1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to okate F Daily with 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody. Pre recording from the Home Bunker, Folks. 3 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: On today's show, we get into a conversation with our friend, 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, and we talk 5 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: to him about the kind of stages of grief that 6 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,560 Speaker 1: we continue to find ourselves in three weeks removed from 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: this election, and what is it going to take for 8 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: us to be able to navigate through and to find 9 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:49,000 Speaker 1: the strength again to imagine what resistance looks like in 10 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: the new Trump regime. I think that it's important, and 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: I say this in the interview with Jonathan, that we 12 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: actually take this time to feel our feelings, that we 13 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: take this time not to do a series of finger 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: pointing or the ways in which you know, this policy 15 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: measure wasn't talked about enough, or that policy measure wasn't 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: talked about enough, but actually really feeling the grief and 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: the disappointment and the anger that many feel towards half 18 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: of this country right now, this kind of disorientation around 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: who we are and who we will be over the 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: next several years under the Trump regime. And you know, 21 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: how do we find our way back in this moment 22 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: of darkness, back to the light. What does it mean 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: to do that? And so Jonathan and I, you know, 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: go through this conversation because, as I've said to all 25 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: of you, I am in the midst of feeling a 26 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: whole host of things where I feel one that the 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Democratic Party is as responsible for getting us to this 28 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: position as the Republican Party is, and that maybe it 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: is time for a multi party system. But do we 30 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: jump right into the fixing and the doing before we 31 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: actually move through the feeling. So that conversation with Jonathan 32 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: is coming up next, folks. You know that whenever we 33 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: have the opportunity to sit down with our in house doctor, 34 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzel, we are always thrilled for the opportunity 35 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: to get your analysis. Jonathan. We are three weeks removed 36 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: from the election, and I'm gonna be honest with you. 37 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,920 Speaker 1: I can't seem to move in a straight line on this. 38 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: I am up and down. I'm not in a place 39 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: of how could this happen? I'm just like, there is 40 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: just this overwhelming sense of grief around America right now 41 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: that I have, and also just the desire to really disconnect. 42 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask you, like about kind of 43 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: this process. Is it like going through and maneuvering through 44 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: an unexpected death, Like is it like dealing with news 45 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: that a family member is ailing and they're not going 46 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: to make it? Like how do you make sense of 47 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: these feelings? 48 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 2: If you talk to people on the right, they're very 49 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: energized right now, they're very optimistic, they're very upbeat. They 50 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: won the game, right and our side loss, and so 51 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: the question is like, how do you respond to that? 52 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: I guess I'm seeing a number of different responses. One is, 53 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: as we've seen a lot of finger pointing. Another is, 54 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 2: and I've seen this so widely. This is just me 55 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 2: talking as a person, not as a researcher, disengagement or disbelief, 56 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: like so many people are like, Oh, it's not going 57 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: to be that bad, it's not going to be that different, 58 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 2: Like a kind of acceptance minimizing and then the resistance 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff like we saw before, right, 60 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: And so I find actually the minimize I mean, of 61 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: course an emotional roll crushure too, because everybody's just tired. 62 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: Like we had this huge election, and remember the feeling 63 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 2: like when you won an election, you feel great, You're like, okay, 64 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: let's get started. It's energy and that kind of stuff. 65 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: But now we have the opposite, which is we got 66 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 2: our best kicked, and so there's a sense of helplessness. 67 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: There's a sense of I worked so hard and I 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: have nothing to show for it. There's just a resignation 69 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: all those things. And I don't know, I mean, there's 70 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: all seem like normal human responses honestly to the situation 71 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: we're in right now. But I guess I think I've 72 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 2: mentioned this before, but like, I have a colleague who's 73 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: from a country that was a democracy and turned into 74 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 2: a totalitarian regime actually, and a couple of friends from 75 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: different places, one in Europe when in Asia specifically, I 76 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 2: always ask them, like, what's it like when you're thriving 77 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 2: democracy became single party rule telleritarian thing and people, you know, 78 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 2: both people I've really stuck talked to a length about 79 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 2: this said, the scariest thing is not like the resistance 80 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: was crushed. We kind of saw that happening. It was 81 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: more that kind of people just kind of accepted it. 82 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: It kind of impacted their like was there an apathy 83 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: would that be the word or not? Apathy? 84 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: Like resignation. All of a sudden, people were like different. 85 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: It wasn't like remember in twenty sixteen when Trump pointed 86 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: people were like out there in the streets and in 87 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: march and all these kind of things. But now like 88 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,479 Speaker 2: many of the things Trump says make kind of sense 89 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: to people, or people minimize it or they're afraid and 90 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: they just want the bad stuff not to happen to them. 91 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: And we hear this a lot, right, We hear this 92 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: a lot, and so the question is kind of what 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,239 Speaker 2: do you do in the face of that? But I guess, 94 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: you know, one of my colleagues told me people just 95 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 2: accepted it as their daily life. They started to do 96 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: whatever they needed to survive, and people I never would 97 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: have expected started telling on their neighbors. And that's kind 98 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: of what happens. Is people are in this system and 99 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: then the system changes, and then I don't know, I mean, 100 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: not related, but I'm thinking, like, for example, about those 101 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: democracy protesters in Hong Kong right now. For example, ten 102 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,039 Speaker 2: years ago, who could ever imagine Hong Kong was a 103 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: thriving democracy and there's no way China would upend that 104 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,919 Speaker 2: because it was such a great financial boom and China 105 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: would never commit like economic suicide. That would be totally irrational. 106 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 2: And now all those protesters are in trial or in 107 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 2: prison or things like that. China's not doing great economically, 108 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: but that was the price that they paid to enrich 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: certain people and create power for certain people. And Hong 110 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 2: Kong is still there, but it's a shell of what 111 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: it was economically before. And so you know, it's just 112 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 2: the logic through which people say, oh, this is never 113 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: going to happen turns out not to not to be 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 2: the logic that actually works. 115 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'm wondering, is it's never going to happen or 116 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 1: it's not going to be that bad? Is that self protection? 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: Is it disassociation? Given that history is in fact, like 118 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: a really good guide in this place. And again, I'm 119 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: not saying that things will dramatically, to your point, change 120 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: in twelve months, but they will this slow, this creeping 121 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: fascism that I think has been creeping for the last 122 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: nine years. Is it self protection, the disassociation, the belief 123 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 1: that it couldn't possibly or it won't be that bad. 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: Is that a form that people are taking in order 125 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: to kind of steal themselves. 126 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: Well, I think there are two ways to think about that. 127 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: I mean, of course people feel defeated, and they feel resigned, 128 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: and they feel exhausted. The answer that I find frustration 129 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: with is like people thinking that this is going to 130 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 2: be the same as what happened in twenty sixteen, and 131 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:46,679 Speaker 2: it ain't. 132 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: It is not. 133 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 2: We're going We're in a different world right now. And 134 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 2: so you know, I've had talked to numerous people who 135 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: are like, oh, it's just the same as twenty sixteen 136 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 2: and we got through it and stuff like that. I'm like, yeah, 137 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: but the challenge is really different right now. This is 138 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 2: a much different entity than Trump taking over while all 139 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: of the guardrails were still in place in twenty sixteen. 140 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: And that's not the case now. I mean, if you 141 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 2: look just at what the Supreme Court by itself, Alito 142 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: and on down are aiming to do with many core 143 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 2: foundations of education, reproductive rates, guns, all those kind of things. 144 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 2: Is this is not twenty sixteen. And so I've been 145 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: trying to explain to people, hey, look, man, it's a 146 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 2: lot different right now. But I think the other thing 147 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: is we have to look at ourselves. I think that, 148 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: you know, I'm just thinking of Jason Stanley's book about 149 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: the rise of authoritarianism, and one of the most important 150 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: things for that to rise is a fractured opposition. And 151 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: so I think it's really a time also for us 152 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: to really look at our if you're not in the 153 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 2: governing party right now, look at ways. You know, we 154 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 2: have to rebuild a coherent, almost monolithic opposition or we're 155 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 2: just going to keep getting fragmented. And so I think 156 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: that there's also a chance to reflect on ourselves, because 157 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 2: I think strategy going forward is really important. 158 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: You know what's really funny is that no one that 159 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: I am talking to is in strategy mode. They're in shock, 160 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: they're in protection mode, they're in cya mode. There is 161 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 1: not a lot of forward thinking. And I think that 162 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: there is just this place of emotional and physical haze 163 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: that has come from the last hundred and some odd 164 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: days of like utter exhaustion. And I do think that 165 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Steve Bannon's strategy of flooding the zone 166 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 1: has been like a tsunami. Even as we're going through 167 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: each and every single appointment and each person that's coming up. 168 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: I did a video yesterday and I said, you know, 169 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: I'm going to be honest I actually don't care. I 170 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: am in a place of like he could appoint Daffy 171 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: Duck at this point, and I actually don't give a fuck. 172 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: And for me, it is a genuine numbness, like I'm like, 173 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: what is the point of following each and every single 174 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: one of these appointments? What's the point in following every 175 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: single bouncing ball that Donald Trump and this administration is 176 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: going to be putting out? Where's the end? And so 177 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,199 Speaker 1: I think that obviously there are people that are doing 178 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: a lot of protectionism, particularly those in the nonprofit arena, 179 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: given that you know, their entire organizations could potentially be 180 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: shut down and name this terrorist organizations and then just 181 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: go from there and what happens to those people and 182 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: those entities and then the people that they were trying 183 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: to help and protect. But I don't know, there isn't 184 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: a lot of forward thinking, And I think that that 185 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: both worries me and I also completely understand it because 186 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: I think that a lot of people, particularly black women, 187 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: are just like, well, you wanted this, so go ahead, 188 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: you know, Like I'm not engaging at the level or 189 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: with the intensity that I did in twenty sixteen or 190 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: that I did in twenty twenty, Like, I don't have it. 191 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: It's so delicate right now, you know, honestly, because the 192 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: Democrats lost for a number of reasons. I mean, Trump 193 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,800 Speaker 2: didn't overperform, We underperformed. And so the question is how 194 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 2: did our coalition fall apart? And was that the end 195 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: of the coalition or not? And so I think there's 196 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 2: a lot of reckoning that will happen. I also think 197 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: that as the impact of what's going to happen on 198 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 2: people's daily lives becomes more real, people hopefully will become 199 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 2: more energized. But maybe that's not the case. Maybe people 200 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: are afraid and exhausted and resigned, and that's the case. 201 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 2: But I just think something has to happen, and maybe 202 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: now is not the time. And you know, it's the holidays. 203 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 2: People are tired. We lost. I hope we rebuilt. I 204 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: really knew. But I would love it if he appointed 205 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: Daffy Duck to me. That would be a game changer. 206 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: I would actually about that. So if Daffy Ducks are 207 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: the cards to me, that would change everything. 208 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: You know. I will say this though, you know, to 209 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: your point, like Democrats were not shellacked in this election. 210 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: It is the narrowest margin of a win in modern times. 211 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: He's under fifty percent in the popular vote, like it 212 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: was such a narrow win. So I will push back 213 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: on the coalition collapsing, because that would have been like 214 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: if this had been a title wave. It wasn't. There 215 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: were a number of people, millions of people that did 216 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 1: not engage at all in this election, and I think 217 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: that that is for a number of reasons, as is 218 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: the case with every presidential election, where everyone that has 219 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: the ability to vote does not vote. 220 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 2: Well, let me let me be clear, then I agree 221 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 2: with you. I think that going forward, what's going to 222 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: happen is that people are going to have different stakes 223 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: in what's happening, and so people who are wealthy are 224 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 2: gonna do better, people who are white are potentially going 225 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: to do better. As these immigration crackdowns start happening, people 226 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: are going to either think I'm out there, I'm gonna 227 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,719 Speaker 2: take a risk, or it's not happening to me. I'm 228 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: going to stay home, and that kind of thing. And 229 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: so I guess I would hold by the fact that 230 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: there were fault lines that helped contribute to our underperformance 231 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 2: in this election, even though we was again a close election. 232 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 2: We didn't win the election, and we didn't win a 233 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: bunch of congressional and Senate seats that we probably should have, 234 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: and so I do think that there were fault lines 235 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: that we just don't have the luxury of having anymore, 236 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: like either we're on the same team or we're not. 237 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 2: And so creating a narrative about that, I think is 238 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: going to be important because I just again, I just 239 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: don't think we have a luxury of hashtag dismantle anything 240 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 2: at this point. And agree, I agree with you, it's close, 241 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: But I'm saying that as the effects of NBC potentially 242 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 2: going away and squashing the Department of Education and then 243 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: doing all these things in a way, it's just going 244 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 2: to be harder to build that coalition, and so the 245 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 2: fracturing is going to you know, we just have to 246 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: be careful that the fracturing is not just about self 247 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: interest but is about mobilization, which I think is going 248 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: to be the challenge. 249 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: So here's my thing. One of the things that I 250 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: have been kind of reframing myself around these systems don't work, 251 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: and they've never worked for black people, for people of color, 252 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: for women. We've taken incremental changes and growth and have 253 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 1: made them bigger than they are. When we look at 254 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: the institutions that are going to be destroyed, I'm kind 255 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: of sitting here Jonathan these days, and I'm just like, well, 256 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: if your life expectancy, your viability, economic viability can all 257 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 1: be determined by your zip code, by what elementary school 258 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: and high school you went to, by your geographical location, 259 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: and that continues to be a serious determining factor, then 260 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: like the systems that were put in place to lift 261 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: people up haven't when I look at like the difference 262 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: in terms of education just in blocks in Brooklyn alone, right, 263 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: depending on what area, what neighborhood in Brooklyn you are, 264 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: if your child was able to get into a Magnet school, 265 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: if you're you know, or you're in a regular public school, 266 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 1: whatever determines everything. So in a way, I'm at a 267 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: place where I'm just like, well, he's going to destroy everything. 268 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: And we've been painting a rotten house for generations and 269 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: haven't seen the racial wealth gap, haven't seen the gender gap, 270 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: haven't seen any of these things decrease with any significance. 271 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: And so I think that for some of the people 272 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: that did stay home, they're taking some not all. Some 273 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: just didn't give a fuck at all, but some were 274 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: looking at this and saying, tell me what the serious 275 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: differences have been. And at some point, maybe things just 276 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: do need to be destroyed. Unfortunately, maybe there does need 277 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: to be a significant loss of life for there to 278 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: be a jarring out of like this complacency, out of 279 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: this malaise of incrementalization. 280 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: You and I have talked about this before, Like, I 281 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: think the frustration is something that you and I can 282 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 2: both see, right. I mean, it wasn't just that people 283 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 2: stayed home. Plenty of working less people and people of 284 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: color voted for Trump, and so that frustration is something 285 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 2: that he really tapped into well by and spent a 286 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 2: long time telling everybody the economy was great and it 287 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: wasn't great for them. And so I think part of 288 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 2: that issue is you and I talked about like the 289 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: politics of joy, but I don't know the Republicans one 290 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 2: hundred percent attack ADS and so we were on the 291 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: defense the entire time, and so what you're talking about 292 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 2: is real, of course is real. But again, I just 293 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 2: I'm so wary of the politics of burning everything down 294 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 2: because that imagines that we're going to build back a 295 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: better system. 296 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 1: No, no, no. What I'm saying is that we are 297 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: not going to build back a better system. Somebody will. 298 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: And it isn't our politics of burning things down. It's 299 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 1: the politics that has now been elected whose plans are 300 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: and strategy is to burn everything down. So if you 301 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: have no mechanism of power, not in the House, not 302 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 1: in the Senate, the people themselves are tired and exhausted. 303 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: It is not the mentality of like, oh, let us 304 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: get into like this is what their plan is. And 305 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: so my thing is like, no, we this generation that 306 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: is here right now is not going to be a 307 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: part of the rebuild because there's going to be decades 308 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: a generation of destruction and darkness that is coming. But 309 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: at some point, as waters recede, there is a billback phase. 310 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is that the majority of us 311 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: won't be here for that. 312 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I need Daffie Duck, honestly, right, I need 313 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 2: that again, Like this is our moment. It just feels 314 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 2: like crap. And then honestly, man, we need a narrative, 315 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 2: like we need a unifying narrative. So I don't know, 316 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: we have to figure out study what other people have done. 317 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 2: I don't know, we need a narrative that kind of 318 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 2: brings it back together. If the Democrats are not the 319 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: party of the mainstream or the working class or people 320 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: who are. I mean, we just don't have a narrative 321 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: right now. So we need a narrative. And often narratives 322 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: are defined in opposition. And so if Trump overplays his hand, 323 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: it's easier to have a resistance narrative than when we 324 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 2: just don't have a narrative right now. And so we're 325 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: scrambling and terrified. And as you say, the issues for 326 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: which you and I and many other people have fought 327 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 2: for lives are serious risk right now. We've got to 328 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 2: figure something out. We've got to figure something out. 329 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that at some point something will 330 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 1: be figured out. But I think that what I encourage 331 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: people to do is kind of move through their feelings 332 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: and emotions at this point, because that's really all there 333 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,400 Speaker 1: is to do. And I think that where our problem 334 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: comes is consistently in this rush to you know, build 335 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: the plane while flying it. And I think that I'm 336 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: at a point at least today, this week and this 337 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,119 Speaker 1: month where I'm just like, yeah, I don't feel like 338 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: doing both, and like I actually just feel like sitting 339 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: in this and seeing how it unfolds before I spring 340 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: into action. And I think that there needs to be 341 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: a deeper analysis and reflection before there is a new 342 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: strategy and a message. 343 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 2: I'm with you there. It's Thanksgiving. Everybody, take a breath, 344 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 2: and then we can figure it out. 345 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: We will as always, my friend, Jonathan, thank you for 346 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: making the time for wokf appreciate you. 347 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 2: Hang in there, We'll get back on our feet. It's 348 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 2: just going to take a minute kind of realizing what's 349 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 2: happening right now. One hundred. 350 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Here folks on wokef 351 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: as always. Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 352 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.