1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,160 Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous historians. We're returning with our regular classic episode, 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: ed Boy. This one threw us for a loop. 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: Take my wife taker. 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, yeah, tell big baby Yeah. 5 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: In seventeenth century England, it was so incredibly difficult for 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: everybody who was not a one percenter to get a divorce. 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: You had to get the government to say yes, you 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: had to get the church. 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 4: The annulment was much in demand. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 2: So as a result, some couples agreed to can persist 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: in unhappy marriages through a bizarre practice known as wife selling, 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 2: not swapping selling. 13 00:00:46,840 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. I've often thought 14 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: that every single romantic relationship is like a country all 15 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: its own, with its own unique rules, its own unique 16 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: social moras and so on, and everybody else is, to 17 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: some degree or another, an outsider. But whenever we talk 18 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: about relationships in general, we run into some strange, complicated 19 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: and ridiculous things. Hi, I'm bet. 20 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 5: Hey Ben, Sorry, I was confused. Where am I today? 21 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 5: It's been one of those I'm really fond of that EXPRESSI. 22 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 5: I think it's a good way of looking at it, 23 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 5: because it's like it's sort of like the whole idea 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 5: of we're all protagonist in our own story. Another expression, 25 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 5: you enjoy thank you? 26 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 3: Yeah I do. 27 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: I do enjoy it, and I enjoy hanging out on 28 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: this show ridiculous history. 29 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 3: That's right. 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: I'm having one of those days too. That's what we're doing. 31 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 4: That's what we're doing. We're here for that reason, right, 32 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 4: we are here for that reason. 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: Oh great, that means that our super producer, Casey Pegram 34 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: is also here. Casey, I'm gonna lean back and wave 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: at you. 36 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 4: He really did it. 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: I got a thumbs up. So the three of us 38 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: are our people who have had our ups and downs 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: in love. Without getting too personal. Now we're not in 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: cells or anything. But you know, the course of true 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: love never did run smooth, as other people want to say. 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: And today's episode is about the end of some romantic relationships. 43 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: It's about the end of marriages, but not in the 44 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: typical way. Not a marriage that ended in divorce, not 45 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: a marriage that ended in death, not even a marriage 46 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: that ended in annulment. We're talking about something very strange today, 47 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: and it takes us all the way back to Mary 48 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: Old England. 49 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 5: That's right, Ben, Between seventeen eighty and around eighteen fifty 50 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 5: there was a pretty fascinating and bizarre practice that had 51 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 5: gained popularity out of necessity really weirdly in England. It 52 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 5: was the practice of selling wives or wife selling. Yeah, 53 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 5: and it's not euphemism for anything, and that's literally what 54 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 5: it was. 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: That's exactly what it sounds like. The BuzzFeed headline would 56 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: be an englishmen sell their wives. But there's more to 57 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: the story, and it's not the same kind of perhaps 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: human trafficking or chattel slavery that you might associate with 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: quote unquote selling a person. So let's journey back to 60 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: the seventeen fifties. Say, and you're an average you're an 61 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: average household, you're not aristocratic. Maybe you're working class or 62 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: lower working class, and you run into irreconcilable differences and 63 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: do you as maybe both of you decide and that 64 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: your marriage should your marriage should end, you should dissolve it. 65 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: Then you start looking into the process of dissolving your 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: marriage and you quickly learn some really depressing, difficult stuff. 67 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's depressing stuff on both sides of the equation. 68 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 5: For women of this time, one of the most depressing 69 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 5: factors was that they had no property rights. They were 70 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 5: basically considered Not only do they have no property rights themselves, 71 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 5: they themselves were basically considered the property of their husband, 72 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 5: and they had no recourse if the husband wanted to 73 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 5: annul the marriage. They themselves could not choose to ann 74 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 5: all the marriage. It was entirely up to the husband 75 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 5: to make this decision. Even worse, and this is something 76 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,160 Speaker 5: that was bad for the husband. It was incredibly expensive 77 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 5: because there was no such thing as a divorce. The 78 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 5: first divorce didn't even come around until eighteen fifty seven. 79 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 5: So the only way to get separated legally was to 80 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 5: get a private Act of Parliament and then have it 81 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 5: be blessed by the Church. And that private act of 82 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,559 Speaker 5: Parliament did not come cheap. 83 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: It did not. 84 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: And let's step back here for a second, because divorces 85 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: could occur, but they were something that was essentially relegated 86 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,679 Speaker 1: to the higher class of people in society at the time. 87 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: Obtaining a private Act of Parliament would cost around three 88 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: thousand pounds, and that cost did not That cost was 89 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 1: essentially a note of exception to Britain's otherwise very very 90 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: strict law about divorce, and it still just got you 91 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: halfway through the game, because if the church didn't want 92 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 1: to give their blessing, then you were sol straight out 93 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: of luck. Since this is a family show, this was expensive. 94 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: This took a long time, and people eventually had to 95 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: find some sort of alternative plan. Also, three thousand pounds 96 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: for that Act of Parliament that is about if we 97 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: run it through the inflation calculator, that's about fifteen thousand 98 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: pounds in our modern age. 99 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 4: And it's sane. 100 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that three thousand pounds is just the bottom, 101 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: the scraping the bottom, right, it could easily become a 102 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: higher fee three thousand, five hundred or so. 103 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 4: What factors do you think would have led to any 104 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 4: fluctuation in the price? 105 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: Nepotism really, I mean I think so. Yeah, if you 106 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 1: were if you're a let's say you are a member 107 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: of parliament, you're a lord an aristocrat of some sort, 108 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: then you have the funding to get this act passed through. 109 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: But it may have been a quid pro quote thing. 110 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: It may have been a mutual backscratching arrangement, right, and 111 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: so maybe if there wasn't some favor that you could 112 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: grant in addition to being able to pay this three 113 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: thousand pounds. Maybe they would up the price and they say, oh, 114 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,239 Speaker 1: for you, buddy, it's four thousand, five hundred or something 115 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: like that. So there wasn't a strict schedule that decided 116 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: what people would pay exactly. And this was an annulment, right, 117 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: the average person could not afford an annulment. And again, 118 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: as we pointed out, these decisions were primarily made by 119 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: the dudes at the time. So instead, the husband would 120 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: do something that sounds very strange and disturbing. He would 121 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 1: take his spouse to the local marketplace or even a 122 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: cattle auction, a livestock auction. Then he would register his 123 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,679 Speaker 1: wife as property to be sold, and symbolically, a rope 124 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: would be placed somewhere around her body. 125 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 5: Right was this just like for the symbolism, Like, I 126 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 5: don't understand what the function of this rope was, is it? 127 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: It feels symbolic, so strange, it feels symbolic. It would 128 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: be around the person's neck, their waist, or their wrist, 129 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: and then they would have to go stand up on 130 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: an auction blockle people bid on this human being. 131 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 5: Because let's be real, I mean, if anything, maybe correct me, 132 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 5: if I'm not thinking about this stright away This is 133 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 5: sort of a loophole. They're trying to figure out a 134 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 5: semi legal way of doing this thing, of ridding themselves 135 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 5: of this unwonted property. 136 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, spot on, you're absolutely right, because at this 137 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: time these people might not have any recourse and maybe 138 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: both the wife and the husband wish to part ways. 139 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: They may be cooperating in this regard. This is an 140 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: illegal practice, it's definitely a loophole, but the authorities, many 141 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: of whom probably could not afford a divorce themselves, would 142 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to it. It would get ignored 143 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: the way that some other minor infractions are ignored in 144 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: society today, like jaywalking for instance. Sure, you're rarely gonna 145 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: get busted for that. Did you know that the term 146 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: jaywalking was a conspiracy. 147 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was like it was trumped up as a 148 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 5: term of abuse for pedestrians. 149 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: Yep, that's that's exactly true, because this was during the 150 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: propagation of automobiles. Yeah, we have a car stuff episode 151 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: on it. 152 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 5: I remember that, and there's a really great Adam Ruins 153 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 5: Everything episode about just how cars are actually quite terrible 154 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 5: and you know, infrastructure that's based around driving is really 155 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 5: just not very functional at all and YadA YadA, YadA. 156 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: Oh I've got another one. While we're on the tangent. 157 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: Litterbug is another hit piece. It was created to take 158 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: the focus away from the amount of waste that goods 159 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: manufacturers create and put the focus on people. So it's 160 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: your job to take care of the waste. Brilliant Machavelian stuff. 161 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 5: Total bait and switch are kind of like a sleight 162 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 5: of hand, kind of moved misdirection. There you go, press 163 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 5: the digitation man, you nailed that pronunciation. 164 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 4: Man, that's a dung twister. 165 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: We practiced that off air thanky editing that part out casey. 166 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: But we're right. 167 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: You know that this is a loophole. People are turning 168 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: a blind eye to it, and at times the description 169 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: of it seems almost jovial, you know, because what did 170 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: they do after they made this sale? 171 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 5: They drank Probably they went to a bar. Yeah, yeah, 172 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 5: they set a divorce party. What's interesting about this, though, Ben, 173 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 5: is that there's something else going on beneath the surface, 174 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,959 Speaker 5: because on first glance, this entire charade just seems just ugh, 175 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 5: grossly misogynistic, and of course it is, but there's an 176 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 5: aspect that we haven't talked about. Yet the woman actually 177 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 5: had like a veto vote over who she went with, 178 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 5: and she was likely just as ready to get out 179 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 5: of this marriage as the husband wants to be rid 180 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 5: of her. And this was, in a weird way, gave 181 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 5: her the ability to kind of control her destiny much 182 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 5: more than she would in an an allment where she 183 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 5: was just you know, thrown out of the street with 184 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 5: no property right. 185 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: And we have found specific instances, documented occurrences of this happening. 186 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: It's not a rumor. There's a great article from the 187 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: Review of Behavioral Economics called wife Sales by Peter T. 188 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: Leeson and a few other authors, and they describe in 189 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: no uncertain terms specific situations where this occurs. There was 190 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 1: a gentleman named Moses Maggs who we have a quote 191 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: from in the course of attempting to sell his wife. 192 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to do a voice, but it's 193 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: it's written in that way, that kind of condescending way 194 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: that authors of yesteryear would write whenever they thought someone 195 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: had a lower class accent. You know, there's a lot 196 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: of weird apostrophes, a lot of misspelled words, but here 197 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: it goes ladies and gentlemen, I act left to a post. 198 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 4: Your notice. 199 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: Her is a good creature and goes pretty well in harness. 200 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: With a little flogging. Her can carry one hundred and 201 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: a half of coal's from the pit for three good miles. 202 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 1: Her can sell it well and put it down her 203 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: throat in less than three minutes. Now, my lads roll 204 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: up and bid spirited. I bought her through the turnpike 205 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: and paid the mond the toll for her. I brought 206 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: her with a halter and had her cried. Now, gentlemen, 207 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: who bids, go and go and go? And I can't delay, 208 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: As the auctioneer says, I can't dwell on this lot, 209 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,199 Speaker 1: Come say six shillings. 210 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: This is a horse you're talking about, right man? 211 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: One would think nol. This is Moses Maggs selling his wife. 212 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: She consented to be sold. When they finished the transaction, 213 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: she was sold for six shillings and three gallons of ale. 214 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 4: What was that part though, about putting her in some 215 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 4: sort of harness a halter? Yeah, well, I don't understand. 216 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 4: You're gonna have to help dissect this one for me 217 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: a little bit. Then there's something about coal carrying loads. 218 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: It was talking about what that guy saw as the 219 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: skills of his former spouse. 220 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 4: Jesus, I know. 221 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: And there's a bit of a puzzle here, according to 222 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: these authors, because this sale of someone's spouse resulted in 223 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: the de facto dissolution of a marriage, because the DuJour, 224 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: the legal way was very, very difficult, but it wasn't 225 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: the only de facto way to dissolve a marriage. You 226 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: could have a judicial separation, or you could privately say, look, 227 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 1: no one has the time or money for a divorce, 228 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: but let's just go live separately, you know what I mean. 229 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: You could do those things. Sure, so's it's a bit 230 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: confusing for us to understand how this practice of selling 231 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: someone in a public space became not commonplace but became 232 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: a real thing. 233 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I was trying to kind of get to 234 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 5: a point about how this sort of afforded the wife 235 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 5: a bit more control than she would have had otherwise 236 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 5: by consentings. 237 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 4: Like you said, she consented to be sold, even though 238 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 4: that got. 239 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: A bit more agency, Yeah, a little. 240 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 4: Bit more agency. 241 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 5: And in this article from Other Board by Ben Richmond 242 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 5: called why wife selling was advantageous for wives that cites 243 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 5: that same paper by Peter Lison that you were talking about, 244 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 5: and he makes the point that in the records of 245 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 5: the Nearing around three hundred wives that were sold between 246 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 5: seventeen eighty and eighteen fifty, all signs point to almost 247 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 5: every single one of them being consensual or the wife 248 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 5: being all for it. 249 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 250 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: And there's a great part of glaby of this article, 251 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: because there's a great part of there where they talk 252 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: about how the concept of marriage has evolved. You know, 253 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: in twenty nineteen, most of the time, when we think 254 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: of people marrying, at least in the Western world, we 255 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: think of people marrying because they have genuine affection for 256 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: one another, they like each other. 257 00:14:59,440 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 4: Right. 258 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: However, that wasn't the case, that's relatively recent. Until about 259 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: two hundred years ago, marriage was thought of as much 260 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: more of a transactional economic relationship. 261 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah. 262 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: So justin E. H. 263 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: Smith, in an essay for Lapham's Quarterly, has the following 264 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: quote describing how marriage had been for the bulk of 265 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: human history. Marriage was for most of human history a 266 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: variety of exchange, one that consolidated social ties between families 267 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: or clans. And it's sort of like that conversation we've 268 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: had before about why people had so many more children 269 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: than they do now. Sure, at least in Europe and 270 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 1: in the US, it's because you would have children as 271 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 1: free labor and then as health insurance when you're elderly, 272 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: they would take care of you. 273 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 274 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: And if that, what is it like a Craigslist post 275 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 5: sounding ad for that wife that was up for sale, 276 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 5: is any indication? I think wives were probably treated as 277 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 5: slave labor a bit. It's terrible, you know. But here's 278 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 5: the thing in the in the Motherboard article, Lison goes 279 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 5: on to point out something that I hadn't even considered. 280 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 5: Who are the ones that are in the market for 281 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 5: these as he refers to them used wives. 282 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 3: Right or unhappy wives? 283 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 4: Yeah? Exactly who is it? Well, it's a couple of 284 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 4: different possibilities. 285 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 5: It could be folks who have just not have been 286 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 5: unlucky in love, you know, and just haven't done very 287 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 5: well in the traditional kind of marriage marketplace. It could 288 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 5: be uh, folks acting on behalf of wealthy individuals who 289 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 5: are just on the lookout for maybe maybe they're like 290 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 5: wealthy you know, widowers or something like that looking for 291 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 5: a new wife. Or it could actually be the families 292 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 5: of the wives themselves. 293 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: Ah, I see, Yeah, Essentially, the economic argument here is 294 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: that wife sales permitted unhappy women to trade a marriage 295 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: that they didn't particularly care for with a marriage that 296 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: they valued more. So this seems like an improvised system 297 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: that was organically created to get around the laws of 298 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: the time, and it is still it's always going to 299 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: be a little bit puzzling because there were other avenues 300 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 1: for de facto divorce. But Leason his team found that 301 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 1: wife sales benefited wives rather than harmed them, and they 302 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: argue that without this institution, at least some unhappy spouses 303 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: in industrial revolutionary England would have remained trapped in inefficient 304 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: marriages that they wanted to exit. I'm laughing at the 305 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 1: phrase inefficient because it's weird to hear economists describe marriage. 306 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: They weigh in on it in the following perspective. The 307 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: way that we think of marriage from an economic perspective 308 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: is to think about how much each of the spouse's 309 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: value being in the marriage relative to one another and 310 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: relative to living outside the marriage. So it makes sense 311 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 1: to me that an economist would look at this from 312 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: a value based, transactional perspective rather than like the love 313 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: the you know, the romance the sticking together for the kids, 314 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: all the things that are so common today. Right, it 315 00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: seems that we are in a very privileged position where 316 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: we have more agency in our own relationships. Regardless of 317 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: who you are and how you identify. The truth of 318 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: the matter is that you can marry people because you 319 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: like them now instead of needing to, you know, end 320 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: the blood feud between your clans, or to get a 321 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: dowry and so on. What even as a dowry, it's 322 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: the it's the payoff that the bride's family gives to 323 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 1: the group. 324 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 4: So it's just a cash, cash offering basically. 325 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: I think it could be it could be a bar 326 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: ordering thing. It could be property. It's brought like you marry, 327 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: you agree to marry someone, at least traditionally, and then 328 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: the bride comes with maybe it's maybe it's land, right, 329 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: maybe it's livestock. Maybe it's just straight up cash. 330 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 4: But you know, loophole this thing was. 331 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 5: It really started to kind of lose its luster, and 332 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 5: husbands who were trying to sell their wives kind of 333 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 5: became a little bit looked at his social pariahs. 334 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 4: And it just wasn't done, you know what I mean. 335 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 5: So the practice kind of went away, but apparently the 336 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 5: vintage news rights that they found a case as recently 337 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,680 Speaker 5: as nineteen thirteen when a woman said that her husband 338 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 5: sold her to one of his work buddies for one pound. 339 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 4: So that's obviously an outlier, but yeah, what. 340 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,399 Speaker 5: An interesting practice, and the whole idea that it was 341 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 5: somehow better than the alternative for women. 342 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So the decline of wife sales largely coincided 343 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: with the rise of more equal property rights and the 344 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: ease of getting a legitimate or djure divorce. Also, the 345 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: speeches from these people who are attempting to sell their 346 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: spouses are so strange. For instance, there's one guy in 347 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two, I just want to list this off. 348 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: He lists his spouses bad and good qualities as he 349 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: saw them. He called her a born serpent and advised 350 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 1: prospective buyers to avoid frolicsome women as you would a 351 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: mad dog, a roaring lion, a loaded pistol, or cholera. 352 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: Then he listed her assets, which included the ability to 353 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: milk cows, the ability to sing well, and to be 354 00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: a great drinking companion. And apparently they were still friends afterward, 355 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:05,479 Speaker 1: which is to me just the strangest thing. And you know, 356 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: if you are listening and you are married, or you 357 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: have been married, or you are engaged, congratulations. I absolutely 358 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: wish you the best. Please, please, please, whatever you do, 359 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: don't try to sell your spouse. Just don't do it. 360 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: It's so weird. 361 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 4: It's a bad look. 362 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 3: It's not a good look. 363 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 4: Yeah. 364 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,159 Speaker 1: It's poor, poor form, very poor form. And thankfully, in 365 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 1: this day and age, it is illegal. 366 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. 367 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 5: I mean it was illegal back then, but the authorities 368 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 5: seem perfectly willing to throw to turn a blind eye 369 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:39,479 Speaker 5: to it. 370 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 4: Certainly would not be the case today. 371 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 5: I think this would be highly frowned upon and you 372 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 5: probably wouldn't be able. 373 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 4: To get away with it. Yeah. 374 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 3: Human trafficking. That's that's the word. 375 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 4: That's the word. 376 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: We hope that you enjoyed today's episode, and as always, 377 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: we would love to hear some of your takes, your feedback, 378 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: or your understanding of similar situations if some occurred in 379 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: your neck of the Global Woods. You can find us 380 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,360 Speaker 1: on Instagram, you can find us on Facebook. You can 381 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: speak with your fellow Ridiculous historians on our Facebook page 382 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. 383 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 5: Yeah, if you want to check out me and my 384 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 5: various adventures around town with my weird ten year old. 385 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 5: You can check me out at Embryonic Insight on Instagram. 386 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: And I believe when this episode comes out, I'll either 387 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: have just returned or be on the way to the DMZ, 388 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: So if you want to see some pictures of that, 389 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: follow me on at Ben Bolan at Instagram. Thank you, 390 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 1: super producer, Casey Pegram. Thanks to our research associate, Eve's 391 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 1: jeffcot who we really should have on the show at 392 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 1: some point. 393 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 5: She's got some really cool stuff brewing. Thanks to Alex 394 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 5: Williams who composed the theme, and thanks to you Ben 395 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 5: Bollin for being. 396 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 4: A pal and a cohort. Likewise, Noel, thank you. 397 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: And luckily I did not find a comic book that 398 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm pertained to today's topic that was worth recommending, which 399 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: I think is a good sign for society overall. 400 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 4: Agreed, See you next time, folks. 401 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 402 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 5: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.