WEBVTT - What If Closure Never Comes? 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:29.396 --> 0:00:33.996 The certainty I had was absolute. I don't want that. 0:00:34.116 --> 0:00:36.956 There was not a grain of doubt anywhere, you know. 0:00:37.756 --> 0:00:41.076 Radio producer Helena de Grotte spent the majority of her 0:00:41.116 --> 0:00:44.636 life assuming she would never have kids. That As she 0:00:44.716 --> 0:00:48.636 got older, people's criticism of that choice started to intensify, 0:00:48.996 --> 0:00:50.636 and it left her unmoored. 0:00:51.116 --> 0:00:53.796 Even as I was saying no, no, no, I don't 0:00:53.796 --> 0:00:56.876 want kids, on the inside, I thought there has to 0:00:56.956 --> 0:00:59.356 be something wrong with me for not wanting that. 0:01:03.076 --> 0:01:10.996 On today's show, Navigating the Road Less Taken, I'm Maya Shunker, 0:01:11.236 --> 0:01:14.676 a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 0:01:14.716 --> 0:01:17.756 slight change of plans, a show about who we are 0:01:17.996 --> 0:01:25.556 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:01:29.196 --> 0:01:32.676 When Helena was young and imagine her future, she pictured 0:01:32.716 --> 0:01:36.676 an apartment in a big, exciting city, a cool job, 0:01:36.836 --> 0:01:41.236 and weekends dancing at nightclubs. Children simply weren't in this picture, 0:01:41.836 --> 0:01:44.756 which wasn't an issue for Helena until she was in 0:01:44.796 --> 0:01:45.476 her twenties. 0:01:46.156 --> 0:01:49.356 I love talking to strangers. I'd sit on the train 0:01:49.716 --> 0:01:52.156 or on the bus going somewhere and I would just 0:01:52.236 --> 0:01:55.156 start talking to the person next to me, and they'd 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:56.996 be like, oh, you know, what are you doing? And 0:01:57.036 --> 0:01:59.676 I was probably still at university and they're like, oh, 0:01:59.716 --> 0:02:02.956 what are your plans after and you know, like, uh, 0:02:03.356 --> 0:02:05.316 do you want kids? And I'd be like, yeah, I 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:08.076 don't think so. And I said, I don't think so 0:02:08.196 --> 0:02:12.156 because I'd never thought, but I would do that. But 0:02:12.396 --> 0:02:21.116 every time this stranger, whoever they were, men, women, middle aged, older, thirty, 0:02:21.436 --> 0:02:24.636 you know, they would push back so hard and they 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:28.636 would say some version of you're making a mistake, You're 0:02:28.676 --> 0:02:32.716 going to regret this, You're missing out on the greatest 0:02:32.836 --> 0:02:37.876 love that exists. So I think it's just in response 0:02:37.956 --> 0:02:43.236 to that that I became much more militant. The reaction 0:02:43.836 --> 0:02:47.076 is sort of what turns my ugh, I don't think 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:48.196 so into a no. 0:02:48.916 --> 0:02:53.316 You know, what were the reasons you found yourself giving 0:02:53.596 --> 0:02:55.796 to others about why you did not want kids? 0:02:56.316 --> 0:02:59.236 Yeah? I think okay, So on the outside, right, I 0:02:59.276 --> 0:03:03.156 said no pretty consistently. But one of the things that 0:03:03.276 --> 0:03:08.396 made me unsure on the inside was the fact that 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:11.916 if someone ask me why, I could never come up 0:03:11.956 --> 0:03:15.316 with a definitive answer. And my answer also changed depending 0:03:15.316 --> 0:03:17.196 on the day, you all, depending on how I was 0:03:17.236 --> 0:03:20.236 feeling or what I was thinking about. Most that week, 0:03:20.556 --> 0:03:24.236 and so I always felt like I was lying a 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:27.236 little bit, you know, because I would say something like, oh, 0:03:27.396 --> 0:03:30.596 you know, like I don't think I can combine that 0:03:30.676 --> 0:03:34.076 with the kind of you know, poorly paid work that 0:03:34.276 --> 0:03:37.836 is most interesting to me, or like I think I 0:03:37.876 --> 0:03:41.636 want to travel more, or there's like a lot of 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:45.076 mental health issues in my family and I don't want 0:03:45.076 --> 0:03:50.116 to pass that on. Every reason I gave I knew 0:03:50.316 --> 0:03:55.836 was not the reason, but it becomes calcified, like once 0:03:55.876 --> 0:04:00.156 you believe something about yourself, you find evidence for it everywhere, 0:04:00.956 --> 0:04:03.556 and so it made it hard for me to trust myself. 0:04:04.476 --> 0:04:09.236 Yes, well, I think what you're describing illustrates that there 0:04:09.316 --> 0:04:11.716 is something very curious about the way we engage with 0:04:11.796 --> 0:04:17.356 this topic. How interesting is it that the burden of proof, 0:04:17.396 --> 0:04:21.276 if you will, the burden lies on the person choosing 0:04:21.356 --> 0:04:25.316 not to do something versus choosing to do something. I 0:04:25.436 --> 0:04:29.556 have so rarely heard someone ask anyone I know or me, 0:04:30.196 --> 0:04:32.836 why do you want kids? The default assumption is, of 0:04:32.876 --> 0:04:36.556 course you should want kids, no justification needed. Go forward. 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:39.476 We a society will celebrate you, and I don't know 0:04:39.516 --> 0:04:41.716 if that's true in other domains. Right, we would ask 0:04:41.716 --> 0:04:44.076 someone like why are you moving to this other country? 0:04:44.316 --> 0:04:49.476 Typically we interrogate action of some kind, proactive decisions, and 0:04:49.556 --> 0:04:52.116 yet this is one topic. This is one area of 0:04:52.116 --> 0:04:56.076 life that seems to be immune from that kind of scrutiny. Absolutely, 0:04:56.116 --> 0:04:58.636 the marriage might be another example of this. Well, of 0:04:58.676 --> 0:05:00.796 course you want to get married, right, There are just 0:05:00.876 --> 0:05:03.316 certain social norms where we simply don't question that the 0:05:03.356 --> 0:05:04.836 default should be yes. 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:08.036 I think you're absolutely right that that is in general. 0:05:08.156 --> 0:05:12.196 How it is this said, I think for me I 0:05:12.236 --> 0:05:16.156 would respond with just that question, Oh, tell me why 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:19.316 do you want kids? You know, And it wasn't really 0:05:19.316 --> 0:05:23.516 to be like contrarian or to hold up a mirror, 0:05:23.636 --> 0:05:25.556 you know, it was really just more like, oh, I 0:05:25.596 --> 0:05:28.396 am curious, though, tell me why is this something you 0:05:28.436 --> 0:05:33.076 feel so strongly about. For instance, with my best friend Sigrid, 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:35.756 who I met when I was in my early twenties, 0:05:36.236 --> 0:05:39.636 you know, we weren't at all ready to have kids, right, 0:05:39.756 --> 0:05:42.636 none of my none of our friends were at all 0:05:42.636 --> 0:05:46.436 in that stage yet. But she knew for certain that 0:05:46.476 --> 0:05:49.796 she wanted kids, and so yeah, she would push back 0:05:50.076 --> 0:05:52.676 and she would say, but you know, you have so 0:05:52.796 --> 0:05:54.996 much love to give, and like, I think you'd be 0:05:54.996 --> 0:05:59.276 great at it. But I would ask her and probe 0:05:59.436 --> 0:06:03.476 and you know, push her to explain herself just as well, 0:06:03.636 --> 0:06:07.036 you know, like it was really very mutual. She already 0:06:07.076 --> 0:06:08.996 knew back then that she wanted to be a journalist, 0:06:09.196 --> 0:06:12.356 not exactly the best paid field or the most stable. 0:06:12.796 --> 0:06:14.756 So I would also ask her, like, are you not 0:06:14.836 --> 0:06:19.356 afraid that you just won't have the you know that 0:06:20.156 --> 0:06:23.036 it won't be possible logistically to be a journalist. You 0:06:23.076 --> 0:06:25.396 will need more money, you will need to be at 0:06:25.436 --> 0:06:30.516 home at more regular hours, you know, and like, aren't 0:06:30.556 --> 0:06:35.796 you afraid? I just always felt like, once you have 0:06:35.836 --> 0:06:39.156 a kid, you have like an open wound, you know, 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:42.476 and you have to trust the world. That's hard already 0:06:42.876 --> 0:06:45.636 to be good to this open wound, you. 0:06:45.596 --> 0:06:50.556 Know, absolutely. And it's interesting too that you mentioned, you know, 0:06:50.556 --> 0:06:53.036 people say you have so much love to give, you'd 0:06:53.036 --> 0:06:55.996 be such an amazing mom. There's lots of things that 0:06:56.316 --> 0:06:58.156 each of us would be amazing at that we choose 0:06:58.196 --> 0:06:58.796 not to do. 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:04.996 And especially love, like that argument that I wouldn't get 0:07:05.036 --> 0:07:09.796 to experience, like the greatest kind of love. That's how 0:07:09.796 --> 0:07:11.756 everyone would put it. It was like a hierarchy, you know, 0:07:11.956 --> 0:07:15.916 the best one that kind of shook me the most. 0:07:16.236 --> 0:07:18.636 You know, when people would say something like that. 0:07:19.796 --> 0:07:23.476 What did that do to your conviction? Did you question yourself? 0:07:23.556 --> 0:07:25.556 Did you think, oh my god, is there something wrong 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:27.836 with me? Did you think I have to figure out 0:07:27.836 --> 0:07:30.236 a way to get comfortable having kids? Walk me through 0:07:30.796 --> 0:07:32.836 how you would respond to that kind of feedback. 0:07:33.076 --> 0:07:37.716 Yeah, oh I would absolutely land on the question what 0:07:37.836 --> 0:07:41.076 is wrong with me? That is always what I concluded, 0:07:41.196 --> 0:07:43.676 you know, like there has to be something wrong with 0:07:43.716 --> 0:07:48.636 me for not wanting that. And this was not entirely baseless, 0:07:48.716 --> 0:07:52.636 you know, like one of the things that I found 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:56.756 so astonishing about this decision to have kids is that 0:07:56.836 --> 0:08:00.076 you don't know what you're getting yourself into, you know, Like, 0:08:00.116 --> 0:08:02.716 you can read about it all you want. You can 0:08:02.756 --> 0:08:05.276 read an entire library of books about having children, you 0:08:05.316 --> 0:08:09.716 can talk to everyone you know who has children. You 0:08:09.796 --> 0:08:12.236 will not know what it's like for you to be 0:08:12.316 --> 0:08:16.556 a parent until you do it, you know. And so 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:20.076 the fact that people were doing it regardless, I thought 0:08:20.196 --> 0:08:25.596 was so brave. And I always felt like I lack 0:08:25.756 --> 0:08:28.956 that bravery, Like I'm a little bit of a control freak, 0:08:29.396 --> 0:08:33.636 you know, I get really knocked off balance when I 0:08:33.676 --> 0:08:36.236 don't know there's like some last minute change or like 0:08:36.356 --> 0:08:38.996 all of a sudden someone suggests sort of like an 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:42.516 impromptu trip, or I'm always like, oh no, no, if 0:08:42.556 --> 0:08:44.436 I don't have like advanced warning, like I'm not going 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:45.276 to do it, you know. 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:46.356 Yeah, yeah, total. 0:08:46.916 --> 0:08:50.596 And so I think that is what I thought about, 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:52.676 you know, is the fact that I don't want kids 0:08:52.716 --> 0:08:55.916 just another example of me being led by my fears. 0:08:57.796 --> 0:09:01.996 And so that's why I thought, even as I was 0:09:02.036 --> 0:09:05.036 saying no, no, no, I don't want kids, on the inside, 0:09:05.196 --> 0:09:08.436 I thought there must be something wrong with me and 0:09:08.516 --> 0:09:10.996 I want to change that. Is that possible? 0:09:11.316 --> 0:09:14.076 So if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is 0:09:15.436 --> 0:09:17.676 you knew, and so many of us know. We're told 0:09:17.676 --> 0:09:22.116 this time and time again that parenthood is a transformative experience, right, 0:09:22.156 --> 0:09:25.396 It's impossible to predict who you will become on the 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:29.196 other side of parenthood. And I agree with you. I 0:09:29.196 --> 0:09:31.836 think there is a lot of bravery involved in taking 0:09:31.876 --> 0:09:36.876 that leap. But what I'm hearing you say is I 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:39.116 wasn't willing to gamble on that transformation. 0:09:39.916 --> 0:09:43.916 Yeah right, yes, And I didn't like that about myself. 0:09:44.316 --> 0:09:47.076 I knew that I was missing out on a lot 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:52.316 of good life by saying no to things almost by default, 0:09:52.916 --> 0:09:53.756 which I did do. 0:09:54.836 --> 0:09:57.756 So I want to fast forward to when you're twenty eight. 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:00.996 You have this whirlwind romance with this guy named David. 0:10:01.516 --> 0:10:04.556 You get married very quickly. You are very candid about 0:10:04.556 --> 0:10:07.276 the fact that you don't want kids. He understands that 0:10:07.276 --> 0:10:11.956 that is your reality, that is your preface. Several years 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:17.476 into your marriage, you find yourself staring at a positive 0:10:17.516 --> 0:10:20.076 pregnancy test. Bring me back to that moment. 0:10:25.876 --> 0:10:29.476 Even before I did the test, I knew it was 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:36.236 very very early. There was just something different about my brain. 0:10:36.796 --> 0:10:41.196 You know. It's as if like all the hard edges 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:45.356 of my cells had been filed down. And so I 0:10:45.436 --> 0:10:51.676 saw the result and I wasn't afraid, I wasn't shocked. 0:10:53.276 --> 0:10:57.956 It was confirmation of what I knew was true, and 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:02.156 it was just such a there was a kind of 0:11:02.236 --> 0:11:10.076 blank in my mind because by that time David and 0:11:10.116 --> 0:11:14.636 I had been fighting so much for years about this topic, 0:11:15.356 --> 0:11:19.116 because I told him that I didn't want kids and 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:21.836 he had accepted that. But then very quickly after we 0:11:21.876 --> 0:11:25.556 got married, he started trying to convince me. And it 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:28.636 was sort of light at first, and then ever more 0:11:28.716 --> 0:11:31.956 insistent you know, as we both got older, as he 0:11:32.036 --> 0:11:36.476 started thinking more about what is the point of life? 0:11:36.836 --> 0:11:39.836 You know, he started asking these really big questions, and 0:11:39.916 --> 0:11:42.236 for him, the answer was clear. The point of life 0:11:42.316 --> 0:11:45.076 is to have again. And so he became ever more insistent, 0:11:45.156 --> 0:11:48.276 and he pushed me so hard that I had to 0:11:48.316 --> 0:11:52.356 push back very hard, and so I hardened. You know, 0:11:52.636 --> 0:11:59.036 I had become so inert. The certainty I had was absolute. 0:11:59.436 --> 0:12:02.636 I don't want that. It was almost like a fight 0:12:02.676 --> 0:12:05.756 that isn't a fight because you're not really having a conversation, 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:11.116 You're just standing there entrenched in your position. And then 0:12:11.156 --> 0:12:17.436 I got pregnant, and it was such a reality check, 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:22.356 like you can have opinions, you can have like a 0:12:22.436 --> 0:12:28.556 strong stance, and then there's your body having its own program, 0:12:29.116 --> 0:12:31.276 you know. And so it became all of a sudden 0:12:31.276 --> 0:12:34.556 a very different thing. It became like it was no 0:12:34.636 --> 0:12:36.396 longer abstract. You know. 0:12:38.476 --> 0:12:44.276 Tell me what it was like to tell David this news. 0:12:45.076 --> 0:12:50.116 The moment I told him, I could see that he 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:53.996 was trying to be a good man about this, you 0:12:53.996 --> 0:12:58.316 know that he like he said, like you know, oh, 0:12:58.756 --> 0:13:01.956 you know, and of course you know, this is your decision, 0:13:02.036 --> 0:13:04.156 you know, like your body your choice, Like he said 0:13:04.196 --> 0:13:08.996 that literally, but his face said something completely different. He 0:13:09.236 --> 0:13:11.876 was like holding his hands in front of his mouth 0:13:12.796 --> 0:13:17.876 as he like, oh, and I could tell sort of 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:21.596 between his fingers that he was just all lit up, 0:13:21.956 --> 0:13:27.316 you know, he was so immediately suffused with happiness and 0:13:28.276 --> 0:13:32.396 wonder and amazement and gratitude. And so in that moment, 0:13:32.556 --> 0:13:38.356 I felt like my attempt at rationality, you know, like 0:13:38.716 --> 0:13:42.476 let me go through the rubric one more time like 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:44.916 bros and cons and let me then make a decision 0:13:44.916 --> 0:13:47.916 and then inform him like it made no sense. And 0:13:47.956 --> 0:13:53.756 I just thought my reasons or my resistance or my fear, 0:13:55.196 --> 0:13:58.676 it doesn't matter. I felt like he was connected to 0:13:58.756 --> 0:14:02.836 some truth about life that I didn't understand. And so 0:14:02.916 --> 0:14:06.436 I felt like, well, if he feels it. And everyone 0:14:06.596 --> 0:14:08.676 says that as soon as you have a kid, you 0:14:08.876 --> 0:14:11.996 love them like you would take a bullet for that kid, 0:14:12.236 --> 0:14:14.596 you know, like some you are transformed. I was like, 0:14:14.636 --> 0:14:18.716 I mean, probably that will happen, right, So in that moment, 0:14:18.756 --> 0:14:21.436 I just thought, I think I just have to give 0:14:21.556 --> 0:14:25.636 up just standing so firm in my conviction and just 0:14:25.716 --> 0:14:31.996 go with this incredible moment. So I said like, Okay, 0:14:32.356 --> 0:14:34.036 you know let's do it. 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:39.116 Tell me about the first week of your pregnancy. 0:14:39.196 --> 0:14:43.276 The pregnancy immediately transformed me in a way that I 0:14:43.276 --> 0:14:48.076 didn't even know was possible. I control freak, you know, 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:55.516 easily anxious. I was calm, and I was optimistic, you know, 0:14:55.796 --> 0:14:58.836 like usually, like I can really get into such a 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:01.956 doom spiral when I open the newspaper, you know, like 0:15:02.036 --> 0:15:04.076 I cannot get it out of my head that everything 0:15:04.116 --> 0:15:07.916 is getting worse and will only get worse, like there 0:15:07.916 --> 0:15:10.076 are no breaks on my anxiety. 0:15:10.476 --> 0:15:13.236 And sorry to interrupt that, I've heard you say that 0:15:13.836 --> 0:15:16.036 when people will tell you, Helena, you will love this 0:15:16.116 --> 0:15:20.196 child so much. Your experience with these doom spirals and 0:15:20.676 --> 0:15:22.716 the fact that you have a history of depression has 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:25.796 led you to say, exactly, And so if I were 0:15:25.836 --> 0:15:27.716 to love this kid so much, why would I subject 0:15:27.716 --> 0:15:29.996 them to this life, to this planet. 0:15:30.436 --> 0:15:36.956 Yes? Absolutely, that was so strong, Like either they will 0:15:36.956 --> 0:15:41.356 have depression too, right, because it's hereditary. Or they will 0:15:41.356 --> 0:15:44.036 be fine, but they will have a depressed mom okay, 0:15:44.076 --> 0:15:47.596 also not great. Or they will not be depressed. My 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:50.396 medication will continue to work. I will not be depressed. 0:15:50.836 --> 0:15:53.076 And still there's all the stuff that's no one's fault, 0:15:53.156 --> 0:15:56.716 you know, just sickness or ordinary misfortune. 0:15:57.036 --> 0:16:00.356 And given that backdrop, then how extraordinary for you to 0:16:00.436 --> 0:16:03.916 feel the opposite. Yes, during this moment. 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:08.356 I felt so capable, I really, you know, usually I 0:16:08.396 --> 0:16:10.356 feel like, wow, the world is so big and you 0:16:10.436 --> 0:16:13.236 have so little sway, right, Like what can you do? 0:16:13.316 --> 0:16:15.116 You can hold a sign and go protest, and you 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:21.676 can you know, vote. It's so ridiculous how little power 0:16:21.716 --> 0:16:25.916 you have. And then I was pregnant, and it was 0:16:26.076 --> 0:16:30.596 almost as if my shoulders got broader and my back 0:16:30.716 --> 0:16:35.436 got straighter, and my feet seemed like more firmly planted 0:16:35.916 --> 0:16:40.476 on the floor. And I was really like, bring it on. 0:16:41.356 --> 0:16:44.396 I can protect this child, you know. Sure the world 0:16:44.396 --> 0:16:46.676 that cannot change, not in the way that I would like, 0:16:47.396 --> 0:16:50.916 but I can make a home that's safe and loving, 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:57.236 and I can give them the strength to face this world, 0:16:57.396 --> 0:17:01.876 you know, with integrity and bravery and love. I can 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:04.916 do that. There was a way in which I didn't 0:17:04.956 --> 0:17:09.436 recognize myself, but I love this new self, and I 0:17:09.476 --> 0:17:12.596 was like, if the me who has the child is 0:17:12.636 --> 0:17:16.756 a me who can do it, then what's the problem, right? 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:19.116 The me who doesn't want to have a child is 0:17:19.676 --> 0:17:22.876 like it doesn't. She doesn't exist anymore, so we don't 0:17:22.916 --> 0:17:25.476 have to worry about her anymore. You know, this new 0:17:25.516 --> 0:17:28.156 one is totally capable. 0:17:29.156 --> 0:17:30.476 So what happened next? 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:36.916 You know, there was something a little sad about feeling 0:17:37.116 --> 0:17:40.476 so great, because I was like, wait, this is how 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:45.036 a lot of other people feel all the time, you know, 0:17:45.316 --> 0:17:49.076 like they feel like, oh, life is a gift, and 0:17:49.396 --> 0:17:53.316 you know, every day is another opportunity to do something beautiful, 0:17:53.556 --> 0:17:58.996 you know. And and sure things are bad right now, 0:17:59.156 --> 0:18:03.676 you know, politically, but yeah, you know, maybe by the 0:18:03.756 --> 0:18:07.476 time my kid is growing up, you know, things will 0:18:07.516 --> 0:18:10.116 be better and we'll have a more beauty full society. 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:12.796 I was like, wow, people, there are people who go 0:18:12.876 --> 0:18:16.996 through life like that. Yeah, duh, that they would want 0:18:17.036 --> 0:18:18.716 to have a kid, you know, of course. 0:18:19.356 --> 0:18:19.596 Yeah. 0:18:19.836 --> 0:18:22.996 And so when I felt that way, I thought, Okay, 0:18:24.756 --> 0:18:29.676 welcome yourself. Thank God for this change. I'm not going 0:18:29.796 --> 0:18:32.556 to dwell on the fact that I've not always had this. 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:35.756 I'm just gonna run with the fact that I have 0:18:35.836 --> 0:18:38.436 this new chance, I have this new lease on life, 0:18:38.716 --> 0:18:42.396 you know, and I can be the person who is 0:18:42.556 --> 0:18:48.556 fit to be a mom. And then that changed this 0:18:48.756 --> 0:18:55.916 feeling of competence and calm I think lasted for about 0:18:55.956 --> 0:19:01.796 two weeks and then there was like a steep cliff. 0:19:02.396 --> 0:19:07.676 It just the hormones changed or I don't know what happened. 0:19:07.716 --> 0:19:12.236 You know, I felt, yeah, like my brain was back 0:19:12.556 --> 0:19:16.836 to how it always is, you know, I got afraid again. 0:19:20.476 --> 0:19:24.316 After the break, Helena makes a decision that changes everything. 0:19:25.076 --> 0:19:27.156 We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:47.876 of plans. Helena's first week of pregnancy was not at 0:19:47.916 --> 0:19:52.316 all what she expected. She experienced a lightness, a newfound 0:19:52.356 --> 0:19:56.676 confidence about her ability to parent children in an uncertain world. 0:19:57.196 --> 0:20:01.116 But that sense of peace and hopefulness didn't last, and 0:20:01.156 --> 0:20:04.916 she found herself questioning again whether to go through with 0:20:04.996 --> 0:20:05.636 the pregnancy. 0:20:06.196 --> 0:20:08.196 You know how like when you do drugs and you're 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:10.116 having such a good time and then the next day 0:20:10.156 --> 0:20:11.916 it's almost as if you have to pay for it, 0:20:11.956 --> 0:20:14.956 you know, like the Yeah, the size of my happiness 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:16.996 is now the size of my Like. 0:20:17.876 --> 0:20:21.036 I appreciate, I appreciate that you think that I've done drugs. 0:20:23.356 --> 0:20:25.876 I've never even had alcohol. So that's what you're working 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:30.676 with here. Okay, great, I can appreciate intellectually what you're describing. 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:31.436 The comedown. 0:20:32.116 --> 0:20:34.876 Yeah, the colmdown exactly. It was almost as if I 0:20:34.916 --> 0:20:37.396 had a come down, you know, the hormones left, and 0:20:37.436 --> 0:20:42.756 I wasn't just dropped into my previous anxious self. I 0:20:42.916 --> 0:20:46.516 was dropped into like that Helena on overdrive. 0:20:47.356 --> 0:20:51.756 Wow, so you were totally catastrophizing, almost in an irrational way, 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:58.716 right your brain? Yeah, full on rumination OCD yes, intrusive thoughts. 0:20:59.036 --> 0:21:00.916 Oh, absolutely, Yeah. 0:21:00.956 --> 0:21:03.836 What did you decide to do now that you felt 0:21:03.836 --> 0:21:08.116 you had reverted back to old Helena with old Helena's 0:21:08.356 --> 0:21:13.156 preferences but actually magnified because of all the anxiety and 0:21:13.196 --> 0:21:14.436 all of the intrusive thoughts. 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:19.116 Yeah, I don't think i've I've ever been as terrifying, 0:21:19.956 --> 0:21:27.236 because it's like before, when I was just thinking about it, 0:21:27.316 --> 0:21:30.756 right before I was pregnant, it was like I don't 0:21:30.836 --> 0:21:32.716 want to have a kid, you know, it was about me, 0:21:34.956 --> 0:21:39.596 But now I was so acutely aware of my decision 0:21:39.916 --> 0:21:44.836 will affect not just me but this new person. Yes, 0:21:44.996 --> 0:21:47.356 am I equipped? Yeah? You know this feeling of like, 0:21:47.396 --> 0:21:50.316 oh I'm capable right, Like my feet are so firmly 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:52.916 planted in this oil. I can take care of this 0:21:52.996 --> 0:21:56.836 kid that was gone. And I felt my own powerlessness 0:21:57.396 --> 0:22:01.956 to protect them. Yeah, and I really thought this is, 0:22:05.996 --> 0:22:12.676 you know how like I'm always so when something terrible happens, 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:19.076 whether that is like a grandparent dying or you know, 0:22:19.916 --> 0:22:24.356 war being declared. But then you see the parents how 0:22:24.396 --> 0:22:28.156 they try to shield their kids, and if they cannot 0:22:28.196 --> 0:22:33.796 shield them, still try and create a little pocket of normalcy, 0:22:33.916 --> 0:22:39.396 Like parents swallow their own fears and repress their tears 0:22:40.036 --> 0:22:44.636 so that they might give a safe pocket for their kid. 0:22:45.396 --> 0:22:51.156 And I felt incapable of doing that. I thought, I 0:22:51.196 --> 0:22:55.676 am terrified myself. I will not be able to repress 0:22:55.756 --> 0:22:59.156 my fear so that I can make sure my child 0:22:59.196 --> 0:23:01.396 is not afraid. I'm not going to be able to 0:23:01.436 --> 0:23:04.316 do that. And a child deserves better than that. A 0:23:04.396 --> 0:23:09.476 child deserves a parent who can protect them. So I 0:23:09.556 --> 0:23:13.836 decided to have an abortion. And I had such mixed feelings, 0:23:13.876 --> 0:23:19.316 you know, about having an abortion myself. It really wasn't 0:23:19.356 --> 0:23:27.316 something I did lightly, and especially because I knew how 0:23:27.396 --> 0:23:29.716 much it would hurt David. 0:23:31.036 --> 0:23:33.116 Yeah, I mean it's so interesting, as you know, I 0:23:33.676 --> 0:23:35.756 have a whole chapter at the end of my book 0:23:35.796 --> 0:23:39.076 devoted to my own journey toward motherhood and then slightly 0:23:39.076 --> 0:23:42.676 away from motherhood, and in all of the complexities, and 0:23:43.956 --> 0:23:48.236 I I do think society tells us we should always 0:23:48.276 --> 0:23:51.876 try to conquer our fears, and I think there are 0:23:52.916 --> 0:23:58.876 truly limits on that. And I just I just think 0:23:58.876 --> 0:24:06.756 that fear is instructive. Right, Your fears were valid and instructive, 0:24:06.796 --> 0:24:10.396 they were saying, Helena, I have history of depression. I'm 0:24:10.396 --> 0:24:15.236 having acute anxiety. I'm not sure that I have the 0:24:15.316 --> 0:24:20.436 right emotional constitution to be a parent. And I think 0:24:20.476 --> 0:24:24.796 there is actually something deeply brave in surrendering to that 0:24:24.876 --> 0:24:28.996 reality rather than resisting it, given how strong the forces 0:24:28.996 --> 0:24:37.716 are to try and quote conquer it, resist it. So yeah, 0:24:37.756 --> 0:24:42.596 I just want to say, like the the recognition of 0:24:42.636 --> 0:24:47.076 one's own limits is another form of bravery. Maybe that's 0:24:47.076 --> 0:24:49.876 what I'm trying to say. 0:24:49.916 --> 0:24:54.836 It's so moving to hear you say that. No one 0:24:54.836 --> 0:24:58.556 has ever put it like that, and I definitely have 0:24:58.636 --> 0:25:02.276 never thought that. I've always seen it as a version 0:25:02.316 --> 0:25:10.436 of capitulating, of giving up. But you know it's so 0:25:10.596 --> 0:25:15.596 often said, right, well, what if you had a physical disability, 0:25:16.276 --> 0:25:20.276 like what if you had Huntington's disease? Would you chastise 0:25:20.356 --> 0:25:22.676 yourself in the same way? Would you be like, oh, 0:25:22.876 --> 0:25:25.236 it's just you know, if only you wouldn't give up, 0:25:25.356 --> 0:25:25.676 you know. 0:25:26.116 --> 0:25:30.996 Yeah, if you were missing a uterus, you wouldn't engage 0:25:31.036 --> 0:25:32.596 in the kind of self puration. I just think we 0:25:32.676 --> 0:25:37.236 have an unfair standard when things creep into the psychological, 0:25:37.956 --> 0:25:40.996 then we think, oh, it's a totally malleable space. You 0:25:41.036 --> 0:25:43.756 can fully control your thoughts, you can fully overcome this, 0:25:43.756 --> 0:25:49.676 this is a workable problem. Psychology is biology. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:25:49.716 --> 0:25:52.316 there's constraints, and I just. 0:25:52.316 --> 0:25:59.396 Feel like, wow, if your mind can be so reality shaping, 0:26:01.156 --> 0:26:05.116 that is reality. Even if it's not other people's reality, 0:26:05.196 --> 0:26:06.076 it is for you. 0:26:06.756 --> 0:26:13.996 Yeah. How did David respond to your decision to terminate 0:26:14.036 --> 0:26:14.636 the pregnancy. 0:26:15.836 --> 0:26:21.476 David is not someone who talks about his feelings a lot. 0:26:21.836 --> 0:26:23.756 I mean he will tell me like I want to 0:26:23.756 --> 0:26:26.556 have a child, but there's not like that deep introspection. 0:26:27.916 --> 0:26:37.036 And so I could see that he was struggling. I 0:26:37.076 --> 0:26:41.596 could see that, you know, he wasn't eating properly anymore, 0:26:42.036 --> 0:26:44.876 and he wasn't like he's usually like always ready for 0:26:44.916 --> 0:26:48.796 an adventure, you know, very kind of embodied, you know, 0:26:48.876 --> 0:26:51.516 would always be like on his bike or surfing or 0:26:51.556 --> 0:26:57.756 you know, just so full of joy and you know, 0:26:58.196 --> 0:27:02.916