WEBVTT - Developing Privacy On The Blockchain With Jake Yocom 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.800 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make informed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.319 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:25.520 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:30.480 this started. Welcome to another episode of the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.960 I'm sitting down with Jake Yo coom pat from Zero 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.960 LLC and the project lead of Decred. We get into 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.000 what it takes to be a project lead, what it 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:43.960 takes to build in the blockchain space, and how he's 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:47.159 going about doing that. We get into decred project. We 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.239 talk about the changes in governance that they think are 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.080 working really well for them, where that may go into 0:00:53.080 --> 0:00:56.600 the future. We talk about privacy, why we need it, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.920 why we should have it, and what they're doing about 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.160 bringing privacy back to the blockchain. Some really cool stuff there. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.600 Some other stuff that we talk about includes um buying, 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.960 selling and exchanging in pure privacy, including a new d 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:14.760 e X and new decks at their building. Lots of 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:16.880 other good conversations with Jake. So it's going to just 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:19.160 jump right into it. Everyone, Welcome to another episode of 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.479 the Market Disruptors podcast. Today, I am joined by Jake 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.240 yocum Piet. He is the project lead over at de 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:28.320 cred and has been writing some cool articles working on 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.080 a lot of cool stuff. I can't wait to talk 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:33.520 to him. So welcome Jake. Thanks for having me Mark, 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.039 It's a pleasure to be here. Great. So, um, yeah, 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:38.360 I kind of gave a little bit of an intro, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.039 but why don't you just kind of fill us in 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:42.360 a little bit on on who you are and and 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:44.760 uh maybe how you got to where you at right 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.960 now and working on decred on the project for sure. Um, 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:52.160 I'm Jacocompi. I'm the project lead for decred, and I've 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.840 been working in the cryptocurrency space since late twelve early 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.760 and my history is really, you know, to keep it 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.080 really brief, is I started working in the bitcoin spased 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:07.080 on an alternative full note bitcoin implementation called btc suite 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:10.080 and worked on that for a while. And my perception 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:13.160 of bitcoin is that, despite being you know, excellent technology 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.680 and and really, you know, really a great project, is 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:18.800 that I felt that the governance system of it was 0:02:18.800 --> 0:02:21.840 pretty unfair and I found that pretty you know, pretty 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.000 jarring and not exactly the best user experience from my position. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:30.320 So I ended up working with two a couple other 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:33.120 people to create a you know, a set of changes 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.919 on top of Bitcoin that we felt would make Bitcoin 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.480 a you know, a fairer game. That is that not 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:41.920 just make it fairer from storing and transmitting value, but 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:44.480 make it fairer from the perspective of governance. So that 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.840 was really what we launched the project with a focus on. 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.240 And that's sort of you know, that's our main focused 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.920 And and uh, when when was that that you launched 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.560 the decredit project. Oh yeah, that was a February, So 0:02:57.600 --> 0:02:59.480 that's like three and a half a little over three 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:01.440 and a half years ago now. So we've been in 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:04.639 production since February sixteen, and the work to create decred 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.880 started back in February fourteen, so it took us a 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.520 couple of years to get everything, you know, set and ready, 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.440 and then we launched with a working code and everything. 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.079 So like the first four years you were kind of 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.639 in in and around bitcoin cryptocurrency space, Um, you were 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.800 fascinated by bitcoin and then working on bitcoin with with 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.359 some other projects, kind of learning to code and develop 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:28.960 on it. Yeah, yeah, and and I myself, I'm not 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.200 a developer, but I worked with I've worked with a 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.680 team of developers now for you know, over ten years. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.400 And we had approached bitcoin from the perspective of saying, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.240 you know, what could we really bring to the table, 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:40.680 And what we felt we could bring to the table 0:03:40.800 --> 0:03:43.760 was some diversity in terms of the ecosystem for full 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.400 note clients, because in the case that you know, let's 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.600 just say something bad were to happen to say, Bitcoin 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.880 Corps hits a nasty bug, then there's you know, at 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.720 least one implementation that presumably wouldn't have those same bugs, 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:56.800 so that the network can keep ticking over and people 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.040 can fix their bugs and get everything back online without 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:03.680 it being a sort of a coordination mess. M hmm. Now, um, 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:05.960 when when you first kind of came in in two 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.680 thousand twelve and and as we kind of say, like 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.080 fell down the rabbit hole, so to speak, Um, where 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.200 there are a couple of core kind of principles that 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.800 really grabbed you and and pulled you in. What was 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:18.320 that like for you? Yeah, I mean what really drew me? 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.760 And I think, you know, whether people realize it or not, 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.640 you know, drew them to the bitcoin game was that 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:25.800 it's that it's a fairer game. You know, if you've 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.400 been if you've been using fiat currency for you know, 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.800 most of your life, and then you see something like cryptocurrency. 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:37.840 It really is striking in that it it avoids many 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:40.000 many problems that you end up having with banks. Anyone 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.880 who's ever had a problem with a you know, with 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:43.960 a bank, whether it's losing an account or you know 0:04:45.080 --> 0:04:49.480 exactly or or any other kinds of problems, recognizes how 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:52.160 much power banks have over you. And and what bitcoin 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:53.919 did that I thought was really amazing is that it 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.680 distilled out what banks, you know, the sort of the 0:04:56.760 --> 0:04:59.080 leverage the banks have, which is that they can create 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.839 a time stamp on your transactions and no one else can. 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.120 So what they did is they decentralized the time stamping process. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.200 And that's you know, that really drew me in and 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:12.960 you know, and kept my attention. Yeah, okay, yeah. So, um, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.839 there's so many different facets to bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. And 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.120 obviously with bitcoin and and being censorship resistant is one, 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.120 so the banks can't seize it or steal it. And 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.839 then obviously the hard cap so it can't be inflated 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:29.279 and manipulated, and you like those core principles about bitcoin, 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:31.520 you just thought maybe there were some tweaks in the 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.480 governance that that could be made. Yeah, yeah, I mean 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.000 it's clear that bitcoin works, right. You know, proof of 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.400 work is a really effective means of coming to a consensus, 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:44.160 even you know, you know centralization problems with hardware aside. 0:05:44.680 --> 0:05:47.359 You know, it really does change the game, and it 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.400 makes the process at least nominally permission lists you can 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:53.440 you can store and transmit value without anyone going hey, 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.520 I don't like you. We're gonna you know, close your 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.200 bitcoin account, and and that is really just uh, you know, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.799 that all worked. The thing that I felt like really 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:04.359 didn't work was the component where you go, Okay, what 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.080 changes are we going to make to the network? Are 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.560 we gonna make consensus changes? Are they gonna be software changes? 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.359 Are they're gonna be hard fork changes? That process is 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.480 incredibly messy, and uh, the one cpu, one vote mechanism 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.560 that was proposed by Cistosi originally doesn't work out so 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:22.120 great when you know, all, let's say the bulk of 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.560 the hash power is in warehouses in one jurisdiction, which 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.839 would be China, mm hmm. Yeah. Did a lot of 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:32.320 that come from I mean, I guess you started working 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.640 on this previous to the forks that happened in seventeen, 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:38.919 so you had kind of maybe seen some issues with 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:43.080 the consensus before before all that forking the four cores 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.760 or the nerd wars happened. Yeah. I mean what the 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:48.840 pattern we saw was this is that is that the 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.880 existing Bitcoin corps and then you know what what became 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.560 block stream is that that group of developers, while you know, 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:58.680 while very talented and you know, they have a lot 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.800 of chops and they've delivered a lot of great code, 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.760 it ends up being a small central planning committee. So 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.680 as much as bitcoin, you know, with the ability to 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.400 you know, uh, store and transmit value without censorship is great, 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:15.480 the system itself going Okay, where is this system going 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.520 to go in the future, is you know, controlled by 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.120 a central planning committee, which is a small number of 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.520 people have an outsized amount of influence over the repository 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:26.720 for the bitcoin, you know, for bitcoin corps. And then 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.120 as a function of that, they are the people who 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:30.760 are in charge of the government or you know, what's 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:33.480 effectively the government of bitcoin. And I felt like that 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.640 system was. You know, something I've never really liked about 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:38.240 the Federal Reserve is that it's a central planning committee. 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:39.760 You know, you and I we might no matter how 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:42.280 much money we have, we can complain all day, or 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.160 you know, we might know somebody at the Fed, but 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:45.960 we're not going to be able to influence their policy. 0:07:46.000 --> 0:07:48.840 And I and that that was roughly the situation that 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:51.440 I found myself in back in I guess it was 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.280 really like late when that really all started to sink 0:07:54.320 --> 0:07:57.480 in for me. So, so give me a rough overview 0:07:57.560 --> 0:07:59.560 of how that how how you've kind of tried to 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.760 fix that, Like what does the consensus mechanism look like 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:05.160 on on the decred project? Yeah, so, so what I 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.960 recognize as I recognized there were really three shortcomings to 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.080 you know, to bitcoin in my mind, one of them 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:13.760 being that h that miners had too much power. That is, 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:15.880 you know, if you looked at what happened with you know, 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:19.760 and from I think it wasteen until seventeen with the 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:22.640 seguate change set. So SegWit is a set of consensus 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:26.040 changes everyone not everyone, but it seemed like the vast 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.880 majority of people wanted them implemented. But the the community 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.920 of miners did not, so they effectively blocked that consensus 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:36.320 change from being implemented for the better part of three years. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:39.360 And uh and you know, seeing that miners just have 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.280 too much power. The other thing that, uh, that I 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.520 experienced was is because uh, you know, I built out 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:49.160 BTC suite and I I financed it myself, was there's 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.120 a real tragedy of the commons with respected development work, right, 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.400 you know, you want to let's say, you know, there's 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:55.960 a team of a hundred people who want to make 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.640 bitcoin grade. It's like becomes a question, Okay, who's gonna 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.320 pay you? And then what are the you know, what 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.280 what is your what's your paymaster's agenda? And then you 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.640 know that's a question mark and then the you know, 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.000 the other thing is is that there's really just no sovereignty, 0:09:10.160 --> 0:09:11.920 you know, no matter how many big you know, even 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.040 if Statoshi wanted to change things, Satoshi couldn't really change 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:18.679 anything because the governance, mechanimics mechanism is all vested in 0:09:19.040 --> 0:09:21.880 the you know, in the miners. So I felt like 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.720 there was a misalignment of interest there because somebody could 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:26.920 mine and just dump all their coins and and still 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:28.800 have an enormous amount of sovereignty in that system, and 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.040 I felt like that was a fundamental misalignment. So these things, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:35.000 combined with reading about a hybrid proof of workproof of stake, uh, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.680 you know consensus system is what led me to say this. 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:41.920 You know, this hybridized consensus algorithm is really what I 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.640 see as the future of you know, of of consensus. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.440 Doesn't a lot of the power lie in the nodes 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.200 who actually decide which version of the software to run, 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.520 and not the miners. There's something to be said for 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:59.120 sovereignty being vested outside of the miners, but you know, 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.400 when it comes down to it, someone has to mind 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.959 the currency, and the mining is where the security comes from. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.360 So I would argue that the miners have a lot 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.439 of a lot of sovereignty, the people developing the software 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:13.840 have a lot of sovereignty, but the people holding the 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.000 coins really don't have a whole lot of sovereignty. And 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.120 then when it comes to note operators, it depends on 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.520 which a note operators you're talking about. Like, like, let's 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.760 say I'm a random person and I have a note running, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:25.319 and I go, I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna not 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.400 follow these consensus rules. Everyone else is like yeah, I 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:32.120 don't care, bye by, and I feel like you know, However, 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.560 there are other nodes that are economic nodes, like say, 0:10:34.960 --> 0:10:37.920 you know, nodes a major exchanges and payment processors that 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.839 have you know, and an outsized amount of power implicitly, 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:44.440 um you know, as a function of their role in 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:48.319 the ecosystem compared to uh, you know, just random people 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.560 operating full notes. So there is there is a little 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:52.960 bit of sovereignty all spread around, right, we can all 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.720 do the user activated software thing and threatened to walk 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:57.360 out of the room and be like funk this, I'm 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.720 out of here. But but you know, I don't think 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:03.360 I don't really view that as much. Uh sort of, 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.560 it's sort of like a it's like a riot switch, 0:11:05.640 --> 0:11:07.960 like if if you do the wrong thing, everybody's gonna 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.840 riot and leave or flip over cars. But it's it's 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:13.960 not a very good government's mechanism, got it. And so 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.920 through through the governance mechanism that you've done, you you 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:19.760 you touched on a couple of things. Um. One, we 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:22.599 talked about the consensus and and having some sort of 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:25.319 like a hybrid pow POS system of proof of work 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.920 and a proof of steak. So the proof of steak 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.200 that people who hold the coins you said who don't 0:11:30.200 --> 0:11:32.960 have a vote, I guess now they're staking those coins 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.120 that they do have skin in the game. Now they 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.920 do have a vote. Yeah that yeah, that's right. So 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.920 so each block subsidy in our system is split three ways, 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.840 proof of work, proof of steake, ten percent treasury. And 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:48.319 the way it works is is that the miners proof 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:50.920 of work create the blocks. And then what proof of 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.920 steak does is that you you opt into a ticket system, 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:55.920 so you lock your coins, you timelock them for a 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:59.400 pseudorandom amount of time, and then your your your coins 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.319 turning to tick gets. The tickets go into a rolling 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.640 lottery and every block, five of these tickets are chosen 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.720 to vote. And what you're voting on is you're voting 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.040 on the validity of the prior block. And so if 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.360 there's a proof of work miner and their misbehaving, it 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:14.080 is conceivable that you can strip them of their mining 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:17.480 reward uh from the previous block. So that so that 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.000 what this does is this puts the proof of stake miners, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.320 you know, firmly in control of what does and doesn't 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.360 happen on the network, so that if there's a malicious 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:28.280 or a group of malicious proof of work miners, the 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.680 proof of you know, the stakeholders can effectively censure them 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.079 and deprive them of income to sort of tow at 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.680 best discourage their continued sort of you know, bad behavior, 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.520 and would then be done by some sort of like 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.640 a majority vote. Yeah. Yeah, So so, uh, every block 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.400 there's five tickets called, you need at least three of 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.360 them to vote or to be included in order for 0:12:49.400 --> 0:12:53.880 the block to be valid. So if or more, uh yeah, 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.200 or more of the votes are yes, the block is valid. 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.640 If there's fifty or more no votes, the block is 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.320 in valid. So um, you know, if enough of the 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.880 stakeholders on a on a rolling basis disapprove of things 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.440 done by certain proof of work miners, they can go 0:13:09.520 --> 0:13:12.040 through and start, you know, invalidating the proof of work 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.680 rewards that those miners receive. Right, But who who's who's 0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:18.720 actually voting though? Like like today, I mean who's voting? 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.400 Is there like a small group of people who are 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.120 actually paying attention to taking time to vote or how 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.439 how is that being done? Yeah? So, so the way 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.280 it works is this is that as blocks, people run 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.920 things called voting wallets, so that as let's say block 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.600 N is mind and then it propagates across the network. 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.240 What that does is that sets a you know, that 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:42.840 sets a pseudorandom uh sortition of the tickets, so that 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:45.400 block and its header go, these are the tickets that 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.360 are going to vote in block N plus one excuse me, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.120 and then those votes end up getting cast. So so 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.000 people have wallets that are online continuously that are ready 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.640 to vote when the blocks are published. And that and 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:02.720 what you do is whether we're talking about voting on 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:05.280 the validity of the prior blocks, proof of work, or 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.119 we're talking about making consensus changes, people can pre program 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.080 their you know there how they would like their voting 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:15.000 whilets to vote. So if there's a certain behavior that 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.280 you want to vote against. For example, let's say you 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.360 saw the mem pool and it has a bunch of transactions, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.360 and and then you see a block that's been mined 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.440 has no transactions in it, you can have a policy 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.760 set such that you vote no to that block and 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:31.640 and you know, correspondingly strip the minor of their rewards. 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:34.240 So so this process is generic. And then and then 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:36.320 the same thing goes. If you're voting on consensus changes, 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:38.440 you can vote yes or no or abstain from votes, 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:43.800 depending on you know, what votements are available to you. Yeah, 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:45.800 there's definitely a lot to unpack there, and I can 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.960 keep asking questions, but I kind of want to move 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.640 on past that. UM. One thing that I do want 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:52.440 to touch on before we dig into some other stuff 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:54.160 I was kind of looking forward to, is as you 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.760 mentioned about the UH ten percent goes to like the 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.640 development fund, I guess, And so I think you kind 0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:02.320 of said, like with bitcoin, the problem is is that 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.960 developers aren't getting paid. So I guess everybody's kind of 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.800 doing it for free UM. And so what kind of 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.200 long term problems could that have in development on bitcoin? 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:15.200 Whereas UH, your project decred has um a reward going 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:17.440 to pay developers. Is that kind of what you were 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.680 talking about? UM? All right, So what I was saying 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.560 is we could spend we could we could spend a 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.640 lot of time talking about UH, talking talking about those 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:27.320 that that area of government. I don't really want to 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.440 dig too much deeper into that, but you did mention 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.080 something about the UM tem per cent of the of 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:34.960 the inflation going to fund the treasury or to fund 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.720 the development, and how other projects like bitcoin don't have 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:44.160 any payments going to developers. Um. And so I guess 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.200 you're saying that Bitcoin potentially could be stunted because eventually 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:50.240 it could run out of people willing to work for free. 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:53.280 And de credit has a model where people get paid 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.440 to work on it. Yeah, that's right. So we have 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.440 a we have a contractor model where where for example, 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:00.760 there's a company that that I own and I'm the 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.880 CEO of Company zero LLC, and it's a development contractor 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.920 and it's one of you know, many contractors that work 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:10.840 for the project, whereas with bitcoin, bitcoin is dependent on 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.520 you know, mostly venture capital money at this point. I 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:16.040 don't think there's any shortage of the venture capital money 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.000 at this point, but in the few that, you know, 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:20.120 there's no guarantee that in the future there you know, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.840 that those funds won't run out. So um. So, what 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:25.800 the way Decred handles is ten percent of every block 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.720 goes to a centralist corporate entity, and then that corporate entity, 0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:33.000 decred Holding UH Decred Holdings Group LLC, pays out to 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.080 contractors who build for the work that they perform, which 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.480 includes you know, company zero and and you know, probably 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.640 about fifty other contractors. Yeah, and we can definitely see 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.080 that UM decredit is working on a lot more projects 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.520 than bitcoin. So some of the projects I've seen you 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:52.080 working on, which I saw one was voted in by 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.920 the community to build a deckx right, a decentralized exchange, 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.960 which I thought was pretty cool. Um, you're also working 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:03.520 on some privacy US, some lightning UM stuff, atomic swaps, 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.640 So I guess that kind of allows you the community 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.760 to kind of work on more projects like that. Yeah. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:12.439 When when we when we started decredit, we started it 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.399 intention We made a constitution to to try to manage 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:17.880 people's expectations a bit. And one of the things we 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.399 said as we said we would continue building open source 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.880 software that's you know, related to the cryptocurrency space, and 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.040 the decks is a great example of that where we're 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:27.600 trying to sort of, you know, the same way were 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:32.439 we we main effort to make the governance process fairer. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.920 We're trying to make the exchange process fairer. So there's 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.040 no you know, ks m L, there's no h you know, 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:41.080 there's no requirements about you know, things you have to do. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.240 You pay an upfront fee to get on a server, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:45.320 and then you can trade, and then the order matching 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.199 is pseudorandom, so no one can gain you on a 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.560 first in, first out basis like they do on most 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.000 uh FIAT exchanges. And then you know, you know, with 0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:55.600 privacy and all of these other things. The funding does 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.679 give us latitude to do, you know, to do new stuff. 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.600 And we also don't have to do pend on the 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:04.240 approval of you know, the venture capitalists who would otherwise 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.680 fund this saying the same way that bitcoin does. Did 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:12.520 you see today, um, the group Anonymous pledged to donate 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:15.879 seventy five million dollars for bitcoin development for privacy. That 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.639 was pretty amazing. I was surprised to see that. I 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.639 think it's pretty interesting. I I did see that as well, 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.280 and and I guess my you know, my feeling is it's, uh, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:27.159 we've seen so many I c O s who have 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.600 you know, a mega pile of money, and you know 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.320 they just sort of you know, uh piss it away 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:34.200 on random stuff or they don't really get a whole 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.440 lot of work done. It's gonna be interesting to see 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:38.439 what comes out of that, you know, one, whether the 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:41.399 funds are you know, do exist, and you know, to 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.120 whether people actually build useful stuff. There's you know, there's 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:45.919 there's a lot of good that could come out of it, 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.400 but it remains to be seen. I'm always skeptical. I'm 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.160 a I'm a deliverables before promise this kind of guy. Sure. 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.159 I just thought it was interesting because they want to 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.199 donate it towards privacy focused stuff, and that's kind of 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.119 where I wanted to focus our conversation today because as 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.560 I saw, you released a paper a few months ago 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:06.520 talking about privacy and how uh kind of kind of 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.119 some of the shortcomings you see or some of the 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.720 needs of privacy in the industry, and how you want 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:15.800 to start optimizing for that. So um, I I personally 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:18.560 like to see more companies such as yourself, seeing seeing 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.520 the need for that and optimizing towards that. But tell me, 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.600 tell me how you look at privacy maybe as as 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:27.840 something that we need and and something that maybe D 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:31.600 credit can help solve for sure. Yeah, I mean when 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:33.760 we launched, our focus was just on the government stuff, 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:35.720 but we always had an eye to adding privacy. I'm 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:38.840 a total privacy nut. I'm probably way more of a 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.720 computer security nut than than most of the people who 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.600 work on the privacy projects, and um, I feel like 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.720 privacy is really important in the context of cryptocurrency because it's, 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:51.359 you know, it's it's a value transfer system. If you 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.200 don't have privacy and value transfer system, somebody can use, say, 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:57.480 you know, something like chain or chain analysis to look 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.320 at your entire networth, all the transactions you have head 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.480 and then figure out who the people are who are 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:04.760 interacting with you, and so on and so on. So 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.159 I feel like, you know, privacy is really about preventing 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.280 people from knowing more, you know, learning things about you 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.360 without your consent, and and and and that I view 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:17.919 as something very you know, very important because if we 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.960 if we look at a world without privacy, which is 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:21.480 really kind of where things have been heading for the 0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:26.800 past decade or two or or five and uh yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.000 ever since the development of radio so uh so, privacy 0:20:30.000 --> 0:20:32.639 has been diminishing. And and the issue there is is 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:35.120 that when you have no privacy, people can always tell 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:38.359 what you're doing currently. And you know, humans are creatures 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:40.199 a habit. If you know what someone is doing currently, 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:41.920 you have a pretty good idea of what they're going 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:43.639 to be doing in the near future. Or in the 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:46.800 or in the distant future. So privacy matters from the 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.639 perspective of control. Someone knows what you're going to do 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:51.919 before you do it, even if it's just a you know, 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:56.239 probabilistic relationship. They can outmaneuver you. They can manipulate what 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:58.399 you what you believe, or what you you know, or 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:02.040 or how you feel about things. So, so privacy matters 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.720 in the context of us creating a society that functions 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:08.879 with a bunch of independent, you know, elements, as opposed 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.679 to sort of a top down society where somebody with 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.760 a satellite can tell you know where everybody's going, where 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.080 everybody has been, and where they will go. So, you know, 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:19.280 it's really it's really about freedom and what kind of 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.760 a society we want to live in the future. Yeah, 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.440 And I think one thing that's important for most people 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.160 to understand is it's not just about like secrecy. It's 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:28.119 not just like I don't want this drug deal to 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:31.320 be known. UM. Let's say that I I'm a manufacturer 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.840 of a product and I have multiple companies buying from it. UM, 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:37.600 and I do a transaction with with company A. I 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:39.560 don't maybe want all the other companies to know what 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:41.359 I sold that product price? You know what the price 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.560 of that product was sold for. So like that that 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:45.840 should be that should be private, right, nobody needs to 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.800 know what that deal was. Um, And so I think 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:51.919 everybody could understand, like you wouldn't want everybody in the 0:21:51.960 --> 0:21:53.880 world to be able to look into your bank account 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:55.760 and see exactly how much money you have in your 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.080 banking and what you were spending, and not because you 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.800 want to buy drugs, but just because you want to 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:05.399 privacy there, right, um and so that's the thing with bitcoin, 0:22:05.440 --> 0:22:07.560 I guess, being being open to everybody, you can see 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.200 all of that and and so um, so so how 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.800 does how how are you approaching privacy and what are 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.919 you looking to do to solve that? So our approach 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:19.880 of privacy was based on, you know, having the luxury 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.440 of observing what everyone else did and for several years 0:22:22.480 --> 0:22:26.880 before we really made a move. So we saw we saw, 0:22:27.200 --> 0:22:29.240 you know, a couple of the two biggest projects for 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:33.719 privacy are probably you know, z cash and Monaro. Monaro 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.399 was first in the game and they did ring signatures 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.320 and then they added confidential transactions afterwards, and then they 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.199 turned it into bulletproofs and the problem you know that 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:45.359 I saw with with Monaro was I like ring signatures, 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:49.679 I like confidential transactions. But um, the thing that occurred 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:51.080 to me right away when I first saw it in 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:54.280 you know, early fourteen, was as soon as you create 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:58.520 ring signatures, you create uh, you know, deniability about how 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.359 um about which transactions are spent and which are not. 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:05.600 So once you don't know which transactions are spent um, 0:23:05.680 --> 0:23:08.520 you end up in a in a scenario where you 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:10.680 can't prune the blockchain. So if I want to go 0:23:11.040 --> 0:23:13.480 if I just want to throw away all the spent transactions, 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:15.080 I can do that with Bitcoin, and I can do 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.280 it with decred, but I can't do it with with 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:19.320 mo narrow. And that's sort of you know, it's it's 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.840 by construction. So they have something they call pruning, but 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:25.040 it's really kind of like it's more database charting. It's uh, 0:23:25.160 --> 0:23:26.800 you know, it's it's great, you know, it's a great 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:29.359 project for privacy, but not for pruning. And then you know, 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:32.000 ze cash has actually the same problem, which is that 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.200 if you're using shield of trans and pruning, the pruning 0:23:34.359 --> 0:23:37.520 is being able to cut the database size down so 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:39.879 that it's uh, it's stays small enough for people to 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.200 run nodes on. Is that what the pruning? Yeah, yeah, 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.560 that's part of it. But I think that the term pruning, 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:47.120 at least, you know, it comes from the context of bitcoin, 0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:50.080 where you can always determine whether something is spent or not. 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:52.560 So what it really is is it's throwing out the 0:23:52.600 --> 0:23:55.760 old transactions that have already been spent. Like you know, 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.159 for example, you don't care where every penny that you 0:23:59.480 --> 0:24:01.040 have in your po it came from. You just care 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.560 that you have them, and and and correspondingly than you know, 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.880 the database for the network should only care about where 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.199 that penny is as opposed to where that penny was. 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:12.119 And and you know, when you use ring signatures or 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.200 you use shielded transactions with z cash, you can't tell 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.040 where that penny was because it could have been any 0:24:18.080 --> 0:24:20.040 of these various pennies that are on you know that 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.200 use privacy, so you can't tell where you know, where 0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:25.399 things have come from, where they're going, and then also 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:27.880 whether they're spent or not. And that's something that really 0:24:27.960 --> 0:24:30.840 drove our you know, the decisions we ended up making, 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:34.280 which is because we saw the consequences and and sort 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:38.080 of of these other systems we thought, we really want 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:41.240 to do privacy, but we really want to avoid uh 0:24:41.320 --> 0:24:44.439 anything that breaks pruning. So so what we ended up 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.320 doing is we ended up implementing coin shuffle plus plus, 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:51.320 which is based on a paper by um uh roughing Merino, 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:54.320 Sanchez and Katte and um. What that is is it's 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.120 you know, it's it's a it's a way of shuffling coins. 0:24:57.119 --> 0:25:01.760 That doesn't right, That's like that's like a coin join. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:03.560 So it's a special kind of coin join. So it's 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:06.240 a it's a dice mixed coin join. The idea of 0:25:06.280 --> 0:25:08.440 being when you have a coin join, right, you know, 0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:10.400 a whole bunch of it. Let's say seven people show 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:12.800 up and they all join their transactions together, and they 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:14.520 do it either through a central server through peer to 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.280 peer network, so that those seven people and possibly a 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:20.359 server know where the where the funds came from, and 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:23.919 where they're going. Now that's obviously not great because you know, 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.600 then all of us, you know, everyone who participated, knows 0:25:26.760 --> 0:25:29.520 where things went. So that's not great from a privacy perspective. 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:31.400 All you need is one person spying on the mix 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.720 and it's in its toast. From a privacy perspective. So 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:37.480 what coin shuffle the coin shuffle element does is it 0:25:37.520 --> 0:25:41.439 is it is it allows everyone participating to to to 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:47.639 communicate cryptographically, exchange keys, exchange some some blinded cryptographic information, 0:25:48.119 --> 0:25:51.479 and then the outputs become decoupled from the inputs. So 0:25:51.520 --> 0:25:53.320 while let's say there's seven of us, and we might 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:55.920 be able to identify here's this cluster of inputs, here's 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:58.359 this cluster of inputs and so on, what we can't 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:00.600 do is we can't determine where the ones went, and 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:04.040 neither can the servers. So that's sort of the that's 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.880 why we were drawn to coin shuffle and then your 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:10.360 coin shuffle plus plus and it didn't break pruning. So 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:14.359 it's a straightforward process that uses basic cryptographic primitives and 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:17.280 allows you to shuffle coins in a way that uh, 0:26:17.359 --> 0:26:19.879 you know, in addition to uh, in addition to it 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:22.080 being anonymous to or you know what, is it private 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:25.480 to everyone in the transaction, including the server. It also 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:28.640 doesn't depend on network privacy, which is you know, which 0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:30.399 is something that I feel like is a shortcoming of 0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:33.720 schemes that use blind signatures. For example, was SABI while 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:36.400 it does that, and I think that the Wasabi walt 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.960 system is really it's really quite great because it's even 0:26:39.160 --> 0:26:42.280 I would argue it's even simpler than coin shuffle plus plus. 0:26:42.320 --> 0:26:44.480 But it has the downside that if somebody can undo 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:50.440 your network path, then they can de anonymize you. So um, 0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:52.720 like with a SABI which would be used with bitcoin 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:54.919 for for the listeners that aren't keeping up with that 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:58.760 technical explanation. Therefore, with saby, it's like an external application, 0:26:58.840 --> 0:27:01.240 so I could use as my wallet and the bitcoin 0:27:01.320 --> 0:27:03.960 I receive, I can shuffle through there or mix them 0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:06.320 and then put them into my wallet. Um, but you're 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:10.119 talking about taking this a similar situation system but different, 0:27:10.600 --> 0:27:13.440 but building it into the protocol as opposed to having 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.320 it be an external system. That's right. So what we 0:27:16.359 --> 0:27:19.000 did is we integrated with our directly with our wallet. 0:27:19.400 --> 0:27:21.159 And then what we also did is remember how I 0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:23.640 was talking about, um this ticket process where you lock 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:26.560 coins to to buy tickets. The tickets are involved in 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:30.680 the in the staking is we intentionally overlaid the system 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:34.080 with our staking system because on any on any given day, 0:27:34.119 --> 0:27:36.000 about I want to say, it's like one point so 0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:38.080 it's either one point in between one point six and 0:27:38.080 --> 0:27:41.040 two percent of our of our entire issuance is being 0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:43.800 used to buy new tickets every day. So we figured 0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:45.879 that by having a system like this and then also 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.879 being able to overlay it with our existing steak you know, 0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:53.080 with our existing existing stake infrastructure, we would get a 0:27:53.119 --> 0:27:56.120 lot of transaction volume that you wouldn't otherwise be able 0:27:56.160 --> 0:27:58.640 to get with the normal mixer, say with with bitcoins. 0:27:58.760 --> 0:28:00.760 In the case of Bitcoin, gonna have a bunch of 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.800 coins moving through it, but those coins are are you know, 0:28:03.800 --> 0:28:05.719 it's only gonna be so much of the you know, 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:07.560 the total issuance. There's gonna be a lot of people 0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:10.080 who just don't use it. Whereas with the way we've 0:28:10.119 --> 0:28:13.879 set it up is all the coins are staked, and 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:15.840 I think at this point I want to say, it's like, 0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:20.320 uh like twenty percent or twenty five percent of the 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:24.240 of the staked coins are moving through this system already. 0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:27.119 So then back to the Bitcoin analogy, So then they 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:29.960 have an external mix it mixer like with SABI, and 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:32.280 if there's not enough people using it, there's not enough 0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:34.679 coins to mix together, so it's not really mixed up 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:36.480 as well as it could be. Versus you're staying with 0:28:36.560 --> 0:28:39.480 decred because people are staking on the system and you're 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:42.480 doing the mixing on the protocol, you have a larger 0:28:42.520 --> 0:28:46.160 percentage of coins to mix through. Yeah, exactly, so, so 0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:48.520 you know, I I'd expect it in absolute terms, I 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:50.840 wouldn't be surprised if say was Sabi, Well it's you know, 0:28:50.960 --> 0:28:54.160 net net amount mixed and sort of fraction of the 0:28:54.240 --> 0:28:55.959 U t x O set and then the value of 0:28:56.000 --> 0:28:58.320 that it's I wouldn't be surprised if it's greater than 0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:02.120 de credits, but de credit market capital still lowish, and uh, 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.880 you know, I want to say we're let's say it's 0:29:06.000 --> 0:29:09.800 of all of the coins staked, is that's ten percent. 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:12.040 I think our market cap is something like, you know, 0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:15.840 uh something like two or two or forty million, and 0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:19.160 that's like two million dollars worth of worth of you know, 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:21.800 coins that are all being mixed together, on and on. 0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.040 And this isn't just you know, one shot and then 0:29:24.040 --> 0:29:26.240 they then they go dormant. In most cases, these coins 0:29:26.240 --> 0:29:30.320 are continuously or semi continuously mixed. Yeah, what do you 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:33.720 think about the future. I mean, I guess you're obviously 0:29:33.720 --> 0:29:36.280 building for this right now, but like the future of 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:39.440 the coin mixing, the coin joining the privacy type coins. 0:29:39.720 --> 0:29:41.480 I mean, we're starting to see so much crackdown and 0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.760 regulation on that right now. I mean, you're obviously building 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:47.440 into it. How do you think about that, like the 0:29:47.480 --> 0:29:51.040 increasing regulation but also the you know, increasing demand for that, 0:29:51.480 --> 0:29:53.720 how do you balance that? I mean, we, you know, 0:29:53.800 --> 0:29:56.120 we did create the system as an opt in system 0:29:56.200 --> 0:29:59.080 on purpose so that you know, people aren't necessarily forced 0:29:59.080 --> 0:30:02.360 to use it. But in terms of regulation, I mean, 0:30:02.400 --> 0:30:04.960 my sense of it is is that it seems like 0:30:05.000 --> 0:30:09.040 people are going to the exchanges first and they're trying 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:12.040 to sort of create liquidity problems, which in part of 0:30:12.080 --> 0:30:14.480 this is why we you know, we decided to build 0:30:14.480 --> 0:30:16.880 the decks, which is that the DECKS allows us to 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:21.360 sidestep things like, let's say, at some point in the future, uh, 0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:25.440 anyone operating and regulated centralized exchange is pressured by their 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:29.440 local nation state government to not list dcred um. The 0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.360 deck side steps that the DECKS is effectively something like 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.160 an email server anyone can set up anywhere there's no 0:30:35.200 --> 0:30:37.920 custody involved, and it's you know, it's it's low risk 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.080 to operate or low to no risk to operate. So 0:30:41.440 --> 0:30:45.160 so this process of dealing with regulations is that. The 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:47.320 way I view it is is that it's it's really 0:30:47.320 --> 0:30:49.280 all about on ramps and off ramps. They're trying to 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:51.760 restrict the on ramps and off ramps, and we're already 0:30:51.840 --> 0:30:54.240 working on building a solution that won't just work for us. 0:30:54.280 --> 0:30:57.360 But hey, let's say z cash and monero experience issues 0:30:57.400 --> 0:31:00.280 with they're on and off ramps. They are absolutely welcome 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:03.280 to get support added to our decks and then you know, 0:31:03.360 --> 0:31:06.200 do their own things. Yeah. And then part of the 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:09.240 big thing with coin joining and or coin mixing uh 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:12.000 if you will, or even with the privacy coins is 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:15.400 is UH to promote the fungibility, which means that they're 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:18.800 all equal to be exchanged like a dollar bill would be. 0:31:19.200 --> 0:31:20.560 And a dollar bill, I don't know what does A 0:31:20.720 --> 0:31:23.320 nine percent of dollar bills have cocaine on them? For example? 0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:25.040 So if they said, hey, if that dollar bill was 0:31:25.040 --> 0:31:27.280 ever used for a drug deal, it's no good anymore. 0:31:27.280 --> 0:31:30.120 We can't the bank can't take it. But they're trying. 0:31:30.160 --> 0:31:33.120 I think maybe some exchanges might already or some people 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:34.840 might say, hey, we don't want to accept that bitcoin 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:38.760 if it came from some blacklisted wallet or something. Um 0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:40.600 so is that is that something big that you're seeing there, 0:31:40.640 --> 0:31:42.440 that's why that's what you think. Well, yeah, I mean 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:44.560 that's that's the direction I think things are going, which 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.720 is that, um, you know, the way nation state governments 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:50.880 have chosen to deal with bad actors is rather than 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:53.560 try to catch bad actors in the act doing bad things, 0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:55.520 what they've done is they've tried to turn all of 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:57.960 the sort of the systems that we use to advance 0:31:58.000 --> 0:32:01.520 ourselves as a human society into surveillance tools so that, 0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:03.920 you know, uh, if they could they put a camera 0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:05.600 and microphone in every pair of shoes and have it 0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:07.680 spin on you to just make sure you're not misusing 0:32:07.720 --> 0:32:09.600 the shoes. I mean, that's how things work with you know, 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:12.440 both our financial system. You know what, what is it 0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:15.480 traveling anywhere? It's the same deal. It's a treat. You know. 0:32:15.520 --> 0:32:18.000 They assume everyone's a criminal until you prove that you're not. 0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:21.160 And it's like it's it's these kinds of systems, in 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:24.000 my view, build a society that is not uh, you know, 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:25.600 it's not the kind of society I want to live 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:27.440 in the future. I want to build a society where, 0:32:27.600 --> 0:32:29.600 you know, you assume most people are good and most 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:31.520 people are nice, and you know, you don't assume that 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:34.360 people are gonna misuse the shoes to kill people and 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:36.840 you know things like that. Okay, So UM, so that 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:38.560 you were talking about with the coin shuffle and the 0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:41.840 coin joint and basically we're breaking that history so there's 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:45.360 nothing to be traced back and it doesn't cause harm 0:32:45.400 --> 0:32:47.760 to everybody else, right, So I was kind of giving 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:51.360 the example that, UM, recently we saw bitmax they have 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:54.400 to capture k y C you know, your customer on everybody, 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:57.280 and then they accidentally sent customer data out or we've 0:32:57.320 --> 0:32:59.680 seen like with Experience, they were hacked and all those 0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:03.360 people data got hacked. And so I'm really putting the 0:33:03.360 --> 0:33:08.680 people at risk to potentially catch one percent of malicious actors. UM. 0:33:08.960 --> 0:33:10.320 And I was just kind of saying, that's kind of 0:33:10.360 --> 0:33:13.120 like the original ideology I think of the cipher punks 0:33:13.160 --> 0:33:16.760 right to um not have to capture more information than 0:33:16.800 --> 0:33:19.080 you need and so UM, I like that initiative that 0:33:19.120 --> 0:33:21.800 you guys are doing. Yeah, and I think it's I 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:24.800 think it's important to uh, you know, to to build 0:33:24.840 --> 0:33:28.080 systems where you're you're not taking custody of people's data. 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:30.800 It's just it's just a better way to build the 0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.960 infrastructure so that at no point can you know, somebody 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:36.959 put screws to me and having you know ruined, you know, 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.160 ruin your personal information, or have people you know identity 0:33:40.560 --> 0:33:43.640 you know, steal your identity. Yeah. So, I mean, I 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:45.240 like a lot of the stuff that you guys are doing. 0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:49.080 I'm curious, is how how do you look at it? UM? 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:51.160 Is it kind of like a competition to see who 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.160 can build the best product out there? Or you know, 0:33:54.400 --> 0:33:55.600 is it is it kind of are you taking an 0:33:55.600 --> 0:33:57.760 approach like almost like with your decks, were like, hey, 0:33:57.800 --> 0:33:59.400 we're doing what we're doing, but we're also doing it 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.920 for the good of the community. Well, I think that 0:34:03.120 --> 0:34:06.080 the pattern with to say bitcoin, what bitcoin did is 0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:10.840 bitcoin UH removed the oracle of time stampers. You know, 0:34:11.080 --> 0:34:12.760 normally used to used to have go to a bank 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:15.480 and they would be the the official time stamper of 0:34:15.480 --> 0:34:18.520 transactions and that's just how it was. And everywhere else 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:20.319 that you went to get have time stamping done, there 0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:22.239 was one person who did it, and they turned time 0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:25.680 stamping into a game. We turned decred at its launch, 0:34:25.760 --> 0:34:29.920 turned UH turned um voting into a game. So we 0:34:29.960 --> 0:34:32.360 turned decision making into a game, or instead of it 0:34:32.400 --> 0:34:35.000 just being me making all the decisions as the project lead, 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:38.880 we collectively make decisions together. And then you know the 0:34:38.920 --> 0:34:42.120 decks is uh making a fairer game out of the 0:34:42.160 --> 0:34:45.279 exchange process. So you know, the exchange process is one 0:34:45.280 --> 0:34:47.719 way right now and you know our our our vision 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:49.760 is to turn it into a fairer game in the future. 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:53.160 And I expect that. You know, it's fair for you 0:34:53.239 --> 0:34:56.040 and your viewers to expect more of that kind of 0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:59.440 material out of decred whether everyone else benefits or not. 0:35:00.000 --> 0:35:02.520 You know, there's there's a path that we take and 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:04.920 we remove oracles. If you get in our way and 0:35:05.000 --> 0:35:08.520 cause this grief, we will we will engineer you out 0:35:08.520 --> 0:35:10.719 of the equation and so and and I don't mean 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:12.920 that is like a veiled threat, uh, you know, a 0:35:12.920 --> 0:35:16.480 physical violence. Uh, It's more it's more just a question 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.480 of how, you know, what kind of a society do 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:19.560 we want to live in. Do we want to live 0:35:19.560 --> 0:35:22.080 in a society where an old guy behind the desk 0:35:22.120 --> 0:35:24.480 can tell can you know, remove all of your your 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:26.600 your money from your account, or do we want to 0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:28.799 live in a society where where it's fairer and more 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:32.919 balanced than people are you know self software? Yeah, yeah 0:35:33.000 --> 0:35:35.920 for sure. Um. Now, one last thing I want to 0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:37.799 kind of get into is just um, you you kind 0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:40.320 of mentioned how the market cap is pretty small today 0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:43.239 compared to to bitcoin. I mean, it's obviously much larger 0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:44.560 than a lot of the other all coins that are 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:47.239 out there. Um. But but um, I know, you have 0:35:47.320 --> 0:35:50.719 this hybrid system of PW and POS. So how do 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:54.160 you look at withstanding attacks against the network, you know, 0:35:54.160 --> 0:35:57.280 seeing as you do have a smaller network or market cap, 0:35:57.760 --> 0:36:00.160 but you have this hybrid consensus. So like, do you 0:36:00.200 --> 0:36:02.719 guys look at that? Well, what it does is that 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.880 the hybrid consensus algorithm, beyond the fact that it puts 0:36:05.880 --> 0:36:08.480 the stakeholders in charge versus the miner, you know, as 0:36:08.520 --> 0:36:11.279 opposed to the miners in pure proof of work, it 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:13.800 also create makes it much more expensive to run majority 0:36:13.840 --> 0:36:16.040 attacks also known as fifty one percent attacks or the 0:36:16.160 --> 0:36:18.279 you know, the fine it's attack is that you know, 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:21.640 you can't mind a chain in private without the stakeholders. 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:24.000 So if you're going to try to you know, make 0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:27.040 a deep reorganization, which is typically the way that you're 0:36:27.080 --> 0:36:30.759 going to make a damaging majority attack, you need a 0:36:30.800 --> 0:36:33.160 really large segment of the steak, and you need a 0:36:33.200 --> 0:36:35.520 really large segment of the proof of you know, of 0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:38.759 the mining power. So it makes it roughly, you know, 0:36:38.920 --> 0:36:42.040 tend you know, tend to tend to thirty x more 0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:45.839 expensive to run a majority attack on decred than say 0:36:45.920 --> 0:36:48.880 on a pure proof of work cryptocurrency. So you know, 0:36:48.920 --> 0:36:51.520 sort of pounds or pound, we're ten x or or 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:54.960 or more resistant to double spend attacks than than a 0:36:55.040 --> 0:36:58.120 pure proof of work profer currency because they also have 0:36:58.239 --> 0:37:00.400 to stake the clients as well as as that have 0:37:00.440 --> 0:37:02.920 the hashing power. Yeah. Yeah, so you have to you 0:37:03.040 --> 0:37:05.319 have to buy tent of the town just to try 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:07.080 to burn it down. It's kind of you know, the 0:37:07.600 --> 0:37:10.320 scenario you end up in. So it's like the amount 0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:12.080 of you need a whole bunch of stakeholders will hold 0:37:12.080 --> 0:37:14.400 a bunch of coins to collude with the miners, and 0:37:14.440 --> 0:37:17.160 then what would happen is is if that, you know, 0:37:17.200 --> 0:37:19.080 an attack like that gets executed, the value of the 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.240 coins drop. So then it's like, why would anyone collude 0:37:21.239 --> 0:37:23.960 with the miners to do that? Yeah, So what do 0:37:24.000 --> 0:37:26.480 you see being the future of decred in the next 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:30.440 you know, one three five, ten years. I mean, are 0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.560 you looking to be just another payment coin? Are you 0:37:33.560 --> 0:37:35.359 looking to develop more into a platform that have other 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.960 applications built on it working. Where do you see the future? Well, 0:37:38.960 --> 0:37:41.880 what we're doing is is that you know, we're we're 0:37:41.880 --> 0:37:43.719 you know, we're following in the steps of Bitcoin in 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:45.640 the sense that we're focusing on being a store of 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:49.600 value first, um store, the store of value, proper value 0:37:49.600 --> 0:37:52.120 proposition is really what drives most of the value to 0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:54.800 say bitcoin. So I think it's fair that with that 0:37:55.000 --> 0:37:57.920 we continue along that path, the idea of being that 0:37:57.920 --> 0:38:02.000 we're trying to create a you know, a secure, adaptable 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:05.239 and sustainable store of value for the longer term. And 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:08.440 then once you know, as that proposition firms up and 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:11.319 more and more people recognize that, will will transition into 0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:13.920 becoming more of a medium of exchange and hey, if 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:16.720 we're lucky, even a unit of account. And the future 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:18.560 that I see is that some people see a winner 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:21.400 take all future to cryptocurrencies, like, oh, you know, if 0:38:21.440 --> 0:38:24.799 it isn't bitcoin, it's worthless. But you know, my view 0:38:24.800 --> 0:38:26.480 of it is it's going to be similar to banking 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:29.640 and many other domains that we see, which is that 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:34.120 there's gonna be several major you know, major players in 0:38:34.120 --> 0:38:36.360 the future and who they are and how they operate 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:38.799 as you know, that's what's being determined right now and 0:38:38.920 --> 0:38:40.879 you know, in in recent history, just in the past 0:38:40.920 --> 0:38:43.879 few years. So my hope is is that decred can 0:38:43.920 --> 0:38:46.400 continue to evolve in a way that that keeps it 0:38:46.440 --> 0:38:49.440 sufficiently cutting edge, that it acts as a strong store 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:51.920 of value, and that you know, it's one of the 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:54.319 few that's left standing at the end of it. And 0:38:54.360 --> 0:38:57.160 our hope is is that the sustainability that comes from 0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:00.600 the you know, the treasury funds is enough to really 0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:02.879 keep us kicking. And you know, there's a few things 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:05.000 that are coming. Uh. One of the things that's coming 0:39:05.080 --> 0:39:07.680 is that we're fully decentralizing the treasury. It is at 0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:10.560 least nominally centralized in terms of releasing payments. We're going 0:39:10.600 --> 0:39:13.919 to turn that payment release process into a fully decentralized 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:16.680 thing where people actually vote on the transactions. And then 0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:19.600 there's more privacy stuff on the pipeline. There's there's enough 0:39:19.600 --> 0:39:21.600 of it to you know, probably keep us busy for 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.960 six to twelve months to really sort of close all 0:39:23.960 --> 0:39:28.640 the all the gaps. Yeah, cool, great, well, it's a 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:30.719 lot of information that we went through. But I love 0:39:30.760 --> 0:39:33.719 the focus that you guys are taking on decentralization and 0:39:33.760 --> 0:39:36.719 privacy and uh and really pushing that forward. I mean, 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:38.479 it's just something that we need. We're seeing it all 0:39:38.520 --> 0:39:40.880 around the world right now with Hong Kong and China, 0:39:41.239 --> 0:39:44.040 and it's just we need to push back against that tide. 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:45.799 So I love to see that. I know you have 0:39:45.840 --> 0:39:48.280 a bunch of good information that you update pretty regularly 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:50.680 on the dcred website, Like you have a pretty good 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.080 blog that's there. Where else do people go to learn 0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:57.080 or keep up with the project for yourself? So the uh, 0:39:57.120 --> 0:39:59.719 the revolution will not be centralized, but our chat but 0:39:59.840 --> 0:40:02.400 our chat platform is so uh you can go to 0:40:02.480 --> 0:40:05.520 chat dot decred dot org. Most of us, who are 0:40:05.560 --> 0:40:09.280 you know, project contractors were on Matrix, but we Bridge, 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:13.480 Discord and Slack, and I believe we also have some Telegram, 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:15.440 so we we we cover a whole bunch of different 0:40:15.480 --> 0:40:18.960 platforms for our communications. And then in terms of learning more, 0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:20.960 if you're interested in learning more about you know, the 0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:23.200 details of things that we discussed on here, you can 0:40:23.200 --> 0:40:26.680 go to docs dot decred dot org and uh, you know, 0:40:26.719 --> 0:40:28.520 for everything else so that you can you can hit 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:30.600 us up on chats and and we can we can 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:34.359 redirect you where we need to be. Yeah, awesome, Well Jake, 0:40:34.400 --> 0:40:36.440 I appreciate you taking the time to explain that to us. 0:40:36.880 --> 0:40:41.200 Um really interesting stuff and and thank you thanks marking 0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:43.600 for them. Hey, if you like this episode of the 0:40:43.600 --> 0:40:46.960 Market Disruptors podcast, please help us take this to the 0:40:47.000 --> 0:40:49.480 top of the podcast charts. Just please do me a 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:53.440 favor and rate, review and subscribe. Taking fifteen seconds to 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:55.680 just leave a quick review goes a long way and 0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.799 helping us reach more people and disrupt born markets. I 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.279 really appreciate you listening and I'll see you next time 0:41:01.400 --> 0:41:02.880 on the Market Instructor's podcast.