1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you? 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: I'm doctor and Zana Harrison, and in season four of 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: Unaddictioned Podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped. 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 2: By their identities. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms, 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help 8 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: you or a loved one find recovery too. 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 3: We did, and yeah we went to Susoul. 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: That's amazing. 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: Look at Unaddictioned podcast bringing people together. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 3: I know, I know, I wish you would have been there, 13 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 3: you would have had time. And honestly, Chef Gregory's shit 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 3: is poppin'. 15 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Yes, you know you need to send him a picture 16 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: of you and Jessica in the spot. 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 3: I know, y'all. 18 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: Look, I mean just the environment looks so amazing. The food, 19 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: I was like, I need this food. 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 3: Yeah you do for real? Like it's all you know, 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:22,680 Speaker 3: like Haiti inspired, So fucking good. How are You's your weekend? 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: Good? 23 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 2: Let me think, let me see what happened. 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I had zzkk adventure day. So I don't 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: know if I told you with my nieces for their 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: birthday every year. What they get isn't adventure Day with 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: zz I picked them up in the morning, we go 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: do like fun stuff all day, spend the night in 29 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: a hotel, eat breakfast, and then take them home. So 30 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: their birthdays are back in April and May. It took 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: me until this long, dang it. So Kk is fourteen. 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: She turned fourteen in April. So we had zzkk Adventure 33 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: Day on Saturday. So we went to Golden Corral and 34 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: stuffed ourselves and then went go karting and sevent y 35 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: and virtual reality and laser tag, and then went and 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: walked around Battery Park and then went to a video 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 1: game restaurant and then watched her band videos all night 38 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: and stayed in the hotel and then eight Cracker Barrel 39 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: and then came home. It was amazing because she's fourteen, 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, tell me all the tea 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: on everybody at school, and then she was just like 42 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: telling me everything. 43 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 2: It's great. 44 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 3: What is your What is the number one thing you 45 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: look forward to when you go to a buffet? 46 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: The bread? 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 3: The bread? 48 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, you don't have to be all judgy. 49 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: You asked you asked. 50 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: I answered okay, and then you were like judge E 51 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: Mcjudgerson because I said the bread, yeah, the buttery, sweet 52 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: yeast rolls. 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: This response is follow by the salad bar. 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: Not a judgment on your choices. I just like it 55 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: never occurred. 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 2: It's like. 57 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 3: I didn't know there was bread at a buffet. 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 2: Oh my god. 59 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: Buffets have like the best fresh baked bad selection. 60 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: Yes there's more than just rolls usually, but. 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: At Golden Corral specifically their rolls and then their uven 62 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: baked sweet potatoes and their salad bar. 63 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: I love all their vegetables. I eat the meat, but 64 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 2: I mostly go for the rolls. Okay, yeah, now you know. 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: Now that tells you a bit about me. 66 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 3: Uh and Zuga loves bread. 67 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Everybody ocean to disclose. 68 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: We gotta rose. 69 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: We got a breadhead in the house. 70 00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: We didn't plan on this, but it just came out. 71 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 1: Gat Yeah everybody and my family will tell you. And 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: first of all, I don't even like all you can 73 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: eat buffets because I cannot eat a lot, so I 74 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: never get my money. It's worth like I can't eat 75 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: a lot in one setting. Yeah, I eat multiple times 76 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: throughout the day. Smaller portions and so like at a buffet, 77 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm always wasting money, but that's fine. 78 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: That one plate, That one plate is good. 79 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: One plate is fine, and then you like feel compelled 80 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: to go get some more just because you paid for 81 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: all you can eat. Yeah, I'm like this plate, but 82 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: I always get a cold plate a hot plate, and. 83 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 2: That's my strategy. All right, Well, should we. 84 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: Start this episode even though that might be the start 85 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: of the episode. 86 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's fucking go. 87 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: All right, So, welcome to un addiction I'm super excited 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: because this is unusual. You've heard Jada, probably only a 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: couple of times, but Jada's the mastermind behind bringing the 90 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: Unaddictioned podcast to you. 91 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: She's our producer. 92 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Mostly off air, and Jada and I would have the 93 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:24,040 Speaker 1: most amazing before and after conversations with each episode, or 94 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: if we were taping intros and outros, and I was like, Jada, 95 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: your perspective is incredible, and what do you think about 96 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: being on air and sharing your story as part of 97 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: season four Black and Brown? 98 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 2: And she was like, hell, yeah, doesn't that sound like you? 99 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: That impression it was on? Thank you, Thank you very much. 100 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, practice practice. So welcome Jada to an addiction as 101 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: a guest. 102 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: Thank you, this is fun. 103 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 1: Well, why don't we start out the same way we 104 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 1: always start out, except I don't have to tell you 105 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: what the podcast is about. 106 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 2: Why don't you tell our listeners? Who is Jada and 107 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 2: what is your recovery experience? 108 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: I am. I knew this question is coming, and I've 109 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 3: been literally thinking about it for like three days street 110 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 3: and I think the short answer and long answer is 111 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 3: I am literally figuring it out. So twenty twenty, I 112 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 3: am still I think I would say literally like actively 113 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 3: recovering from those events. It really did a number to 114 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 3: my up here, you know, and. 115 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: What have been specifically Jada, because lots happened in twenty twenty. 116 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, So my experience of that was it felt very 117 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: I felt very numb, and partially because it was overwhelming. 118 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: I didn't know where to be or how to be. 119 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 3: And that's like, you know, that was like common I 120 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 3: think for everybody. What I felt I saw was people 121 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 3: grasping for something to help them decide how to move forward. 122 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 3: And I think that I did all those things, like 123 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 3: just doing Oh god, it feels so awkward talking about 124 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 3: this because we're like out of it, right, But. 125 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you're out of it. Sounds like 126 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: you might still be in it. 127 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 3: Well physically out of it. 128 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 129 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: So you know, like taking different classes that you would 130 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 3: never that you would never think about, were like being 131 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 3: accessible online. I think I did, like a tap like 132 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 3: a tap. 133 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: Class, a tap dancer. 134 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: You know, yeah, I know, I know. It was very hard. 135 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 3: It was so fucking hard, but yeah, you know, it 136 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 3: was like a tie. It was like a vortex and 137 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 3: a vacuum at the same time. It was like on 138 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 3: the one hand, you kind of you had like the 139 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 3: freedom to explore so much, but on the other hand, 140 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: it was that freedom was like at the expense of 141 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 3: like other so of like liberties I guess of like traveling, 142 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: going outside, having community connections, blah blah blah. So I 143 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 3: did that. I was drinking a shit ton of alcohol there. 144 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 3: I think that was like the most That was like 145 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 3: kind of what I landed on of like this is 146 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: how I'm going to move forward. And it wasn't that 147 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: was different. No, No, that's what I was about to say. 148 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: It was like it was a shit ton, but it 149 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 3: wasn't like a shit ton more than usual. It was 150 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 3: a shit ton in like respect to you know, if 151 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: there was like a scale of things that I was 152 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 3: doing in the day, looking after myself or like caring 153 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: for myself was like way up here, and you know, 154 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,959 Speaker 3: and then like the things that I was engaging in 155 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 3: that just like gave me a one second of escape 156 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: were very you know, outweighed pretty much everything else. So 157 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 3: at the time, I was working this job that I 158 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: really liked, and there were some things happening and being 159 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 3: said it was a co working space. 160 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: And. 161 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: Things being said by people not in our company. You know, 162 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: it was close to downtown where the George Floyd stuff 163 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: was happening, the marches and that those kinds of things. 164 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: Asian people were getting fucking beat up, you know, all 165 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 3: of this like the racial sort of like tension, and 166 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 3: these guys were just like saying some like fucking stupid. 167 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 3: It was basically like anti Chinese whatever remarks. I was no, 168 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 3: not at me. I I was like it was like 169 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 3: they were just like standing around talking as you do 170 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:17,440 Speaker 3: in co workspaces and just like shooting the ship. But 171 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 3: it was very triggering, and it was the response or 172 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 3: like my my feeling activated was very was already kind 173 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: of like half cocks you know, because of everything that 174 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: was going on. Had I been this version of myself 175 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: and gone back and had that experience, it would have 176 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 3: been completely different. 177 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: I would have happened what happened to the Jada on 178 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: that day. 179 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: I was like, I have to quit my job because 180 00:11:54,400 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: my bosses are fucking racist. And one of them was 181 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 3: standing there and he didn't say anything. He wasn't like, hey, 182 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: that's like a little bit inappropriate. He just kind of 183 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 3: like laughed it off and walked away. And I saw that, 184 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, you're a fucking racist. 185 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 3: I don't think that's the case necessarily, Like my emotional 186 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: response did not match the what was going on. 187 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: M h. But at the time, at the time, what 188 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: you needed was for him to be an upstander, not 189 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: a passive participant. Yes, and so he didn't stand up 190 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: in any way, and so that was very injurious. Yes, 191 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: And then you feel like, even though that injury is valid, 192 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: your reaction was bigger than it, let's say, had to be. 193 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, So I quit my job. And 194 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 3: at first I was like, yes, you know, I was 195 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: like feeling so fucking free. This was like spring of 196 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one, and I'm like yes, you know, this 197 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 3: is creating space for something more aligned. And I probably 198 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 3: sent out, you know, between seventy five and one hundred 199 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: resumes or applications or whatever and was not getting hired. 200 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 3: And it was I was like, oh my god, I 201 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 3: think I peaked, Like I think I peaked in my life, 202 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 3: and you know, catastrophizing and basically having this narrative of 203 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: the absolute worst case scenario, like it makes me emotional 204 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 3: because I was taking on the responsibility of circumstances that were, 205 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 3: you know, outside of my control, and I thought that 206 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 3: I did something wrong That lasted for a while, like 207 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,560 Speaker 3: basically up until you and I met that kind of 208 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 3: like period of time. 209 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: Where you were. 210 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: In this kind of castastrophic I have done something wrong 211 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: type of energy pointed towards yourself, yes, and drinking a 212 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: shit ton. 213 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. I kind of like leveled out a little bit 214 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: because I didn't have a job and I couldn't afford it. 215 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: It was, you know, I was definitely using it as 216 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: a coping mechanism during lockdown and through the pandemic up 217 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 3: to a point and then it kind of I kind 218 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 3: of like leveled out because I was sensing this, you know, 219 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: I've always gone through sort of like ebbs and flows 220 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 3: of stuff. So like like when I was like partying 221 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: super hard, it would be like party really hard for 222 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: a couple of days or whatever, and then like try 223 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 3: to back off or something like that after for like 224 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: a couple of days, and then party really hard again 225 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 3: the next weekend. And that lasted for a few years, 226 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: maybe like five five ish or six ish maybe, and 227 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: then I would have these like spurts of like, uh, 228 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 3: I cannot look at or touch or think about another 229 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: thing that I put in my body ever again. And 230 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 3: those times felt like the beginning of something really important 231 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: or something I started seeing my current therapist. I moved 232 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 3: out of I moved out of Denver. I lived there 233 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 3: for twenty years. I moved out, and at the time 234 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 3: I was like, I'm just doing something new, but only 235 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: in retrospect, I was like absolutely trying to run away 236 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 3: from something because I had just like come to this 237 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 3: point where I felt like everything I touched turned to shit. 238 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 3: So I know that people that we've had on the 239 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: podcast have maybe alluded to, you know, this thing of 240 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 3: changing your location or your geography in order to like 241 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 3: have those changes be the changes that you've needed to 242 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 3: fix your life or whatever. I was an absolute denial. 243 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 3: I was like, no, I'm just like I'm over that city, 244 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 3: I'm over that weather, I'm over whatever, like very arbitrary 245 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 3: thing about it. And I really like believed believed that 246 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 3: for a long time. But I started seeing my current 247 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 3: therapist in like March of twenty twenty two, when I 248 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 3: moved out here to Oregon. Within a couple months of 249 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 3: seeing them, I kind of like described, you know why 250 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 3: I was why. I was like seeking support. I was like, look, 251 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 3: my life feels like garbage and I don't know what 252 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 3: to do about it. And we were talking about the 253 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 3: events of twenty twenty and she basically was like, I 254 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 3: think that you. I think that we need to go 255 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 3: down this path of like a CPTSD framework because there 256 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 3: are it sounds like there are events that occurred that 257 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: basically like triggered so many things in your childhood. 258 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, so, first of all, tell us what CPTSD framework 259 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 4: is for our listeners who might be connecting to your story. 260 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: So far, it's. 261 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: Complex PTSD And if whatever, any of these things that 262 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 3: I say are inaccurate, will you correct me? 263 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, okay. 264 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,199 Speaker 3: But so PTSD would be things like I went to 265 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 3: war or I was sexually assaulted, very big, singular experiences 266 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 3: that cause trauma. CPTSD is more, I'm not gonna say smaller, 267 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 3: but let's say, let's say like less significant through the 268 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 3: lens of our society and culture. Like they are quote 269 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: unquote smaller things that happen more frequently over time. Using 270 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 3: myself as an example, my parents, they would spank me, 271 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: and then the there was no like repair. 272 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 2: Process. 273 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 3: So it was like I did something wrong, I would 274 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: be hit for it and then and then there would 275 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 3: be no like attunement one of my parents coming over 276 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 3: to me like maybe comforting me or I'm still honestly 277 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 3: like learning what that could have possibly been. But I 278 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,239 Speaker 3: do something wrong, I get punished for it, and then 279 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: I am expected to like basically pretend like everything is 280 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 3: okay and like keep it moving if there are people 281 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 3: listening who are curious about this CPTSD shit. Stephanie Fu 282 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: she used to be a producer on NPR for MPR. 283 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 3: She wrote a memoir called What My Bones Know, and 284 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: this is a memoir about her CPTSD experience. Her experiences, 285 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 3: I would say, are categorically just very different. So things 286 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 3: like her parents would threaten to kill her basically over 287 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 3: and over again, or like either verbally or with an 288 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 3: action like overtly like I'm gonna fucking kill you, or 289 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 3: like I think there was one time she got in 290 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 3: a car and with her dad and like he was 291 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 3: driving off fucking crazy, you know, and she didn't know 292 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 3: she was gonna like live. So things that happened continuously 293 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 3: where you start to begin to write this narrative for 294 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 3: yourself beliefs around those actions that happened. 295 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: So my. 296 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 3: Mine were like I don't deserve support. It's better if 297 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 3: I am not seen, you know, like being small is 298 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: safe and good stuff like that. 299 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: You're really just describing some nothing to correct. The initial 300 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: kind of concept that we all call it medical establishment 301 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: had of PTSD was exactly what you said, like these 302 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: big catastrophic I went to war, I experienced a rape, 303 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: I was in a natural disaster. And now SAMSA gives 304 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 1: us a definition of trauma that is the three e's 305 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,719 Speaker 1: and the three e's are an event or series of 306 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: events that is experienced as harmful and has negative lasting 307 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: effects physically, emotionally, psychologically, socially, and so the complex PTSD 308 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: framework uses that broader definition of trauma to understand that 309 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: we don't get from the outside to define what trauma 310 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: is for a person because it depends on their experience 311 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: and it depends on the negative lasting effects in all 312 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: of those different domains, and so a lot of people 313 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: don't recognize. We talk about it in the book An 314 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: Addiction through the lens of Aces, adverse childhood experiences, which 315 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: is really part of what you're describing here in those 316 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: formative years that then not only set up these narratives 317 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: for you, is better not to be seen, It's better 318 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: to be small. And really maybe even the word other 319 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: than better is safer there, right, Like safer not to 320 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: be seen, safer to be small, safer to be silent, 321 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: not only sets up those narratives that then begin to 322 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: drive the output choices and quotes that you make in life, 323 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: because so much of our choices. So my camera just 324 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 1: threw up balloons when I said choices. So that's why 325 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 1: data laughing. It was like very not contextually appropriate to 326 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: send up balloons, and. 327 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 2: Yes, it's crazy. 328 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: Also changes your brain, right, it changes your brain, It 329 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: changes your your physiology through your body, and this honestly 330 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: sets you up when something as big as COVID comes, 331 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: as big as George Floyd's murder comes. Your resilience has 332 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 1: been whittled away by those childhood experiences, right, and so 333 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: sets you up for that moment at the water cooler 334 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: where you quit your job running but taking yourself with 335 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: you and taking that whole childhood with you. So you 336 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: get in front of this therapist, you start working in 337 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: this complex PTSD framework, and then what God, what leads 338 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: you to saying yeah, come on addiction podcast? 339 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah. So there are so many answers to 340 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 3: this question. I feel like part of I I want 341 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 3: wanted to be sitting here was to talk about or 342 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 3: recognize an aspect of religious based trauma on people who 343 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 3: are you know, have been displaced or have been in 344 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 3: the foster care system or in my case adopted I 345 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 3: like to say, legally trafficked. And how like there was 346 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 3: a perfect storm I guess of situations and behaviors and 347 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 3: you know, dynamics in like the most important relationships. 348 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: Where meaning the relationship with you, your. 349 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,119 Speaker 3: Parents, my parents, and my family, yeah, your family. The 350 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,719 Speaker 3: I want to say, like it happened, It kind of 351 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 3: like clicked later in my life, like I did, like 352 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 3: I did start drinking when I was in high school, 353 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 3: but it didn't like really it didn't feel the best 354 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 3: until I was probably in my like twenties or thirties. 355 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 2: And the best is defined how in. 356 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: My I would define it as. 357 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: It was. 358 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 3: A just like feeling nothing. 359 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: It was feeling nothing, So removing all of those feelings 360 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: bad that are constantly around to a feeling nothing. 361 00:25:53,240 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 3: Yes, and doing that in a basically like a community 362 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 3: of people who I mean, the the sort of like 363 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 3: rave party scene I think thrives because there is a 364 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 3: level a certain level of community there. 365 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: For sure, and. 366 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: Community and lack of judgment community lack of lack of. 367 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: Being judged is what I mean. 368 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: Lack of judgment absolutely, that's in fact, like I would say, 369 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 3: maybe like the core principle of like the roots you 370 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 3: know of the RAM scene is like we can all 371 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 3: gather and we can all be together and it doesn't 372 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 3: matter who you are. 373 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 2: Acceptance and belonging unconditionally. 374 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 3: Yes, in many ways, like it felt like what church 375 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 3: should have felt like. So I'm bringing that up to say, 376 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 3: after establishing a CPTSD framework with my individual therapist, what 377 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 3: we started working on and are still working on and 378 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 3: we'll probably still be working on for a really long time. 379 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 3: Is honestly like sitting with my feelings, having my feelings, 380 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 3: feeling my feelings, and recognizing that they mean something like 381 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 3: they're I'm told trying to tell me something. 382 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. Information. 383 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 3: Yes, So along with the CPTSD stuff, we're also doing 384 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 3: some internal family systems. So it's really just like, you know, 385 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: feelings come up and it's like, uh, where are these 386 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 3: coming from? And what are they saying? And you know, 387 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 3: taking that part of me that is having that feeling 388 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: seriously instead of judging it or suppressing it or shaming 389 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 3: it away. 390 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, so one recognizing the feeling, Two where is it 391 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: coming from? 392 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 2: Three what is it trying to tell me? 393 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: For validating it, it is real, it is based in something. 394 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: It is trying to tell me something, and what do 395 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: I do with it? It also seems like part of 396 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: this work with your therapist is helping it be safe 397 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: for you to feel those emotions because you have some 398 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: skills about what to do with them, as opposed to 399 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 1: needing to drink them to nothing. 400 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 3: Yes, there is a large part of my work, my 401 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 3: personal work, that has to do with like just managing 402 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 3: my feelings. But also, you know, making space to be 403 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 3: curious about them and what it takes to be able 404 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 3: to allow myself to feel curiosity versus discussed. 405 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: Or I think so anyone who has read the book 406 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: or who hasn't, obviously please pick up the book. The 407 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: framework that we lay out in an addiction is really 408 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: like how our childhoods create risk for us as it 409 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: relates to substance huse disorders. And you're really talking about 410 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: that inherited psychological pillar, right like the childhood you were 411 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: born into and those experiences that you had. But we 412 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: also talk about in the acquired environmental and this is 413 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: why season four is black and brown, because the experiences 414 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: of being black and brown in this country really can 415 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: be a risk factor for developing substance use disorders. And 416 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: it's all about what you said about the rave scene, 417 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 1: that judgment, that discrimination, that lack of belonging, that lack 418 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: of acceptance that we put on so many different types 419 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: of group i'll call it here in the country. 420 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 2: And what I love about your story that you're. 421 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: Sharing data is that this is not typically the pathway 422 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 1: people think about to recovery. So you didn't move Denver 423 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: and say I'm drinking too much. I'm going to find 424 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: someone to help me stop drinking. And yet it has 425 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: been a pathway that has led you to be able 426 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: to look at what role was drinking playing in your 427 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: life and make choices about the role that you want 428 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: drinking to pay in your life, and so play in 429 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: your life, not pay in your life. And so this 430 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: is kind of getting into that magic formula part of 431 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: the book, which is like, once you start to have 432 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: awareness of your inherited biological psychological environmental risk factors, and 433 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: you're acquired biological psychological environmental risk factors. And I will 434 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: say being adopted is an acquired risk factor for you. 435 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,040 Speaker 1: Sounds like the church you grew up in, the religion 436 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: you grew up in, sounds like an acquired risk factor 437 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: for you. 438 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: Evangelical Christianity to be specific. I know there are especially 439 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 3: you know, black church. Black Christianity is totally completely different 440 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 3: the way that white supremacy and you know, Christian nationalism 441 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 3: is a mix of things of two things that benefit 442 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 3: one another. And when you are the only not white 443 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 3: person in a stiff, boring beauty like like my my 444 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 3: religion growing up lacked beauty, It lacked heartfelt expression of 445 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 3: whatever Jesus and God to end things like that are 446 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 3: supposed to give you. I went to a Christian college, 447 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 3: and yes, there were. You could count on like one 448 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 3: or two hands the number of black people at that 449 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 3: college and one hand the number of Asian people at 450 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 3: that college. So when I say that, like I had 451 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 3: a black friend in college, like, it's literally because there 452 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 3: weren't very there were too many. Yeah, one of them 453 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: was your friend exactly. So we have had like conversations 454 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: around you know, I'm like, how how are you still 455 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 3: a part of this? And you know, basically she was like, 456 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 3: it's not what you think actually, Like it's way fucking different. 457 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 3: It's different from your thing like that you grew up in. 458 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 3: So so I I want to be specific, like it's 459 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 3: evangelical Christianity and it's not all church, Like, it's not 460 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 3: all Christianity. It just happened to be this one. And 461 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 3: I think it's the one where the most people are 462 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 3: walking away. Like I talked to a lot of people 463 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 3: on like a monthly basis. I'll say, who I find 464 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 3: out like they were raised in evangelical Christianity and they're 465 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 3: no longer religious, Like. 466 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: And children are born into the religion of their parents, 467 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: right and into the religious traditions of their parents or 468 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: adopted into. And I think this word you used earlier, 469 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 1: of displacement is a really important word because it sounds 470 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: like even all the way through, correct me if I'm 471 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 1: hearing it wrong, until you found the rave scene is 472 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: like a persistent experience of being in spaces where it 473 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: didn't feel like you belonged, even at home. 474 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I mean this is this is the. 475 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: Magic formula of trauma of childhood travel right, Like a persistent, 476 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: deep sense of not belonging in what feels like all 477 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: aspects of life is really damaging. And so how are 478 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: you now then, just because time is flying, because that's 479 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: what happens when the conversation is good, how then are 480 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 1: you finding your sense of belonging these days? 481 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,319 Speaker 2: And how is that part of what you would call? 482 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: I guess also, let's just ask that question, what would 483 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: you call the definition of recovery that you have developed 484 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: or are developing for yourself? 485 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: And what role is belonging playing in that? 486 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 4: For you? 487 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: Absence from alcohol definitely means a lot, and not because 488 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 3: of what it looks like. It's purely like I'm about 489 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 3: to be I'm turning thirty nine in four days. 490 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 2: You have the same birthday as my mother, November eighth. 491 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: No way, Oh my god, Happy birthday your mom. 492 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 2: Thanks, Happy birthday your jadaf. Thank you. 493 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: Like I'm turning thirty nine. Uh, the reason why I 494 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 3: stopped drinking literally was because of a weird, crazy like 495 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 3: thing that happened. 496 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: Well, I want to know this weird crazy thing if 497 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: you can share it, no pressure. 498 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:50,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. So I had gone to bed after probably 499 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 3: like several drinks, and I woke up kind of like 500 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 3: in the middle of the night and my heart was 501 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: racing faster than I've ever felt it race. It was 502 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 3: a different it was a feeling I've never felt before. 503 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 3: I was nauseous, and uh, it was just really alarming, 504 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 3: and I like immediately knew because I don't think I 505 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 3: have any chronic disease, Like last time I went to 506 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 3: the doctor, I as a result of of being adopted. 507 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 3: I don't have any history on like my any sort 508 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 3: of like genetic anything, so they I do have a 509 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:42,879 Speaker 3: fear of like medical institutions as as far back as 510 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 3: when I was a kid, like I grew up in 511 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 3: a county in north central Kansas where the like the 512 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 3: senior citizen population per capita was like the highest in 513 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 3: I don't know the state or something like that. So 514 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:05,040 Speaker 3: everybody around me was old and dying constantly. And I 515 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 3: remember as like before I was a teenager, I was like, 516 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:14,480 Speaker 3: I think I'm dying of cancer. So my relationship with 517 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 3: my body and my health is like has been a 518 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 3: complicated one. Yeah, but I woke up and I was like, 519 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 3: I know exactly why this is happening. I don't know 520 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 3: what's happening, but I would love it to not happen 521 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 3: again because I don't want to spend time in a 522 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 3: fucking hospital. The abstinence is just a sort of It 523 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 3: creates space, That's all it does. It creates space and 524 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 3: it creates time, and it allows me the energy to 525 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 3: explore ways of finding belonging. For instance, I am I 526 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 3: go to the often. It's purely for my mental health. 527 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 3: I started because you know, I'm like, I'm not drinking, 528 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 3: I'm not like smoking weeds so much. I need something 529 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 3: to help me sleep. And I realize that I have 530 00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 3: a body type or whatever, like I just need to 531 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 3: like literally like run until I'm tired, or like work 532 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 3: until I'm tired. Or like do something to wear myself out. 533 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: So I've known that for quite a while, but it's 534 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 3: just it's way easier to just like get a little 535 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 3: bit like slightly wasted and sort of just like go 536 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 3: to sleep. My relationship to my I'm just gonna say, 537 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 3: like wellness, like well being or health has is like 538 00:38:54,719 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 3: number one relationship in my life. So I'm still in 539 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 3: the process of trying to figure out what offers me 540 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 3: the feeling of belonging. But things that I've discovered along 541 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 3: the way are, you know, like hang out with people 542 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 3: like new people need to be based around an activity. 543 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 3: They don't need to be based around an activity, but 544 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 3: it really helps otherwise. It helps me form connections and 545 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 3: feel bonded. So that's something that I can apply to 546 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 3: anybody or anything. If I am feeling like I need 547 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 3: to feel connected to somebody, I can be like not 548 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 3: just like I need to call you and vent or 549 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,560 Speaker 3: whatever like that doesn't really help. I really need irl 550 00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 3: hangouts where. 551 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: Some thing experiencing Yes, yes, yeah, no, it's super insightful. 552 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: So what I love and I'm going to use this 553 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,919 Speaker 1: to get us to round it out what I love 554 00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: the common what I think is for many people mistaken 555 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: concept of recovery is that abstinence from the fill in 556 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,879 Speaker 1: the blank is the destination and it's the end, right, 557 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 1: And the way you just described it is as the 558 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: means to the destination, which for you is health and 559 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: well being. And I think if we start thinking about 560 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: which is not an American perspective at all, but this 561 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: is my soapbox to try to get it to become, 562 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: is health as the presence of filling the blank rather 563 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: than health as the absence of right, So health is 564 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: the absence of addiction, Health is the absence of alcohol, 565 00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 1: Health is the absence of cancer, Health is the absence 566 00:40:58,120 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: of symptoms. 567 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 2: Right, What is health the presence. 568 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: Of And you're learning about yourself that health is the 569 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: presence of meaningful activities with other people in real life 570 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: that lead to a sense of connection and belonging and 571 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,320 Speaker 1: therefore well being. And so you won't have a magic formula. 572 00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,759 Speaker 1: It's a million ways to do that, right, But you 573 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,919 Speaker 1: could be completely abstinent of everything else and all lover 574 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: symptoms and by the medical chart, completely healthy, but without 575 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: the presence of that meaningful activity in real life with 576 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: people that allows you connection, which drives a sense of belonging, 577 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: you wouldn't have health, And so I just like hope 578 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: people will take that from your story and start figuring 579 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: out what for them health is the presence of what. 580 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: And maybe it is that the absence of a substance 581 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: creates space for you to pursue the presence of what 582 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: defines well being for you. 583 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 2: I thought that was really beautiful. 584 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:14,320 Speaker 3: To bring it full circle. It really is the presence 585 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 3: of pleasure in certain aspects, and that is something that 586 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 3: I have been programmed to reject thanks to the church 587 00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 3: since I since I can remember. It can be a 588 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 3: mind fuck sometimes, like when pleasure becomes the thing that 589 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 3: is like helping me or fixing me. I'm just gonna 590 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 3: say fixing, like I'm saying that kind of in a 591 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 3: cheeky way, but like when that's the solution, it really 592 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,799 Speaker 3: is a matter of being like why am I rejecting this? 593 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 2: You know? 594 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 3: Why am I avoiding this? And then kind of like 595 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 3: comp and it gives me agency. So being forced to 596 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,880 Speaker 3: being forced into abstinence, like is no way to feel 597 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 3: full in your life in my life, I guess, And 598 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 3: to your point, like, yeah, I can be doing the 599 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 3: most healthy behaviors, but if there isn't some essence of 600 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 3: pleasure of uh, you know, having pleasurable experiences with others? 601 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,960 Speaker 3: It is it still sucks. 602 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, So. 603 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:42,319 Speaker 1: I think let's close it out with the question we 604 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: always close it out with, which you already know what 605 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:50,520 Speaker 1: it is. What do you want to leave our listeners with? 606 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: So an addiction is a word that we made up. 607 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,600 Speaker 1: What are the stigmas we want to undo that are 608 00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: killing people? What are the things we want to unlearn 609 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: that we think we know that are actually harmful? What 610 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: are the conversations we want to uncover? So what on 611 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,320 Speaker 1: do you want to leave our un addiction listeners with today? 612 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 3: Uncovering conversations? And it doesn't even have to be explicitly about, 613 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 3: you know, kind of like an interventionist style of like, hey, 614 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,480 Speaker 3: I noticed that you have like two fucking bottles of 615 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 3: wine at dinner, Like are you fucking okay? It can 616 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 3: be just conversations around and I think that we're doing 617 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:44,319 Speaker 3: this really well. Black and brown communities are doing this 618 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 3: really well, and you know, it's being rejected by internalized 619 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 3: homophobia or internalized you knowophobia, or internalized white supremacy of like, 620 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 3: don't talk about that because it goes against like all 621 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,000 Speaker 3: of our American principles or whatever. So one of the 622 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:11,520 Speaker 3: conversations that we're that the adoptee community is having is 623 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 3: around abolishing adoption, and that brings up a lot of 624 00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,440 Speaker 3: questions around oh, like you know, this is an option 625 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 3: though for people who really do want to not be 626 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 3: parents anymore or whatever, but it is you know, it's 627 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 3: like you're not gonna you're not gonna find what is 628 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 3: underneath things until you are brave enough to break that ground. 629 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,680 Speaker 3: Like if nobody else has done it, that doesn't mean 630 00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:49,240 Speaker 3: it shouldn't be done. And I really respect and honor 631 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,360 Speaker 3: the people who have been having the first conversations around 632 00:45:55,440 --> 00:46:02,000 Speaker 3: things because there is so much to learn and we 633 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,640 Speaker 3: have to catch up to the needs our like modern needs. 634 00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:13,240 Speaker 3: You know, the solutions that exist are outdated. Even within 635 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,880 Speaker 3: the adoptee community. There are so many different experiences. They're 636 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:22,759 Speaker 3: not all like terrible. Some people have incredible experiences, but 637 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 3: you know, having uncovering these conversations, uncovering curiosities within yourself, 638 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,319 Speaker 3: Like for me, it was like, oh, this behavior, this 639 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 3: activity that has actually been really honestly probably killing me. 640 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 3: It serves a purpose. What is the purpose and how 641 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:50,240 Speaker 3: can I do the same thing with different tools. 642 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 2: I love it. I love it, Thank you Jada. So 643 00:46:55,360 --> 00:47:01,040 Speaker 2: I love that this episode is going to. 644 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,360 Speaker 1: Be a place where adoptees can see themselves, because I 645 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: think that's uncommon unless you're, like specifically at some adoptee 646 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: resource page or situation. 647 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,080 Speaker 2: So I love that obviously. 648 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 1: For our brown and black people, for our Asian people, 649 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,440 Speaker 1: specifically for our folks in Kansas. 650 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 2: Just kidding, I how to throw a choke in there 651 00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,719 Speaker 2: and lighten it up. But I love this. I love this. 652 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: So I think I would sum it up by saying, 653 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: I heard your magic formula come down to at least 654 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:42,800 Speaker 1: three things, not necessarily only three things, but curiosity, connection, 655 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:51,160 Speaker 1: m and pleasure as must three must three ingredients for 656 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:57,520 Speaker 1: Jada's health and well being. Yeah, awesome, All right, Well 657 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: that I'm gonna roll us out of here. Thank you 658 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,799 Speaker 1: for listening to an addiction talk to you, sir. Thank 659 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,120 Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in. And if you like 660 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: this episode, please check out my book un Addiction, Six 661 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:16,440 Speaker 1: mind Changing Conversations that Could Save a Life, available at 662 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,880 Speaker 1: Barnes and Noble Bookshop, dot Org, Union Squaring Company, Amazon, 663 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: and wherever books are sold. We want to hear from you. 664 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,600 Speaker 1: If you identify as black or brown and have a 665 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,440 Speaker 1: recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that 666 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,280 Speaker 1: you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction. 667 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,120 Speaker 1: Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you 668 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:48,160 Speaker 1: apod that's speak pipe dot com, slash you a pod.