Speaker 1: You really cannot just sit back and think generously. It
Speaker 1: requires action. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Barbara Bonner. Barbara started her professional life as an art
Speaker 1: historian and since has devoted her career to nonprofit management, fundraising,
Speaker 1: and philanthropy. Barbara served as vice president of the Bennington
Speaker 1: College and of the Cripple Whose Center for Yoga and Health.
Speaker 1: Since two thousand nine, she has had her own consulting
Speaker 1: company that helps nonprofit organizations transform their board leadership and
Speaker 1: philanthropic support. Barbara is the author of two books, Inspiring
Speaker 1: Courage and Inspiring Generosity. Hey everybody, this is Chris, and
Speaker 1: before we get started on this week's episode, I wanted
Speaker 1: to tell you that a huge avenue for financial support
Speaker 1: has been through reoccurring monthly donations given by you, our
Speaker 1: dear listeners, and those of you who have pledged support,
Speaker 1: even at the two dollar month level, have made such
Speaker 1: a huge difference for us, and we're just so grateful.
Speaker 1: What we've decided to do is offer you the choice
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Speaker 1: if you get at least five dollars worth of value
Speaker 1: each month from us, we humbly ask for you to
Speaker 1: make a donation. Thanks. And here's the interview with Barbara Bonner. Hi, Barbara,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I love
Speaker 1: your show. Thank you. You've written two books, one called
Speaker 1: Inspiring Courage and the other called Inspiring Generosity, which are
Speaker 1: books that I would say they're a collection of stories, quotes,
Speaker 1: and poems, one of them about courage and the other
Speaker 1: about generosity. So we're gonna talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: both of those characteristics. But let's start like we normally do,
Speaker 1: with the parable where there's a grandmother who's talking with
Speaker 1: her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two
Speaker 1: wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One
Speaker 1: is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and
Speaker 1: bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The
Speaker 1: granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second,
Speaker 1: and she looks up at her grandmother and she says, well, grandmother,
Speaker 1: which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to start off by asking you what
Speaker 1: that parable means to you in your life and in
Speaker 1: the work that you do. It's just a wonderful parable
Speaker 1: that I've loved over the years. I've heard it ascribed
Speaker 1: to so many sources, from Cherokee to Buddhist uh, And
Speaker 1: it's always really resonated deeply with me. I think we
Speaker 1: have a choice in every moment and every day, which
Speaker 1: way are we going to go? Uh? For me, I
Speaker 1: would say certainly. As as related to our talk later
Speaker 1: about these two books, inspiration has been the feature of
Speaker 1: my life that really speaks to feeding the good wolf.
Speaker 1: What is it that inspires us in our lives, whether
Speaker 1: it's in what we choose to read, what friends we
Speaker 1: choose to spend time with their music to listen to.
Speaker 1: I find even when I walk my dog in the
Speaker 1: morning and evening, can we just take the time to
Speaker 1: really be inspired by what's around us? And so, as
Speaker 1: I approached writing two books, I thought, what is the
Speaker 1: most inspiring way to do this? What can I really
Speaker 1: give to readers that will that will make their lives
Speaker 1: turn in a way that can be with them all
Speaker 1: the time. I think that's so great. That is a
Speaker 1: big part of why the show exists. I think was
Speaker 1: simply to be a I think reminder is a less
Speaker 1: powerful word than inspiration, but to remember or to be
Speaker 1: inspired by the qualities that we want to have. And
Speaker 1: so I think remembering is the first piece, like I
Speaker 1: want to be courageous, I want to be generous. And
Speaker 1: then the second piece that you've talked about is the
Speaker 1: more that you can have that, at least for me,
Speaker 1: said in beautiful ways, the more powerful it is. And
Speaker 1: there's lots and lots of beautiful ways to say both
Speaker 1: those things in these books. Yes, And I think it also,
Speaker 1: like these two qualities, it's almost a muscle that we
Speaker 1: can exercise. I read a wonderful quote from Earl Straight
Speaker 1: at the turn of the year, uh when I was
Speaker 1: sort of thinking about resolutions, and she was quoting her
Speaker 1: mother who said, put yourself in the way of beauty.
Speaker 1: It's just wonderful. It's something we actually can do, and
Speaker 1: I would just change it to put yourself in the
Speaker 1: way of inspiration. What can we do that brings inspiration
Speaker 1: into our lives every day, not in such a high
Speaker 1: salutin way, but in often a little everyday choices they
Speaker 1: add up and suddenly life is different. Yeah, I agree
Speaker 1: with that a lot. I've been thinking lately a lot
Speaker 1: about the role that art and beauty plays in you know,
Speaker 1: what we typically think of as self help or personal
Speaker 1: development or whatever. And that's not an area that's talked
Speaker 1: about a whole lot in those in those spaces, and
Speaker 1: and it's such a big part for me of how
Speaker 1: I keep myself moving in the right direction is you know,
Speaker 1: particularly music is the biggest one for me, but but fiction, literature,
Speaker 1: you know, it's all it's just such a powerful way
Speaker 1: to get outside of myself and to transcend sort of
Speaker 1: my normal, mundane thoughts of myself. Yes, I listened to
Speaker 1: your interview with the wonderful wil Shwama, whom I admire
Speaker 1: and like so much, is talking about just that in
Speaker 1: reading that the the impact of a book. We're different
Speaker 1: at the end of a book than we are at
Speaker 1: the beginning. What is that It's not just the words
Speaker 1: on the page. It is the power of inspiration for
Speaker 1: great books and and for me what music I listened
Speaker 1: to when I'm working at home, which is most of
Speaker 1: the time. I suddenly I wasn't paying attention to that
Speaker 1: until a couple of years ago. Now I listened to
Speaker 1: classical music. Well, the work changes absolutely. So I think
Speaker 1: there is a poem by Hafeez that you like to
Speaker 1: read that might be a place for us to start
Speaker 1: getting into the books. I start each book actually with
Speaker 1: a poem by half These, the Persian poet of many
Speaker 1: centuries ago. So I'll start with the generosity one. Even
Speaker 1: after all this time, the sun never say as to
Speaker 1: the earth you owe me. Look what happens with a
Speaker 1: love like that? It lights the whole sky. I thought
Speaker 1: it was a wonderful sort of exclamation point with which
Speaker 1: to start the book. Yeah, so let's talk about generosity.
Speaker 1: I think we all kind of know what it is.
Speaker 1: But if you are going to maybe take us beyond
Speaker 1: our normal thought of generosity deeper into the idea, you know,
Speaker 1: what would you consider as ways to think about generosity?
Speaker 1: And then secondly, what would you think are ways that
Speaker 1: we can cultivate it. I don't think we actually all
Speaker 1: look at it the same way. And one of my
Speaker 1: real desires in writing the book was to reframe how
Speaker 1: we do consider generosity. I think so often when we
Speaker 1: use the term, people think of it as giving or
Speaker 1: exchanging material goods or money, and I think it's not that.
Speaker 1: I think that's often quite a very good thing to do.
Speaker 1: But there can be any motivations for that. It can
Speaker 1: be so that we look good to other people. It
Speaker 1: can be because our heart is genuinely open and we
Speaker 1: want to make a difference in the world. And I
Speaker 1: think that as people look at generosity in a in
Speaker 1: a broader way, they feel perhaps that it's more accessible
Speaker 1: to them. I think also when we talk about generosity,
Speaker 1: we tend to, at least in the media, focus on
Speaker 1: the philanthropic billionaires and not the people leading I hate
Speaker 1: the word, but everyday lives putting one foot in front
Speaker 1: of the other, and yet generosity is still their north
Speaker 1: star and that's how they live their lives. So I
Speaker 1: chose to write the fourteen stories in the book about
Speaker 1: people who were not famous and doing just that, and
Speaker 1: that interested me greatly. Yeah, I think one of the
Speaker 1: things about generosity for me that I have recognized is
Speaker 1: that it's kind of a chicken and egg, right, that
Speaker 1: that generosity engenders feelings of having enough and being grateful,
Speaker 1: and then being grateful and thinking I have enough in gender,
Speaker 1: you know, generosity, that thing goes both directions for me,
Speaker 1: and so you know, sometimes I'll give money to homeless
Speaker 1: people on the street and occasionally someone would be like,
Speaker 1: you know, that's just pointless, right that, And and yes,
Speaker 1: from a spending of charitable dollars, there are surely better
Speaker 1: ways to do it. But there's something about in the moment,
Speaker 1: responding to what's in front of me that for me
Speaker 1: helps me remember how fortunate I am. So there's some
Speaker 1: degree of selfish motivation in there, but but so much
Speaker 1: of it is driven by that open heart. Well, you
Speaker 1: touch a very important point, and that is that I
Speaker 1: don't think we can actually be generous unless we feel gratitude.
Speaker 1: To feel gratitude for our own lives, to feel a
Speaker 1: sense of abundance ourselves really allows generosity to kind of
Speaker 1: flow from that um without it with a sense of
Speaker 1: sort of stinginess or that we just don't have enough,
Speaker 1: we have to find for everything. Uh, it's impossible to
Speaker 1: open your heart and really be generous. And I love
Speaker 1: the example you gave people off and say that, oh
Speaker 1: why are you giving to someone at the subway or
Speaker 1: on the well. There's a great quote from Barbara Aaron
Speaker 1: Reich in the book that says, it really doesn't matter
Speaker 1: if the person you give it to is going to
Speaker 1: buy baby formula or a bottle of ripple. Uh. You've
Speaker 1: opened your heart and you've done what moved you forward,
Speaker 1: and from then on it's up to the faiths. One
Speaker 1: of the things that we talked about on the show
Speaker 1: A lot and means a lot to me is the
Speaker 1: idea that sometimes we have to act our way into
Speaker 1: right thinking. And that's why for me, generosity can be
Speaker 1: almost an action sometimes that I can make myself do
Speaker 1: that then brings along the gratitude. So sometimes I'm grateful
Speaker 1: and I can be generous, but I found that I
Speaker 1: can use it as a tool to bring me along.
Speaker 1: So it's an action that I take. I may not
Speaker 1: be feeling particularly generous or grateful at the moment, but
Speaker 1: if I somehow get my self into a space where
Speaker 1: I act that way, then then the feelings follow. When
Speaker 1: I was recovering alcoholic addict and and a A somebody
Speaker 1: used to say all the time, gratitude is an action word,
Speaker 1: you know, from their perspective. It wasn't just about a
Speaker 1: feeling you have that if you're grateful, you are doing
Speaker 1: all these other things for other people. And I just
Speaker 1: think it goes both directions. That's very true, and I
Speaker 1: always say that I think both generosity and courage our activities.
Speaker 1: You really cannot just sit back and think generously. It
Speaker 1: requires action as discourage, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: grand action. We can try at it, you know, and
Speaker 1: do the best we can. I tell people who complain
Speaker 1: that they don't they think it's really beyond them, so
Speaker 1: they will just move into a space of greater generosity.
Speaker 1: Try it on for size. You'll be surprised what happens.
Speaker 1: May I read a quote from the Generosity book that
Speaker 1: speaks to this. Yeah, it's one of my favorites, and
Speaker 1: it's by a great Buddhist teacher, gallic Rempichet my head
Speaker 1: the pleasure of meeting and speaking, And here it goes,
Speaker 1: when you're practicing generosity, you should feel a little pinch
Speaker 1: when you give something away that pinches your stinging is protesting.
Speaker 1: If you give away your old, worn out coat that
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be caught dead wearing, it's not generosity. There's
Speaker 1: no pinch. You're doing nothing to overcome your stinginess. You're
Speaker 1: just cleaning out your closet and calling it something else.
Speaker 1: Giving away your coat might keep someone warm, but it
Speaker 1: does not address the problem to free ourselves from self
Speaker 1: cherishing and self grasping. Yeah it's yeah, yeah, it's. It
Speaker 1: certainly sets the bar at at a different level to
Speaker 1: be generous. It just makes me think of I track
Speaker 1: lots of things in my life just because it's it's
Speaker 1: a way that I have learned to sort of make
Speaker 1: sure I'm taking care of myself. And one of the
Speaker 1: things I, you know, keep track of each day as
Speaker 1: whether I did something that I think is an act
Speaker 1: of kindness. And I'm often in a debate with myself
Speaker 1: about like was that really kindness or was that just
Speaker 1: basic decency? Like, you know, did I really extend there
Speaker 1: or did I just do like what I should do.
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think of it in that way,
Speaker 1: in the way he phrases it about feeling that little
Speaker 1: bit of pinch, And I think in your dilemma of
Speaker 1: is it kindness, it doesn't really matter. It's where it
Speaker 1: comes from. Does it have a sense of pouring forth
Speaker 1: from inside to acting from an open heart. You can
Speaker 1: just tell, you can just tell. Yep. That makes me
Speaker 1: think of we're talking about generosity and you said it's
Speaker 1: not just giving of money or even of time. The
Speaker 1: Buddhist idea of loving kindness, of a loving kindness meditation
Speaker 1: where you you know, wish everyone well, Like I could
Speaker 1: just do it on a plane or a subway or
Speaker 1: sitting and just kind of go around and you know,
Speaker 1: may you be happy, may you be healthy. And again
Speaker 1: another thing that I can do action wise that engenders
Speaker 1: a great feeling of generosity in me as I do it.
Speaker 1: It's a very powerful meta aitation. Loving gun is meditation,
Speaker 1: I think. And you're quite right. It happens, uh once,
Speaker 1: once we get sort of used to it and it
Speaker 1: practiced it a bit. It comes up in all kinds
Speaker 1: of moments in our life. I was just on four
Speaker 1: planes and everything was delayed and snowstorms and a departure
Speaker 1: lounge is a perfect place to work on loving kindness.
Speaker 1: Do you think I could get you to read a
Speaker 1: poem from the Inspiring Courage Book? Oh? I could be
Speaker 1: talked into that, Eric, Can I pick? Oh? You may sure?
Speaker 1: So I'd like to have you read page thirty eight
Speaker 1: Sweet Darkness by David White. A because it's a gorgeous poem,
Speaker 1: and B because I got to see him read it
Speaker 1: recently at an event and it just kind of blew
Speaker 1: me away. So I love David White. I was in
Speaker 1: a workshop with him last year and I found he
Speaker 1: was the very personification of inspiration. So I'd love to
Speaker 1: read this poem Sweet Darkness by David White. When your
Speaker 1: eyes are tired, the world is tired. Also, when your
Speaker 1: vision has gone, no part of the world can find you.
Speaker 1: Time to go into the dark, where the night has
Speaker 1: eyes to recognize its own. There you can be sure
Speaker 1: you are not beyond love. The dark will be your
Speaker 1: womb tonight. The night will give you a horizon further
Speaker 1: than you can see. You must learn one thing, the
Speaker 1: world was made to be free, and give up all
Speaker 1: the other worlds except the one to which you belong.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it takes darkness and the sweet confinement of your
Speaker 1: a loneness to learn anything or anyone that does not
Speaker 1: bring you alive is too small for you. So he's
Speaker 1: really talking also about the power of inspiration, what brings
Speaker 1: you alive. That's such a beautiful poem. Isn't it wonderful? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we've explored generosity. Let's explore courage a little bit more.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about your definition of courage or your perspective. Well,
Speaker 1: I'll start with in the book, I wrote about fourteen
Speaker 1: people who lead or lead exceptionally courageous lives. I'm interested
Speaker 1: beyond just the quality of courage into what it means
Speaker 1: to lead a courageous life. And in all of them,
Speaker 1: first of all, none of them agree that they are courageous.
Speaker 1: That seems to come as a definition with being courageous.
Speaker 1: Everyone says I didn't do anything special. I only did
Speaker 1: what is put in my path. Anybody would have done it.
Speaker 1: I think that happens because a courageous act calls out
Speaker 1: in us a sense of our truly authentic self. It
Speaker 1: doesn't feel like we're doing anything that's a huge reach.
Speaker 1: We're just stepping forward into who we really are. We
Speaker 1: sense a a need, something that has to be done,
Speaker 1: and we step into it without thinking. It's really spontaneous.
Speaker 1: Nobody overthinks courage, and the stories time and again have
Speaker 1: that resonance. And then, as I say, it's not really
Speaker 1: about the moment when someone goes into a burning building
Speaker 1: to save a child. It's what happens to that person afterwards.
Speaker 1: They're living in a new place, in a new orientation,
Speaker 1: the world is different. Courage becomes then something that is
Speaker 1: part of them and something uh that sort of a
Speaker 1: lens through which they see their whole lives. Uh. It
Speaker 1: changes life and it changes the people around us. You
Speaker 1: also mentioned that a lot of what enables these people
Speaker 1: to be courage is the is the life they lived
Speaker 1: before the courageous act, or the way they viewed the
Speaker 1: world or you know that there was there was more
Speaker 1: than just the act of courage to who these people were. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think as I get them to look back on
Speaker 1: their lives, which is very hard because as I say,
Speaker 1: they don't fess up to being courageous. There is a
Speaker 1: sense of of authenticity in their lives, of being able
Speaker 1: to speak truth to power, of uh, taking on an adversary,
Speaker 1: of standing up for the bully in the playground when
Speaker 1: they were a child. It's practiced throughout their lives in
Speaker 1: seemingly small ways. And then something, an event happens in
Speaker 1: which perhaps the grand gesture is called forth. But they
Speaker 1: can look back and say, oh, that happened, Yeah, that happened.
Speaker 1: That was certainly true of Tim da Christopher, who is
Speaker 1: a great environmental activist who went to prison for two
Speaker 1: years for his environmental activism. He says he's not courageous
Speaker 1: at all, but in fact he was always just speaking
Speaker 1: his truth and then he got to really speak it
Speaker 1: very loudly and pay for it and pay for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another inspiring there's lots of inspiring stories. Is there's no
Speaker 1: way I'll get this said right. But Edith and Lowett, Yes,
Speaker 1: lutu loot loot Velman's is that correct? Is correct? You
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about them. Well, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to because they're both very close friends and it was
Speaker 1: such a joy to be able to shine a spotlight
Speaker 1: on them, although they're both very modest and they fought
Speaker 1: me a bit. Uh. Edith is now ninety two, UH
Speaker 1: and she's Dutch. She was in Holland as World War
Speaker 1: two broke out and her family was taken away to
Speaker 1: concentration camps. She was hidden by a Protestant family. Uh.
Speaker 1: And as it happened, uh, the family housed a Nazi
Speaker 1: soldier in the adjoining room. So she lived in that
Speaker 1: hiding place for a year and a half. She quite
Speaker 1: coincidentally went into hiding the day that and Frank went
Speaker 1: into hiding, so she would say that that experience did
Speaker 1: not really require courage. But she's lived her life since
Speaker 1: then with great courage, with great determination, wanting to make
Speaker 1: the most of life, wanting to be optimistic and hopeful
Speaker 1: and uh and became a psychologist and helped others. Her
Speaker 1: husband Loot. The day that the Nazis moved into Amsterdam,
Speaker 1: he got hold of a small lifeboat that could take
Speaker 1: four people, and he pulled together forty four close friends
Speaker 1: and neighbors Jews who were going to be clearly carried away,
Speaker 1: and they all got in the boat and headed out
Speaker 1: into the North Sea, not knowing that they would live.
Speaker 1: They were picked up by a British boat the day after.
Speaker 1: Tremendous courage, and then two years later Lute was part
Speaker 1: of the Death March of the River Kuai in Thailand
Speaker 1: for two years as a prisoner of the Japanese. So
Speaker 1: you would think that someone like that would become dissolutioned
Speaker 1: or bitter or hard. Instead, he was one of the
Speaker 1: most humorist, gracious, optimistic people I've ever met. Became quite
Speaker 1: ironically the chairman of Hill and Nolton, the great PR firm,
Speaker 1: and really invented the field of public relations. It's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's always been interesting to me what terrible experiences like
Speaker 1: the ones that they both went through can do to you.
Speaker 1: And in both of them it um just increased their
Speaker 1: courage to live wonderful, meaningful lives. Yeah, I'm very much
Speaker 1: fascinated by what causes some people to come out of
Speaker 1: very difficult experiences better, stronger, um using them grist for
Speaker 1: the mill, and what causes other people to um not
Speaker 1: be able to do that. We hear about post traumatic stress,
Speaker 1: but they also something we don't talk much about as
Speaker 1: post traumatic growth, which happens in people. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: another phenomenon that's just not discussed. But but trauma can
Speaker 1: be or a very difficult situation can be a catalyst
Speaker 1: to tremendous growth. It can. And we hear so often
Speaker 1: that or I have in researching both books that uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a good and happy and secure childhood is
Speaker 1: the basis for being able to live into both qualities.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's true at all. I think it
Speaker 1: it can be quite the opposite. Um, I don't know
Speaker 1: what it is but it's not that. There's a quote
Speaker 1: in the Courage Book that I really like because I
Speaker 1: think it it spins this a little bit on its head,
Speaker 1: and it says, courage is what it takes to stand
Speaker 1: up and speak. Courage is also what it takes to
Speaker 1: sit down and listen. Winston Churchill, Well, we don't. We
Speaker 1: don't do enough listening, that's for sure, particularly in this
Speaker 1: world of ours right now. I think in both generosity
Speaker 1: and courage, listening is a very key quality. How can
Speaker 1: we know what's called for possibly unless we listen. And
Speaker 1: yet so much of our contemporary culture is about talking,
Speaker 1: being forceful, getting the last word in. I find, particularly
Speaker 1: in my own business life, which is working with institutions
Speaker 1: largely raising money, that people think that that's an area
Speaker 1: in which you just have to be smarter than the
Speaker 1: last guys say the last word, be aggressive. My experience
Speaker 1: has been the best listener wins the day. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: think that is the case in in a lot of
Speaker 1: different fields. Certainly in the sales work I've done in
Speaker 1: previous parts of my life that's definitely been sort of
Speaker 1: the secret weapon. And in leadership, I mean, when we
Speaker 1: look at at all forms of leadership. I'm thinking now
Speaker 1: of government. Uh, we did have quite a wonderful president
Speaker 1: in our last president who was capable of listening and
Speaker 1: being compassionate and really hearing. I hope that happens again. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think you know we're talking about where did these
Speaker 1: qualities come from? Page five, the Buddhist teacher Pema Cho
Speaker 1: Dren says, deep down in the human spirit, there is
Speaker 1: a reservoir of courage. It's always available, always waiting to
Speaker 1: be discovered. I think that's true. It also speaks to
Speaker 1: people who can't explain why they're courageous, that there is
Speaker 1: something simply untapped that lives there that at a certain
Speaker 1: moment is called forth Um. That's always been fascinating to me.
Speaker 1: And when I read hers her quote, I think that's true.
Speaker 1: There's a wonderful quote. While I'm unquotes, then we'll go
Speaker 1: where you want we We started the first book with
Speaker 1: a Huffy Is quote. Here's here's one that starts off
Speaker 1: this book. Fear is the cheapest room in the house.
Speaker 1: I'd like to see you living in better conditions. So true, like,
Speaker 1: if we could choose, why would we choose Yep, And
Speaker 1: there's a as you're talking. It strikes me that Pema
Speaker 1: Chodren quote made me think of this, that there's a
Speaker 1: correlation between generosity and courage. I think. I think there
Speaker 1: is a you could say it's an openness of spirit,
Speaker 1: but it has it also has something to do with
Speaker 1: feeling like you have enough and you are enough, or
Speaker 1: you are strong enough. I think that there's a there's
Speaker 1: a strong correlation between the two two. To really act courageously,
Speaker 1: you are your your your orientation is turned outward, your interest,
Speaker 1: you feel connected to, uh, the larger world. You're basically
Speaker 1: altruistic in wanting to You're not You're not doing a
Speaker 1: courageous act because it feels good to you. You're doing
Speaker 1: it because it is for someone else. It has a
Speaker 1: greater impact. That is an act of generosity. Um. And likewise,
Speaker 1: to be truly generous at times, you have to have
Speaker 1: a good deal of courage. People will try and talk
Speaker 1: you out of it. Um, people will put you down
Speaker 1: for it. Uh. It's something that comes from your own
Speaker 1: deepest convictions, and sometimes you have to stand up to
Speaker 1: people who are going to try and talk you out
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah. I found that to be an interesting
Speaker 1: challenge in my own life. That I just look at,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a comment on culture in general,
Speaker 1: but also a comment on me. Is it all? Occasionally,
Speaker 1: you know, in a in a in a work situation
Speaker 1: or any kind of situation, I'll think, like, I want
Speaker 1: to ask that person if they're doing okay, or I
Speaker 1: want to say something really nice to that person, or
Speaker 1: I want to and there's a fear there, there's a hesitation,
Speaker 1: and and so sometimes it does. You know, it does
Speaker 1: take courage just to even for me to do the
Speaker 1: little silly thing that is very generous but seems like,
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, is not easy to do. I know
Speaker 1: exactly what you mean, and I think it speaks to
Speaker 1: um to both qualities being ones that can be practiced,
Speaker 1: you can practice in very small ways. I've generally found
Speaker 1: that reaching out to someone, uh, with a generous act
Speaker 1: or a courageous act is very rarely not Uh. It
Speaker 1: may not be acknowledged, but it's always appreciated. Uh. And
Speaker 1: why not? What's the alternative? You know? Yep? If we
Speaker 1: want to live lives of greater meaning than just step
Speaker 1: forward into it. Also, I think it doesn't neither one
Speaker 1: has to be the grand act. Uh. I tell people
Speaker 1: just move in that direction. Just move in that direction. YEA,
Speaker 1: Well that's a that's a refrain on this show all
Speaker 1: the time. Tiny steps, steps, baby steps, you know, just
Speaker 1: do something. Start as small as you need to, but start.
Speaker 1: I agree. In the Courage book, there's another quote. I
Speaker 1: don't have it in front of me, but it's a
Speaker 1: quote I've always loved, which is like, you know, a
Speaker 1: ship is safe in Harvard, but that's not what ships
Speaker 1: are for exactly exactly. We take such comfort in our
Speaker 1: security in life. Uh. And then there can be sort
Speaker 1: of a lightful moment when we realize that, oh, it's
Speaker 1: only once around the track and life is really two
Speaker 1: lead a life of meaning, uh. And the lead a
Speaker 1: life of meaning means you have to put yourself at risk.
Speaker 1: You have to step forward. You have to make those
Speaker 1: gestures small or large, Uh, that resonate with you and
Speaker 1: with the people around you. So how about we wrap
Speaker 1: up with you reading another poem of your choosing from
Speaker 1: either book. It's a page and a half. If we
Speaker 1: have time for that. Do the Wendell Berry poem. It's
Speaker 1: the one of it. It's the one that people tend
Speaker 1: to sort of swoon over when I read it. In
Speaker 1: in book talks. So if if that's good, I will.
Speaker 1: It speaks to many qualities beyond courage. But to me,
Speaker 1: I put it up front because it is kind of
Speaker 1: the the gong that sounds what I want to sound
Speaker 1: as we start. Manifesto The Mad Farmer, Liberation Front by
Speaker 1: Wendell Berry, Love the quick, profit, the annual raise, vacation
Speaker 1: with pay, want more of everything ready made. Be afraid
Speaker 1: to know your neighbors, and to die, and you will
Speaker 1: have a window in your head. Not even your future
Speaker 1: will be a mystery anymore. Your mind will be punched
Speaker 1: in a card and shut away in a little drawer.
Speaker 1: When they want you to buy something, they'll call you.
Speaker 1: When they want you to die for profit, they'll let
Speaker 1: you know. So, friends, every day, do something that won't compute.
Speaker 1: Love the Lord, love the world, work for nothing, Take
Speaker 1: all that you have and be poor. Love someone who
Speaker 1: does not deserve it. Denounce the government and embrace the flag.
Speaker 1: Hope to live in that free republic for which it stands.
Speaker 1: Give your approval to all you cannot understand. Praise ignorance
Speaker 1: for what man is not encountered, he's not destroyed. Ask
Speaker 1: the questions that have no answers. Invest in the millennium
Speaker 1: plants sequoias. Say that your main crop is the forest
Speaker 1: that you did not plant, that you will not live
Speaker 1: to harvest. Say that the leaves are harvested when they
Speaker 1: have rotted into mold. Call that profit prophesy such returns.
Speaker 1: Put your faith in the two inches of hummus that
Speaker 1: will build under the trees every thousand years. Listen to
Speaker 1: carry on. Put your ear close and hear the faint
Speaker 1: chattering of the songs that are to come. Expect the
Speaker 1: end of the world. Laugh. Laughter is immeasurable. Be joyful,
Speaker 1: though you've considered all the facts. So long as women
Speaker 1: do not go cheap for power, Please women more than men.
Speaker 1: Ask yourself, will this as by a woman satisfied to
Speaker 1: bear a child? Will this disturb the sleep of a
Speaker 1: woman near to giving birth? Go with your love to
Speaker 1: the fields, Lie down in the shade, Rest your head
Speaker 1: in her lap. Swear allegiance to what is nighest your thoughts.
Speaker 1: As soon as the generals and the politicos can predict
Speaker 1: the motions of your mind, lose it, leave it as
Speaker 1: a sign to mark the false trail the way you
Speaker 1: didn't go. Be like the Fox who makes more tracks
Speaker 1: than next the Serai. So I'm in the wrong direction
Speaker 1: practice resurrection. Yeah, I love that. Every day do something
Speaker 1: that doesn't compute. I do too. That's so good and
Speaker 1: so hard to do sometimes. Yeah, well it's nice to
Speaker 1: get permission for it, isn't it. Yes? Yes, well, Barbara,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed both books. As I mentioned earlier, they're
Speaker 1: They're beautiful books, lots of quotes, poems. They're more than
Speaker 1: just like a book you sit down and read. They're
Speaker 1: the kind of thing that you can pull off the shelf,
Speaker 1: look at get inspiration from. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for the books and coming on the show. My great pleasure.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Eric, take care, bye bye. If what you
Speaker 1: just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a
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