1 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. A question that is 2 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: thrown my way time and time again when people find 3 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: out what I did for a living is Morgan, How 4 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: in the world could you be around the dead so much? 5 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: Doesn't it take a toll? My knee jerk reaction is 6 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: I don't mind being around the dead. As a matter 7 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: of fact, the finality of death is rather peaceful, contrary 8 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 1: to which you see, you know on here. Perhaps it's 9 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,320 Speaker 1: not like some movie where you see the dead displaying horror. 10 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 1: It's the living that trouble me most of the time. 11 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: I certainly feel less safe around the living than I 12 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: do the dead. It all depends on how you look 13 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: at it, and sometimes things are not as they seem. 14 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,919 Speaker 1: We're going to be discussing two cases that take place 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: at the same location, and the level of horror that 16 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: is involved in this would make the strongest of us 17 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: shaking our boots. Today. We're going to be discussing a 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: double homicide where the remains were deposited in an old, 19 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: abandoned burial ground. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 20 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: Body Backs. Dave mac I don't know about you. I'm 21 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: not afraid of graveyards and cemeteries. As a matter of fact, 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: I find them rather peaceful. There's actually beauty in them. 23 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: There are a couple of them that I will seek 24 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: out during the fall because they're so gorgeous when you 25 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: can see the changing the leaves and that sort of thing. 26 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: And of course I'm always going on about how I 27 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: am from New Orleans, and you begin to talk about artistry, 28 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: and you visit those mausoleums, those graves that are all 29 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: above ground. They're famous for having above ground graves because 30 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: they'll flood if you try to bury the bodies beneath 31 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: the ground. They're unbelievably gorgeous. I urge anybody that ever 32 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: goes to New Orleans to take a cemetery tour because 33 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: it is something to behold the money that has been 34 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: invested in these final resting spots. But this case, that 35 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: cases actually that we're going to discuss involve a place 36 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: called Mount Moriah, which is kind of fascinating because that 37 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 1: in the Bible, I think that that's the location where 38 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: Abraham took his son Isaac to sacrifice him. But that's 39 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: what this cemetery graveyard burial ground will get into. 40 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: That was named we need two body bags, Joe, two 41 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 2: body bags for today. Police were actually looking for Keith Blumbo, 42 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: and when they found him, they found another man, David Rizillo, 43 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: that they weren't even looking for. So let's back up 44 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: and paint this with a very broad brush. The Warlocks 45 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,360 Speaker 2: motorcycle club in Philadelphia, according to the National Organization, the 46 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 2: charter for the Warlocks in Philadelphia was being pulled because 47 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 2: they were too violent, just too thuggish. They had too 48 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: many street thugs and we're doing things the National Charter 49 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: didn't like. 50 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: These are not weakend warriors. These are serious, serious individuals. 51 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 2: But the bottom line is Keith Palombo and David Rizillo 52 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: were two guys on the outside looking in when it 53 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: comes to the Warlocks. Keith Plombo was a musician, tattoo artist. 54 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 2: He comes from a big family, but a very big 55 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: family that's awesomely connected. They talked every day, they messaged 56 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 2: one another. They were in constant contact with each other, 57 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: and at Keith Palombo, at the age of thirty six, 58 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: still called his mother every day just to make sure 59 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: everything was okay. That's how tight this family was. I 60 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: mentioned Keith was a well known guitar player in the 61 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: Philadelphia area, also well known in the area as a 62 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: tattoo artist. Well know how popular tattoos have become in 63 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: the last fifteen to twenty years. So when police were 64 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: called on February tenth, they were told, we haven't seen 65 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: him since February sixth. The interviews start taking place with 66 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 2: family and friends, and that's where police get their first 67 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 2: big tip, and it is when a relative says that 68 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 2: Keith told him, if I ever go missing, start the 69 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 2: search at the cemetery. That basically gives you two options. 70 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 2: Keith knew that the Warlocks used the cemetery as a 71 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: dumping ground for people they clipped. That's one. 72 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 3: Option. 73 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 2: Two is that maybe Keith had been threatened with winding 74 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 2: up in the cemetery, and the cemetery in question, by 75 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 2: the way, Mount Moriah Cemetery. As the police are putting 76 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 2: the case together, they have the Warlocks, they have the cemetery. 77 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 2: They've got a missing person, Keith Palumbo. They need that 78 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: one missing link and they find it in a woman 79 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: by the name of Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli was known 80 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: to have close ties to the Warlocks. She was in 81 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: a longtime relationship with the former leader of the biker 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 2: club Eric Martinsen. He died in twenty fifteen, but she 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 2: still had direct contact with the Warlocks. Comarelli also lived 84 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: right across the street from the cemetery, and by the way, 85 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: Donna Morelli is actually a board member of the Friends 86 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 2: of Mount Mariah Cemetery. That's the nonprofit form to clean 87 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,280 Speaker 2: and preserve the cemetery after it closed in twenty eleven. 88 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 2: So here is your direct tie between the Warlocks, the cemetery, 89 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: and Keith Palumbo. So the police pay a call on 90 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 2: Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli knows something the police aren't even 91 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: looking for. She knows they're going to find Keith Plumbo. 92 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 2: She knows they're going to find something else too, so 93 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 2: she starts negotiating, and the police use this information to 94 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: find out where is the crypt inside the cemetery where 95 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: they might find Keith Palumbo. So what happens next, Joe. 96 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 1: There are not too many situations as an investigator where 97 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: you're faced with these unusual circumstances where you're literally standing 98 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: in the middle of an abandoned graveyard, and within the 99 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 1: abandoned graveyard, you're actually staring down down into a crypt 100 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: you had no idea the crypt was there, and it's 101 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: just it's the unusual fact that the police came into 102 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: this information. If anything ever happens to me. Palombo was 103 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: quoted as saying, look in the graveyard, my lord. 104 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: They did. 105 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: And when you pull the slab back, you're not just 106 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: to imagine, if you will, the deepest, darkest, blackest space 107 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: that you can possibly imagine. It's obviously windowless. You're talking 108 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: about an environment that is completely encased underground in brick 109 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: with dirt thrown on top of it. And the dirt 110 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: has been compacted for years and years, so there is 111 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: not a bit of light getting into this area. The 112 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: last time there was any light, and we can only 113 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: assume that it may have been starlight or moonlight was 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: cast down into this pit was the days that these 115 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: bodies had been cast down in there. Maybe they used 116 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: a flashlight. I doubt that they really even cared, because listen, 117 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 1: when it comes to this process and how these bodies 118 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 1: were disposed of, Palombo and Rosello, you said something that 119 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: was really key here, Dave. They were tossed away like garbage. 120 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,119 Speaker 1: So it's not like when you think about this crypt, 121 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 1: you think about how respectfully the rest of these bodies 122 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: were treated down there. These guys were essentially the top 123 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: of the crypt was pulled back and they were dumped 124 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: down in there. So the police are faced with a 125 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: very interesting prospect. First off, how are they going to 126 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: safely get down into this hole? Well, the fire department 127 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: shows up and they provide a ladder. There's not a 128 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: ladder that would go down in this thing. If there 129 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: had been a ladder at some point in time in 130 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: order to facilitate these bodies being taken down, it would 131 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: have been picked up and removed because keep in mind, 132 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: you have to place this large stone slab over this opening, 133 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: so there's not like a staircase that's built down that. 134 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: There's not a winch system or certainly an elevator or 135 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: something like that to facilitate the bodies going down on 136 00:07:59,040 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 1: the ground. 137 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: Picture you get to the bottom, there's a crypt keeper, 138 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 2: just like from TV. Now that all makes sense. Never 139 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 2: understood it, Now I get it. 140 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 1: Crypt Keeper is suddenly is certainly a metaphorical character there 141 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: for the afterlife. In this sense, you've got nothingness, You've 142 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: got black, deep, dark nothingness. And when you're processing the 143 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: scene going down into the depths, because you literally are 144 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: you have to flood this area with lights so before 145 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: you can do anything in this environment, because the smallest 146 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: little clue down there, a ripped piece of clothing, a 147 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: cigarette butt. I've actually had cases Dave with clandestine burials 148 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: where the people were digging the hole and they flicked 149 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: a cigarette butt down into the hole and we were 150 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: able to do DNA off the cigarette butt. So you 151 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: never know what you're going to find. 152 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: And they think they're going to find one, they are, 153 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 2: Just to be crystal clear, they the police, they believe 154 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 2: they're going to find the body of Keith Palumbo. They 155 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: don't know about David Rissolo. They only think, and they 156 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 2: think that Keith was there maybe two months. 157 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: Rissolo, to be honest with you, he would have been 158 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: almost completely skeletonized by this point and whatever clothing, which 159 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: again is a big part of this, whatever clothing he 160 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: would have had on, would have essentially been a container 161 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: for his skeletal remains. You've got this kind of point 162 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: of impact that happens when Keith Palombo is dropped down 163 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: onto this pre existing skeletal remain, so you can have 164 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: some disruption in the remains at that point in time, 165 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: as well, So anything that may have been in one 166 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: configuration is suddenly distorted. Then on top of that, you've 167 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: got this process that is going on with this now 168 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: recent decompositional event where Palombo's body is beginning to break down. 169 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: We're talking about two months down the road. There still 170 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: would be soft tissue. And yeah, the odor would have 171 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: been incredibly foul. Even though this is technically subterranean and 172 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: you're going to have you'll consistently the ambient interior temperature 173 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: and here is going to remain consistently at roughly below 174 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: seventy degrees more than likely. 175 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: What about humidity, Is it going to be humid? 176 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would and this and hey listen, 177 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: this space would have been probably damp. There is no crypt, tomb, casket, 178 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: or coffin that is free of moisture. People try to 179 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: sell this, they try to tell you that it is. 180 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: But these environments you're underground. So with just and keep 181 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: in mind the water table itself as it rises and fallen. 182 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: And this crypt, as we know, has been there for 183 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: well in excess of probably one hundred years. It has 184 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: experienced water damage over the years. You can just look 185 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: at the bodies that were stored in there from the 186 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: cromseeen photos and you can see mold and mildew, and 187 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: the caskets are actually beginning to break down. Some of 188 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: them have broken down that are in there. So yeah, 189 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: the humidity is going to play a key role in this. 190 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: Police went down to find Keith Palombo. They expect one body, 191 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 2: fairly new. But the police aren't stupid. They know, Hey, man, 192 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 2: if this was used to get rid of one guy, 193 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: maybe this might be like the Mob Graveyard but for 194 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 2: the biker gang, the Warlocks of Philadelphia. 195 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's pre knowledge of this too. Remember what 196 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: Keith Palombo actually told his family. He said, if I 197 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: ever go missing, look in the graveyard. Well, what the 198 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: heck does that mean? 199 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 3: Start this search at the cemetery? 200 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, start searching cemetery. What does that mean? Does did 201 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: that mean that he had knowledge of this other fellow 202 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: that had been dumped down in there? Or And this 203 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: is really chilling when you think about it. Are there 204 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:08,760 Speaker 1: other locations throughout the cemetery And the sheer magnitude of 205 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: this when you begin to kind of do the calculus 206 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: here is mind blowing. If this was in fact a 207 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: dumping ground to get rid of bodies and maybe it 208 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: wasn't just them. Keep in mind with and I don't 209 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: want to go too far filled with this. You can 210 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: fantasize about this all you want, but let's just explore 211 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,080 Speaker 1: is just for a moment. The underworld is interconnected. They're 212 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: not on an island. You have people doing business, very 213 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 1: dark things, but they're still networked with one another and interconnected. 214 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: Let's just say that one organized crime group got together 215 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: with the other one said yeah, well we use this 216 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: area on a regular basis. Nobody's going to look there. 217 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: It's the perfect set of circumstances. After you get into 218 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the space and you've got all of these other casketed 219 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: bodies or previously casketed bodies, you're thinking the damage on 220 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: these coffins, did it occur as a result of somebody 221 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: meddling with it or is it a natural event where 222 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: they're just breaking down over time? Even if it's old wood. 223 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: If these are old wooden caskets, which they look like, 224 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: if they've been freshly cracked, you could appreciate that on 225 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: the broken ends they won't have as much weather because 226 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: as they were intact prior to being broken, that area 227 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: would have kind of been protected, but you could look 228 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: for fresh breaks and hear and so that would give 229 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 1: you an idea of activity. And that's the most important thing. 230 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: Someone has been down there before. Someone has an awareness. 231 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: Someone had broken the seal on that crypt at some 232 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: point in time and gone down there, and they would 233 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: have had an awareness of it. Someone had passed through 234 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: that graveyard. Dave repeatedly looking for space to place these bodies. 235 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: But still at the end of the day, what do 236 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: you do with all of this when you get it 237 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: back to the medical examder's office. 238 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 2: And that's the question is what did Keith Palumbo? What 239 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: did his body look like after being in this crypt 240 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: subterranean temperature moist about eight weeks. We know that, according 241 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 2: to documents related to the court case, that he was 242 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: shot in the face. Are you still going to have 243 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 2: enough soft tissue to find a bullet? 244 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: The bullet here, I think is probably a secondary because 245 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: the bullet can actually pass through the head. Here's what's key. 246 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: We know that he was shot in the face. As 247 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, one of the reports has from 248 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: one of the people that kind of rolled over on 249 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: this case. They shot him on a carpeted area and 250 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: rolled his body up in the carpet and actually trimmed 251 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: off pieces of it. The carpet was super saturated, and 252 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: the police have never released the information relative to this carpet. 253 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: Was it down there with the body? I think that 254 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: that's a fascinating bit of forensic evidence. But back to 255 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: his body, what would it reveal? Listen, even with decomposing remains, 256 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: Let's just say, if you will put your the tip 257 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: of your finger in the center of your forehead, that 258 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: soft tissue right there. Someone is shot in the center 259 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: of their forehead and it's within I don't know, probably 260 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: within about eight inches, you're going to have some type 261 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of deposition on the surface of that skin. Now, will 262 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: it be more difficult to see on a decomposing body, Yeah, 263 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: it will be. Bodies do. In fact, they go through 264 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: stages relative to the color of their skin as they 265 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: are decomposing. First you'll have this kind of reddish hue 266 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: that will take place with the body. Then it'll become 267 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: this kind of sickly pink color. Then it expands out 268 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: into a green and then into a black, and then 269 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: finally the tissue is eradicated. He would not have hit 270 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: that kind of blackened state yet so you could still 271 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: appreciate any kind of stippling or tattooing that was there 272 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: on the skin. And also, if the muzzle of that 273 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: weapon was close enough to the face, as we've been 274 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: told that it was fired, they would have done a 275 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: detailed dissection immediately over that defect. Defect is just a 276 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: fancy term for the hole, the bullet hole that's in 277 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: the body. And when you reflect that, let's say that 278 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: it was within say an inch of the forehead, there's 279 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: a high possibility that you would get what's referred to 280 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: as soot deposition on the external table of the skull, 281 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: which means that once you pull away that soft tissue, 282 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: you can actually appreciate perhaps gunpowder residue on the surface 283 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: of the bone. It would still be there. That's not 284 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: going to dissipate. The skin might disappear, and obviously it 285 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: would soft tissue, but not just over this period of time. 286 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: It's a foul mess to work with, trust me, it is. 287 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: And if he was shot anywhere else in the body, 288 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: we know in the face, but there's multiple gunshots, there's 289 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: a possibility you can still find some residue there. And 290 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: also if he was beaten down in any way. Did 291 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: you know, even if a body is decomposing, you can 292 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: still in the anti mortem state when we are bruised, 293 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: we have these focal areas of hemorrhage in the anti 294 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: mortem state that occurs. That means our heart is still pumping. 295 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: You've got this hemorrhage that's leaching out into what's referred 296 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: to as an interstitial tissue. Even decompositional phase, you can 297 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: still appreciate that if you still have tissue. So they 298 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: would have examined that. Finally, one of the things that 299 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: they're going to try to discover with him. Even before 300 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: they as we used to say in the morgue, before 301 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 1: they put the cold steel to the body, they would 302 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: have done X rays. And X rays are important in 303 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: any kind of autops you do. I don't care how 304 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: benign it might seem. If you have that radiographic record 305 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 1: of the body, that's something that will never go away. 306 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: And you want to do that before you ever remove 307 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: the clothing period, because you don't know what's hiding beneath 308 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: these radio opaque things. And with these bullets projectiles, as 309 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: they pass through and they cavitate through the skull, they 310 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: leave a little lead storm lots of times, and you 311 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: can actually track that little lead storm and figure out 312 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 1: what the trajectory of the round is. And that's important 313 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: here because as a body begins to decompose, and particularly 314 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: when you're talking about the brain, the brain goes into 315 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: almost this doesn't have the same consistency as it does 316 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: in life. It's not quite as firm. So before you 317 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: ever touch the brain, like open it with the striker 318 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: saw where we removed the skull cap and all that 319 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: sort of thing. If you're looking at a radiographic record 320 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: of this, you can still see that little lead track 321 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: if that bullet is fragmenting, and you can pick up 322 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: on the trajectory. So if this eyewitness is saying, yeah, 323 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: I saw him shoot him in the face. He was 324 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: standing three feet away from him, or two feet away 325 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: or six inches away from him. He had gotten Palombo 326 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: down on his knees before he shot him. Well, now 327 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: you're talking about a trajectory that's going from above to below, 328 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: from front to back, and it's on a really pitched angle. 329 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: Maybe Palombo didn't look up at him when he was shot. 330 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: Maybe he just kept his eyes looking straight ahead. If 331 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: he's on his knees, at the guy's thighs as he's 332 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: been shot, and he shot more on the top of 333 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: the head that can be interpreted as the face, or 334 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: maybe they're face to face. Maybe he's got his chest 335 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 1: thrown out and he whips the gun out, sticks it 336 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: right in his face and shoose him. That's going to 337 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: give you a more front to back without as much 338 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: of a pitch. So that's why the x rays are 339 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: so very important. 340 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 2: So months after he's been in that grip and you 341 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 2: can still figure that out. Now, how would you get 342 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 2: the body out because I'm going to assume there's going 343 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 2: to be a barely in depth investigation of his body 344 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: right there where it's found before they move it. 345 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 3: Right. 346 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to say something here real quick. A 347 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: plug for all of my friends in the fire service. 348 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: I have gotten out of more tight fixes as a 349 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: medical legal death investigator as a result of fire service 350 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: being at a scene. And you want to know why 351 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: police officers are very fastidious with their uniforms. The thing 352 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: about firefighters, they'll look at you and it doesn't matter 353 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,880 Speaker 1: how dirty the task is. They'll say, oh yeah, doc 354 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: will be glad to help you. What do you need. 355 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: We've got a special knot that we can tie, or 356 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: we've got this and that that we can help you 357 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: out with. We got this brand new tool we want 358 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 1: to use. And let me tell you. When they would 359 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: have gotten Palombo's body out, fire rescue would have been involved, 360 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: and it would have been just like a regular rescue. However, 361 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about a markedly decomposed body. So the body 362 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: would have been bagged. 363 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 3: When you say bagged, you mean like in the body 364 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 3: bag as. 365 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: In body bag. Yeah, to completely contain the body. Here's 366 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: another bit about body bags, since we're on the topic. 367 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: Bodies don't go directly into body bags. What happens is 368 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,679 Speaker 1: we line the body bags with a clean white sheet. 369 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: And the reason we do that is that when we 370 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: place the body that is recovered at the scene into 371 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: the body bag that is in fact lined with a sheet, 372 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: we're guaranteed to a certain degree, and it's not perfect, 373 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: but to a certain degree that we can recover any 374 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: kind of trace evidence that might fall off. It's not 375 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 1: going to go anywhere. And so we can tie the 376 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: sheet off around the body and then zip the body 377 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: bag closed and lock it. We actually have these little 378 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 1: plastic locks. Then the body would have been placed into 379 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: a life saving basket essentially, like you see mountain rescues 380 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: being done and all this sort of thing, and it 381 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: would have been pulled up by the firefighters. That there's 382 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 1: a great shot from the scene that was put out 383 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: by the DA's office. I urge anybody go take a 384 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,440 Speaker 1: look at this, and you can see firefighters looking over 385 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,400 Speaker 1: into the crypt and they would have pulled them out 386 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: and then they would have transferred it to the medical 387 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: examiner's wagon and off they go. 388 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 3: And they would try to keep them level the whole way. 389 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: As best you can. You don't want to jostle any remains. 390 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: Skeletal remains are going to be a bit different. The 391 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: one saving grace is if in fact the skeletal remains 392 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: were still contained within clothing. We have to assume that 393 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,959 Speaker 1: they were. That is, if shirt, pants, shoes, all of 394 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: those items that would have acted as kind of a 395 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: containment resource for the body. So it's not like at 396 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: the scene, I think people believe that we're going to 397 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: do this really detailed examination or remains of the scene. 398 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: That's not what we're going to do. Our goal at 399 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 1: the scene is to try to keep bodies as intact 400 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: anatomically oriented minds you as we possibly can. That's not 401 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: always going to be the case, but do care would 402 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: have had to have been taken with the skeletal remains 403 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: to try to gently scoop beneath them while they're intact. 404 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: There's a high probability that you're going to lose, say, 405 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: for instance, the elements of the hand, any kind of 406 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: bony structures there. The feet are very are highly complex structurally, 407 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: so you've got bones that make up the ankle structure, 408 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: and then of course you have the toes and everything 409 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: else that's associated with that. So you want to be 410 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: as careful as you can. And the clothing that would 411 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: have been down there I've seen as a matter of fact, 412 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 1: I worked a skeletal case from New Orleans many years 413 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: ago where a guy went beneath his house in seventy four, 414 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: and this was actually profiled on a Michael Biden's autopsy 415 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: show on HBO many years ago. He went beneath the 416 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: house in nineteen seventy four and shot himself and the family. 417 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: They didn't discover that guy's body until like nineteen I 418 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: think it was like nineteen eighty nine, and I got 419 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: called out and the blue jeans were still there. He 420 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: still had the big wide belt that everybody wore back then. 421 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: The blue jeans were flared, you could still appreciate those. 422 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: He had leather shoes on and still had a mechanic 423 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: shirt on that had his name. You ever seen the 424 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: mechanic shirts that had the name, still had the name 425 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: where it was visible. And there was an old thirty 426 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: eight caliber revolver that was rusted away laying right there. 427 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: This goal was even still there, so you have to 428 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: be careful with the clothing is very very fragile. In 429 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 1: this environment. You talked about humidity, it begins to break down. 430 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 2: We know the police went down into the crypt to 431 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 2: look for Keith Palombo. That's who they were there to find. 432 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: That's what their investigation led them there. They had it 433 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: all covered now by then. They go down to the 434 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: crypt and they find his body. But they find now, granted, 435 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 2: we have a crypt that's got plenty of other bodies 436 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 2: in it, but those are obviously supposed to be there. 437 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: But then you have these two that don't match the rest. 438 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 2: One still has hair and skin, the other has been 439 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: there for considerably longer. Now, when you think about David Rozillo, 440 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 2: being in this crypt that for again, he was last 441 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 2: seen in December of twenty seventeen. We're now in April 442 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: of twenty twenty and police had to do DNA, they 443 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: had to actually do the whole forensic thing on him. 444 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 2: So where do you start. You know, you've got the 445 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 2: body on top. It was the one you were expecting 446 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 2: to find, and based on the condition of his body 447 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 2: the remains, they knew they had their right guy. Of course, 448 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 2: they did the dental test and everything else to prove it, 449 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 2: but they knew this was the guy we were looking for. 450 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 3: But what in the world. 451 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 2: This is another guy that has been dumped, probably by 452 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 2: the same people, which is why they had to get information, 453 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 2: and they started making deals with different members of the 454 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: Warlocks gang because they didn't even know who they were 455 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: looking at. Nobody had reported this person missing. That was 456 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 2: the thing with David Rizillo. They didn't know he was 457 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 2: even there. They didn't know he was missing. 458 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: That's a problem for you. However, since the police, the 459 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: investigators would know, they're kind of on a very tight 460 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: spectrum here because you're talking about a motorcycle club and 461 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: there are a finite number of people that could be 462 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: a member or associated with that club. Well, you begin 463 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: to think about the police. Law enforcement are always going 464 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: to have informants. I don't care how secure you might 465 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: think your organization is, There's always going to be somebody 466 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: around that's going to rat you out. 467 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: There is no honor among thieves and criminals. You know 468 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: how drug dealers get caught by the idiots that use 469 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: the drugs. They get caught with it because they're driving 470 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 2: around high and they have what they bought for twenty 471 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: five bucks. Cob gives them two choices. Do you want 472 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: to go to charge maybe a fellon you lose your 473 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: job and everything else, or tell me who you bought 474 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: this from. 475 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: Who'd you get it from? And you kind of follow 476 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: the stream. 477 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what they did here. 478 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: We know they did it because right at the very beginning, 479 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: we know that it was Donna Morelli. Donna Morelli was 480 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: the woman who was on the board to keep the 481 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 2: cemetery up. We know that Donna Morelli was the former 482 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 2: main lady of the club. Her husband or I don't 483 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 2: know what they call him, but her man, he had 484 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: been the head of the club and she lived right 485 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: there next to it. She was the one who gave 486 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 2: them information about Keith Palombo, and so now who is 487 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: this other body? You're the investigator, Joe. All you have 488 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 2: are bones in what is obviously a place where the 489 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: Warlocks are dumping bodies. And I think you were right 490 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: when you said, Keith Palombo said, if I ever go missing, 491 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: search the cemetery first, because he's used as a threat, 492 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 2: or he knew. 493 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: And even more sinister, did he participate. I don't know 494 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: that we would ever know, but you have to entertain 495 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: that because that thread investigatively can connect, can connect back 496 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: to that. You look at this kind of short list 497 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: of people that you have, this gentleman that they found 498 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: just down there, you begin to wonder what do you 499 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: have to go on. Obviously DNA, we know that they 500 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: either extracted DNA, probably from a tooth, more than likely, 501 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: because teeth are The way I've described it in my 502 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: class is relative to DNA extraction. If you think about 503 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,200 Speaker 1: extracting DNA from say a softer tissue, it's like having 504 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: a leather briefcase that you're taking it from. If you 505 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: take it from teeth, DNA is like having a steel 506 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: briefcase because it's that resilient. I mean some of the 507 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: most fantastic work that scientists are doing right now and 508 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: trying to understand genetics, and those sorts of things, particularly 509 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: in our prehistory, come from teeth of mast dons and 510 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: all those sorts of things, because it's a container, it's 511 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: not bone, and so they would have that. But another 512 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,400 Speaker 1: kind of broader strokes, there are other evidentiary clues here. 513 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: You know I'd mentioned that clothing, Well, that clothing is 514 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: going to have a specific size, it's going to have 515 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: a specific manufacturer. There might be name tapes or name 516 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: tax and also you might have a government ID. I 517 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: never trust government issued identification on anybody, particularly on a 518 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: decomposed remain, a skeletal remain, because it can be placed there. 519 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,199 Speaker 1: I have no idea. I can't look at the idea 520 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: and say that it is this person. So it's a 521 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: good place to start and see. I would have thought 522 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: that had been a good one. I really if you had. 523 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: If I was on a test, I just failed. 524 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: Now I make sense, Joe, It makes perfectly good sense 525 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 2: that you wouldn't trust that. 526 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: There have been many, many people that have been misidentified 527 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: with driver's licenses that they had on them. I don't 528 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: trust them. I don't trust military ideas. I've seen enough 529 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: of them. They can either be forge are faked, or 530 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: somebody can be carrying somebody else's It's too much of 531 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: a risk. You're actually what you're doing is you're running 532 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: the risk of good and this has happened. You're running 533 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: the risk of basing an identification and subsequently a notification 534 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: to a family on a government on a piece of paper. 535 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to do that. I might go to 536 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: a family and say, look, we have a remain here 537 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: that might be your loved one, but we have to 538 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: make sure. What can you tell me about the dental history? 539 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about the medical history? Is 540 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: there anywhere I can go for a dental chart? Can 541 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: I get a DNA sample from his familial line? And 542 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: if that is the case, then I can compare what 543 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: I have the unknown to the known, and that's the 544 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: most important thing. 545 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 2: And so that's what they did with David Rizilla, which 546 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: is why it ended up going to court. As we 547 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 2: know now, Donna Morelli actually was the source of information. 548 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: She was able to clee it down, which is how 549 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: it helped to find out who he was. But they 550 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 2: did the DNA matching and everything. But I was kind 551 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: of because we had talked about the condition of the 552 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 2: body for Keith Palumbo, that he was still eight weeks pasted, 553 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: that he still had soft tissue and what have you. 554 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: But with David Rizzolo, they had to depend on other 555 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 2: waves to find out to prove what had happened. Is 556 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 2: one thing for somebody to say what happened, but you 557 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 2: can't take her word for it, because, well, for crying 558 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: out loud, everybody we're dealing with, we know is a 559 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 2: member of the Warlocks gang here in Philadelphia, but they 560 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 2: all claim they were not members of the They were 561 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: never involved in the case of the guy who they 562 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: knew was a leader of the thing for years in 563 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: court they said no, he was a probationary guy. So 564 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: you can't believe anything that's being said. But what can 565 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 2: you find out When you've got the bones, you've got 566 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: the clothing, you've got this evidence. There's enough to piece 567 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,719 Speaker 2: too and two together and then form your line of attack. 568 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 2: But you're going to find these bones in there, and 569 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 2: you don't know if this is where they were when 570 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 2: they were first put down there or were they knocked 571 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: around with the other body was dropped in are the 572 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,360 Speaker 2: rodents that can get into a crypt, so the bunts 573 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 2: can be drug around. 574 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, most certainly, and rats in particular are attracted particularly 575 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: with exposed remain like this because put it quite bluntly, 576 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: other animal life attracts other animal life. And so once 577 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: those say, for instance, the fly which to get into 578 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,239 Speaker 1: a crypt is an easy feat for a fly, and 579 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: if they're smelling this decompositional event, they're going to be 580 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: attracted to it. They have no fear of the dark, 581 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: and that sense that they have, that sense rather that 582 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: they have will attract them to the body and they 583 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: begin their cycle, and it's a naturally occurring event. It's 584 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: just like any other mammal that dies. We all go 585 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: through the same process. But in that subterranean world, Yeah, 586 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: you'll get all kinds of armints that will come in 587 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: there and they will begin to do what they do 588 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: with human remains, and you would see evidence on that, 589 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: even the skeletal remains. You'll see there's any number of 590 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 1: cases that are out there where you have naw marks 591 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: on bone that's left behind. And why do they do that, Well, 592 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: animals have a natural affinity for minerals and so they're 593 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: seeking out these things that they can get from bone, 594 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: for instance, whether it's a calcium, they're searching for protein. 595 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 1: Anything that they can know on that is at their disposal, 596 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: they will seek it out and they will they will 597 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: utilize it. So yet the bones can be compromised to 598 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: that point, however, you're at a real you're behind the 599 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: eight ball where the skeletal remain if you're looking for 600 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: a cause of death, and I think that that's probably 601 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: what everybody would want to know. Here's another problem. Let's 602 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: just say, just like Palombo, he was shot in the face, 603 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,400 Speaker 1: well his head. As long as there's a soft tissue 604 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: around the head, you still have containment. The skull would 605 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: be fragmented, it'd be fractured as decomposition continues on in 606 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: its natural state. Not talking about an embalmed body. The 607 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: bones literally kind of fall upon it's like a fracturing 608 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: clay pot, okay, and they'll be cast about where the 609 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: skeletal remain. Now you're at this point where if he 610 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: was shot in the face, you might be dealing with 611 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: massive skull fracture that's going on. There's no more soft 612 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: tissue to hold it together. We're talking multiple years down range, 613 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: so it could be lying down there in multiple parts. Well, 614 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: guess what. A rodent will take the smaller bits of bone, 615 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 1: like the table of the skull, and if they've got 616 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: a hole, say in the wall of that crypt, they 617 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: will literally take that back to their nest and they'll 618 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 1: gnaw on it. Possums do this all the time out 619 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: in the woods with bone possums and raccoons. They'll haul 620 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: bits of bone off to their little nest, their little 621 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: areas where they live, and they'll feast on this. And 622 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: you'll wind up missing bits of bone out there with 623 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: skeletons that have been down for a protracted period of time. 624 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the reasons like we rarely find, 625 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: for instance, like hyoid bones, those boys and bones in 626 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: the neck that everybody's always going on about, because it's 627 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: very fragile, it's very tiny, and so that would be 628 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: prime for say an animal to grab hold of and 629 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: they haul it away. Well, if the hyoid is missing, 630 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 1: for instance, and say just some generic case out there 631 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: and you're thinking, wow, is this a homicide, Was this 632 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 1: a strangulation or something? I need to see if it 633 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: was fractured, it's not there well, you got to check 634 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: that off the list. You can't check it. That's a problem. 635 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: You can't prove it. So with his skull, with the 636 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:28,479 Speaker 1: skeletal remains, what you're looking for is even after death, 637 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: if you have the totality of the skull, you can 638 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: still put it together all right, and you'll use wax 639 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: or clay kind of to seal it up many times, 640 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: and you can appreciate the form of it, and you 641 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: can also appreciate if there are any defects in the skull. 642 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: So if he's shot in the forehead, for instance, that's 643 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 1: going to have internal beveling. So you think about a 644 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: beveled glass. The interior of that bone is blown out 645 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: and it's beveled on the inside. It's smooth on the outside, 646 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: and it's just the opposite if it exit, If it 647 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: exits out of the back of the head externally, you'll 648 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: have it external beveling, but the interior of the skull 649 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: will be smooth where the whole passes through. So that's 650 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: how we determine where a skeleton or with a skull, 651 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: which one is the entrance versus exit. And then is 652 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: it a throw and through wound. You know, I've picked 653 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: up skulls before and kind of shook them a little bit. 654 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 1: And you can actually hear a projectile rattling around inside 655 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: the cranial vault, which for us we get excited about 656 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,479 Speaker 1: because we've got to project all there. 657 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: So you've got, in this case, combination of good old 658 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 2: police work going to your local biker gang and breaking 659 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 2: it down. But when they get down the crypt, they 660 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: find what they're looking for, but they find something they 661 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: didn't even know was there. And that's where the forensics 662 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 2: really had to go into overdrive to figure out who 663 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 2: this guy is. Even though they had a story from 664 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: different individuals in the gang in the club, they still 665 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 2: had to prove who he was, and eventually they did 666 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 2: so David Rizzolo and Keith Columbo both were able to 667 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 2: be put to rest. 668 00:35:58,160 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: That's the key to it all. At the end of 669 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,319 Speaker 1: the day, I can't help but think though that with 670 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: the investigators that were out there when they found Keith 671 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,880 Speaker 1: Palombo's remained, there was a certain amount of relief. Obviously 672 00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: they'd been speaking with the family, but always in the 673 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: back of their mind they're thinking, how are we going 674 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 1: to make sense of this? Because this is the ultimate 675 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,279 Speaker 1: puzzle isn't it when you have one individual that you're 676 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: looking for and suddenly, is almost like some kind of 677 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:36,320 Speaker 1: sick bonus, you find the skeletal remains of another homicide victim. 678 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,240 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs.