WEBVTT - Do We Need More Slavery Movies? 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.520 Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:05.600 into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:09.040 connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.559 been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.240 if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.800 to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:22.239 Now time for the episode on Theme is a production 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:40.560 of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. Before we start in 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.239 the show, a word of caution. Please be advised that 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:46.840 some sensitive topics come up in today's episode around slavery 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:52.879 and violence, so please take caution when listening to this episode. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.360 Under ordinary circumstances, as a traveler, I should have been 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.640 glad to see the tavern, which was near the milestone, 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.320 but as the case stood with me, I deemed it 0:01:03.360 --> 0:01:06.080 a dangerous place to pass, much less to stop at. 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:09.640 I was therefore passing it as quietly and as rapidly 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.800 as possible, when from the lot just opposite the house 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:17.280 or signpost, I heard a coarse, stern voice cry hello. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.040 I turned my face to the left the direction from 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:24.360 which the voice came, and observed that it proceeded from 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:28.080 a man who was digging potatoes. I answered him politely, 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:33.240 when the following occurred, Who do you belong to? I 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:38.400 am free, sir. Have you got papers? No, sir, well 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.000 you must stop here. By this time he had got 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:44.360 astride the fence, making his way into the road. I said, 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:47.400 my business is onward, sir, and I do not wish 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.680 to stop. I will see then if you don't stop, 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.320 you black rascal. He was now in the middle of 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.880 the road, making after me in a brisk walk. I 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:57.360 saw that a crisis was at hand. I had no 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.280 weapons of any kind, not even a pocket knife. But 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.920 I asked myself, shall I surrender without a struggle? The 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:09.280 instinctive answer was no. What will you do? Continue to walk? 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:12.680 If he runs after you run, get him as far 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:14.920 from the house as you can, then turn suddenly and 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:17.239 smite him on the knee with a stone that will 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.440 render him at least unable to pursue you. This was 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.800 a desperate scheme, but I could think of no other, 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.520 and my habits as a blacksmith had given my eye 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:29.160 in hand such mechanical skill that I felt quite sure 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:31.040 that if I could only get a stone in my 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:34.160 hand and have time to wield it, I should not 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.120 miss his kneepand he began to breathe short. He was 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.360 evidently vexed because I did not halt, and I felt 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.040 more and more provoked at the idea of being thus 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.880 pursued by a man to whom I had not done 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.800 the least injury. I had just began to glance my 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.440 eye about for a stone to grasp when he made 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.160 a tiger like leap at me. This, of course, brought 0:02:56.200 --> 0:02:59.280 us to running. At this moment he yelled out, Jake Shallster. 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.120 And at the next moment, the door of a small 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:05.400 house standing to the left was opened, and out jumped 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.520 a shoemaker, girded up in his leather apron. With his 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:12.000 knife in hand. He sprang forward and seized me by 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:15.360 the collar, while the other sees my arms behind. I 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:18.280 was now in the grasp of two men, either of 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:21.360 whom were larger body than myself, and one of whom 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:25.880 was armed with a dangerous weapon. I'm Katie and I'm Eves. 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.560 Today's episode do we need more slavery movies? That story 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:34.000 you just heard was one from the life of James W. C. Pennington. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:38.120 His story is fascinating. James was born into slavery and 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.840 Maryland in eighteen oh seven. He escaped in eighteen twenty eight, 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.760 moved to the Northeast, became a minister, and eventually became 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.920 the first Black American to take classes at Yale University. 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.040 That riveting moment that you heard just now is from 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:57.120 his eighteen forty nine autobiography The Fugitive Blacksmith. James is 0:03:57.160 --> 0:03:59.640 on his journey to freedom. He has just run into 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:02.000 a white man who recommends that he stay off the 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.280 road and gives him directions to a safe house. But 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.960 because James loses his way and he can't find a 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.120 good hiding place in the woods, he returns to the road, 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.000 and this gets him caught up. He passes a tavern 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:17.480 and runs into the man that we meet in the excerpt. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.240 That man and a few others capture James. When they 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.960 ask James who he belongs to and where he came from, 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:29.040 James faces a moral dilemma. Should he lie, tell the truth, 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.919 or say nothing at all. Ultimately, the right choice is clear. 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:36.120 Those guys don't care about his life, so telling the 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.799 truth is not worth going back to the Louisiana cotton fields. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.560 Of course, they don't believe him without other evidence, so 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:47.160 they take him to a couple of magistrates to verify 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.840 his status, but the magistrates are not at home. In 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:54.159 the end, James tells his captors a lie that's good 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.680 enough to assuage them for the time being. It probably 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.719 helps that he mentioned smallpox, and none of the folks 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.039 gathered want anything to do with the deadly contagious disease. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:05.600 So did James get away? 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:10.920 No, the saga continues. James's captors have spent their time 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.800 chasing him and walking him around the neighborhood. They absolutely 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.800 cannot let a negro be free if he's supposed to 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:20.599 be in captivity, so they plan to keep him around 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:23.440 for a few months while they sort out the situation. 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.520 So that day, James escapes while a boy who's about 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:30.240 nine years old is keeping watch over him. And it's 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:33.440 a tense scene. It's also obviously a critical point in 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.159 James's story, like it's really life or death. His narrative 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.680 has like all the hallmarks of a captivating drama. It's 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:45.039 full of conflict, spur of the moment decisions, and internal 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.599 moral dilemmas. And if you read the scene I was 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.160 just telling you about, you will definitely want to read more. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.920 And this might be controversial to stay in this day 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.839 and age, but I do think slave narratives deserve more 0:05:56.920 --> 0:06:01.680 screen time, hmm, say more so that I know of. 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:07.120 I don't think anyone has had beef with slavery documentaries 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:12.880 or nonfiction. There are an overwhelming number of slave narratives 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:16.320 told in academic and non academic books, but I think 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:20.400 on a mass American scale, people are typically engaging with 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:25.680 dramatized slavery films and that's where their opposition lies. People 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:30.359 are sick of fictional and fictionalized stories about slavery, and 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:35.200 the arguments are plentiful. Every time another slave movie comes out, 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.680 it's you know, trauma porn. Also, a lot of the 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.400 slavery movies are made in Hollywood, where most of the writers', 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:46.359 producers and executive producers are white, so you know, white 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:50.159 folks are grossly, doubly capitalizing off of our pain. And 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.839 some Black people are just tired of seeing representations of 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:56.599 black people who are struggling in media. They're tired of 0:06:56.640 --> 0:07:01.240 seeing these sob stories with negative drama at every These 0:07:01.279 --> 0:07:05.400 folks will often advocate for more black stories of triumph 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.840 and success or stories where black people are living lavish, 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:13.200 wealthy lives. They say things like we should be looking 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:14.600 forward and not backward. 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:16.760 And you don't agree with that. 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:22.040 Well, I think there are problems. There is that element 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.520 of positivity washing and this kind of desire to uplift 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:30.240 only exceptional Black people. And also time is a flat circle. 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:33.239 It doesn't really do us any favors to divorce ourselves 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.120 from our past and the people who are the reason 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:39.520 for our existence today if we are the descendants of slaves. 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.640 But I think a lot of the points that people 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:47.120 bring up against slavery movies are very valid. A lot 0:07:47.200 --> 0:07:49.400 of them do have a lot of trauma in them 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.000 that are just there for trauma's sake, and a lot 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.800 of them are financial endeavors. They really don't care about 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:58.720 telling those stories. Well. But I think that even though 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.720 slavery movies have their pain points, we need more of them. 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:06.760 There are some slavery movies that have gratuitous violence to 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:12.160 make the institution of slavery seem sufficiently horrible to skeptical 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.640 or ignorant white folks. Often in these kinds of cases, 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:20.120 the storytelling really centers white audiences. But the reality is 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:23.320 that we are under educated in the United States. There 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:26.520 are people of all races who don't know much about 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:30.800 the realities of black history, let alone slavery history, and yes, 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.360 that includes black people. We have so much more to 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.360 learn about our history, and that info can become more 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:42.320 palatable for people when it's presented in dramatized accounts. For 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.840 US Black Americans, I think it can be really easy 0:08:45.960 --> 0:08:48.720 for us not to place emphasis on the history of 0:08:48.840 --> 0:08:52.439 enslavement and our links to it, because public school curriculums 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.880 don't emphasize it, and if it's importance isn't otherwise impressed 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.240 upon us, then it's easy to take for granted. Many 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:04.280 of us who had enslaved ancestors don't know their specific histories, 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.800 and I know that many of us aren't cracking open 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:12.160 an old slave autobiography and settling into our favorite reading 0:09:12.200 --> 0:09:14.920 spot on a Sunday morning. And on top of all 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:18.640 of that, the history of enslaved people has been purposely 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:24.040 buried and erased. Enslaved people were people, though I'd like 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.160 to know their stories. I want to know how they lived, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.400 what they smelled when they woke up in the morning, 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.040 how it felt for them to see the sun shining 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.160 through windows and what their favorite meals were to cook. 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.120 Yeah, I empathize with people who say they're tired of 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:44.840 slavery movies because of the ones we've been given. There 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.720 is a lot of violence, and it does seem like 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.080 it's there just to traumatize us, because that's what they 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:53.640 do oftentimes. What I want to see. I think it 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:55.840 would be really cool to see more depictions of like 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:59.720 the Reconstruction era, because like we'll see depictions of like 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.920 you know, the runaways, but like most people who are 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.160 enslaver are running away, but it was like for that 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.720 brief eight years during the Reconstruction era, like right after 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.040 slavery was ended, there was a lot of stuff going 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.000 good for black people. It didn't last, but I would 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.720 like to see kind of like the end of slavery, 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.800 maybe the Confederate army tried to get to fight for them, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.760 you know, turning on the people in the back of 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.120 the line and shooting the Confederate soldiers and running over 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:29.400 to the un inside and seeing how their life happened 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:31.760 during the Reconstruction era. That's what I would like to see, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.960 And like you said, like the more nuanced stories that 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:38.679 shows what their lives were like what their personalities were, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.079 like their relationships they had with each other, and not 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:42.920 just the brutality. 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:47.160 So I think about it this way sometimes that I 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:51.600 can imagine if people had never been kidnapped from the 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:54.520 African continent and brought to the Caribbean and the shores 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:58.600 of the Americas, Like, would we still be trying to 0:10:59.080 --> 0:11:02.640 erase hundreds of years worth of those stories. All of 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.600 those stories are compelling. There's mystery, there's intrigue. All of 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.480 these people were individuals. They had cool skills, they had 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:13.920 dangerous plans, and they executed them, and they fell in 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.120 love and they deceived their loved ones. All of that 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:21.360 is very interesting, And I just want to think about 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.199 how we can acknowledge how we are hurt by these 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.200 kinds of stories and all that trauma that you were 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:28.200 talking about, and all of the slavery movies that we 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:32.160 do have. It's very real, it's very embodied. They are 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.760 all valid reactions. I am there right there with you, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:40.520 And I also want to ask for more rich, complex 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.640 stories about slaves. Now am I asking for a lot? 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.480 Is the question? Can we really get that? 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.719 In a way, it feels a little counter productive to 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:53.920 ask for fewer slavery movies. We don't want to see 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.880 more stories about black trauma. And I get that, I 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:58.760 don't want to see that either, but the call is 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:02.960 usually in all out moratorium on these movies, like none 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.120 at all, no more cut them. And that feels like, 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:10.320 I don't know, like white people won again, Like they 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:15.040 already have erased our history textbooks in the non fiction space, 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:19.880 so letting them erase this long period of our history 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.160 and wiping out the names and the stories and families 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.959 off the face of the earth again, it's like, I 0:12:27.000 --> 0:12:29.960 don't know, it feels wrong. And like think about Roots, 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.480 the nineteen seventy six novel by Alex Haley. It was 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.400 a bestseller and it was soon turned into a couple 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:38.760 of TV series and it had a real impact, Like 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.319 people was gathered around that TV to watch The Roots 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.200 when it came out, and it really got people of 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:48.360 all races interested in researching their family history, but you know, 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:53.280 particularly black people. A lot of genealogical groups were made 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:56.120 during that time because they wanted to learn more about 0:12:56.160 --> 0:13:00.200 their ancestors who came from Africa and lived on the 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:01.680 plantations in the United States. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.920 Yeah, Roots was maybe the most prominent example of a 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.079 fictional slave narrative that was written by a black person 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:12.400 in the last half century. I mean, Kunta Kitte was 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.640 a household name. I don't know if it still is 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.320 for the kids today, but from this generation standpoint, I 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:22.319 feel like I can confidently say that, and there weren't 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:26.400 other shows like it on television at the time. Since Roots, though, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.680 we have gotten a fair amount of major Hollywood films 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:36.880 about slavery. Are they all good though? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately, 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:41.319 Hollywood prioritizes money and stories that'll get a lot of 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.320 butts in seats. Also, movies can only be so long. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.120 They have to filter through production company standards, audience testing, 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.440 the rating system, all of those kinds of things, and 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.880 Hollywood has a tendency to flatten stories that could be 0:13:55.920 --> 0:14:01.200 really intricate and interesting because of people's in Hollywood and 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.520 because of all of these other moles that they have 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.199 to fit into. I know that there are independent creators 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.559 making films about slavery who really lack a larger platform, 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.280 but they tell beautiful stories. You know, it's always the 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:16.520 case that artists outside the mainstream they take risks and 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:19.400 they step freely. But you know, Hollywood does have a 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.240 white footprint. So speaking of Hollywood, it makes me think 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.480 of Antebellum. So I love Janelle Monnet, but I did 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.840 not love Antebellum, which came out in twenty and twenty 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.720 and it was written and directed by a black filmmaker 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.880 named Gerard Bush and a white filmmaker named Christopher Wrenz. 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:39.280 Now that movie got a lot of heat and hate 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:41.520 when it came out, and I'm not interested in just 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.400 piling on to that, but I do think it's worthwhile 0:14:44.480 --> 0:14:47.800 to mention because it illustrates some of the pitfalls of 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:52.360 movies that include enslaved people. Well, in this case, people 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.240 are not really enslaved. But more on that soon. Here's 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:59.000 a quick summary of the film. Antebellum. Starts on a plantation, 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.200 are cruel and the enslaved people are brutally harmed and killed. 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:08.080 Monette plays Eden, a slave on the plantation, but has 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.880 revealed that in modern times, Money is doctor of Veronica Henley, 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:16.560 a successful sociologist and doctor. And while she's on book tour, 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.440 she's drugged and kidnapped, and she wakes up on the plantation, 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.640 which is actually not a plantation. It turns out to 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.960 be a civil war reenactment park, Monette kills the people 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:32.320 running the park and she escapes. Now, Antebellum isn't exactly 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.840 a slavery movie. It's horror and is not trying to 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.120 depict history accurately, but it does use the cruelty of 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:43.600 the history of slavery to try keyword there to get 0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.400 its point across. So it falls victim to some of 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.600 the tropes that are in slavery movies. The characters are flat, 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.600 including Moname's. The concept of the soul militant savior is 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:57.040 also at play here because Monete's rescue effort is virtually 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:02.560 solo as her collaborators dieviolence is gratuitous and unnecessary, and 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.080 there's one woman who we barely get to know who 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.800 suffers horrendous trauma before she dies by suicide. It seems 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:11.120 like the film's creators like really just want to see 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:13.960 black women suffer. The violence against black people in this 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.880 film is definitely not earned. The white folks are seemingly 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.960 kidnapping the black folks because they want America to go 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:23.120 back to the way it was. It seems like the 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:27.440 creator's intent is to oppose this white supremacist sentiment, but 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.800 the vision isn't executed well, and in the end, it 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:35.280 gives what so many actual historical slavery movies give trauma 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:39.040 for the sake of trauma. I will say that some 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:43.800 people found the premise unbelievable, and that is fair, but 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.680 I don't think it's a completely bad heightened interpretation of 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.400 what's possible in real life, because it's not unbelievable that 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:56.960 like a white supremacist militia group would drug, kidnap whole 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:02.640 hostage and torture black people. It just wouldn't be in 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.240 something like a reenactment part that anyone can access and 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.000 leave at any time, Like this is not an exact 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.280 parallel to reality, but I do think there are parts 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.440 of it that could be reality. 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:18.000 Antabellum gave like they thought they were really being provocative, 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.959 you know, like in that Kanye West sounds like it's provocative. 0:17:21.000 --> 0:17:24.120 It gets the people going, like they thought like, oh, 0:17:24.119 --> 0:17:26.000 people are going to be like whoa and like get 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:30.440 all these awards, but it just kind of like huh, 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:32.679 It's like this is what cinema is. 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.280 And sadly, Antebellum is not an example of how to 0:17:37.320 --> 0:17:40.600 make a good movie about enslaved people. We need fewer 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:45.800 slavery movies that spoonfeed audiences, discussed shock and sympathy. But 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:48.720 I have to say that in general, feeling tired of 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.679 slavery narratives period feels like a bit of a premature reaction. 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.280 And I'm just saying that because slavery movies are actually 0:17:57.359 --> 0:17:58.760 kind of few and far between. 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.000 Yeah, there really aren't that many that got major attention. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.520 There was Django and chand in twenty twelve, Twelve Years 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.320 of Slave in twenty thirteen, Birth of a Nation in 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:13.160 twenty sixteen, Harriet in twenty nineteen, Alice in twenty twenty two, 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.119 and Emancipation also in twenty twenty two. 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.320 The reality is, the film industry isn't flooded with slave movies, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:25.080 so we're not really inundated with slavery related trauma porn. 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.320 It just seems that way because most of the movies 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.719 that we do get revel way too long in the 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.080 gore and the immorality of the whites. They don't spend 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:38.240 much time in the interior worlds of the black people. 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:44.280 It's like this horrible atrocity is just happening to black people. 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:48.840 People are not tired because they are literally too many 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.960 slave movies. They're tired because when they are released, they 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:58.120 do enslaved people's stories no justice. There are literally thousands 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.000 of stories about enslaved people that are compelling enough to 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:05.359 be depicted on screen, and they haven't been. Now, I 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.520 don't think that every person should just love watching slavery films. 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:11.760 That would be wild of me to say. Of course, 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.600 that can still be a matter of personal preference. Even 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:18.280 having better slavery movies might not convince you to turn 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.040 one on, and that's totally fine. But if we are 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:23.760 going to ask for more of them, then we got 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.439 to be specific. If we're going to have more, we 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:31.120 need more well done, meaningful movies about slavery that are 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:32.320 skillfully crafted. 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.440 They shouldn't center white heroes. 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.680 They shouldn't cheaply use the horror and trauma that enslaved 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.879 people endure it to propel the story forward. 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:43.720 They shouldn't cater to white audience looking to be absolved 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:44.560 of their sins. 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.760 They should be sensitive to the humanity of enslaved people 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:53.440 because they were humans. They ate, they crafted, they danced. 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:58.400 We have so many untapped stories about slavery, and as 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:02.240 far as I know, there is no movie about James W. C. Pennington. 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.800 So somebody in your long hand make that and make it well. 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:11.120 Yes, but y'all, I feel like we have to prove 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.560 to you that we're not the only ones who might 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:19.440 want more slavery movies. We're not completely yelling into the void. Okay. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:24.200 We talked to Cheney McKnight of Not Your Mama's History 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:37.800 more after the break. Hi, Cheney, I'm Eve so yeah, 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:39.960 excited to have you here today too. We'll get into 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:43.960 it then. So just tell us your name and then 0:20:44.080 --> 0:20:46.040 however you like to introduce yourself. 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:50.480 My name is Cheney McKnight. I own a company called 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.480 Not Your Mama's History, and we have a YouTube channel. 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:58.960 We also go to sites, primarily sites of the enslavement 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:03.199 and help those sites to tell stories of black folks, 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.639 whether they were enslaved or free through the eighteenth and 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:13.200 nineteenth century. And on my social medias, I just try 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:17.959 and tell as many stories about black folks today and 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:21.080 in the past, and also try to look forward into 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.719 the future and bring us all into a better future. 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.200 So what inspired you to start that work? 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.760 Growing up in Georgia in Atlanta, we would go to 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:35.480 well at school, we would go to trips to plantations, 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:38.840 and especially when I went to a majority white school, 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:44.360 I was just looking around, like the interpretations they were 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:46.439 doing and the stories they were telling. I was like, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:50.960 this really looks like and sounds like bullshit. So even 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:53.359 as a young child, I was like I got a question. 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:55.760 Like whenever the docin was like do you have a question, 0:21:56.000 --> 0:21:58.320 I was the first person to raise my hand and say, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:02.560 I have a lot of questions. And I was very 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:07.160 fortunate that I was raised by people who constantly took 0:22:07.280 --> 0:22:12.560 me to exhibits on black folks throughout history. 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:16.720 So I know you're also into all these historical things 0:22:16.720 --> 0:22:18.439 that you do in real life, but also in the 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.320 fictional world. I know that you're a film fan and 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.680 that you also watch a lot of historical films, and 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.800 some of those historical films are films about slavery and 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:33.879 about enslaved people. So what is your take on whether 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.000 we do not need more slavery films or whether we do. 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:44.320 Oh man, this is such a contentious topic, and for 0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:48.000 a very good reason. I think if we look at 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.679 the history of movies of enslavement, we've gone through phases 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:57.560 where when you're looking at roots, people are trying to 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:06.879 show the whole nitty gritty truth about slavery. Going further back, 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:12.000 it's more like mental shows. So if you're looking at 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.400 Gone with a Win and Mammy's character, it's a caricature 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:21.560 and she is. Her character was not modeled often of 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:26.879 an actual enslaved person, so they weren't looking at primary documents. 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:30.800 They may have looked at some real women as far 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:35.920 as her face, but they were actually looking at mental 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:40.000 shows to build her character out. And then of course 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:46.080 coming into the future through Roots. I think the Roots period, 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:50.080 I understand where we were going because we're coming from 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:54.199 the other side, where they're showing it is lifels so 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:58.320 happy to be slaves and they're just having a good 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.919 old time. And then we're going all the way to 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:05.639 the extreme where every enslane person, on every second of 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:10.280 the day is being whipped. And yes, there was some 0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:15.840 diversity in the experiences of these enslaved people, but there 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:18.919 are these very two extremes that I find both of 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:24.000 them stripped the humanity from people. Especially when we're coming 0:24:24.080 --> 0:24:31.480 up into Amistad. There was a lot of strong storytelling, 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:36.520