see coming down the pike

1246
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:54,080
Speaker 2: in the ip Era area.

1247
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 3: It's really hard to see past ip I mean for

1248
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:03,599
Speaker 3: past Ai that that is the big thing that's happening

1249
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:10,920
Speaker 3: right now. I don't know what happens after this. There

1250
01:19:11,080 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 3: is the people have talked about some tweaks to the

1251
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:20,400
Speaker 3: Music Modernization Act, but that's kind of the that's not

1252
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:22,360
Speaker 3: the kind of thing you're talking about though, in terms

1253
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 3: of big issues, it's it's really it's it's AI.

1254
01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,920
Speaker 2: And what is the breadth of what might be addressed

1255
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:33,120
Speaker 2: legislatively on AI?

1256
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 3: So you know, when it comes to like economy wide

1257
01:19:42,120 --> 01:19:48,799
Speaker 3: AI that you're talking about, everything from like a GAO

1258
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 3: study on understanding AI might get passed by Congress to

1259
01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:59,680
Speaker 3: like full scaled, robust regulatory regime. I think that there

1260
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,920
Speaker 3: is a a growing consensus that like it is premature

1261
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:08,719
Speaker 3: to sort of regulate AI right now, that just given

1262
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 3: that this is a worldwide phenomenon, we don't want to

1263
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,240
Speaker 3: do anything to sort of hold back the United States

1264
01:20:13,479 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 3: that we don't know enough yet to jump to those

1265
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:23,120
Speaker 3: kind of conclusions. In the music space, in particular, the

1266
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 3: conversations revolving around protecting you know, name, image and likeness,

1267
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:33,520
Speaker 3: which is not really a copyright question. It's a trademark

1268
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,160
Speaker 3: question more than anything else.

1269
01:20:36,200 --> 01:20:37,320
Speaker 2: And sort of.

1270
01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:40,599
Speaker 3: That's generally what's happening.

1271
01:20:41,560 --> 01:20:44,160
Speaker 2: So what would you tell to someone who wanted to

1272
01:20:44,200 --> 01:20:45,840
Speaker 2: work on Capitol Hill?

1273
01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:51,439
Speaker 3: Would they do it? And most people that want to

1274
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 3: do it this might surprise you and your listeners to hear,

1275
01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:58,200
Speaker 3: but over the years, I've met a lot of people

1276
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:00,519
Speaker 3: that are like, I'd love to work on cap Hill

1277
01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 3: and most of them do you know, if if it's

1278
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 3: something you want bad enough and you have coffee with

1279
01:21:06,200 --> 01:21:11,080
Speaker 3: enough people, the churned people leaving people coming is so

1280
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 3: great that like you'll find something to do.

1281
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,160
Speaker 2: And to what degree does being an attorney help you?

1282
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,240
Speaker 3: It's complicated a lot of people. I would say if

1283
01:21:22,240 --> 01:21:24,240
Speaker 3: you were to ask, like, what's the normal path on

1284
01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 3: Capitol Hill? Uh, people are interns and then they are

1285
01:21:29,200 --> 01:21:33,840
Speaker 3: like staff assistants, and then legislative correspondence that a legislative assistant,

1286
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 3: then maybe a legislative director. Then maybe they'll go to committee.

1287
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 3: It's sort of this process of you know, learning learning

1288
01:21:41,280 --> 01:21:43,479
Speaker 3: the rope. There's nowhere to learn it unless you're there.

1289
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:47,479
Speaker 3: If you're an attorney, it's probably harder to find a

1290
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 3: job on Capitol Hill because you probably want to go

1291
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,719
Speaker 3: work at a committee. Those jobs are a little harder

1292
01:21:52,760 --> 01:21:57,320
Speaker 3: to get. But certainly it helps if you if you have,

1293
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:01,400
Speaker 3: if you have your law degree to do the work.

1294
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:03,320
Speaker 3: But I'm not sure it gives you like an advantage

1295
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:04,479
Speaker 3: in getting up there.

1296
01:22:05,479 --> 01:22:08,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so what would you tell to someone who has

1297
01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:11,280
Speaker 2: an issue that they would like a legislative solution to.

1298
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:16,640
Speaker 2: I'm somewhere, I'm in an industry, I see a problem.

1299
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:20,160
Speaker 2: What would be my best step moving forward to ultimately

1300
01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:24,000
Speaker 2: get my case heard by Congress and hopefully get some

1301
01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 2: action taken.

1302
01:22:27,360 --> 01:22:33,880
Speaker 3: I would tell that person to call me, but I

1303
01:22:33,880 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 3: would say, if you contact your representative's office, they're going

1304
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:45,000
Speaker 3: to take the meeting. You'd be astounded at the number

1305
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:48,320
Speaker 3: of letters offices reply to and the number of meetings

1306
01:22:48,320 --> 01:22:50,240
Speaker 3: people take. If you ask for a meeting and you

1307
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,720
Speaker 3: don't get a reply, ask again and ask them who

1308
01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 3: else you should talk to. You know, if you are

1309
01:22:58,040 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 3: a sophisticated, you know company that's having an issue, you

1310
01:23:03,400 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 3: probably are going to want to hire a law firm

1311
01:23:05,360 --> 01:23:09,200
Speaker 3: that just knows how Capitol Hill works. You know, they'll

1312
01:23:09,280 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 3: kind of direct you in the right, right right areas like, oh,

1313
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,560
Speaker 3: don't go to that person you know that's a Democrat

1314
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:17,640
Speaker 3: that will never agree with you, or don't go to

1315
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:22,519
Speaker 3: that person they're not on any relevant committees, or you know,

1316
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:25,479
Speaker 3: go to go to this person. Ideally, you probably want

1317
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:28,320
Speaker 3: to get a meeting with the you know, chair of

1318
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 3: the relevant subcommittee or committee and see if they'll hear

1319
01:23:33,080 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 3: you out.

1320
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:37,479
Speaker 2: And is being a pest a good thing or a

1321
01:23:37,520 --> 01:23:38,040
Speaker 2: bad thing?

1322
01:23:39,880 --> 01:23:42,240
Speaker 3: It can be both. I think it depends what kind

1323
01:23:42,280 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 3: of a pest you are. You know, the people that

1324
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 3: send like all caps emails every week. Uh, that's not

1325
01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 3: a good strategy. Uh, you know, but people that are like, Hey,

1326
01:23:55,560 --> 01:23:58,000
Speaker 3: I'm a constituent, I've got this issue, can you help

1327
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 3: me out. If you don't get a reply, like, you're

1328
01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:02,439
Speaker 3: going to make the person who's reading that email feel

1329
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:04,519
Speaker 3: guilty they didn't reply to you, and they're probably going

1330
01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 3: to get back to you.

1331
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:10,000
Speaker 2: Okay, Tyler, thanks for taking the time with my audience

1332
01:24:10,040 --> 01:24:14,040
Speaker 2: and illuminating what's going on in DC and inside the

1333
01:24:14,080 --> 01:24:16,040
Speaker 2: Congress and the Judiciary Committee.

1334
01:24:16,080 --> 01:24:18,800
Speaker 3: Hey, Bob, my pleasure. I love the showgir to.

1335
01:24:18,800 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 2: Be with you until next time. This is Bob left

1336
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:22,840
Speaker 2: six