1 00:00:02,279 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. The Harvey Weinstein scandal was 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: first brought to light in October of two thousand seventeen 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: by Megan Twey and Jodi Canter in the New York Times. 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Just one week later, Ronan Faraoh's expose on Weinstein was 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: published in The New Yorker. And just when you thought 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: you may be suffering from Harvey Weinstein fatigue, my guest today, 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: Ken o Letta is out with the new book that 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: is very much worth reading. Oletta explores how Harvey got 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: away with it for so long. He names those who 11 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: either looked the other way or enabled Weinstein to commit 12 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: his various sexual crimes. Ken Oletta has had a remarkable 13 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: career as a journalist, a New Yorker contributor, and the 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: author of thirteen books. His latest is Hollywood Ending Harvey Weinstein, 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: The Culture of Silence. Kenno Letta is known as a 16 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: profiler of industry titans, Silicon Valley heavyweights, and media moguls. 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: I wanted to know why he felt this book was 18 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: an important addition to such a heavily reported story. Well, 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: there were still mysteries to me about Harvey, and as 20 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: brilliant a work as Jodi Cantor and make to Erna 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: Farrow performed, they exposed him and broke the damn of silence, 22 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: which was great. But the mysteries included what made Harvey 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: Weinstein the monster he was, What explains the culture of 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: silence that enabled him to abuse women for more than 25 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: four decades, What was the nature of his power and 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: his abusive power that made people so frightened, and what 27 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: was the nature of the relationship and how it changed 28 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: between e and his younger brother Bob, who were inseparable 29 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: and business partners, and then Bob Weinstein fired his brother Harvey. 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,360 Speaker 1: So I was interested. I was interested in the biography. 31 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: That to me is because I read Cantor into his book. 32 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: They were on the show. That's what's so clear in 33 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: your book, which was the enabling How did all these people, 34 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: dozens and scores of people who knew I mean, you know, 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: with Harvey it's a combination. And these are glib phrases. 36 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,839 Speaker 1: I'm so uncomfortable employing any of these phrases because they're 37 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: tossed around so regularly now. But with Harvey, it's the 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 1: toxic masculinity and the sexual predation. There are men who 39 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 1: possess a toxic masculinity who do not victimize women that way. 40 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 1: They're just bluster and screaming. Ruden. There was never an 41 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: allegation that rude and sexually harassed anybody that I know of. 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: But like Harvey, he was throwing things at people and 43 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: screaming at people and so forth. And the thing that 44 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: I was really taken with your book was this idea 45 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: of how Harvey is the is really the last of 46 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: a breed of men who could scream their way and 47 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: pound tables and behave the way they did in order 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: to achieve their results, and bully people. That this level 49 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: of bullying that was like unseen Harvey. Women who were 50 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: abused by him, raped by him, said that they went 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: the room with him alone. They were terrified that he 52 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,959 Speaker 1: would lose his temper because when he lost his temper, 53 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: he was out of control. Harvey has an impulse control problem, 54 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: and he had it in eating. I mean, he has 55 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 1: severe diabetes, and yet he shovels chocolate into his mouth 56 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: all the time. I mean, he spent money which he 57 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't have spent, and the company was losing money in 58 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: the end, but in part because of his extravagant spending 59 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: and his abusive women, and if people just verbally was 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: just he couldn't control his impulses, and so people were 61 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: terrified of that. But they were terrified he had real power. 62 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: He had power with the press. He was perceived as 63 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: a as a figure who can get stories on his 64 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: behalf and the press and against you. They knew he 65 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: would soothe them if they challenged him in any way, 66 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: and would go at them very aggressively. If you just 67 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,600 Speaker 1: look at who was who attended Harvey's second wedding to 68 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: Georgina Chapman, Rupert Murdoch, his two daughters were flower girls, 69 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Lauren Michael's executive produce Senate Live, the head of NBC, 70 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,679 Speaker 1: then Jeff Sucker, the head of the parent company of NBC, 71 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: Bryan Roberts. I mean, just look at that powerhouse of 72 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: people who were in his relationship, and you had to 73 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: be afraid. Well, the thing that also is interesting to 74 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: me is all of these things, or some of these 75 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: things I should say, that you delve into in the book. Now, 76 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: I'll do my best to encapsulate all things Harvey that 77 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: happened to me in one week at can I go 78 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: to cam This is in two thousand and twelve. Uh, 79 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: We're there and I'm going to host the MPHAR auction. 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: He was on the board twenty he ran the whole show. 81 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: Twenty different designers have contributed clothing to what they call 82 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: the Black on Black Ensemble. I'm gonna be the m C. 83 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: We're gonna go do an interview for the film at 84 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: the party of Lenn blevot Nick at the Duke Up 85 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: And then we get a phone called tell me us 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: that Blevotnick is canceled and he was requested by Harvey 87 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: to cancel to keep us away from the party. We 88 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: were gonna go there with one camera and interview everybody 89 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,160 Speaker 1: at the party about Ken. Harvey kills it. I'm sitting 90 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: at a table at a cocktail party, no but a brunch, 91 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: and someone informs me that Blevotnick is canceled. And I 92 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: say that fucking Harvey, he's the biggest asshole in all 93 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: and this whole fucking town. And a writer from the 94 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal is right there and he writes it 95 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: in the paper the next day. Now, Harvey says, you 96 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 1: either apologize to me publicly that you said that, or 97 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: you're not invited to the m for event. You can't 98 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: be the host of the thing, Like I really care, 99 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to apologize. 100 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: And then they said, then you can't be the m C. 101 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,799 Speaker 1: Now one of the producers of our film, Larry Herbert, 102 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: bought a table. Larry buys a table, and they say, 103 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: you can't come to the event. Ago are you in 104 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: the habit of telling people that bought two d and 105 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: fifty dollar tables to your event that they can't bring 106 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: their guests. I'm coming as his guest. So I came. 107 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 1: And then at the behest of my wife, who's far 108 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: more dag Hammer Show than I'll ever be in my life, 109 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: she says, go and apologize to Harvey. I woke up 110 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 1: to Harvey's table because he had said, you know, how 111 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: would you like it if your daughter's read things that 112 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: someone said about you? You know what that's like. So 113 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: I woke up to Harvey's table and I said, I 114 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: want to say I'm sorry, and he literally lunges for 115 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: his phone, calls up a contact of The New York 116 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: Post and says, I want you to say that into 117 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: the phone. He thrusts the phone at me so that 118 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: the person on the other end of the phone from 119 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: the New York Post can hear me make the apology 120 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: to Harvey, so that they could print it in the paper. 121 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: He gave book contracts. Two people who worked at the 122 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: New York Post gave a screenwriter screenplay contractor Richard Johnson 123 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: when he edited page six. What Harvey among his reasons 124 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: for his power in the press. He had talk books 125 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 1: and talk magazine, and of course he gave out screenplays. 126 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,799 Speaker 1: So Richard Johnson, who was the editor of Page six, 127 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: he had given a screenwriting um contract too, And several 128 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: editors at of Page six had gotten book contracts over 129 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the years with Harvey, as did Meeker and Joe you know, 130 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: Tim Russett, who produced the best seller By the Way, 131 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: and some other and other journalists. So that again, that 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: was all a pattern of Harvey's power. Everything was transactional. 133 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: Everything was trans including his sex. I mean, I the 134 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: question I asked him. We had an email exchange when 135 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: he was in prison, and I could ask him any questions, 136 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: and he asked about twenty five of them. But the 137 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: question he didn't one of the questions he did not 138 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: answer is one I was desperate task Harvey. When you 139 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: put your head on a pillow at night after raping 140 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: let's say Jessica Man, who was a woman who testified 141 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: against them, how did you explain to yourself what you 142 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: had just done. He never answered that question, but I 143 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: think if he had, he would say it was transactional. 144 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: She it to something from me, a career in Hollywood, 145 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: and I wanted something from her. So everything with him 146 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,080 Speaker 1: is transactional. But I do go back that I look 147 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: at people and I think about alternatives. I think about 148 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: what might have been. And in your book you paint 149 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: this wonderful picture of their ascension and Buffalo and the 150 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: concert business and Harvey screaming at a room full of 151 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: people to watch the French film. He shows these other films. 152 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: But and you realize that beyond his sexual issues, beyond 153 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: his criminality, is that Harvey was also a monster to 154 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: work with in terms of him wanting to control the 155 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: content of the film. But that doesn't take away the 156 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: fact he loved movies and what is good at it? 157 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: He loved movies and he could have been a great 158 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: Because the world we live in now, every single man 159 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: and woman who runs the production to sides of a 160 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: movie studio or television network today are all from marketing 161 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: or fine if they don't know a thing about making movies. 162 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 1: They don't know. There's not one person today in art 163 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: of a movie studio or a television number who knows 164 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: anything about putting together a TV show creatively or lived 165 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: zero DNA creatively zero. Every one of them topped a bottom. 166 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: So in the old days, going back to Zanik, going 167 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: back to Mike Metavoy, Reuden, I think was a creative 168 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: beast and Harvey. I mean, you look at Harvey, go 169 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: what a tragedy, because he really did love films. You 170 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: look at the films he produced so distributed, starting with 171 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: his first hit, you know, Sex Lives and Video Tape 172 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: and then going to the Crying Game, which was the 173 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: reason it was his success was the reason that Disney 174 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 1: decided they had to acquire Merrimax, which they did. In 175 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: my left foot, Shakespeare loved the English patient. I mean 176 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: the list goes one Academy Awards. So Harvey was the 177 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: real thing. He wasn't a suit. But even the people 178 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 1: who he abused, like Onyneth Paltrow or her then boyfriend 179 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: Brad Pitt who threatened to kill Harvey. If you haven't 180 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: touched her again, continue to do movies with him? Why? 181 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 1: Because he was producing the of movies they wanted to 182 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: be in and no one else was. Another thing you 183 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: get into in great detail is Bob. Now. I've met 184 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: Bob on a number of occasions where I used to 185 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: run into him periodically in a certain part of town. 186 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: I would just bump into him for some reason, And 187 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: in my bogus psychoanalytic way, I look at him and think, 188 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: oh God, you just woke around all day with the 189 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: burden of being Harvey Weinstein's brother. I mean, you're his partner, 190 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: and I want to ask you about that in terms 191 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: of that bond, meaning all brothers have a bond, presumably 192 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 1: very few don't, but almost none have a bond as 193 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: thick as that bond. I mean, in the end, you know, 194 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: Harvey goes down and Bob is part of that. Why 195 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: do you think Bob waited so long before he took 196 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: that opportunity. Bob had this contradictory feelings about his brother. 197 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: On the one hand, he loved him and was they 198 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: shared a room in Queen's growing up. They went up 199 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: to Buffalo. In the same time, they became co equal 200 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: partners in Merrimax and then the Weinstein Company. Uh, they dominated. No, 201 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: we can get between the two brothers. And yet Bob 202 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: over the years, Harvey would treat him as Bobby the 203 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: young kid, as Harvey's friends often often did, and Bob 204 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: took it, and some days he felt, I got to 205 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 1: divorce my brother. Some days he said, my brother really 206 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: loves me. I think he was somewhat insecure about his 207 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: relationship with Harvey, who was a more dominant person. Bob 208 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: then had an alcohol problem and went to a and 209 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: became a very introspective person who believed in therapy, and 210 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: he became a better person because of that. Harvey. He 211 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: would constantly say, Harvey, you're a sex attic. You should 212 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: get some help. He said he didn't know Harvey was 213 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 1: raping woman. He knew he was cheating on his wife, 214 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: by the way, which is what all of Harvey's assistance 215 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 1: and people who worked there said, we knew he was 216 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 1: cheating on his wife, but we didn't know he was 217 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: raping woman. Well, some as my book shows, did know 218 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,720 Speaker 1: he was. But nevertheless, Bob went through this thing. Should 219 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 1: I divorce my spouse or should I not? Or maybe 220 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: he really still loves me and will work out okay 221 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: in the end, in two thousand fifteen, Bob was constantly 222 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: berating his brother for overspending and for losing focus on 223 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: the movie business, getting too fashion, getting into TV, buying 224 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: companies he shouldn't be buying, like Alson and stuff like that, 225 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: And Harvey got so enraged that he sucker punched his 226 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: brother and broke his nose in two thousand fifteen, but 227 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: Bob still made peace with him, And then in the end, 228 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: when Harvey was exposed by Jodi Canton make twoey in 229 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: October of two thousand seventy and by Ronan you know 230 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: a week later in The New Yorker, Bob provided the 231 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: critical vote to fire his brother. And yet, interestingly, what 232 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: happened is that because his name, as you mentioned earlier, 233 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: was Weinstein, he also was punished as Harvey was. Harvey 234 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: went on trial, but Bob couldn't get a job, couldn't 235 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: get an agent, couldn't get a lawyer in Hollywood because 236 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 1: his name was the thing about your book. I'm not 237 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: saying this was your intention, but what I took from 238 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: this was that Bob stayed loyal to Harvey until Harvey's 239 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: behavior actually was going to sink the company and rob 240 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: Bob of his share of what was once a very 241 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: healthy business. Meaning, you punched me in the face, that's 242 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: one thing. You rape women, that's another thing. All the 243 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: things you do that are wrong another thing. But now 244 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna lose my shares of stock in the company 245 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: because if you were be here. I mean, I wonder 246 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: if there was a bit of that with Bob. There 247 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: has to have been a bit of that. But I 248 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: don't think that's all of it. No, no no, I want 249 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: to say it's all of it. But I wonder if 250 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: with Bobo, all of a sudden he was wanted. I mean, 251 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: the truth is what Harvey's behavior and the aftermath of 252 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: that sunk Bob as well. As the company company declared bankruptcy, Bob, 253 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: it was over for Bob. And yet Bob was a 254 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: more successful financially producer with his Dimension Films then Harvey Bob. 255 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: In the beginning, people said Bob made the money, not Harvey. 256 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: Do you think it was possible for Harvey to get 257 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: a fair trial? That's a good question. You know, I 258 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: sat in it was I attend the trial every day, 259 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: and I sat in the jury selection process, and these 260 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: jurors would come in and fill the room about a 261 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty or so at a time, and the 262 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: judge asked, how many of you think raise your hand 263 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: if you think you could not be fair to Mr Weinstein. 264 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: One third of the hands went up, So people knew 265 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: about Harvey the ogre going in, and that vegs your question, 266 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: which is is it possible that he couldn't find fair 267 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: montagers who didn't have an opinion before they sat in judge. 268 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: Eventually the twelve jurors selected said they could sit in 269 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: fair judgment, but there were questions about that and Harvey's appeal. 270 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: They questioned during number eleven, who was a woman who 271 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: had written a novel that was coming out in the 272 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: summer of twenty twenty, a couple of months after the trial, 273 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: but it was already done about an older man who 274 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: was a sexual prayer, And they said, if you have 275 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: such strong opinions about that, how can you judge fairly 276 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: this Harvey Weinstein and the defense made that argument, and 277 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: the judge overruled him and kept him in. That was 278 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: part of their appeal. So there were questions about Harvey 279 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: had a very strong appeal, I thought in reading it, 280 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: and I wonder whether the Pellet Division would overturn the 281 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: New York City Criminal Court. But in the end, the 282 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: five justices are all women, by the way, who asked 283 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: more tough questions of the prosecutor in the appeal than 284 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: they did of Harvey's defense, unanimously voted that it was 285 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: a fair trial and that Harvey deserved to go to 286 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: prison and deserve to be sentenced for twenty three years. 287 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: Now one area, you go on trial and you say 288 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: to people, these women had sex with him, claimed they 289 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: were raped, and then associated with him and even socialized 290 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: with him after the four of the sixth that what 291 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: research did you do? Who were you able to speak 292 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: with anybody about that concept of the victims continuing the 293 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: relationship with their A lot report and write a fair 294 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: amount about that. The biggest obstacle the prosecution had to 295 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: prosecute Harvey successfully was how do you explain why these 296 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: women who claimed to have been abused by him were 297 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: so ambitious that they continue to keep in touch with 298 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: them and in two cases actually continue to have sex 299 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: with them. And so the prosecution. What the prosecution did 300 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: was on the witness stand. They called Dr Barbera Zev 301 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: of Temple University, an expert on rape. She testified into 302 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: Bill Cosby trial, and she testified in this trial on 303 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: behalf of the prosecution. And she cited one fact that 304 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: just punched the jury and punched me as well in 305 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 1: the nose. She said, forty of women in America who 306 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: are raped continue to have a relationship, either friendly or 307 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: sexually with a person of them. And that was very compelling. 308 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: And then the women understand the six women who testified, 309 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: they all talked about the different reasons why they kept quiet. 310 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: I was afraid he would attack me in the press 311 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: or sue me. He I signed a nondisclosure agreement. I 312 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: was in denial that it ever happened. I blame myself 313 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 1: for it happening. They gave various reasons. Ultimately the prosecution 314 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: was able to take their biggest weakness and turn it 315 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: into a strength. And Harvey, who thought his defense, thought 316 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: they really had a good case. And is it's a 317 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: compelling argument. How could these women explain why they were 318 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: continuing to happen. At the very least, it's confusing for 319 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: a lay audience. But then it goes to your point 320 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: about where the trial took place. Harvey's lawyers argued that 321 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: with the court, you should move the trial to another 322 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: jurisdiction like Albany or upstate New York and out of 323 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: New York right. And actually one of his lawyers said 324 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: whispered to me, he said, you know, one of the 325 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: dangers with that as you get more anti semitism in 326 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: more rural areas, and maybe Harvey would have been even 327 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: more vulnerable there. But in any case, that was an 328 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: argument they made. They certainly argued that after he was 329 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: indicted in Los Angeles, during the trial in New York, 330 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: you should take a break for a few a few 331 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: weeks because the press was writing about Harvey being indicted 332 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: and it was going to corrupt the juror's mind. You 333 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: look at someone like Harvey, and whatever your concept of justices, 334 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: here's a man who's in a situation now where he 335 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: can't do anything that he wants to do. He's in 336 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: that reality where you don't do anything that you want 337 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: to do. To balance out the fact that he was 338 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: a man who for decades did everything he wanted to do, 339 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: regardless of cost impact. He wanted to shove the eminem's 340 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: in his mouth in spite of his diabetes. He did it. 341 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: He wanted to have sex with the woman. He threw 342 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: her on the ground and he raped her. He wanted 343 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: to get out of a business deal. He and the 344 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,439 Speaker 1: I mean all of the things, the level frus and 345 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: the knobs and the dials and the switches of the 346 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 1: control freak. There's probably never been a control freak alive 347 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: in human history to equal Harvey weinste in terms of 348 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: what he did to everyone in his environment. And now 349 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: he's sitting in a place where I mean, I'm assuming 350 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: he's medicated to a fairly well. He's in a wheelchair, 351 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: he has theenosis in a hospital ward of a prison 352 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: now in l A. Because he goes on trial on 353 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: October of this year. But he was in recovering that No, 354 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: I'm done. I don't want to another you said that, Oh, Ken, 355 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: please run a different bunk. I have no interest in 356 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: Harvey's past tense, But in any case, he's sitting there. 357 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: He has severe diabetes, he has a stent in his heart, 358 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: he has high cholesterol, he's blind in one eye. I mean, 359 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: and he eats baked beans. So I mean, I mean 360 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: people ask me, do I feel sorry for Harvey? The 361 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,239 Speaker 1: answer is no, I don't feel sorry for him, but 362 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: I feel as a human being, I wonder how the 363 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: pain he must be going through the problem with Harvey 364 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and this is the problem I talked about 365 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: in the book in terms of me too. We group 366 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: everyone who is accused of any kind of sexual offense 367 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: with Harvey. But grouping everyone with Harvey is quite unbelievable, 368 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,200 Speaker 1: and yet we do that. And so if you're Matt 369 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: Lower or Mike Oreski's or you know whoever, you group 370 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: with him. And the truth is, very few people are 371 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: as guilty as he was of doing the awful things 372 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,880 Speaker 1: he did. Larry Nassa, the gymnast doctor, was, but very 373 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: few others are. Cosby. Cosby was when the person is 374 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: talking to you, when they're interviewing you, that person's alarm, 375 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: that person's intellectual vanity, or their ability to conceal that 376 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: because they're probably as smart, if not smarter than many 377 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: people they're talking to because of their career. Do you 378 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: think being this very polished man makes your job easier? 379 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 1: You don't give off that energy field of aggression and 380 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: Zella Tree, there's a there's an aura to you that's 381 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: very relaxed and very composed. You're a very handsome guy. 382 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: I think personality matters, particularly when you Personality and appearance 383 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: matters when you're trying to get someone to talk to you. 384 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: And the other thing that matters is being a good listener. 385 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: If you go into an interview like a dentist, I 386 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: want to drill your teeth, then no one's going to 387 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: talk to you. They don't want to go through pain. 388 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: So I begin my interviews on the several assumptions I 389 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: assume if I'm profiling someone, it's going to be many 390 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: interviews that when I happen this person, not just one. 391 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: So that first interview, I'm not drilling teeth. I'm actually 392 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: asking questions about your childhood, where you go up, tell 393 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: me about your parents, tell me about your dreams as 394 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: a kid. Now you Someone might think that's manipulative, but 395 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: in fact becomes incredibly valuable to me to understand that person, 396 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: and therefore they relax some more. People will talk if 397 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: you convey to them that you're not playing at you, 398 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: that you're not on edge, and you're looking for some angles, 399 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: some headline tomorrow, and people will be more company. But 400 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: when you have Donald Trump out there saying, and increasingly 401 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: Republicans saying, I'm not going to talk to these people 402 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: because this is fake news. Our misbehavior has contributed to 403 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,160 Speaker 1: allowing Donald Trump and some Republicans to make that argument 404 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: about fake news and we can't trust reporters. And I mean, 405 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: I saw. I think when you think about journalism and 406 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: what the big worries are, it's the fact that there's 407 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: no more universal facts. People don't trust the journalists, but 408 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: they don't trust facts. And if you get if you 409 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: watch Fox News, yeah, if Fox News you get one 410 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: set of facts. In New York Times you got another, 411 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: and you can't bridge the gap between the two. I'll 412 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: now go on from this interview on to admit that 413 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: I stole everything from you, because that's what I do. 414 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: The people I work with, my producer, we call it. 415 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: We call the first question the Billiard break. How do 416 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: I line up all the shots on the table from 417 00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: the one question that we're gonna start with, which is 418 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: gonna open you up precisely. And the thing is, if 419 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 1: you think that I'm lunging for it, if you think 420 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 1: I'm trying to take it from you, I've got to 421 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: relax and wait for you to give it to me, right. 422 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: And what I always say on here when I when 423 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: I interviewed, I did a profile with Murdoch in ninety four, 424 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,880 Speaker 1: and Murdoch had reason to suspect me. When he took 425 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: over New York magazine. I quit rather than work them, 426 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: and I've been critical of his journalism, and yet he 427 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: agreed to cooperate with me and opened himself more than 428 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: he ever had with any reporter over four months for 429 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 1: The New Yorker. And one of the things I said 430 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: in that first interview, which is something I say to 431 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: everyone i'm going to profile, my job is to understand you, 432 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna ope myself so I can understand you. 433 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: And I really believe that I'm not there to prosecute 434 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: with Murdock. I'm here to understand him. And the end, 435 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: when I understand him, I shouldn't tell me when I 436 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: understood him. In the end, he hated the profile. It 437 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 1: was called a pirate and he should live because his 438 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: invidious influence on journalism. I mean, he's really been a 439 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: harmful influence son journalists, and I reported that. But I 440 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: think as a businessman and what he does how bold 441 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: he is. He's a fascinating character, and I'm going to 442 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: capture that side of him as well. Which profile for you, 443 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: because you've written these long pieces, which profile give me 444 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: an example of one that was really tough like you. 445 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: Eventually you had to employ all your artist try to 446 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: get this person to talk to you. Well, actually, the 447 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: worst human being I've ever met or profile was Roy Cone. 448 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: And it was actually a cover story of Esquire magazine 449 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: in and Roy Cohne refused to cooperate with me. And 450 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: so what I did, It's like a prosecutor doing plea bargaining. 451 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 1: I would say, Okay. I called Stanley Freeman, who was 452 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: a low partner, was a Bronx County democratically who later 453 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 1: went to jail by the way for corruption. I called 454 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: Stanley Freeman, who I knew and I covered before. I said, Stanley, 455 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: I can't believe Roy Cone, your partner wants me just 456 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: to talk to his adversaries and enemies, because that's what's 457 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: gonna happen if he shuts down his friends and him 458 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: and within five minutes where he can't call me on 459 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,760 Speaker 1: the phone and then cooperated. But to spend time with 460 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: this disgusting man who, by the way, he will go. 461 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: The first interview we did at the twenty one Club. 462 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: At lunch, we had a table and I ordered a 463 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: twenty one burger and French fries. He orders nothing. He's 464 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: sitting next to me in a banquette and with his 465 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: little hands he would reach into my plate and take 466 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,840 Speaker 1: French fries off my plate and just just eat off 467 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: my plate. Basically a total stranger, and sit there looking 468 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: around the room and see's best Myers, and he's these 469 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: other people he represented. He said, let me tell you 470 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: about them. And he would literally betray his former clients too, 471 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: in order to entice me as a journalist. When I 472 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: was in Oh, he was disgusting. What do you think 473 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: made him tick? He had an ideology, uh, you know 474 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: in the end, which was, you know, McCarthy, the reds 475 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: are taking over the country. We got to stop that. 476 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: But he also had a lot of Democratic friends. His 477 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: father was a Democratic judge in the Bronx, and he 478 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: had Democratic friends, childhood friends, et cetera, who he continued support. 479 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: So he was loyal to them, which is a bit 480 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: of a complication with but I think it was also power. 481 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: He loved the fact he goes to Donald Trump, who 482 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: I also interviewed at that point. He said, Roy Kona 483 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: is my mentor, and he sees Donald Trump at a 484 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: social club and Donald Trump says, oh, Mr, can I 485 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: ask you a question. He said, you know, we have 486 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: this case. We were accused by the federal government of 487 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: discriminating and housing at Trump properties in our apartment houses. 488 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: What do we do about that? And he says, let 489 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: me look at it. He says, this is all they have, 490 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,640 Speaker 1: the federal government. He said, I'll represent you and we'll 491 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 1: win the case. Don't worry about it. Well, he lost 492 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: the case, but he did something that was very Trumpian. 493 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: He announced, even though they lost the case, that we 494 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: won the case. Even though they will find over an 495 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,120 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars. He announced that they won because they 496 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: were not demanded to plead guilty. They didn't have to 497 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: plead guilty. So if we didn't play guilty, we won 498 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 1: the case. Well, they actually lost the case. But and 499 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: Trump forever went on that route, never apologizing, never meeting defeat. 500 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: Author Ken Oletta, if you'd like to know more about 501 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 1: the reporters who broke the Harvey Weinstein story, listened to 502 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,399 Speaker 1: my conversation with Jodie Cant and Megan Tooey from The 503 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: New York Times. We interviewed him several times. I think 504 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: that we were able to see in person sort of 505 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: the spectrum of his behavior that he would swing from 506 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: kind of charm and compliments and kind of ingratiating himself 507 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: and like, well, the New York Times, it's the best 508 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: paper in the world. And in terms of how he 509 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: was able to pray on women, I think that that 510 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: is a separate question from how he was able to 511 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: sort of keep people in his orbit and maintain his power. 512 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: That really is one of the most important questions is 513 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: that there were actually people who got glimpses of his 514 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: alleged misconduct over the years, and what do they do 515 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: about it? How can we explain the fact that there 516 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: were so many individuals and institutions, including his own companies, 517 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 1: that became complicit in his abuse. Here the rest of 518 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 1: my conversation with Jodie Canter and Megan Twoey in our 519 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: archives at Here's the Thing dot org. After the break 520 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: Ken Oletta discusses Ronan Pharaoh's early findings on Weinstein and 521 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: his theories on y NBC Killed Pharaoh's story I'm Alec 522 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing. Ken Oletta's 523 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:56,920 Speaker 1: most recent book digs into how Harvey Weinstein manipulated countless 524 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: people to conceal his shocking levels of abuse. I was 525 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: curious why Weinstein's wife at the time, Georgina Chapman, didn't 526 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: speak out against Harvey. Well, you know, she wouldn't talk 527 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: to me. No wheldive children his first wife, and I 528 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: found out that they each signed, as did Harvey, non 529 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: disclosure agreements, so they would Harvey was not allowed to 530 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: talk about them. They're not allowed to talk about him 531 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: without sacrificing significant financial support. But I talked to their 532 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: friends for the book, and their friends say that each 533 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: of them did not know he was cheating on them, 534 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,080 Speaker 1: and each of them actually loved him. I mean, most 535 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: people who know Harvey find both claims to be absurd, 536 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, you know they did, That's what they said. 537 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: So I just was thinking, in the hell, hath no 538 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: fury department? But apparently Nda is trumped that. Yeah, and 539 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: Eve children his first wife, doesn't talk to him. The 540 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: air three daughters who were adopted don't talk to him now, 541 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: and his brother doesn't talked to him, and Georgian and 542 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: Chapman politely will talk to him, but obviously not now 543 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: in prison. But there are two kids, obviously can't visit him. 544 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: He was a good apparently a good father, I found 545 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: out in the reporting I did. But you know, Harvey 546 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 1: is alone in person, without friends, without a family. Um, 547 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: you touch upon Ronan Pharaoh and his MSNBC period. Why 548 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: do you think NBC is courting and massaging and treating 549 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: Ronan Pharaoh like he's a piece of Kobe beef over there, 550 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: and then they cut his stroke and they won't air 551 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: his story. Well, obviously they had some desire to protect 552 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 1: Harvey and Ronan. Actually I was when Ronan interviewed me 553 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: about Harvey. I was worried that he was a zealot 554 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: because of the Woody Allen thing. And yet when he 555 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,959 Speaker 1: interviewed me, I was impressed that he was acting like 556 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,959 Speaker 1: a journalist. He was asking good questions. He was judicious, 557 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: was the word I later used to recommend him to 558 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: David Remnick. And I said, so he comes out here 559 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,479 Speaker 1: to he said, I need to interview more about Harvey. 560 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: I'd given him my tape recordings and stuff for my 561 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: two thousand two profile in New Yorker. I said, you 562 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: have to come out here to bridge him because I'm 563 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: finishing a book. He comes out. I said, so what 564 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 1: do you got? It's like a three or four hour interview. 565 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: And he says, I have three women on camera claiming 566 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: that Harvey abused them by name. I've got five women 567 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: on camera but shielded their identity, shield saying Harvey abuse him. 568 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: And I've got the audio tape of the Italian model 569 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: who Harvey admitted he grabbed her breasts as a police 570 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 1: audio tape. I said, oh my god, you've broken the case. 571 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: I said, what's the next step? He said, I meet 572 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: with Noah Open I am the president of NBC News 573 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: on August eighth, summer of two thousand seventeen. So on 574 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: August eighteen, that cale rowning because I said, I was 575 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: really excited that finally someone's gonna nab this pick. And 576 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: he says, they killed it and they said you can 577 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: take it anywhere. But who would want it? He said, uh, 578 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: And it wasn't a question. He believed that it was over. 579 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: I said, a can I call you back? I called Remnick, 580 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 1: the editor of the New Yorker, and I said, David, 581 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: I think this kid Running Farrell, who I thought was judicious, 582 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: has broken the case, finally, the case I couldn't break 583 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: in two thousand two, and I tried to and he said, 584 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: haven't call me Monday. So it begs the question, which 585 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: I later reported for the book, why did NBC kill 586 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 1: the Running Faroll story? So I'm doing Morning Joe one 587 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: morning and someone comes up to me from NBC. Would 588 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: you meet with this high muck a muck at NBC 589 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: News and but off the record where you can't quote 590 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: the person. I said sure, so I've never used the 591 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: person's name. So we got to lunch and this person 592 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: tells me Ronna didn't have the goods. He only had 593 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 1: the goods exposing Harvey after he came to The New Yorker. 594 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: And so the press at the time played it like 595 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: he said, she says story, NBC says this, Running says 596 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 1: the opposite. They negate each other. But there was a 597 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: third party you could go to, which is the New Yorker. 598 00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: So I went to the person who edited him at 599 00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: the New Yorker, Deadre, and I called Deirdre and I said, 600 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: dear Drew, tell me, what did Ronan bring to The 601 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: New Yorker when he came in August of two thousand 602 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: seventeen for piece that wouldn't appear until October. She said 603 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: he brought three women by name, were five women unnamed, 604 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: but nevertheless, and the audio tape. So he had everything. 605 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: And so I then speculated in the book, well, what 606 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: could explain NBC's acquiescence. And there are five theories, and 607 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 1: I don't know which is true, or if all of 608 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 1: them are true, but nevertheless, One is that no Oppenheim 609 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: as a screenwriter, and he was carrying favor with the 610 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: studio head, Harvey Weinstein. Two is that Steve Burke, the 611 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: CEO of NBC, head of Universal, it does business with 612 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: Harvey's company all the time. Studios always co produced and 613 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: co finance movies. Third explanation is that Andy Lack, the 614 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: chairman of NBC News was he and his wife were 615 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: social friends of Harvey Weinstein. For the reason, Brian Roberts, 616 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: the head of Comcast, the parent company of NBC, was 617 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: a social friend, I mean an intimate friend of Harvey's 618 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: math Martha's Vinyon mafia. Harvey called him one of his 619 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: mafia friends from Martha's Vinyond and the fifth reason, which 620 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: seems more far fetched than other, is that Harvey knew 621 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: had information about Matt Lower abusing women at NBC and 622 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: made a trade. I won't say anything about malar if 623 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 1: you don't run the story about about me. Are any 624 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: of them too? I don't know, but those are you 625 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: any explanations that have any plausibility? What's the story that 626 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 1: you wrote in your many, many profiles of people that 627 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: you were surprised that you learned something about the person. 628 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: You went in with some sense of them, and when 629 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: you when you were done, they changed your mind about it. 630 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: I'll tell you one of my favorite stories is mcclandish 631 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 1: Phillips was a New York Times reporter who Gay Talise, 632 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: the Great Gay Talisa did the show Tale said the 633 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 1: best writer on the New York Times was mcclandish Phillips. 634 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: Mcclandish phillips is reporting his story and he gets the 635 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: story that the head of the American Nazi Party is 636 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: a Jew. So he interviews this guy to dinner and 637 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: Queen's the guy's film queens, and he sits across from him. 638 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: He said, you're Jewish. And the guy is handling a knife, 639 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, knife and four and he's handling, and mcclandish, 640 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: who's about six ft six, then thanks, the guy's going 641 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: to stab him. The guy doesn't stab me. Said, if 642 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,240 Speaker 1: you run that story, Mr Phillips, I will kill myself. 643 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: So mcclandish Phillips goes back to a rosenthal on Artho Gelb, 644 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: the editors senior rieditors at the New York Times, and 645 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: he says, here's the story. And they said, this is 646 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: a page one story. This is a great story. He said, 647 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:46,600 Speaker 1: if you run it, I'm afraid he's going to kill 648 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: himself and should we really be doing this? They run 649 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: the story on page one the New York Times. The 650 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: head of the American Hazy Party kills himself. Mcclandish phillips 651 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,320 Speaker 1: resigns from The New York Times, says journal him is 652 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: too ruthless of business for me. I don't would do it. 653 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: He said he was an evangelical Christian. Phillips was. He goes, 654 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: and I hear that he's outside of Columbia University walking 655 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: handing out Christ's literature as an evangelical leader. So I said, 656 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: oh my god, what a great story. I actually track 657 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: him down and wind up profiling him for The New Yorker, 658 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: and he was one of the great men I've ever 659 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: met in my life. You grew up in Coney Island. 660 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: How many kids in your family? Older brother, younger sister. 661 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: And when we lived in a row house on West 662 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: seventeenth Street, father was he had a little sporting good 663 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: store and still all Avenue. He'd been a long showman 664 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: before that. My mother is Jewish and my mother had 665 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,919 Speaker 1: two sisters who married Italian and all lived on West 666 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: seventeenth Street. And the thought when the Catholic Church, you 667 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:50,759 Speaker 1: go to Catholic Church and some priests would say that 668 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: Jews killed Christ. My father stopped going to church. And 669 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: because when Jews you couldn't stereotype. You knew Jewish people 670 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: and new Italian people, and it overcame all the stereotypes. 671 00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: Now you where do you go to high school? A 672 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: ram Lincoln High School? Okay, where'd you go to college? 673 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: State University? As you only goes to the baseball coach 674 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: got me in that's what you did? You play baseball there? 675 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: Base and graduate school? No I did. I then became 676 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: a more serious dudeent. I was a school up in 677 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: high school and I went to Maxwell School at Syracuse University, 678 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: got a mask, I was in a PhD pro I 679 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,439 Speaker 1: got a master's pardon. That's both my parents and both 680 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 1: sets of my grandparents went to s So Joe Biden, 681 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: by the way. So you go to Maxwell for journalism, 682 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: for political science, science, and what was the plan? The 683 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: plan was, I thought, you know, maybe I'd be a 684 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 1: diplomat or working government, but not not politics. And the 685 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: dean of the school I was writing for the school newspaper. 686 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: I was the editor of the off campus literary magazine, 687 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: Investigated Magazine, really, and I said, I'm bored. I don't 688 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: want to get a PhD. I don't want to say 689 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: you do that. He introduced me to a guy named 690 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: Howard Samuels the upstate in Dust was the guy who 691 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: invented baggies in the plastic clothesline as an engineer at 692 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 1: M I T. And so I drove over to Cannon, Daego, 693 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: where his business court his business was, and I go 694 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 1: to work for him as a speechwriter, code holder, travel companion, 695 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 1: and then later became his campaign manager in nineteen seventy four. 696 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 1: He was the first Democrat to endorse John lindsay independent 697 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: race for re election in nineteen sixty nine, and Lindsay 698 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: then turns him and asked, would you run. We're starting 699 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,560 Speaker 1: the first off track betting company in the country. He 700 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: was called Howie the Horse, and he ran. I was 701 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 1: the executive director. So I was how long did you 702 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: do that? We did three years and I quit to 703 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,400 Speaker 1: plan his campaign for governor. And when he started as 704 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: government he was twenty points ahead in the poll. Everyone 705 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: thought he's gonna win. He lost. I was campaignment by 706 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: twenty points. To you. Well, what happened was he was 707 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: actually one of the most hilarious experience in my life. 708 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: His wife was two year is old in born in France, 709 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:06,360 Speaker 1: and her father, Camille Shawtan was his name. He was 710 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: the attorney general of the Vichy government, the pro Nazi 711 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: government in France, and carries people. David Garth was the 712 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: empressari on. It put out that she was defending she 713 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,840 Speaker 1: was the daughter of a Nazi collaborator. She was, but 714 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: she was two years old, you know. But she insisted, 715 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: the wife of the candidate that the campaign should also 716 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 1: be not just about my husband, but about restoring my 717 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,719 Speaker 1: father's good name. I said, no, no, you can't do that. 718 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: Jewish Howard Jewish, You'll get killed. Well, six of the 719 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,680 Speaker 1: Jewish voters in New York State at Cornia polls voted 720 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: for an Irish Catholics. It's mclandis Philips all over again 721 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,400 Speaker 1: with people not wanting to know and he she dragged 722 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 1: him down. Well the first press conference where Phil Tracy 723 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: was the person who wrote the story investigative story in 724 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,440 Speaker 1: the Village Voice. And he's sitting there, Howard's announcing for governor. 725 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: Tracy raised his hand asked the question, tell me about 726 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: your father in law and being in you know, anti 727 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: semi and part of governor Samuel's this is he's announcing 728 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: for governor. He launches this defense of his father who 729 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: he didn't know right and I'm sitting there and saying, 730 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: oh my god, it's over. And of course it was over. 731 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: My author Ken Oletta, if you're enjoying this conversation, be 732 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I 733 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 734 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: When we come back, Ken Oletta tells us how things 735 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: at the New Yorker magazine have changed over time. I'm 736 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: Al Baldwin, and this is Here's the Thing from My 737 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Ken Oletta's latest book details one of the 738 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: highest profile cases of the me Too era, Harvey Weinstein. 739 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: I was curious about another towering figure who left public 740 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: life in disgrace, New York's former governor Andrew Cuomo. First 741 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,919 Speaker 1: of all, I mean he had to resign, even though 742 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: he shouldn't have. The votes were not there. He was 743 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:30,080 Speaker 1: going to get impeached if he didn't resign. He was 744 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: accused of two things, as was Charlie Rose. He was 745 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: accused of misbehavior in the office, creating a culture of fear, 746 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: yelling at people, the kind of things that Scott Ruden 747 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 1: and Harvey did. He was accused of that. And the 748 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: other he was accused of sexual abuse. So the question 749 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: is do you believe the first that he was he 750 00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: was not a friendly place, was hostile? Yes? Is that 751 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: an impeachable defense that you should quit office for? No? 752 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean no, did he abuseman? Well, if the women 753 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: have claimed that, I haven't heard a counterclaim that says 754 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,760 Speaker 1: they are lying. Now, you have had a long career 755 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 1: in these essays in the time. I mean, I am 756 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 1: in the New Yorker. I'm a New Yorker junkie. That way, 757 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 1: give me a good long story about so and so, 758 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 1: and I literally thumbed through and go it's thirty pages long. 759 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: This is great, And I just love The New Yorker 760 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: for those profiles. But um, how would things change in 761 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 1: your business? Well, when I I still, I was hired 762 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,120 Speaker 1: by William Shaun who was the editor, the second editor 763 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: in ninety seven. And after I quit New York magazine 764 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,640 Speaker 1: and you quit New York Why I quit. Chris Murdock 765 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: did a hostel takeover and the editor when you were there, 766 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: Felker was the editor New York and Murdoch was going 767 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,200 Speaker 1: against Felker, and about forty of us went on strike, 768 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: and when he succeeded, roughly forty of us quit. So 769 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: I went to started writing for The New Yorker, then 770 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:03,880 Speaker 1: the New Yorker. Then, for instance, my first piece was 771 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: two parts. I did a piece called the Underclass on poverty, 772 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: which was three parts. You don't have two and three 773 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: part pieces anymore. That's certainly a change. And the assumption 774 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,280 Speaker 1: is the reader doesn't have that kind of a patience 775 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: to do that. But the New Yorkers editor since David Remnick. 776 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,320 Speaker 1: He's a brilliant editor and very much in the traditions 777 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,839 Speaker 1: of great traditions of the New Yorkers. So you can 778 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: still find a twenty thousand word piece. And I just 779 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: read a piece on on mega yachts, you know, I mean, 780 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:35,799 Speaker 1: I said, look how long this is, But it was 781 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: totally engrossing to me after covering someone as unsettling as 782 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: Harvey in his life. Who's your next book going to 783 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: be about? You know? I view what I do as 784 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: visiting other planets, get to know the natives and novelty 785 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,200 Speaker 1: something different, and so I would see it as visiting 786 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,839 Speaker 1: another planet, whatever that next planet might be. But it's 787 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 1: going it's only going to come about after I've really 788 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: this not only perched Harvey, but also I thought long 789 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 1: and hard about who do I want to marry this subject? 790 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,320 Speaker 1: So tell me more about the Book of the Underclass. 791 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 1: It began as a three ports series in The New Yorker, 792 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: and its aim was to focus on the hardcore poor 793 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,320 Speaker 1: who were responsible for the disproportionate amount of our crime, 794 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: disproportioned amount of our welfare dependency, disproportionate amount of drugs, 795 00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: et cetera. This is in the period of the early 796 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,879 Speaker 1: eighties and late seventies, and so I set out to 797 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,000 Speaker 1: find out who these people were, who were the hardcore 798 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: poor who did not escape poor and often entered lives 799 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: of crime. So I went to spending time with a 800 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: group of these people, and it was a book called 801 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: The Underclass Hollywood Ending Harvey Weinstein and the Culture of Silence. Again, 802 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: kenn of Letter, this is a great book because when 803 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 1: you say the culture of silence, I mean how this 804 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: guy was able to get away with this for so long? 805 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: But your book explains vividly how he was able to 806 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,440 Speaker 1: be evade justice with all the bargaining and horse trading 807 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 1: he did, almost almost brilliantly, like you can't believe how 808 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: agile this guy was in terms of his politically speaking, 809 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 1: how did he get away with it for so long? 810 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: So I encourage people to read this book. My thanks 811 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,880 Speaker 1: to Kenna Letta. Here's the Thing is produced by Kathleen Russo, 812 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 1: Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. 813 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,840 Speaker 1: Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. 814 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing is brought to you by my Heart Radio.