WEBVTT - Ken Auletta: There’s More to Learn About Harvey 0:00:02.279 --> 0:00:05.240 This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:10.600 Thing from My Heart Radio. The Harvey Weinstein scandal was 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:14.360 first brought to light in October of two thousand seventeen 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.639 by Megan Twey and Jodi Canter in the New York Times. 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.720 Just one week later, Ronan Faraoh's expose on Weinstein was 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.960 published in The New Yorker. And just when you thought 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:31.720 you may be suffering from Harvey Weinstein fatigue, my guest today, 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:34.159 Ken o Letta is out with the new book that 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:38.640 is very much worth reading. Oletta explores how Harvey got 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:41.920 away with it for so long. He names those who 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.479 either looked the other way or enabled Weinstein to commit 0:00:45.560 --> 0:00:50.800 his various sexual crimes. Ken Oletta has had a remarkable 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.720 career as a journalist, a New Yorker contributor, and the 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.800 author of thirteen books. His latest is Hollywood Ending Harvey Weinstein, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.560 The Culture of Silence. Kenno Letta is known as a 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:09.000 profiler of industry titans, Silicon Valley heavyweights, and media moguls. 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:11.760 I wanted to know why he felt this book was 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:16.560 an important addition to such a heavily reported story. Well, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.679 there were still mysteries to me about Harvey, and as 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:23.959 brilliant a work as Jodi Cantor and make to Erna 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:28.160 Farrow performed, they exposed him and broke the damn of silence, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.880 which was great. But the mysteries included what made Harvey 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:37.000 Weinstein the monster he was, What explains the culture of 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.360 silence that enabled him to abuse women for more than 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.560 four decades, What was the nature of his power and 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.959 his abusive power that made people so frightened, and what 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:49.320 was the nature of the relationship and how it changed 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:52.760 between e and his younger brother Bob, who were inseparable 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:57.200 and business partners, and then Bob Weinstein fired his brother Harvey. 0:01:57.360 --> 0:01:59.360 So I was interested. I was interested in the biography. 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:02.120 That to me is because I read Cantor into his book. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.960 They were on the show. That's what's so clear in 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:10.480 your book, which was the enabling How did all these people, 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:15.520 dozens and scores of people who knew I mean, you know, 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.200 with Harvey it's a combination. And these are glib phrases. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.839 I'm so uncomfortable employing any of these phrases because they're 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.160 tossed around so regularly now. But with Harvey, it's the 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.560 toxic masculinity and the sexual predation. There are men who 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.480 possess a toxic masculinity who do not victimize women that way. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.360 They're just bluster and screaming. Ruden. There was never an 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:41.240 allegation that rude and sexually harassed anybody that I know of. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.080 But like Harvey, he was throwing things at people and 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:46.920 screaming at people and so forth. And the thing that 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.560 I was really taken with your book was this idea 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.960 of how Harvey is the is really the last of 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.520 a breed of men who could scream their way and 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:02.080 pound tables and behave the way they did in order 0:03:02.120 --> 0:03:04.800 to achieve their results, and bully people. That this level 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:08.280 of bullying that was like unseen Harvey. Women who were 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.480 abused by him, raped by him, said that they went 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.520 the room with him alone. They were terrified that he 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:16.959 would lose his temper because when he lost his temper, 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.840 he was out of control. Harvey has an impulse control problem, 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.040 and he had it in eating. I mean, he has 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.360 severe diabetes, and yet he shovels chocolate into his mouth 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.080 all the time. I mean, he spent money which he 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:31.360 shouldn't have spent, and the company was losing money in 0:03:31.400 --> 0:03:35.080 the end, but in part because of his extravagant spending 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.560 and his abusive women, and if people just verbally was 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.560 just he couldn't control his impulses, and so people were 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.200 terrified of that. But they were terrified he had real power. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.480 He had power with the press. He was perceived as 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.960 a as a figure who can get stories on his 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:53.480 behalf and the press and against you. They knew he 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:56.400 would soothe them if they challenged him in any way, 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.080 and would go at them very aggressively. If you just 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.600 look at who was who attended Harvey's second wedding to 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:07.160 Georgina Chapman, Rupert Murdoch, his two daughters were flower girls, 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:12.400 Lauren Michael's executive produce Senate Live, the head of NBC, 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.679 then Jeff Sucker, the head of the parent company of NBC, 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:20.080 Bryan Roberts. I mean, just look at that powerhouse of 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.080 people who were in his relationship, and you had to 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.960 be afraid. Well, the thing that also is interesting to 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:29.880 me is all of these things, or some of these 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:34.000 things I should say, that you delve into in the book. Now, 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.680 I'll do my best to encapsulate all things Harvey that 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:41.800 happened to me in one week at can I go 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:45.360 to cam This is in two thousand and twelve. Uh, 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:48.719 We're there and I'm going to host the MPHAR auction. 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.160 He was on the board twenty he ran the whole show. 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:54.760 Twenty different designers have contributed clothing to what they call 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:58.080 the Black on Black Ensemble. I'm gonna be the m C. 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.279 We're gonna go do an interview for the film at 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.600 the party of Lenn blevot Nick at the Duke Up 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:06.960 And then we get a phone called tell me us 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.280 that Blevotnick is canceled and he was requested by Harvey 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.200 to cancel to keep us away from the party. We 0:05:13.200 --> 0:05:15.520 were gonna go there with one camera and interview everybody 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:19.160 at the party about Ken. Harvey kills it. I'm sitting 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.120 at a table at a cocktail party, no but a brunch, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.560 and someone informs me that Blevotnick is canceled. And I 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.480 say that fucking Harvey, he's the biggest asshole in all 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.840 and this whole fucking town. And a writer from the 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.440 Wall Street Journal is right there and he writes it 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.760 in the paper the next day. Now, Harvey says, you 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:39.839 either apologize to me publicly that you said that, or 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.040 you're not invited to the m for event. You can't 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:44.440 be the host of the thing, Like I really care, 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.080 I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to apologize. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.840 And then they said, then you can't be the m C. 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.799 Now one of the producers of our film, Larry Herbert, 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.200 bought a table. Larry buys a table, and they say, 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:00.080 you can't come to the event. Ago are you in 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.320 the habit of telling people that bought two d and 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.000 fifty dollar tables to your event that they can't bring 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.200 their guests. I'm coming as his guest. So I came. 0:06:08.279 --> 0:06:11.839 And then at the behest of my wife, who's far 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:15.000 more dag Hammer Show than I'll ever be in my life, 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.120 she says, go and apologize to Harvey. I woke up 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.280 to Harvey's table because he had said, you know, how 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:23.200 would you like it if your daughter's read things that 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.080 someone said about you? You know what that's like. So 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:27.880 I woke up to Harvey's table and I said, I 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:31.359 want to say I'm sorry, and he literally lunges for 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.840 his phone, calls up a contact of The New York 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.120 Post and says, I want you to say that into 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.520 the phone. He thrusts the phone at me so that 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:43.200 the person on the other end of the phone from 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.760 the New York Post can hear me make the apology 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:47.640 to Harvey, so that they could print it in the paper. 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.320 He gave book contracts. Two people who worked at the 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:55.640 New York Post gave a screenwriter screenplay contractor Richard Johnson 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.719 when he edited page six. What Harvey among his reasons 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.000 for his power in the press. He had talk books 0:07:02.120 --> 0:07:05.080 and talk magazine, and of course he gave out screenplays. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.799 So Richard Johnson, who was the editor of Page six, 0:07:08.560 --> 0:07:13.400 he had given a screenwriting um contract too, And several 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.160 editors at of Page six had gotten book contracts over 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:20.160 the years with Harvey, as did Meeker and Joe you know, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.880 Tim Russett, who produced the best seller By the Way, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.480 and some other and other journalists. So that again, that 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.400 was all a pattern of Harvey's power. Everything was transactional. 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.080 Everything was trans including his sex. I mean, I the 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.480 question I asked him. We had an email exchange when 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.920 he was in prison, and I could ask him any questions, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:39.840 and he asked about twenty five of them. But the 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:42.000 question he didn't one of the questions he did not 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:45.680 answer is one I was desperate task Harvey. When you 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.280 put your head on a pillow at night after raping 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:50.880 let's say Jessica Man, who was a woman who testified 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.920 against them, how did you explain to yourself what you 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.760 had just done. He never answered that question, but I 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.280 think if he had, he would say it was transactional. 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.240 She it to something from me, a career in Hollywood, 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.120 and I wanted something from her. So everything with him 0:08:05.360 --> 0:08:09.080 is transactional. But I do go back that I look 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:12.720 at people and I think about alternatives. I think about 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.840 what might have been. And in your book you paint 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:20.200 this wonderful picture of their ascension and Buffalo and the 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.760 concert business and Harvey screaming at a room full of 0:08:23.760 --> 0:08:27.480 people to watch the French film. He shows these other films. 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.960 But and you realize that beyond his sexual issues, beyond 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.400 his criminality, is that Harvey was also a monster to 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.199 work with in terms of him wanting to control the 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:39.360 content of the film. But that doesn't take away the 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.240 fact he loved movies and what is good at it? 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.600 He loved movies and he could have been a great 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:48.840 Because the world we live in now, every single man 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.200 and woman who runs the production to sides of a 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.640 movie studio or television network today are all from marketing 0:08:54.679 --> 0:08:56.480 or fine if they don't know a thing about making movies. 0:08:56.480 --> 0:09:00.200 They don't know. There's not one person today in art 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.160 of a movie studio or a television number who knows 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.880 anything about putting together a TV show creatively or lived 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.840 zero DNA creatively zero. Every one of them topped a bottom. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:14.560 So in the old days, going back to Zanik, going 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.439 back to Mike Metavoy, Reuden, I think was a creative 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:20.520 beast and Harvey. I mean, you look at Harvey, go 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.760 what a tragedy, because he really did love films. You 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:27.440 look at the films he produced so distributed, starting with 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.440 his first hit, you know, Sex Lives and Video Tape 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:32.840 and then going to the Crying Game, which was the 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:35.640 reason it was his success was the reason that Disney 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:38.679 decided they had to acquire Merrimax, which they did. In 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.079 my left foot, Shakespeare loved the English patient. I mean 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.200 the list goes one Academy Awards. So Harvey was the 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.960 real thing. He wasn't a suit. But even the people 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.840 who he abused, like Onyneth Paltrow or her then boyfriend 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.320 Brad Pitt who threatened to kill Harvey. If you haven't 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.520 touched her again, continue to do movies with him? Why? 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.120 Because he was producing the of movies they wanted to 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:04.000 be in and no one else was. Another thing you 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.480 get into in great detail is Bob. Now. I've met 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:11.080 Bob on a number of occasions where I used to 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.600 run into him periodically in a certain part of town. 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.800 I would just bump into him for some reason, And 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:22.680 in my bogus psychoanalytic way, I look at him and think, 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:24.400 oh God, you just woke around all day with the 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.360 burden of being Harvey Weinstein's brother. I mean, you're his partner, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.560 and I want to ask you about that in terms 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:36.840 of that bond, meaning all brothers have a bond, presumably 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.719 very few don't, but almost none have a bond as 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.040 thick as that bond. I mean, in the end, you know, 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.520 Harvey goes down and Bob is part of that. Why 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:52.320 do you think Bob waited so long before he took 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:57.520 that opportunity. Bob had this contradictory feelings about his brother. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.600 On the one hand, he loved him and was they 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.560 shared a room in Queen's growing up. They went up 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.520 to Buffalo. In the same time, they became co equal 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:12.360 partners in Merrimax and then the Weinstein Company. Uh, they dominated. No, 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.160 we can get between the two brothers. And yet Bob 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.640 over the years, Harvey would treat him as Bobby the 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.280 young kid, as Harvey's friends often often did, and Bob 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.439 took it, and some days he felt, I got to 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:27.080 divorce my brother. Some days he said, my brother really 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:29.600 loves me. I think he was somewhat insecure about his 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.880 relationship with Harvey, who was a more dominant person. Bob 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.080 then had an alcohol problem and went to a and 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:41.760 became a very introspective person who believed in therapy, and 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.160 he became a better person because of that. Harvey. He 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.240 would constantly say, Harvey, you're a sex attic. You should 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.199 get some help. He said he didn't know Harvey was 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.839 raping woman. He knew he was cheating on his wife, 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.400 by the way, which is what all of Harvey's assistance 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:57.319 and people who worked there said, we knew he was 0:11:57.400 --> 0:11:59.319 cheating on his wife, but we didn't know he was 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.120 raping woman. Well, some as my book shows, did know 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:05.720 he was. But nevertheless, Bob went through this thing. Should 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.679 I divorce my spouse or should I not? Or maybe 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:10.880 he really still loves me and will work out okay 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.920 in the end, in two thousand fifteen, Bob was constantly 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.520 berating his brother for overspending and for losing focus on 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:22.080 the movie business, getting too fashion, getting into TV, buying 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:25.000 companies he shouldn't be buying, like Alson and stuff like that, 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.400 And Harvey got so enraged that he sucker punched his 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:31.600 brother and broke his nose in two thousand fifteen, but 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.520 Bob still made peace with him, And then in the end, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.720 when Harvey was exposed by Jodi Canton make twoey in 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:41.560 October of two thousand seventy and by Ronan you know 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:45.200 a week later in The New Yorker, Bob provided the 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.600 critical vote to fire his brother. And yet, interestingly, what 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:53.320 happened is that because his name, as you mentioned earlier, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:58.120 was Weinstein, he also was punished as Harvey was. Harvey 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.480 went on trial, but Bob couldn't get a job, couldn't 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:03.240 get an agent, couldn't get a lawyer in Hollywood because 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:06.600 his name was the thing about your book. I'm not 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:08.840 saying this was your intention, but what I took from 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:15.920 this was that Bob stayed loyal to Harvey until Harvey's 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.679 behavior actually was going to sink the company and rob 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:22.320 Bob of his share of what was once a very 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.440 healthy business. Meaning, you punched me in the face, that's 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.920 one thing. You rape women, that's another thing. All the 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.320 things you do that are wrong another thing. But now 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.840 I'm gonna lose my shares of stock in the company 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:36.400 because if you were be here. I mean, I wonder 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:37.760 if there was a bit of that with Bob. There 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.080 has to have been a bit of that. But I 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:40.959 don't think that's all of it. No, no no, I want 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:42.440 to say it's all of it. But I wonder if 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.839 with Bobo, all of a sudden he was wanted. I mean, 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.080 the truth is what Harvey's behavior and the aftermath of 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.520 that sunk Bob as well. As the company company declared bankruptcy, Bob, 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.640 it was over for Bob. And yet Bob was a 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.880 more successful financially producer with his Dimension Films then Harvey Bob. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.439 In the beginning, people said Bob made the money, not Harvey. 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.160 Do you think it was possible for Harvey to get 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:09.560 a fair trial? That's a good question. You know, I 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.840 sat in it was I attend the trial every day, 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.680 and I sat in the jury selection process, and these 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:18.480 jurors would come in and fill the room about a 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.840 hundred and twenty or so at a time, and the 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:24.040 judge asked, how many of you think raise your hand 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:28.320 if you think you could not be fair to Mr Weinstein. 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.320 One third of the hands went up, So people knew 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:36.960 about Harvey the ogre going in, and that vegs your question, 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.760 which is is it possible that he couldn't find fair 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.200 montagers who didn't have an opinion before they sat in judge. 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:47.080 Eventually the twelve jurors selected said they could sit in 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.760 fair judgment, but there were questions about that and Harvey's appeal. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:53.840 They questioned during number eleven, who was a woman who 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.880 had written a novel that was coming out in the 0:14:57.000 --> 0:14:59.840 summer of twenty twenty, a couple of months after the trial, 0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:02.520 but it was already done about an older man who 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.240 was a sexual prayer, And they said, if you have 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:07.800 such strong opinions about that, how can you judge fairly 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:11.760 this Harvey Weinstein and the defense made that argument, and 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:13.840 the judge overruled him and kept him in. That was 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:17.280 part of their appeal. So there were questions about Harvey 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.880 had a very strong appeal, I thought in reading it, 0:15:20.440 --> 0:15:23.680 and I wonder whether the Pellet Division would overturn the 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:26.280 New York City Criminal Court. But in the end, the 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.880 five justices are all women, by the way, who asked 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.200 more tough questions of the prosecutor in the appeal than 0:15:33.240 --> 0:15:36.600 they did of Harvey's defense, unanimously voted that it was 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.320 a fair trial and that Harvey deserved to go to 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:42.160 prison and deserve to be sentenced for twenty three years. 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.880 Now one area, you go on trial and you say 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:51.160 to people, these women had sex with him, claimed they 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.960 were raped, and then associated with him and even socialized 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.080 with him after the four of the sixth that what 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.480 research did you do? Who were you able to speak 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:05.440 with anybody about that concept of the victims continuing the 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:09.800 relationship with their A lot report and write a fair 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.320 amount about that. The biggest obstacle the prosecution had to 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:18.200 prosecute Harvey successfully was how do you explain why these 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.240 women who claimed to have been abused by him were 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.360 so ambitious that they continue to keep in touch with 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.000 them and in two cases actually continue to have sex 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.720 with them. And so the prosecution. What the prosecution did 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.720 was on the witness stand. They called Dr Barbera Zev 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.040 of Temple University, an expert on rape. She testified into 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.360 Bill Cosby trial, and she testified in this trial on 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:44.680 behalf of the prosecution. And she cited one fact that 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:47.600 just punched the jury and punched me as well in 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:52.120 the nose. She said, forty of women in America who 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:58.400 are raped continue to have a relationship, either friendly or 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.800 sexually with a person of them. And that was very compelling. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.200 And then the women understand the six women who testified, 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:09.879 they all talked about the different reasons why they kept quiet. 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.159 I was afraid he would attack me in the press 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:17.399 or sue me. He I signed a nondisclosure agreement. I 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.240 was in denial that it ever happened. I blame myself 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:25.400 for it happening. They gave various reasons. Ultimately the prosecution 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:28.200 was able to take their biggest weakness and turn it 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.400 into a strength. And Harvey, who thought his defense, thought 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.560 they really had a good case. And is it's a 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:36.800 compelling argument. How could these women explain why they were 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:40.240 continuing to happen. At the very least, it's confusing for 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:43.160 a lay audience. But then it goes to your point 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.520 about where the trial took place. Harvey's lawyers argued that 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:50.119 with the court, you should move the trial to another 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.600 jurisdiction like Albany or upstate New York and out of 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.359 New York right. And actually one of his lawyers said 0:17:56.560 --> 0:17:58.520 whispered to me, he said, you know, one of the 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:02.000 dangers with that as you get more anti semitism in 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.040 more rural areas, and maybe Harvey would have been even 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:07.919 more vulnerable there. But in any case, that was an 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.760 argument they made. They certainly argued that after he was 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:13.760 indicted in Los Angeles, during the trial in New York, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.200 you should take a break for a few a few 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.520 weeks because the press was writing about Harvey being indicted 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.800 and it was going to corrupt the juror's mind. You 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:26.280 look at someone like Harvey, and whatever your concept of justices, 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.480 here's a man who's in a situation now where he 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:34.199 can't do anything that he wants to do. He's in 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:38.480 that reality where you don't do anything that you want 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.359 to do. To balance out the fact that he was 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.920 a man who for decades did everything he wanted to do, 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:49.000 regardless of cost impact. He wanted to shove the eminem's 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.359 in his mouth in spite of his diabetes. He did it. 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.720 He wanted to have sex with the woman. He threw 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:55.720 her on the ground and he raped her. He wanted 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:57.760 to get out of a business deal. He and the 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.439 I mean all of the things, the level frus and 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:03.199 the knobs and the dials and the switches of the 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.040 control freak. There's probably never been a control freak alive 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.879 in human history to equal Harvey weinste in terms of 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.520 what he did to everyone in his environment. And now 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.440 he's sitting in a place where I mean, I'm assuming 0:19:17.480 --> 0:19:20.280 he's medicated to a fairly well. He's in a wheelchair, 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.840 he has theenosis in a hospital ward of a prison 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.040 now in l A. Because he goes on trial on 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:30.520 October of this year. But he was in recovering that No, 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:35.359 I'm done. I don't want to another you said that, Oh, Ken, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.919 please run a different bunk. I have no interest in 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.280 Harvey's past tense, But in any case, he's sitting there. 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.240 He has severe diabetes, he has a stent in his heart, 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.280 he has high cholesterol, he's blind in one eye. I mean, 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:53.480 and he eats baked beans. So I mean, I mean 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:55.359 people ask me, do I feel sorry for Harvey? The 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.239 answer is no, I don't feel sorry for him, but 0:19:57.359 --> 0:20:00.320 I feel as a human being, I wonder how the 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:04.040 pain he must be going through the problem with Harvey 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.160 I mean, and this is the problem I talked about 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.560 in the book in terms of me too. We group 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:11.640 everyone who is accused of any kind of sexual offense 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:16.240 with Harvey. But grouping everyone with Harvey is quite unbelievable, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:19.200 and yet we do that. And so if you're Matt 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:23.680 Lower or Mike Oreski's or you know whoever, you group 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:26.120 with him. And the truth is, very few people are 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.400 as guilty as he was of doing the awful things 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.880 he did. Larry Nassa, the gymnast doctor, was, but very 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.240 few others are. Cosby. Cosby was when the person is 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.720 talking to you, when they're interviewing you, that person's alarm, 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:46.720 that person's intellectual vanity, or their ability to conceal that 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.480 because they're probably as smart, if not smarter than many 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:52.199 people they're talking to because of their career. Do you 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:57.000 think being this very polished man makes your job easier? 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:00.439 You don't give off that energy field of aggression and 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.800 Zella Tree, there's a there's an aura to you that's 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:09.280 very relaxed and very composed. You're a very handsome guy. 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:13.639 I think personality matters, particularly when you Personality and appearance 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:17.200 matters when you're trying to get someone to talk to you. 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.120 And the other thing that matters is being a good listener. 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:22.480 If you go into an interview like a dentist, I 0:21:22.520 --> 0:21:25.000 want to drill your teeth, then no one's going to 0:21:25.119 --> 0:21:26.800 talk to you. They don't want to go through pain. 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:30.800 So I begin my interviews on the several assumptions I 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:34.520 assume if I'm profiling someone, it's going to be many 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.680 interviews that when I happen this person, not just one. 0:21:37.000 --> 0:21:39.959 So that first interview, I'm not drilling teeth. I'm actually 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:43.360 asking questions about your childhood, where you go up, tell 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:45.520 me about your parents, tell me about your dreams as 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:48.960 a kid. Now you Someone might think that's manipulative, but 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:53.000 in fact becomes incredibly valuable to me to understand that person, 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:57.680 and therefore they relax some more. People will talk if 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.240 you convey to them that you're not playing at you, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.080 that you're not on edge, and you're looking for some angles, 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:07.439 some headline tomorrow, and people will be more company. But 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:09.960 when you have Donald Trump out there saying, and increasingly 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:12.359