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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast,

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Speaker 1: a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all

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Speaker 1: the small decisions we can make to become the best

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Speaker 1: possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard

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Speaker 1: and Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more

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Speaker 1: information or to find a therapist in your area, visit

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Speaker 1: our website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While

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Speaker 1: I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast,

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Speaker 1: it is not meant to be a substitute for a

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Speaker 1: relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining me for session to nineteen of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right

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Speaker 1: into the episode right after a word from our sponsors.

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Speaker 1: Before summer ends and you head back into whatever your

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Speaker 1: fall schedule will look like this year, we want you

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Speaker 1: to join us for one more fun, just for you experience.

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Speaker 1: We thought it would be nice for us to choose

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Speaker 1: a book for us to read as a community and

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Speaker 1: then come together to discuss and what's better for a

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Speaker 1: summer read than a romance novel? The book we've chosen

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Speaker 1: for our last days of summer book club's Seven Days

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Speaker 1: in June, So if you haven't already, grab your copy

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Speaker 1: and then sign up to join us for a virtual

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Speaker 1: book chat later this month at Therapy for Black Girls

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Speaker 1: dot com slash book Club and to kick off the experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited that the author of Seven Days in June,

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Speaker 1: Tia Williams, is with us today as well as Barry Psychs,

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Speaker 1: all hardcore fan of romance novels, to chat all about

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Speaker 1: the genre of romance and particularly black women in this

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Speaker 1: space as both authors and characters. Tia had a fifteen

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Speaker 1: year career as a beauty editor from magazines including l Glamour, Lucky,

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Speaker 1: Teen People, and Essence. In two thousand and four, she

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Speaker 1: pioneered the beauty blog industry with her award winning site

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Speaker 1: Shake Your Beauty. She wrote the best selling debut novel,

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Speaker 1: The Accidental Diva, and also pinned two young adult novels,

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Speaker 1: It Chicks and Sixteen Candles. Her novel, the award winning

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Speaker 1: The Perfect Fine, is being adapted for film by Gay

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Speaker 1: Riel Union for Netflix. Tia is currently an editorial director

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Speaker 1: at Este Lauder Companies. Barry Psykes is the creator of

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Speaker 1: podcasts and Color, the largest directory of people of color podcasts.

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Speaker 1: She is passionate about helping people find podcasts by people

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Speaker 1: of color creators. Born and raised in Denver, Colorado, also

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Speaker 1: where she currently resides, podcasts or her link to the

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Speaker 1: outside world, marketing podcast is a passion and she is

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Speaker 1: always looking for creative ways to make it happen. If

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Speaker 1: there's something that resonates with you while enjoying our conversation,

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Speaker 1: please share with us on social media using the hashtag

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Speaker 1: tbg in session. This is a spoiler free chat, so

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Speaker 1: you can enjoy it even before you've read. Seven days

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Speaker 1: in June. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: joining me today. I really appreciate you hanging out and

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Speaker 1: talking about romance novels with me this afternoon. I'm so excited.

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Speaker 1: It's my favorite thing to talk about. Likewise, so Tia,

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Speaker 1: I would love for you to just kind of get

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Speaker 1: us started by talking about what actually makes a romance

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Speaker 1: novel a romance novel, Like, how is that genre classified? Well,

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Speaker 1: there are some actual hard and fast rules that you

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Speaker 1: have to follow for it to be considered a romance.

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Speaker 1: Like a romance isn't just fiction with a love story

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Speaker 1: are in it. The love story has to be prominent.

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Speaker 1: So it can't be like a thriller where they're solving

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Speaker 1: a murder or something and then they accidentally way in

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Speaker 1: the background follow in love. But that's not the point

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Speaker 1: at all. So the love has to be forefront, and

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Speaker 1: there has to be a happy ending. If there isn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if there is no happy ending, it's not a romance.

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Speaker 1: And who says these rules? Where do these rules come from?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean maybe it's the Romance Writer Association.

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Speaker 1: There are long held, hard and fast rules and and

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Speaker 1: the fandoms get into battles over it. Honey, yeah like it? Yeah, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't classify, you know, so like if we're speaking

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Speaker 1: in technical terms, that's what that is. But like I

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Speaker 1: grew up on movies like Romancing the Stone and things

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Speaker 1: like that. They're like on Adventures in Cartagena, Colombia, like

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Speaker 1: solving insane mysteries but falling in love. Like that's a

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Speaker 1: romance to me. But yeah, but that might not technically classify. No. Yeah, interesting,

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Speaker 1: so very I saw you shaking your head when she

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Speaker 1: said the fandoms kind of get into it. So it

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Speaker 1: would have been some of your favorites And how did

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Speaker 1: you get into this genre? I would say, like, I've

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Speaker 1: always been a reader. I don't know how to explain

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Speaker 1: that to people, but I've always been a deep reader.

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Speaker 1: In one of the children where I made other women,

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Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, I was picking up books at people's

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Speaker 1: houses and just reading them, and I'm like, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was me picking up books and people's houses. And I

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Speaker 1: came up on a romance book at someone's house. I

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Speaker 1: have no idea, and it kind of was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I like this kind of story. So I found out

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Speaker 1: those were the kind of books in the grocery store,

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Speaker 1: like those Harla Quinn type of books. So somehow I

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Speaker 1: happened if I'm buying one of those, and I sent

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Speaker 1: that little slip in that like it sent you books,

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Speaker 1: and they sent books for like three months before they

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Speaker 1: sent a bill that My mom was like, okay, so

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Speaker 1: what's up. So I would say, like I got into it,

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Speaker 1: and it was just like, oh, I need more, I

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Speaker 1: need more romance. This is the cutest thing ever. This

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Speaker 1: is the kind of thing I needed. And it would

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Speaker 1: be like all types of stories. It wasn't just one

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Speaker 1: type of person. So I just felt like it was

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Speaker 1: an escape. So when she says that, I totally agreed

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Speaker 1: and like getting deeper in my mom's best friend's daughter

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Speaker 1: read black romance, and so she's the one who got

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Speaker 1: me in the Beverly Jenkins and Brenda Jackson and that

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Speaker 1: type of thing. And that was when I got into

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Speaker 1: the fandoms type of thing, like joining a Beverly Jenkins

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Speaker 1: Yahoo group. It kind of was like a whole different

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Speaker 1: world of like the rules and what people expect and

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Speaker 1: like when things are released there, like the respect people

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Speaker 1: expect to give. And it's very deep and people feel

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Speaker 1: away if you don't understand it and you're in the space.

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Speaker 1: So oh yeah, right now, there's rumblings within the fandom

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Speaker 1: because the Romance Writer Awards just came out and the

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Speaker 1: person who won for I think best Christian Romance her

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Speaker 1: best inspirational Romance. It's like a colonial era American story

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Speaker 1: and like in the first chapter, the white male protagonists

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Speaker 1: like kills native tribes. It's totally offensive and so wrong,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, why is this rewarded? I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've followed this onto. I'm deep into the romance

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Speaker 1: party to like the things that I love. I'm a

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Speaker 1: stand so and the deepness and the behind the scenes.

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Speaker 1: So I've been through the whole r w A and

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Speaker 1: I actually stopped paying attention because of all the drama

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Speaker 1: that happened beforehand and who ran it and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So I try not to give it a lot of attention.

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Speaker 1: And it's because of that. It's like, we do all this,

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Speaker 1: we call you into accounting, you say these things have changed,

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and then the first time we come

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Speaker 1: around to something else, you do something else, and it's like,

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Speaker 1: so do we have to stay an outrage? And I

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Speaker 1: don't like that. So it's just easier for me to

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Speaker 1: follow the authors I like and deal with the things

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Speaker 1: I do with and not like those organizations necessarily if

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Speaker 1: I don't have to. And you know what, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: do that too. I'm following day Oh my god. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like much like other areas, like this

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Speaker 1: is an area and I know my own experience like

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until probably college where I even saw like

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Speaker 1: black women in romance and novels, And so I'd love

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Speaker 1: for both of you to share some of the differences

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Speaker 1: you see, like when black women are the lead characters

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Speaker 1: and what kinds of things really make a romance novel

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Speaker 1: exciting to you. That's tough because if you're a black

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Speaker 1: woman writing a black woman character, it's all you know.

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Speaker 1: And there are all different types of black women the

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Speaker 1: same way they are all the different types of white women.

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Speaker 1: So a black character to me isn't defined by being

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Speaker 1: a black character. I'm not really sure how to answer that. Like,

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Speaker 1: you have very silly black female heroines and romance novels.

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Speaker 1: You have very cerebral ones. You have sort of like

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Speaker 1: the virgin to flower, you have the slunny one. There's

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Speaker 1: so many different kinds. What is definitely true is that

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Speaker 1: it's taken far too long to get here to this

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Speaker 1: place where we have so much representation and there's enough

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Speaker 1: space for there to be more than just one black

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Speaker 1: female protagonist Trope. I think it was with the advent

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Speaker 1: of self publishing that really did it. Like suddenly there

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Speaker 1: were all these different voices, and you know, you're seeing

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Speaker 1: black and all these different genres that they hadn't been before,

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Speaker 1: and characters portrayed in different ways that they hadn't before,

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Speaker 1: and it really opened up the genre to new experiences.

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Speaker 1: The problem with book publishing is that the gatekeepers are

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Speaker 1: super duper white, more so than in music, more so

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Speaker 1: than in movies and film, like you see all sorts

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Speaker 1: of positive progressive changes being made, like especially in TV

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Speaker 1: like Atlanta and Secure, like Lean Sugar, like all these

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Speaker 1: many kalings fabulous show not black but you get me.

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Speaker 1: But I do have to say, just like those industries,

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Speaker 1: it's the stands in the fans of black romance that

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Speaker 1: pushed authors up the act be paid attention to and

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Speaker 1: like why they are a thing. Like it wasn't because

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Speaker 1: somebody said, Okay, let's choose a black author and put

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Speaker 1: them out there. I would say, until like the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years. It was people building up and like

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Speaker 1: having such a fanship of like I released a book

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Speaker 1: and even if you don't acknowledge me, these people buy

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Speaker 1: it so much. I end up on these lists and

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Speaker 1: you wonder about me. And it kept doing that where

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Speaker 1: it like that where people like had to pay attention

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Speaker 1: in different ways, like BT I remember doing the air

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Speaker 1: best movies, like I remember me as so excited, like

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Speaker 1: they know who where the Jackson is? They know who

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Speaker 1: these people are, like they're actually seeing what this is.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't the best movies but I was like, there's

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Speaker 1: somebody seeing this and seeing that it should be on

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Speaker 1: screen and trying to like create a connection to do

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Speaker 1: something more. And I do wish more could have been

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Speaker 1: done with that or somebody what another vision could have

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Speaker 1: been a part of that, because I'm like it could

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Speaker 1: have been a bigger thing than it was. But back

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Speaker 1: to your question, talk to it. Like for me and

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Speaker 1: starting off, it felt like black romance books were more

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Speaker 1: family oriented than white romance books. Like black romance books

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Speaker 1: would have parents in it or grandparents or like mentioned

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Speaker 1: siblings and all that kind of thing, and white romance

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Speaker 1: bisks were more like the people where the people and

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Speaker 1: they had their children are like things around them and

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Speaker 1: it didn't necessarily the bigger story didn't connect necessarily always

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Speaker 1: to their family members, and like I had to grow

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Speaker 1: into that with Nora Roberts and other things like that.

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Speaker 1: But like coming in it was like, oh, they have

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Speaker 1: all these brothers, and that's exactly what I think of

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Speaker 1: as a black family is like somebody with five brothers,

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Speaker 1: or like a younger sister is gonna act like this

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Speaker 1: in a family, or grandparents are going to let their

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Speaker 1: grandchildren do anything, And what can you do about it,

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Speaker 1: and it just kind of felt like normalized or Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it sounds like the things that you really enjoy

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Speaker 1: Berry are like when the world is built out so

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Speaker 1: that there are these supporting characters and other things going

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Speaker 1: on besides just like the love story. Yeah, because you

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Speaker 1: know that's a part of romances, Like the people around

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Speaker 1: you like contributed to it in some type of way,

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Speaker 1: Like they're the people you talk to or the people

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Speaker 1: you'll depend on in different ways to help you. So

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Speaker 1: I like when they're in the story. So see, what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things do you consider when you're like building

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Speaker 1: out a new love story. It's a romance pet peeve

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Speaker 1: of mine. When you're just presented with these two characters

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Speaker 1: and told that they're in love or told that they

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Speaker 1: should be in love, it's very important for me to

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Speaker 1: build the case for them so that by the time

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Speaker 1: they finally like get there, you are so invested, like

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Speaker 1: you'll just die if they don't get together. I want

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Speaker 1: my readers to feel like these two were faded to

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Speaker 1: be together. So I really love, like really building the

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Speaker 1: case for these two people being sold me. That's what

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Speaker 1: I love. I just want to say, like in the

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Speaker 1: middle of a book, I will shout like, yes, that's

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Speaker 1: exactly what. Yeah, yeah, it has to make sense. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like a legal case, like you have to have

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Speaker 1: everything in place, and it's like putting together a puzzle.

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Speaker 1: And the way I really love to do it is

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Speaker 1: with dialogue in my books. I love the way people

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Speaker 1: talk to each other. I love colloquialisms and like different

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Speaker 1: generational language and just witty, sparkling convos that you never

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Speaker 1: have in real life, Like you always think of the

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Speaker 1: line in the shower, like long after the conversation has

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Speaker 1: been So I love that. Yeah, I feel like you

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Speaker 1: do an excellent job of it, Like I feel like,

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Speaker 1: especially with Seven Days in June, but also with the

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Speaker 1: Perfect Fine, like I could really picture these scenes playing

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Speaker 1: out in my head, like oh, this is what Evil's

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Speaker 1: apartment looks like inside, and like I can imagine Audrey

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Speaker 1: in her room, right, you know. So I really feel

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Speaker 1: like there was a lot there that allowed me to

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Speaker 1: kind of come up with the pictures for myself with

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Speaker 1: these characters. Worlds great. Yeah, that's what gets me excited.

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Speaker 1: I love doing that. Yeah. So there's a line in

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Speaker 1: Seven Days in June where you talk about your missagynal

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Speaker 1: Y is showing right. So their author panel, and there's

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Speaker 1: a comment around how romance is often fluff, right, and

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Speaker 1: it seems like this when comes up really anything that

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Speaker 1: like women in particular love, right, And so I would

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Speaker 1: just love to kind of hear more of your thoughts

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Speaker 1: about that. I would imagine that is you know, you

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Speaker 1: wrote it in the book, but you've already kind of

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Speaker 1: alluded to this kind of being what happens in real life.

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Speaker 1: So what kinds of things have you done to be

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Speaker 1: able to kind of manage some of this. It's really frustrating,

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Speaker 1: and you hit the nail on the head. It's like

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Speaker 1: things that women love are never taken seriously. They're just

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Speaker 1: not like they're considered silly, they're not considered serious, and

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Speaker 1: and they're definitely not considered high art until like a

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Speaker 1: man vouches for it. And you know, I think it's

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Speaker 1: complete bullshit. Obviously, you know the idea that what I

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Speaker 1: do is fluff. Nathaniel Hawthorne said, easy reading is damn

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Speaker 1: hard writing, Like it is a skill and a craft

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Speaker 1: to be able to seduce wide ranges of people into

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Speaker 1: a love story and the wrong hands. It could be

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Speaker 1: comedy and the wrong hands, it could be horror. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you get it really wrong, try a sex scene.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's really tough to do this genre correctly. And

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Speaker 1: you know, you see it with everything. It's just media

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Speaker 1: is born of a patriarchal structure. So if something centers

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Speaker 1: emotional life and loving and being considerate and soft and caring,

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Speaker 1: and it's just too girly and it's too silly, and

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Speaker 1: it's a shame. It is because like for me, romance books,

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Speaker 1: I've liked it because the women are so strong, like

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Speaker 1: they think for themselves. It's not like just simple I'll

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Speaker 1: go along with anything. They push back. They're very much like, no,

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Speaker 1: it's I'm doing this and I'm in saying my thoughts.

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Speaker 1: So if you would like to be around these are

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Speaker 1: the things that you're gonna encounter being around here. So

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Speaker 1: I think that people think it's just like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: meet this man and I swoon, and it's like that's

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Speaker 1: not at all. I like it because women do push

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Speaker 1: back and they are getting someone who is there equal

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Speaker 1: in a way of that they'll have these conversations with

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Speaker 1: them and not back down. And I feel like that's

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Speaker 1: part of the reason I connect like I love her

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Speaker 1: books here, I'm reading it right now. But I was like,

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Speaker 1: it's not that the conversations that are flat, Like children

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Speaker 1: aren't going to be the same, Like a child is

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Speaker 1: going to press their buttons and see what they can do.

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Speaker 1: And as a parent, like I'm not a parent, but

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Speaker 1: I meet other people, it's like, Okay, how do I

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Speaker 1: go about this? There is no perfect way or perfect response.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, that's what I like about romance

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Speaker 1: books and books in general, is just like that realness

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Speaker 1: and not trying to necessarily create a world like where

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Speaker 1: nothing would ever happen in the books, but like bringing

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Speaker 1: into different types of things. So what kinds of things

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Speaker 1: do you think romance novels specifically bring to Black women?

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Speaker 1: Like why do black women often find solace in romance novels,

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Speaker 1: specifically in black romance novels. We deserve to see ourselves

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Speaker 1: reflected in love stories and feeling great about ourselves being

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Speaker 1: loved the right way, connecting with other people, being seen

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Speaker 1: is so important for black women. I mean, for so

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Speaker 1: long we're just sort of like the mules of society,

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Speaker 1: you know, just carrying everybody on our back. And it's

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Speaker 1: a gift to see black women loved and respected and

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Speaker 1: valued in these books. And that's what I always try

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Speaker 1: to do. I try to make it a gift for

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Speaker 1: black women, an escapist fantasy that we can get lost

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Speaker 1: in black women. I'm targeting first, and whoever likes it

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Speaker 1: else likes it. Yeah, but you know it's I really

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Speaker 1: do want to appeal to us first, because I feel

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Speaker 1: like we really really deserve it, and for years it

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Speaker 1: just wasn't there. I mean when I was growing up

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, like I was into Joanna Lindsay and

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Widows and Gude Devereaux and all the early Sander

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Speaker 1: Brown when she was like exclusively romance, and it was

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Speaker 1: just a real, a really white landscape. I mean, there

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Speaker 1: was really only Beverly chickens. And that's when I got older,

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Speaker 1: and so I would read them and recast them, the

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Speaker 1: characters as black people in my mind, like black people.

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Speaker 1: I knew black movie stars, black cigars like rough Transpant

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Speaker 1: wasn't quite a few in my head. And that's just lame.

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Speaker 1: We're not the black versions of a white character or

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Speaker 1: like a white story. We should be able to exist

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Speaker 1: as our own narratives. Yeah, that's why I think we

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Speaker 1: get out of these stories. I feel like it filled

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Speaker 1: the gap for me. Like reading Francis Ray and other people,

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Speaker 1: they gave black women like they were executives, their nurses,

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Speaker 1: they're ranters. They're not just like, oh, you're either a

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Speaker 1: mom or you're something else. That's like they filled the

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Speaker 1: gap in many things like yes you might be a photographer,

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Speaker 1: Yes you might be a model, Like there's just different

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Speaker 1: types of things you might be, and just regular jobs.

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Speaker 1: And I think that became like, Okay, these are women

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Speaker 1: I might know. This is a woman that's a social

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Speaker 1: or something like that. These are the people that connect

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Speaker 1: for me. So I felt like when I was reading

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Speaker 1: Brochel Lairs like Prindle Jackson, Them's like, Okay, these are

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Speaker 1: the kind of people I know. I know Caribbean people.

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Speaker 1: I know people you know with money that aren't in

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Speaker 1: the United States, but their family are connected to other

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Speaker 1: places and they speak Spanish and English and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it kind of just brought like layers um to

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Speaker 1: life that white romance books weren't drinking for me. M

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Speaker 1: more from my conversation with Tia and Barry after the Break,

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Speaker 1: you know the other thing that I really love about

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Speaker 1: your books in particular, Tea is that it feels like

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Speaker 1: you also have this added layer of writing for a

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Speaker 1: little bit of an older woman, Right, So I think

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Speaker 1: most of your characters are thirty five and older or

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Speaker 1: you know, like late thirties, and so I think that

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Speaker 1: that is also like a segment that can sometimes be

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Speaker 1: left out of romance novels, like not these young single people,

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Speaker 1: but people like and have stuff going on in their lives.

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Speaker 1: Can you speak to that a little? That's just me

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Speaker 1: being old? Yeah, I mean I'm forty five. You know.

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Speaker 1: I wrote my first novel, The Accidentality, but when I

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Speaker 1: was twenty five, and it shows like the things that

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Speaker 1: were important to me then or mattered to me then,

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Speaker 1: was you know, getting my career on track, like really

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out who I was, like post college

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Speaker 1: as an adult. And that's what was happening in that novel.

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Speaker 1: A woman at the beginning of her career, a guy

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Speaker 1: at the beginning of his career, Like they're trying to

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Speaker 1: figure it out, like you still have a roommate maybe,

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Speaker 1: But then like as I got older, my life and

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Speaker 1: my perspectives changed, and the perfect find I wrote about

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Speaker 1: a forty year old woman when I was forty. The

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00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: bottom falls out of her life and she has to

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Speaker 1: reinvent herself in a new job, in a new world.

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Speaker 1: And I was experiencing that and it was nutty, and

380
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 1: I thought it was right before fiction treatment, and so

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00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 1: that's where that came from. And then seven days in June,

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00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,800
Speaker 1: I think Eva and Shane are thirty three, and they're

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Speaker 1: only thirty three, which is super young for me. Obviously

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Speaker 1: there are thirty three because I wanted their teenage flashbacks

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Speaker 1: to be in the early odds. I just think it's

386
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 1: such a it was such a weird time culturally, and

387
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 1: it's really rich to write about. And so yeah, so

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Speaker 1: that's why. But I wouldn't be adverse to writing a

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Speaker 1: younger character. It's just that my books usually reflect where

390
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: I am. And I have a twelve year old daughter.

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Speaker 1: Eva has a twelve year old daughter. Yeah, Like being

392
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Speaker 1: a single mom is something that So my daughter's father

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Speaker 1: and I were divorced when she was eleven months old,

394
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: so we co parent. I see his apartment through my window,

395
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,760
Speaker 1: like it's fine, Like she walks back and forth, it's fine.

396
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 1: But when she was with me half the week, it's

397
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 1: just the two of us. And we sort of as

398
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,640
Speaker 1: any single mother of a daughter, a single daughter knows,

399
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: like you just become this sort of symbiotic organism, like

400
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 1: living in your own bubble, and it's such a special

401
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: and unique relationship with like your own language and rituals

402
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: and inside jokes and things that you do together that

403
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: I just was like, Yeah, I've got to I've got

404
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: to write about this and something I couldn't have written

405
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: about a year old. Yeah, something else you included in

406
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Speaker 1: this book that I'd love to hear more about is

407
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: like living with a chronic illness, because I think that's

408
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: something else that you don't necessarily hear like in a

409
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 1: roman genre, right, And so I just love to hear

410
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: why it was important for you to include that, and

411
00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,680
Speaker 1: maybe if you want to share anything around like how

412
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: that does come up in relationships, like talking about illness. Yeah,

413
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: it sucks. I Eva Mercy, the protagonist of Seven Days

414
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: in June, has chronic migraine since she was a child,

415
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 1: and so do I since I was nine. And my

416
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: diagnosis is intractable, which means incurable, which means things work

417
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 1: for like three to six months and then they stopped

418
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: working and then it's back to square one, and I

419
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,920
Speaker 1: have a migraine every day. I wake up in pain

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Speaker 1: every day and it affects everything. I mean, any chronic

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00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: pain suffered, whether it's fibromyalgia, whether it's arthrightis any sort

422
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: of like nagging, relentless pain that can't really be treated.

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00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: It rules your life. It's bigger than any emotion. It's

424
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: bigger than any feeling. It's bigger than any relationship you have.

425
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: It's like you're the pain with a person attached, and

426
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 1: you don't see that representation in the genre. I'm not

427
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: a fan of Sick Thick, even though people are. I

428
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: Actually I really liked the fault in their stars, but

429
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: I never really wanted to write Sick Thick. And other

430
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 1: than that, I couldn't figure out how to we eve

431
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 1: pain into like what should be a sexy, sparkly, dazzling,

432
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: escapist love story. And honestly, it wasn't until I got

433
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: to being in my forties and my perspective sort of

434
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: change stop being something that I hid from people so

435
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't think I was complaining or I had

436
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: munch houses making it up. Because you know, when you

437
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: have an invisible disease, if you're not bleeding or limping

438
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: or in a wheelchair. It's really hard for people to

439
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: understand that you struggle so badly. So I always tried

440
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: to hide it or make up liies of how why

441
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: I couldn't go to things or go to the second party,

442
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: Like if I go out, I can only go to

443
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: one thing. I can't go to a second place, if

444
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: that makes any sense, because it's all I can bear

445
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: is just the one first place. But anyway, I got

446
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: to my forties and I was like, why am I

447
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: hiding this? I know there's a whole community out there

448
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 1: who suffers in the same a and we just never

449
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: see ourselves deserving of like big love and great sex,

450
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: and the story like and I started. I was writing

451
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: it at a time when my head was really bad

452
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: and it was really hard to be a single mother,

453
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: and I felt like I was doing everything from the couch.

454
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: I was like doing homework on the couch, ordering dinner

455
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: from the couch, tangling her hair from the couch, like

456
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: everything from the couch. And I was like, this sucks.

457
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: So I sort of made up Eva and gave her

458
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: happy ending and like this epic love story as like

459
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 1: a treat to myself and The crazy thing is halfway

460
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,400
Speaker 1: through writing this book, I swiped right on my husband.

461
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: It was almost liked it. And I only swiped right

462
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,199
Speaker 1: on him because he was so good looking. I was like,

463
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 1: he's too hot for this ever to go anywhere real,

464
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: like he's definitely going to be an are like, we

465
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: all know how this is going to end. And I

466
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 1: married him in December, so a very responsible pandemic wedding

467
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: in a hotel room which just us two of my

468
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: daughter and efficient very masked up and you know, zom

469
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 1: but yeah, well we'll congratulations, Thank you, so Verry. Is

470
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: this something that you've seen in other books that you've enjoyed,

471
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 1: you know, like you talked about like really enjoying the

472
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: relationships and their families and stuff like that. Are there

473
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: other pieces like disability or other things that have come

474
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: up for you in some of the books you've enjoyed.

475
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: I would say not necessarily. Like the thing that makes

476
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: me think of this and it's not a disability, but

477
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: just like as a difference is Indigo by Beverly Jenkins,

478
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: where the main character, her hands are died in the

479
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 1: code because she was a slave and so when she

480
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: was picking it died her hands, so she would wear

481
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: gloves and things like that, just the kind of so

482
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: people wouldn't talk about it or mention it. That kind

483
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 1: of thing things happen during or like there's a where

484
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: like somebody's dealing with something. There's only one book I

485
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,880
Speaker 1: read during the pandemic and the person used as a wheelchair,

486
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: and that was like I don't even remember if I

487
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: just remember reading and I was like this is different.

488
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 1: But I was like, Okay, I can go with this,

489
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: like this is something that's normal. I see this. So

490
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: it kind of just felt like an expanse of the

491
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: stories that I felt like during like the height of

492
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: COVID last year and things like that. I was just

493
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: reading any and every romance book that I could find.

494
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: If I liked it, I just read a chapter two

495
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: and then I'd be like all right, um. I was

496
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 1: just searching on Twitter for different names and things like that.

497
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: So I've had a lot of different things I didn't

498
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: normally read. M m M. Yeah, you know, Tea some

499
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: of the other things that you dealt with in seven

500
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: Days in June, or topics like self harm and alcoholism,

501
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: and I'm just curious to hear you know, like you

502
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 1: also included that right, which I think is can also

503
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: be a difficult balance when you're talking about something that

504
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: has to have a happy ending. And so what were

505
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: you hoping maybe that readers could get if they were

506
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 1: going through a similar kind of struggle. Well, you know

507
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: what's fun. I wasn't really thinking about the reader when

508
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: I wrote these characters. I was really thinking about the characters,

509
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: like what was true to them. I wasn't writing it

510
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: as a lesson or any sort of morality play or

511
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: this is what happens if you do this, And I

512
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 1: wasn't even writing it as like inspiration. Shane is in recovery,

513
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: but who knows what's going to happen to him down

514
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,239
Speaker 1: the road, and everyone's journey is different. This is just

515
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: he had. It happened to work for him this time,

516
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: but it never had before and we don't really know

517
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: if it'll stick. I just wanted to show, like a

518
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: slice of life, and I guess if a reader got

519
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: from the characters, you know, a sense of strength and

520
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: stick with its which is not a word, but both

521
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: Eva and Shane have their own you know, they come

522
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: from very troubled childhood and they had their own coping mechanisms,

523
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: and they each coped in different ways, and they were

524
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: not healthy ways, and they had different ways of overcoming them.

525
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 1: Like for Shane it was going to a and that

526
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: worked for him. For Eva it was just cold turkey

527
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: walking away, going to a different city and changing her name.

528
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: We all have different ways of dealing with uncomfortable past,

529
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: but I do think that it's important. And what Eva

530
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: realizes is that until you reckon with your past, until

531
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: you forgive who you used to be somehow learn how

532
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: to get comfortable with who she was, there's really no

533
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: way to move forward in your life with any authenticity.

534
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: By the end of the knowledge, she's claimed that girl

535
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: and her weird ancestors that she was ashamed of, and

536
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: you get the feeling that she's going to move forward

537
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: and be like a stronger writer, a stronger mother. This

538
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: phrase is overused, but she's like standing in her That's

539
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: the part I was gonna say I like about romance

540
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: books is that they're accepting of them cells at the end,

541
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: like part of them getting together is part of them

542
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 1: saying like I need to be okay with these things

543
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: about me, and like how I feel about these things

544
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: no matter what that person is saying, even if that

545
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: person loves me, I still have to get past these

546
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 1: things to be able to be okay. And I really

547
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: do like that that. It's like, no, I need to

548
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: deal with things within myself so that I can still

549
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: be with this other person and it's not bothering me

550
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: these things that I haven't dealt with, so I do.

551
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 1: What's that right? It's important for female characters, no matter

552
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: the genre, Like I mean, all characters, but women are

553
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: more complicated than that. Don't tell anyone, but I think

554
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: that it's really important that I want to see this

555
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: when I'm reading. I want to see a character arc.

556
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 1: I want to see her ending up far from where

557
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: she started. I don't want to see, you know, I

558
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: want to see growth. It's inspirational and so you know

559
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: something i'd love to see here for you, Barry is

560
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: if you've seen this theme because this was prominent in

561
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: Seven Days in June, like this childhood romance and then

562
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: like reconnecting later in life. Is that something that you

563
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: see as a theme and a lot of the things

564
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: that you read, I do see things like that childhood

565
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: or even like college to adult story, like you know,

566
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: we came back around five or ten years and now

567
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: we're in the same city and we're talking about the

568
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: same things, like okay, or I knew you like as

569
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: a teenager and we kind of in the same circles,

570
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: but I can pay attention to you. But now that

571
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: we're adults and kind of looks fun, I want to

572
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: find right type of things. So I like that circle

573
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: back type of story, that kind of thing of like

574
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: maybe the person was around but you just weren't ready

575
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: or having those conversations. So now that you're adults, it

576
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,479
Speaker 1: can come back around and you all can revisit what

577
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: might be type of things. So the trope is officially

578
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: called second chance romance. So if that's something that listeners

579
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: are into, like, you can literally hashtag search and Twitter

580
00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: or any social media platforms second chance rou and you'll

581
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: just get a list mm hmmm. Yeah. The Perfect Fine

582
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: hand a bit of that as well to you. So

583
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: is that something that you really enjoy like writing about

584
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: the second chance romance? Well, I think the perfect find

585
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 1: is enemies to love her. There's very specific romance troops

586
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: and sometimes they overlap. But the Perfect Fine because they

587
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: did not like each other and then they really didn't

588
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: like each other. And then they fell madly in love

589
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: with each other. A second chance romance has to be

590
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: like a significant amount of time between when you were

591
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: together and then when you get back together. Okay, more

592
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: from my conversation with Tia and Barry after the break.

593
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: Can you say more about some of these other troops.

594
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: I am not deep enough into the genre to know

595
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: that there are all these terms. So what are some

596
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: of the other ones, like the other kind of themes? Okay,

597
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: so the second chance romance, enemies to lovers, friends to lovers,

598
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: fake relationship, which is one that I loveship? Do you

599
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: want to take it? I need you to see my fiance.

600
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 1: I have a family event coming. I really need somebody

601
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,520
Speaker 1: with me because I don't want to have a conversation.

602
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: But it is somebody. I'm asking a person that I

603
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: kind of like, so that when we're there and we

604
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: have to share rooms, things, um, you know, a little

605
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: bit more complicated. And then by the end of the

606
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: time where together, Okay, date to a wedding, Like we're

607
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: gonna pretend we're together for this wedding, you know, because

608
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to explain anything to my grandma. I'm

609
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: still single like that okay, any others think of others.

610
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: I like the one night stand, Okay, I had a baby,

611
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: or I'm pregnant type of things like coming back around.

612
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: Um me, that's always surprising, like what they have the

613
00:33:53,360 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 1: person like say or have the react type of things. Good, yeah,

614
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: like oh there's a baby, Like yeah, that's a fun one.

615
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: I knew a secret that I didn't tell you, and

616
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: then when it comes out, it's like, you're gonna told

617
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: me the entire tive. I like, you work for me.

618
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: That's really good, Like you're on my payroll, Like we

619
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: can't do this in the office obviously, and then they're

620
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: called after hours in a conference room. I like one

621
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 1: famous person, one regular person, regular you know what I mean,

622
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: not regular, not famous. I'm I'm a fan, like right now,

623
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 1: I've been deep into sports one so like where it's

624
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: a hog Like I'm like the hockey team. So it's

625
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: all like men players type of things or that kind

626
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: of thing. So I'm into like and this the hockey team.

627
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: That's like so it goes player to player to player

628
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: and you kind of hear about an organization type of thing.

629
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: I know, Para Sean has like a one like that.

630
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: I've done Serena Bowin. That's one person like I've found

631
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: her during a PANDIM and I love her all the things.

632
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: So I'm like, I love a sports romance of like, okay,

633
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 1: because the timing during normal romance, you can be together

634
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: at any time. So with sports romances, this person is

635
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: going to games a lot, and you're doing things over

636
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: a month time and two months time, and like you know,

637
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: like the spacing is just different and what they expect

638
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: from the other person of like not always be able

639
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: to do a person a person. So there's text or

640
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: emails or like different like things. So which is a

641
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: lot of the ones of celebrity and one isn't trope

642
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: as well. It's like okay, I'm on tour or you're

643
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 1: coming with me, like everything is heightening. Yes, oh my gosh,

644
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: I have to try this. The sports one. Jacy Burton

645
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,760
Speaker 1: is a good one too, so to try the Okay,

646
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: So to you, do you see this area you talked

647
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: earlier about like kind of how self publishing really just

648
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 1: opened up the doors, But do you see this genre

649
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: as one where more black women are getting contracts like

650
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: from some of the major publishing houses. I mean, yeah,

651
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: but we're not paid this am. I don't want to

652
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: complain because it's absolutely true. Right now, there's like a renaissance.

653
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: We're definitely getting deals, um, not getting the same deals. M.

654
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: But at least we're in the door and our books

655
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: on shelves, and that representation is just so important m M. Yeah.

656
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: And you know, we talked earlier to in a previous

657
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: conversation My Head with Dr Rockheale Gates, who does a

658
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: lot around black women in reality TV. She talked about

659
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 1: how sometimes it's difficult for like reality shows that have

660
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: a black cast to do well with white audiences. But

661
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: your book was chosen as a recist Pick Book Club, right,

662
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: And so I'm wondering if that same kind of thing

663
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: happens with romance novels, Like have you seen any of that,

664
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: like difficulties with white readers kind of taking to your characters.

665
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 1: I don't think we have enough time for this question.

666
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: I have to be honest with you, Like this is

667
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: a whole podcast theme in it of itself. It's funny

668
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: because I actually haven't because I mentioned before that I

669
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 1: write mostly I'm inspired from my life when I write

670
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: my books, and so I spent fifteen years as a

671
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: beauty editor at a fashion magazine, so my characters were

672
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: in fashion or beauty, and for a time I was

673
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: the only black beauty editor at the mainstream magazine, not

674
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: counting the Essence women in Ebony, I mean like at

675
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: l and Bow and so I also worked at Essence too,

676
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: and working with just an entire floor of black women

677
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: was like, I didn't go to an abc U, So

678
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,439
Speaker 1: I feel like that's my AHDCU experience that was going

679
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: to for me, but no prior to that, like it

680
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: was it was just me. And so I'm writing from

681
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: this place with people that are like the only black

682
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: in the infections that they're in, and so that's like

683
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: a comfy point of entry for a white reader. This

684
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: was not done intentionally on my part. This is just

685
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 1: the life I have, you know. And even now as

686
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 1: an executive editorial director at est Lauder companies, like I'm

687
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 1: definitely the only black editorial director, and so it feels

688
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: safer to enter into a book. I always have white characters.

689
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: My characters are doing are in professions that are traditionally white,

690
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: and so I think it just as yeah, like I said,

691
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: an easier point of entry. I mean I actually had

692
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 1: black readers. When I wrote The Accedental Deva write mates

693
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: saying I didn't know that that black women could do that,

694
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: Like Barry was saying earlier, these stories that are centered

695
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: around us, they can open the audience's minds two things

696
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: you never had even thought about. If you're black and

697
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: you don't know anyone who has gone to New York

698
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: and started a career as an art gallerist, you've always

699
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: liked art, like, Okay, well, then I guess we do that.

700
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: Sometimes you don't know you can do something until you

701
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: see it. I can say, just to speak on a

702
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: little bit of what you said after, just like white

703
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: audiences and black books, like I'm a big person, just

704
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: like with podcast where I want to meet podcasters and

705
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: I've met my favorite author, so I've met Ellen, I've

706
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: met Frances Ray, Brindis Jackson, those kind of people. I

707
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: would say, it kind of felt like when the person

708
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: had a big enough fanship that like they were talked

709
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: about other places, people like no matter what the subject was,

710
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: Because I'm like Ellen Harris and I'm like I would

711
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: go to he was coming to Denver and he would

712
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 1: still out of room and it wasn't a lot of

713
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: black people. So I'm like it felt like people that

714
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: were talked about and like understood like creating a conversation

715
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: and chatter and like that had a bigger thing than

716
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: people that like just kind of wrote good books and

717
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 1: kind of put it out because I'm like, there's a

718
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 1: lot of books I remember from the nineties where I

719
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: was like it was like they did one or two

720
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: books and like, you know, they were gone. It was

721
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: like a good thing, but it felt like we didn't

722
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: have the chatter on our side because we don't have

723
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: the media the type of thing. But like to keep

724
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: that thing going, you're not gonna walk in a safe

725
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,280
Speaker 1: way in Denver and find, you know, a black romance

726
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 1: book the same way you can just find a random

727
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 1: white romance book or like different books type of things.

728
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,959
Speaker 1: So to me, I've been glad to see people take

729
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 1: off in romance or like you know, get talked about

730
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: on a bigger level because that brings other conversations in

731
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: because I'm like, all right, if that book is going viral,

732
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: that means other people are looking for more books than

733
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: that brings more conversation and like hopefully more people into

734
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: the conversation. And I'm like I remember being in high

735
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,040
Speaker 1: school and having favorite books and I'm like, I can't

736
00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: find those on Amazon now, Like if we if they're

737
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: probably maybe and my friends like garage or something if

738
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: we went and through look. But I'm like, there's so

739
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: many authors that like we loved. I remember there book

740
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: called True Blue, and like, I can't remember who the

741
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: author was. I just remember it was in the nineties

742
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: and me and my husbin loves this book and I'm like,

743
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: I can't find it anywhere and it was just a

744
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: black romance book. And I'm like, we don't have that

745
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: where I can look back up pretty easily and find

746
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: some book that I thought of that I loved and

747
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: it was obscure. So it's like we just don't have

748
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: what the other people have in ways, and so I'm

749
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 1: glad that people are getting more attention and more people

750
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: like this was pick for recently. I was like, that's

751
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: something big we're out here. Look at the black authors

752
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 1: where romance like we do love on all types of levels.

753
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 1: So like I've blasted the conversations on Twitter, aren't just

754
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 1: the conversations on Twitter, and other people are seeing it

755
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,400
Speaker 1: and like putting it in a bigger way, because like

756
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: our our w A mess like made a whole big conversations.

757
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: I'm like, who gets things and who gets wet and

758
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 1: who was actually knowledge and who's actually building the space

759
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: and like coming and I'm like when our w A

760
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 1: came to Denver, Colorado, I was like, I'm gonna go

761
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 1: down there and me Beverly Jenkins and I'm gonna go

762
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: and meet the authors I like. And I've liked that,

763
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: but I'm like, if it's at the expensive them feeling

764
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: like they're not great or like those people are making

765
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: them feel, you know, worse as an author, when I

766
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: think they're the best thing, you can come by yourself

767
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: and I'll figure out how to get there or tell

768
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: me you're gonna go somewhere and I'll figure it out.

769
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 1: Because it's like I understand I want people to expand,

770
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: but I also understand some of those space aren't for

771
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,360
Speaker 1: them and are hurtful to them, so it might not

772
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: be the space for them. So it's just kind of

773
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: like I wish more, but I understand. Yeah. Yeah, final

774
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: question for both of you, I would love to hear

775
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 1: your thoughts about like where you are excited for the

776
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 1: genre to go next, Like what is left? Where are

777
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: the movies more? Well, you have a couple coming out, right,

778
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 1: so the perfect find just wrapped in. I think Seven

779
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: Days in June has been optioned, right, it has, Yeah,

780
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 1: for a TV series. I want more. I mean I

781
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: don't want. I don't mean I want you personally, I

782
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: mean I want, Yeah, I want to see all of

783
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: Jasmine's books as movies. During the process of Seven Days

784
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: in June being optioned, like, one of the questions that

785
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: always came up was what's your favorite big screen or

786
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 1: TV black love story? And invariably it was love Jones

787
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 1: and that was and that's not okay, Yeah, yeah, it's

788
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: too far way. I want to see it on the

789
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 1: big screen or you know, my TV. So that's really

790
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: I really hope that more books get optioned, and I

791
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: hope that film production companies are looking beyond the really

792
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: big books and considering some of these smaller ones that

793
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:22,319
Speaker 1: have like really passionate followings but aren't on a bestseller's list,

794
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 1: or even fan fiction. There is some amazing fan fiction

795
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: out there written by black women. So yeah, that's what

796
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: I would really love to see as a movie buff. Yeah,

797
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 1: I need that. Okay, what about you? Vy. I can

798
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: see that more stories are being told, like Brenda Jackson

799
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: as of This is Love a podcast episode claining how

800
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: she did it. There's a black romance podcast. I think

801
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: it's called Black Romance Podcast. A media space. There's always

802
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: been this big thing, as me a social media person,

803
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: that a lot of black authors didn't understand how to

804
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: promote themselves. They didn't know like what podcasts to go to,

805
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: they didn't know the space they can go to. There's

806
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 1: like we'll see them and like we connect that type

807
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: of thing. So I feel like I'm seeing that space

808
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 1: being built, like as a connection of like we don't

809
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: have to go through a Today show to try to

810
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: find somebody else. It's like I can listen to the

811
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 1: Black Romance podcast, or there's a Twitter page. I think

812
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: it's a Woman of Color Romance like it might be

813
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: listening on there when they put out their list or

814
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: they're doing their Patreon and things like that. So I'm

815
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: finding the mp between space of like how do I

816
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: find you all talking about your things and doing that

817
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: without having to follow you everywhere because I'm not going

818
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: to do that. Those spaces are being built and I'm

819
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: hoping that more people pay attention to those spaces and

820
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: give love to those spaces so that those kind of

821
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: places can be built, so we don't have to necessarily

822
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: look at those other places if we don't want to.

823
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 1: We can be like, oh, I listened to this, and

824
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: this is how I found this. This is I go

825
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: to a Woman of Color romance and I know that

826
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: new pot books are there. I'm a big person. I'm

827
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: always on Romance and Color dot com. I don't know

828
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: if anybody else goes to that anymore, but they list

829
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 1: the books that come out throughout the year that are black,

830
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: and that's like something I've probably done for ever, and

831
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: I'm like Romance of Color dot com. I probably go

832
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 1: there five wits in times a week like okay, what's

833
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: coming up? What you know what's been out? When I'm

834
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,239
Speaker 1: looking for a new books and I'm like, there's things

835
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: like that, and just looking into those spaces and feeding

836
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: into those spaces to know that we are looking at

837
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 1: those two fine stuff. I remember that site. I didn't

838
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: know that it was still still going. Wow, I have

839
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: to check it out. Yes, So, Tia, where can people

840
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: find you? Hopefully on Romance of Color on Instagram. I'm

841
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: to Williams right. On Twitter, I'm Tia w Underscore right,

842
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: and on Facebook I'm Tia Williams and books can be

843
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: found everywhere. Yeah yeah, and what about you being um well,

844
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 1: I'm Podcasts and color so podcasts with an s in color, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook,

845
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: dot com. Perfect. Well. Thank you both so much for

846
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: chatting with me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you

847
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: so much fun. Thanks for having me romance books in

848
00:45:53,320 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: any time. Yes, same, I'm so glad that's you and

849
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 1: Barry were able to join us today. To grab your

850
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: copy of seven Days in June and sign up for

851
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,279
Speaker 1: the book club, or to check out the podcast and

852
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: color directory, be sure to visit the show notes at

853
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session to nineteen,

854
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: and don't forget to text two of your girls and

855
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: tell them to check out the episode as well. If

856
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, be sure

857
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 1: to check out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black

858
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 1: Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want to

859
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: continue digging into this topic or just be in community

860
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: with other sisters, come on over and join us in

861
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner of the Internet.

862
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: Design just for black women. You can join us at

863
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: community dot Therapy for black girls dot com. Thank you

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00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me again this week. I

865
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: look forward to continue in this conversation with you all

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00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: real soon. Take good care,