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Speaker 1: This is the most dramatic podcast ever. And iHeartRadio podcast.

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Speaker 1: Chris Harrison, Lauren Zema coming to you from the home

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Speaker 1: office in Austin, Texas.

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Speaker 2: Coming to you with a sixteen and a half year

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Speaker 2: age gap, everybody, that's what.

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Speaker 1: We're getting into today. Let's just rip that age band

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Speaker 1: aid off. Is it different when an older man dates

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Speaker 1: a younger woman as opposed to an older woman dating

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Speaker 1: a younger man. Is it looked at through a different filter?

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Speaker 1: Do we treat it different socially? Do we talk about

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Speaker 1: them differently?

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Speaker 2: So part of the reason this is coming up is because,

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Speaker 2: at the time of recording of this podcast, Kristin Cavaleri

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Speaker 2: is taking getting a little heat online for dating a

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Speaker 2: younger guy. Kristin is thirty seven and she is dating

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Speaker 2: a twenty four year old. And I am here to say,

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Speaker 2: no heat needed. And I think this is a total

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Speaker 2: sexist thing that happens where yes, for some reason, well

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Speaker 2: you know what, I know the reason, But it does

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Speaker 2: seem to be more accepted for men to date a

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Speaker 2: younger woman versus a woman dating a younger man. If

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Speaker 2: you're a woman dating a younger man, you're instantly looked

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Speaker 2: at like you're a cougar or like you're like going

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Speaker 2: through a phase versus I think men. It can be

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Speaker 2: looked at as, oh, that's just a normal, healthy relationship.

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Speaker 3: But what do you think?

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Speaker 2: What is what do you think the stereotype? What's the

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Speaker 2: reaction when a woman dates the younger guys?

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Speaker 1: I was also curious. I was going to ask the

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Speaker 1: heat that she's catching. I'm curious how that breaks down

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Speaker 1: as far as gender goes. Is she catching more heat

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Speaker 1: from other women or is she catching heat for men?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Interesting, No way to know

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Speaker 3: the statistics, but.

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Speaker 1: Because I would guess men probably.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's why I wanted to ask you, what do

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Speaker 2: you think what is the male reaction to this?

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Speaker 1: I bet men would say, don't care who Kristin Cavalet

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Speaker 1: if she's AND's not just her, I just mean a

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Speaker 1: woman dating a younger man. And typically what you also

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Speaker 1: see is the success rate right of this is a

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Speaker 1: very successful woman. She's able to date a younger guy,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know why she would catch heat for that.

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Speaker 1: They are but thirteen years apart. If my math is correct.

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Speaker 3: We're great at math here.

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Speaker 1: But you know that the only thing I would say

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Speaker 1: she's that it is dabbling in the I wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: her to go younger. And it's not the age gap,

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Speaker 1: it's the age. Twenty four is young. But that is

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Speaker 1: presumably I'm just assuming this person's graduated college. Usually you

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Speaker 1: graduate twenty two to twenty three, maybe right at twenty four,

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Speaker 1: so at least they are out of college. Movie.

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Speaker 2: We talk about the life place thing a lot, right,

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Speaker 2: That's what I mean more of Yeah, I mean I

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Speaker 2: think that for us is always a thing we talk

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Speaker 2: about in age gap relationships. And by the way, I

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Speaker 2: say this, what is an age cap?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Like, is it ten years

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Speaker 3: or more?

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Speaker 2: If it's less than ten years, do you have an

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Speaker 2: age gap relationship.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's a definitive scale there.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think we would have worked if, say,

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Speaker 2: we'd both have been single, which we weren't, but if

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Speaker 2: we'd started dating when I was in my early twenties

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Speaker 2: and you were in your forties, because.

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Speaker 1: I would have had no I would have been in

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Speaker 1: my thirties, sorry, late thirties. But the difference too is

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Speaker 1: I would have had kids by then, because I had kids.

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Speaker 1: So I have two young children and I'm dating a

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Speaker 1: much younger woman who's definitely not in that life place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so life place difference. Do you both have kids?

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Speaker 2: Do you both want kids? If you're fresh out of college,

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Speaker 2: I think that can be tough because you might not

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Speaker 2: have been in the working world yet you're still in

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Speaker 2: that school mindset. But the most important factor to me

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Speaker 2: in any relationship when it comes to age is really

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Speaker 2: your maturity. Is how your maturity has developed and how

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Speaker 2: you've allowed your life experiences to affect you.

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Speaker 3: I do think maturity is a choice.

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Speaker 2: And the reason I bring this up is because we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the life place of young people.

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Speaker 3: But we know a lot of people still know a

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Speaker 3: lot of people who are older and are totally immature.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I complete knuckleheads have.

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Speaker 2: Not allowed their life experiences to affect them. Who are

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Speaker 2: We know people older than us who are not good

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Speaker 2: at relationships because they've never learned how to be good

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Speaker 2: at relationships. I think if you're younger, you might have

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Speaker 2: been through like, we don't know when life's going to.

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Speaker 3: Throw at us what it will.

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Speaker 2: People who are younger can have already been through the

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Speaker 2: death of a parent or like a hard upbringing, versus

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Speaker 2: someone who's much older might have never been through either

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Speaker 2: of those things.

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Speaker 1: And I will say also, it'll probably force some conversations

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Speaker 1: that need to be had sooner, Like you and I did,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to make it clear, Hey, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to have more children. That's not in my future. Does

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Speaker 1: that align with where you are in your life? Kristin Cavalary.

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Speaker 1: I don't know where she is in her life as

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Speaker 1: far as kids. But if this guy's twenty four, maybe

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Speaker 1: he wants to be a dad. So again, what you

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Speaker 1: need to probably forces conversations of where do you see

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Speaker 1: yourself in three years, five years, ten years, Do you

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Speaker 1: want to have kids? Are you entrepreneurial? Are you know?

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Speaker 1: Those are just some conversations. When the age gap is bigger.

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Speaker 1: I think those conversations become more important because the chances

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Speaker 1: of you being on a separate page and on a

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Speaker 1: different life path are greater.

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Speaker 3: Well, you just.

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Speaker 2: Hit kind of hit something I wanted to bring up to, which, okay,

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Speaker 2: So maturity is a factor. What you want where you're headed.

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Speaker 2: Life place is a factor. But the other half of

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Speaker 2: life place can be that the person who's older does

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Speaker 2: not want something that serious right now, do you know

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying, like Kristin Cavalery.

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Speaker 1: I was just going to say this too, that's funny

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Speaker 1: that if it's a phase they're going through, but by

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Speaker 1: the way, and it's okay, Like it's totally fine if

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Speaker 1: this is just something you need to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like I well, and I don't want to okay,

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Speaker 2: But there's a difference there. I don't like the phase

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Speaker 2: thing because phase makes it seem like again yeah like,

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Speaker 2: and there's this thing like, oh, this older woman just

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Speaker 2: wants to try dating a younger guy or something. I'm

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Speaker 2: saying life place in that. Kristin Cavalre has talked a

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Speaker 2: lot about how she and I've interviewed her before she

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Speaker 2: got married, had three kids, you know, she got divorced

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Speaker 2: a couple of years ago. She's been really outspoken of saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really looking for something serious right now. So

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Speaker 2: maybe if she's tried to date people her own age,

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Speaker 2: they're all looking for something serious and settling down. So

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Speaker 2: maybe she's just dating someone who is not in a

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Speaker 2: life place of like settle down serious relationship right now,

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Speaker 2: and it's not really trying to date someone younger. It's

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Speaker 2: just where that person's at right Madonna and Cher still

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Speaker 2: doing this. Let me pull this up. This is an

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Speaker 2: article from December twenty twenty three. Madonna she had dated

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Speaker 2: a younger guy before this, but now she's dating a

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Speaker 2: new younger guy. Madonna sixty five. This gentleman Josh Popper.

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Speaker 2: Believe he's thirty one, so that's an over thirty year

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Speaker 2: age gap. And then Cher, who has said online she

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Speaker 2: is very in love with this guy. She's dating, Alexander Edwards.

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Speaker 2: They have a forty year age gap, and they've been

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Speaker 2: together for a couple of years, so Cher said in

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Speaker 2: December twenty twenty two quote on paper, it's kind of ridiculous,

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Speaker 2: but in real life we get along great.

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Speaker 1: He's fabulous great. So, by the way, that's awesome. Good

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Speaker 1: for them, and they've been quiet. I mean, I can't

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Speaker 1: remember the last time I saw Share publicly doing anything odd.

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Speaker 1: Side note, SHARE's house was two doors down from the

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Speaker 1: original Bachelor mansion. Did really Yeah, she has a beautiful,

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Speaker 1: sprawling estate overlooking the piece. Ever see her the Pacific Ocean? No?

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Speaker 1: I mean, because what you see is the entryway to

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Speaker 1: her villa asque like land.

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Speaker 3: You can't sneak into SHARE's house.

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Speaker 1: We tried, no, but it's funny. I was just she

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Speaker 1: built that and like moved in while we were shooting

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Speaker 1: those first couple of seasons at that old place on

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Speaker 1: it's right on the pch right on the one one

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Speaker 1: Highway overlooking the Pacific Ocean.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, she could have grabbed a bachelor.

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Speaker 1: Yes, good, but it's I like what you're saying in that.

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Speaker 1: Look if they are happy with share, I love it.

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Speaker 1: She's like, look, if you look at the statistics, No,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't make any sense. It makes sense to us.

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Speaker 2: Well, you hit on something earlier, like when we're talking

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Speaker 2: about why this is more common to see with men

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Speaker 2: dating younger women than women dating younger men. I do

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Speaker 2: think the success factor is a thing, and unfortunately you're

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Speaker 2: not seeing as men. I would say that I don't

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Speaker 2: have the statistics, but I would guess there's not as

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Speaker 2: many single like free of dealing, you know, like like

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Speaker 2: single super successful women who can date and provide like

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Speaker 2: for a younger person. And I don't like that that Again,

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Speaker 2: I don't have the data. I don't like it if that.

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Speaker 3: Is the truth.

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Speaker 2: But typically I think these are that's not the situation

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Speaker 2: you end up in.

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Speaker 3: And Sharon Madonna, these are big age gaps.

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Speaker 2: I will have questions in my mind about these age gaps.

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Speaker 2: If this were a guy and a woman, I'd be like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, forty years is a lot, but you

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Speaker 2: know they are they're able to do that and have

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Speaker 2: that dynamic. Right now, if you were single, how much

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Speaker 2: older of a woman would you date?

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Speaker 1: Well, when I was single, I dated I think up

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Speaker 1: to five years older than me. Okay was the oldest

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Speaker 1: woman that I dated. I dated everything I really did

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Speaker 1: across the spectrum. I didn't really pay attention to age

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Speaker 1: at all to a certain degree. I mean, obviously, you

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Speaker 1: don't want to go too young because then you just

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Speaker 1: start losing things that you have in common and there's

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Speaker 1: no you know, it's hard to have those commonalities and

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Speaker 1: views on life and et cetera. But I didn't mind old,

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Speaker 1: same age, younger. I didn't. I didn't really care. It

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Speaker 1: was again, I'm like you, it's more about the life place,

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Speaker 1: the emotional maturity, what you wanted and if we had

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Speaker 1: that chemistry together.

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Speaker 2: I am totally just injecting my own life into it.

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Speaker 2: But I think when you get beyond twenty years that

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Speaker 2: that's when it starts to raise questions for me, because

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Speaker 2: then you're really starting to get into going back to

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Speaker 2: life place, like what era of your life you're in, you.

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Speaker 3: Know what I mean? Like you can be.

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Speaker 2: Sixty and dating a forty year old and you're kind

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Speaker 2: of both still active and like well and living, and

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Speaker 2: but if you're like eighty dating a forty year old,

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Speaker 2: it's just a very different life place.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think what you were saying earlier is true.

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Speaker 1: It's like, how do you define age gap? And at

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Speaker 1: what age? I think there's this tremendous spectrum in this

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Speaker 1: gray area, and then there's just that thing that you

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Speaker 1: look at and you know it's not right, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think we can. It's just that doesn't pass the

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Speaker 1: smell to us. You're just like, Okay, that's it. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what what it is, but that's it. Like again,

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Speaker 1: Crystal Hefner and Hugh Hefner when she was twenty.

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Speaker 3: One and year on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and she was on the podcast and I'm like okay, like, yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not okay with that. That's not right. No, that's

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Speaker 1: not right. And and who am I to decide? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, just in my own world, that just doesn't

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Speaker 1: fit because I don't see anybody mutually benefiting from that,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's where.

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Speaker 3: The power dynamic is where, Yeah, the power.

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Speaker 1: Dynamics way off and the mutual Like in a relationship,

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Speaker 1: you should mutually benefit off of each other, you should

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Speaker 1: be a value add to each other's lives. I don't

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Speaker 1: see that for a twenty one year old and an

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Speaker 1: eighty year old, or even a twenty year old and

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Speaker 1: a sixty five year old, I would go, I'd take

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Speaker 1: twenty years off that, which is crazy to take sixty Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you could take twenty years off that and still Okay,

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Speaker 1: what you'd really have to prove? What is this dynamic

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Speaker 1: that's healthy for everybody here?

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Speaker 2: I think it's easier to play with a bigger age

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Speaker 2: gap in the middle of our lives, like if you're thirties, forties.

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Speaker 1: Fifty, or you and I are right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, well, because you're both people have established

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Speaker 2: a career a little bit, know who they are. They're

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Speaker 2: not in the figuring out well maybe they haven't figured

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Speaker 2: themselves out yet, but both people have probably been working

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Speaker 2: hopefully figured out who they are a little bit and

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Speaker 2: are both still like very active working, not you know,

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Speaker 2: in the retired phase or the whatever when you get

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Speaker 2: in those extremes like twenties and sixties and set like.

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Speaker 1: Well back to Christian Cavalary, I mean, y'all aren't far

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Speaker 1: off in age. That means you're dating a twenty four

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Speaker 1: to twenty three year old. Okay, I can't see you.

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Speaker 1: I can't see you. Like, what do you think when

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Speaker 1: I say that to you? No, you're dating someone a

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Speaker 1: year older than my son.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that certainly puts it in perspective.

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Speaker 2: I when what's funny is we were just with the

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Speaker 2: kids at and we took them out like and to

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Speaker 2: dinner and stuff at their school a couple of weeks ago,

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Speaker 2: and I really had a thought for a moment because

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Speaker 2: I was talking to your daughter, our daughter Taylor, about dating,

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Speaker 2: and I was like looking around because we were at

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Speaker 2: this bar and looking at these boys, and I thought

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Speaker 2: to myself, I don't mean this to sound me, but

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Speaker 2: I thought to myself, how did I ever want to

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Speaker 2: date a twenty year old boy?

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Speaker 1: So much has changed in our world, and so much has.

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Speaker 3: Not right, They're all still having the same drama.

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Speaker 1: And these are the same conversations. It's the same bullsh

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Speaker 1: It's the same drama that we all went through thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago, forty years ago, twenty years ago, ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what technology you implement. And I will say,

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Speaker 1: going back to reality television and The Bachelor, that's why

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Speaker 1: the show worked because so much can change relationships, don't

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Speaker 1: Our need for companionship and the mistakes we make achieving

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Speaker 1: that do not change.

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Speaker 3: And the obsessiveness.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's the thing when I talk to you, know,

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Speaker 2: our kids and their friends right now, is that no

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Speaker 2: matter how much new information they have, I mean they

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Speaker 2: all now have We all now have cell phones with

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Speaker 2: access to insane amounts of information on how to be

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Speaker 2: in relationships, on our mental health, on all that, and

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Speaker 2: they are all still making all the same relationship mistakes.

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Speaker 3: That I made, that you made.

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Speaker 2: They are all still falling obsessively in love, obsessing over crushes.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's just that our hormones are they're not adapting right.

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Speaker 1: Your brand is barely formed and your hormones are raging.

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Speaker 1: And you're at this weird life place too because you're

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Speaker 1: on your own and you're trying to play grown up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: well you want to fall in love and you're trying

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Speaker 1: to play grown up, but you're not yet because you're

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Speaker 1: not really fully on your own. You're like, I'm my

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Speaker 1: own woman, are you? Because you have your dad's credit card,

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Speaker 1: you don't pay for your car, you don't pay for

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Speaker 1: your cell phone, so you're independent, but you're not. So

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Speaker 1: it's that wonderful time in life. It's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason we go to college is to expand socially and

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Speaker 1: kind of finish baking if you will.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and again I will say like experiences.

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Speaker 2: Right, A twenty two year old who's been in college

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Speaker 2: having their parents support them is going to be at

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Speaker 2: a different maturity level than a twenty two year old

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Speaker 2: who like didn't go to college and has been working

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Speaker 2: on their own since they're eighteen and supporting themselves and

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Speaker 2: paying their own bills.

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Speaker 3: That's going to be different.

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Speaker 2: Now, I did date someone who was younger than me

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Speaker 2: right before you and I got together, right And.

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Speaker 1: The last person you dated before me, yes was.

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Speaker 2: Young, was younger than me, and actually had lied to

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Speaker 2: me about how much younger than me he was. I

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Speaker 2: thought he was only two or three years younger than me.

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Speaker 2: He was actually like eight, seven or eight years younger

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Speaker 2: than me. And I now listen.

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Speaker 1: He was great, but you said you could kind of tell.

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Speaker 3: As we kept dating.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, he's a little more immature than

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Speaker 2: I realized. Okay, And so then when he revealed that

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Speaker 2: to me, I thought, oh, that makes sense. But so

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Speaker 2: I broke up with him and he.

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Speaker 3: Was We had this conversation.

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Speaker 2: He's like, why, Like, we're really great together, and I

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Speaker 2: said to him, you.

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Speaker 3: Are really great.

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Speaker 2: If our timing, our place had been different, this might

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Speaker 2: be different. But I'm like, dude, like, I'm someone who's

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Speaker 2: been divorced. Yeah, you've never even been engaged. We are

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Speaker 2: in such different life places. We've had different experiences to

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Speaker 2: this point, and our we were not aligned on that,

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Speaker 2: and so like, did we have stuff in common?

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Speaker 3: Sure, but we weren't going to work out.

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Speaker 1: But to your point, the last person I dated before you,

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Speaker 1: she was older than me, and that chemistry and that

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Speaker 1: life place and that vision still wasn't there. So does

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Speaker 1: it have to do with age or is it just

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Speaker 1: like you said, the life place? And what I find

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Speaker 1: interesting with Kristin Cavalary. I don't know Kristin and I

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Speaker 1: don't know this young man she's dating, but she's very successful.

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Speaker 1: I know this about her. I know her life on

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Speaker 1: a public scale, she's very successful, she's been in the limelight.

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Speaker 1: She's dealing with things on a pretty huge macro level

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Speaker 1: in this world. Is this young boy a young man

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Speaker 1: ready for that? You know?

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Speaker 2: Is he?

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Speaker 1: That's a lot? That's a lot to be shot out

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Speaker 1: of a cannon in face? I mean, you know, does

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Speaker 1: Kristin Cavalary want to get away from that? And that's

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Speaker 1: why she's dating this young man? You know? Is he

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Speaker 1: a departure from all that? Because that's a lot for

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Speaker 1: a twenty four year old to step into social media,

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Speaker 1: the limelight every you know, Look, the reason we're doing

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Speaker 1: this topic is because she's catching heat for it. So

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Speaker 1: that's what this young man would be facing. That's a

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Speaker 1: lot for a twenty four year old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like, I think the takeaways are life place, maturity, power,

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Speaker 2: dynamic to be aware of that both parties. I think

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Speaker 2: my like, I'm not saying thirty seven and twenty four

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Speaker 2: is the perfect age gap relationship. I don't think it

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Speaker 2: is generally, but I do think it's unfair for women

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Speaker 2: to get judged for it more than men.

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Speaker 3: For women to be seen.

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Speaker 2: I think what it is is women are like seen

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Speaker 2: as sad for doing it, and men aren't.

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Speaker 1: Men are like, yeah, oh cool, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 1: which is commonplace, right. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the general reaction from people that people think, like,

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with this woman and all that sitting dinner

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Speaker 2: trying to stay young.

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Speaker 1: We were sitting at a dinner last night with friends,

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Speaker 1: and we were with three couples, us being one of

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Speaker 1: the three couples. All of them had the same dynamic

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Speaker 1: older husband, younger wife. No, you know, we know one

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Speaker 1: about it an eyelash. And it's interesting if I said,

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Speaker 1: Kristin Cavalary is forty years old, and you know she's

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Speaker 1: dating a thirty seven year old or a thirty three

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Speaker 1: year old. Sorry to do the math that thirteen year

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Speaker 1: age gap. It's when you slide that gap that makes

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Speaker 1: a difference. Right, If he's thirty and she's forty three.

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Speaker 1: That feels different, doesn't it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it feels a little better.

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Speaker 1: You mean, yeah, so there's a thirteen year age gap

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Speaker 1: between Kristin and this young man. But if you slide

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Speaker 1: that gap, like you said, oh, you know, Kristin Cavalary's

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Speaker 1: you know, forty three and she's dating a thirty year

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Speaker 1: old man.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you it feel it's for some reason we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the feeling. It feels a little more. Okay,

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Speaker 2: if people are in their thirties, forties, fifties.

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Speaker 1: Because you assume they have more life experience, they've probably

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Speaker 1: been professional in whatever profession they're in. They've become a

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Speaker 1: little more mature.

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Speaker 3: But I'm not going to green light share in Madonna's relationships.

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Speaker 2: I think those just like I think gets off that

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Speaker 2: al Pacino is like eighty one dating a thirty year old.

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Speaker 1: I agree.

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Speaker 2: I think I love Share, I love Madonna, and they

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Speaker 2: are divas who have achieved things beyond what I will

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Speaker 2: ever dream of achieving.

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Speaker 3: But I think a forty year age gap is tough.

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Speaker 3: I think that's it. I don't know about that.

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Speaker 1: It's it's funny because it's how we need our Share

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Speaker 1: and our Madonna to be. They are. They are icons

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Speaker 1: in our world, and so I just think, like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to give them a pass. I

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Speaker 1: don't love it. It's not right. Same thing with you know,

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Speaker 1: Paccino and de Niro, or you know, having babies when

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Speaker 1: they're eighty five, with twenty year olds. Some women, I

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Speaker 1: don't I'm not Yeah, I agree, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: sign off on it. Now. Where is that age gap?

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Speaker 1: I don't know that. That's just not it though they

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Speaker 1: don't have the past. Kristin Cavaleri. We're up in the air,

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Speaker 1: but I think we're okay with this, so I'd be

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Speaker 1: interested to see how this goes. We'll follow it, We'll

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Speaker 1: see what she got from it, because I think that's

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Speaker 1: the main thing and whatever you need from it in life.

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Speaker 1: As long as everybody's happy, no one's getting hurt. Hey,

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Speaker 1: do your thing, Elsie, keep doing your thing, and all

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Speaker 1: of you keep doing your thing. And we appreciate you

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Speaker 1: taking a little time out to join us, and we

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Speaker 1: will talk to you again next time because we have

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Speaker 1: a lot more to talk about. Thanks for listening. Follow

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Speaker 1: us on Instagram at the most Dramatic pod Ever and

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Speaker 1: make sure to write us a review and leave us

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Speaker 1: five stars. I'll talk to you next time.