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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get

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Speaker 1: into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving

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Speaker 1: connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really

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Speaker 1: been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it

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Speaker 1: if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe

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Speaker 1: to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all.

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Speaker 1: Now time for the episode on Theme is a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. Before we start in

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Speaker 1: the show, a word of caution. Please be advised that

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Speaker 1: some sensitive topics come up in today's episode around slavery

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Speaker 1: and violence, so please take caution when listening to this episode.

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Speaker 1: Under ordinary circumstances, as a traveler, I should have been

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Speaker 1: glad to see the tavern, which was near the milestone,

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Speaker 1: but as the case stood with me, I deemed it

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Speaker 1: a dangerous place to pass, much less to stop at.

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Speaker 1: I was therefore passing it as quietly and as rapidly

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Speaker 1: as possible, when from the lot just opposite the house

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Speaker 1: or signpost, I heard a coarse, stern voice cry hello.

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Speaker 1: I turned my face to the left the direction from

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Speaker 1: which the voice came, and observed that it proceeded from

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Speaker 1: a man who was digging potatoes. I answered him politely,

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Speaker 1: when the following occurred, Who do you belong to? I

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Speaker 1: am free, sir. Have you got papers? No, sir, well

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Speaker 1: you must stop here. By this time he had got

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Speaker 1: astride the fence, making his way into the road. I said,

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Speaker 1: my business is onward, sir, and I do not wish

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Speaker 1: to stop. I will see then if you don't stop,

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Speaker 1: you black rascal. He was now in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the road, making after me in a brisk walk. I

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Speaker 1: saw that a crisis was at hand. I had no

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Speaker 1: weapons of any kind, not even a pocket knife. But

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Speaker 1: I asked myself, shall I surrender without a struggle? The

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Speaker 1: instinctive answer was no. What will you do? Continue to walk?

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Speaker 1: If he runs after you run, get him as far

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Speaker 1: from the house as you can, then turn suddenly and

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Speaker 1: smite him on the knee with a stone that will

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Speaker 1: render him at least unable to pursue you. This was

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Speaker 1: a desperate scheme, but I could think of no other,

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Speaker 1: and my habits as a blacksmith had given my eye

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Speaker 1: in hand such mechanical skill that I felt quite sure

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Speaker 1: that if I could only get a stone in my

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Speaker 1: hand and have time to wield it, I should not

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Speaker 1: miss his kneepand he began to breathe short. He was

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Speaker 1: evidently vexed because I did not halt, and I felt

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Speaker 1: more and more provoked at the idea of being thus

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Speaker 1: pursued by a man to whom I had not done

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Speaker 1: the least injury. I had just began to glance my

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Speaker 1: eye about for a stone to grasp when he made

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Speaker 1: a tiger like leap at me. This, of course, brought

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Speaker 1: us to running. At this moment he yelled out, Jake Shallster.

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Speaker 1: And at the next moment, the door of a small

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Speaker 1: house standing to the left was opened, and out jumped

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Speaker 1: a shoemaker, girded up in his leather apron. With his

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Speaker 1: knife in hand. He sprang forward and seized me by

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Speaker 1: the collar, while the other sees my arms behind. I

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Speaker 1: was now in the grasp of two men, either of

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Speaker 1: whom were larger body than myself, and one of whom

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Speaker 1: was armed with a dangerous weapon. I'm Katie and I'm Eves.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode do we need more slavery movies? That story

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Speaker 1: you just heard was one from the life of James W. C. Pennington.

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Speaker 1: His story is fascinating. James was born into slavery and

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Speaker 1: Maryland in eighteen oh seven. He escaped in eighteen twenty eight,

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Speaker 1: moved to the Northeast, became a minister, and eventually became

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Speaker 1: the first Black American to take classes at Yale University.

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Speaker 1: That riveting moment that you heard just now is from

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Speaker 1: his eighteen forty nine autobiography The Fugitive Blacksmith. James is

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Speaker 1: on his journey to freedom. He has just run into

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Speaker 1: a white man who recommends that he stay off the

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Speaker 1: road and gives him directions to a safe house. But

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Speaker 1: because James loses his way and he can't find a

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Speaker 1: good hiding place in the woods, he returns to the road,

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Speaker 1: and this gets him caught up. He passes a tavern

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Speaker 1: and runs into the man that we meet in the excerpt.

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Speaker 1: That man and a few others capture James. When they

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Speaker 1: ask James who he belongs to and where he came from,

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Speaker 1: James faces a moral dilemma. Should he lie, tell the truth,

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Speaker 1: or say nothing at all. Ultimately, the right choice is clear.

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Speaker 1: Those guys don't care about his life, so telling the

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Speaker 1: truth is not worth going back to the Louisiana cotton fields.

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Speaker 1: Of course, they don't believe him without other evidence, so

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Speaker 1: they take him to a couple of magistrates to verify

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Speaker 1: his status, but the magistrates are not at home. In

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Speaker 1: the end, James tells his captors a lie that's good

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Speaker 1: enough to assuage them for the time being. It probably

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Speaker 1: helps that he mentioned smallpox, and none of the folks

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Speaker 1: gathered want anything to do with the deadly contagious disease.

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Speaker 2: So did James get away?

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Speaker 1: No, the saga continues. James's captors have spent their time

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Speaker 1: chasing him and walking him around the neighborhood. They absolutely

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Speaker 1: cannot let a negro be free if he's supposed to

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Speaker 1: be in captivity, so they plan to keep him around

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Speaker 1: for a few months while they sort out the situation.

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Speaker 1: So that day, James escapes while a boy who's about

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Speaker 1: nine years old is keeping watch over him. And it's

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Speaker 1: a tense scene. It's also obviously a critical point in

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Speaker 1: James's story, like it's really life or death. His narrative

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Speaker 1: has like all the hallmarks of a captivating drama. It's

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Speaker 1: full of conflict, spur of the moment decisions, and internal

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Speaker 1: moral dilemmas. And if you read the scene I was

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Speaker 1: just telling you about, you will definitely want to read more.

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Speaker 1: And this might be controversial to stay in this day

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Speaker 1: and age, but I do think slave narratives deserve more

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Speaker 1: screen time, hmm, say more so that I know of.

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Speaker 1: I don't think anyone has had beef with slavery documentaries

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Speaker 1: or nonfiction. There are an overwhelming number of slave narratives

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Speaker 1: told in academic and non academic books, but I think

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Speaker 1: on a mass American scale, people are typically engaging with

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Speaker 1: dramatized slavery films and that's where their opposition lies. People

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Speaker 1: are sick of fictional and fictionalized stories about slavery, and

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Speaker 1: the arguments are plentiful. Every time another slave movie comes out,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, trauma porn. Also, a lot of the

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Speaker 1: slavery movies are made in Hollywood, where most of the writers',

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Speaker 1: producers and executive producers are white, so you know, white

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Speaker 1: folks are grossly, doubly capitalizing off of our pain. And

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Speaker 1: some Black people are just tired of seeing representations of

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Speaker 1: black people who are struggling in media. They're tired of

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Speaker 1: seeing these sob stories with negative drama at every These

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Speaker 1: folks will often advocate for more black stories of triumph

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Speaker 1: and success or stories where black people are living lavish,

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Speaker 1: wealthy lives. They say things like we should be looking

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Speaker 1: forward and not backward.

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Speaker 2: And you don't agree with that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there are problems. There is that element

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Speaker 1: of positivity washing and this kind of desire to uplift

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Speaker 1: only exceptional Black people. And also time is a flat circle.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't really do us any favors to divorce ourselves

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Speaker 1: from our past and the people who are the reason

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Speaker 1: for our existence today if we are the descendants of slaves.

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Speaker 1: But I think a lot of the points that people

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Speaker 1: bring up against slavery movies are very valid. A lot

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Speaker 1: of them do have a lot of trauma in them

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Speaker 1: that are just there for trauma's sake, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of them are financial endeavors. They really don't care about

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Speaker 1: telling those stories. Well. But I think that even though

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Speaker 1: slavery movies have their pain points, we need more of them.

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Speaker 1: There are some slavery movies that have gratuitous violence to

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Speaker 1: make the institution of slavery seem sufficiently horrible to skeptical

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Speaker 1: or ignorant white folks. Often in these kinds of cases,

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Speaker 1: the storytelling really centers white audiences. But the reality is

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Speaker 1: that we are under educated in the United States. There

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Speaker 1: are people of all races who don't know much about

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Speaker 1: the realities of black history, let alone slavery history, and yes,

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Speaker 1: that includes black people. We have so much more to

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Speaker 1: learn about our history, and that info can become more

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Speaker 1: palatable for people when it's presented in dramatized accounts. For

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Speaker 1: US Black Americans, I think it can be really easy

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Speaker 1: for us not to place emphasis on the history of

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Speaker 1: enslavement and our links to it, because public school curriculums

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Speaker 1: don't emphasize it, and if it's importance isn't otherwise impressed

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Speaker 1: upon us, then it's easy to take for granted. Many

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Speaker 1: of us who had enslaved ancestors don't know their specific histories,

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Speaker 1: and I know that many of us aren't cracking open

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Speaker 1: an old slave autobiography and settling into our favorite reading

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Speaker 1: spot on a Sunday morning. And on top of all

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Speaker 1: of that, the history of enslaved people has been purposely

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Speaker 1: buried and erased. Enslaved people were people, though I'd like

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Speaker 1: to know their stories. I want to know how they lived,

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Speaker 1: what they smelled when they woke up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: how it felt for them to see the sun shining

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Speaker 1: through windows and what their favorite meals were to cook.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I empathize with people who say they're tired of

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Speaker 2: slavery movies because of the ones we've been given. There

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Speaker 2: is a lot of violence, and it does seem like

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Speaker 2: it's there just to traumatize us, because that's what they

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Speaker 2: do oftentimes. What I want to see. I think it

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Speaker 2: would be really cool to see more depictions of like

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Speaker 2: the Reconstruction era, because like we'll see depictions of like

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Speaker 2: you know, the runaways, but like most people who are

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Speaker 2: enslaver are running away, but it was like for that

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Speaker 2: brief eight years during the Reconstruction era, like right after

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Speaker 2: slavery was ended, there was a lot of stuff going

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Speaker 2: good for black people. It didn't last, but I would

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Speaker 2: like to see kind of like the end of slavery,

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Speaker 2: maybe the Confederate army tried to get to fight for them,

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Speaker 2: you know, turning on the people in the back of

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Speaker 2: the line and shooting the Confederate soldiers and running over

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Speaker 2: to the un inside and seeing how their life happened

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Speaker 2: during the Reconstruction era. That's what I would like to see,

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Speaker 2: And like you said, like the more nuanced stories that

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Speaker 2: shows what their lives were like what their personalities were,

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Speaker 2: like their relationships they had with each other, and not

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Speaker 2: just the brutality.

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Speaker 1: So I think about it this way sometimes that I

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Speaker 1: can imagine if people had never been kidnapped from the

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Speaker 1: African continent and brought to the Caribbean and the shores

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Speaker 1: of the Americas, Like, would we still be trying to

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Speaker 1: erase hundreds of years worth of those stories. All of

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Speaker 1: those stories are compelling. There's mystery, there's intrigue. All of

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Speaker 1: these people were individuals. They had cool skills, they had

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Speaker 1: dangerous plans, and they executed them, and they fell in

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Speaker 1: love and they deceived their loved ones. All of that

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Speaker 1: is very interesting, And I just want to think about

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Speaker 1: how we can acknowledge how we are hurt by these

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Speaker 1: kinds of stories and all that trauma that you were

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Speaker 1: talking about, and all of the slavery movies that we

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Speaker 1: do have. It's very real, it's very embodied. They are

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Speaker 1: all valid reactions. I am there right there with you,

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Speaker 1: And I also want to ask for more rich, complex

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Speaker 1: stories about slaves. Now am I asking for a lot?

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Speaker 1: Is the question? Can we really get that?

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Speaker 2: In a way, it feels a little counter productive to

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Speaker 2: ask for fewer slavery movies. We don't want to see

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Speaker 2: more stories about black trauma. And I get that, I

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Speaker 2: don't want to see that either, but the call is

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Speaker 2: usually in all out moratorium on these movies, like none

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Speaker 2: at all, no more cut them. And that feels like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like white people won again, Like they

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Speaker 2: already have erased our history textbooks in the non fiction space,

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Speaker 2: so letting them erase this long period of our history

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Speaker 2: and wiping out the names and the stories and families

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Speaker 2: off the face of the earth again, it's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know, it feels wrong. And like think about Roots,

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventy six novel by Alex Haley. It was

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Speaker 2: a bestseller and it was soon turned into a couple

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Speaker 2: of TV series and it had a real impact, Like

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Speaker 2: people was gathered around that TV to watch The Roots

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Speaker 2: when it came out, and it really got people of

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Speaker 2: all races interested in researching their family history, but you know,

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Speaker 2: particularly black people. A lot of genealogical groups were made

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Speaker 2: during that time because they wanted to learn more about

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Speaker 2: their ancestors who came from Africa and lived on the

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Speaker 2: plantations in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Roots was maybe the most prominent example of a

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Speaker 1: fictional slave narrative that was written by a black person

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Speaker 1: in the last half century. I mean, Kunta Kitte was

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Speaker 1: a household name. I don't know if it still is

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Speaker 1: for the kids today, but from this generation standpoint, I

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Speaker 1: feel like I can confidently say that, and there weren't

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Speaker 1: other shows like it on television at the time. Since Roots, though,

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Speaker 1: we have gotten a fair amount of major Hollywood films

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Speaker 1: about slavery. Are they all good though? No, absolutely not. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: Hollywood prioritizes money and stories that'll get a lot of

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Speaker 1: butts in seats. Also, movies can only be so long.

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Speaker 1: They have to filter through production company standards, audience testing,

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Speaker 1: the rating system, all of those kinds of things, and

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Speaker 1: Hollywood has a tendency to flatten stories that could be

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Speaker 1: really intricate and interesting because of people's in Hollywood and

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Speaker 1: because of all of these other moles that they have

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Speaker 1: to fit into. I know that there are independent creators

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Speaker 1: making films about slavery who really lack a larger platform,

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Speaker 1: but they tell beautiful stories. You know, it's always the

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Speaker 1: case that artists outside the mainstream they take risks and

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Speaker 1: they step freely. But you know, Hollywood does have a

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Speaker 1: white footprint. So speaking of Hollywood, it makes me think

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Speaker 1: of Antebellum. So I love Janelle Monnet, but I did

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Speaker 1: not love Antebellum, which came out in twenty and twenty

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Speaker 1: and it was written and directed by a black filmmaker

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Speaker 1: named Gerard Bush and a white filmmaker named Christopher Wrenz.

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Speaker 1: Now that movie got a lot of heat and hate

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Speaker 1: when it came out, and I'm not interested in just

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Speaker 1: piling on to that, but I do think it's worthwhile

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Speaker 1: to mention because it illustrates some of the pitfalls of

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Speaker 1: movies that include enslaved people. Well, in this case, people

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Speaker 1: are not really enslaved. But more on that soon. Here's

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Speaker 1: a quick summary of the film. Antebellum. Starts on a plantation,

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Speaker 1: are cruel and the enslaved people are brutally harmed and killed.

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Speaker 1: Monette plays Eden, a slave on the plantation, but has

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Speaker 1: revealed that in modern times, Money is doctor of Veronica Henley,

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Speaker 1: a successful sociologist and doctor. And while she's on book tour,

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Speaker 1: she's drugged and kidnapped, and she wakes up on the plantation,

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Speaker 1: which is actually not a plantation. It turns out to

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Speaker 1: be a civil war reenactment park, Monette kills the people

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Speaker 1: running the park and she escapes. Now, Antebellum isn't exactly

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Speaker 1: a slavery movie. It's horror and is not trying to

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Speaker 1: depict history accurately, but it does use the cruelty of

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Speaker 1: the history of slavery to try keyword there to get

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Speaker 1: its point across. So it falls victim to some of

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Speaker 1: the tropes that are in slavery movies. The characters are flat,

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Speaker 1: including Moname's. The concept of the soul militant savior is

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Speaker 1: also at play here because Monete's rescue effort is virtually

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Speaker 1: solo as her collaborators dieviolence is gratuitous and unnecessary, and

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Speaker 1: there's one woman who we barely get to know who

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Speaker 1: suffers horrendous trauma before she dies by suicide. It seems

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Speaker 1: like the film's creators like really just want to see

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Speaker 1: black women suffer. The violence against black people in this

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Speaker 1: film is definitely not earned. The white folks are seemingly

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Speaker 1: kidnapping the black folks because they want America to go

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Speaker 1: back to the way it was. It seems like the

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Speaker 1: creator's intent is to oppose this white supremacist sentiment, but

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Speaker 1: the vision isn't executed well, and in the end, it

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Speaker 1: gives what so many actual historical slavery movies give trauma

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Speaker 1: for the sake of trauma. I will say that some

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Speaker 1: people found the premise unbelievable, and that is fair, but

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's a completely bad heightened interpretation of

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Speaker 1: what's possible in real life, because it's not unbelievable that

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Speaker 1: like a white supremacist militia group would drug, kidnap whole

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Speaker 1: hostage and torture black people. It just wouldn't be in

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Speaker 1: something like a reenactment part that anyone can access and

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00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,000
Speaker 1: leave at any time, Like this is not an exact

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Speaker 1: parallel to reality, but I do think there are parts

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Speaker 1: of it that could be reality.

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Speaker 2: Antabellum gave like they thought they were really being provocative,

293
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Speaker 2: you know, like in that Kanye West sounds like it's provocative.

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Speaker 2: It gets the people going, like they thought like, oh,

295
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Speaker 2: people are going to be like whoa and like get

296
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Speaker 2: all these awards, but it just kind of like huh,

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Speaker 2: It's like this is what cinema is.

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Speaker 1: And sadly, Antebellum is not an example of how to

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Speaker 1: make a good movie about enslaved people. We need fewer

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Speaker 1: slavery movies that spoonfeed audiences, discussed shock and sympathy. But

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Speaker 1: I have to say that in general, feeling tired of

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00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,679
Speaker 1: slavery narratives period feels like a bit of a premature reaction.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just saying that because slavery movies are actually

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Speaker 1: kind of few and far between.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there really aren't that many that got major attention.

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Speaker 2: There was Django and chand in twenty twelve, Twelve Years

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Speaker 2: of Slave in twenty thirteen, Birth of a Nation in

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Speaker 2: twenty sixteen, Harriet in twenty nineteen, Alice in twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: and Emancipation also in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: The reality is, the film industry isn't flooded with slave movies,

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Speaker 1: so we're not really inundated with slavery related trauma porn.

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Speaker 1: It just seems that way because most of the movies

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Speaker 1: that we do get revel way too long in the

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Speaker 1: gore and the immorality of the whites. They don't spend

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Speaker 1: much time in the interior worlds of the black people.

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Speaker 1: It's like this horrible atrocity is just happening to black people.

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Speaker 1: People are not tired because they are literally too many

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Speaker 1: slave movies. They're tired because when they are released, they

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Speaker 1: do enslaved people's stories no justice. There are literally thousands

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Speaker 1: of stories about enslaved people that are compelling enough to

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Speaker 1: be depicted on screen, and they haven't been. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that every person should just love watching slavery films.

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Speaker 1: That would be wild of me to say. Of course,

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Speaker 1: that can still be a matter of personal preference. Even

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Speaker 1: having better slavery movies might not convince you to turn

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Speaker 1: one on, and that's totally fine. But if we are

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Speaker 1: going to ask for more of them, then we got

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Speaker 1: to be specific. If we're going to have more, we

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Speaker 1: need more well done, meaningful movies about slavery that are

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Speaker 1: skillfully crafted.

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Speaker 2: They shouldn't center white heroes.

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Speaker 1: They shouldn't cheaply use the horror and trauma that enslaved

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Speaker 1: people endure it to propel the story forward.

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Speaker 2: They shouldn't cater to white audience looking to be absolved

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Speaker 2: of their sins.

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Speaker 1: They should be sensitive to the humanity of enslaved people

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Speaker 1: because they were humans. They ate, they crafted, they danced.

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Speaker 1: We have so many untapped stories about slavery, and as

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Speaker 1: far as I know, there is no movie about James W. C. Pennington.

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Speaker 2: So somebody in your long hand make that and make it well.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but y'all, I feel like we have to prove

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Speaker 1: to you that we're not the only ones who might

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Speaker 1: want more slavery movies. We're not completely yelling into the void. Okay.

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Speaker 1: We talked to Cheney McKnight of Not Your Mama's History

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Speaker 1: more after the break. Hi, Cheney, I'm Eve so yeah,

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Speaker 1: excited to have you here today too. We'll get into

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Speaker 1: it then. So just tell us your name and then

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Speaker 1: however you like to introduce yourself.

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Speaker 3: My name is Cheney McKnight. I own a company called

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Speaker 3: Not Your Mama's History, and we have a YouTube channel.

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Speaker 3: We also go to sites, primarily sites of the enslavement

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Speaker 3: and help those sites to tell stories of black folks,

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Speaker 3: whether they were enslaved or free through the eighteenth and

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Speaker 3: nineteenth century. And on my social medias, I just try

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Speaker 3: and tell as many stories about black folks today and

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Speaker 3: in the past, and also try to look forward into

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Speaker 3: the future and bring us all into a better future.

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Speaker 1: So what inspired you to start that work?

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Speaker 3: Growing up in Georgia in Atlanta, we would go to

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Speaker 3: well at school, we would go to trips to plantations,

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Speaker 3: and especially when I went to a majority white school,

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Speaker 3: I was just looking around, like the interpretations they were

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Speaker 3: doing and the stories they were telling. I was like,

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Speaker 3: this really looks like and sounds like bullshit. So even

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00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 3: as a young child, I was like I got a question.

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Speaker 3: Like whenever the docin was like do you have a question,

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Speaker 3: I was the first person to raise my hand and say,

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Speaker 3: I have a lot of questions. And I was very

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Speaker 3: fortunate that I was raised by people who constantly took

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Speaker 3: me to exhibits on black folks throughout history.

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Speaker 1: So I know you're also into all these historical things

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Speaker 1: that you do in real life, but also in the

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Speaker 1: fictional world. I know that you're a film fan and

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Speaker 1: that you also watch a lot of historical films, and

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Speaker 1: some of those historical films are films about slavery and

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Speaker 1: about enslaved people. So what is your take on whether

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Speaker 1: we do not need more slavery films or whether we do.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, this is such a contentious topic, and for

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Speaker 3: a very good reason. I think if we look at

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Speaker 3: the history of movies of enslavement, we've gone through phases

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Speaker 3: where when you're looking at roots, people are trying to

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Speaker 3: show the whole nitty gritty truth about slavery. Going further back,

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00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 3: it's more like mental shows. So if you're looking at

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Speaker 3: Gone with a Win and Mammy's character, it's a caricature

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Speaker 3: and she is. Her character was not modeled often of

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Speaker 3: an actual enslaved person, so they weren't looking at primary documents.

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Speaker 3: They may have looked at some real women as far

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Speaker 3: as her face, but they were actually looking at mental

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Speaker 3: shows to build her character out. And then of course

390
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 3: coming into the future through Roots. I think the Roots period,

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Speaker 3: I understand where we were going because we're coming from

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Speaker 3: the other side, where they're showing it is lifels so

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Speaker 3: happy to be slaves and they're just having a good

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Speaker 3: old time. And then we're going all the way to

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Speaker 3: the extreme where every enslane person, on every second of

396
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 3: the day is being whipped. And yes, there was some

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Speaker 3: diversity in the experiences of these enslaved people, but there

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Speaker 3: are these very two extremes that I find both of

399
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 3: them stripped the humanity from people. Especially when we're coming

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00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 3: up into Amistad. There was a lot of strong storytelling,

401
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 3: but at the same time we missed a lot of

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00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 3: the humanity. And I think also who were these films

403
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: created for? Sorry, and I just the frustration for some

404
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: people is that there isn't this diversity of narratives and

405
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 3: a true humanity of these people shown in movies about enslavement.

406
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 3: And I look at Joker. You're able to humanize this

407
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: man who is pretty abhorrent, he's going through mental crisises.

408
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 3: But they're able to show a wide range of emotion

409
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 3: and humanity. And yet we are unable to do that

410
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 3: with enslaved persons who are actual, real people. And we

411
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 3: do have quite a bit of documentation about these people.

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Speaker 3: So I don't I would say, I don't want to

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Speaker 3: see another enslaved movie about enslavement in this country until

414
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 3: we see a full, well thought out story. One of

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00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: the things that I think about a lot when I'm

416
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 3: on a sight of enslavement, when I'm either sleeping at

417
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 3: a slave dwelling or in that place where enslave persons

418
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 3: were living. Sometimes when I'm laying in bed, I think about,

419
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 3: what are those conversations that they were having with their

420
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 3: loved one about their days while they're laid side by side.

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00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 3: What are those moments in the early morning when you're

422
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 3: you got to get out of bed and you like

423
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 3: and the babies crying and y'all arguing about who's gonna

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00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 3: pick up the baby. So things like that that I

425
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 3: really I'm not seeing brought in. And then also just

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00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 3: what about a for example, a love story of that

427
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: is not centered around enslavers. So I would love to

428
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: see a movie about enslaved persons that we don't see

429
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 3: and in slaver at all, but still showing the consequences

430
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: of living life as property, but not centering it on

431
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 3: that trauma, centering it on their experiences, their personality, their

432
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 3: interactions with one another, the relationships they build internally within

433
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 3: slave community. Those are some of the things that I'm

434
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: hoping to see, But I'm not sure if I trust

435
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 3: most media to do it correctly. So I'm not really

436
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 3: pushing people because I'm not trying to get my feelings hurt.

437
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: Uh huh, I feel you. Yeah. That was gonna be

438
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: my question to whether you think that would even be

439
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: possible when we know how Hollywood treats so many of

440
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: its other films in general, I.

441
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 3: Do not believe that if it is coming from Hollywood

442
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: or any of these large production houses, Absolutely not, don't.

443
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: I don't want to see it because it is not

444
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 3: for It is not for the ancestors. It is not

445
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 3: to tell the stories of the ancestors, It is not

446
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 3: to support the descendants. This is either trauma porn for

447
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 3: white folks or kind of a sorry excuse of like

448
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 3: white saviorism. So I don't think it's possible in the

449
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 3: way that our entertainment industry is structured now. However, I

450
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 3: am hopeful and prayerful that we will have independent companies

451
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 3: and funders who will come forward and give storytellers a chance,

452
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 3: writers who want to collabse break with historians like myself

453
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 3: and other historians. It doesn't have to be me. There's

454
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 3: wonderful historians out there and not compromise on telling these

455
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 3: stories appropriately.

456
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: So it sounds like of all the slave movies that

457
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: have been put out, you're not rocking with any of them.

458
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: Are there any are the ones put out by Hollywood?

459
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: Are there any movies or the fictional depictions of slavery

460
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 2: that you think did a good job?

461
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 3: Oh? I would say the closest would come Miss Jane Pittman.

462
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I mean.

463
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: It has those issues, but it really goes through her life,

464
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: and I just I think that they did a very

465
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 3: decent job of showing her full humanity as a person.

466
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: So it follows the life of an enslaved woman who

467
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 3: was born enslaved through her entire life from the nineteenth

468
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 3: century to her challenging Jim Crow laws by drinking out

469
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 3: of a of a white only drinking fountain. So I

470
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 3: mean it spans a whole a whole century, and so

471
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: I think that it really shows kind of the interactions,

472
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 3: the internal interactions within black community over over decades.

473
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: So did you see one with Kiki Palmer?

474
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: Oh, Alice?

475
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: I think Alice.

476
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 3: I did not see Alice. Unfortunately it wasn't said.

477
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: It was in like the seventies, so it was like

478
00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 2: a they were never told that slavery ended. So like

479
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: the people on that plantation have been enslaves until she escaped.

480
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: Which is this real, real life story. Yeah, I will definitely.

481
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 3: I have not seen that yet. I have seen most

482
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: of everything I've seen the one with Janelle.

483
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: Monet ante Bellum, which I don't know if you saw

484
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 4: my saw first of all, you've tore it down in

485
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 4: a very meticulous way.

486
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: Okay, give us some of it.

487
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh, ante Bellum. So the first thing first, it

488
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 3: was very interesting because from the jump, I was like,

489
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 3: this looks like a reenactment, because usually when Hollywood does

490
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 3: nineteenth century after I would say after the eighties, there's

491
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: at least proper undergarments, like the bell shape of the dresses.

492
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 3: Just just they were using like tiki torches or the

493
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: equivalent of tiki torches in the background, more modern stuff.

494
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 3: But it looked like the stuff that reenactors choose to

495
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 3: that feels old timy, and I was like, huh, which

496
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 3: actually fit very well. I think that's one thing they

497
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: did very well. It looked like modern people created a reenactment.

498
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 3: And then that's where it all went wrong.

499
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: And I guess that aligns with the twist of the movie.

500
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: Yes it does. So the twist is that yes, she

501
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: is this. They aren't actually enslaved back in the day.

502
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: At first, I thought it would be more like a

503
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: Kendrit so Octavia's Kendred. I know that lot of people

504
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: compared the two storylines, but it's not the same. One

505
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: is all set in the here and now, there's no

506
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: science fiction. The other one is very much steeped in

507
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: fiction and science fiction, jumping back and forth in time.

508
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 3: I see where they were trying to go, but it

509
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: was just why why it was just trauma for the

510
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 3: sake of trauma. And I really it really discussed me

511
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 3: when people use my ancestors just for the sake of

512
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: trauma and just the sake of horror.

513
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it also felt in that movie like they used

514
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: the entire institution of slavery as a plot point, like

515
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 1: they really didn't need to go back to the times

516
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 1: where people were enslaved to make this point that like

517
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: there are white supremacists and I don't want you to

518
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: live on this earth anymore. And that meant that because

519
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: they included slavery, it still fell victim to so many

520
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 1: of the problems that other movies that are actually about

521
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: slavery have. So yeah, lots of problems and trauma, lots

522
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 1: of trauma, And I can see with movies like that

523
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: and others why you wouldn't trust them. How can more

524
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: of that idea of the every day and the mundane

525
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: and community efforts, all those kinds of things, How can

526
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: more of those be included in slavery films? And what

527
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: do you think those should or could look like?

528
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 3: I think from the jump there has got to be

529
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 3: a lot of debunking. I cannot tell you how many

530
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 3: black folks have argued with me about the structure of

531
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 3: the enslaved community. This idea that light skinned people were

532
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 3: in the house and they only worked in the house,

533
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 3: and dark skinned people were in the field and they

534
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: only worked in the field. That just was not the

535
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: case for in every situation, or even the majority of situations.

536
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 3: We get a lot of that from Thomas Jefferson from

537
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 3: Monticello because he structured his enslaved persons the haves and

538
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 3: the have nots. So he put up those barriers very

539
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 3: strictly at Monticello, and of course there's a lot of

540
00:35:53,239 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 3: interviews of people from Monticello, so that's kind of the

541
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 3: view that we get. Also, a lot of what we

542
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,439
Speaker 3: know about enslaved communities comes from menstrreal shows. We don't

543
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 3: even realize how integrated our minteal shows are still in

544
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,960
Speaker 3: in our modern day entertainment, even outside of movies about enslavement.

545
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: So when we get to looking at community represented within

546
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 3: movies of enslavement, the first steps would be acclimating the

547
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 3: audience to really understanding the reality of these communities. And

548
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 3: that's a vast diversity within the Black community so people

549
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 3: who worked in the house would not have only worked

550
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 3: in the house because that's a waste of resources. People

551
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 3: who worked in the field would have had interactions with

552
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 3: people in the house because those are their family members

553
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: and their community members. I would show more events that

554
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 3: happened through the year, more daily interactions, so when you

555
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 3: are going to eat, there is always someone who will

556
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 3: be like, I have extra. So when you're reading the WPA,

557
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, the WPA narratives, you see a lot of

558
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 3: that where there are interactions between enslave persons, where people

559
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: have more of I don't know greens and another person

560
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 3: went hunting, and there isn't this running tab of you

561
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: owe me this or you owe that. You would have

562
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 3: just seen people dropping off greens or dropping off a

563
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:59,240
Speaker 3: hair like a rabbit or something dropping off even gator

564
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 3: where wherever you are to help support one another. When

565
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: you start looking at simple things that have been portrayed

566
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 3: as the happy negro singing in the field, that was

567
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: a community effort to protect one another. So first and foremost,

568
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 3: if you keep pace the young folks who you know,

569
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 3: they can outpace all of us. But if they do that,

570
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: then the rest of us will never be able to

571
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 3: keep up. It'll make and then someone will get punished.

572
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 3: But if you can keep a pace where the slower

573
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,399
Speaker 3: people can move up and the people, the young folks

574
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: who are you know out there, and then bring everybody

575
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 3: into about the middle. That is what the songs are

576
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 3: about keeping time. Also the love that the adults had

577
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 3: for the children when they teach them the songs. This

578
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 3: is an act of love because children started working at

579
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 3: four and expected to independently work. How many of us

580
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: have seen a four year old that can sit down

581
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 3: and actually do something like polish silver or make nails.

582
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 3: The nailery at Mount Vernon kids as young as six

583
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:33,879
Speaker 3: years old. So you teach them songs to keep them

584
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 3: on task. And maybe if the adult who is monitoring

585
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 3: them can't keep their eyes on them, but you can

586
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: call out and you can hear the song continue going,

587
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,280
Speaker 3: so you can hear that they're still at their task,

588
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 3: because if they aren't on task, we know what that

589
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 3: will mean. So there are little things within the daily

590
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: life of enslaved persons that have been it's represented for years.

591
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 3: That is an act of community love and mediation for

592
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:13,280
Speaker 3: one another. Also, looking at the structure of enslaved communities.

593
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 3: Pastors and preachers were considered very dangerous because they had

594
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 3: a lot of power within enslaved communities. Also, African born folks,

595
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 3: especially if they were healers, they were considered to be

596
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: powerful and they held special places within Black communities. Elders

597
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: held special places within Black communities. A lot of times,

598
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 3: when we see movies where they look at the internal

599
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 3: structure of the enslave community, they really put the perceptions

600
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 3: of the enslavers and how they perceive the enslaved community

601
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 3: and their leadership. So if you look at some movies,

602
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 3: it is the black overseers that are considered to be

603
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 3: in charge or the master's man, the butler, or the housekeeper,

604
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 3: and that's just not the case. Black folks appointed their

605
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 3: own leadership. And if whenever I see and I'm looking

606
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 3: at journals or papers and if an enslaver here's about

607
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 3: an issue that's going on within the enslaved community, there

608
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 3: is a serious breakdown within the community, that means that

609
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 3: through a lot of work, they could not resolve it.

610
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,720
Speaker 3: And so that is so rare. When I see really

611
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:59,359
Speaker 3: serious incidents make it to the enslaver's ears. That means

612
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 3: that something's going within the community.

613
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: Clearly, everything you just said, I heard conflict, you know,

614
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: I heard love, I heard care, I heard organization. I mean,

615
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: all of these things are parts of storytelling. So it's

616
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: not like anybody can sit there and say, well, they're

617
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 1: not interesting. Yes they are. They're people's lives. So I

618
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: think I'm glad that you say it so much because

619
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: it helps people understand who may not be so familiar

620
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: with the history of slavery. I mean, I would guess

621
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: most people aren't like you are because you study it

622
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: and you work on these things. I think it really

623
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 1: helps break down just how many more stories we need

624
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: to hear. And that also, I think you made it

625
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: clear that just like these films that we're seeing is

626
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: just a continuation, a perpetuation of the idea that, like

627
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 1: these histories are being written by our oppressors. Like, just

628
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: how much we need to pay attention to the people

629
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: who are creating these works that we are consuming, and

630
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: that you know, if we're cognizant of that, then we

631
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: can also understand that there are creators who can hold

632
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: these things with more sensitivity and care. So are there

633
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: any specific enslaved people whose stories you like? To see

634
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: and created by the made by the right creators of

635
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 1: course told well, like let's assume that they know what

636
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: they're doing. They are masterful at visual storytelling. They treat

637
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:36,239
Speaker 1: the story really well. All of that. Let's assume all

638
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: of that is the case. Is there any person's story

639
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 1: you like to see on screen?

640
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: There is one particular person that I have wanted to

641
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 3: hear see the story played out on video on film,

642
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 3: and that is Hercules Posey, chef Hercules Posey. He was

643
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 3: enslaved by George Washington, and the foremost historian on Hercules

644
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 3: Posy is Ramine Genish Tramp and she has made it

645
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 3: her life's work to telling his story. There have been

646
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 3: people who have taken advantage of that and misrepresented her

647
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: work and Hercules Posy. So for me, I would love

648
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 3: to see his full story played out. Because he was

649
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 3: a chef, he was also considered to be a dandy.

650
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 3: But also no matter how well he was treated, still,

651
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 3: oh that's a good question. So someone who dresses very

652
00:44:55,239 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 3: well and carries themselves very posh. Well, so he always

653
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: had his hair on point, he always had his clothing

654
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 3: on point. And we know that he was married, he

655
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 3: had children, and he may have trained his son in

656
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: his craft as well. His story spans from Virginia to

657
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 3: New York, through Pennsylvania through the presidency, and it also

658
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 3: shows what I like to continually point out to people

659
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 3: that we have got to stop describing slavery based off

660
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: of the conditions, because for every one experience that enslaved

661
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 3: persons had, I can point to a poor white person

662
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: that had a similar experience. However, the horror of slavery

663
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 3: is really rooted in the fact that it is hereditary

664
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: chattel slavery, that they will be enslaved, their children will

665
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 3: be enslaved, their grandchildren will be enslaved, their great grandchildren

666
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: will be enslaved, and so on and so forth, with

667
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 3: no change. And so whether someone is wearing the finest

668
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 3: clothing at one moment, George Washington showed him at the

669
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 3: next moment, I could have you in rags, breaking rocks.

670
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: So his life really spans and he also was a

671
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: freedom seeker. He grabbed his own freedom, and so I

672
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 3: love his story and I think, if ever I had

673
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 3: a wish, I would love to see that. I would

674
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:56,000
Speaker 3: love to see Hercules posey. I would love to see

675
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 3: the actual historians brought in primarily were me Ganishram, who

676
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: dedicated her life to his story. Yeah.

677
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 2: I just can only imagine the things he heard being

678
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:10,720
Speaker 2: George Washington's chef.

679
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, on a judge, on a judge as well,

680
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 3: because she she literally wore silk gowns, never was swept,

681
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 3: laid in bed, and when she reached for her freedom

682
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 3: and sought her freedom along with her children, and someone

683
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: came to her when she was living in squalor and

684
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 3: they were like, the Washington's will take you back, she

685
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 3: was like, nah, I'm good, I'm good here in poverty.

686
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:43,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

687
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 3: So it really shows how precious freedom is.

688
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: Right no matter like you said, the condition, because at

689
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 2: the end of the day, you are considered someone's property,

690
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: whether you're in a silk robe or not.

691
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 3: Right, and they love, they love. So one of the

692
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 3: interesting things about North American slavery that's different from the

693
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 3: West Indies. I find in the West Indies they relied

694
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 3: on share brutality to keep people in line, and I

695
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 3: think it creates a different mentality because you have absolutely

696
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: nothing to lose. And also they were outnumbered in the

697
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 3: West Indies. In North America, it's really a mind game,

698
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 3: the mental manipulation that slavery in America. It really is

699
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 3: very fascinating and I like to see that more explicitly

700
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: explored on film, because you can even see the mental

701
00:48:54,719 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 3: mind games today, for example, when people as we're good

702
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 3: to you, aren't we mind games?

703
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: Mind game, master manipulator?

704
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:09,240
Speaker 3: Right?

705
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that these kind of explorations would be

706
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: more suited to other mediums versus films because we got

707
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: we get films mostly, But what do you think about

708
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: maybe maybe TV being more suited to it, or podcast

709
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: or what other kinds of mediums?

710
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 3: Again? I think yes, podcasts, especially when it is really

711
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 3: directed by specific people who have the mental fortitude to

712
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: say fuck you to money, to people who want to

713
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 3: change the narrative it is. I assure you, it's really

714
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 3: hard to say no to a lot of zero's. It

715
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 3: was very hard. But I think it takes someone who

716
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:08,720
Speaker 3: is someone who has no self resonation or someone who's

717
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 3: just singularly focused on telling these stories.

718
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: So you're saying there's some hope, I think so, I'm

719
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 1: just putting some stuff out into the universe.

720
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 3: I really hope that people will want to tell our stories.

721
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: I am not ashamed of being a descendant of enslaved persons.

722
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,479
Speaker 3: These are some of the strongest people I have ever met,

723
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 3: because I've met them through their narratives, through the things

724
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 3: that they've left, and I just can't help but want

725
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 3: to introduce the world to them. Also, the majority of

726
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 3: black folks in this country before the mid nineteenth century

727
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 3: were enslaved, and is so frustrating when people say, why

728
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 3: don't you tell this free person's story or this one

729
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:03,280
Speaker 3: in a million persons story instead of slight stories about slavery.

730
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 3: And I can't help but be pissed off and annoyed

731
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: that people are dismissing the majority of my ancestors because

732
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 3: it makes them feel uncomfortable. And people are just lazy

733
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 3: in their storytelling. Tell our stories correctly and tell them fully,

734
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,760
Speaker 3: That's all I ask. If they can tell the Joker

735
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: as a full human being, they can tell hercules story.

736
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: So now it's time for role credits, the segment where

737
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: we give credit to a person, place, or thing that

738
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 2: we encountered during the week. And we have our guests

739
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 2: Shamey joining us. But first, Eves, who are what would

740
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 2: you like to give credit to?

741
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: Today? I want to give credit to tab managers. I

742
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 1: know that seems very petty, but I often have a

743
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: lot of tabs open, so I shouldn't because they create

744
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: a lot of clutter in my brain space. But that's

745
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: how I got to operate sometimes. So TAP managers have

746
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: been helpful to me so particularly this week, and that's

747
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 1: what I want to give credit to today.

748
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 2: How about you, Cheney.

749
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: I want to give credit to Jerome Outlar. He's my

750
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: business partner and he's just a positive for us that

751
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 3: is always keeping me on track. Also when I possibly

752
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 3: want to strangle people, he has saved a few lives.

753
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 3: I have not tried to murder anyone.

754
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 1: I mean, by the way you describe some of the

755
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 1: situations you're in because of your work, it seems like

756
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: it could test a lot of things. So it's understandable.

757
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 3: Jerome got my back.

758
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: Got out to Jerome.

759
00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: Shout out to Jerome. What about you, Katie.

760
00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: I'd like to give credit to librarians. I spent a

761
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: lot of time in libraries, and when you find a

762
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: good librarian, like you can know a library back and forth,

763
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: but sometimes you just have a question that you can't

764
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,880
Speaker 2: figure out unless you're the librarian. And it's so funny,

765
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 2: like you'll take so long trying to figure it out

766
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: and then you just ask library and they're like, oh yeah,

767
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 2: here's the answer, and you're like, wow, I love you.

768
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: So I had that I had that happened to me

769
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 2: this week, and so I want to give credit to librarians.

770
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 2: So where can folks find you online?

771
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 3: Not Your Mama's History and Mama spelled m m as.

772
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook. I'm constantly

773
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 3: doing things around the country, so you can also find

774
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 3: me on that Your Mama's History dot com. So to

775
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 3: kind of figure out where I'll be in the upcoming

776
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 3: weeks months.

777
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 2: Yere perfect. Thank you so much for joining us, Thank you,

778
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 2: Thank You.

779
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.

780
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,280
Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.

781
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us

782
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us

783
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head

784
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: to on Theme dot Show to check out the show

785
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

786
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

787
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: favorite shows,