1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. On March third, two Americans 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,480 Speaker 1: were killed in daylight abductions after their minivan of four 3 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: traveled across the US Mexican border into Matamoros, Mexico. The 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: Golf Cartel later apologized and said the kidnappers had acted 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: on their own and they were turning them over to authorities. 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: The incident of innocent Americans being killed after they crossed 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: the US Mexican border led me to consider how much 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: Mexico had become a narco state and how the cartels 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 1: who control Mexico should be designated as terrorist organizations. The 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: US must help the Mexican people defeat the Mexican drug cartels, 11 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: both for our long term security and survival. And four 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: Mexicos here to talk about the current crisis in Mexico. 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: And I'm really pleased to welcome my guests and my 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: good friend Joshua Trevino, Chief of Intelligence and Research at 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: the Texas Public Policy Foundation. Josh Welcome, and thank you 16 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: for joining me in news World. Thank you, speaker, very 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: glad to be here. Honored. I thought it was fascinating 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: that the Golf Cartel would probably show a letter. I mean, 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: the whole notion that they're a semi sovereign state of 20 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: their own right and say that they really felt badly 21 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: about it and they condemned it. I mean, what do 22 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: you make of all this? Was this just a random 23 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: moment of some of the guys going nuts. It could 24 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: be that, but I don't think we know the whole 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: story yet. You know, what happened to up happening was 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: that there were five men who were bound and there 27 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: was a handwritten letter kind of attached to them with 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: an apology from what purported to be the Gulf Cartel. 29 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: I've talked with some sources in Mexico about this, and 30 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: there's some doubt as to whether or not it was 31 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: a rival faction trying to set up the Cartel del Gulfo. 32 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: In this, we don't really know, and we don't even 33 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: really have the full story as to what happened to 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: the Americans down there. Obviously, there were four leonard to murdered, 35 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: and thank god, two of them are back. But as 36 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: with so many things in Mexican violence and in cartel world, 37 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: the full story is yet to be known. And the 38 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: only thing that we can say for certain is exactly 39 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: what you said, which is that it's really the cartels 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: that are the effective sovereigns of much of Mexico at 41 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: this point. Well, you know, back in twenty nineteen, drug 42 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: cartel gunman killed nine US citizens, members of the Church 43 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: or Latter day Saints in an ambush, and it was strange. 44 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: They killed six children and three women. I mean, what 45 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: was the sense of that. Well, it was a message 46 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: to that particular family. So some of your listeners probably 47 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: know that there are Mormon colonies offshoot LDS colonies in 48 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: northern Mexico. They have a history that goes back in 49 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: many cases to the nineteenth century, and the le Baron 50 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: family is a descendants of one of them, their dual 51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: US Mexican nationals, and one of their civic virtues, I 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: think is that they don't really want to have much 53 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: to do with cartel operations. So you have this caravan 54 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: of mothers and children who were traveling in the state 55 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: of Sonora and they were ambushed. I believe it was 56 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Lallanea who did the ambush, and they killed the mothers 57 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 1: and the cars with gunfire and several of the children. 58 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 1: It's a horrific detail, but it must be said because 59 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: it really illuminates just who and what the cartels are. 60 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: Many of the children's dropped in their car seats who 61 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: were set on fire with the vehicles, and it was 62 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: a message to the Labaran family to get on board 63 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 1: and stop at starting the cartels. A cruel and horrific message. 64 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: But I think this is the thing that all of 65 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: us in the United States need to take away from it. 66 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: There was an era in which that would not have 67 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: happened because of the known nationality of the Americans involved. 68 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: And if that vale of protection has dropped, which it has, 69 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: and if the cartels do not fear retribution, which they don't, 70 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: then the fault lies, of course in them for their monstrousness, 71 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: but also in us on the United States side, for 72 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: failing to exert that level of deterrence. And that's the 73 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: policy question we need to think about now. In twenty twenty, 74 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: there were one hundred and forty nine deaths of US 75 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: citizens in Mexico, about a third of them were homicides. 76 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, there were two hundred and three 77 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: deaths recorded, seventy five of which were homicides, and in 78 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: the first six months of twenty twenty two, there were 79 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: one hundred and fifteen deaths. These are all US citizens, 80 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: of which twenty five were homicides. Now in Canada, and 81 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 1: the same six month period when there were one hundred 82 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: and fifteen deaths in Mexico, there were seven deaths of 83 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: US citizens in Canada, none of which were homicides. Is 84 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: it in fact becoming more dangerous to be American in 85 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: Mexico just because there's so many thousands of Americans visiting Mexico. 86 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: Is that actually not a significant problem. Well, it's becoming 87 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: more dangerous to be in Mexico, period, and obviously it 88 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: varies from place to place. There are places of Mexico 89 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: that continue to be reasonably safe. Mexico City a lot 90 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 1: of it continues to be reasonably safe if you consider 91 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies New York City safe. But there are areas 92 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,799 Speaker 1: in northern Mexico, for example, Mata Morris, where even someone 93 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: like me who works in Mexico policy simply will not 94 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: go trust the stats out of Mexico in full candor. 95 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: There's a lot of political influence that happens with them. 96 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that the homicide tracking is great. I 97 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: think the numbers that you gave serve to illustrate one 98 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: big point though, which is that it's far more dangerous 99 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 1: exponentially so to go to Mexico than it is to 100 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: a place like Canada. And the reason for that is 101 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: that Mexico in general is dangerous. A lot of these 102 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: homicides are of Mexican American dual nationals, many of them 103 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 1: from my own Texas, who travel to Mexico to see family, 104 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: or shop or go on touristic ventures, for example, and 105 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: that is sort of a signaling mechanism. I would say 106 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: that again, the reluctance to taget Americans is fading, and 107 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: this is what I've heard directly from DA personnel in 108 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: Mexico City, and also that Mexican civic life is continuing 109 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: on a slow slide downward and that is going to 110 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,119 Speaker 1: inevitably affect us here in the United States. The State 111 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: Department has issue do not travel warnings for a number 112 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: of Mexican states. The level for warning says do not 113 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: travel the level two warning of exercise increased caution. They 114 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: even apply now to can Koon, and there are a 115 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: number of places at the level three, which says basically 116 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: ought to reconsider what the night you're going to go there, 117 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: it's surprising to me how widespread now the State Department's 118 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: level of concern is. They're normally pretty cautious about this, 119 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: and part of this isn't just killing, but it's also kidnapping. 120 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: I was sort of shocked to read that there are 121 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,280 Speaker 1: currently five hundred and fifty Americans still missing in Mexico. 122 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: That's right, unfortunately, and I wish this were not so unfortunately. 123 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: The overwhelming majority of them are probably deceased. Your fair 124 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: means are foul, and you're right that the State Department 125 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: bureaucracy airs on the side of caution. But I think 126 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: you need to look at the disparity between what the 127 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: State Department bureaucracy is saying, which I take is broadly accurate, 128 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: and what the actual Secretary of State are saying. I'd 129 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: like to read a tweet that just came out from 130 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: Secretary of State b Lincoln. He said, I spoke with 131 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 1: the Mexican Foreign Secretary of Marcello Webbard on bolstering our 132 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: secure cooperation to combat the illicit production of fentnil and 133 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: other synthetic drugs. We value Mexico's strong partnership as we 134 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: work to keep our communities safe from criminal networks. Now, 135 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: anybody who knows what's happening in Mexico knows that this 136 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: is a borderline farce. There is no effective partnership with 137 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: the Mexican state at this point. It's papering over a 138 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: real chasm between the Mexican regime in the United States 139 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: that's getting wider and wider as a consequence of the 140 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: Mexican president's positive partnership with many of the cartels at 141 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: this point, and so breaking officialdom, especially at the top 142 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: of the Biden and White House, out of its state 143 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: of denial over what's happening on Mexico and focusing it 144 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: on American concerns. Should it not be a major concern 145 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: of our State Department, by the way, whose largest missions 146 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: are in Mexico, to ascertain the fate of these five 147 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: hundred plus Americans who are missing. In terms of missions. 148 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: Somebody told me the other day, it's also to that 149 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: the largest KGB mission, Russians intelligent mission is in Mexico City, 150 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: the largest Chinese intelligence mission is in Mexico City, and 151 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:06,119 Speaker 1: that the Iranians have a substantial presence in Mexico City. 152 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: I did not know that, but it would go to 153 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: follow Yes, sometimes we have to remind Americans or whatever 154 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: risk we are under, the people of Mexico are worse. 155 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: I mean, supposedly they're now been close to one hundred 156 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: thousand people who have disappeared in Mexico. That's just staggering. 157 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: It is anywhere else in the world what Mexico has 158 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: endured since two thousand and six would be considered a 159 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: major war. What Mexicans, ordinary Mexicans have endured at the 160 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: hands of the cartels and the state that a bets 161 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: them is simply monstrous, and it stacks up to almost 162 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: anything that you can find, for example, in the chaotic 163 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: Middle East or Africa, just in terms of just the 164 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: horrifying disregard of the citizenry there. And we have to 165 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: be aware that that's the case. You know. One of 166 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: the examples that I like to point to is the 167 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: forty three students who disappeared Sinapa several years back. We 168 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: know pretty much what happened to them now, although the 169 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: bodies have never been found. The army and local police 170 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: forces executed forty three students because the soldiers actually who 171 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: were in the pay of local cartels, so they killed 172 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: these students. The bodies disappeared, and subsequent to the disappearance 173 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen, there were a couple of years in 174 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: which there was a search by various civil society organizations 175 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: for the mass grave that was presumed to hold these students. 176 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: And here's the horrifying thing is that they never found 177 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 1: the mask grave, but they found several other mass graves 178 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:35,200 Speaker 1: all over central Mexico. And just imagine the level of 179 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: violence and capacity that's required to generate just random finding 180 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: of previously unknown mass graves while you're searching for another 181 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: one that you end up not finding. There are tragedies 182 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: unfolding in Mexico. Massacres, kidnappings, rapes, murders that will never 183 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: know about. But they are scarring that society. And it 184 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: is ultimately because the state at large has made the 185 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: choice to accommodate itself to it and allow it. Until 186 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: it stops making that choice, Mexico is going to continue 187 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: to suffer. In that context you mentioned since two thousand 188 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: and six, did something decisive happen In two thousand and six, Yes, 189 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: the President of Mexico at the time, Phelippic Alderon, made 190 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 1: the decision to bring the military in versus the cartels 191 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: in Mexico, and it backfired. The institutions were at large 192 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: were incompetent to execute the mission, many of them because 193 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: they were already colluding with the cartels. And so what 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:35,079 Speaker 1: was intended as introducing the military into basically Mexicans civil affairs, 195 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: civil society, which it had not really been a part 196 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: of for the preceding seventy eighty years depending on how 197 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: you want to count, it resulted in effectively sort of 198 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: this arms race in which each side attempted to outdo 199 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: the other, and the cartels found out that they could 200 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: out escalate or buy off the forces of the state. 201 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: And since then it's sort of been not to make 202 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: light of it, but it's sort of been off to 203 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,559 Speaker 1: the races. The violence has continued, a militarization of Mexican 204 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: life has been the result, and the armed forces themselves 205 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: have turned out to not really be on the side 206 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: of the states nearly so much as they are for themselves, 207 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: which means occasionally for the cartels. And now fast forwarding 208 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: seventeen years, at this point, here we are and the 209 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: murder stats the violence has never been worse. Actually goes 210 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:40,479 Speaker 1: also a major source of our drug problem and it's staggering, 211 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: But between two thousand and twelve and two twenty one, 212 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: six hundred and fifty six thousand Americans have died from 213 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: drug overdoses. That is literally twelve times as many has 214 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: died in the entire eight years of the Vietnam War. Yeah, 215 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: exactly right. And if this were the result of anything 216 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: but drug over us as, we would already be at 217 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: war with the purveyors. I mean, half the problem is 218 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: us and that our culture has so collapsed that people 219 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: think risking their lives on drugs is a legitimate exercise. 220 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: But the other half is people who deliberately go out 221 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: and market these drugs and bring them in here knowing 222 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: that in the case of fundyl, for example, it's going 223 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: to kill a lot of people. Now, according to the 224 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: US Drug Enforce and Administration, there are nine major cartels 225 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: that have the greatest drug traffic impact in the United States. 226 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: It seems to me that part of what we've seen 227 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: is these cartels get richer and richer, and they get bigger, 228 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: and that we underestimate what their reach is inside the 229 00:12:42,559 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: United States. We do. Every one of them has significant 230 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: networks inside the United States, mostly devoted to distribution so 231 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: their operational approach in the US is of necessity different 232 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: than it is in Mexico. They're focused on distribution. They're 233 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: not focused on targeting the police, killing mayors, things like that, 234 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: things that they do as a matter of course in Mexico. 235 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: And that's because we do have a more robust state 236 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: and civil society here in the US. But that doesn't 237 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: mean they don't have a corrupting influence. I can name 238 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: you three Texas sheriffs right off the bat County sheriffs 239 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: who effectively were subcontractors for the cartels. There was Sheriff 240 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: Gunthu in Cameron County, which is where Brownsville. His nickname 241 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: was protect the Load because he was in the pay 242 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: of Cartel del Gulfo. And there was Sheriff Lupe Throvino, 243 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: a fellow Travino in Hidalgo County who he and his 244 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: son subcontracted the sheriff's office out to Los Sethos. And 245 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: then there was a sheriff out in Presidio County who 246 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: subcontracted himself out to the Ohinaga cartel as well. And 247 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: so these are the examples that we know about. Then 248 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 1: probably the actual problem of corruption to public officialdom in 249 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: the United States is much much larger, and I would 250 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: caution the listeners to not assume that it's just a 251 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: border phenomenon. These drugs have to be distributed everywhere from 252 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: Maine to Oregon to California and back, and that requires 253 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: a network to see it all through. So they're here, 254 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: they're in the communities, and they are an eroding force 255 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 1: on American civics real large. To what extent is there 256 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: a very real danger that if we do decide, as 257 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: many people would like us to, that we're going to 258 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: designate these as terrorist organizations, and if we methodically start 259 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: going after them, that in fact, they will also wage 260 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: war in the United States, not just passively in Mexico. 261 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: I think it's a real concern. I think it would 262 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: be foolish to dismiss the possibility, especially if they feel 263 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: existentially threatened, and especially if they feel that they have 264 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: a political or ideological legal to the struggle, which many 265 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: of them do. Actually, it's an error to think of them, 266 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: for example, is kind of a non political mafia type organization. 267 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: They're much more. They cohere much more than that. That 268 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: being said, the analysis that we make we actually do 269 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: at the Texas Public Policy Foundation have a paper on 270 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: this coming out in the coming forty eight hours. Is 271 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: that they're already at war with us, and so it's 272 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: not as if there's another level for them to go 273 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: to that won't do equivalent damage to what they're already do. 274 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean we dismiss concerns that they raise or 275 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: the challenge that they pose. But at the same time, 276 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: to your point, hundreds of thousands, half a million plus 277 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: of Americans have died at the hands of the drugs 278 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: that they prevail and the activities that they undertake, and 279 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: we have an obligation to oppose it, and by opposing 280 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: ended The former Ambassador to Mexico, Christi Orlando, estimated that 281 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: thirty five to forty percent of Mexico is now under 282 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: direct cartel rule. Correct. He did that in the public forum, 283 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: and the Mexican President just about lost his mind over 284 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: the statement. Of course, he's the one who has made 285 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: the choice to allow it. It's functionally true the writ 286 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: of law, the writ of authority, and much of Mexico, 287 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: particularly in places like Domolipas or in the highlands, have 288 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: seen la or in Tierra Caliente down south simply does 289 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: not run, but the writ of the cartel bosses does, 290 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: and that's a deliberate surrender of sovereignty that the Mexican 291 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: state could choose to take on but has not. One 292 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: of the proofs of that concept was in October twenty nineteen, 293 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: when Mexican troops went into Sinaloa and arrested El Chapo's son. 294 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: There were seven hundred cartel fighters with armored cars, rocket launchers, 295 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: and heavy machine guns and the military had to release 296 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: the prisoner. It's even worse than that. They didn't have 297 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: to release the prisoner. They were under siege, and there 298 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: is ample reason to suspect that they could have tucked 299 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: it out and sent a relief column in. They released 300 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: the prisoner because the President of Mexico himself andres Manuel 301 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: Lopez Oblador, made a phone call and ordered them to 302 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: do so to bring the battle in Quilliakan to an end. 303 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: Now he presents this as a humanitarian gesture, of course, 304 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: it really showed who's really in charge, and that's just 305 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: had terrible consequences in succeeding months. That same son of 306 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: El Chapo, Vidio Ireton, was captured again in January, the 307 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 1: Sinaloan Cartel tried the same thing. They brought out their 308 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: light infantry. They shut down several airports. I believe they 309 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: forced down They didn't shoot down, but they forced down 310 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: some aviation, which is suggestive of considerable military capacity on 311 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: their part. And this time Sedana, which is the army, 312 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: held firm and got the guy out and now he 313 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: is in attention. But the interesting detail after that, and 314 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: this was not reported in the US press. I actually 315 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: had to get this from Spanish media, so Alpais in particular, 316 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: who has some very good reporters in Mexico. The Mexican 317 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: army tried to distribute aid packages to the local population 318 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: after the battle was over, and the local population rejected it. 319 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: There were a lot of people who told them, you 320 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 1: need to get out. You're not our army, you don't 321 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: represent us. You've come and you've destroyed our neighborhoods. And 322 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: let's speaker. I know you are a student of insurgency, 323 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: encounter insurgency, and you will recognize that immediately as a 324 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: classic insurgency situation in which the population identifies with the 325 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: non state sovereign force over the punitive armed forces of 326 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the country. And that's an incredibly dangerous place from Mexico 327 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: to be, and it's a dangerous place for the United 328 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 1: States to have a neighbor with one hundred and thirty 329 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: million population next door to it, that is in that circumstance. 330 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: Isn't it true that the president of Mexico, Oberdor actually 331 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: went to see the mother of one of the cartel leaders, 332 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: not just any cartel leader, Iguato, and paid homage to 333 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: the mother of El Chappo himself. You know, El Chappo, 334 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: who's currently spending the rest of his life in Supermax 335 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: in Colorado right now, deservedly, but he went to her 336 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: and paid his respects to her. And as even having 337 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: the army, I believe this project is still underway build 338 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 1: a road up to her hometown, which previously did not 339 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: have a paid road to it. And so there's sort 340 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,120 Speaker 1: of this obeisance in respect that's being paid. More than 341 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 1: one journalist in Mexico has said to me that they 342 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: can't find a single example of the Mexican president saying 343 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: a negative word about the sin A Loan cartel, and 344 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: that is extremely telling. He's got plenty of negative words 345 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: for the United States and the Americans and for conservatives 346 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: in Mexico and for fellow Mexican citizens. And he has 347 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: this whole roster paid objects. But he'll never say a 348 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,920 Speaker 1: negative word about the Sina loans. Are the Cineloa is 349 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: the biggest of the cartels, we can't be sure they 350 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: are among the top three. I think it's safe to say, 351 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: if I had to make a list, I would say 352 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: it's probably then Cartel del Gulfo, New Generation Jalisco, and 353 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: maybe Lafemilia Michoa. In November of twenty twenty two, you 354 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: wrote a paper called hold Them Accountable Mexican Elites in 355 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: the Cartels, and you wrote, Texas should compile a list 356 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: of corrupt Mexican elites and request the federal government to 357 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 1: deny them enter the US or revoke their visas. Why 358 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: are we already doing that? We aren't doing it because 359 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: the policymaking class in DC. This is changing, thankfully for 360 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: the better, but it has been very, very slow to 361 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: adjust to the realities of Mexico in the past decade. 362 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: You know, a lot of Mexico policymaking is still gripped 363 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: by what I'll called this nineteen ninety four consensus. Nineteen 364 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: ninety four, of course, is the nafty year in which 365 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: we basically agreed to let Mexico have free trade with 366 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: US and enter into this community of nations with the expectation, 367 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 1: it's a very nineties expectation, you'll remember this, that everyone 368 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,360 Speaker 1: was going to be uplifted by the promise of free 369 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: trade and democracy, and it was going to work for 370 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: the PRC, and it was going to work for Mexico 371 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 1: as well. That reality has obviously been disproven. Mexico has 372 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: actually gotten worse in many ways. For policymakers to kind 373 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: of divorce from self in this and face the reality 374 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: that they have very, very difficult tasks ahead of them, 375 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: Number one being how do you deal with the Mexico 376 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: that is not a partner? How do you deal with 377 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: the Mexico that may be an antagonist. There's just a 378 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: reluctance to do it. And so when this list of 379 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: corrupt actors that you're referring to, it's called the Angle 380 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: lists at the federal level was generated, it was only 381 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: applied to Central American nations, so the Northern Triangle, and 382 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: I believe they added Nicaragua shortly thereafter, but obviously they 383 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: need to add Mexico to it. It is so critical 384 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: that they do so, in no small part because Mexico 385 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: depends and these Mexican elites depend upon access to the 386 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: United States not just for their economy, but also for 387 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: their way of life. There's a particular lifestyle and Texans 388 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: know it very well. Of elite Mexicans who go to 389 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: the hospital in Houston, they send their kids to Ute Austin. 390 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: They parked their capital and real estate in the Rear 391 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: Grand Valley, and the threat of being denied that is 392 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: a much more compelling threat than any appeal to civic 393 00:20:54,119 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: rectitude or even national patriotism. On that side, Let's say 394 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: that we did declare that they were cherished organizations, to 395 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: what do we would you use genuine military capabilities into 396 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 1: what degree? Would you simply use it as an excuse 397 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: to restrict them in the United States? Great question. There's 398 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: been two incidents in recent memory that I think would 399 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: have justifiably triggered unilateral use of military force in Mexico 400 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: American military force in Mexico. One is what we just discussed, 401 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: the massacre of the Labaron women and children that should 402 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: have triggered an automatic response. And the other was a 403 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: little over a decade back. I don't recall the exact 404 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: year it happened, but there was a targeting of signals 405 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: intelligence collection American signal intelligence collection personnel in Mexico that 406 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: happened in Central Mexico, and it was obviously a hit 407 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: on known US government personnel. The threshold to me for 408 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: unilateral action is actually fairly high. There has to be 409 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: a very deliberate and targeted attack on Americans as such. 410 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: And then at that point, I mean, I think, within 411 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: the bounds of prudence and recognizing that you can't share 412 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: everything you know, you hope that the Mexican state goes 413 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: along with, or at least tacitly allows whatever retribution is 414 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: dished out. There's historical precedent for this, by the way. 415 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: But more to the point, my theory of action, which 416 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: I think has been validated somewhat over the past couple 417 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: of weeks of activity, is that just putting the option 418 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: on the table is going to spur Mexican official dem 419 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 1: into a flurry of action. My guess, and it's only 420 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: a guess, but it's an informed guess, is that the 421 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: number one priority of the Mexican regime right now is 422 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: to keep the Americans out, and they will do whatever 423 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: they perceive as necessary to make that happen. And if 424 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: there is a credible threat that the Americans will come in, 425 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: then they're going to do what's necessary. And I don't 426 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: think there's bonds of fraternity between the state or any 427 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: of its cartel partners, and they are partners. I think 428 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: that we've seen that Amlo will sell out any of 429 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: them in a heart beat to make the Americans happy 430 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: and to get him off his back. And at the 431 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: end of the day, I candidly don't care what his 432 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: motivations are. If he's doing things that are correct and 433 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: right and improving the situation, that's what I care about, 434 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: and that's really why I think this needs to be 435 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: on the table. We've got to revise the terms of 436 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: the relationship and really emphasize as the United States in 437 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,120 Speaker 1: every sphere economic, cultural, financial, and also military, we hold 438 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: the cards. Couldn't we, for example, simply cut off the 439 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: flow of cash remittances back into Mexico. Yeah, we absolutely could, 440 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: And that is something that's an idea I've seen going 441 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: around Jack. I believe this in legislation doesn't cut it off, 442 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: but taxes it heavily. I think we need to be 443 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: targeted in our outreach, So I'm not against that idea. 444 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: I want to be crystal player on that. However, I 445 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: think that when you look at the stratum of Mexican 446 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: elites who are really responsible for the cartel collision and 447 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: are really responsible for kind of the antagonism toward the 448 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: United States, when I look at a policy, I ask 449 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 1: myself if the policy hurts them. I don't think that 450 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: there is an upper bound to the amount of suffering 451 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: that Mexican elites will allow their people to suffer. I mean, 452 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: we've seen it in the past decade. They're simply happy 453 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: to let hundreds of thousands of their fellow countrymen die 454 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: in horrific ways. So I'd rather target them. Remittances wouldn't 455 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 1: be my first go to, and that because the people 456 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: receiving remittances are not these elites. They are mothers who 457 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 1: have to support kids and stuff like that. It's just 458 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: something that I would want to look at more and 459 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: see what the effects are and who it hits. Didn't 460 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: we actually arrest one of the highest ranking counter and 461 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: nicotics officials who turned out to have been corrupted by 462 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,239 Speaker 1: the very people he was supposed to be countering and 463 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: then have him go back to Mexico, be extradited, and 464 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: have the Mexicos just release him. Absolutely, General san Fuegos 465 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: who was arrested when he tried to change planes in 466 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: lax san Fuegos was in charge of Sedana, So you 467 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: would have to imagine the equivalent of the US Secretary 468 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: of Defense, and so he was in charge of Sedana 469 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: since retired. He was arrested because there was good evidence, 470 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: conclusive evidence to my mind, based on the publicly reported 471 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: that he was in fact El Padrino. It was essentially 472 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: this coordinating godfather of many of the cartels and directing 473 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: the interface between the army, the Mexican Army, and the 474 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: cartels in Mexico, and the Mexican Armed forces basically went 475 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: into revolt over it. You have to understand that under Omlo, 476 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: in particular, since he assumed office in December twenty eighteen, 477 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: that he's given tremendous civic power to the Mexican Armed Forces. 478 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: They control huge swanse of the economy. At this point, 479 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: they moved much more into kind of this PRC model 480 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: of not just an armed force but also a major 481 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: administrator of brand economic projects. And the armed forces effectively 482 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: told Amlo get him back or you're going to lose us, 483 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: and the army being a pillar of his regime. At 484 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: this point, he gave into the army and he threatened 485 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: to cut off all cooperation with the DA to make 486 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: it impossible for Mexicans to liaise with American law enforcement. 487 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, we gave san Fuegos back. We gave Sanfuegos 488 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: back based on a promise that turned out to be false, 489 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: which is that the Mexicans would investigate him themselves, and 490 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: as was easily foreseeable, within ten days of his return 491 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 1: to Mexico he was declared clear of all charges completely, 492 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: not a surprise. But then why would we extradite him 493 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: because of this reflex within the policy community that I 494 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, which is that the worst thing that can 495 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 1: happen is the Mexicans can stop cooperating with us. I 496 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: think this is being afraid of our own shadow. That's 497 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: kind of an example of what happens in the foreign 498 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 1: policy community a lot, which is sort of this reflex 499 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: group think. You got to keep the Mexicans happy, You 500 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: got to treat him as friends, you have to respect 501 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: their nationalistic kind of reflexes, none of which is the case. 502 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: They have to prove themselves to us, not vice versa. 503 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: But we did it. We surrendered to it. You know, 504 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: I actually have tremendous respect for former Attorney General bar 505 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: On this, and I think it was against his better judgment, 506 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: is my suspicion. I don't know that firsthand, but I 507 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: can tell you this, over the past two weeks he's 508 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: been saying all the right things about Mexico and needing 509 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: to get tough with them, and I have to imagine 510 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,719 Speaker 1: that that experience plays a direct role in his policy 511 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: preferences and advocacy. Now, if the US really began cracking down, 512 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: how much would that discomfort the elite and the cartels. Well, 513 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: it would depend on what specifically we did. But if 514 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: we did it in a way that, for example, I 515 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: would prefer, and I think the Foundation would prefer as 516 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: well out in Austin, it would discomfort them quite a bit. 517 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: To deny access to the United States, to deny access 518 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: to money that's here, to realize that there's suddenly a 519 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: linkage between security and trade, which we've refused to do 520 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: by the way over the past three decades, would be 521 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: world chattering for a lot of them, and I think 522 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: there would be some real blowback and force a transformation 523 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: within the system there. Whether it's for ill or better, 524 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: who's to say. But at least they would know that 525 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: the era of taking advantage of us goodwill, which is 526 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: exactly what's been happening especially over the past decade, is over. 527 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: In response to our increased rick and are increased legislative initiatives, 528 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 1: President Obrador called a press statement last Thursday, and I 529 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,679 Speaker 1: thought sort of went crazy, attacking us and saying he 530 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: was going to campaign against Republicans. Frankly, if I were 531 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: the Republican Party, I'd be pretty happy to have a 532 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: contrast with a pro Narco, the ally of the cartels. 533 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 1: I'm not sure he's thought this sort But were you 534 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: surprised at the level of intensity of his language? No, no, 535 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't. Actually, this is absolutely characteristic with how he 536 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: treats his perceived domestic opponents in Mexico as well. The 537 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: Mexican president is a left, populous, messianic figure who is 538 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 1: unburdened by any shred of self doubt. Ever, he became 539 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: president in twenty eighteen on his third tribe for the presidency. 540 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: First two he's dead convinced and still rails about the 541 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: theory that they were stolen from him, and so he 542 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: still carries that with him. He believes that he is 543 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: presiding over what he calls the Day the four. It's 544 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: the fourth transformation of Mexican society. So in his mind, 545 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: and he really does mean this, his presidency is the 546 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: equivalent to the three previous transformations, which were independence from Spain, 547 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: the Wars of reform in the eighteen fifties and sixties, 548 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: and then the Mexican Revolution nineteen ten to nineteen twenties. 549 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: So you have to have a pretty good sense of 550 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: yourself to put yourself up on kind of that pedestal. 551 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: And so he believes that US conservatives are in league 552 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: with Mexican conservatives to bring him down and to bring 553 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: the Mexican nation down. And he thinks of himself in 554 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: sort of this father of the Nation capacity. And now 555 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: he knows he's not a stupid man. He's cunning, but 556 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: he's saluted by his own concept of self. He knows 557 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: that there are several million Americans of Mexican descent. I'm 558 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: one of them, And he thinks that obviously, like we 559 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: all look to him as our own by the reno. 560 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: I want to put thrown the man who will tell 561 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: us what to do as Mexicans, and it's simply false. 562 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: I share your instinctive reaction is that I think every 563 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: Republican running for office in twenty twenty four ought to 564 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: send a letter asking that the president of Mexico campaigned 565 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: against him, because not only will it help them in 566 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: the general, it's going to help them with Hispanic voters 567 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: in the United States too. There's no purchase for this 568 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: kind of thing here. I'll just add this. For a 569 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: guy who talks incessantly about the need for the United 570 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: States to respect Mexican sovereignty, his willingness to immediately trespass 571 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: upon American sovereignty really just shows you how little respect 572 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: he and I think Mexican elites were large have for 573 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: their partner to the north. Let me ask one last 574 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: big thing, which is I get worried about any proposal 575 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: to use military force in Mexico for two very different reasons. One, 576 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a very good idea for us to 577 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: keep the police between the cartels and the military, because 578 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: of the enormous danger of the cartels, eventually corrupting the 579 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: American military agreed. And two, I have a hunch that 580 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: if we did go into Mexico and the current environment, 581 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 1: that we would arouse Mexico nationalism against us. In the end, 582 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: the Mexican people would dislike Americans operating in their country 583 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 1: more than they dislike the cartels. I think those are 584 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: both really good cautions. On the first one, I think 585 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: it's important to understand that the cartels are going to 586 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: corrupt whatever organization they come into contact with. And there 587 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: are unfortunately several examples of US military personnel, principally guardsmen 588 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: who have been found to be in cartel pay for 589 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: one reason or another. They're either directing contents of an 590 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: armory south or they're helping shuttle drugs or something along 591 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: those lines. So I don't know that you can avoid that. Obviously, 592 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: if there's a law enforcement option. In Texas, we have 593 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: the Texas Ranger tradition, which is always very nice in 594 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: them up for reviving. But I think that's something that 595 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: we're going to have to deal with, and as we go, 596 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: we're going to have to be very very conscious of 597 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: anti corruption efforts in general, because you're right, that's the 598 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: danger to us. I think as far as aggravating Mexican 599 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: nationalism that is so circumstantially dependent, I am not at 600 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: all in favor of a lot of what's been bandied 601 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: about in recent weeks, and sort of this still deflined 602 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: invasion in Mexico. We're not going to rerun eighteen six 603 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: eighteen forty seven, and we aren't even going to rerun 604 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: nineteen sixteen, where we had a column kind of wandering 605 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: about northern Mexico for several months looking for a man 606 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: that we never caught. When I think of US operations 607 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: in Mexico, I'm thinking much more over the horizon capacity, 608 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: very limited entry followed by prompt exits. It's very very 609 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: opaque to me to conceive, very difficult for me to 610 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: conceive any kind of a standing presence in Mexico. I 611 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: don't think it's desirable or prudent. All that said, it 612 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 1: is possible to do in a way where the whole 613 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: of the Mexican nation is aroused against us, But we 614 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: need to think through the extent of whether or not 615 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: that's true. There is some evidence in polling, and none 616 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: of it's conclusive to my mind, but it's quite difficult 617 00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: to pull in Mexico in general, and it's difficult to 618 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: pull on this topic in particular. There's some evidence in 619 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 1: polling that there's a substantive number of Mexicans, perhaps even 620 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: a majority, who welcome an American role in suppressing the 621 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: car tells. Now, most of that research has been done 622 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: in the context of presuming a US Mexico partnership. So 623 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: if the Mexican state said we're going to bring in 624 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 1: Americans to help us do this, then I think that's 625 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: relatively popular. Even now, I think that's relatively popular. Obviously, 626 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: the United States doing it unilaterally is a different matter. 627 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 1: But here's an X factor. An X factor is that 628 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: there are multiple levels of authority in Mexico. Mexican federalism 629 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: is not like ours. It's much more constricted. But that 630 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that there are individual state governors, 631 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: their individual alcaldays. There are party bosses and officeholders elsewhere 632 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: in the country. And we know, for example, that Governor 633 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: Abbott in Texas has conducted liaisons with the Mexican state 634 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: governors that border Texas Tamalipa's commobileon Koila, Chihuama. We also 635 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 1: know that there is willingness on the part of some 636 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: of those officeholders to lease with us. So could I 637 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: conceive of the governor of Mobile On, to pick an example, 638 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: cooperating at a state level with American law enforcement in 639 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: his state, Actually, I could, is historical precedent for it, 640 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: and whether or not the Mexican Center allows it, I 641 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: think it's a separate question, But there's a lot of 642 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: shades of gray on this question. Seems to me that 643 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,720 Speaker 1: what's becoming increasingly clear is good. After China and Russia, 644 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: Mexico has now emerged as our biggest national security concern. 645 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: I think that's one hundred percent correct, and that is 646 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: our fault. That is our fault as a nation, it's 647 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: our fault as a policy making class. We have coasted 648 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: for almost a century now without a real Western Hemisphere strategy, 649 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: and that has become especially acute. That absence has become 650 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,000 Speaker 1: especially noticeable in the past twenty five years. And now 651 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: the bill is coming due, we're going to have to 652 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: rediscover a lot of things that previous generations of Americans knew. 653 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: That it's important to have access to the sea lanes 654 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,479 Speaker 1: in the Caribbean, that it's important to control our southern 655 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: land border, that it's important to have free passes to 656 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 1: the Panama Canal, that it's important to have friendly regimes 657 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: to our south. And my only hope is that we 658 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: don't rediscover it much too high price. I want to 659 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: thank you for joining me. I think that you're a 660 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,720 Speaker 1: remarkable student of this and a courageous one. Your writing 661 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 1: in general is so amazingly insightful. I think that it's 662 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: very important for us to cheerfully stand up to the 663 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: President of Mexico. I like your idea that maybe Republicans 664 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: should invite him to come and campaign for their opponents, 665 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 1: so they could choose between the cartel candidate and the 666 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: Republican candidate. And I think that's the kind of choice 667 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 1: we probably would win almost everywhere. Yeah, how would you 668 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: report it as an end kind though? That's my only question, 669 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: that's right, So anyway, I want to thank you for 670 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: joining me a Newtsworld, Thank you, speaker, Thank you to 671 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: my guests, Joshua Travigno. You can learn more about declaring 672 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: the Mexican drug cartels as terrorist organizations on our show 673 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. News World is produced by 674 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 1: Gain which three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is 675 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 1: Garnsey Sloan, our producer Rebecca Howell, and our researcher is 676 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show was created by 677 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at Gingwich three sixty. 678 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to 679 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Apple Podcast and both rate us with five stars and 680 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,839 Speaker 1: give us a review so others can learn what it's 681 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: all about. Right now, listeners of newts World consign up 682 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: for my three free weekly columns at gingwiche sixty dot 683 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.