Speaker 1: Quest Left Show is a production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2: All Right, y'all, this is a big one. All right.
Speaker 1: So every year doing Black History Month, we honor the
Speaker 1: innovators and the cultural architects, and today is no different.
Speaker 1: For the past six decades, I will say that our
Speaker 1: guests has been an amazing, powerful force in music. Definitely
Speaker 1: an influence in my life and how I hear things. Basically,
Speaker 1: our guest is one of the musical delegates, the musical
Speaker 1: forces from Memphis that we don't talk about enough.
Speaker 2: We do not talk about.
Speaker 1: Memphis is such a force of music that it rarely
Speaker 1: gets the.
Speaker 2: Light that it deserves.
Speaker 1: And as a member of the legendary band the bar Kas,
Speaker 1: you know, you know these songs from soul Finger to
Speaker 1: Son of Shaft to Holy Ghosts, especially Holy Ghosts, which incidentally,
Speaker 1: I think Holy ghost is one of the best examples
Speaker 1: of giving the drummer some that excited an eight year
Speaker 1: old questlove when he first heard that song. He's both
Speaker 1: a member of the R and B, the Memphis Rock
Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame blending in and even then
Speaker 1: that's reductive because if you listen to the early work
Speaker 1: of their out like their level of rock excitement. It
Speaker 1: was pretty much like no other band that you would
Speaker 1: come across in that period of course, collaborating with legends
Speaker 1: like the Great Otis Redding, with Isaac Hayes, touring the world,
Speaker 1: spreading the funk. He's been mentioned in many aqls. So
Speaker 1: shout out to Jimmy jam Hello, I want to welcome
Speaker 1: the leader of the Barcads, James Alexander, to the Quest
Speaker 1: Love Show.
Speaker 2: Welcome, sir, how are you? What's going on? Man? How
Speaker 2: are you? I had to stay up all night to
Speaker 2: get here? Man?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say I appreciate you. Right now
Speaker 1: as we tape, New York is being threatened with as
Speaker 1: I here describe something deeper than a Nor'easter, as they're
Speaker 1: telling me. But yet you made it here on your own.
Speaker 1: I know that we've been talking for the last couple
Speaker 1: of years about you coming on the show, right again,
Speaker 1: You've been mentioned a lot, and now the time has come,
Speaker 1: and I thank you for coming here.
Speaker 2: I sure, man. All right, So we're going to try
Speaker 2: to get through your life from soup to nuts.
Speaker 1: I do want what I call or derv So I
Speaker 1: will start with this question of all of your barca.
Speaker 2: Songs, which is your most favorite. That's a good one, now, dude,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, you know, well, your favorite
Speaker 2: to play bass on, my favorite to play bass. So
Speaker 2: would probably still be soul Fingers, believe it or not.
Speaker 2: Soul Finger really yeah, I mean maybe you would understand this.
Speaker 2: Soul Finger is just it's a song that's very near
Speaker 2: and dear to me because in the process, you know,
Speaker 2: groups sent tapes in to record comports and stuff or whatever.
Speaker 2: But see, back in the day, we had to audition live.
Speaker 2: So what happened is still be that way right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so we were playing at a nightclub illegally of course,
Speaker 2: because we were like, were underage. Yeah, how old were you?
Speaker 2: Sixteen years old? Were they charting back then? For real?
Speaker 2: For real? Yeah, of course they were charting like you
Speaker 2: had to be over, Yeah, you had to be over.
Speaker 2: And see, Memphis had the vice squad. The vice squad
Speaker 2: is like it's like ice. Okay, of that. Musicians now
Speaker 2: they come in Now they come in to a nightclub
Speaker 2: and they check everybody in the nightclub. Check that out.
Speaker 2: These if you're on the age, they didn't, they didn't
Speaker 2: take you. The only thing now they need to take
Speaker 2: you to jail. They just call your parents and tell
Speaker 2: them to come pick your manners up and bring them home.
Speaker 2: But anyway, okay, we're playing in this nightclub and we're
Speaker 2: playing behind this guy by the name of Norman West
Speaker 2: who's one of the members of the Soldierldren and we
Speaker 2: planned a song by JJ Jackson call but it's all right.
Speaker 2: So every night, now, mind you, you have to say
Speaker 2: that we some youngsters. Every night we get to a
Speaker 2: certain portion of the song and we do for a
Speaker 2: lack of world or breakdown. But you know, sixteen years old,
Speaker 2: we didn't know what he was doing, but we did
Speaker 2: know this. We started looking around at each other and say,
Speaker 2: oh damn, this is something here. So we remember that.
Speaker 2: So we had to go on an audition that Stacks
Speaker 2: Records and we auditioned Steve Crauffer was the A and
Speaker 2: R guy. Okay, so we auditioned for him, and he said,
Speaker 2: em I appreciate y'all coming up in an audition, but
Speaker 2: you know, y'a just y'all don't quite have it. And
Speaker 2: so you know, bust out a little bubble. Wait, I
Speaker 2: tell you what, well, let you come back and do
Speaker 2: it again. So we came back the second time. He
Speaker 2: said no. But as we were leaving the second time,
Speaker 2: a little short guy, little white guy by the name
Speaker 2: of Jim Stewart. So he said, hey, man, what what's
Speaker 2: going on here? I said, we just was up here auditions.
Speaker 2: Who are y'all? We're just a little bad, he said,
Speaker 2: I tell you what I saw everything that's been happening.
Speaker 2: So with y'all come back up in audition for me.
Speaker 2: Come on a Sunday. The studio is closed. Nobody be
Speaker 2: here with me and y'all. So we came. So we
Speaker 2: got to the studio and we started playing something. He said,
Speaker 2: what is that? We don't I mean, well, man, we
Speaker 2: don't know, we don't know what. We don't know what
Speaker 2: the hell we're doing. We're just doing some shit. Okay,
Speaker 2: you didn't name the songs or anything. We didn't.
Speaker 1: Now, when you're auditioning, what's the repertoire? How long do
Speaker 1: you have to make an impression? Is it one song,
Speaker 1: two songs? Or for us, we.
Speaker 2: Just played a little vibe. And because we had planned
Speaker 2: this little vibe and the club every night, we said, shit,
Speaker 2: we just started off with that little vibe. So he said,
Speaker 2: what the hell is that? We don't know. But anyway,
Speaker 2: he ran up in the control room. You know, it
Speaker 2: wasn't no SSL, no leaves, nothing, a little boyed about
Speaker 2: like this. You know. In fact, he had one of
Speaker 2: the first four track scully tape machines, you know, thing
Speaker 2: that the Beatles called Roger Peppers. Anyway, Yeah, he didn't
Speaker 2: even have a talkback button, so he just gave us
Speaker 2: a signal. She played from the top. Our trumpet player
Speaker 2: came up with this little nursery rhyme horn line. But yeah,
Speaker 2: and the drummer hit a break and it was on.
Speaker 2: Then he said come up and listen to it. So
Speaker 2: thirty minutes later we had soul finger. So that is
Speaker 2: the definitive version of soul finger. That's it. Where did
Speaker 2: the kids come from? A person that's been on your show?
Speaker 2: It was his idea, David Porter. Really that was a
Speaker 2: convenience store across the street from from Stacks. He went
Speaker 2: over to the convenience store and got a case of
Speaker 2: Coca colas, you know, the wooden case, twenty four balls
Speaker 2: on the case. Oh god, don't tell me about to
Speaker 2: pay off of Solda. We didn't even have a ball
Speaker 2: open them. So what he told to do the guy
Speaker 2: at the store just take the ball over it and
Speaker 2: open it. So got the kids from the neighborhood, put
Speaker 2: them around one mic and said I'm going to direct you.
Speaker 2: So when I direct you, you say Soul Figure, right,
Speaker 2: And that's how it came out. That's how it came about.
Speaker 1: And you paid those kids in soda a soda ten
Speaker 1: house Coca Cola. Okay, So I have a follow up
Speaker 1: question for Soul Figure because I've had two other guests
Speaker 1: on the show give their version of a song that
Speaker 1: sort of sparked a controversial sit you and I'm speaking
Speaker 1: of Ray Parker Jr.
Speaker 2: And Huey Lewis. Now, this is all I'm saying. I
Speaker 2: believe that the.
Speaker 1: Story was when they were making Ghostbusters, they wanted Huey
Speaker 1: Lewis's I Want a new drug in the movie somehow,
Speaker 1: I guess whoever got the message to hue about this
Speaker 1: movie whatever his Ghostbusters that sounds like dumb No. Rejected,
Speaker 1: and then they came back again. You know, for real,
Speaker 1: can you clear the song? He's like a ghost film
Speaker 1: that sounds dumb.
Speaker 2: No.
Speaker 1: So they asked him, I think three or four times,
Speaker 1: and he was like, adamantly, no, so then they gave
Speaker 1: up went.
Speaker 2: To Ray Parker Jr.
Speaker 1: Now you know, and we're gonna get into this later.
Speaker 1: I'm no stranger to derivative ideas. In other words, they
Speaker 1: play a song, you listen to the song, then you
Speaker 1: flip the song, and then it's a new song.
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming that's what.
Speaker 1: Ray Parker did, which was okay, well I'll make something
Speaker 1: that's in the area close to it. And of course
Speaker 1: Uey Lewis sued Ray Parker Jr. I think successfully, and
Speaker 1: they never I think part of the clause was that
Speaker 1: they were not allowed to talk about the case. But
Speaker 1: obviously hue Lewis felt some sort of way that you know,
Speaker 1: this song is my song. But when my dad and
Speaker 1: I first heard Ghostbusters, my dad goes to the record
Speaker 1: fleet says, that's nothing but an updated version of this,
Speaker 1: and he plays me, Oh, she.
Speaker 2: Should have told me that. You wait, my dear friend,
Speaker 2: I didn't. I would do that.
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying that when you heard Ghostbusters at
Speaker 1: any time, did you say, hey, wait a minute, No, okay, sorry,
Speaker 1: I wasn't trying to put you in That's all I
Speaker 1: wanted to I would you know, I would do that.
Speaker 2: The write no way, all right.
Speaker 1: I want to know how music entered your life. What
Speaker 1: was your first musical memory.
Speaker 2: Well, in Memphis, there's a place called Handy Park downtown
Speaker 2: on Bill Street. Unbeknowns to me, my mom took me
Speaker 2: down on Bill Street to Handy Park. I had to
Speaker 2: be I don't know, six or seven years old, I
Speaker 2: can't remember exactly, but she took me downtown to Handy
Speaker 2: Park to see bb King and Bobby Blue Bland and
Speaker 2: they had taken two flatbed trucks, backed them together and
Speaker 2: made a stage out of it. That was my first
Speaker 2: recollection of the music. Well, what happened that particular day,
Speaker 2: unbeknowns to me, it kind of got into my DNA.
Speaker 2: I didn't know it at the time, but you know,
Speaker 2: I took a liking too, the whole scene, the whole thing,
Speaker 2: the whole music thing. It didn't hurt that my brother
Speaker 2: was a big jazz buff, not a musician or anything
Speaker 2: like that, but just collecting definitely, you know, Cold Trane,
Speaker 2: Miles Davis, they lonely just monk all of that stuff.
Speaker 2: Paul Chambers, which, yeah, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: So you're growing up in a city that also has
Speaker 1: given us Aretha Franklin, Marie White, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis,
Speaker 1: Johnny Cash, Elvis.
Speaker 2: Presley, Al Green.
Speaker 1: Even in the musical ecosystem, are you running into an
Speaker 1: unknown David Porter and unknown Isaac Hayes, like talk about
Speaker 1: just the ecosystem of Memphis, Like how small is the
Speaker 1: city in terms of it's musical community, And who were
Speaker 1: you sort of socially interacting with before you became an artist, Like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I knew that when we were twelve years
Speaker 1: old in the same school.
Speaker 2: Well, I was in the marching band. I was in
Speaker 2: the you start in junior high school, I was in
Speaker 2: the marching band. You're not gonna believe this. I always
Speaker 2: wanted to play drums. But what happened is I went
Speaker 2: to the band room and the band director said, you know,
Speaker 2: I want you to stand up state your navy James Alexander.
Speaker 2: What do you want to play? I want to play drums.
Speaker 2: I have my drum sticks and everything right. He said, well,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, we don't need any more drummers, but we
Speaker 2: have over there for tuba players. And I said, oh shit,
Speaker 2: tuba players because back then they didn't have the fiberglass tubers.
Speaker 2: All the tubes were metal. Okay, okay, but I wanted
Speaker 2: to be in the band so bad, so I said, shit,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, this looks like this is my
Speaker 2: only shot. So started out with the tuba. So with
Speaker 2: the tuba, you know, he suggested that I take the
Speaker 2: tuber home, you know, so I could learn how to
Speaker 2: play it. So, but the bell was so big. You know,
Speaker 2: the bus that I used to ride home, the bell
Speaker 2: couldn't fit inside the bus. So I had to walk
Speaker 2: home with the tuba heavy ones. It took me about
Speaker 2: maybe thirty minutes to walk home. But all walking home,
Speaker 2: you know this big tuba. You know, kids and stuff
Speaker 2: throwing paper all up in the barrel of the Tubuh
Speaker 2: you got that big ass yeah tuba and all of that.
Speaker 1: You didn't have a case. There were no tu ks, No,
Speaker 1: it was no tube case. You just had to carry it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like I'm at a parade and I'm just walking
Speaker 2: by myself, so you know, with some friends they throwing paper. Anyway,
Speaker 2: That's how I had to get the tuber home. And
Speaker 2: then when I get it home, you know, my brother,
Speaker 2: which was like seventeen years older than me, I'm trying
Speaker 2: to learn how to play the tube to him. It
Speaker 2: sounded horrible. Cut that cut that rag, it out, cut
Speaker 2: all that noise out. But you know, I just I
Speaker 2: kept at it when I was playing football too, I mean,
Speaker 2: and I kept at the tuba, and I started getting,
Speaker 2: you know, pretty good at it. And then they had
Speaker 2: a thing in West Tennessee called if if you do
Speaker 2: good in West Tennessee, you get invited to bail my
Speaker 2: School of Music, which or people are the School of
Speaker 2: Music which now is part of Vanderbilt, to study, you know,
Speaker 2: with some other kids. So there were only two black
Speaker 2: kids from West Tennessee to go to Nashville and study,
Speaker 2: you know with all of the kids from all over Tennessee.
Speaker 2: Me and another guy. He played two also, we were
Speaker 2: the only black kids in the whole state for the
Speaker 2: music summer camp. And by then I had master the
Speaker 2: tuba and all of that, and some kind of way
Speaker 2: I got interested in base. So I started out on upright. Okay,
Speaker 2: one of my teachers that bought her son an upright
Speaker 2: and she came to me one day and she said,
Speaker 2: you know, how about this upright for my son. He's
Speaker 2: not going to get into it. Do you want it?
Speaker 2: I said, sure, So she just gave it to me. Now,
Speaker 2: mind you that particular upright right now, it's worth about
Speaker 2: eight grand. She probably paid maybe four or five hundred
Speaker 2: dollars for it. But it's a blonde German made upright day,
Speaker 2: you know with the lfo's, I mean beautiful. This This
Speaker 2: is a backstory to that. Y'all don't know who you
Speaker 2: want to be telling you. The backstory is I stayed
Speaker 2: at home with my parents, and by this time, you know,
Speaker 2: I was going in and out of town. It was
Speaker 2: set up in the dining room on the you know
Speaker 2: what's on the stand. So I come home one day,
Speaker 2: where's my base? I mean asking my brother, right, I
Speaker 2: don't know? I said, Man, where's my base? I said,
Speaker 2: you just sits in that corner right there, and he
Speaker 2: kep saying I don't know. So I had to go
Speaker 2: south of Memphis on him. Where's my email base? Okay,
Speaker 2: where's my base? Oh? Man? Oh man? You know I
Speaker 2: forgot to tell you? Man. Uh I took it to
Speaker 2: the pawn shop, man, and uh, I said, man, what
Speaker 2: let's call the pawn shop right now? Of course, cause
Speaker 2: you know with pawn shop, if you don't pay on
Speaker 2: your instrument, you know, in a certain time they'll sell it.
Speaker 2: So we called they had sold my base, like seven
Speaker 2: hundred dollars or some shit like that. Man, I was
Speaker 2: ready to I was actually was ready to kill my
Speaker 2: own brother. Why did he do that? Unbeitniced to me
Speaker 2: he had a gambling problem. You know, I don't know
Speaker 2: if you know anything about Memphs. You know across the
Speaker 2: bridge or in West Wemster they have the dog track
Speaker 2: back then the dog track, you know, so you know
Speaker 2: they had this big book you play the dogs every night.
Speaker 2: He was going to the dog track every day, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to hit and you know, got into a jam
Speaker 2: part of my base. So I was rather kill him,
Speaker 2: but I was. I was hurt more than anything. So
Speaker 2: just you know, I started crying and shit, and you
Speaker 2: know I was hurt. You know, I said, wait, manute,
Speaker 2: you know we got to do this. So before he
Speaker 2: passed away, you know, we kind of like kissed the
Speaker 2: maid up. I said, you know this is a lifelong beef,
Speaker 2: this is yeah. That was yeah, oh man. Yeah, my
Speaker 2: dad went to a pawnshop. My dad worked at a
Speaker 2: place called Firestone. If you don't anythink about Memphis, if
Speaker 2: you work at Firestone International Harvester, all those places. You know,
Speaker 2: that's a good job. So, unbeknownst to me, my dad
Speaker 2: went to this pawn shop and put a harmony base
Speaker 2: and amplify in the Layoway. So I didn't know that
Speaker 2: he was doing that, and he didn't tell me about
Speaker 2: it until he went to get it out. So he said,
Speaker 2: come on, want you to rat somewhere with me, And
Speaker 2: he took me down there and he got it out.
Speaker 2: I think the whole base and the app I think
Speaker 2: was about it wasn't even two hundred dollars. I still
Speaker 2: got the base, but the amp called foul one night
Speaker 2: got you got what Jimmy Hendracy.
Speaker 1: Okay, So me starting elementary school in the seventies, I
Speaker 1: grew up in a time period where if you were
Speaker 1: a specialty student, then your parents sent you to like
Speaker 1: music school whatever.
Speaker 2: But you know, later I.
Speaker 1: Found out that in the late sixties, especially with like
Speaker 1: the Nixon administration, they started taking like music programs out
Speaker 1: of school. But basically, to hear you say it is
Speaker 1: it almost as common as lunch period. If you're in school,
Speaker 1: whether you have natural music talent or not, you're gonna
Speaker 1: learn an instrument and you will eventually catch it on
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: That was mostly the case, But it's all about the interest.
Speaker 2: What happened is back in those days, believe it or not,
Speaker 2: we had, for lack of a better word, we had mentors.
Speaker 2: So if, like our band director, if he saw you
Speaker 2: had a interest, a lot of times didn't have to
Speaker 2: show that much interest, but if he thought you, you know,
Speaker 2: wanted to do something, they would kind of help you
Speaker 2: facilitate get you on track to doing it. And so
Speaker 2: fortunately my band director, my first band director, he kind
Speaker 2: of like took an interest in it, and you know,
Speaker 2: we'd have a regular band practice, you know where you
Speaker 2: learned your scales and all of that stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and then we would have after the band practice practice,
Speaker 2: you know where you just learned some other stuff. So
Speaker 2: that was just the whole big thing. And I'm grateful
Speaker 2: to grow up around a lot of talented folks. You
Speaker 2: was Bill Street for a tourist or was that? Was
Speaker 2: it for real? Well? When I came up, Bill Street
Speaker 2: was more like you know, prostitution, you know, drugs and music.
Speaker 2: There was a club in the Bill Street area called
Speaker 2: Club Handy. It was run by Sunbeam Mitchell. Sunbeam Mitchell
Speaker 2: had a club and then he had in his club,
Speaker 2: he had like five or six rooms. So when musicians
Speaker 2: come through, there was not I mean, you know, people
Speaker 2: have to understand the Memphis. Memphis were very segregated back
Speaker 2: in those days. I mean, you know, you couldn't even
Speaker 2: stay in certain hotels. You couldn't drink at certain water fountains.
Speaker 2: I mean you got white water fountains, the colored water fountains.
Speaker 2: But Sunbeam provided when musicians come through, you know, some
Speaker 2: of the some of the greats, he would provide them
Speaker 2: a room and uh, you know, in a bowl of chili. Okay. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So with people coming through and all that stuff like that,
Speaker 2: you know, and you aspiring to be in the music business,
Speaker 2: or you go and try to meet some of these people,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I want to know where you enter the Barcads. So
Speaker 1: they started in sixty two, did they not?
Speaker 2: The Barcas started around sixty sixty, Yeah, around that time,
Speaker 2: sixty two sixty three, somewhere in there. Okay.
Speaker 1: Now, I was always under the impression because I would
Speaker 1: also see credits on Stax records for the Marquis. So
Speaker 1: for some reason I always thought that you guys started
Speaker 1: off that first, and men sort of morphed into the
Speaker 1: bar case. But were the Marquees a whole the whole
Speaker 1: other group. Okay, so it had nothing to do They
Speaker 1: had nothing to do with the Barcas, Okay, got it.
Speaker 2: The Barcas was a group that some guys from several
Speaker 2: different high schools that started emerging. Actually, the drummer that
Speaker 2: played in the band with me it started the group.
Speaker 2: It wasn't called the Barcades at that point. They used
Speaker 2: to rehearse every Saturday. What happened was the bass player
Speaker 2: for them at that particular point, he could play bass,
Speaker 2: but he didn't own a bass. Oh so James Alexander
Speaker 2: owned the base cause my dad had bought me a base. Remember,
Speaker 2: so I used to ride my bike to their rehearsal
Speaker 2: every Saturday so he could use my bass so that
Speaker 2: they could rehearse. This one particular said that I rode
Speaker 2: to their rehearsal okay, and he wasn't there. So they said, hey, man,
Speaker 2: were ready to start this rehearsal. Basically us not here.
Speaker 2: So who's gonna play bass? They said, you? I said,
Speaker 2: but there's one problem. They said, what's the problem? I
Speaker 2: can't play and so the guitar player said, well, you
Speaker 2: know what, I'll show you enough to, you know, to
Speaker 2: get through rehearsals. You know what I mean to be
Speaker 2: quite unrest I was fucking up bad, but he said,
Speaker 2: we're gonna get you through this.
Speaker 1: Stylistically, how jarringly different was adjusting to electric bass as
Speaker 1: opposed to the upright base.
Speaker 2: A lot of adjustment for me because my instruction always
Speaker 2: would tell me, you know, he had this thing you
Speaker 2: hit hit me on my knuckles because I didn't. I wasn't.
Speaker 2: I wasn't doing my technique correctly. The fingering, the finger
Speaker 2: I wasn't doing none of that right. But you know,
Speaker 2: I just had to do it however I could do it.
Speaker 2: It was a big difference.
Speaker 1: Now that you are getting an interest in the base,
Speaker 1: who are you listening to? Who you trying to pattern
Speaker 1: yourself after?
Speaker 2: I was basically listening to the radio, and at an
Speaker 2: early age up nonst with my parents, I started slipping
Speaker 2: in clubs, slipping in clubs, and there was a guy
Speaker 2: by the name of a Cleave Shields, better known as Frog.
Speaker 2: He played with a band called Jean Bowlex Miller. I
Speaker 2: was listening to him. I was listening to another guy
Speaker 2: by the name of Robert McGee who played upright, and
Speaker 2: I ended up taking some bass lessons from him. Those
Speaker 2: are the two guys I was listening to and when
Speaker 2: I started to learn how to play a little bit.
Speaker 2: Robert McGee. They had a thing in Memphis called Blue Monday. Okay,
Speaker 2: and Robert McGee is I mean it was a great
Speaker 2: bass player. But he would go to sleep on stage
Speaker 2: while playing. I mean he's still playing. He goes to
Speaker 2: sleep so heavy moonshine or something. So, so what happened
Speaker 2: is he said, I got I got an ideal. Man.
Speaker 2: You know, it was a four hour gig, right, So
Speaker 2: he would play the first part of it, and then
Speaker 2: he said, man, once you come and then you know,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna work you in. And you played the second part.
Speaker 2: So the band was Ben Branch, Ben Branch, Yes, Ben Branch,
Speaker 2: the Ben Branch off versing push, yes, Jack, all of that.
Speaker 2: The last person that spoke to you before. He So
Speaker 2: they had a Monday night thing every Monday night, and
Speaker 2: he was playing the base and then he played the
Speaker 2: first half that I come in and play the second half.
Speaker 2: The band was fine with like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: not really, but he said, he said, hey, I'm leaving.
Speaker 2: I got to go to.
Speaker 1: Sleep, because he go to sleep on stage messing up.
Speaker 1: Was it because he was working all day or.
Speaker 2: Yes, because he was a band director in the daytime
Speaker 2: and then you know, playing gigs at night and stuff
Speaker 2: in a school teacher too, so on top of all
Speaker 2: of them, so he was tired. So what happened is
Speaker 2: one of my first experiences being Brunch called out a song.
Speaker 2: He said, start us five flats one two, five flats five,
Speaker 2: five flats. I know it's D flat, but I said
Speaker 2: what man, You know, I didn't know what the hell
Speaker 2: to do, you know what I'm saying. But one thing
Speaker 2: that I learned early on in my teachings, especially the
Speaker 2: bass player. He said, man, look, if you don't know
Speaker 2: a song, stand close to the keyboard player and watch
Speaker 2: his left hand, and you were probably you know, you
Speaker 2: would learn the changes and all that stuff like that.
Speaker 2: And I did it. So I fumbled through it, but
Speaker 2: I got through it. And then he right after that,
Speaker 2: he called sat the doll. I said, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, all right, you got the one song.
Speaker 2: Now I got to do this. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I thought there's a go play some twelve bar blues
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. I could get through that, right,
Speaker 2: but they playing standards, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So you jump right into the lake of jazz, not
Speaker 1: blue all of that. Yeah, all of that.
Speaker 2: So I mean, you know, and I'm happy to say
Speaker 2: that gradually I started getting a little better at it. Well,
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, you stood in a Bark's rehearsal
Speaker 2: because the other bass player wasn't there, but right, you
Speaker 2: are still a Bark. So what happened to that other
Speaker 2: bass player? Like he just he just know. What happened
Speaker 2: is the last time I went to the rehearsal and
Speaker 2: brought my bass because because I'm used to bringing my
Speaker 2: bass to the rehearsal, opened the case up, tuning it
Speaker 2: up and giving it to him so they could start
Speaker 2: the rehearsal so you could tune it. So you were
Speaker 2: a tech.
Speaker 1: You were a bass tech technical what we would call
Speaker 1: it bass tech now, Like yeah, I mean, but I mean,
Speaker 1: let's be, let's be I went.
Speaker 2: Tuning it up that good because it was it was
Speaker 2: still not all the way into him. But anyway, so
Speaker 2: what happened is I'm gonna give the bass player of
Speaker 2: my bass right, and they the guys, man, what are
Speaker 2: you doing? I said, I'm giving so y'all can start rehearsal.
Speaker 2: They said, well, guess what. I said, what he's not
Speaker 2: the bass player anymore? Well, who is the bass player?
Speaker 2: They said, you? I said, but there's one thing that
Speaker 2: y'all should know, and they said what is that? I
Speaker 2: got it. And so the guitar player, I mean the
Speaker 2: guitar player. Would you know, on some songs he played guitar.
Speaker 2: Other songs he would play bass. So he really wanted
Speaker 2: to play guitar, so he taught me a lot of
Speaker 2: stuff on base. So how many months did it take
Speaker 2: you to adjust? And really I would say fair about
Speaker 2: six months? Okay, okay, about six months. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: I wasn't great, but I was good enough to get
Speaker 2: through a three or four hour set, you know what.
Speaker 1: So one of the pioneering things about the original iteration
Speaker 1: of the Barcas, which also like another Memphis group, the MG's,
Speaker 1: is that this is an interracial band. I didn't know
Speaker 1: that the original keyboard player for the Barks was a
Speaker 1: white guy. So just that alone, how radical was that
Speaker 1: idea during that time period?
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing we tried to do is everybody
Speaker 2: was at different high schools, so we tried to get
Speaker 2: everybody to the same high school. So you got five
Speaker 2: black guys and this one white guy. He went to
Speaker 2: a dominantly white school. So what about he goes to
Speaker 2: his parents and say, look, I want to change and
Speaker 2: go to Booker T. Washington High School because my guys
Speaker 2: are there. His parents hit the freaking ceiling. Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: but I have to say he was a radical white boy.
Speaker 2: He said, I'm going anyway, you know, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: probably be in reform school or something, you know, but
Speaker 2: he said, and so they wasn't with it. But he
Speaker 2: changed from a predominantly white school to a predominantly black school.
Speaker 2: He was the only white kid in a predominantly black school,
Speaker 2: and the black people accepted him. I mean, he didn't
Speaker 2: have no issues. They didn't try to jump him, you know,
Speaker 2: after school or nothing like that. He had a black
Speaker 2: girlfriend the whole nine. He walking in, you know, walking
Speaker 2: into the projects. Hey Ronnie, what's going on, man? How
Speaker 2: you doing? You know? No problem in Memphis? In Memphis, Tennessee.
Speaker 2: In clubs, are you guys playing in?
Speaker 1: Are these segregated clubs are these like, what's the.
Speaker 2: The layout of what your gigs are like? We played
Speaker 2: predominantly black clubs, and then we also played predominantly white clubs.
Speaker 2: Now the white clubs. I remember a club that we played.
Speaker 2: Papa Willie was the house band. Willie Mitchell was the
Speaker 2: house band. And this club had a guardrail around the stage,
Speaker 2: so there was no way you could go out in
Speaker 2: the in the audience behind the drummer. There was a
Speaker 2: door that led to the parking lot.
Speaker 1: So on break in order to get on stage, you
Speaker 1: were just you're basically in a cell or a prison.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you come out on stage, so I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: people come up and wanted to talk to you, so
Speaker 2: they had to talk to you over the guardrail, you know,
Speaker 2: just a rode An fence around the stage.
Speaker 1: And that was purposely designed so that if black acts
Speaker 1: were hired, they weren't allowed.
Speaker 2: What you're recognizing with the patriots, you know, the people
Speaker 2: in the club man.
Speaker 1: The odd thing is that I kind of wish I
Speaker 1: have that system now, not for racial reasons, just yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I want to get up going stage, yeah
Speaker 1: and get out without any you know selfieh yeah, all right, No,
Speaker 1: I love my fan base.
Speaker 2: But but hey, but I tell you, I'll tell you what.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what happened one night at that particular club.
Speaker 2: Espresially had a private party at this club called the
Speaker 2: Manhattan Club. Right. I know, I'm skipping around, but by
Speaker 2: this time I was playing with a band called Isaac
Speaker 2: Hayes and the Do Dads, and I was a do Dad. Okay.
Speaker 2: We played this club for one year called the Plantation
Speaker 2: in in West Memphis. Unfortunate name. Yeah. We played from
Speaker 2: nine to three, okay, six nights a week while I
Speaker 2: was in high school. Okay for six hours.
Speaker 1: So when you're doing a residency like that, you're not
Speaker 1: playing six hours in a row, correct, Like what's the
Speaker 1: what's fifteen forty five minutes?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Doing that fifteen minute break? Is music in the air?
Speaker 1: Like do they have a juke box or something?
Speaker 2: A juke box? Okay? So yeah, Music's a constant, yeah,
Speaker 2: constantly going.
Speaker 1: Is it the same set six times at night or
Speaker 1: you're learning different so doing different songs, I mean it goes.
Speaker 2: You know, by this time, you know, you end up
Speaker 2: learning a lot of songs. Okay, I mean you know
Speaker 2: every now and then, uh, maybe in the hour one
Speaker 2: and hours five you might repeat a song or two, okay,
Speaker 2: but we had different songs. I mean, you know, I
Speaker 2: learned a lot of songs like the New Units of
Speaker 2: You and My Funny Valid I mean, you know, just
Speaker 2: all those songs then plus whatever songs were out then.
Speaker 1: You know, was this primarily well you said my Funny Valentine.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, those are ballots? Yeah, like during this
Speaker 1: period kids want to dance, do they not?
Speaker 2: Or yeah? Well these weren't kids, he was were grown
Speaker 2: people in the club there you go, Yeah, okay here grown.
Speaker 2: I mean you have to be twenty one to get
Speaker 2: in the club, got it. But we were under age,
Speaker 2: you know, getting in the club. We was in the club.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think Isaac may have at doing those times.
Speaker 2: He might have been in his early twenties. Got you
Speaker 2: all right? Sin finish? I interrupted your story. You went
Speaker 2: to an Elvis press league. Yeah, we went to Elvis. No,
Speaker 2: Elvis presst hired us to play a party. You know.
Speaker 2: Elvis was always big on like, for instance, if he
Speaker 2: go to amusement park or something like that, he would
Speaker 2: shut the whole amusement park down and just only somebody
Speaker 2: would be there with him and his cronies. Same thing
Speaker 2: with the club. If he if he did something at
Speaker 2: the club, shut the club down, Nobody deal with him
Speaker 2: and his cronies.
Speaker 1: Now when I watch footage of Elvis elsewhere, you know,
Speaker 1: girlsy chasing them, and it's like, yeah, chaos. Right, is
Speaker 1: he able to move in and out of Memphis like
Speaker 1: it's nothing because everyone knows him?
Speaker 2: Or no? I mean he's still he's still Evers person.
Speaker 2: He still got security all twenty four seven with him,
Speaker 2: got But we played this club. This is Isaac Cages
Speaker 2: and to do dads. I think Isaac charged them I
Speaker 2: want to say five hundred dollars and I think Isaac
Speaker 2: paid us like about forty dollars a piece or something
Speaker 2: like that. But after the thing, that man, you you
Speaker 2: still got this roll down fence. Right, So we walked
Speaker 2: out of the on the parking lot and come into
Speaker 2: the front interest of the club because he wanted to
Speaker 2: be up close and personal with us. And you know,
Speaker 2: Evers was tall, right, you know, very handsome guy. I
Speaker 2: mean very polite. I mean, yes, ma'am, no, ma'am. Type
Speaker 2: of guy I've got you, very contrary to what people
Speaker 2: say about him, anyway, he said, man, I really enjoyed myself.
Speaker 2: I had a good time. And then you know, he
Speaker 2: went in his park. He put out a big water
Speaker 2: money and it was like six of us. No, maagine,
Speaker 2: I'll just made forty bucks for the gig. Right. He
Speaker 2: gave each one of us one hundred dollar bill and
Speaker 2: I said, shit, it's got like one one than I
Speaker 2: had right at the time. Well, I get it immediately
Speaker 2: when I got home, I gave it one hundred to
Speaker 2: my mom. Don't we always do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, all my money goes to my mom. During this
Speaker 1: time period, is it possible for you to be a
Speaker 1: local musician and make a living?
Speaker 2: Is it possible?
Speaker 1: Meaning okay, cats, I know, especially like if I talk
Speaker 1: to someone from Detroit or you know, in the Iron
Speaker 1: in the rust belt like or in Ohio, Indiana whatever.
Speaker 1: Most of the stories is now we work in the
Speaker 1: factories from eight am to four or five pm, and
Speaker 1: then we go home, and then we go to the
Speaker 1: bar that night, and then we'll play till one am
Speaker 1: and do the same thing over and over again because
Speaker 1: they need to make more money. Was it possible during
Speaker 1: this time period to be a full time musician? What
Speaker 1: is a good musician rate to survive and only be
Speaker 1: a musician, not doing anything else but to do music.
Speaker 2: Like what would you need to answer your question? It
Speaker 2: really kind of like what like that you Mostly everybody
Speaker 2: in the in the music community did something else besides music.
Speaker 2: For me, I basically owned the did music because you know,
Speaker 2: I was staying at home with my parents. Okay, so
Speaker 2: you know, as my dad used always say, you know,
Speaker 2: starting to get a little beside myself. You think you
Speaker 2: a man now bills? Yeah, so you know I got
Speaker 2: my first apartment. I was like seven. Thing. Okay, you
Speaker 2: were the man in the house then. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So like if I'm hiring you for a gig for
Speaker 1: Saturday night, in which I guess you're expected to play
Speaker 1: five to six hours, right, fair pay to you is
Speaker 1: forty fifty bucks or is that just the entire band?
Speaker 2: Like no, average was more like twenty five fifteen to
Speaker 2: twenty five.
Speaker 1: So for the whole band, they would just pay you
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty two hundred bucks for the night.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you got a gig and you had
Speaker 2: a band, like we had five or six piece bandy,
Speaker 2: if we got three hundred dollars, that was a big deal,
Speaker 2: got you? Okay? That was that was huge.
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to find out is, are
Speaker 1: you by this point having any dreams of, hey, we
Speaker 1: could take this higher, like maybe we can get a
Speaker 1: record deal, maybe we can tour the world, maybe we can.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. We weren't even thinking about that. We were
Speaker 2: just trying to see if we could get up to
Speaker 2: like one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars a week,
Speaker 2: we would be doing great. And back in those days
Speaker 2: because of the club scene. In those days, if you
Speaker 2: were pretty good, not for everybody, but that was kind
Speaker 2: of like possible to get up to that because you
Speaker 2: had them had a lot of clubs. I mean we
Speaker 2: had the Flamingo Room, which was downtown. You had Club
Speaker 2: Handy Gotcha. You had the Hippodrome, which you know that's
Speaker 2: where you know we played there. You had another club
Speaker 2: called the te Hee Club, you had the Man Had,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, there were clubs. It was like
Speaker 2: a situation. Any club you go in, you're gonna hear
Speaker 2: some you're gonna have some good ship, You're gonna hear
Speaker 2: some good stuff, you know.
Speaker 1: With their rival bands, Like who was your rival band
Speaker 1: at that moment.
Speaker 2: We didn't have a rival band at first, but we
Speaker 2: were kind of like, for lack of a better world,
Speaker 2: we were kind of like we ended up becoming the
Speaker 2: second string band at Stacks. Now, man, you this was
Speaker 2: after the plane crash, right, but we we didn't have
Speaker 2: a rival band, and we were fortunate enough for Booker
Speaker 2: T and the MG's, those guys man of Steve Cropper
Speaker 2: by the way, to kind of like take us under
Speaker 2: their wing, take us, take us under their wing.
Speaker 1: Steve never opened up even after he became established, Like,
Speaker 1: oh no, he won't even admit that.
Speaker 2: No, Steve, Steve was I mean, you know, I mean,
Speaker 2: I hope you don't come out of the gravy. But man,
Speaker 2: you know, you know you couldn't get his respect. You know,
Speaker 2: he couldn't get his respect. But I will tell you
Speaker 2: this when Jim Steward, because you know, back in those
Speaker 2: days when uh, every Monday they have a and R
Speaker 2: meeting and Jim Steward, I mean, Steve Cropper would be there,
Speaker 2: l Jackson, Booker T if he was not, if he
Speaker 2: was in town, not in college, Isaac Ca, David Porter,
Speaker 2: all those people were there and they would uh they
Speaker 2: would give the schedule for that week and this particular
Speaker 2: Monday after we recorded Soul Fingered the weekend, Jim said,
Speaker 2: before we get into this meeting, I got somebody I
Speaker 2: want to play for you. Steve Crupper was there. When
Speaker 2: he played it, Steve Crupper's face turned red because they said, damn,
Speaker 2: these were these little guys I was working with. Y'all
Speaker 2: were a threat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, then that means you're good if you're a threat
Speaker 1: to him.
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: As far as labels are concerned, you know, I know
Speaker 1: of the legend of Sun Records, I know Stacks.
Speaker 2: Were there any other labels in the.
Speaker 1: Area or surrounding areas, I don't know how far Nashville
Speaker 1: is or whatever.
Speaker 2: In Memphis there was a label called gold Wax. Gotcha,
Speaker 2: h James Carr, you're there before, I know, James Carr, Yes,
Speaker 2: at the Dark end of the Street. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 2: James Carr. You know, Chip Smallman was in Memphis. He
Speaker 2: didn't have a label, but he was you know, he
Speaker 2: had a he had a rhythm section. Got you then
Speaker 2: you had then later on High Records came into play, okay,
Speaker 2: you know with with you know, with Willie Mitchell and
Speaker 2: all those guys. So Memphis was like fledging. You know,
Speaker 2: you had Stacks. I mean I can remember I remember
Speaker 2: Albel and Willie Mitchell standing on the parking lot and
Speaker 2: Willie Mitchell says, so, man, you know have you heard that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I just cut this new Al Green record.
Speaker 2: You know, I want to play it for you to
Speaker 2: see what you think about it. And then Albill might say,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I'm gonna play you this new Isaac
Speaker 2: CAE's record.
Speaker 1: See what you think about Yeah? Are they recording on
Speaker 1: the same mixing board or the same equipment? Because the
Speaker 1: sound of Willie Mitchell and the sound of Stacks, I
Speaker 1: don't know how to how to accurately describe the sonic
Speaker 1: texture of it. Like when I compare Motown to Memphis,
Speaker 1: I will say that Motown takes advantage of compression, and
Speaker 1: they take advantage of reverb, so it sounds bigger, like
Speaker 1: they're in the hall whatever. When you hear them collapse,
Speaker 1: it sounds like it's in a big ass church, whereas
Speaker 1: like all the Memphis songs sound very dry, like I
Speaker 1: never you know. In black music, snare drums are usually
Speaker 1: tuned very tight, but everything's like low, like super low
Speaker 1: and more bottom heavy?
Speaker 2: Was that by design?
Speaker 1: Like, Okay, this is the Memphis sound where you guys
Speaker 1: trying to be anti motown were even aware.
Speaker 2: That there was You want the real answer?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do want the real answer, Like, do you
Speaker 1: know that you're actively part of a movement without knowing it?
Speaker 2: Probably though? Yeah, okay, yeah, we didn't know no about it. Okay, No,
Speaker 2: that's that's a genuine answer. Yeah, we didn't know nobod
Speaker 2: I mean we just I mean, I mean because most
Speaker 2: of the time, I mean, man, you I mean, I mean, uh,
Speaker 2: what are you at high or stacks or whatever? They
Speaker 2: didn't really I mean, stack's really more than how we
Speaker 2: didn't really have that much to work with, so you know,
Speaker 2: just push push a few you push a few buttons
Speaker 2: up and stuff like that, and then you know it's
Speaker 2: it's all and popping. You know. That's the way it was.
Speaker 2: I remember the incident I played on a song called
Speaker 2: Cheap of the Keeper Johnny Tailorny Taylor. Yes, Don Davis came.
Speaker 2: You know Don Davis used to come down to Memphis
Speaker 2: and record a lot. Yes, and uh it cut Cheap
Speaker 2: of the Keeper. Johnny Taylor was drunk, of course, you know,
Speaker 2: he had a battle of wild Turkey in his hand,
Speaker 2: and Don Davis had to go over there and grab
Speaker 2: him in the coll and said, I do want you
Speaker 2: to sing this goddamn song. I'm gonna kick you the
Speaker 2: fucking ass. But anyway, so we went up in the
Speaker 2: control room to listen to the playback or cheap of
Speaker 2: the Keeper, and they kept playing it back, no base
Speaker 2: on the song, right, So they said, uh, I mean,
Speaker 2: they already knew what had happened, but they didn't tell me.
Speaker 2: So they're gonna do this thing with me. James, did
Speaker 2: you play on this track? Now? Man? You the bass
Speaker 2: is bleeding because I'm standing. I'm standing close to the
Speaker 2: drum track, so the bass is bleeding on the drum track.
Speaker 2: So you do hear a little you hear a smidge
Speaker 2: of the bass bleeding off the drum track. The engineer
Speaker 2: pushed the bass module no bass because when he recorded,
Speaker 2: he had the bass in preview or solo, but it
Speaker 2: wasn't going on tape. Ah okay, And I'm getting the
Speaker 2: lerious that this man I was man I was playing,
Speaker 2: man called gaslighting you. Yeah, yeah, I was man I
Speaker 2: was playing. And but they already knew what was happening.
Speaker 2: By this time, the producer listened to the song several times,
Speaker 2: said it was a rap. Go out there and put
Speaker 2: the bass on the song.
Speaker 1: Sure, okay, because I'm about to say, my memory of
Speaker 1: it is you're the first thing I hear because it's
Speaker 1: a jazzy dude. Dude you okay, So you overdubbed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just I mean they just stayed up in
Speaker 2: the control everybody else stayed up in the control room.
Speaker 2: What happened was the engineer was one of these little
Speaker 2: one of these little engineers that you know, just starting out,
Speaker 2: and he got excited. He got excited because Johnny Taylor
Speaker 2: was in the building and all of that stuff like that,
Speaker 2: and uh, and just forgot to put the base and records.
Speaker 1: So you overdubb it because in my mind, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I know there's based on that.
Speaker 2: Okay, I see.
Speaker 1: So the entire barcades of the rhythm section for Cheap
Speaker 1: of the Keeper, no just or just you Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I ended up playing on a lot of sessions. Uh,
Speaker 2: Duck was supposed to be playing, okay, but Duck liked
Speaker 2: to play golf. Okay, okay, So my very first session
Speaker 2: as Stacks was on the Soul Children. Now, man you.
Speaker 2: I had another encounter Steve Cropper, because Steve Cropper was
Speaker 2: the session leader. So we ready to start the session, right,
Speaker 2: Steve Cropper said, we read to start the session. Who's
Speaker 2: gonna play bass? Where's Duck? Duck is not here, So
Speaker 2: Duck is not there, so I guess we got to
Speaker 2: use nuck. Duck was Duck, I am, and we both
Speaker 2: don't give a fuck. So my first session was Isaac
Speaker 2: Cage and David Porter recording by the Soldier and called
Speaker 2: the sweeter of he is okay, the longer the pain.
Speaker 2: So I said, you know what, if I fuck this
Speaker 2: song up here, I need to quit because all the
Speaker 2: song was, I mean the basis of the song that
Speaker 2: was the whole song basically had a couple of changes
Speaker 2: in it. But if I missed this up, I mean,
Speaker 2: Duck is probably never gonna go let me, you know,
Speaker 2: sit in and again. But fortunately I didn't mess it up.
Speaker 2: Now this is after the plane crash, so they start
Speaker 2: bringing our whole rhythm section there because a lot of
Speaker 2: the producers wanted to use our rhythm section because when
Speaker 2: you're a young musician, you don't really think about what
Speaker 2: you're doing. You just do some shit. But as you
Speaker 2: get older, you know, you start second guessing yourself. You said,
Speaker 2: I wonder what this work. But when you're young, just man,
Speaker 2: just do it. You don't even think it. So the
Speaker 2: producers like the fact that a lot of times we
Speaker 2: just always do some spontaneous type shit. And then they
Speaker 2: liked that, gotcha, So we started more and more. We
Speaker 2: started instead of them using you know, Booker t and
Speaker 2: the MG's and the MG's at the rhythm section. It
Speaker 2: usually when Booker was in college, it would Isaac Cages
Speaker 2: would would play the keyboards, gotcha, and then sometimes it
Speaker 2: be both of them.
Speaker 1: So when you're called in procession, are you getting a
Speaker 1: tape of the song beforehand? A week beforehand? Are they
Speaker 1: sending you charge or you're getting there?
Speaker 2: None of that, dude, we don't do it.
Speaker 1: Okay, name a non Barka's non otis Redding hit that
Speaker 1: you were on. Just just something from Hot Buttery sol
Speaker 1: or whatever a King which which song.
Speaker 2: Not going on the bed side, But like I'll play
Speaker 2: the blues for you, all of that, that's all of that.
Speaker 2: That's your album.
Speaker 1: Yeah, your level of getting sampled, Yeah, I got, I
Speaker 1: got questions for Jazzy after you. Yeah, okay, so you're
Speaker 1: getting called for a session. Well, see what Albert King.
Speaker 1: It's also the.
Speaker 2: Blues, so you know it's gonna be a one four five. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but but he did some uh he did some stuff
Speaker 2: with some changes in it too. Well you know, not
Speaker 2: that a change. It's just one four five, you know,
Speaker 2: just like you said, one four five, we called it
Speaker 2: sealson Roebuck. Why do you call it seius and robutause
Speaker 2: there's one four five, So sealson roebucks another name for it,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So that's the basic ground level of knowledge that you
Speaker 1: should have when you are playing a session is.
Speaker 2: Series and robots. You should do that. But then you know,
Speaker 2: fast forwarding, Uh, what I did a couple of Nashville sessions,
Speaker 2: and Nashville is a numbers uh city. They do the numbers, okay.
Speaker 2: And the first time I did the session up there,
Speaker 2: they put this chart in from me with the numbers,
Speaker 2: and then many almost laughed me out of the studio
Speaker 2: because this man, I said, Man, I don't know how
Speaker 2: to do this ship like that. I said, man, would
Speaker 2: y'all just play the demo and let me learn the
Speaker 2: song and they said, no, we don't do it like that, homeboy.
Speaker 1: So far are people listening when they do numbers? You
Speaker 1: saw Okay play one for five, so you're supposed to
Speaker 1: know that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was. I wasn't with it, so he has
Speaker 2: a trial by fire life.
Speaker 1: As far as learning, yeah, okay, going back to what
Speaker 1: you asked, we were just set around.
Speaker 2: Sometimes the song wasn't even created all the way, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean. They had the idea for the
Speaker 2: song and they said, man, you know, just come up
Speaker 2: with something of something. Okay, think of something. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: like that, got you got this lovely? I mean we
Speaker 2: set around in a circle and the writer might be
Speaker 2: in there and they might have the demo and we
Speaker 2: come up with something like that. It was there was
Speaker 2: a lot of it was just I mean off the cuff.
Speaker 1: So I'll say that the one when people do Stax
Speaker 1: versus Motown comparisons is Stax is also famous for instrumentals.
Speaker 1: Now I'm talking about pre Larry Barcays. But at no
Speaker 1: point in the Foundational years were you guys ever thinking
Speaker 1: about adding a lead vocalist to the group so that
Speaker 1: you can expand your repertoire and do other things.
Speaker 2: Well, we had some believe vocals, but the way we
Speaker 2: used to do that, we used to bring them on
Speaker 2: and let them do two or three songs sittings. Yeah, gotcha,
Speaker 2: and then we do our set. Gotcha. But we had
Speaker 2: a unique way of doing instrumentals. So even though a
Speaker 2: single was not there, it felt like a single was
Speaker 2: there because we played the melody so beautifully. Gotcha. If
Speaker 2: you ever listened to with a child's heart, yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: So we got away with it. But after a while,
Speaker 2: you know, as time went on, it's you know, I
Speaker 2: must tell you, it did start getting a little redundant,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But with instrumentals, though, how were the soloing chops? Because
Speaker 1: I mean, besides playing like the main melody and the
Speaker 1: course and all that, I'm serting at some point, like
Speaker 1: is being a virtuoso soloists also a requirement?
Speaker 2: Or was just keeping a tight rhythm section? Basically keep
Speaker 2: it tight rhythm section because in the original ball case,
Speaker 2: the only really there was only one per well, wasn't
Speaker 2: all those two people that could really do you know,
Speaker 2: decent solos? And that was a guitar player and being
Speaker 2: calling to the trumpet player everybody else was just like,
Speaker 2: you know, hey, we go. Google stays close to the script,
Speaker 2: you know, just they acomplishment. So right now on.
Speaker 1: Social media, the big thing is that both Tupac and
Speaker 1: Otis Redding passed away at the same age. And for
Speaker 1: a lot of us, we included When you first hear
Speaker 1: Otis Redding sing, I naturally thought, oh, yeah, he's like
Speaker 1: forty two, maybe maybe fifty three. And I know, generationally speaking,
Speaker 1: we get younger by the generation. I just turned fifty five.
Speaker 1: I still feel like I'm in my thirties. You look
Speaker 1: young as hell. I don't even you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Like seventy six, dude, your birthday was Tuesday, related, My
Speaker 2: birthday was Monday. There you go, Capricorn, still quering power.
Speaker 2: There you go. Tell me how Otis Redding enters the picture.
Speaker 2: And was he always an old soul like that? Always
Speaker 2: an old soul like even to you guys, was he
Speaker 2: an old soul? Or was he like a big brother
Speaker 2: to us? Like a big brother. But you know, the
Speaker 2: age difference, it wasn't drastic. It was like when I
Speaker 2: was seventeen, he was twenty five. He's like that, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, We're all twenty five year olders
Speaker 2: like that. No, No, he was he man the oldest.
Speaker 2: He was a different type of cat. Okay, this guy,
Speaker 2: he was the first guy that told us about publishing.
Speaker 2: I didn't. I mean, okay, first of all, when I
Speaker 2: signed my first record contract, I didn't even read the contract.
Speaker 2: I just signed. Oh no, But you have to understand,
Speaker 2: I signed my first contract when I was sixteen years old.
Speaker 2: I was so happy that, you know, give the deal
Speaker 2: and just signed the contract. You know you're supposed to
Speaker 2: get You know, we really weren't supposed to sign the
Speaker 2: contract sand it.
Speaker 1: You were also underage. Yeah, was that contract legal technically speaking?
Speaker 2: Contract was full of shit? Okay, it was. It was
Speaker 2: bad got you, but you know we signed it anyway
Speaker 2: because we wanted to got a record. Yeah on the record. Yeah?
Speaker 2: Did you guys have a record contract with Stacks pre
Speaker 2: or post of this writing before? It was before? Okay,
Speaker 2: And in fact, that's how it heard of us. Got you?
Speaker 2: He was in town. Back then, they used to do
Speaker 2: package shows where you would be eight or nine people
Speaker 2: on the show, and most of the time you would
Speaker 2: only do whatever your hit was and maybe one other
Speaker 2: song got you. So the whole show uses the last
Speaker 2: for like an hour and fifteen minutes and be nine
Speaker 2: people on the show, a bunch of hits and cover
Speaker 2: yeah it hits. Yeah, but if you did three songs
Speaker 2: on the show, you was a star. Got you? Okay?
Speaker 2: And then you know Otis Redding his ship was like
Speaker 2: thirty minutes, so you know he was superstar. Right, so
Speaker 2: Otis was in town. I think the show was Oldis
Speaker 2: reading the Manhattan's Arthur Connolly, m Betty Swan. I can't
Speaker 2: remember who else was. Maybe Colin Thomas may have been
Speaker 2: on the show. But as you well know, in speaking
Speaker 2: to you earlier, it seemed like, you know, you know
Speaker 2: one of those guys that like to go out after
Speaker 2: the show. Yeah you don't, do you?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: Well we did, gotcha. You know, the show, then the
Speaker 2: after party, and then the after party, after the after party.
Speaker 2: What happened all night, all night long. But anyway, we
Speaker 2: were playing at this club called the Hippodrome, got you,
Speaker 2: five hundred Bill Street. That's the address. That's a parking lot, now, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm familiar with it. Anyway, we were playing at this
Speaker 2: club illegally of course. Okay, so Otis wanted to go
Speaker 2: out after he do a short at the coliseum. So
Speaker 2: he comes down to the Hippi draw he see this
Speaker 2: band and this particular night he was in rare Form
Speaker 2: and so he asked Al Bell and Al Jackson, which
Speaker 2: Al Bell and Al Jackson were kind of like part
Speaker 2: owners of the club, who is this band? And they
Speaker 2: told him. He said, do you think they know any
Speaker 2: of my songs? And he said, asked them, So he
Speaker 2: called out a couple of songs. I think one of
Speaker 2: us k turned you Loose and we really didn't know it,
Speaker 2: but we kind of like knew of it, but we
Speaker 2: were one of those we could fake it till we
Speaker 2: make it. So he came up on stage, we did
Speaker 2: the song with him, and he said, man, I got
Speaker 2: to have these guys for my band. Now, man, you
Speaker 2: otis had He had a twelve maybe a fourteen piece band,
Speaker 2: you know, horns, all of that, and so what really
Speaker 2: dripped him out was he kept looking up on the
Speaker 2: stage and he kept looking around trying to see what
Speaker 2: the rest of the people was. It was just six people.
Speaker 2: Don't stay got you, but the sound was big. So
Speaker 2: he said, I got to have these dudes from my band.
Speaker 2: So he stayed in town extra day because he wanted
Speaker 2: to talk to our parents. Gotcha, he wanted us to
Speaker 2: go on the road with him. Right, we were getting
Speaker 2: all hyped up and excited, and our parents said, hell
Speaker 2: no to the no, no, no to the Really they said,
Speaker 2: I mean, come, man, were still in high school, all
Speaker 2: of the parents were, and they were all in the agreement.
Speaker 2: In agreement, they said, Look, everybody was in the twelfth
Speaker 2: grade except me. I was in the elevel because I'm
Speaker 2: you know, like I was kind of like the youngest.
Speaker 2: Got you, So he said, I don't know, but I
Speaker 2: got to have these guys by band. So graduation was
Speaker 2: like at the end of May, first of June. So
Speaker 2: when they graduated, you know, I still had another year.
Speaker 2: The day we graduated, you know, most people have graduation parties.
Speaker 2: The same day we graduated, we left and went on
Speaker 2: the road. Or we flew from Memphis to New York
Speaker 2: to play with the Otis Redding where.
Speaker 1: In New York the Apollo Theater. Oh my god, our
Speaker 1: first gig. What did you know about the Apollo before
Speaker 1: you got there?
Speaker 2: Nothing? You didn't hear.
Speaker 1: You didn't hear the legend of the Apollo theaters. That's
Speaker 1: good that's actually good. That's good for you.
Speaker 2: Look, you have to here's what you have to understand.
Speaker 2: You're talking about some country bunkins. Up to this point
Speaker 2: in our lives Memphis, we never we had gone no
Speaker 2: more than thirty or forty mile raiders all the way
Speaker 2: around from Memphis Tennessee. Got you, you know, maybe black Ville, Lockis,
Speaker 2: West Memphis across the bridge.
Speaker 1: We hadn't gone anywhere. I was taught to be afraid
Speaker 1: of the Apollo. You know, my dad would always tells
Speaker 1: me stories. My dad was like an oldiesdu op singer
Speaker 1: back in the field. We were fearless.
Speaker 2: So we didn't know what what what got me though,
Speaker 2: because you know I was kind of like the hype
Speaker 2: man or something like that. Yeah. So, uh before we
Speaker 2: played with Otis, which mind you, we never had a
Speaker 2: rehearsal with Otis. Ready, can we just call out the songs? No?
Speaker 2: Because we kept asking, man, when don't we go rehearse?
Speaker 2: Oh man, y'all know my shit, man, we ain't get
Speaker 2: to rehearsal. So the only rehearsal we had with Otis
Speaker 2: down in the basement at the Apollo Theater. We had
Speaker 2: a talk rehearsal. No instruments. We just talked it through.
Speaker 2: He said, Man, y'all got it.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when you're doing these gigs the way in
Speaker 1: my life is now, it's definitely like three hour sound
Speaker 1: checks you get there twelve one, two, three. Oh, No,
Speaker 1: it was a sound check a thing or monitor is
Speaker 1: a thing? Was the sound guy a thing?
Speaker 2: If you had two mics on stage, you were doing great.
Speaker 1: So it's the sound just naturally coming from your amp
Speaker 1: and the drums. There's no mics, two mics, monitors, no.
Speaker 2: None of that. If you was on stage and you
Speaker 2: had two oh, if you had three bikes on stage,
Speaker 2: you was swat shit.
Speaker 1: Someone told me Ray Charles having five microphones for his
Speaker 1: sole stage show was like a major thing. Like he
Speaker 1: insisted on the raylets him his piano, and then the band,
Speaker 1: the rhythm section. And okay, so if I'm in the
Speaker 1: Apollo Theater and the newsbleed third row, the.
Speaker 2: Top row up, you still gonna hear it everything.
Speaker 1: I gotta imagine that, because you know, I'm used to
Speaker 1: a life where there's I mean, you've seen modern concerts
Speaker 1: now with speakers and speakers and speakers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you know you know these guys man I
Speaker 2: can't hear my monitor.
Speaker 1: Is this why I see a lot of sixties cats
Speaker 1: hold their ear when they sing? Yeah, Ronald Eisley, every
Speaker 1: clip I've ever seen of the Eisley Brothers, like pre
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, he's always hold right so you can
Speaker 1: hear that's so he can hear him.
Speaker 2: That's his monitor. This is your monitor. Yeah, And then
Speaker 2: I came up with an era that you're supposed to
Speaker 2: know this show. So if you don't have any monitors,
Speaker 2: you're supposed to know what you're supposed to be doing,
Speaker 2: when and where you're supposed to be doing it at.
Speaker 2: So these younger guys they over play monitors. Man, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if you know, if you know
Speaker 2: what you're doing, you know, you don't really need all
Speaker 2: of that. Man, I can't hear the monitsor then you
Speaker 2: know you came up with now you got in the
Speaker 2: ears and all of that. Yeah, man, I didn't, so
Speaker 2: I'm spoiled. Sorry, I know, I don't even use none
Speaker 2: of that. I don't use no in ears. If I
Speaker 2: have monitors, fine, if I don't, it's still fine. Got
Speaker 2: you you know, I mean, but now you know you
Speaker 2: got side fields you got all this, you're gonna you know,
Speaker 2: what is that first or this reading show? Like and
Speaker 2: again no one's telling you guys, y'all better be good
Speaker 2: because the New York crowds is tough. Well, first of all,
Speaker 2: our first thing with otis Redding. Well, we played the
Speaker 2: Apollo for ten days, four shows. We played on the
Speaker 2: average at least three shows a day. I think over
Speaker 2: that ten day period we played Priorday about maybe I
Speaker 2: stand to be corrected. We played about thirty shows over
Speaker 2: that ten days. Thirty shows. Yeah, because okay, like on Wednesday,
Speaker 2: give me that tenerary Wednesday with you know, Matt Dee.
Speaker 2: First of all, they didn't turn the house. So if
Speaker 2: you came to show at one o'clock and the last
Speaker 2: show maybe started nine to forty five, or somebody stay
Speaker 2: there all day. Oh yeah, some parents made the Apollo
Speaker 2: their daycare center because they come drop the kids off
Speaker 2: at the Apollo because you know, after the show, they're
Speaker 2: gonna show a movie. Then they gonna show a show,
Speaker 2: movie show, movie show. Really yeah, same thing at the
Speaker 2: Uptown and you're in your hometown. Okay, so I'm paying
Speaker 2: what five bucks to get in? Yeah, maybe three to
Speaker 2: five bucks, maybe three bucks, and you can stay.
Speaker 1: There all and I could stay there all day, all day,
Speaker 1: watch a movie.
Speaker 2: They show a film and come out. Your parents might
Speaker 2: give you five bucks so you can get your hot
Speaker 2: dog or some popcorn or something you know you got,
Speaker 2: you know, so day care. I would do anything to
Speaker 2: witness that. Yeah, so imagine now we some country bunkers
Speaker 2: then came all the way up from Memphis Tendency to
Speaker 2: New York City. We only had one uniform. We planned
Speaker 2: Apollo for ten days. You're answering the question I always
Speaker 2: wanted to know.
Speaker 1: Now again, James Brown's whole thing is you get fined
Speaker 1: if there's a spot or wrinkle, Your shoes better be
Speaker 1: shining and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: I've heard these records, I've seen these shows.
Speaker 1: I've seen like footage, you're sweating, So how are you
Speaker 1: caring for him? Assuming that you're wearing white shirts?
Speaker 2: The uniforms it was, I don't know, do you know anything?
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard of a slack soup before? Wear
Speaker 2: a shirt in the past match? Okay? Yeah, just like
Speaker 2: an outfit. Okay, So we had some outfits like that.
Speaker 2: So what we did between shows we would take the
Speaker 2: outfits off and hang them up, you know in the
Speaker 2: balcons rooms, we hang them up on the pipes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: let them drove because yeah, the sweating a that iron, Yes,
Speaker 2: sweat smell. Yeah, we couldn't do no better. I always
Speaker 2: wanted to know that. Okay, So what happened in Apollo?
Speaker 2: You know you got hecklers and all that stuff like that.
Speaker 2: So I'm the hip man, So I go out there
Speaker 2: stor how y'all doing? Didn't nobody say shit, no, there
Speaker 2: is nothing, he said looking at me, I said, I said,
Speaker 2: how y'all doing? What's going on? So I said nothing?
Speaker 2: So a guy that's been there all day says, man,
Speaker 2: we're gonna be doing great when y'all changed clothes, because
Speaker 2: they saw us at one o'clock, we had the same
Speaker 2: outfit on. At four o'clock, we still had the same
Speaker 2: outfit on. At seven o'clock, we still had the same
Speaker 2: outfit on. But we didn't have nothing to change in too.
Speaker 2: We just had that one outfit.
Speaker 1: Uh no, okay, when did you finally get a second outfit?
Speaker 2: Were you? Least not? While we were at the Apollo Oldest.
Speaker 2: I guess Oldis probably felt sorry for us. So because
Speaker 2: after we played the Apollo. We took a little break
Speaker 2: and then we went on tour with Oldest. We did
Speaker 2: like a package show where we went all over the
Speaker 2: you know, all over the country. You know, a bus
Speaker 2: too was on the not a customized bus. So I
Speaker 2: got you everybody on the bus, got all the artists
Speaker 2: on the bus. Oh this wasn't on the bus with
Speaker 2: all the rest of us. What was it like for
Speaker 2: you to.
Speaker 1: See America at that time period and the regionalism of
Speaker 1: it all?
Speaker 2: I can remember fast forwarding we were playing doing something
Speaker 2: with Isaac Cay's in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh, the only hotel
Speaker 2: that you could stay at in Birmingham was a hotel
Speaker 2: called a g Gaston Hotel. Okay, it was black owned.
Speaker 2: It was like a motel, so you know, everybody it
Speaker 2: was like in Memphis, like the Lorraine that was one
Speaker 2: of the few hotels that blacks could stay at. I mean,
Speaker 2: he couldn't stand the peabody of nowhere like that, you know.
Speaker 2: So it just traveling around, I mean, you know, just
Speaker 2: we just saw how racist things were, especially in the South.
Speaker 2: It wasn't it wasn't as bad as we came up north.
Speaker 2: As she came like DC Philly all up thrown down
Speaker 2: the East coast, you know, it wasn't as bad, but
Speaker 2: down south it was. It was horrible.
Speaker 1: As far as Otis Is concerned, are you his stage
Speaker 1: band only or were you also going to be his
Speaker 1: studio band as well?
Speaker 2: No, we didn't. We didn't play on anything in the
Speaker 2: studio with Otis. We probably would have later on because
Speaker 2: Otis we played a After we did this tour with Otis,
Speaker 2: he took another stand in San Francisco at a club
Speaker 2: the Basin Street West, gotcha on Broadway in down in
Speaker 2: downtown San Francisco. And it was a ten day stint
Speaker 2: and we were standing in downtown San Francisco, and he
Speaker 2: was stayed. He stayed out in Marine County out of
Speaker 2: uh somebody had rented him a houseboat, so he stayed
Speaker 2: on the houseboat. So oldest, I don't know, even though
Speaker 2: I was younger, you know, we connected. So he calls
Speaker 2: me at the hotel and said, man, I want you
Speaker 2: to get out here now, man, you I'm in downtown
Speaker 2: San Francisco. He wanted me to come to Salcolito, which
Speaker 2: is you know you have to go across the Golden
Speaker 2: gate Bridge. Right. This is about forty five minute drive
Speaker 2: familiar with him in those days. A fifty five dollar
Speaker 2: cab ride gotcha even back then. So I said, man, Man,
Speaker 2: I ain't got no money to come out there. He said, look,
Speaker 2: get in a cab and when the cav get here,
Speaker 2: I come out and pay for it. So I go
Speaker 2: out to the house boat. He's sitting in the houseboat.
Speaker 2: It was his guitar, got a kpo on it. You
Speaker 2: just played it with the cape on it, so you know,
Speaker 2: straw of the guitar. And he's looking over into San Francisco.
Speaker 2: He's working on sitting on the doct La Bay, and
Speaker 2: he said, what you think. I said, Man, I don't know, shit,
Speaker 2: I don't know. He said, man, come on, man, just
Speaker 2: tell me. Even I said, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2: But that's what ended up being sitting on the Doctor
Speaker 2: La Bay.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about one of the most pivotal shows,
Speaker 1: one of the most important shows for him, probably historically speaking,
Speaker 1: one of the most pivotal shows and post modern rock
Speaker 1: history is doing the Monterey Pop Festival show. I believe
Speaker 1: this is the same show in which Who and Hendrix
Speaker 1: is where Hendrick says his guitarfire and all that, But
Speaker 1: I know that he made such an impression on that audience.
Speaker 1: And am I to assume that was like really the
Speaker 1: first time in which hippies or non black audiences got
Speaker 1: their taste of like Otis Redding live.
Speaker 2: It was a little before then. They had before they
Speaker 2: did the Moneray thing, they had gone to Europe. I
Speaker 2: got you and you guys travel with him to Europe? No, No,
Speaker 2: this was this was them. Okay, got you Monterey. We
Speaker 2: didn't do any of that. They still was using got You.
Speaker 2: But you know, that was one of those guys that
Speaker 2: was always around. So I ended up being kind of
Speaker 2: like a gopher. Okay, go get this, go get that,
Speaker 2: you know. So I traveled around you. So I got chests.
Speaker 2: I didn't go to Mona Ray, but I went. He
Speaker 2: did something at the whiskey of Go Go down in
Speaker 2: La so I watched it. I went there with him.
Speaker 2: I believe he recorded that show live. Yeah, he recorded
Speaker 2: that show live and live album and all that. You know,
Speaker 2: he kind of kind of like took me under his wing,
Speaker 2: I mean, because you know, he was always confided me
Speaker 2: and I didn't. I who am I to confide in?
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, he just wanted to talk to somebody,
Speaker 2: I mean, very just brilliant, up beyond his years. His
Speaker 2: thing was, why the hell would you create a song
Speaker 2: and give it, give the ownership of that song to
Speaker 2: a record company. They didn't have shit to do with
Speaker 2: the song. Why would you give a song to them?
Speaker 2: We didn't know no better. The first song that we recorded,
Speaker 2: which was soul Finger, we didn't have none of the
Speaker 2: we didn't know none of the publishers, so we just
Speaker 2: got writers on that song. Unbeknownst to us, that song
Speaker 2: was recorded in nineteen sixty seven. That song is fifty
Speaker 2: eight years old. Our catalog is three hundred and fifty songs.
Speaker 2: There's been no song in our catalog to beat soul
Speaker 2: Finger out of the three hundred and fifth I'm talking
Speaker 2: about hitting notice, hitting all of that. Soul Finger is
Speaker 2: the crown jewels, just the money making it to make
Speaker 2: more money than any song at one song, just publishing, writers, everything.
Speaker 2: It makes on an average of about even now, about
Speaker 2: sixty grand a year. So if we ain't on the publishing,
Speaker 2: we would be getting you know, we'd be splitting up
Speaker 2: sixty grand. But since we didn't, we're getting thirty grand
Speaker 2: and splitting thirty grand five ways, got you, got you?
Speaker 1: You know, we didn't know even to this day when
Speaker 1: December tenth comes up, do you feel the events of
Speaker 1: that day at all?
Speaker 2: No question. I don't know if you saw what I
Speaker 2: did this December tenth, No, I think I didn't. I've
Speaker 2: sent it to you, okay, And I mean I always
Speaker 2: pay homage to those guys because we had so much
Speaker 2: fun and you know, learned a lot.
Speaker 1: The whole land he walked me through, like December ninth,
Speaker 1: like the day before, just whatever that time period was.
Speaker 2: Like December the ninth, we had a show in Nashville, Tennessee,
Speaker 2: at Vanderbilt University. No, this was December the eighth. Vanderbilt
Speaker 2: was like the Harbor of the South. We had to
Speaker 2: show barcades and oldis reading at Vanderbilt University. So we
Speaker 2: were supposed to We played Nashville. Then we supposed to
Speaker 2: play Cleveland, Ohio December the ninth. So rather than spend
Speaker 2: the night in Nashville, because he had his own plane,
Speaker 2: Hey man, the o Jays and the Temptations in Cleveland.
Speaker 2: When we get through it our show, let's take the
Speaker 2: plane and fly to Cleveland and catch their last show
Speaker 2: because they was doing two shows or early show in
Speaker 2: the late show. So we left and went to the
Speaker 2: place which we were going to be playing there Deceb
Speaker 2: of the ninth. The Temptations of Ojas were there ow
Speaker 2: de some of the eighth OJ's were opening act, and
Speaker 2: I mean the Temptations were on fire at that point
Speaker 2: and the Ojs, this was back when they had five members.
Speaker 2: The Ojays turned it out. They had one song. They
Speaker 2: had a song called I'll be Sweeter Tomorrow than I
Speaker 2: Was yesterday. When they got through doing that song, I mean,
Speaker 2: people just stood up. I mean kind of like about
Speaker 2: a ten minute standing ovation. The Temps didn't want to
Speaker 2: come out. Now the Temps, man, you they had all
Speaker 2: these hits, and you know the Temps, they were there, tall,
Speaker 2: well dressed. They were the shit.
Speaker 1: Addie live hert don't play fair. Yeah, I've seen him
Speaker 1: many times in concert. He does not play fair.
Speaker 2: They came out there and they ripped it right. So,
Speaker 2: you know, being around a lot of that kind of
Speaker 2: stuff like that, you know, we came to an era
Speaker 2: where we're gonna I don't know if you know an
Speaker 2: think about it. You ever heard of people said we're
Speaker 2: gonna We're gonna cut your head. Yeah, ah, you know
Speaker 2: our head cutting. I mean, I'm in a band, you're
Speaker 2: the ban I'm in the band. So we had we
Speaker 2: know it's time to We did some battles with Cameo.
Speaker 2: That was one of our main battle groups. But anyway,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get to that. They kicked and you said
Speaker 2: the OJ's kicked the Thames Ass. The same one kicked
Speaker 2: the ass smoked them and they only had one hit.
Speaker 2: Tims had multiple hits. That's all it takes. This is
Speaker 2: when David Ruffin was in the group. Got you David Ruffin,
Speaker 2: Eddie Kendricks, Paul Williams, Otis Williams, and who am I missing?
Speaker 2: Melvin Melvin Melvin Frankly, Yes, oh I cannot forget.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you were saying that Otis in the Barcades went
Speaker 1: to Ohio to go see the Temps and the OJ's.
Speaker 1: But how does that lead to December tenth of sixty
Speaker 1: seven when the crash happens.
Speaker 2: Well, it was okay. They played on December the eighth,
Speaker 2: We played on the ninth the Barcades and Otis we
Speaker 2: played at the same club. That was the last That
Speaker 2: was the last time that. Man, it was one hell
Speaker 2: of a show because in the daytime, we did a
Speaker 2: TV show called Upbeat. Okay, you you probably may have
Speaker 2: seen that. Class said, yeah, I mean that was live.
Speaker 2: I mean it wasn't about two mics at that thing.
Speaker 2: Got you. We recorded that got you. That was the
Speaker 2: last time we did it. And normally the morning of
Speaker 2: the tenth normally I would be on the private plane
Speaker 2: with them, but the plane could only carry a certain
Speaker 2: amount of people, and two people always had to fly commercial.
Speaker 2: This particular day I happened to just be one of
Speaker 2: the people to fly commercial. How is that decision made? Man?
Speaker 2: Because what I said, I said, you know, we always
Speaker 2: would have you know, we didn't have you know, they
Speaker 2: promoted and you know rich you know, car service and
Speaker 2: no limos like that. We just got two vans, uh
Speaker 2: two station wide whatever they had at the rental car place,
Speaker 2: and so somebody had to turn the rental vehicles in.
Speaker 2: So me and the other guy we opted to turn
Speaker 2: the renal vehicle. A guy by the name of Carl Sims. Okay,
Speaker 2: he was kind of like the singer. He was like
Speaker 2: this guy, we come on to do one number before
Speaker 2: we come on. He come on to do one number?
Speaker 2: Did we come on to do maybe three numbers? Then
Speaker 2: we bring o this song got you. So we turned
Speaker 2: the rental vehicles in and we dropped them off at
Speaker 2: the at the hangar what a private plane was. Then
Speaker 2: we turned the rental vehicle and the then we catch
Speaker 2: take a commercial flight to the next show. Where is
Speaker 2: the next show? It's supposed to be in Madison, Wisconsin,
Speaker 2: at the University of Wisconsin Stubblefield. So the pilot said, hey, man,
Speaker 2: rether Than, y'all flying all the way to Madison. Why
Speaker 2: don't y'all fly from Cleveland to Milwaukee. I dropped them
Speaker 2: off in Madison and then come back across Lake Michigan
Speaker 2: to pick y'all up and then bring y'all back to Madison.
Speaker 2: So we flew to Milwaukee. So we sat and waiting
Speaker 2: on them to come, and so it started getting late.
Speaker 2: It started getting around four or five o'clock. No plane.
Speaker 2: And then you know, back in those days, you know,
Speaker 2: you didn't have technology, like, yeah, you need those cell phones,
Speaker 2: a payphone. You had to go then you call home,
Speaker 2: you know, you call and collect or something like something
Speaker 2: like that. So we start just calling and then we
Speaker 2: called around where's the plane? Nobody could tell us any information,
Speaker 2: and so finally we were at we were already at
Speaker 2: the airport in Milwaukee, so we called.
Speaker 1: Can I is the private air hangar aware that they're
Speaker 1: supposed to receive a plane to come in?
Speaker 2: Like are they in the Madison Yes? Yeah, okay, And
Speaker 2: so even for all the hours that are going by,
Speaker 2: they're unaware. They're unaware. I mean, you know, the communications
Speaker 2: system was not what it is now. You know, everything
Speaker 2: is right now, got you, yeah, in real time right,
Speaker 2: But it wasn't like that then. So ours went to
Speaker 2: so we kept calling, kept calling, and they said, well,
Speaker 2: we lost the plane on the radars. Whereas they still
Speaker 2: didn't know anything. So maybe an hour so late, they said,
Speaker 2: well we lost the plane on the radar. We think
Speaker 2: the plane went down. And that's all they could tell us.
Speaker 2: They couldn't tell us nothing else was any all of
Speaker 2: a way to tell you, like just all casual, just
Speaker 2: like that. So we in Milwaukee. So later on about
Speaker 2: another hour passed by, and so we called and they said, well,
Speaker 2: the authorities coming from Madison back to Milwaukee to pick
Speaker 2: y'all up. So they came to Milwaukee, picked us up
Speaker 2: and drove us back to Madison.
Speaker 1: By then they had known what what are you thinking
Speaker 1: in that drive?
Speaker 2: I'm known, I'm not thinking. I don't I don't know
Speaker 2: what the thing no matter, I'm seventeen years old, so
Speaker 2: I don't know what to think. Oh God, okay. So
Speaker 2: we get to Madison. They put us up in the hotel.
Speaker 2: They said, well, the plane did go down. There were
Speaker 2: no survivors. The only survivor was a guy they didn't
Speaker 2: even know, they didn't know what was being called. But
Speaker 2: he was in the hospital. So I said, well, can
Speaker 2: you can you take me to the hospital. So I
Speaker 2: went to the hospital to see him, and he just
Speaker 2: laying up in the bed. He was like in shock.
Speaker 2: If you ever seen a person in shock. I mean
Speaker 2: he was just there with his eyes open, laying back
Speaker 2: in the bed that Ben put my hand in front of.
Speaker 2: He couldn't say anything, he couldn't move, couldn't say anything.
Speaker 2: So it took us back to the hotel and they said, well,
Speaker 2: since you and the other gentleman y'all lay on the
Speaker 2: two people here, y'all will have to as we find people,
Speaker 2: y'all would have to identify the bodies.
Speaker 1: I always wanted to ask you how you felt about
Speaker 1: Jet Magazine's treatment of this moment. But because that's how
Speaker 1: I learned this story and who you were via my
Speaker 1: aunt had that Jet magazine.
Speaker 2: The Jet Magazine was notorious. I mean, you know they
Speaker 2: did the mantel and yeah, that much. I do know
Speaker 2: all that stuff. Yeah. So by this time later on,
Speaker 2: this was like on a Sunday. Of course, they had
Speaker 2: notified Zelma, Otis's wife, and she had flown to Madison.
Speaker 2: They put us all in the same hotel. So when
Speaker 2: Zelma got to the hotel, I went down to her room,
Speaker 2: and you know, we consoled each other a little bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, and it's weird because with much crime, I mean,
Speaker 2: at that point we all still was in shock. We
Speaker 2: weren't crying or anything like that. But I remember Zelma
Speaker 2: telling me, she said, James, whenever they found my husband,
Speaker 2: would you be willing to identify him? And I said,
Speaker 2: and I'm seventeen years old, right, so I had to
Speaker 2: identified the rest of the people too, So I said,
Speaker 2: of course. It was like the second or third day
Speaker 2: before they found Otis, And when they found him, it
Speaker 2: had him on a dolly. He still was strapped into
Speaker 2: his step because he was in the co palot seat,
Speaker 2: sitting in the co pola seat because his aircraft didn't
Speaker 2: require you to have a pallet and a copalot, just
Speaker 2: a palette. So we would all take turns of sitting
Speaker 2: in the co palot seat when we flying, because you know,
Speaker 2: you're thinking you the copalat of it, all right, you know,
Speaker 2: so ODIs was sitting in the co poala seat, and
Speaker 2: so when they found him, he was still in the
Speaker 2: co pala seat.
Speaker 1: For our people listening right now, as I mentioned before,
Speaker 1: kind of what brought you know, if you go to
Speaker 1: any beauty shop, for barbershop or whatever, you know, an
Speaker 1: older parents' house, like there's jet and ebony or like
Speaker 1: staples in any household, any barbershop, any black gathering, non church.
Speaker 1: Of course, they really made their mark because I Matil's
Speaker 1: mother gave them permission to show what his face looked
Speaker 1: like after they murdered him, and that you know, of
Speaker 1: course started the civil rights period.
Speaker 2: My aunt, who loved.
Speaker 1: Otis Redding, kept the Jet magazine, and of course I
Speaker 1: guess photographers were on the scene and they showed his body,
Speaker 1: and I guess the because it was December and the
Speaker 1: water was freezing.
Speaker 2: He was frozen. Yeah, he was frozen, but it.
Speaker 1: Was like the look on his face was almost like
Speaker 1: it was frozen in time of That horned me like
Speaker 1: no other photo ever, and I always wanted to know,
Speaker 1: like not did you guys think that was in poor
Speaker 1: taste or whatever, like or even considering what his widow
Speaker 1: would think or that sort of thing. But like I
Speaker 1: remember that photo first, and then going through my father's
Speaker 1: records to learn about Otis Redding, and then you know again,
Speaker 1: I give up in three thousand album Household. So when
Speaker 1: I guess my father purchased to How to Stop.
Speaker 2: Then my mom.
Speaker 1: Explained to me that this is the new version of
Speaker 1: the band from Aunt Barber's. Like she had to explain
Speaker 1: to me sort of backwards to the story of the
Speaker 1: barcades and all those things.
Speaker 2: Are you all about that? Yeah? Man, wow, I'm a
Speaker 2: I was just five at the time.
Speaker 1: Yes, at five six seven, I probably had the knowledge
Speaker 1: of a twenty year old, Like that's just who my
Speaker 1: my family was. Okay, So you know, of course, today,
Speaker 1: trauma experiences are nothing new for black creatives, especially like
Speaker 1: music is usually our therapy o, our cathartic release. Did
Speaker 1: you allow yourself to mentally deal with that sort of
Speaker 1: trauma or that loss, like is it over?
Speaker 2: Is it? What do you do? No, everything happened so fast.
Speaker 2: That thing didn't really hit me the way it it
Speaker 2: hit being called it hit me one way, it hit
Speaker 2: him a whole nother way. How did it hit you?
Speaker 2: I mean I was just numb the whole time about it.
Speaker 2: And what happened is I mean before all of the films,
Speaker 2: Jim stood and Alball called me to Stacks and said, James,
Speaker 2: I mean, I know this is a difficult time, but
Speaker 2: they said these words. They said, we want to know
Speaker 2: if you want to if you want to continue. I
Speaker 2: didn't even think about it. I said yes, being called
Speaker 2: he didn't want to do anything he did. He said, Jame,
Speaker 2: you got it. I did.
Speaker 1: Can you tell me what his version of being in
Speaker 1: that plane and how he escaped.
Speaker 2: Ben told me that before the plane took off from Cleveland,
Speaker 2: O how it didn't feel right because she said and said,
Speaker 2: I don't know this to be true or notough, but
Speaker 2: he said the battery was lower, the battery they controlled
Speaker 2: the plane was loading and they had to get a
Speaker 2: boost off or something like that. I can't measine a
Speaker 2: plane getting a boost off. But I guess you know,
Speaker 2: it runs by. You know, I was kind of like
Speaker 2: if your car breaks down and you do that. Oh okay,
Speaker 2: he said from him, something was not right up from
Speaker 2: the beginning. So when the plane started having you know,
Speaker 2: just you know, he woke up and the plane was
Speaker 2: having problems. Then the next thing he know, the plane
Speaker 2: was in a spiral. By this time, people were waking
Speaker 2: up because everybody was sleep and the plane when the
Speaker 2: plane impacted when it hit the lake. The plane hit
Speaker 2: the lake and then it broke in half. So Ben
Speaker 2: call it happened to be the only person on the plane.
Speaker 2: They couldn't swim, and he survived. I just only imagine
Speaker 2: just recollecting everything. Okay, everybody was asleep. You wake up,
Speaker 2: you still kind of like groggy. You don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2: But whatever's happening, and it ain't right. Then the next
Speaker 2: thing you know, the plane is you know, it's happened
Speaker 2: so massive and it threw everybody out in the water.
Speaker 2: The people that because you know, probably some people didn't
Speaker 2: have the seatbelt songs, so the.
Speaker 1: Weight of the seats, yeah, took them into the box.
Speaker 1: So Ben was able to dismantle his seatbelt and free himself.
Speaker 2: He may not even have a seatbelt on. He was
Speaker 2: just thrown out into the water. And from what I understand,
Speaker 2: there was a guy out in the lake just I mean,
Speaker 2: he wouldn't because you know, Madison Westcombe was cold. Is
Speaker 2: this a nighttime or daytime? Afternoon? Okay? Okay? So the
Speaker 2: guy that boat at winter so he he got over
Speaker 2: there with his boat. But Ben was the only person
Speaker 2: that he saw, because according to Bend, he had seen
Speaker 2: several people come up out of the lake, you know,
Speaker 2: trying to say help, you know, and he was already
Speaker 2: in shock, but he couldn't do anything anyway because he
Speaker 2: couldn't swell. All he can remember is somebody pulled him
Speaker 2: and put him in the boat and covered them up
Speaker 2: with because he was shaking and stuff. Gotcha. It was
Speaker 2: like it was below freezing that day. Yeah, December.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when did you even start with the idea of okay,
Speaker 1: let's rebuild a new band, Like how long did you
Speaker 1: take off before you was like okay, let's get to it.
Speaker 2: Okay. This happened in December nineteen sixty seven. By rule
Speaker 2: of sixty eight, had already reformed a new band. All right, y'all,
Speaker 2: that's going to do it.
Speaker 1: For part one of our conversation with James Alexander of
Speaker 1: the legendary Barcades, Please come back next week or check
Speaker 1: out podcast feed for part two, and that we're probably
Speaker 1: getting into the evolution of the Bark sound in the
Speaker 1: seventies and the eighties, and the making of classics like
Speaker 1: Holy Ghosts and Too Hot to Stop, the Battle, Stories
Speaker 1: from the Road, and how James helped bridge the gap
Speaker 1: into modern hip hop and Memphis. Oh, here's a nugget.
Speaker 1: Holy Ghosts, my all time favorite Bark song, was recorded
Speaker 1: years before we got to hear it. He also reveals
Speaker 1: some credits behind the Barcades, including some of the nineteen
Speaker 1: seventies classics. As we celebrate Black History Month, this is
Speaker 1: music history, and yes, black history, and that is American history.
Speaker 1: Always keep that in mind. We're just getting started, so
Speaker 1: make sure you're subscribe, rate and review the show, and
Speaker 1: we'll be back with part two of James Alexander on
Speaker 1: The Quest Love Show.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: The Quest Love Show is hosted by me Amir quest
Speaker 1: Love Thompson. The executive producers are Sean G. Brian Calhoun
Speaker 1: and Me. Produced by Brittany Benjamin and Jake Pain. Produced
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