1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we've got 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: a couple of days off coming up, so we are 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: running a vault episode today. This episode originally aired on 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: September and Rob this was an interview that you did. Yes, 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: this is an interview with the Bill shut author of 7 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: Pump A Natural History of the Heart, about the evolution 8 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: of the heart and the history of humanity's attempt attempts 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: to understand the heart. So it's a really fun chat. 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: And at the end of the episode we actually discussed 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: monsters a little bit. We talked about the Thing from 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: Another World. Oh, I can see because of the day 13 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: this would have been right and the edge of October 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: last year, wasn't it, Yeah, but it it was. It was. 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: It was weird because it was just after we had 16 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: watched The Thing from Another World for Weirdout Cinema. But 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: I just organically asked him. I was like, hey, you know, 18 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: you you obviously about you know, vampires and so forth, 19 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: and you're very interested in sort of monstrous aspects of 20 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: anatomy and in the biological world. Do you have a 21 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: favorite monster movie? And he said, Oh, without a doubt, 22 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: it's the thing from another world. So we chatted about 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: about it a little bit and it was pretty fun 24 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: all right. Anyway, we hope you enjoyed the episode Welcome 25 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My Heart Radio. 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 27 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and my co host Joe McCormick 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 1: is away from the virtual workspace today, so it's just me, 29 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: but I'm going to be joined by vertebrate zoologist and 30 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: author Bill shut So. Bill is the author of two 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: previous nonfiction books, There's Dark Banquet Blood and The Curious 32 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: Lives of Blood Feeding Creatures. I know for a fact 33 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: that I've I've mentioned that book on the show before. 34 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: He also wrote Cannibalism, A Perfectly Natural History. His latest 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: book is Pump, A Natural History of the Heart, which 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: is out right now and hard back, as an e 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 1: book and also as an audio book. Now, we're mostly 38 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 1: going to be talking about the weird and wonderful evolution 39 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: of the heart, as well as humanity's attempt to understand 40 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: it through history. But as always I have to stress 41 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: that the book itself, pump Uh in this case goes 42 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: into far greater detail and includes so many more wonderful examples. UH. 43 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: Case in point, we don't get into the horseshoe crab 44 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: at all or blood transfusions, but there are great chapters 45 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: in the book on these topics. Is a great read 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: and I highly recommend it. So let's go ahead and 47 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 1: jump into the interview. And hey, towards the end, we're 48 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: actually going to chat a little bit about horror movies. 49 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna spoil which one, but it just happens 50 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: to be a film that I watched for the first 51 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: time in recent weeks, so this was this is quite enjoyable. 52 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, Bill, would you mind introducing yourself 53 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: to our audience. Hi, Yeah, I'm nice to be here. 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: My name is Bill shut and I am a vertebrate 55 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: zoologist and recently took an early retirement from Long Island University, 56 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: where I taught for over twenty years. I taught anatomy 57 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: and physiology to courses and evolution and dinosaurs, and my 58 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: research interests for the past thirty years or so have 59 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: centered around bats and UH, and within the four plus 60 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: species of bats, I specialized on the three vampire bats 61 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: and m so that sort of led to my first 62 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: book after writing a bunch of scientific papers, and that 63 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: was Dark Banquet, Blood and the Curious Lives of Blood 64 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: Feeding Creatures. And I followed that up with a book 65 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: on cannibalism called Cannibalism of Perfectly Natural History. And so 66 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: here I am now having written a book on the heart, 67 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: and that is Pump, A Natural History of the Heart. 68 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: When did you know this is going to be your 69 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: next book? Did you just seem like the next logical 70 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: step or was there something in particular? Yeah, it really 71 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: didn't seem like the first the next logical step because 72 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: of the top that I had covered initially. We're more 73 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: macabre and and um, you know, you go from vampiresm 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: to cannibalism into the heart and that's sort of there's 75 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: sort of a jump there. And and really what I 76 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: was lucky enough with the first two books to sort 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: of find a niche between the sensationalized sort of garbage 78 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: e stuff on the on one side and on the 79 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: other side is sort of academic material that nobody would 80 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: read unless you were studying those topics. And so I 81 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: so so I I sort of fit myself into the 82 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: into the middle of that, and I've always been interested 83 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: in taking complex or misunderstood concepts and demystifying them, putting 84 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: a zoological slant on them, making it humorous, entertaining, and 85 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: not using a whole lot of jargon, and and then 86 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 1: going off on sort of side trips where I got 87 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: to discuss what I thought and what I believe are 88 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: important topics, whether it's history or or or or or biology. 89 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: So when I was starting to think about what I 90 00:04:55,520 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: wanted to write from from my third nonfiction book, um 91 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: my editors at Algonquin and my agent all suggested that 92 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: I possibly look for something a bit more mainstream, and 93 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: they gave me a short list, and and one of 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: the things that I've did some preliminary research on was 95 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: the Heart. And I gotta say, initially, I thought this 96 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 1: has got to have been done before, because there are 97 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 1: hundreds of books. This topic is, you know, so widespread 98 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: and popular, and I was really surprised to find that 99 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: that that there was this space for the type of 100 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: book that I wanted to write, where you move through 101 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: the animal kingdom, you tell these interesting stories based on animals, 102 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: and then you move into humans, go into myths and 103 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: the history of of a particular topic. UM, and then 104 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: UM sort of grab interesting stories about medicine past, present, 105 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 1: and future. And so I was really surprised, to tell 106 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: you the truth, that there was so much there and 107 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: a lot of it was really strange enough to satisfy 108 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: that part of me. And I've always been into um 109 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 1: horror movies and and books, and so I always had 110 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: this kind of like weird bent as far as that 111 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 1: stuff went. So UM. Once I figured out that that 112 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: that there was enough interesting material they had to satisfy 113 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: myself and and I think my readers that then it 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: was a done deal that I was going to work 115 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: on the heart. So the heart, especially from the human perspective, 116 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: takes on all of this additional symbolic weight, and you 117 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: do you discuss this in the book. But but stripping 118 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: away all of that, what what is a heart and 119 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: why did it become necessary from an evolutionary perspective? Good question. 120 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: Let me lead off by saying that there are all 121 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: sorts of different things that you might call a heart, 122 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: where some people might not consider it to be a 123 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: heart because it doesn't have a specific lining that sort 124 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: of thing. Um. But a hard is really a pump, 125 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: a muscular pump. So we're talking about uh involuntary muscle, 126 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: so it's not under your conscious control. And when it contracts, 127 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: it sends a fluid either blood or if you're an insect, 128 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: hem a lymph around the body and there and what 129 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: it's doing, and there's there's variation here as well, is 130 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,239 Speaker 1: it's carrying oxygen um to the body, and it's carrying 131 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: carbon dioxide to a place where you can be eliminated. 132 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: By the same token, it's carrying nutrients that are either 133 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: absorbed through the digestive track wool to the body and 134 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,119 Speaker 1: getting rid of waste products that are produced by the body. 135 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: So it's a way to move that fluid around and 136 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: to move around those substances. Now that is not a problem. 137 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: If you're really really tiny, you don't need to have 138 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: a special circulatory system because those those materials that I 139 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: just mentioned that they just diffuse in and out of 140 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: your cell. If you're a single celled organism, or if 141 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: you're really flat like a tape worm, then then that 142 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: material just moves from a high concentration to a low concentration. 143 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: So just for as an example, um, if if a 144 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: single celled organism is surrounded by water, and that water 145 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 1: has got more oxygen in it then is inside that cell. 146 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: Then the oxygen is going to go from high concentration 147 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: outside the cell right through the cell membrane into the 148 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 1: cell itself. And and that's how that material moves. It 149 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: just goes high concentrations are low. That works great if 150 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: you're tiny or or or flat, and it doesn't work 151 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: at all if you have any kind of size, because 152 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: it's very difficult and and and diffusion doesn't work efficiently. 153 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: If you're talking about an organism with made of millions 154 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: of cells and thousands of cell layers thick, the fusion 155 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 1: just doesn't work, or it works, but it works really slowly. 156 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: So millions and millions of years ago, probably half a 157 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: billion years ago, in order four creatures to get larger, 158 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: they had to evolve systems that allowed those materials to 159 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: move in and out and within the body. That had 160 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: to take place, and so what evolved with these systems 161 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: of tubes and pumps to to help distribute that liquid, 162 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: which became the carrier for oxygen and nutrients and waste 163 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: and carbon dioxide. Um So, so it was in a 164 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: sense organisms couldn't evolve to be as complex as they 165 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: are now, um, if they didn't have this transportation system 166 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: evolving inside them. I have to say I really loved 167 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 1: the evolutionary journey you take us on in the book. UM. 168 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: I think back to your your your book on vampires 169 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: and blood drinking and the evolution of bats, and in 170 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: a way, it's like, we kind of think, we already 171 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: feel like the destination there is weird enough, so we 172 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 1: expect the journey to be weird. Um And with the heart, 173 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:41,839 Speaker 1: it's easy to take it for granted. But it's such 174 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: a weird and wonderful evolutionary journey you describe. Thank you 175 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: very much. Now, I love how you explain that we 176 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: have to get away from the human centric view that 177 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: the human heart is is like the pinnacle of design 178 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: or anything of that nature, you know, the the ultimate 179 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: In um An evolution, you describe a number of of 180 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: wonderful um and if I guess from the human perspective, 181 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: strange hearts in the book. If you were to play favorites, 182 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: which non human heart in the book impressed you the most, UM, 183 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: probably the blue whale heart, for for reasons that that 184 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: might not be readily apparent. And and so in the 185 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: prologue in the first chapter, I detailed the um the 186 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: adventure that my friends up at the Royal Ontario Museum 187 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: in Toronto took when when unfortunately, nine blue whales died 188 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: on the ice up in Canada, and usually these whales 189 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: sink and uh and three of them didn't. They washed 190 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: the shore on in these remote spots, and and and 191 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: these guys went in there and and and recovered one 192 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: of the hearts. And the reason they did this is 193 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: because you know, they were mammalogists, and they kept hearing 194 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: this question from folks about what's the largest heart in 195 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: the world. Well, blue whale heart, how big is it? 196 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: They really didn't know. Well, it's probably as big as 197 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: an su they but so so when they got the 198 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: chance to go get one, they did it. And it 199 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: took five years, which I and heavy construction equipment to 200 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: get to move these things around. There were four of 201 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: them inside the whale, pushing the heart out through the ribs. 202 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: And when the thing was when when they finally got 203 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: it on the ground, it when I looked at the 204 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: pictures of it, reminds me of like a four hundred 205 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: pounds soup dumpling. It did not look like a heart 206 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 1: that you might get it, uh, you know what a 207 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: butcher's for example. UM. And so there was so many 208 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: strange things about the heart, and one of them was 209 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: was this shape that it took because it we we 210 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: think that it's able to collapse on the high pressure 211 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: when they die, so we would They don't know, but 212 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: this is what they hypothesized. The other thing is that 213 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: it was a lot smaller than they thought it was 214 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: gonna be. Now, this is the largest heart in the world, 215 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: Yes it is, but maybe it's the size of a 216 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: golf cart rather than an suv. And and that question 217 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: became really interesting to them and to myself. And and 218 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: what it boils down to is if you were to 219 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: look at the heart of a humming bird, for example, 220 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: and this is an anim mold that can can can 221 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: beat its wings eight hundred times a minute. To do that, 222 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: it takes muscle and you know, it takes nutrients, It 223 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: takes oxygen, produces carbon dioxides. So there's gotta be this 224 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: massive amount of blood flowing into those flight muscles in 225 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: order to do that. Um. One thing you can do 226 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: is have your heart beat as really fast, and hummingbird 227 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: heart can beat twelve hundred beats per minute, and that 228 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: is probably about the physical limit that a heart can beat. 229 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: So we're talking about phil empty relax and then this 230 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: whole thing taking place again twelve hundred times a minute 231 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. So so as a as a mechanical device, 232 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: it's probably about topped doubt right there. I don't know 233 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: if you can go any and beat any quicker than that. 234 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: The only other way to get more blood to these muscles, 235 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: these wing muscles is to have a larger heart. So 236 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: because of that, um, humming berries have a heart that's 237 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: four or five times larger relative to their body size 238 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: than a blue whale heart, whose heart maybe beats ten 239 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: fifteen times a minute, and it doesn't have that high 240 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: metabolic demand that the little guys like hummingbirds and shrews 241 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: might have. That that to me was you know, that 242 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: was probably the most interesting. But you know, there was 243 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: this long list that I had to sort of picture 244 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: before I figured out how to answer that one. But 245 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: but blue whale hearts and they are on display as 246 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: far as gone through this plastination process. If you've ever 247 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: seen the body's exhibit, it's like these guys with their 248 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: cadavers who are posed and strange position drug dribbling the 249 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: basketball with no skin, which is trying to avoid that. Um. 250 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: So so this, this this plastinated blue whale heart is 251 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: now back on display at the wrong and that got a. 252 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,839 Speaker 1: They have an interesting exhibit on the whales and they 253 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: so they pulled this thing back out of storage and 254 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: it's just fantastic, awesome. I I'd love to see that someday. 255 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: And there's of course an illustration in the Book of 256 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 1: Youth setting beside it like that than now on a 257 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: similar no, you know, thinking back to you know, getting 258 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: away from the human centric view of the heart, you 259 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: stress that we also have to realize that the organ 260 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: systems in the body don't function like separate chapters in 261 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: a textbook. And uh that I found this really eye opening. 262 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: Um you know, because I think to my own self 263 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, well, that's exactly how I think about it. 264 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: I think of those clear overlays and anatomy books, and 265 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, this system, this system, um, and I 266 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: fall into that trap of thinking about my own body 267 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: that way. Can you can you get into this a 268 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: little bit? Because I found this a rather insightful part 269 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: of the book. Sure as I might have mentioned. I 270 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: taught anatomy and physiology for for about two decades and 271 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: and and one of the things that I stressed in 272 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: my students this is an extremely complex uh of course 273 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: too semester course that I taught with a lot of 274 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: difficult concepts. And I think that that that the people 275 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: fall into this trap, especially students, of thinking that Okay, 276 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: I'm taking an exam, I'm studying circulatory system, and now 277 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna take an exam and then I can forget 278 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: that stuff before I get out to my car after 279 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,480 Speaker 1: the exam is over. And and that's just not the 280 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: case with when you talk about anatomy. So, for example, 281 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: in my mind, there's no way to separate the circulatory 282 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: system from the respiratory system, because if you're going to 283 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: begin you know, we talked about the fact that one 284 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: of the things that the hearts and circulatory systems too, 285 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: is this circulate blood that carries oxygen. Well, how do 286 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: you get that oxygen. That's the role of the respiratory system. 287 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: And then at a microscopic level, the circulatory system and 288 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: the respiratory system come into contact and there's this transfer 289 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: of either carbon dioxide from the circulatory system to the 290 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: respiratory system or oxygen from the respiratory system to the 291 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: circulatory system, and then we breathe out and the whole 292 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: thing starts again. So so I always stress the fact 293 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: that you can't that you really can't understand one without 294 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: putting it into into the cons texts of the other. 295 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: And then you go into things like, well, how do 296 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: how do these muscles contract? Well, that's tied into the 297 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 1: nervous system as well. My students would laugh at me 298 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 1: because this is something that I've just stressed over and 299 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: over again, that they have to think of this as 300 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: something other than a chapters in a book. I love that, 301 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: Like I say, I feel like, even though I don't have, 302 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, this kind of anatomy background, I still flash 303 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: back to those anatomy books from like high school and whatnot, 304 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: and and think of myself as decided that way. Now 305 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: in the book, you also get into the history of 306 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: humanity's understanding of the heart, and h I you stressed 307 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: this in the book, and I realize our our understanding 308 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: of this is imperfect. But can you talk about what 309 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians seem to understand about the actual functionality 310 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: of the heart and heart related pathologies. Yeah, well, well 311 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: the ancient Egyptians, and so we're talking say from from 312 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: what I have restort something like fift undred and fifty 313 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: BC e so that would be the Egyptian Book of 314 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: the Heart, which is written on papyrus and hieroglyphics, and 315 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: and it appears to some translators that the Egyptians knew 316 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: quite a bit about heart attacks and aneurysms. And you've 317 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: got to be careful there because these translations from papyrus 318 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: um to English or to whatever language you might be using, 319 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,439 Speaker 1: you've got to be careful because that it's it's not precise. 320 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,679 Speaker 1: They had a different way of thinking back then and there, 321 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 1: and and our translations of ancient works you always have 322 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: to sort of be careful about what you're about, what 323 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: about what you're stating as a as a fact, what 324 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: we do we we are more sure that the Egyptian 325 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: physicians believe that at the heart was was the center 326 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: of of things like emotion or what we would call 327 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: the soul. And then on a on a physiological level, 328 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: and this is this got picked up by the Greeks, 329 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: that that that there were really two circulatory systems that venus, 330 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: blood was completely different than arterial blood, which was actually 331 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: air and so um. So it was initially thought by 332 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: these guys that and and then passed onto the to 333 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: the to the Greeks, and then and then the Romans 334 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: who disproved the air part um that that the venus 335 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: blood derived from the liver uh and and some of 336 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: it seeped across into the into the left side uh 337 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: and that mixed with air, and there was this magical 338 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: material called numa in the air and and and so 339 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: they got a lot wrong. Um. Not that's not to 340 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: sort of mock them, because they were working with you know, 341 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: zero instrumentation and things that we take for granted nowadays. Um. 342 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: But unfortunately that got picked up. The that that the 343 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: idea of cardiocentrism and and and also their their ideas 344 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 1: about um about the circulatory system were picked up by 345 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: the by the Greeks because Egyptian medicine, that that type 346 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: of information was held in high esteem by by the Greeks. 347 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: Up from their Hypocrates and Aristotle wrote about about the 348 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: heart and the circulatory system, they stayed with this sort 349 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: of cardiocentric view that that that that that the heart 350 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: was the center of things like that like the mind 351 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: and intellect, and they really thought of it the way 352 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: we now think of the nervous system. Um. So at 353 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: the same time, now artists are jumping into play and 354 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 1: their writing and uh, it's poetry and and and there 355 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: are there's all sorts of plays and and and this 356 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: idea that the heart is the seat of emotion became 357 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: entrenched with artists and it's still there um and and 358 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: then passed on to the Romans. And that when things 359 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: take a downturn because of because of somebody who must 360 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: have been brilliant at the time, Galen. But uh, but 361 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: that was that was problematic as as we might talk 362 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: about event. Yeah, my next question concerns that because because Galen, 363 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: of course is always this important figure that that we 364 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: have to bring up and we discuss uh in anatomical 365 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: history and the advancement of anatomical knowledge. But as you 366 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: discussed in the in the book, in many ways that 367 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 1: you put Western medicine back um d years tell us 368 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: about this. Yeah. So, so Galen was a Roman surgeon 369 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: and uh, and he got to travel to um to 370 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: to to Egypt and picked up methodology UM and then 371 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: um worked in the gladiatorial school as a physician and 372 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: and began to study anatomy. But there was a it 373 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: was it was outlawed to to actually work on human cadaver. 374 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: So a lot of what he interpreted about the human 375 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: body came through dissections of things like apes or dogs 376 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: or pigs, and and he wrote a lot and and 377 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: and some of the material, the three million words that 378 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: were eventually recovered, may have been written by his followers 379 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: years later, maybe even after Galen died. But the thing 380 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 1: is that he um, he got a lot wrong. So 381 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: this was all taking place in the second century c 382 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: e and um after Rome fell hundreds of years later. 383 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: Galen's work was not was not initially translated into Latin, 384 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: which was the language of sciences back back then, and 385 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:38,880 Speaker 1: so it sat around untranslated and and was not translated 386 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: until the early Middle Ages, and it was translated by Christians. 387 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: They were Syrians, and so when they translated Galen's work, 388 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: they did it into Arabic, and they put their Christian 389 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: slant on that translation. Now, that work that had been 390 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: translated into Arabic was eventually translated into Latin, and it 391 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: reflected that Christian slant that the Syrian translators had put 392 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:10,400 Speaker 1: on it. And and the problem was is that that 393 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: looked great to the leaders of the church and and 394 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: that you know that we're talking about so the European 395 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: Church and the Western Church, and so they looked at 396 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: it and said, well, this material is divinely inspired. And 397 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,120 Speaker 1: so it became in a sense the rule of law 398 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: that that you had to follow in a lockstep fashion 399 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: Galen's teachings and so I for a fifteen hundred years 400 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: it was pretty much voting to do research and and 401 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: and so. Um. So medicine stagnated and that became really 402 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: and that was really problematic because so much of what 403 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: of what was practiced was wronging this whole idea of 404 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: the four humors, you have to lead people to balance 405 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: these four substances, one of them didn't exist. Um So 406 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: that was a real that was really troublesome and you 407 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: and that continued in some ways right up until the 408 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: early twentieth century. They're still bleeding people. So so that 409 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: was that was a bit problematic. Yeah, And like you 410 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: put it in the book, speaking of the humors, that 411 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, we still talk about people being melancholy, So 412 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: we still have the linguistic legacy of of that system. Yes, 413 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: thank Now skipping ahead more into the present and looking 414 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,679 Speaker 1: ahead to the future, you describe some amazing advances and 415 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: medical science in the book. You get into what you 416 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: get into the history of blood transfusion to where we 417 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: are now. You you just got some hard transplants. How 418 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: far are we away from what we I guess sometimes 419 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: roughly referred to as as lab grown hearts. Um. Yeah, 420 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: this is to me, this was one of the most 421 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: amazing things because I got to go to Harvard and 422 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: and meet with a researcher by the name of Harold, 423 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: and he is he is aware of the fact that 424 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: that there's a real problem with with with people on 425 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: waiting lists for organs and and and and thousands of 426 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: people die every year, not necessarily waiting for hearts, but 427 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: waiting for liver is waiting for kidneys, um, and and 428 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: and so um. What he's trying to do is take 429 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: a very different approach. The reasons why the people wind 430 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 1: up dying on a waiting list is because you have 431 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: to have the right type tissue type, blood type. You've 432 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: got to be able to move this thing maybe across 433 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: the country, um, keep it refrigerated, and and so that's 434 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: often times a crapshoot whether that's going to work out 435 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: for somebody. So what he's done is, and and this 436 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: is preliminary, he's taken to daver hearts and put them 437 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: through in a sense of de turgent rents. And that 438 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: de turgent doesn't wash away the dirt. It washes away 439 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: the cells in the heart that your body would reject 440 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: were you to take up that hard and transplanted. So 441 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: we're talking about the muscle fibers and and other associated cells. 442 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: And so what's left is this ghost white framework of 443 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: the heart. So now you've got something that that that 444 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: looks like a heart but really has no other cells 445 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: besides the connective tissue cells, which your body is not 446 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: going to reject. Okay, So now what he's done is, 447 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: and this science does exist, he will take a sample 448 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: a biopsy or a sample of skin cells from the 449 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 1: person who's going to receive the heart, the recipient and 450 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: and and so so we're not talking about something deep 451 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: in the body. This is this just comes right from 452 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: your skin. These these cells are called fiber blasts. The 453 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: science now exists convert those fiber blasts into stem cells 454 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: and stem cells depending on how the body stimulates them 455 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 1: can be converted into any type of cell. Now, so 456 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: what they are able to do now still is to 457 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: take these stem cells and stemmy like them to become 458 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: muscle cells. And so his idea now is to take 459 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 1: these muscle cells and embed them, seed them, as it were, 460 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: onto this heart, to this framework, and grow a heart 461 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: that is a match for this recipient. And and and 462 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 1: it won't reject the recipient won't reject that that heart. 463 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: The immune system won't won't find it to be a 464 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: foreign cells or foreign tissue because it actually is derived 465 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 1: from the cells of that recipient. So when I asked 466 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: them how long do you think this is going to 467 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: take until it becomes commonplace? He said ten years. That's 468 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: his hope. So I said, well, so, so how does 469 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: that work? He said, Well, somebody comes in with a 470 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: heart problem, they need a heart transplant. You take a 471 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 1: sample from them, you do what I just described about 472 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: how you change them into stem cells. You take a 473 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: cadab or heart, you embed it, and then you do 474 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: this transplant and the person is you know, is up 475 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: and walking in a day or two. Well, it's really 476 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: exciting to match getting to that point. And uh, and 477 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: like I said in the book, you know, there's this 478 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: this wonderful evolutionary journey you take us on. I love 479 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: the journey through our our attempts to scientifically and I 480 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: guess culturally understand what the heart is. Uh. Now I 481 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 1: have to ask, we're getting since we're getting into October here, 482 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: your previous books have dealt with vampires and cannibals. Um, 483 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: now we do doing with the heart and blood. And 484 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: I'm to understand you're working on a book about teeth. 485 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: So I have to ask, what what what is your 486 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 1: favorite movie Monster? Without a doubt it is the original, 487 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 1: So the nineteen fifty one version of the thing. Uh yeah, 488 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: with um James Arness who's in gun Smoke in the 489 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties and I guess early seventies playing this uh 490 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: walking carrot who lands crash lands in the Arctic, and 491 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: how it's recovered by this research group and what happens 492 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: when when it gets thought out by mistake. I just 493 00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 1: think it has The movie has everything to me. Um 494 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: it is, it's got a great mood, it has wonderful 495 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: that as a wonderful soundtrack. It's one of the first 496 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: films ever that has overlapping dialogue. So when you hear 497 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: these these soldiers and these scientists and conversation, they're not 498 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: waiting for someone else to stop talking before they before 499 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,199 Speaker 1: they talk. So this old has to do with the director, 500 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,879 Speaker 1: Howard Hawks and it's just to me is is a 501 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: perfect film and stands up. Um even today, A lot 502 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: of people are in love with the John Carpenter two movie, 503 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 1: which is a gore fest good movie, you know. Um, 504 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: but um but I don't think that it that it Uh, 505 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's it's it's quite as as 506 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: a much of a classic as as as the original. 507 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: I have to agree with you about the the the 508 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: original holding up so well. I happen to just watched 509 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 1: it for the first time a week or two ago, 510 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: and um, yeah, the I totally agree on the dialogue. 511 00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: It's it's it's snappy and and real and so many 512 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: of the secret I feel like there there were those 513 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: promo images of James R. Ness as the monster, and 514 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: especially for people who came up uh you know, post Carpenter, 515 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: we kind of looked at that and we're like, I 516 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: don't I don't want to maybe don't want to see 517 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: a movie with this old fashioned looking monster, but the 518 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: way it shot in the film is so impressive, and 519 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: you have that that really frightening sequence with the fire. 520 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: I think it totally holds up. Or when that door 521 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: opens and it's standing on the other side of the 522 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: door and it's just like slams the door frame. Uh yeah, 523 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: the well, I think it's very it's really funny. Um 524 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: and and it affected me so much that when I 525 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: started to write fiction, and I've written three novels, I've 526 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: based the characters in those novels on the characters in 527 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: The Thing and especially the original, but but certainly some 528 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: of the characters in the Uh. You know, when I 529 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: was looking for for a name of a character, i'd 530 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: i'd go looking in in those movies, especially McCready. Who's 531 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: Who's the hero in? In these three nine zero technical 532 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: no thrillers that that I wrote with my co author Finch, 533 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: I have to ask how old were you when you 534 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: first saw The Thing? From an edit world? Young? Um? 535 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 1: My parents, you know, back back when I was a 536 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 1: little kid, we went to the drive in every week. 537 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: Now that that movie is older than I am, it's 538 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: it's it's actually seventy years old this year and so 539 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: I probably was five six years old, and uh, you 540 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: know that type of of of film. And I've always 541 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: been a huge film buff. And when I'm writing my 542 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: my novels, I'm thinking about these big cinematic scenes and 543 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 1: and and I think that when when I write nonfiction, 544 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: I'm able to go back. So I opened up the 545 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, cannibalism with with the story of a vent 546 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: gain who was who was who was really the cannibal murderer. 547 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: That that the that the that the Bates character or 548 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: in Psycho was based on. You know, Alfred Hitchcock just 549 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: took this real event and and got rid of the 550 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: cannibalism aspect, uh and and kept the mother obsession aspect 551 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: of it. And so that to me is that's another 552 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 1: perfect film that there are. There's about five of them, 553 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: Psycho being one, and and and the Original Thing being another. 554 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,280 Speaker 1: In the Original the Thing, it also is more of 555 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: a blood drinker. It is more of a vampire. Do 556 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: you think that had any any impact on your eventual 557 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: study of vampire bats? Uh? You know, I wish I 558 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: could say, because that sounds so cool, that connects, But 559 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, I don't. But I've been into into vampire 560 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,800 Speaker 1: movies as well. You know, I've been into the original 561 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: Dracula and and then the hammer versions that came out 562 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: in the in the sixties and seventies. So so I 563 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: guess I'd always been intrigued by by blood feeding. But 564 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: when when I started the study bats, that was my 565 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: first semester as a PhD student at cornell Um, I've 566 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,120 Speaker 1: always been into strange animals and and and I've always 567 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: kept a lot of animals as pets. When I was 568 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: a kid, I had a monkey. That's how different things 569 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: were back then. Every snake, every type of lizard, whatever, 570 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: whatever you could could find in a pet shop or 571 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: collect under a rock or drag out of a log um. 572 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: So so I'd always been into sort of offbeat type creatures. 573 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: And and so when I started to work on bats, 574 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: it probably took me abat five minutes to decide that 575 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: within these fourteen hundred species that I wanted to work on, 576 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: the three vampires. And I just lucked out because in 577 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: the early nineties of what it was known and the 578 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: literature about vampire bats was known about the common vampire bat, 579 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,959 Speaker 1: and the other two were open books. So that allowed 580 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: me to go in and do research on these because 581 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: and I was really lucky because a lot of not 582 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: wen't say a lot a number of really important, um 583 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: influential back biologists took me aside and said, you know, 584 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: bill a vampire, about as a vampire, about as a vampire, 585 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: but you're not gonna see differences. And I was fresh 586 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: out of classes, thinking it doesn't that doesn't make sense, 587 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: because if you have two animals that do the same 588 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: thing and they live in the same place, then then 589 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: then either one of them is going to adapt a 590 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: different behavior, or it's going to migrate, or it's going 591 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: to go extinct. And so when so this this this 592 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: little biologist Arthur Greenholfen Museum and Natural History, which I've 593 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: been lucky enough to be there since the early nineteen 594 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: nineties as well, took me aside and said, Candy got something, 595 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 1: so shut up down, don't do it, um. And from 596 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: there I was able to look at all these differences 597 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: that were clearly apparent once we started looking at them, 598 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: and just to sort of put a shout out there. 599 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: It's not that people didn't know about it, because when 600 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: I went down to places like Trinidad, they knew from 601 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 1: the start that there were these huge differences. One of 602 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: them fed on birds, the other one is on the 603 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 1: ground and feeding on cows and pigs. Um. And they 604 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: knew about it, they just weren't publishing. And so I've 605 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: made it a point to to bring these guys on 606 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: as co authors and bring them up and make sure 607 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: that they came to conferences and and got to do that. 608 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 1: I thought they deserved. Bringing back to pump for a second, 609 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: I also love the bit where you get into the 610 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: the bats that hibernate uh in the in the snow. Yeah. Um, 611 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: not a whole lot is known about them, except that 612 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: there's a species of bat that lives in Japan that 613 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: that that evidently hibernates in in in snow. And and 614 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: so the researchers originally thought, well, this, this, and these 615 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 1: guys in polar bears are the only the only mammals 616 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: that do that, uh and so what since then, since 617 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: this work was started, they figured out that polar bears 618 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: might not really be card carrying hibernators because they wake 619 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 1: up off and during in the in the winter. Um. 620 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: And so it's not known if these bats are If 621 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,439 Speaker 1: these bats wake up in the middle of the winter 622 00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,799 Speaker 1: or enough and they make this little with their body. 623 00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: Hea they carve this little cone and the snow and 624 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: then the snow covers them and you don't find them 625 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: until until the spring, when it's either either somebody that 626 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: digs them up by mistake or or or it thaws 627 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: out and you know that they're cold. They're laying there 628 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: for a while, like can start to crank some some 629 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: blood moving through them, and then they fly off. But yeah, 630 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: that was just one of I don't know, dozens of 631 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: really interesting stories that I've learned about because the learning 632 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 1: curve was steep, which made it that much more interesting. 633 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: You know. I don't go into these things as sort 634 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: of experts on on the heart, for example, or cannibalism thankfully. 635 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: Of course, the bats also remind me of the thing 636 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,120 Speaker 1: from another world, you know, the organism is suspended in 637 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: the ice, which I guess drives home no matter how weird. 638 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: An idea is that we dream up about an alien creature, 639 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: like there's something in the natural world that is already 640 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: as weird or weirder, right, oh, yeah, no doubt, and 641 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: and that you know, I try to bring that out 642 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: in the book as well. And and then the fun 643 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: thing is to try to tie that into modern medicine. 644 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: So you have uh, you know, you know, you have 645 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: an aquarium fish, the zebra fish, which everybody's seen this 646 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: little stripes, the horizontal stripes. It turns out that if 647 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: you snipal its heart, the heart not only grows back, 648 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: but it's completely functioned. Now, if you were to do that, 649 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, we don't really do that, and we're gladiatorial combat. 650 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people are upset about that. 651 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 1: But to be serious, if if you have a part 652 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: of your heart is damaged because the blood flow has 653 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: been cut off to it, and and it and in 654 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 1: a sense that tissue dies when it grows back. It's 655 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 1: scarre tissue. It's not contractile, good function named muscle tissue. 656 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: That's not the case with the zebrafish. So how do 657 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: we take that? What does the zebrafish have going for 658 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,959 Speaker 1: it that enables it to completely repair? It's hard after 659 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: being traumatically uh injured, And and how do you try 660 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: in slate that into um into curing a sick heart 661 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 1: that is undergoing a heart attack or multiple heart attacks. 662 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: And there was a list of those that that I 663 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: ran into. So that was kind of fun as well well. Bill, 664 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking time out of your day to chat 665 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: with us about the book. Well, it was really good 666 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: to be here, especially to talk about the thing that's 667 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: a that's a new one for me, that one I 668 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: haven't spoken to, have been interviewed about. So it was 669 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: a real pleasure to meet you and talk with your owner. 670 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: All Right, thanks again to Bill Shut for chatting with me. 671 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: You can check him out online at Bill Shut dot com. 672 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: That's b I L L S C h U T 673 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: T dot com. Uh. That website contains links to his 674 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,680 Speaker 1: social media accounts as well. The website features information about 675 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: his three non fiction books, That's Dark Banquet, Cannibalism, and 676 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: Now Pump, as well as his three fiction books co 677 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: written with J. R. Finch That's Hell's Gate, The him 678 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: Alan Codex, and The Darwin Strain. I have not read 679 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 1: these but yet, but now I'm super interested to check 680 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: them out after after chatting with Bill. In the meantime, 681 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: as you would like to check out other episodes of 682 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind where you can find them 683 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed. On 684 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays, we give you our core science episodes. 685 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: On Monday's we do Listener mail. On Wednesday's we do 686 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: an artifact short form episode. On Friday's we do a 687 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: little weird how cinema You know what that is. That's 688 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: our chance to kick back and discuss a weird film. 689 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: And yes, as luck would have it, we very recently 690 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: discussed the Thing from Another World on the show. So hey, 691 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,479 Speaker 1: especially after this chat with Bill, go back and listen 692 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: to that episode if you haven't. Again, wonderful film. Oh 693 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: and then on the on the weekends we do a 694 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: little rerun that's a vault episode. Thanks as always to 695 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson for producing the show and recording us 696 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: here and if you would like to email us, as always, 697 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 1: you can do so at con Thatt add Stuff to 698 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind 699 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for 700 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, this is the i heart Radio app, 701 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your favorite shows