1
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:06,640
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.

2
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 2: I'm welcome to Stuff'll Ever Tell You production of iHeartRadio,

3
00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,880
Speaker 2: and welcome to another edition of book Club. Quick content

4
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,119
Speaker 2: warning before we get into this, we are going to

5
00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:33,000
Speaker 2: talk about controlling religions, patriarchy and religions, bad stuff and religions,

6
00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:39,960
Speaker 2: yeast trauma, religious drama, cr past religious drama episodes, and

7
00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,159
Speaker 2: are episodes on women and cults. Also, this is a

8
00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,200
Speaker 2: new book. It came out in twenty twenty two, so spoilers.

9
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,239
Speaker 2: So yeah, we've been we've been really going in for

10
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 2: the new new material and cults. I don't know, I know,

11
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:57,160
Speaker 2: it's just a thing.

12
00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: We're gonna do it now, guess I guess, so I

13
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:00,440
Speaker 1: guess thing.

14
00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,680
Speaker 2: Fine, it's it's just a thing we're in. That's all right.

15
00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 2: So this will probably be a shorter one. It's a

16
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 2: shorter book. Graphic novels, graphic novel, right, yeah, graphic novel.

17
00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:14,800
Speaker 2: But you never know, we get to going. It could

18
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 2: go on and on, but today we are talking about

19
00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,119
Speaker 2: the twenty twenty two graphic novel Cult Girls, written by

20
00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 2: Natalie Grant and illustrated by Cassandra Bolin. It focuses on

21
00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,840
Speaker 2: Talia a young woman who was raised as Jehovah's witness

22
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 2: and with the help of a friend, is fading or

23
00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:38,800
Speaker 2: slowly extricating herself from it, and Talia slowly explores parts

24
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 2: of the world she hadn't previously through that traveling, college, work, relationships, motherhood,

25
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,000
Speaker 2: all while navigating family and friends that are still j

26
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,280
Speaker 2: W's Jehovah's witnesses. Talia's story is specifically based on the

27
00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 2: author's own negative experience with Jehovah's witnesses. And note the

28
00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 2: author in this story or is focusing on her own time, yes,

29
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 2: but also going back to our Religious Trauma mini series,

30
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:09,279
Speaker 2: there is the potential for this in so many religions

31
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,120
Speaker 2: and examples of this in so many religions, So just

32
00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,720
Speaker 2: to keep that in mind, I did want to read

33
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,720
Speaker 2: the opening excerpt that's introducing what this graphic novel is

34
00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 2: going to be. Talia and Colt Girls is an inspired

35
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,239
Speaker 2: story of my life as a young divorce Californian woman

36
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,040
Speaker 2: who've left. The story also covers the inspiring and support

37
00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,400
Speaker 2: of friends I had along the way, telling how they

38
00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,720
Speaker 2: were able to find new purposes in their lives, specifically

39
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,760
Speaker 2: how they, like myself, dealt with the reality of being raised, married,

40
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 2: and eventually having rejected this particular suppressive religion. It's a

41
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,720
Speaker 2: beautiful story filled with hope, romance, female empowerment, and self exploration,

42
00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,800
Speaker 2: with therapeutic humor throughout the journey. Once you've left a cult,

43
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,400
Speaker 2: take it from me, flashbacks remain while the root teens

44
00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,720
Speaker 2: and doctrines take some more time to break. Cult Girls

45
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,080
Speaker 2: can be appreciated by those who have left a similarly

46
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:10,640
Speaker 2: suppressive religion and or had experience with oppressive relationships and

47
00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:16,079
Speaker 2: misguided parental control. And then I wanted to include this.

48
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,520
Speaker 2: This is at the end first quote from a review

49
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,680
Speaker 2: from Trina Robbins. This beautifully illustrated graphic novel pertains to

50
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 2: any cult, nicely and clearly written. It's a good, if

51
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:33,359
Speaker 2: herring story. And then, Cult Girls, based on a true story,

52
00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,240
Speaker 2: tells the tale of Talia and her friends as they

53
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,480
Speaker 2: struggle with growing suspicions that their faith is a patriarchal

54
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 2: religious cult. It's a story of tremendous courage and female

55
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 2: empowerment as Talia and her friends successfully free themselves, told

56
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,920
Speaker 2: through a feminist lens with cautionary humor. So one thing

57
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 2: I did find interesting about this is that it's very

58
00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,839
Speaker 2: as we were talking about this before, it's very informational.

59
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:00,520
Speaker 2: It's got a lot of facts in it. It feels kind

60
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 2: of like a pamphlet, you know. It feels sort of

61
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,360
Speaker 2: like the opposite of the religious pamphlet. It's sort of like, hey,

62
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 2: you just got that pamphlet, here's this one. Yeah.

63
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,240
Speaker 1: I guess it would be hard not to because you

64
00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 1: have to understand why what she does is so shocking

65
00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,919
Speaker 1: and or anti to that religion. So she has to

66
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:23,920
Speaker 1: give you excerpts of like this is part of the law,

67
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: and this is part of what they do, and this

68
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,159
Speaker 1: is part of the tradition. We kind of talk about

69
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:32,680
Speaker 1: that in our episodes of Our Christian Trauma Religious Trauma,

70
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,680
Speaker 1: because I talk about my own experiences and there's a

71
00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 1: lot I think I was similar to what I had

72
00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,080
Speaker 1: explained what happened with us about like the witnesses and

73
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,440
Speaker 1: about being called out in the middle of church and

74
00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,200
Speaker 1: being told you can't be a part of like are

75
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 1: excommunicated essentially, and you're being told you're no longer a member.

76
00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 1: But it doesn't go to the point of like where

77
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,960
Speaker 1: she talks about like that other people cannot communicate with you,

78
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: or they would be seen as also a part of

79
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,400
Speaker 1: that world or whatever world they think. The pants stuff,

80
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:03,440
Speaker 1: all of that was very familiar. So even though I

81
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,920
Speaker 1: did I have, my religion that I grew up in

82
00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,200
Speaker 1: was very fearful of the Jehovah's witness. And I'm saying

83
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,600
Speaker 1: this in a way of like my religion, my church

84
00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,120
Speaker 1: that I grew up in hated anything except their own

85
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: point of view, so they believed anything else was blasphemous.

86
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,359
Speaker 1: So even like I think I said, this Southern Baptist

87
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,719
Speaker 1: was like no, as well as like Church of Christ

88
00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 1: absolutely not Catholics, Oh my god, you know, like as

89
00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 1: Foreman's Ah, Jehovah's witness, like all of those things, but

90
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,120
Speaker 1: they try to revere them in a way. So when

91
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 1: we would have friends that would come over that were

92
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 1: Jehovah's witness and I would be told, oh, we can't

93
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,720
Speaker 1: invite them to birthday parties, and I was like what

94
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: I remember being told this about a friend and being told, Hey,

95
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 1: this is their their beliefs, don't question it, like you know.

96
00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,160
Speaker 1: So we were told to be respireful, but like at

97
00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 1: the same time, my church was like, oh, they're they're

98
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 1: not the Good Church. And this not again, not just

99
00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,360
Speaker 1: the Jehovah's Witness, I mean like every other religion and

100
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,159
Speaker 1: every other belief, even if it's in the same denomination. Nope, nope, no,

101
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,440
Speaker 1: not as good as us, which is very familiar to

102
00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:08,280
Speaker 1: her story.

103
00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And I didn't really write a plot out

104
00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 2: for this because it's essentially there's some flashbacks of her

105
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:23,599
Speaker 2: as a child with her family. She has a really fun,

106
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,360
Speaker 2: kind of depressing thing at the beginning where she breaks

107
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,040
Speaker 2: down the characters with the little bios and it's like

108
00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,960
Speaker 2: her mom has gone through this abuse, her dad is abusive, right,

109
00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:38,920
Speaker 2: her friends who are what they're going through, and so

110
00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,920
Speaker 2: you do get flashbacks from her childhood, but it's largely

111
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:48,520
Speaker 2: her coming to realize through the help of friends, are

112
00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:52,279
Speaker 2: just kind of growing up and going out to the world, yeah,

113
00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,560
Speaker 2: that this is not a religion that is for her,

114
00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,359
Speaker 2: and dealing with all of that baggage, because when you

115
00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 2: do grow up in religion, it's hard to shake that off.

116
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:10,320
Speaker 2: It's really really, really difficult. And her like seeing these

117
00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,360
Speaker 2: new things and learning these new things, and throughout is

118
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:20,760
Speaker 2: that fear, as you mentioned, if she gets excommunicated, if

119
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,840
Speaker 2: she gets kicked out. Yeah, then the people in her

120
00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,520
Speaker 2: life who are still Jehovah's witnesses can't talk to her.

121
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,720
Speaker 2: That's it. Like, if they still want to stay in

122
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 2: which presumably they do, they do, they can't talk to her,

123
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,240
Speaker 2: So that's the end. So she's sort of trying to

124
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,360
Speaker 2: push it off for as long as she can, and

125
00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 2: then eventually she does. What's it called she gets announced?

126
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:55,240
Speaker 1: I think, Yeah, the story obviously is kind of her

127
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,400
Speaker 1: explaining her life. It feels like as she is talking

128
00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: about how different she is and being and we're gonna

129
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,000
Speaker 1: talk about in the plot of the book, she uh

130
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,800
Speaker 1: gets into a new relationship and she's like, oh my god,

131
00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to tell them all these things, and

132
00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:10,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sound like such an odd ball, like he's

133
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,720
Speaker 1: gonna be like, what the hell type of thing. It

134
00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 1: feels like it is her trying to explain herself in

135
00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,480
Speaker 1: a comedic form in a graphic novel and trying to

136
00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:21,280
Speaker 1: be like, this is who I am, this is why

137
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 1: I am this way, so here you go, which I

138
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:25,600
Speaker 1: think a lot of people would be like, yeah, that's

139
00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: exactly what I went through as well. On a deeper level,

140
00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 1: like she talks about at one point never seen a

141
00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 1: rated R movie. So every time he'd be like, have

142
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,079
Speaker 1: you watched this? Have you wish She's like, no, I

143
00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 1: don't even know what that is. I don't know what

144
00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,280
Speaker 1: that means. I don't know you like trying to explain

145
00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:41,160
Speaker 1: her like this is why I'm so different, let me

146
00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,200
Speaker 1: show you. And I feel like this was her kind

147
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,080
Speaker 1: of ode to herself and others around her, her newfound family,

148
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,320
Speaker 1: like this is who I am. Uh so, here you go,

149
00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,400
Speaker 1: good luck yea, and her like first steps out into

150
00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:58,599
Speaker 1: publishing that and revealing herself yes.

151
00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,839
Speaker 2: Yes, because it's kind of broken down like that. It's

152
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 2: kind of broken down like R rated movie travel, like

153
00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 2: you know, themes like that, and having a short scene

154
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:15,040
Speaker 2: that demonstrates, oh, this is why I wasn't I'd never

155
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 2: experienced that or I felt like I was being strange

156
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 2: around that or something. And yet so she gets in,

157
00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:26,840
Speaker 2: She finds friends that find kind of solace in each other.

158
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,840
Speaker 2: Then she finds this relationship, and then eventually she gets

159
00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,240
Speaker 2: a job, She goes to college, she has a baby,

160
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,400
Speaker 2: or she's about to have a baby. She finds out

161
00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 2: she's pregnant. But yeah, the plot is essentially her balancing

162
00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,440
Speaker 2: wanting to keep the people still in religion in her life,

163
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,240
Speaker 2: but wanting to also leave that behind and move on

164
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,000
Speaker 2: and do these other things. So yeah, with that, oh,

165
00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,920
Speaker 2: I would say probably one of the biggest themes is

166
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,959
Speaker 2: kind of you you're controlling family and your controlling religion

167
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:06,480
Speaker 2: and growing up in that. So in this case, she

168
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,320
Speaker 2: would be called a fader. And those are people that

169
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,680
Speaker 2: try to fade out of this religion without a formal announcement,

170
00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,839
Speaker 2: because again, if you get the announcement, that's it. You

171
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 2: can appeal and you can like try to get back in,

172
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 2: but you try to avoid it. And I do think

173
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,400
Speaker 2: this is not unique to Jehovah's witnesses. We've talked about

174
00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 2: this before, but I do think it was interesting the

175
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:38,400
Speaker 2: sort of understanding that people were all trying to cheat

176
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 2: the system in some way and or like people just

177
00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,000
Speaker 2: weren't following the rules in private that they were saying

178
00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,119
Speaker 2: in public right.

179
00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: Right, And it was obviously like more women than men

180
00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,200
Speaker 1: that were being being called out, which was funny because

181
00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: they couldn't talk in the church. Yeah, which is yeah,

182
00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,200
Speaker 1: that's with a lot of religions. We talked about that before.

183
00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,240
Speaker 1: The misogyny in religions in general, and this is no

184
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 1: different from almost all westernized religions.

185
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and it is true that this is and

186
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,680
Speaker 2: here we're talking about her experience specifically, was a very

187
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 2: intense experience in terms of the ways they try to

188
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 2: keep you in of the like loss of family of

189
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 2: friends if you leave the being isolated. Perhaps this is

190
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 2: like all you know, the only community you know, And

191
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 2: that's something we've talked about before on perhaps not the

192
00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,040
Speaker 2: same scale, but in a lot of places, being a

193
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:47,560
Speaker 2: part of the church is important, like that is where

194
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 2: you get your community, Where you get your community or

195
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,079
Speaker 2: what have you. So to have that just cut off

196
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,920
Speaker 2: and have everybody sort of judge you, especially in like

197
00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: a small town, because there was a lot of scenes

198
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 2: of her like walking around and there'd be people like

199
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,360
Speaker 2: whispering behind their hands as she passed, to feel like

200
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 2: you lose that, especially if you're in a vulnerable place.

201
00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 2: That's where that's where a lot of cults really work,

202
00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:19,199
Speaker 2: is if you're in a vulnerable place, and this is

203
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:24,880
Speaker 2: where you get your community. Also throughout based on that

204
00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,480
Speaker 2: is she's constantly debating with her family, she's trying to

205
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 2: do it in a way that is like I'll show you,

206
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,439
Speaker 2: you know, there's more to life than this, but also

207
00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,920
Speaker 2: not wanting them to abandon her or isolate her or

208
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,760
Speaker 2: freak out. I guess, like trying to manage their feelings

209
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,360
Speaker 2: around it, because they always kept coming back to this

210
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:57,080
Speaker 2: religion and it being a constant thing in her life,

211
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,680
Speaker 2: and when she would talk to them, when she would

212
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,360
Speaker 2: introduce them to like her new boyfriend for instance, and

213
00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,200
Speaker 2: they're immediately, you've got to get married right now, and

214
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,760
Speaker 2: you've got to move in and you've got to become

215
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,480
Speaker 2: a jobes witness or else. Right, it's just a lot

216
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:19,040
Speaker 2: to deal with, yes, mm hmmm, Yes, I'm also there

217
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:24,960
Speaker 2: was discussion of being forbidden from associating with members of

218
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:31,200
Speaker 2: the religion if you leave, and public shaming, public shaming.

219
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,560
Speaker 2: I feel like we talked about this briefly too, But

220
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,880
Speaker 2: in churches when they do the you know, this person

221
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,480
Speaker 2: has not been showing up or they've done X, Y

222
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 2: and Z, we should pray for them, like very publicly

223
00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,839
Speaker 2: within your community probably, Yeah, calling you out and how

224
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,240
Speaker 2: that can shame you and keep you in something that

225
00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,439
Speaker 2: you might not want to be in, right mm hmm.

226
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,400
Speaker 2: There is a scene that really illustrates that point. Later

227
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,679
Speaker 2: when again she's getting called in by the elders, uh,

228
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,360
Speaker 2: who are questioning why she hasn't been to to so

229
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 2: many meetings or what have you, and they're asking her

230
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,000
Speaker 2: really really inappropriate sexual questions.

231
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:21,720
Speaker 1: Yeah.

232
00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 2: And they're like a group of older dudes and they're

233
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:28,680
Speaker 2: just asking her of these questions that they feel perfectly

234
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,600
Speaker 2: within their right to ask to potentially kick her out.

235
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:37,600
Speaker 1: Yep, like you were saying, shame her after the fact

236
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 1: or during the fact. Because there were many incidents in

237
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,400
Speaker 1: which the pastor would speak on specific incidents so that

238
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 1: they could whisper about who oh who did that?

239
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 2: Oh was her right?

240
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:54,560
Speaker 1: Which I've seen happen at my own dredge. Yeah, yeah, l.

241
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,520
Speaker 2: Speaking of Yike's, another big theme was the apocalypse, right,

242
00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,160
Speaker 2: which is a big part of a lot of religions. Yes,

243
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,480
Speaker 2: but it was throughout kind of this idea of, well,

244
00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 2: the apocalypse is going to come, so why should we

245
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 2: care for the land or why should we voach, or

246
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,040
Speaker 2: why should we do this? Why should I get good grades?

247
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,520
Speaker 1: Like? Yeah, and historically this is not the only religion

248
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 1: that would do this, but they really have specific years.

249
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 1: So the original founders of the Jehovah's Witness thought that

250
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:40,120
Speaker 1: when he started this specific religion and being enlightened to

251
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: do this religion, that the end of the world was

252
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 1: gonna be two years later, which is I think it

253
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: was like nineteen seventy something in which he was like,

254
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 1: it's about to be the end of the world. So

255
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: they often reset, they do, and with that believing that

256
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,600
Speaker 1: that will fix everything. So there's nothing to fix. It's

257
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,360
Speaker 1: kind of like that predetermination type of thing, predestined so

258
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: that it is what it is. So you don't need

259
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,640
Speaker 1: to help anyone other than they need to find Jesus

260
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:08,360
Speaker 1: or not Jesus, they need to be a part of

261
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 1: Jehovah's Witness, which is Jesus.

262
00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean we've talked about this before. This

263
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 2: is not unique, as we said to Jehovah's witnesses. But

264
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,120
Speaker 2: when you're a kid, that idea of apocalypse and like hell,

265
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,800
Speaker 2: it could really mess you up. I can stay with you.

266
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,680
Speaker 1: Well, there was one specific drawing where the sister is

267
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 1: so scared for her her sister and she's picturing her

268
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 1: in hell, like she's like, you're so miserable now because

269
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: you're falling away from Jehovah that all I can imagine

270
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,360
Speaker 1: is you're going to be unhappier because you're going to

271
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 1: be in hell.

272
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, And we talked about that in our Religious

273
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,640
Speaker 2: Trauma series. I've heard that from people like I'm afraid

274
00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:59,960
Speaker 2: you're going to go to Hell, so I'm trying to

275
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 2: help you. Yeah, and I understand. But it's also like, well, yeah,

276
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 2: I guess.

277
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,639
Speaker 1: It is what it is, but it's such an odd

278
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:19,440
Speaker 1: context because their apocalypse typically like the idea of good deeds, yes,

279
00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,760
Speaker 1: is in other religions and not that Jehovah's witness don't.

280
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,840
Speaker 1: But their good deed is to go out and do

281
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,200
Speaker 1: their work, do their witnessing and giving out pamphlets while

282
00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: everything else is up to Jehovah. Or this is Jehovah's intent,

283
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: whether it is being the dude, what was it. I

284
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,120
Speaker 1: think it was the father when he did all those

285
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,760
Speaker 1: bad things. He's like, oh, Jehovah handled that. Jehovah.

286
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 2: That was his like.

287
00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: Resolve, or being like looking at boobs and being like,

288
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 1: I'm an amazing man and riding the bike. All that

289
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 1: is Jehovah. She's like, but what did you think about science?

290
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 1: Nos Jehovah like all of those in this reference because

291
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,399
Speaker 1: in the mind of everything's already paid for and for

292
00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 1: me as a man, and since I haven't been called

293
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,919
Speaker 1: out by the elders, who are the ultimate authority, I'm fine. Yeah,

294
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:12,160
Speaker 1: and apocalypse will take care of all everything essentially, That's

295
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: what I believe.

296
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah. She was definitely saying that was the

297
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:22,880
Speaker 2: vibe was why are we even here? The apocalypse will

298
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,119
Speaker 2: be better after that, And there was sort of a

299
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,159
Speaker 2: like self assured almost shot in Freuda of like, well,

300
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,639
Speaker 2: you didn't do what you had to do, so I

301
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,400
Speaker 2: will be in paradise and you shall be in hill.

302
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah. They're very number centric, but she talks about math

303
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 1: and she's like, this is not this is not math,

304
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 1: and he's like two plus two does not equal the

305
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 1: U two of you. I did like that reference.

306
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 2: I guess this is a good segue into one of

307
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 2: the biggest themes of the book. The graphic novel is

308
00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 2: definitely the patriarchy within religion. There's a quote pretty early

309
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,720
Speaker 2: on men are better than women. This is something we

310
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 2: did talk about in our religious trom episodes. I feel

311
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 2: like it comes up often when we speak about religion.

312
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,080
Speaker 2: But all the ways that that manifested in her life

313
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:18,960
Speaker 2: and how she witnessed it, and how it had an

314
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,760
Speaker 2: impact on her self esteem. And one of those things

315
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,720
Speaker 2: she witnessed was religious authorities who can only be men

316
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 2: and get a lot of exceptions to the rules, a

317
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,080
Speaker 2: lot of men doing wrong and being forgiven by the organization,

318
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,640
Speaker 2: and then a lot of clear sexism and who gets

319
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 2: kicked out and punished, meaning women were much more likely

320
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: to get punished, whereas men could be like, well, it's

321
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 2: Jehovah or whatever.

322
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: It's Jehovah. As well as like the skull argument, women's

323
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,160
Speaker 1: small heads are smaller and so they are not able

324
00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: to think as broadly like men who are much more intelligent.

325
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 1: Men are better because of schools. The elder Caleb, who

326
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: was her brother in law that pete at everyone that

327
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,800
Speaker 1: was a peeping tom that was doing sexually predatory stuff

328
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 1: was an elder. So he was like, no, no, no,

329
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: you misunderstood.

330
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. There was a lot of infuriating things about

331
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: the elders in this particular case. And then there was

332
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: another quote, I could lose my position as an elder

333
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: if my wife isn't being submissive, So it's it's also

334
00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 2: you have to do you have to be submissive, you

335
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,960
Speaker 2: have to do what I tell you. You have to make

336
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 2: me look good, even if I am perhaps a peeping tom. Right,

337
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: you are the one that is going to be punished

338
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,280
Speaker 2: in this or make me look bad, right, not this

339
00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:51,760
Speaker 2: thing that I did. Right, And going back to that

340
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 2: point of what I said earlier, the differences of how

341
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,399
Speaker 2: women and men are treated and who was forgiven within

342
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: this organization, there were several instances she pointed out of

343
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: gay pornography and probably underduraged gay pornography, pedophilia being taught

344
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 2: all worldly men. She do drugs and much porn constantly,

345
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 2: but she has these instances of them doing it.

346
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: Right so much so that that's one of the things

347
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 1: that she specializes in real life, like apparently, like she

348
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 1: wrote the fact that she works in helping to stand

349
00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 1: up for children who have been victims by religious predators,

350
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,439
Speaker 1: like because she's seen she has seen so much of

351
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 1: that She's like, absolutely not. And she even talks about

352
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 1: the fact that the marriage oftentimes are unequaled, young girls

353
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: who barely graduated high school if they did, marrying older

354
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: men and not really having a choice about it. She

355
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: does mention that briefly, but she got lucky and married

356
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 1: a dude that seemed okay but was not compatible with her,

357
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: and the gay porno was that big, bright shining light.

358
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 2: Yes of like.

359
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 1: Oh, as well as I'm stealing all the money.

360
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, so she did get married. We didn't mention

361
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 2: that she did get married prior to the guy she

362
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: meets later, who is one of the worldly men, as

363
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: they're called if you're outside of the religion, one of

364
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 2: the worldly men in it. Yeah, it did not go

365
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: well for multiple reasons, multiple reasons.

366
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 1: That will be two reasons.

367
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that expands. But yes, also, like I said, this

368
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: is sort of like a pamphlet. It has a lot

369
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 2: of facts in it. It's very it's a great story,

370
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,400
Speaker 2: but a lot of it is got you know, here's this, factors, this, factors,

371
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 2: this fact There's some stuff about homophobia in there, there's

372
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 2: stuff about racism in there, there is stuff about pedophilia

373
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: in there, and then there's a lot of discussion around

374
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 2: things like abortion. For here's a quote I uds are abortion.

375
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 2: There's a lot of discussion around sex being sinful and

376
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: discussing a source of shame, especially for women.

377
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, but at the same time as duty, yes,

378
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 1: called it the duties.

379
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 2: Yes, especially after well definitely after you're married only I

380
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 2: should say. But yeah. It was something she was really

381
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,120
Speaker 2: concerned about because it had been told to her her

382
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 2: whole life, and something she had to grapple with with

383
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: her new partner because that was your going to hell

384
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,920
Speaker 2: kind of violation. You don't do that right.

385
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: It was also one of those that which again happens

386
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: to most religions, that they are told that the father

387
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 1: continuously says, mary him, marry him before you, before you sin,

388
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,879
Speaker 1: before you sin, marry him. So that's the solution, like

389
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 1: the easy solution for you to have sexes to be married. Yes, yes,

390
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 1: so for him, I guess the dude rather than the women,

391
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: because you know, obviously women have no desire.

392
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: No desire, which does bring us to marriage. That was

393
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: a big theme, as you said, pushing children, especially women

394
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 2: to get married early. I'm saying that like you hear

395
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: that as a kid, but you weren't like super young

396
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: to being pushed to get married, yes, and not being

397
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: allowed to have sex before marriage, not being allowed to

398
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,640
Speaker 2: move in together before marriage. A lot of gossip around

399
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: that and what you might have done being pressured too,

400
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 2: as you said, put out once married, and also kind

401
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 2: of a dowry situation the father definitely later when it's

402
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 2: a worldly man, it's like, I can't afford to fay

403
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: for this. She's like, got it, uh.

404
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: Right, Well, that's kind of like in the tradition that

405
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: the man pays for the or the wife's family pays

406
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 1: for the wedding, which is that tradition instead of like

407
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 1: the goats. That was old school biblical ways in itself.

408
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, and again as a reminder about the I

409
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: feel like I may have talked over you about the

410
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: IUD thing, but any birth control was seen as abortion,

411
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 1: Like that needs to be a conversation, and not just IUDs,

412
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,959
Speaker 1: but like condoms, any kind of preventative measure is abortion

413
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: and against God's will. A lot of like we were

414
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: not going to talk about it, but the medical procedures

415
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: in general. She talks about the blood transfusion as well,

416
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 1: and we know that Jehovah's witnesses have that work that

417
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: they cannot do, that they cannot serve in the military,

418
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: they cannot vote, all these things because that is worldly things.

419
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: But yes, any kind of preventative birth control immediately know

420
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: because that is killing of children, as they would.

421
00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 2: Say, yeah, yep. And there's a scene later where after

422
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,639
Speaker 2: she has sex with Alan, her new boyfriend, which I

423
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 2: did love that I feel that the orgasm was represented

424
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: with fireworks, she realizes she's not on birth control and

425
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 2: freaks out and her friends are like, oh, plan B.

426
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: And she didn't know what it was, never heard of it.

427
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: She was like plan B for what?

428
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: Plan B for what?

429
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 2: What plan?

430
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 1: Like? Her friend says that it was very much still

431
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: a part of the Mormon just like what other plans

432
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: the other plan.

433
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: Right, But that does get to another point we're about

434
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: to get to about education and how that's controlled as well.

435
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: But yeah, divorce is also a big thing and financial

436
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 2: control and abuse around that. So when I was first

437
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 2: reading this, there was a thing that was about the

438
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: marriage fantasy, and I thought it was going to be,

439
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, like what wedding dress will you get? All

440
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 2: that stuff? No, it was how you fantasize about your

441
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 2: man marriage ending because you have to have a reason, right,

442
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 2: You have to have like a legit reason to get

443
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: out of the marriage, because you can't just get divorced.

444
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: So people fantasizing about like what if he cheats or

445
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: what if he does this, and then I won't be

446
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: shamed for not making this word.

447
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: And I think she talks about the two or more witnesses,

448
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,879
Speaker 1: which is a biblical context, because again my church that

449
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: I went to, which is not Jehovah's witness used that

450
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 1: context as well if you wanted to. They weren't as

451
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: nosey as this as authoritative, but you can make it

452
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: authoritative so that people would bring up objections. And this

453
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 1: was also a power of control because of a lot

454
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: of the times it's people who didn't want to be

455
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: divorced because of whatever shame. And this does not include

456
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: and I don't see hard talking about it, but I

457
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,719
Speaker 1: have a feeling it's as similar to that abuse, like

458
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: only reason accilorating to biblical standards. And I talked about

459
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: this specifically in our Religious Trauma episode is adultreat But

460
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: you have to have witnesses, which talked about it's hard

461
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: to prove because typically two people don't know it, right,

462
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: which is why men can get away with often right.

463
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. And also financially, we've talked about that outside of religion,

464
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: there's a lot of financial abuse, especially if one person

465
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: is controlling the finances. Often men in situations like this,

466
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: even if it's not their money, but they're the ones

467
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: in control, or maybe just financial literacy, because again the

468
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: author does speak to education in this context and having

469
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: that being limited about her own experiences being homeschooled. Some

470
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: of them are funnier than others. Some of them are like, well, funnier,

471
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 2: but like not knowing how to connect. She has some

472
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 2: awkward situations where she just doesn't know how to socialize.

473
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 2: But I can see it definitely playing out to if

474
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: you're getting married so young, many women talk about quitting

475
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: their jobs once they get married, dropping out of school,

476
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: then it makes sense to me that there would be

477
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: issues around money in that relationship and that could keep

478
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: you in a really abusive situation. And they were also

479
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: really strict rules around for women behaviors media. As you said,

480
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: the rated R movies is one food, health relationships, just

481
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: like every aspect of your life.

482
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: There were rules, yes, and the men picked out the clothes.

483
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't think it.

484
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: Again, we're talking about this in the context of like

485
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: the graphic novel that she had pointed out, But again,

486
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: she also does an amazing job with her friendship and

487
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: showing like different levels, yes, of beliefs as well as

488
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: her family. So she does a really good job and

489
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: being able to show that context of like not everyone

490
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: is like this, and everyone has different parts of what

491
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: they believe and people who are very cool within the religion.

492
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: Her family just wasn't one of them, right, And I.

493
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: Do think that's a good point, because she shows examples

494
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: of it not being that. I think she's more pointing

495
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: out it could be like this, and I saw the

496
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: instances of it being like this, right. But that brings

497
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: us to our final point when we like so much friends, Yeah, friendship.

498
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: So her friend Rosa. Rosa's openness about her experience within

499
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 2: Jehovah's witness helped open Talia's eyes and kind of open

500
00:30:53,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: her worlds. They became roommates, and yeah, they just kind

501
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 2: of were really there for each other. And it was

502
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: interesting because it felt like a lot of times when

503
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: you were reading about the exceptions the men made were

504
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: oh he has a role rex he really shouldn't. Oh

505
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: he cheated and he's going to be get off scot free.

506
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 2: But for them it was like, let's good to grease.

507
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: I love the Christmas segment like I love the first time,

508
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: and they all went all out and then they're like,

509
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: oh no, my parents are coming and they're hiding, which yes,

510
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: again relateab well, not Christmas, but other things that I'm like,

511
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: I gotta have this, But the fact that the pope

512
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: two of them are together, and even when Talia is

513
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: talking about her relationship and Rosa celebrating, but Rosa's like, yeah,

514
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: I got you, like just being able to have her

515
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: back in most of the situations when the wedding happens.

516
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: When so the entire thing is Talia trying to not

517
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: get announced before her wedding so that all of her

518
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: Jehovah witness friends can attend because they can associate with her,

519
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: including her family. So she's just like waiting for that,

520
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 1: but all of her friends are helping her because they're

521
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: trying to turn all of her friends against her. The

522
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: elders are like I loved each one of them. I'd like,

523
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: oh no, we got her back, we got her back.

524
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 1: It was really like, oh, that's really sweet. Even the

525
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: one couple who were more involved in the Jehovah's witness

526
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: but her friend who was still in a really good marriage,

527
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: it looked like they were actually happy and he was

528
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: supportive of her instead up for her, but like both

529
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: of them were like, yeah, I don't know what you're

530
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: talking about. No, she's doing great, what are you talking about?

531
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: And then when they did, they also kind of celebrated Christmas,

532
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: but instead of calling it at Christmas Tree, they called

533
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: it a friendship Greece. But it was it was nice

534
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: to see all of that. They were really supportive of her,

535
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: and I'm like, at least she has some good people

536
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: to have her back.

537
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they all. She kept apologizing and saying, I

538
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: don't you don't have to risk it, don't worry about it,

539
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: and they're like, no, we will be there.

540
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

541
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: But it it goes back to what I was saying

542
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: earlier about, you know, destructive religions or cults in general,

543
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: is if you're alone and you're vulnerable, that's how you

544
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 2: get it. They get you, and I think she even

545
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: has kind of it felt kind of like an aside,

546
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: but it was about her how her dad got involved,

547
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 2: and it was like he lost all of his money,

548
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: got sued, got in trouble, and then became a Jehovah's

549
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 2: witness as opposed to how he makes it sound as

550
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: though always like which is often the case, often the

551
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: case for whatever reason. But yeah, her friends, her friends

552
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 2: were there for her. I could tell there was a

553
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: balancing act for her where she was like, especially in

554
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: a couple of cases, like her sister's children who are

555
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: being raised in this religion, like trying to show there

556
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: are other there's more out there than this, but also

557
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: not trying to scare them off. And so that was

558
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: present throughout. But it was also interesting to see because

559
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: at the end you kind of find Rosa in almost

560
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: the opposite position. But then she meets someone else and

561
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: they become friends and they talk about turning her experience,

562
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,879
Speaker 2: at least Rose's experience of organizing, of recruiting of all

563
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 2: that stuff into activism into something else, And as you said,

564
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: it's kind of what the author did with the current

565
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: work that she does. And it all ends with an

566
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 2: image of what Talia found, and it's fulfillment and education

567
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 2: and work and love, marriage, travel, friends of baby, happiness, sex,

568
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: and it's all in these really bright colors. She's really happy,

569
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: and then on the bottom it's contrasted with like drab

570
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: colors of all she shed after she left, like apocalypse

571
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 2: or creepy man Satan like things like that. So it's

572
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: just a really nice the way to end it where

573
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 2: you see all of this stuff she's discovered and all

574
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: the stuff she's decided to leave behind.

575
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I do have to point out I feel

576
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: like one of the because you know, I can't believe

577
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: anything happy come on. The one of the sadder parts

578
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: is her mom, Yeah, who had gone through so much,

579
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,080
Speaker 1: especially because of her dad and losing everything. She lost

580
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: her house, she lost like some of our health and like,

581
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 1: but every time she turns, she's like, but it's Jehovah,

582
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: Like she cannot let go of that religion to the

583
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: point that she again has lost so much and no

584
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 1: one is willing to help her because it's again Jehovah,

585
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 1: and even her like sisters, I've kind of just like

586
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: accepted that's her fate and no one's seen a problem

587
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: with that. Her mom very much still being like, remember,

588
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: I wish you would do all these things, go to meetings,

589
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: go find this person, as if like it had worked

590
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 1: out for her, and it had not. It was kind

591
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: of made me sad, but she was still taking care

592
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 1: of her mom and trying to take care of her mom,

593
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 1: And I will say that during the wedding, her mom

594
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 1: was the most supportive, which I kind of was shocked by.

595
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: I didn't expect that because her dad was so awful. Oh,

596
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: but because like she was being like she had been

597
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: so submissive and but it was like, keep me far

598
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: away from your dad, like that was her one request.

599
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: But her mom being really loving and supportive during her wedding.

600
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,919
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, that's sweet, but it's made really

601
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: sad for her mom.

602
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: It was sad because again, like her dad, despite multiple

603
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: examples of being a total douchebag, gets to continue to

604
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 2: have experience a respect he doesn't deserve and has this

605
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: access to this community, while her mom is living in

606
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 2: a retirement home health home and kind of been ignored

607
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: and just like yeah, and for her, when you see

608
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: her at the wedding and she says, you know, keep

609
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: me as far away from as possible, it makes you

610
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: think if she never met him. You're seeing her kind

611
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: of happy and being so supportive of her daughter. It

612
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: is sad because it makes you wonder if she hain't

613
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 2: got married so young because this she was getting pushed

614
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: to by people in her life who what what her

615
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: life could have been right.

616
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, the hope she's having a better maybe she stepped

617
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: away particularly maybe she has because one of the conversation

618
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 1: pieces again about the patriarchy being the head of this religion,

619
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: was the fact that women can't really even talk to

620
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: the men. They're not really supposed to talk one on

621
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: one or ask for her health.

622
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: Yeah.

623
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, again this was based on how she was talking

624
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 1: about what she had gone through. Because also this is

625
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: just a reminder even in denominations, and again my church

626
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: is a great example, as I talk about that, they

627
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: all work differently and some are way more intense than others.

628
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 1: Like I've seen this, there are sex within denominations that

629
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: are like WHOA that seems really cult like versus what

630
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: other people have experienced. So there's definitely like that those

631
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:38,320
Speaker 1: layers too. So I because I don't know Jehovah's witness personally,

632
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 1: like I don't not being people, but the religion in

633
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,919
Speaker 1: itself and it's practices, I've never gone, so I can't

634
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: really attest to that. But like in her version, it

635
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: definitely seemed like an extreme level in itself. So not

636
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: to say that that's all all Jehovah's witnesses we wouldn't

637
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 1: put that as a label, but yeah, I mean to see,

638
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: what she has presented is fair called.

639
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: Like it is. And I know we keep bringing it

640
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 2: back to this, but we did. Samantha largely did a

641
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 2: twelve part mini series on religious drama. It was a

642
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: very long mini series. I do think a lot of religions,

643
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: especially in the West, are patriarchal, and that you internalize

644
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 2: that as a child, and it can take a lot

645
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: of work to undo so, right, I've seen examples that

646
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 2: I in friends of mine in other religions that had

647
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: similarities to this that you know, I experienced patriarchy for sure,

648
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 2: but I saw especially one friend where she would say

649
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: something she heard in church just like that sounds so

650
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: basically you asked for you were asking for some help,

651
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 2: and they were like, go pray, okay, yeah, which at

652
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: a certain levelly I see, but at a certain level also,

653
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: I'm like they need maybe more than that, right, And.

654
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: I think that goes a conversation of like again, the

655
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: blood transfusion and the refusal of other blood in your system,

656
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: and because it was it was a huge trial at

657
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 1: one point in time when a parent chose not to

658
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: allow that because it was against their religious beliefs. There

659
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 1: was a back and forth like is this neglect? Is

660
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: this medical neglect? Should we have a conversation of what

661
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: to do? And cases of where children have died because

662
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: of this choice. So there's a lot of conversations in

663
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: that belief of like if this is God's will, Jehovah's will,

664
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: if this is this, we need to pray about this.

665
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: And we talked about that context and a little bit

666
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: about prayer within religion, and we talked about that specifically

667
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 1: with Christianity on a larger part as in like Protestantism

668
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: more so than anything else. And that's a big conversation

669
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: of like where is that line and how much authority

670
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 1: does the government have does society have versus the religious

671
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 1: morality of it all. So that is a big underlying conversation.

672
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 1: It is kind it is very scary in itself, and

673
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: again like the whole level of marrying young, all these

674
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 1: conversations about the expectancy so that they immediately at a

675
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 1: certain age, whether that's preteen or not, there being seen

676
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 1: as future sexual beings to procreate, like they're already like

677
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: trying to set people up. There was that conversation like

678
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: so gonna melder Mary an elder she's like eight. Yeah,

679
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: Like that was like in that context, like she's young.

680
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: I don't think it's eight, but like it's obviously like adolescent,

681
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: and so that that fact that the community members they

682
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: already seeing that child as as that instead of being

683
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: a child.

684
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 2: Right yeah. Yeah, And there's also there's so much to

685
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: talk about here because this made me think about vaccines

686
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 2: as well in the whole conversation, because we had to

687
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: listener right in and say, my parents kept me from

688
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 2: getting vaccines and like started their whole at their own

689
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: organization about why you should get vaccinated unless there's some

690
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: real reason not to. But yeah, just that can be

691
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: so hard when you grow up within a certain belief

692
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: or a certain system to question that. And I imagine

693
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 2: this was quite a difficult graphic novel to us, right yeah,

694
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 2: So we appreciate all the people who who do that

695
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: and you know, have dealt with dealt with this and

696
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 2: recommend it. It's it's beautifully illustrated too. It's really really it.

697
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: Is really fun. It kind of reminds me of Johnny Bravo, Yes,

698
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: you know what.

699
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: Talk because it looks amazing that Yeah, yeah, I see

700
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 2: that completely, but it does. It's like it tackles a

701
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 2: lot of it feels kind of like our show almost.

702
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: It tackles a lot of like really difficult stuff, but

703
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,879
Speaker 2: it's colorful and it's fun, and then it has its

704
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 2: sad moments, but it's it's just it's very vibrant while

705
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: giving you a lot of information and also being really honest.

706
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: So yes, go check it out. If you have any

707
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: thoughts on this, we would love to hear from you.

708
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: If you have any resources or suggestions, we would also

709
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 2: love to get that. You can email us stuff and

710
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 2: You mom Stuff at heeartmedia dot com. You can find

711
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 2: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram

712
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: and TikTok at stuff I'll Never Told You. We're also

713
00:43:58,120 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: on YouTube, but we have a t public store and

714
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: we have a book wherever you get your books. Thanks

715
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 2: as always to our super producer Christine, our executive producer,

716
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: and our contributor Joey. Thank you, and thanks to you

717
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: for listening. Steffan Never Told You is production of my

718
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 2: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you

719
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: can check out the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

720
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 2: reve you listen to your favorite shows,