1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, This is part two of our Newsweek Marriage episode. 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend 3 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: starting there. Susie, I feel like we need to pause 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: for a moment and spend a little time talking about us, 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: because I couldn't help but wonder are we desperate single women? 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 2: Good Carrie Bradshaw reference. 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: That's us and part one, where we unraveled the lasting 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: panic over a nineteen eighty six Newsweek cover story that 9 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: claimed a woman over forty was more likely to be 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: killed by a terrorist than to get married. 11 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: But guess what we kind of are those women? 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: So we thought we'd spend a bit more time talking 13 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: about us, our views on marriage, some of its history, 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: and how the way we define modern day partnership has changed. 15 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Banacarum. This is in Retrospect, 16 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the 17 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: past that shaped us. 18 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 2: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. 19 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: We're talking about that sensational nineteen eighties cover story from Newsweek, 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: but we're also talking about the enduring myth it tapped into, 21 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: that of the desperate single woman. 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 3: This is part two. Okay, So here we are, Susie. 23 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: I'm now married at forty you, of course are partner 24 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: but not married. 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 26 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 4: It's so funny because I never really know how to 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 4: describe Mike. Who is you know, I guess my boyfriend, 28 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 4: but feels like a little silly at my age to 29 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 4: be like, this is my boyfriend. But when I say partnered, 30 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 4: I feel like people are also very confused by that 31 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 4: because that's not really a I don't know, it's not 32 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 4: very common vernacular. 33 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 2: So I guess I'll just refer to him as my 34 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: lover from now. 35 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: Oh my god. Yeah, there's not a great word. Husband 36 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: is also a disgusting word that I refuse to use. 37 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: I say spouse, oh okay, or I sometimes say partner, 38 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: which is what I said before. 39 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 4: I definitely say I have a partner, but I don't know, 40 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 4: but partnered feels weird, like I'm partnered, you know? 41 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: Oh right, I'm partnered anyhow? Yes, But do you feel 42 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: pressure to marry me? 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: No? 44 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 4: No, I mean I think there are a couple of 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 4: things is that for me? First of all, I don't 46 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 4: like weddings, which people find very weird. But I was 47 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 4: in so many weddings and I remember saying that once 48 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 4: to someone and they were like, that's such a humble brag. 49 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 2: I'm like, it's not a humble brag, Like I spent 50 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: all my money. 51 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 3: In my being Like no one wants to Yeah, no 52 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 3: one wants a wedding. 53 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: All the dresses are tons of thousands of Its. 54 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 4: Kind of like a forced fun event, Like you're like, here, 55 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 4: we are spending thousands of dollars on this weekend with 56 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 4: people I generally don't know. So I'm not that into 57 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: weddings to start with. I never dreamed of some big wedding. 58 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 4: But also, you know, I'm not planning on having kids. 59 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 4: So for me, I really struggle to figure out what 60 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 4: the difference is between us living together and getting married. 61 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,399 Speaker 2: Like, I guess tax. 62 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 4: Breaks is what everyone says to me, But that just 63 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 4: feels like a weird reason to do something that we 64 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 4: don't feel super compelled either of us to do. 65 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: Did you feel pressured to get married? No? 66 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: And in fact, for a long time I was really 67 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: anti marriage. I mean, honestly, I still am. I just 68 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: happened to have done it at some point. I mean, 69 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: I really don't think that I or we felt this 70 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: pressure and to some degree, I would argue it was 71 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: the opposite, Like in our worlds, being partnered too early 72 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: was really looked down upon, and it was like, well, 73 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: don't you want to establish your career first, Like don't 74 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: you want to be an independent first? Like don't you 75 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: want to think for yourself? Like why would you want 76 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: to attach yourself to someone else? So quote unquote young, 77 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: which like in New York Sanders it was like for 78 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: exactly yeah. But so I was engaged for like forty 79 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: five minutes in my late twenties. 80 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: I don't think I knew that. 81 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean basically I ended up breaking it off 82 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: after the forty five minutes because I had a total 83 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: panic attack and my ring finger swelled up so that 84 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't get to the ring. 85 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: Off of it to give it back. 86 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: Seriously, Yes, So I wrote a modern love column about 87 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: how do I. 88 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 2: Not know about any of this? Now I'm gonna have 89 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 2: to go find your modern. 90 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 3: Love call you can go, you can google it. 91 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 1: When I started dating my current spouse, I was like, 92 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: just so you know, like I wrote this Modern love, 93 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: you might want to google, like everything you need to 94 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: know is there, so like, just you know, spare me 95 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: having to explain it. 96 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 2: See that's why Sam was great. It was like, this 97 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 2: does not scare me. 98 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've had a long time to unpack that, and 99 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: like why I panicked and why my finger swelled up 100 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: because it honestly, like it wasn't that I didn't love him, 101 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: it was that suddenly flashing before my eyes were these 102 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,839 Speaker 1: images of like being a domestic and being like chained 103 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: to the kitchen, and like, I don't know, somehow this 104 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: like antiquated notion of being a wife and giving up 105 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: this career that I had like barely just gotten my 106 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: footing in, none of which were things that he would 107 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: have expected nor I would have done. But there is 108 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: so much baggage when it comes to that for. 109 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 3: Women, Yes, especially hetero marriage exactly. 110 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: And that's the thing, like we all know, no matter 111 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: how progressive you are, no matter how much eff you 112 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: put into it, like heterosexual marriage is not good for women, 113 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: especially if you have children. 114 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 4: I mean, it's when salaries dip, it's when women start 115 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 4: pulling the backbreaking double shift of working inside and outside 116 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 4: the home, and then eventually they care for their parents. 117 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 4: Like we just expect so much of women, and marriage 118 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 4: feels like a part of that. I mean, it's interesting 119 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 4: because I remember in my twenties I had a guy 120 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 4: friend say to me, like, you think of being married 121 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 4: as taking something away, but it's like it's adding something. 122 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,920 Speaker 2: And I was like, yeah, for you, but is that 123 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: true for me. 124 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 4: I don't know, like it will take away for from 125 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 4: some of the things I want to do in my 126 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 4: twenties in my thirties, so not only did I not 127 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 4: get married, I also didn't find a really serious partner 128 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 4: until I was in my forties because I think I 129 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 4: just always saw it as a distraction. And it wasn't 130 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 4: because I was this like hard bitten career woman. It 131 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 4: was because I just didn't prioritize that. Like I remember 132 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 4: sort of one day waking up and looking around and 133 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 4: being like, oh, everybody got married, and I just didn't. 134 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 4: That didn't occur to me as a necessity in my life, 135 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 4: which I do think makes us fairly unusual. I mean, 136 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 4: you were kind of an anti marriage cell it it 137 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 4: sounds like. 138 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so after that happened, it was like 139 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: I really really dug my heels in. And this was 140 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: also right around the time that you know, the Defense 141 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: of Marriage Act was being challenged and I was covering 142 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: gay marriage for Newsweek, and I really felt like I 143 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: didn't want to take this right that I didn't even 144 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: really want when so many others couldn't happen, And so 145 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: I ended up. So this goes back to my news 146 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: Week days, but I ended up with a friend and 147 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: colleague writing this cover story for Newsweek called I don't 148 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: the case against marriage. Now you can imagine that my 149 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: recently broken off engagement. 150 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: But still I. 151 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: Did not love this at the time, but that level right, 152 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: But that article basically made the case that, like, aside 153 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: from yes, maybe tax benefits and of course some things 154 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: that come with parenting or end of life decisions, like 155 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: arguably with enough money and lawyers and privilege, you could 156 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: figure those things out without a marriage certificate. And so 157 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: what for women was the actual reason to want to 158 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: get married? Like there are all of these things working 159 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: against you. And if you really start digging into the 160 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: history of marriage, which I did, and I'm obsessed with 161 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: Stephanie Kootz. She's a professor, she's like the preeminent historian 162 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: of marriage. She's written all these books on it. Through 163 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: a feminist lens, you start to realize just how how 164 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: sexist an institution. It is like marriage literally began as 165 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: an economic contract because women didn't have rights or. 166 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: Right well, I mean in a lot of ways. 167 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: It was also the only way to secure your financial future, 168 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 4: right you literally had to have a husband to have 169 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 4: your own credit card until like what the seventies. 170 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: Nineteen seventy three. Yes, it's so really, marriage was how women, Yes, 171 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: they had financial security. It was like how they got 172 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,239 Speaker 1: the fathers of their children to stick around. In some cases, 173 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: it was how they gain access to all sorts of 174 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: legal rights, including yes, getting something as simple as getting 175 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: a credit card. 176 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 3: And you know, so there was. 177 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: That side of it, but culturally too, like for a 178 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:42,959 Speaker 1: long time, and I think this still persists in some 179 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: circles today. The worst thing a woman could be was 180 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: a spinster. Yeah, like that was the term for an 181 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: unmarried woman that has been used against single women since 182 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: the dawn of time. And I think back to the 183 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: Newsweek article, not my but the one about the terrorism 184 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: and marriage line was part of the fear that that 185 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: was tapping into. 186 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting because I feel like the concept of 187 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 4: being a spinster, at least for me, sort of evokes 188 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 4: like an old timey kind of like ant you know. 189 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 4: So what's interesting is they took this thing that was 190 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 4: already considered like not great, but they made it like 191 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 4: more sad and pathetic. It was like suddenly it was 192 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 4: like a woman with a lot of cats, like knitting 193 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,560 Speaker 4: in her room by herself, which, like, you know, if 194 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 4: you think of someone like Emily Dickinson, she was, I 195 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: guess technically a spinster, but she's not described as this 196 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 4: like sad, lonely, pathetic person. 197 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 2: I mean, she was like one of the greatest poets 198 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 2: of our time. 199 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: Well, and I think a lot of the great women 200 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: in history were in fact spinster because they couldn't be married, 201 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: because they had to focus on their art or their 202 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: career or fighting for the right to vote, and like 203 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: they couldn't have a husband getting in the way of that, 204 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: which literally would get in the way in that time. 205 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: And Okay, I don't want to I get us too 206 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: off track here, but I like just need to for 207 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: the record, give a little history lesson on spinsters. So, okay, 208 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: spinster a word that actually comes from women who spun 209 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: wool in the Middle Ages, which was one of the 210 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: only jobs, or one of a few jobs, and a 211 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: low paying job that was available for unmarried women. So 212 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: like that's where the un spinning I'm not valued or 213 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: so exactly. And so because of that, the term came 214 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: to be shorthand and then ultimately a real legal term 215 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: for an unmarried woman, which eventually morphed into a pejorative. 216 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: And so if you look back when women were fighting 217 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: for the right to vote, and you look at all 218 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: of the like suffrage posters and the anti suffrage posters, 219 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 1: those who were arguing against suffrage, against the right to vote, 220 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: would put out all this propaganda basically painting the suffragists 221 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 1: as these old, ugly man hating, like unf suckable spinsters essentially, 222 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: and so it was like, oh, you women, you don't 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: want to be one of those spinsters, so like, stick 224 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: with us, don't gain any right. 225 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 2: I mean, it's interesting, right. 226 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 4: Because it makes me think of all the sort of 227 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 4: like pride and prejudice, like that whole genre, which is 228 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 4: the reason you're ugly and unfuckable if you're a spinsters, 229 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 4: because so much of your currency is literally how you 230 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: physically look and whether or not you're going to be 231 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 4: able to land amand based on that, because it's not 232 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 4: like you get to know each other. In a lot 233 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 4: of cases, you're basically like you meet a few times 234 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: and then you get married. So there's just this like 235 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 4: common idea that if you're at all attractive, you're not 236 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 4: going to be sitting home by yourself, which is also 237 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 4: just like an interesting and fascinating way to think about 238 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 4: why women choose to be single. 239 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: Yes, and actually is to bring it back to that 240 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: Newsweek article, I think that's what this is tapping into, 241 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: Like this is really where you start to see this enduring, 242 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: persistent tension between having a career and having a family 243 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: and this idea that you have to choose, and all 244 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,959 Speaker 1: the way up until two thousand and nine or whatever 245 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: year it was that I was briefly engaged to this person, 246 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: Like still in my mind, that was the tension. I 247 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: couldn't do both right, And things have changed somewhat though, right, 248 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: Like yeah, I mean there's been huge change since the 249 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. So in nineteen eighty six when the article 250 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 1: came out, the average age of marriage was about twenty 251 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: four years old in the United States. Now it's thirty, 252 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: which still seems young to like those of us in 253 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: urban areas like New York. I think something like seven 254 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: percent of adults in the United States identify as queer. 255 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: That number is higher among gen Z. 256 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: And the average age of marriage four non hetero couples 257 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: is older. It's thirty three for women, thirty eighty for men. So, like, 258 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: you know, this is all happening. Things are shifting less 259 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,839 Speaker 1: people are getting married overall, and I think this is 260 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: why you have books like I don't know, if you 261 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: read Rebecca Traster's All the Single Ladies, it was about 262 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: the political power of single women is huge because there 263 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: are many. 264 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think also now there's like a slightly 265 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 4: different version of being single, which is the auntie, like 266 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 4: the fun aunt who's like has some money to spare 267 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 4: and is like that that sort of thing about being 268 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 4: an auntie, which is I am very much like as 269 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 4: you know, committed aunt or or I don't know I 270 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 4: say that word, but you know, I think that's become 271 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 4: kind of like a fun alternative to this idea of 272 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 4: the spinster, which we didn't really have before. 273 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 2: That's like really emerged in the last ten years. 274 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: That's so true, that is, that's an alternative to the spinster. 275 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: But the amount of discussion and inks billed to the 276 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: question of having it all is like absurd at this point, 277 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: And I even remember, like, in subtle ways, I mean, Okay, 278 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: how long ago is this. This might have been a 279 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: decade ago, but I was reporting a story for Cosmo, 280 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: specifically about women who hid their achievements in online dating 281 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: because they worried that they wouldn't get dates. These were 282 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: heterosid women, straight women, and they basically were like, I'm 283 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: fun and flirty and like I like to go to 284 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: the beach, I love travel, and like Coca Cola, rather 285 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: than like, I'm an executive actually at a law for 286 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: or whatever, which was their real title, because they just 287 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: weren't getting as many matches. And then since then there's 288 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: been all this data and research into it, and like, yes, 289 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: that's true. 290 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 3: They weren't crazy to be worried. 291 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 4: What's funny is it reminds me that around that time 292 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 4: there was a little bit of a moment where they 293 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 4: were doing a lot of these stories about like what 294 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: to do if you made more money, like how to 295 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 4: deal with that when you were dating? And I remember 296 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 4: reading in something it might have been furnished to Robbie's 297 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 4: book when she makes more that there was a woman 298 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 4: who would literally buy tickets to go to the movies 299 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 4: but pretend she'd been given them for free at work 300 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 4: so as not to like intimidate her boyfriend. 301 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 5: Oh and I. 302 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 4: Remember just being like that is the saddest, weirdest thing. 303 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 4: And this also kind of reminds me of that Steve 304 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 4: Harvey book that became an movie like Act like a Lady, 305 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 4: Think Like a Man. 306 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 2: The movie was called Think Like a Man. 307 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 4: I remember there's a character in that who is like 308 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 4: a ceo, I think, and she's dating a chef, which 309 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 4: is sort of ironic because I'm actually with a baker. 310 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 4: And it's this whole thing where people are like, don't 311 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 4: freak him out, let him be the man, like you know, 312 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 4: and it's like, I don't know, I have to be honest, 313 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 4: Like that's never been an issue in my relationship with Mike, 314 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 4: Like he just doesn't care. It's not that he is 315 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 4: like doesn't care about my career or doesn't support it, 316 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 4: but he's not intimidated by it because he's just like 317 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 4: happy for me. 318 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 2: And that's what your partners should be. It shouldn't be that. 319 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 4: You have to like hide your achievements so that like 320 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 4: you can cater to some man's ego. That's not going 321 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 4: to work long term anyway. Like that's not a relationship 322 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 4: that's gonna work, right. 323 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: I remember interviewing this friend of mine who is now 324 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: married to someone entirely different, but she got this big 325 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: promotion at work and she's making much more money than 326 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: her male partner, and she said to me, I've started 327 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: giving more blowjobs since I was more money as some 328 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: sort of and like kedn't asked that, you know, but 329 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: like some sort of internal thing that was like I 330 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: don't know, I have to like make. 331 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: Up for this. 332 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I owe him anyway. So, like, you know, this 333 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: is tapping into real things. But I also think that 334 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: even from ten years ago, the culture has really really shifted. 335 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think to some degree, like when 336 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 4: you look at something like Sex in the City, I 337 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 4: feel like it's kind of a good example of something 338 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 4: that started as one thing, which was very much a 339 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 4: show about for women desperately trying to like land men 340 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 4: and really like focused on their dating, and over time 341 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 4: has kind of morphed into a series about you know, 342 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 4: the value of female friendship and sort of its enduring 343 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 4: presence in your life and how whether or not. Your 344 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: relationships come and go, you always have each other. And 345 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 4: that's definitely not what the series was initially intended to be. 346 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 4: It was meant to sort of glamorize the sort of 347 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: twenty something Manhattan single and that it was okay to 348 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 4: want to have sex and to want it. 349 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: To be good. Yeah. 350 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're right, like, to a large extent, 351 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: Sex and the City was a show about friendship, and 352 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: it did a lot for making singleedom sheet. But I 353 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: do think about how even in that show at the 354 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: end of the series they all end up partnered. Samantha 355 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 1: then breaks up with that hot younger guy whose name 356 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: I'm forgetting and has that amazing line I love you, 357 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: but I love me more. 358 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: So it's new that's in the movie. 359 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 4: So it's like, I think it's interesting also that the 360 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 4: series kind of ends with them all partnered, and then right, 361 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 4: the movies actually kind of unraveled. 362 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: A few years later. Yeah, so I mean maybe that 363 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 3: does show something for. 364 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: The time, like a little bit of progress. 365 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,920 Speaker 4: And now, I mean, obviously now this Indian Nixon character, 366 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 4: Miranda is queer, which is. 367 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 3: I mean, finally, like obviously we knew. 368 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 2: That they like added women of color. 369 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 4: You know, it's a whole new world in this new version, 370 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 4: which is called and just like that, I think on HBO, 371 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 4: which I'm saying like I didn't watch it, but like 372 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 4: to be clear, I watched it and I will be 373 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 4: watching the next season. 374 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: So I guess the real. 375 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 4: Question, Jess is you who were so against marriage? 376 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 2: How did you end up getting married in the end? 377 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: Great question, Susie, and I won't answer that question. After 378 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: the break We'll be right back, Okay. So going back 379 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: to my modern love call not to be like hide 380 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: my Modern Love Gone. 381 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 2: No, I'm very excited to read it now. 382 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: But part of the whole thing was, so I broke 383 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: off this engagement. 384 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 3: We stayed together. I thought we were happy. 385 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: Turned out he could never get over the broken engagement, 386 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 1: and so when we finally did break up, he just 387 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: dumped me. It was on New Year's say, oh god, anyway, 388 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: I've worked through it in therapy, but after eight years 389 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: it was just like I'm done, I'm out. We had 390 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: just thrown away all of our suitcases because we lived 391 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 1: in like a tiny studio apartment in these village, so 392 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: we had no suitcases. So he was like, this is over, 393 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: and then like couldn't pack up any of his. 394 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,719 Speaker 2: I'm just figuring him with like garbage bags. 395 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 3: Like yeah, I mean that's basically what happened. 396 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,880 Speaker 1: But part of the modern love calm was like, at 397 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: the time my friend Jesse Ellison and I were writing 398 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: this anti marriage article, we remember her mom saying to us, well, 399 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: one thing about marriage is it makes it harder for 400 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,200 Speaker 1: the person to leave. 401 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: And we were like, oh, that's so panthetic. Like we 402 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 3: were like, you know, I can't believe it. Yeah, exactly. 403 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: And but then when this was happening to me, I 404 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: was like, wow, so after eight years you can just 405 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: overnight walk out, like you know, it's tempted couples therapy 406 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: know anything. And I remember thinking to myself, like, I 407 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,520 Speaker 1: guess if we were married, we maybe would have had 408 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: a conversation about it, maybe we would have separated. 409 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 2: I don't know. 410 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: So that's sort of. 411 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 2: Where this legal entanglement. 412 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 3: So that's sort of where this modern love calm ends. 413 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 3: So I don't know. 414 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: At a certain point, I felt like I was established 415 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: in my career, I had written a book like all 416 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,479 Speaker 1: of these things, and I felt much more comfortable in 417 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: my independent self that I felt ready to get married 418 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: to this person who is a very progressive human who 419 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: wasn't going to buy into so much of the bullshit 420 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,400 Speaker 1: around weddings. 421 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: You didn't really have like a super traditional wedding. 422 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: I went to great less to plan like an epic 423 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: party that had none of the trappings of utterly sexist 424 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 1: wedding institutions, which, by the way, let me just name 425 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: the father gives away his daughter like that was because 426 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 1: he was literally giving owners right, so you couldn't do that. 427 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: I have a great relationship with my dad. He did 428 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: not walk me down the aisle. We walked ourselves down. 429 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't really an aisle. The bride's family typically pays 430 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: for the wedding. That's sort of like a dowry. 431 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: A dowry. 432 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 3: No, we were established in our careers. We split the cost. 433 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 1: We had one of my best friends, Amanda, officiate our 434 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: wedding and she quoted glorious tone in it. But you 435 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: typically declare someone man and wife, like man always comes 436 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: first first of all, and then it's wife, so like 437 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: the man is still a human, independent person and the 438 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: woman is now just a wife, like is she in service? 439 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 4: There's that line about honoring and obeying and I always 440 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 4: foune that weird, Like I'm not obeying it. 441 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: It's so weird, and even like the wearing of white, 442 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: like that's literally to represent purity. 443 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: Why do people see like I never do which like they. 444 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 2: Never know anymore. Let's just be honest, it's crazy. 445 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: And like obviously I didn't take my husband's last naye, 446 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: so like I didn't do any of this. 447 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: Don you also go down the aisle to like a 448 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 2: smashing Pumpkin song? 449 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: Yes, we did. 450 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: We walked ourselves together down to a smashing Moment song. 451 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 3: It was it was a grunge wedding. 452 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: We also instead of I don't know if this is 453 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: cheesy at this point because now like everyone's California sober 454 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: and doing like microdosing, but instead of choosing chicken or 455 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: fish or whatever you do it normal weddings, we had. 456 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: People choose their drug of Oh I did it, and 457 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 3: give backs. 458 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 2: What was the primary drug of choice? 459 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 3: Just out of curious microdosing mushrooms? 460 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense to basically everyone did it like 461 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: my parents. 462 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 2: Really I love that and also that would not be 463 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 2: my family. 464 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: It was a desert When it was a desert wedding, 465 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: I was like oh, very happy. But as we were 466 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: planning this, it was just so interesting and funny to 467 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: like come across all of the little origin stories for 468 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: these things that most. 469 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 3: People I know still do, even like the throwing of 470 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 3: the book. 471 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: So my big planet was that I was going to 472 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: get like a poisonous cactus bouquet. Our wedding was in 473 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: the desert, is in josuit tree, and so that I 474 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,679 Speaker 1: was going to be like, don't you dare tell me 475 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: to throw this anyway? 476 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 3: I didn't. I didn't have a book here. 477 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 4: Thinking about me was that when I was single, I 478 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 4: refused to participate in that ritual. I found it so degraded, 479 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 4: like want to catch this bouquet and people are like, 480 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: oh god it. 481 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 3: I was like, no, that's so weird. 482 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: I wrote a story about this one I don't know, 483 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: in like the Twenty Times or something about how the 484 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: new thing that I was noticing this was the time 485 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 1: I was going to two million weddings, was they would 486 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: do the book Katos and everyone would like run away exactly, 487 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: and it would just like thud On wanted to catch 488 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:15,399 Speaker 1: the fucking. 489 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 2: Role stand in the middle of the room and be like, 490 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: no one wanted. 491 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 3: To get married. 492 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: A few years ago, I was doing a piece about 493 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: Helen Fisher. She's an anthropologist who studies love. She's written 494 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of books, and part of her research has 495 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: found that, you know, monogamy is not natural essentially, and 496 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: that couples and partnerships often tend to go in stages 497 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,959 Speaker 1: of like seven I think it's around seven years. It's 498 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: like the seven years and exactly. Yeah, I guess that's 499 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: probably where that comes from. And so it's us who've 500 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: created this necessity for this idea of together forever. 501 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: And she. 502 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: Was married at the time and actually live next door 503 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: to her husband. 504 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: So this is actually one of my dreams. 505 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,400 Speaker 4: Honestly, I always wanted this, Like, I mean, I think 506 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,479 Speaker 4: Mike thinks this is crazy, so we're definitely not going 507 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 4: to do this. But like my dream is to live 508 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 4: in apartments, like either next door to each other or 509 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 4: across from each other, because I feel like then you 510 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 4: just both get to have your own space. And also 511 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,199 Speaker 4: I think it's a New York fantasy, right because if 512 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 4: you have a big house, fine, but right in New York, 513 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 4: like in an apartment, you're. 514 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: You know, it's tight. 515 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, So you do kind of wish you had this 516 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 4: way to like own your own little piece of the world, 517 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 4: and that's definitely something that's complicated for me. I mean 518 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,360 Speaker 4: even with getting married, Like I own my apartment. This 519 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 4: apartment is probably my greatest achievement, if we're just being honest, 520 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: Like what it took for me to be able to 521 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 4: buy this apartment was you know, a lot of work 522 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,919 Speaker 4: and sacrifice. So it's hard for me to imagine leaving 523 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,919 Speaker 4: this apartment, even though that's like a choice I might 524 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 4: have to make to be in a relationship. 525 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: Like or maybe you don't, Like I think that's the thing, 526 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 1: Like you can really create your own version of family today, 527 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 1: and it's like choose your own adventure and like go 528 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: for it. 529 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 4: It just does feel like there are lots of ways 530 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 4: to have family now, and. 531 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 3: There are lots of ways to have family and chosen family. 532 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 2: Yes, chosen family. 533 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: Actually, Susie, I thought it would be interesting to bring 534 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: Searon on Sean Attia, one of our producers on this 535 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: podcast Slash our Friend, because she has a pretty interesting 536 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: domestic arrangement that we can let her talk about. 537 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 5: Hi Searon, Hi, Hi Sharon. Hello, Hello, It's so nice 538 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 5: to be unmuted. 539 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: Amazing so you have a I think what you would 540 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: call life partner slash chosen family in m your room. 541 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 3: Yes, could you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely, so, Susie. 542 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 5: I don't think you've met em yet, but we were 543 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 5: randomly assigned freshman year roommates, so we owe a lot 544 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 5: of credit to the NYU Housing Department and we have 545 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 5: never lived with anyone else ever since. We're hitting our 546 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 5: tenure anniversary this August. 547 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: I got the invite for the party. 548 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's going to be lit. We are I can't 549 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 3: believe I said lit. 550 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 5: We are very much treating this kind of like a wedding, 551 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 5: but not a wedding. 552 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 3: There's going to be merch. 553 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 5: If people want to give us gifts, I would prefer 554 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 5: money so we could go on a trip. 555 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 3: I've offered to officiate just in case you decide you 556 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 3: totally no. 557 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 5: But I really do think that that kind of speaks 558 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 5: to our relationship in that over the last ten years, 559 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 5: even our closest friends and family are sort of confused 560 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 5: as to what the relationship is. They're like, okay, your 561 00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 5: roommates and your best friends, but are you more than that? 562 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 3: Like, is there an asterisk or a plus there, And 563 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 3: I think. 564 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 5: Part of that is because we both came out in 565 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,600 Speaker 5: college and so then people are like, oh, you actually 566 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 5: could be really together, but then we confuse them more 567 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 5: because we're not. And I always joke that if we 568 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 5: were actually together, why would we be paying rent for 569 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 5: a two bedroom in New York? Why wouldn't we jump 570 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,239 Speaker 5: do like a one bedroom. 571 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,479 Speaker 3: I mean the way you've described it, like, it's not 572 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: just plent like it's right more right? Yeah, I think absolutely, 573 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 3: it's more than that. I think we go on dates. 574 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 5: We factor each other into life plans, we plan these 575 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 5: big trips together. We're always invited together to things like 576 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 5: not even as a plus one both people, even if 577 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 5: it's only one of our friends. 578 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: Do you guys go on dates with other people too? 579 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 4: Or do you consider this like the primary relationship in 580 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 4: your life? 581 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 5: Oh like, do we romantically date people outside of the 582 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 5: two of us? 583 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: Yes? 584 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 5: Yes, but no we kind of famously like don't really 585 00:27:58,760 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 5: care about dating. 586 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 3: Occasionally. I go on dates, not really. 587 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 5: I think the way I think about it is either 588 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 5: I go on a shitty date where like maybe there're sparks, 589 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 5: but it's probably like awkward and the small talks mediocre, 590 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 5: or I get to hang out with my favorite person 591 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 5: and do life like they're an amazing chef. We might 592 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 5: go to a restaurant we've been wanting to go see 593 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 5: a play, like I just I think I have the 594 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 5: ideal setup. 595 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 3: And the that's an amazing cook. By the way, Yes, 596 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 3: I have a question. 597 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 4: We don't have to use if it's too personal, but like, no, 598 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 4: do you but don't you miss sex? 599 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: Oh? 600 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 3: I mean I have sex? 601 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: No. 602 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 5: I definitely date and stuff with like the idea of 603 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 5: like looking for someone where it's like and that person's 604 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 5: going to be like my best friend and my lover 605 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 5: right and we're going to live together. I just don't 606 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 5: really view relationships and that sort of hierarchy, and so 607 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 5: I don't pook like romance as like the top of it. 608 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 5: And I just haven't found my person yet. I actually 609 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 5: feel really fulfilled by my relationships. And when I date people, 610 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 5: they absolutely feel intimidated and threatened by say right, oh 611 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 5: big time. And I don't even like do anything to 612 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 5: appease that person. I'm like, yeah, absolutely, You're like. 613 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 3: This is the setup, this is my primary person. 614 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that though about not putting kind 615 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: of like all your eggs in one but like you 616 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: can get different things from different people, because if you 617 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: actually look at the history of marriage, like this idea 618 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: of a soulmate and all encompassing soulmate is a relatively 619 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: new invention. Yeah, definitely, Like it didn't used to be 620 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: that you were supposed to find one all fulfilling person 621 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: for every aspect of your life sexually, romantically, friendship, intellectual stimulation, 622 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 1: and so. 623 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: On some level. For women, you weren't supposed to get 624 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 2: those things. 625 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 4: It was like nobody gave a shit whether or not 626 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 4: you felt romantic, you had a soul Like they were like, this. 627 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: Is what you do is pay your bills. 628 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: But there was some time in between when and it 629 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: became like you are looking for everything and it's actually 630 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: I mean, I think like from the time of my 631 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 1: broken off long term relationship to the time of my 632 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: present relationship and marriage, I sort of got more comfortable 633 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: with the idea that like, my girlfriends are my like 634 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: intellectual stimulations, like there who I got, ye, Like my 635 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: husband doesn't need to fulfill all of that. 636 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, that's even want that I mean I think 637 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 2: for me. 638 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 4: Also, I was single for a long time before I 639 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 4: found a partner, and I just wouldn't want to have 640 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 4: the kind of partner who wanted to go with me 641 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 4: to everything and be with me like that wouldn't be 642 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 4: appealing to me because so much of my friendships are 643 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 4: about like the relationship I have with that person on 644 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 4: my own. I don't want someone else to be inserted 645 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 4: in every single aspect of my life. 646 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: Sean, do you feel pressure to marry at any point? 647 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: And explain how you explain your relationship with them to 648 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: your immigrant parents. 649 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it was really hard helpful that they 650 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,239 Speaker 5: sort of met M as my roommate, you know what 651 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 5: I mean, And so I think you're the first. Yeah, 652 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 5: and so for the very first year they were just like, 653 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 5: we're so happy that she's far away in New York, 654 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 5: but that she has a best friend and like has 655 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 5: created a family. And I call EM's family like my 656 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 5: in laws, and they live on the East Coast, so 657 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 5: I actually go visit them often more sometimes than flying 658 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 5: out to LA and I have a really close relationship 659 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 5: with them. But yeah, how do I describe it to 660 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 5: my friends and family? I think sometimes I think it's hilarious, 661 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:31,959 Speaker 5: the murkiness. 662 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 3: So every year on our anniversary. 663 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 5: I post something and my sister will get a call 664 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 5: from an aunt or an uncle or a message from 665 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 5: a cousin every year led clockwork, and they'll be like, Okay, 666 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 5: but are they because I mean I'll post like a 667 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 5: very romantic caption photo. I'll be like, I love our 668 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 5: life together, the life we've built, you know things that 669 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 5: like I think straight people, straight girls maybe aren't posting 670 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 5: about their friendships. But yeah, I think there's murkiness. And 671 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 5: I find a lot of humor in the confusion and 672 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 5: confusing people in terms of feeling pressure to have a wedding. 673 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 5: I am, to my core a middle child, and I 674 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 5: mean that in that it has seeped into every part 675 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 5: of my personality. And so my older sister has been 676 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 5: with her partner and husband now for fifteen years, and 677 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 5: they were like high school sweethearts, and when they were 678 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 5: getting married, I very much kind of looked at my 679 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 5: parents and maybe also said something where I was like, 680 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 5: get this out of your system, like this is the 681 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 5: wedding where you invite the uncles and that guy was 682 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 5: a lawyer for you on that one deal. Because even 683 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 5: if I get married someday, which I'm not closed off to, 684 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 5: but I have no goals to get married. 685 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: I'm not like by thirty or forty. 686 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 5: Yeah, but I'm also like the only out queer person 687 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 5: in my ginormous family, and so people just don't ask me. 688 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 3: Questions about marriage. 689 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 5: So if anything, I think if I said yes, they'd 690 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 5: be like, oh fuck, like we love her so much? 691 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 3: What does that mean? Like is it going to be 692 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: a gay wedding? 693 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 694 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 5: And so I'm the fun aunt, like I'm the fun cousin, 695 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 5: I'm the fun granddaughter. 696 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 697 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: And whether or not I have a big party like 698 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 3: I don't. 699 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: And you're about to coming up? Yeah, I mean okay. 700 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: So to like to bring it back to the Newsweek's story, 701 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: I think probably a lot of us would just kind 702 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: of shrug or roll our eyes if that headline were 703 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: to come out today. 704 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 5: But Sean, what would your reaction? I think I would 705 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 5: just probably be deep in sharing all of the hilarious 706 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 5: memes and falling along on TikTok and Twitter. I also 707 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,239 Speaker 5: think it just feels like a really straight conversation, and 708 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 5: so I think amongst like my queer group chats, we 709 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 5: would just be like, Okay, this changes nothing. 710 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 3: Well, it would be like, are the straights. 711 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, yeah, literally this which it's okay, which we're 712 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 5: asking all the time, or like our streets okay. 713 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 4: I mean it's really debatable whether or not the answer 714 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 4: is like no, I mean generally speaking. 715 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 3: It just wouldn't exist. 716 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: Like like, sure you could find data to show that 717 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: likelihood of women marrying was low, but it would not 718 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: be framed in such a hetero What. 719 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 4: If it was, it would be like on Fox News, 720 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 4: so you'd be like, I don't care what Fox News. 721 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: Says anyway, right, So I think the reality is that 722 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: this headline in retrospect, it's kind of funny and it 723 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't exist today. However, some of that tension around work 724 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: and partnership, whatever the partnership you create for yourself is, 725 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: does still exist. 726 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 4: Well it's interesting because Sharon, the way you're describing your relationship, 727 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 4: it doesn't really exist for you, right, Like you don't 728 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,720 Speaker 4: feel some kind of tension where you have to choose 729 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 4: between having this relationship in your life and work. And 730 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 4: maybe that's just something that is generational. But I think 731 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 4: it's kind of it's heartening to see Sharon feel like 732 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 4: she can just you know, because I think relationships like 733 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 4: this have probably existed in the past, but they weren't. 734 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, they weren't represented. And also right, they. 735 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 4: Felt like they had to pretend to be best friends externally. Right, 736 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 4: that you get to decide what you want from your 737 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 4: life and nobody gets to say and that's. 738 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,839 Speaker 1: Great, honestly, Susie, maybe that's a good place to end it. 739 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,320 Speaker 1: It's like, build the life that you want, lean into 740 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: what your ambition is in whatever way that may play out, 741 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,120 Speaker 1: and like screw the headlines, whether it's coming from Newsweek 742 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: or else. 743 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, all the noise is just noise. Ignore it. This 744 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 2: is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 745 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 4: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 746 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 4: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 747 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 4: us at in retropod at gmail dot com or find 748 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 4: us on Instagram at in retropod. 749 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 3: If you love this podcast, please rate. 750 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: And review us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. 751 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: If you hate it, you can post nasty comments on 752 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,280 Speaker 1: our Instagram, which we may or may not delete. 753 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,800 Speaker 4: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 754 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 4: and at Susie b ny I see also check out 755 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 4: Jessica's books, Feminist Fight, Club and This is eighteen in 756 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 4: Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and The Media. 757 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 758 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 759 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: associate producer. 760 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 4: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 761 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 762 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 2: Our artwork is from Pentagrams. 763 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 4: Additional editing help from Mary Doo and Mike Coscarelli, Sound 764 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 4: correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. 765 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 2: We are your hosts Susie Vannacarum. 766 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 3: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers. 767 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: For even more, check out in retropod dot com. 768 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 3: See you next week.