1 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newts World. Haiti began as a 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: nation of liberation and resistance, but now finds itself on 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: the brink of collapse. Under the weight of political chaos, 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: economic devastation, and foreign intervention. Armed groups have overrun the nation. 5 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: Government officials have fled following the assassination of President Moise 6 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one, and refugees embark on journeys by 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: boat in search of safety in the United States and 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: Latin America. In the aftermath of both natural and man 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: made disasters has left Haiti's infrastructure in ruins and its 10 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:48,520 Speaker 1: economy crippled. In his new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: and the Battle to Control Haiti, j Johnson delves into 12 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: the heart of Haiti's tumultuous history and its current state 13 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 1: of crisis. I'm really pleased to welcome my guests. Jake 14 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: Johnson is a senior research associate at the Center for 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Economic and Policy Research in Washington, d C. And has 16 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: been the leading writer for the Center's Haiti Relief and 17 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: Reconstruction Watch website since February twenty ten, just weeks after 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: a seven point zero earthquake devastated Haiti. Jake, Welcome and 19 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me on newts World. 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: Appreciate you having me. 21 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: Before we get into the current situation. I'm really curious 22 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: why did you become attracted to studying Haiti. 23 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 2: Thanks. 24 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 3: I think the important part is how we get involved, 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 3: but also I think very relevant to everything that's going 26 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: on now fifteen years later. And so you know, I 27 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: was working in DC at the time of the earthquake 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 3: in twenty ten, and I think, like so many was 29 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 3: with a lot of my colleagues, motivated to try and 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: do something, to try and help in some way. And 31 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 3: I think we realized pretty early on that a lot 32 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 3: of the decisions about how money was going to get spent, 33 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 3: who was going to get it, and what was going 34 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 3: to happen in Haiti was going to have to do 35 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 3: with decisions that were being made in Washington as much 36 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 3: as decisions that were being made in import of prints 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,079 Speaker 3: and so being in Washington, we had a unique role 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 3: to play in that regard. And so for me, it 39 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: was really starting to answer this question that everyone was 40 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 3: asking after the earthquake, which is ten billion dollars pledged 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 3: from countries all around the world. Where was the money 42 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 3: going and that was really my entrance into this topic 43 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: and what has opened my eyes to a whole lot 44 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: of things over the last fifteen years. 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: Well, the earthquake in twenty ten killed about two hundred 46 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: and twenty thousand Haitians and displaced another million and a 47 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: half and the eight billion dollars in agrants the basic 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 1: reconstruction costs were larger than the country's annual gross domestic product. 49 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: Then you get drought in twenty fifteen to twenty seventeen, 50 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: leading to crop losses of seventy percent. In twenty sixteen, 51 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: Hurricane Matthew decimated the country's housing, livestock, and infrastructure. Then 52 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: there were back to back disasters. In August twenty twenty one, 53 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: a magnitude seven point two earthquake rocked the southern Peninsula, 54 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: destroying thirty percent of local homes, killing over two thousand 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: people and displacing tens of thousands more. It's almost like 56 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: Haiti has a target on its back and something happens 57 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: negative on a regular basis. 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally understand that. I think it's easy to 59 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 3: say sort of, you know, Haiti can't catch a break, right, 60 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: and these natural disasters are part of it. But you know, 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: natural disasters are also often accompanied by man made disasters. 62 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 3: The event itself, right, an earthquake, a hurricane, you can't 63 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: stop that, but you can do something to limit its effect, 64 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: to prevent it from having the damage and the deadly 65 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 3: impact that it can have, and to recover from it 66 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 3: and respond to it in more productive ways. And so, 67 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 3: you know, I think that is true that Haiti is 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: had a target at its back, but it's not just 69 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: from nature. I think it's been from many very powerful 70 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: countries across the world that in a lot of ways 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: have had a target on Haiti's back for a long 72 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 3: long time. 73 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: Well, talk about that for a second, because you have, 74 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: I think a sort of romanticized vision of how the 75 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: original Haitian rebellion occurred. It was extraordinarily brutal. The French 76 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: were defeated and driven from the country, and at one 77 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: point the winning side had an explicit anti white policy 78 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,160 Speaker 1: of just killing the colonists. So the country sort of 79 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: started much more estranged from Europe and much more isolated 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: in many ways than most of the other countries that 81 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: were during that period also in rebellion. The long history 82 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: of Haiti and the history of corruption and Haitian government 83 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: up through Papa Doc for example, in Baby Doc. It 84 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: seems to me there's a tragedy to the country that's 85 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: very deep and very real and unbelievably painful for the 86 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: people of Haiti. 87 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 3: There is a history of corruption. I don't think that 88 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 3: is necessarily unique to Haiti. I think it's also important 89 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,799 Speaker 3: to talk about who has held political power in Haiti 90 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 3: and if they're truly representative of the Haitian majority. 91 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: Right. 92 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 3: But going back to its origin story, I mean, of 93 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:15,600 Speaker 3: course the revolution was violent. I mean, the enslavement of 94 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 3: the population for decades. 95 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 2: And centuries before was violent. 96 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 3: But what I mean by the target on the back 97 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 3: is that Haiti's independence was not met with open arms regardless. 98 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: I mean it took the United States sixty plus years 99 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 3: to recognize Haiti's independence, to open up actual trade relations 100 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: with the new Haitian state with an independent Haiti. France 101 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: did recognize Haiti in eighteen twenty five, but only on 102 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 3: a condition that Haiti pay an absurdly high loan or 103 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 3: debt payment to France for its freedom, for the property 104 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 3: that French merchants and landholders lost in Haiti. 105 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 2: And so these things were important. 106 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 3: You know, Haiti was seen as a threat to the 107 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 3: dominant economic system of the time, and certainly it was 108 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: forced to pay for that. And of course today's situation 109 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: is not solely about things that happened two hundred years ago, right, 110 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 3: I mean, we can talk a lot about more recent 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: history and further actions from international actors. But I think 112 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 3: you know, one of the dynamics that's really consistent throughout 113 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 3: Haites's history is this nexus of a local political and 114 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: economic elite and their relationship with external powers, and how 115 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: that nexus of power and influence has really held sway 116 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 3: over the Haitian state for two hundred years, more than 117 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 3: two hundred years, and that it has never fully embraced 118 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 3: the actual population itself or been a state that is 119 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 3: representative of the full spectrum of the Haitian population. 120 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: From your perspective, you talk a lot about the very 121 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: way in which we went about helping them in some 122 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: ways hurt them. 123 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 3: That's right, And I think again this gets into more 124 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 3: of some of the recent history. I think there's deep 125 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: historical roots to all of this. But my engagement really 126 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 3: started after the twenty ten earthquake, and you know, the 127 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 3: mantra at the time was build back better, right, learn 128 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 3: from our mistakes of the past and do things differently 129 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 3: this time. And that's not what we saw, right, And 130 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 3: so I was tracking the money flows, where was the 131 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 3: money going? And you know, the reality was a lot 132 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: of the money was going to companies that were much 133 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: closer to my office. 134 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 2: Here in DC than they weren't anybody in Haiti. 135 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,360 Speaker 3: And Okay, I understand some of the motivations behind that, 136 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: but the result of that was weakening local capacity, undermining 137 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 3: local governments and local institutions. And if we really want 138 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: to help build long term sustainability, we want to make 139 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: sure that we're not being asked to contribute more aid 140 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: in the future or spending more money. We need to 141 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: make sure the money we do spend is actually building 142 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 3: local capacity in a sustainable way. 143 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: Walk me through that a little bit. I mean, my 144 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: sense is, you know, I think we first really intervene 145 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: about nineteen twenty two or nineteen twenty three, the Marines 146 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: go into Haiti for a while, and then we've off 147 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: and on had relationships where we've either tried to ignore 148 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: Haiti or we've tried to help pay. We've certainly played 149 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: a role in terms of who's president and how that 150 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: has worked. I remember Jimmy Carter and Sam Nunn and 151 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: Colin Power sent down by President Clinton to meet with 152 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: the Haitian president and try to sort things out. And 153 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: I once set a chance to talk at length with 154 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: Pale about it, and it was all surreal. 155 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you were speaking of the House of the time. 156 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, So I have a very real interest in 157 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: this and I'm totally puzzled by it. Then, of course, 158 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: you have the recent assassination of the president noise, do 159 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: you have apparently a very dramatic increase in the size 160 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: and power and sophistication of the gangs which will apparently 161 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: occupy a very substantial part dominate now a substantial part 162 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: of the country. What fuels that as a drug fueled 163 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: or what is it about the gangs and enable them 164 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: to become so strong? 165 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think this is an important question, an 166 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 3: important dynamic, and I think to begin they control a 167 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: large part of the capitol, right. I think it is 168 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: important to note that Haiti is much more than just 169 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: port of Prints. It's a country of twelve million. The 170 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 3: majority of the population is outside of Porter Prince, and 171 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 3: the majority of the country, while obviously affected by things 172 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 3: happening in the capitol, it remains largely peaceful. And so 173 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 3: you know, Haiti is not just violence, violence and chaos 174 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: right now, and we need to keep that in mind. 175 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 3: But in terms of these armed groups, there's a long 176 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 3: history of this sort of paramilitary action non state armed 177 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: forces in Haiti, going back to du Vallie and even before. 178 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 3: But I would trace the sort of recent phenomenon to 179 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 3: a few things and a few different factors. One is, 180 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: there have always been a deep connection between these arm 181 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: groups and the political and economical lead in the country. 182 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: And that's because these groups are largely operating in communities, 183 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: very densely populated communities that make up the majority of 184 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: the population of porter prints. And those are also communities 185 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 3: that surround the major ports and other businesses right that 186 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 3: are of key importance to certain actors, and also are 187 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 3: key electoral factors because this is where the majority of 188 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 3: pipe art. And beyond that, whenever there are street protests 189 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 3: or any demonstrations of that nature, they are often starting 190 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 3: in these communities. And so control over these communities is 191 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 3: extraordinarily important for the political and economically. And so while 192 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 3: this has been a phenomenon that has deep roots, and 193 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 3: some of these groups do have legitimate ties to their communities. 194 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 3: They're not entirely divorced from that. But when we saw 195 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: this big influx of money and new weapons coming into 196 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 3: these groups really began in twenty seventeen twenty eighteen especially, 197 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: and what was happening at that time were nationwide anti 198 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: corruption protests targeting the government and calling for accountability and 199 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 3: end to state impunity and for real changes to the 200 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 3: system of governance that was in place. And the traditional 201 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: folks in Haiti who've held power and influence for a 202 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: long time, many of them responded by directly working with arming, 203 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,479 Speaker 3: funding and organizing these arm groups in order to basically 204 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 3: break that mobilization that was calling for chain and so 205 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 3: we can see their rise I think directly linked to 206 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 3: these political interests, and it's not to say that they 207 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 3: are today entirely controlled by those same political or economic actors. 208 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: I think there's a number of issues. Some of them 209 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 3: certainly are involved in transnational criminal networks that involve drug trafficking. 210 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 3: Arms trafficking has also exploded, so there are bigger factors 211 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: and external factors. But also I think we can't divorce 212 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 3: what's happened with Zombie. From the political reality. 213 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: Are there an identifiable number of discrete gangs that are 214 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: coherent and organized. 215 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 3: The estimates say there's somewhere around two hundred different arm 216 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: groups in the capitol and surrounding area, and traditionally, over 217 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 3: the last number of years, they've largely been consolidated with 218 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: some disparate actors under two broad coalitions that have largely 219 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: been fighting one another over the last couple of years. 220 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: And the big change that we've seen in the last 221 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 3: few weeks is that they have all now apparently begun 222 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: coordinating together and are working together instead of fighting one another, 223 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 3: and have turned their guns. 224 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 2: On the state itself. 225 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: And so that is obviously a significant change from what 226 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 3: had happened before and has led to what we've seen 227 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: in terms of attacks on police stations, the National Penitentiary, 228 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 3: the prison and state institutions themselves. 229 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,359 Speaker 1: As I understand it, this sort of began to coalesce 230 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: in October of twenty one with a coalition of nine 231 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: prominent gangs that became known as the g Nine and 232 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: it's leaders a former police officer Jimmy Cherizier, who's known 233 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,959 Speaker 1: as Barbecue. I mean, if this is almost like a movie. 234 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: To what degree are the gangs beginning to create a 235 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: coherence structure that could in fact directly compete with the 236 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: state for control of the country. 237 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 2: It's a good question, an important one. 238 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of things we don't know here, 239 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: and the situation remains incredibly influx and so I'm going 240 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 3: to be careful not to give too many predictions about 241 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: the future because things are changing hour to hour on 242 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: the ground and putting together arm groups that two weeks 243 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: ago we're fighting each other and now are ostensibly fighting 244 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: to overthrow the system and change the state. That is 245 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 3: obviously a very fraught thing with internal difficulties, in competition 246 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 3: for power, and different interests behind each actor, and so 247 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 3: what their ultimate end goal is I think remains very unclear. 248 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 3: And mentioned the political connections, and I think this is 249 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 3: the reality that's even happening right now, and it's very 250 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 3: clear to see there's a sort of perception that these 251 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 3: arm groups are seeking to take over the state themselves 252 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: right now or exercising state control. Neither of those seems 253 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: to be true as far as I can tell. Their 254 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: political support seems to be for this individual Gi Philippe, 255 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: who has been sort of putting forth his own government 256 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: to take power in the midst of this transition process 257 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 3: that is slowly forming taking shape over the last couple 258 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 3: of weeks. And so there seems to be a direct 259 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: at least coordination, if not outright direct organizational relationship between 260 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 3: the arm groups and these political actors such as g 261 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: Philip who were seeking to take power for themselves. 262 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: There's a countervailing group known as Ja Caley, which is 263 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: a vigilanti group that's out killing gang members, the. 264 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 3: Boisc Alai movement, a citizen justice movement. Look, this is 265 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 3: a state that has failed the population for a long 266 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: long time. I was talking about that dynamic earlier. And 267 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 3: when the state is not able to step in and 268 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 3: protect a population and people are forced to choose between 269 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 3: sitting back and being terrorized and facing debt themselves or 270 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: fighting back, I think we can understand that response. Whether 271 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 3: you think it is right or just, or legal or 272 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: moral or anything. I think we do have to understand 273 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: the desperation that causes this and the underlying context that 274 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 3: leads to these sorts of outcomes. And look, we've seen 275 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 3: it in recent days. I mean, the police force in 276 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: Haiti has been politicized, decimated, and it should be noted 277 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 3: has received the majority of its funding from international actors 278 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 3: for decades, but they have done nothing to actually strengthen 279 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: the institution and have watched it be politicized by leaders 280 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: in Haiti who are backed by the United States and 281 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 3: are directly undermining these police forces. And so this creates 282 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 3: a very challenging dynamic. And where we've seen success on 283 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 3: the security front, it has largely been with police working 284 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 3: directly with communities, because the only way a police force 285 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 3: is going to be able to bring some order situation 286 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 3: is if they have the trust of the population, and 287 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 3: so when you see that coordination happening, that is what 288 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: has actually been effective on the ground, certainly in the 289 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 3: last couple of weeks and really for the last many years. 290 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: Do we, in our paid program help the police or 291 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: do we in fact undermine them with policies that don't work. 292 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: The great contradiction in US AID policies more generally, right, 293 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: I mean, often the aid itself is not what's causing 294 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: the problem, but we try and silo everything out, so 295 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 3: we think we can do these different things, whether it 296 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 3: be health or education or security, but we don't understand 297 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: or appreciate the longer effects and the way that our 298 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 3: foreign policy and our political intervention directly undermines any effort 299 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: we have, even if it could work, it's going to 300 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 3: be undermined by a political situation that again the United 301 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 3: States and other countries have a significant role in shaping. 302 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: And so yes, the US and other donors have provided 303 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 3: tens hundreds of millions of dollars, probably billions of dollars 304 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: to the panage to the National Police as an institution 305 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: over the last twenty thirty years. 306 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: Is that been good or bad? 307 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: Well, we can look at the police today and look 308 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 3: at their capacity and say it's bad. But it's not 309 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 3: just bad because of the nature of the aid. It's 310 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 3: bad because all the rest of the policies and the 311 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: political choices that we're making at the leadership also impact 312 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 3: all of these other things. 313 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: Are we trapped into the leadership we back because it 314 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: is in fact the structure of Haiti? I mean it 315 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,160 Speaker 1: would be impossible for us to step in and try 316 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: to create a healthy, reform leadership with sort of coherent 317 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: policies that tried to move the country to a better future. 318 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,439 Speaker 3: I don't think the US needs to be trapped. I 319 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: think they're acting like they have and I think we 320 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 3: see this right now. The State Department backed de facto 321 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: prime minister who was deeply unpopular for the last thirty 322 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 3: months following the assassination of Release, and that was in 323 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 3: the face of amazing organizing that was happening in Haiti 324 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: trying to put forth governance structures and roadmaps to restore 325 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 3: democracy in the country, and those efforts were continually rejected 326 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: and undermined. And we stayed with this guy, Henri because 327 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 3: he was there, because he was easy. Because changing horses 328 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: are going to some process that you don't know or 329 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 3: don't control, is an unknown, and for us policymakers, I 330 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 3: think the fear of the unknown is a real thing. 331 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 3: You'll stick with the horse you got because you know 332 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 3: them and you know that they're going to play with 333 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 3: the game, and so that unknown is scary. But you know, 334 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,920 Speaker 3: the reality is sticking with the known has not produced 335 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: any results, and in fact, i'd argue is basically blowing 336 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 3: up in our face right now. And so look, it's 337 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 3: going to take trying something different. It's going to take 338 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 3: choosing a different path, and that means not setting the 339 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 3: agenda not choosing what comes next, but providing space for 340 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 3: Haitians to actually take the lead and to support what 341 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: they come up with, rather than controlling the process that 342 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 3: comes up with what's next. 343 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: I mean, doesn't it sort of call for the Congress 344 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: and the American people to sort of ask for a 345 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 1: totally new approach. I was noting that one of the 346 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: points you make that the whole process of the United 347 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: Nations between twenty ten and twenty twenty allocating over thirteen 348 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: billion dollars. I mean, this is not a very big country, 349 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: and you'd think at some point the thirteen billion dollars 350 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 1: would have a positive impact. They may have had a 351 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: miliative interact and at least they minimized starvation, but it 352 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to me that they moved us towards a coherent, safe, 353 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: and prosperous Haiti. 354 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 3: No. 355 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: I think that's right. 356 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 3: This goes to why it does take everythink it does 357 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 3: take changing policies, because the reason why these things aren't 358 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 3: long term effective is certainly not only because of Haiti 359 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 3: or Haitians. It's because of how we actually provide this support. Yes, 360 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 3: the Unit Nations spent billions of dollars, but not all 361 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 3: of that money was spent in Haiti by any stretch 362 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: of the imagination. Same thing with the post earthquake aid. 363 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 3: You know, we hear these top line numbers ten billion dollars, 364 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 3: eight billion dollars, whatever it is, but that is not 365 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 3: what actually makes it onto the ground, and it is 366 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 3: very much not what actually makes it into the hands 367 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 3: of any patians in Haiti. Right, and so yeah, of 368 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 3: course it's not having the intended effect. If we want 369 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: to do better, if we want to do something different, 370 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 3: if we want to actually support a stable Haiti over 371 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 3: the long term, it's going to take the US, the 372 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 3: US Congress, the US Administration, and the US people sort 373 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: of demanding those changes and changing their policies so that 374 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 3: we're not just repeating these mistakes over and over and 375 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 3: over again. 376 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: It's almost like there's a foreign aid industry. 377 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 378 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 3: I say, the aid industrial complex is what I refer 379 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 3: to it in the book, and I think this is right. 380 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 3: I mean, we look at Haiti and we say, oh, 381 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 3: Haiti is corrupt, so we can't give money to the 382 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: Haitian government or Haitian institutions. But the justification is often, well, 383 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: we can hold us companies accountable for what they do 384 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 3: in other countries. 385 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 2: The reality is we don't. We just don't. 386 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: We gave hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of millions of 387 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: dollars to just a handful of contractors involved in the 388 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 3: aid and development space in Iraq and Afghanistan and then 389 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 3: in Haiti, and audit after audit shows poor results, lacks 390 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 3: financial management, and all of these things, tons of problems, 391 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 3: and yet we just keep doing it. We just keep 392 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 3: doing it again and again and again. And it leads 393 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: you to believe that for us in the United States, 394 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 3: the goal of this is not actually the development we 395 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 3: say it is, but something else, because why else would 396 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 3: you keep doing the same flawed thing over and over 397 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 3: and over again. 398 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: So it's actually profitable for the foreign aid industry, even 399 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: if it's not profitable for the people that supposedly we're 400 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: doing it for. 401 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: I often say this. You know, in many ways, US 402 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 3: foreign assistance has become as much a jobs program here 403 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 3: as it has in any place else, or certainly in Haiti. Look, 404 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 3: you know how it is in Congress. It's hard to 405 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 3: convince Congress to pass a foreign aid bill unless there's 406 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 3: something for individual constituents and for the US. We ship 407 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 3: food aid on US ships and it goes from excess 408 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 3: crops from US farmers, but that has a big impact 409 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 3: on the ground in Haiti. We make it harder for 410 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 3: Haiti to feed itself, and then we're act surprised when 411 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 3: Haitians are looking to come to the US. But we 412 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 3: have to look at some of these root causes that 413 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: are causing this and really simple changes that we could 414 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 3: make that could go a long way towards reversing that dynamic. 415 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: One of your points, this is a problem of as 416 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: you put in silos, but as we provided food aid, 417 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: we actually undermined local farmers. 418 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: Right exactly, We're taking away their market. 419 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 3: Free food aid in the aftermath of the earthquake. Like, yes, 420 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: I mean people do need food. I mean that's important, 421 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 3: but local farmers can't compete with free And in the end, 422 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 3: it's important that Haiti be able to feed itself and 423 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 3: not just be relying on aid continually. And that's important 424 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 3: for all sorts of reasons. It's important for Haiti's sovereignty, 425 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: it's important for the United States. This is in everyone's 426 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 3: interest to see that outcome. And yet these policies are 427 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 3: doing the exact opposite. Right now, there's a tremendous humanitarian 428 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 3: crisis in Haiti, more than a million right on the 429 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 3: edge of famine levels of hunger, and everyone wants to 430 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 3: act again. Everyone wants to do something, and I applaud 431 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: them for wanting to do something. It's good that we 432 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 3: want to do something, but we have to make sure 433 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 3: that something isn't going to repeat this cycle that we've 434 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 3: seen played out so many times in Haiti history and 435 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: in our history of involvement with Haiti. 436 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: As you point out in your books, you have such 437 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 1: depths of corruption in the Haitian system that, it seems 438 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: to me makes it almost impossible to really have an 439 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: honest aid program inside the country. So the aid program, 440 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: since they has to adapt to the realities of how 441 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: things work well, I. 442 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 3: Think to an extent, yes, from a very just realist perspective. 443 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 3: Right you put money into Haiti, and a Haitian takes 444 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: money off the top in corruption. 445 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 2: It's only eighty percent that makes it to the ground. 446 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: You give money to a foreign contractor, they take twenty 447 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 3: percent off the top and pay salaries in Washington, and 448 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 3: only eighty percent makes it to the ground. The actual 449 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: impact is not what we're talking about here. And look, 450 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 3: I think there are ways to hold actors accountable. I mean, 451 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 3: so for the US, Okay, it's corruption an issue. You 452 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: have oversight of the money, you demand transparency, and if 453 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 3: there are instances of corruption, you would alert the appropriate 454 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 3: authorities in Haiti, the justice system, the anti corruption units, 455 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 3: and urge them to instigate and bring a case. But instead, 456 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 3: what we've done traditionally is give money, know exactly who's 457 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 3: stealing it and who's being corrupt, and then we don't 458 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 3: say anything because we're backing those people politically and we 459 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 3: don't want to do anything to undermind their governance in Haiti, 460 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 3: and so we're reinforcing this corruption throughout each of these interventions. 461 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 3: And this was the dynamic certainly in Haiti after the earthquake, 462 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 3: where it was a real political liability. You had Hillary Clinton, 463 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: you had Bill Clinton taking outsize roles in the reconstruction effort, 464 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 3: and so it was no secret that there was corruption 465 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 3: in the Haitian government, but a scandal like that would 466 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 3: have had domestic political implications here. And so there are 467 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 3: reasons well beyond Haiti that we don't push for further 468 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 3: accountability and end to impunity in Haiti, and the sad 469 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: reality is it's often domestic political considerations that end up 470 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 3: having a big role in shaping foreign policy decisions. 471 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: It struck me years ago that if you look at 472 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: a map of that island, you can tell from overhead 473 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: satellite pictures where the Dominican Republic is and where Haiti is, 474 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: and it is so stark and so immediate that it's 475 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: almost a stunning case study in the cultural impact of 476 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 1: two different systems on the same island. In your judgment, 477 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: is it possible to help migrate Haiti to a sustainable, 478 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: long term pattern towards freedom and the rule of law 479 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: and prosperity, or is that such a big jump that 480 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 1: Haiti thirty years from now will probably still be a 481 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: basket case hoping people send money first. 482 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: I think it's going to take a change in policy 483 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 3: from countries like the United States, from the United Nations, 484 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: from France, from Canada. We got to change ourselves, given 485 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 3: the role that we continue to play in Haiti, and 486 00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: we're going to have to take a step back and 487 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: let you do it. I have supreme faith in Haiti's 488 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,880 Speaker 3: ability to do that. If given the opportunity. I want 489 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 3: to go back to this dynamic. Michelle rolf Trio is 490 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 3: a famous Haitian historian, and he has this concept of 491 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 3: state first nation that you have the Haitian state, and 492 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: it has always been in opposition to the nation the 493 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 3: actual people of Haiti. And I think the sad reality 494 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 3: is that foreign interventions and foreign policies, including our aid 495 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: and trade policies, have really served to only reinforce that 496 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 3: dynamic of a weak state that represents very narrow interests 497 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 3: and not the interests of the majority of the population. 498 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 3: And so long as that dynamic continues, the instability in 499 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 3: Haiti will continue. Quite frankly, it's an unsustainable status quo, 500 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,439 Speaker 3: and I think for the role of international actors is 501 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 3: what role or what changes can we make to stop 502 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 3: perpetuating that, to try and stop propping. 503 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: Up that unsustainable status quo, but. 504 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: Allow Haitians to change their system of governance and their 505 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 3: relationship between state and nation. 506 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: So if the next administration came to you and said 507 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: give us a roadmap, you could come in and say 508 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: this is the new model, and we're doing this new model, 509 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: and the rest of you have to figure out how 510 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: you're going to adapt to this new model. Because we're 511 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: not going to try to figure out how to change you. So, 512 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 1: if somebody came to you and said, Okay, we would 513 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: like to have a program to enable the people of 514 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: Haiti to have a dramatically better future, could you create 515 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: a roadmap? 516 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you who can create a roadmap. People 517 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 2: in Haiti. They're doing it. 518 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 3: They're putting that together, they're coming up with roadmaps, they're 519 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 3: organizing around what they want to see happen in the future. 520 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 3: And I think that's an important dynamic. There is tremendous 521 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 3: capacity in Haiti. Asian people are more than capable of 522 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 3: doing this, but they're trapped. They're trapped by a political 523 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 3: and economic class that has not had their interest at 524 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 3: heart and continues to be empowered by the actions of 525 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 3: the national community. And so the simple thing to tell 526 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 3: any administration is stop working the people you've been working with, 527 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 3: stop listening to the people you've been listening to, and 528 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 3: open your ears and open your eyes to what's actually 529 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: happening in Haiti. And so you know, there are plenty 530 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: of people who are coming up with these plans, who 531 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,120 Speaker 3: are working hard to try and implement them, but there 532 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 3: are barriers, and I think we can also view. 533 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 2: What's happening right now. 534 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 3: I mean, the title of the book is aid State, 535 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 3: and it's a corrective to the notion of a failed state. 536 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: It's a recognition that the state in Haiti is the 537 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 3: product as much of external interference and external choices as 538 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 3: the choice of the Haitian people. But it's collapse, which 539 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 3: make no mistake. I don't like the term failed state, 540 00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 3: but the state is failing. The state has failed the 541 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 3: population for a long long time. It is collapsing right now, 542 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: and that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity to reset the 543 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 3: relationship between state and nation. It's an opportunity to reset 544 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 3: and refound the state based on real principles of freedom 545 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 3: inequality in Haiti, and that can happen right I am 546 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: optimistic about Haiti's future today, just despite the dire situation 547 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 3: that's taking place right now today. 548 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: How do you reach beyond the state to find the 549 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: people to listen to who are capable of organizing one 550 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: knowing that the traditional lease in the state that they 551 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: have sheltered in will oppose you, and two, how do 552 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: you then legitimize getting the ideas and the information from 553 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: the people who by your own definition, are outside the 554 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: structure of power to begin with. 555 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: It doesn't happen overnight, right, This is not something that 556 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 3: any country or any person can snap their fingers and 557 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: all of a sudden there's a perfectly legitimate government in 558 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 3: Haiti that everyone respects and is doing something new. 559 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: I mean, it's a process. I think that's the best 560 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 2: I could say. 561 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 3: And the process starts with having conversations with folks in Haiti, 562 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: with folks outside of the capital. Means reaching out and 563 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 3: actually opening doors to these folks in Haiti who have 564 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 3: been systematically excluded from these conversations. If the US wants 565 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 3: to be playing a positive role, it can help open 566 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 3: those doors. It can help provide that space. But it 567 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 3: can't close the doors and determine who's in the room, right, 568 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 3: So there's going to have to be a negotiation. There'll 569 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 3: have to be a debate amongst Haitians, and it's going 570 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: to have to involve people who are connected to the elite, 571 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: people who are connected to the political world. But it's 572 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 3: also going to have to include a lot of other 573 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 3: people who haven't had that representation. And so again, can 574 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: international actors play a facilitating role in that process. 575 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: I'd like to think so, but I'd also ask. 576 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,239 Speaker 3: For a little proof before putting my total faith in it, 577 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 3: because we've seen it go a very different direction in 578 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 3: the past when international actors get involved, and so again, 579 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 3: it's possible, but it's going to take change on all 580 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 3: sides of the equation. 581 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: Is there much to be gained or is there much 582 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: potential for encouraging and mobilizing the patient diaspora in the 583 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: US to be helpful back in Haiti, Or is it 584 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: difference in their two worlds so radical that is not 585 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: really a practical thing. 586 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 3: I think it's an important conversation, and I think to 587 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 3: be with it, I mean, they're already playing an important 588 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: role because Haiti is one of the most remittance dependent 589 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 3: countries on the planet. The diaspora is sending twenty percent 590 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 3: of GDP to Haiti every single year, so the only 591 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,959 Speaker 3: way a huge part of the population Haiti survives is 592 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: through the support of the diaspora. But the diaspora is 593 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 3: also not part of the political environment. They can't run 594 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 3: for political things like this, and so there are ways 595 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: to try and bridge these divides to try and get 596 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 3: the diaspora more involved, more engaged with the realities on 597 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: the ground and to build those connections. Then I think 598 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 3: there's a lot of efforts that are taking place. I 599 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 3: think the diaspora can play other important roles. We've seen 600 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 3: this with many other countries. Is the role the diaspora 601 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 3: can play in shifting US policy, in becoming a political 602 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 3: force here to demand the kinds of changes that we've 603 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 3: been having today, because it will take change, and it 604 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 3: will take people pushing for that change, and so the 605 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: diaspora can certainly play also a role here that will 606 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 3: have a tremendous impact on the people of Haiti. 607 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 2: If they can. 608 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 3: Organize and push for these kinds of changes, that would 609 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 3: make a material difference in how the world and how 610 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 3: the US interacts with Haiti. 611 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: That's really helpful, Jake, want to thank you for joining me. 612 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: Your new book, Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, and 613 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: the Battle to Control Haiti is available now on Amazon 614 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: and bookstores everywhere. We'll have a link to it on 615 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: our show page, and I really encourage everyone who's concerned 616 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: about the crisis in Haiti to pick up a copy. 617 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: I think you have very powerful and very important insights 618 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: into the reality of what's going on there. I really 619 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,600 Speaker 1: appreciate you are taking the time to educate me and 620 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: hopefully help educate all of our listeners. 621 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 622 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Jake Johnston. You can get 623 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: a link to buy his new book Aid State, Elite, Panic, Disaster, Capitalism, 624 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:55,160 Speaker 1: and the Battle to Control Haiti on our show page 625 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by Game 626 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,400 Speaker 1: of three sixty and iHeart Media. Our executive producer is 627 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 1: Guernsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 628 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 629 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: the team at Gingrish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 630 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 631 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 632 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 633 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: of newts World can sign up for my three free 634 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: weekly columns at gingristre sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 635 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.