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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is Buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 2: It's going well? Tenfold more Wicked. Season nine just began,

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Speaker 2: so I'm really excited. It's about this man in eighteen

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Speaker 2: forties England who wants to get away with murder and

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Speaker 2: we'll have to find out if he does, and there's

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Speaker 2: an unusual method about how police are pursuing him, and

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Speaker 2: it makes history. So this is a case that you

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Speaker 2: really can't miss. There's so many twists and turns. It's

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Speaker 2: just a crazy story. It's a great story. But enough

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Speaker 2: about my projects.

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Speaker 1: What's going on?

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Speaker 3: With you, Paul, Well, I'm actually, you know, super excited

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Speaker 3: now out here in Colorado. The weather, even though I

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Speaker 3: mean we're still it still gets cold, we still get

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Speaker 3: some snow. We're really starting to move into the springtime.

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Speaker 3: And it's been so long since I've been able to

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Speaker 3: get out on my mountain bike because I had that

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Speaker 3: shoulder surgery and I kind of risk falling. And now

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Speaker 3: now that I'm well past the year anniversary, the shoulder

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Speaker 3: is getting stronger where I'm being allowed to go out

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Speaker 3: on the trails again. So I'm so looking forward to that.

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Speaker 2: And you have never had a major fall. I know

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Speaker 2: I probably ask you all sorts of catastrophe questions, but

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Speaker 2: you never had a major Because I know people who

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Speaker 2: have flipped over the front of their bikes before.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I most early have done that. I just haven't

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Speaker 3: broken anything doing it yet.

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Speaker 1: Is that what it would take for you to stop

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Speaker 1: doing it?

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Speaker 3: Actually? I think if I were to do a header

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Speaker 3: into a tree or a boulder, that probably is what

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Speaker 3: would do it.

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Speaker 2: So, of the mountaineering type activities in Colorado, what do

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Speaker 2: you enjoy most? Is it the hiking or do you

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Speaker 2: do any whitewater rafting or anything?

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Speaker 3: Well, of course I've gone hiking. I do enjoy that.

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Speaker 3: Have done a couple of times rafting with the family

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Speaker 3: on the Arkansas River. The last time we went out,

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Speaker 3: which was over a year ago, it was pretty good flow. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: we had some really good rapids, you know, really my

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Speaker 3: first experience with and I forget how they great to

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Speaker 3: the rapids, but you know, there were some significant rapids.

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Speaker 3: It was. It was a ton of fun to go

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Speaker 3: down for me, you know, from a fitness standpoint, and

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Speaker 3: just you know, the general enjoyment. Of course, it's the

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Speaker 3: mountain biking, you know, to get out there on the trail. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the challenge it is a shockingly good workout, full body workout,

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Speaker 3: because you're having to use your whole body just to

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Speaker 3: get up and over. You know, it's very rocky on

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Speaker 3: the trails, and some of the trails I go on.

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Speaker 3: But from just a sheer enjoyment, I love taking my

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Speaker 3: jeep out into the back country because I can get

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Speaker 3: to places that you generally, I mean, you're not going

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Speaker 3: to hike out there. You can't, it's too far away. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, my goal is is to get to where

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Speaker 3: you know, I can get to locations and maybe do

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Speaker 3: some overnight camping and just enjoy, you know, I call

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Speaker 3: them my dandelione breaks, you know, just to kind of

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Speaker 3: get away and not you know, have people hitting me

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Speaker 3: up on the cell phone or you know, wanting anything

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Speaker 3: from me. I can just get out and enjoy the nature.

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Speaker 2: When I was growing up, my grandparents had a cabin

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Speaker 2: in Colorado and it was a fly fishing oh cavin,

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Speaker 2: right on a lake. And I tried to fly fish,

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Speaker 2: and it was terrible. And my father, who I adored,

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Speaker 2: was absolutely terrible. I think he was worse than I

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Speaker 2: was at fly fishing. Have you done some fly fishing,

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Speaker 2: because it's really easy to look pretty silly fly fishing

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Speaker 2: if you don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 3: I have not. I can only see myself whipping that

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Speaker 3: hook back right into my forehead.

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Speaker 1: That sounds about right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad that the weather has gotten nice on

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Speaker 2: your end. I'm bracing myself for another Texas summer. But

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Speaker 2: May is pretty nice in Texas. It's probably in the

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Speaker 2: nineties off and on. We don't hit hundreds. But I

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Speaker 2: am hunkered down and ready for some incredibly hot weather.

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Speaker 2: But this, you know, this all is a setup for

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Speaker 2: me to transport you to a much cooler climate than

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Speaker 2: what I'm in right now, which is Scotland. And the story,

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Speaker 2: the historical story that I'm about to tell you, is

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Speaker 2: probably one people haven't heard of before. I had not

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Speaker 2: heard of it, but I find it incredibly interesting because

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Speaker 2: it involves something that I really need your help understanding,

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Speaker 2: which is bitemark evidence.

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Speaker 1: And we haven't really talked about We haven't talked about

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Speaker 1: this yet.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is what they got Monday on and

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Speaker 2: this is when they were initially able to arrest had

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Speaker 2: Monday on was bite mark evidence. And I know it

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Speaker 2: could be good and it could be bad. So I

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Speaker 2: have a lot of photos for you, and I have

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Speaker 2: some to me upsetting crime scene photos, but this will

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Speaker 2: be an interesting case for you.

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Speaker 1: To look at.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, let's get going.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene.

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Speaker 2: This story is happening in the late nineteen sixties in

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Speaker 2: a place called Bigger, Scotland, which is a small town

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Speaker 2: in Scotland and it has a population of between two

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Speaker 2: and three thousand people, not a big place for Bigger,

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Speaker 2: and it's a quaint town, doesn't have a reputation for

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Speaker 2: a lot of violent crime. There is more violent crime

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Speaker 2: happening in Scotland in the late nineteen sixties, which is

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Speaker 2: also the case of the United States. Something dramatic like

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Speaker 2: what I'm about to tell you happening in this area

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Speaker 2: of Scotland would have been pretty unusual.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the victim.

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Speaker 2: Victim is a fifteen year old girl named Linda Karen Peacock,

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Speaker 2: and I'll just call her Linda from now on. So

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Speaker 2: she was born in nineteen fifty two, youngest of eight children.

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Speaker 2: Every adjective I've ever told you about these victims that

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Speaker 2: we label as so called innocent, the way that we

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Speaker 2: define innocent in crime, I find problematic. Sometimes oftentimes it's white,

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Speaker 2: and it's young, and it's virginal, and you know all

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Speaker 2: of this, and so it kind of bothers me when

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Speaker 2: I read the list of adjectives over and over again.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful and lively and you know, attractive, attractive, attractive. But

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Speaker 2: Linda really fits into typical fifteen year old, big family.

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Speaker 2: She's spent a lot of her free time riding horses,

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Speaker 2: not known to really date at fifteen, and she's from

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Speaker 2: this small town and the act after noon of when

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Speaker 2: everything starts to happen, she was tending to horses at

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Speaker 2: a nearby farm, and when she finished working at the farm,

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Speaker 2: she went to her house for a couple of hours,

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Speaker 2: and then she went into town to meet one of

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Speaker 2: her friends who was a girl, and they spent a

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Speaker 2: couple of hours together and then the two of them

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Speaker 2: said goodbye at about nine thirty at night, which is

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Speaker 2: when Linda began taking a walk home. It is dark

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Speaker 2: at this point, and again, this Bigger is not a

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Speaker 2: place that has a high crime rate in particular at all,

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Speaker 2: so she felt safe in this time to be able

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Speaker 2: to start to walk home on her own. She was

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Speaker 2: spotted several times while she was walking home by different people.

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Speaker 2: One is a sixty seven year old man named David Lennox,

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Speaker 2: and David was talking to a friend of his in

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Speaker 2: front of his house when Linda walked by, and they

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Speaker 2: knew each other, and she stopped and chatted with both

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Speaker 2: of these guys for about twenty minutes and then she left.

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Speaker 2: So we have somebody who's seen her between nine thirty

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Speaker 2: ish and none fifty they've been chatting. She spotted again

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Speaker 2: about seventy yards away from David Lennox's house.

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Speaker 1: It was a local farmer.

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Speaker 2: This time who's driving by and he saw her and

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Speaker 2: he said hi, and he said he was going to

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Speaker 2: give her a ride home, even though she wasn't far away,

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Speaker 2: but he had a bunch of his dogs in his

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Speaker 2: car with him, so he didn't give her a ride home.

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Speaker 2: So she continues on and she gets to Saint Mary's Church,

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Speaker 2: which has a graveyard attached, and between ten oh two

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Speaker 2: and ten oh eight, there are a lot of witnesses

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Speaker 2: who saw two unidentified people in the cemetery where Linda

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Speaker 2: was last seen. She is not seen in the cemetery.

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Speaker 2: She has not identified positively as one of those people,

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Speaker 2: but she had to walk through the cemetery to get home.

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Speaker 1: So even though.

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Speaker 2: People couldn't identify the woman or one of the people

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Speaker 2: in this pair who are in the cemetery talking at

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Speaker 2: ten o'clock at night, it's assumed that Linda was like

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Speaker 2: one of those people. If it's the timeline so so far,

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Speaker 2: you understand where I'm going here, right, She encounters somebody

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Speaker 2: in the cemetery, or she potentially scheduleds a meeting with

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Speaker 2: somebody in the cemetery, which just seems like a bad

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Speaker 2: setup for a movie or something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or somebody follows her into the cemetery exactly, so

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Speaker 3: this this case is happening. I was I was surprised.

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Speaker 3: You said in the nineteen sixties. What year was it,

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixty seven? If she's born in.

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Speaker 1: Fifty two sixty seven, you're right, Okay, So this is.

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Speaker 3: You know, relative to what we normally talk about. This

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Speaker 3: is a fairly recent case. So I imagine, Yeah, I've

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Speaker 3: never been to Scotland, but this town, those small you know,

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Speaker 3: they're going to have street lights in town. Is there

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Speaker 3: any lighting available in the cemetery?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: That's what I'm kind of wondering as I start assessing

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Speaker 3: the witnesses and what they see, and I'm not expecting

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Speaker 3: you to know whether there was lights out right and

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Speaker 3: did the witnesses are they able to tell even though

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Speaker 3: they can't identify the two figures in the cemetery, are

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Speaker 3: they able to say that one is a woman and

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Speaker 3: one is a man? Or is it just two unknown

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Speaker 3: figures that appear to be interacting in the cemetery?

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Speaker 1: My understanding is very poor lighting.

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Speaker 2: I would also say if it's a cemetery, which I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming is going to be quite old, then probably there

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Speaker 2: are no lights available. It would have been closed by

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Speaker 2: six pm or sometime, so I don't know if they

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Speaker 2: would have just naturally had lights available then anyway, And no,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't say they couldn't say a man or a woman.

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Speaker 1: They just saw figures, they saw silhouettes.

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Speaker 3: Okay in the cemetery. I mean, I imagine the cemetery

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Speaker 3: is centuries old. Yeah, so it's possible that you have

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Speaker 3: some of these larger mausoleum style structures in the cemetery

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Speaker 3: versus just small headstones. So visibility potentially at certain parts

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Speaker 3: in the cemetery may be obstructed just because of the

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Speaker 3: types of graves that are present in this historic cemetery.

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Speaker 2: Well, this transitions us into a nice little show and tell.

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Speaker 2: So let me show you a photo of the cemetery. Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's not particularly big. This is basically in a field.

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Speaker 2: So she would have walked kind of around this pathway

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming, and you're right, huge stones to hide behind

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Speaker 2: or hide things in between.

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Speaker 3: Yes, to a point. You know, I was also envisioning

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Speaker 3: you see some of these older New York cemeteries that

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Speaker 3: have massive, you know, structures to mark graves, and I'm

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Speaker 3: not seeing that here, but they look like they have

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Speaker 3: some heights to them. Somebody potentially could be committing a

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Speaker 3: crime ducked down, and the way that they're positioned would

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Speaker 3: obstruct view from somebody just casually glancing out in the

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Speaker 3: dark into this location. But is this the totality of

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Speaker 3: the cemetery. It looks like it's a very small cemetery.

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Speaker 1: I think it is pretty small.

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Speaker 2: I think what you see in the far distance is

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Speaker 2: probably the gate that people go through. It could be

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Speaker 2: just kind of a marker, but I don't think this

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Speaker 2: is a particularly big part of it. They identify this

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Speaker 2: as the cemetery. So the witnesses who have seen what

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Speaker 2: they identify as a couple, but they can't really identify

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Speaker 2: the sex.

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Speaker 1: They're just assuming it's a couple.

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Speaker 2: The first witnesses were a couple who were driving by

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Speaker 2: and they spotted two people standing together about fifteen yards

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Speaker 2: inside the cemetery at Saint Mary's Church. And actually the

240
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Speaker 2: couple said to one another, how weird it was to

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Speaker 2: go on a date at a cemetery, no kidding, So

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Speaker 2: they must have looked and thought probably a woman.

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Speaker 1: One was probably more petite than the other.

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Speaker 2: And then there was a local man who reported seeing

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Speaker 2: the two people around ten twenty pm. So you have

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Speaker 2: Linda leaving her friend at nine thirty. She's having a

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Speaker 2: discussion with two men she knows from nine thirty ish

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Speaker 2: until nine fifty maybe ten o'clock, and then we see

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Speaker 2: these people in the cemetery.

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Speaker 1: And now at ten twenty.

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Speaker 2: You've got the last people to see this.

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Speaker 1: Couple in the cemetery.

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Speaker 2: Now this local man who saw them at ten twenty

254
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Speaker 2: is key because he says, along with actually a few

255
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Speaker 2: other people, that they heard someone screaming in the cemetery.

256
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Speaker 2: But nobody goes in to investigate this, and things get quiet.

257
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:18,040
Speaker 2: Everybody in Bigger goes to bed, and Linda's parents become

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Speaker 2: alarmed because she didn't come home on time that night,

259
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Speaker 2: she had a curfew, and almost immediately they call the police,

260
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Speaker 2: and the police recognizing that this is someone who is

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00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,120
Speaker 2: not in an at risk lifestyle, someone who people knew

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00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,920
Speaker 2: in the town and was someone who unlikely ran away,

263
00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,520
Speaker 2: they start driving around. The police start driving around looking

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Speaker 2: for her, and she was discovered I think pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: Six point forty in the morning.

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Speaker 2: An officer notices that the cemetery gate is open, and

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Speaker 2: she is found dead lying on her back between two

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Speaker 2: gravestones underneath a tree which has, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, some markers on it.

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Speaker 2: I want to show you first, We're going to go

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Speaker 2: back to the photo because I bet you did not

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Speaker 2: notice in this part of the photo her body was

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Speaker 2: actually in that photo that I was showing you. Do

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Speaker 2: you see down here where it says seven eight that's

275
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Speaker 2: her body. That's where she was found.

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Speaker 3: So I'm looking at the picture of the cemetery, which

277
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,480
Speaker 3: is from the side, so all the grave markers are

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00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 3: facing left and right in the photo. So I'm looking

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Speaker 3: at the side of the grave markers, and you have

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Speaker 3: the one grave marker that's in the front of the photo,

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00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,960
Speaker 3: and then her body is laying face up on just

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00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 3: the other side of that grave marker. And then there's

283
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 3: a large I'm just going to call it a bush.

284
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,040
Speaker 3: It's actually a pretty significant, dense bush that is on

285
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 3: the other side of her body. So her body is

286
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,360
Speaker 3: positioned between this gravestone in the foreground and then this

287
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 3: large bush. It looks like her upper clothing is disrupted.

288
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 3: I can't see to what extent, and I can't you know,

289
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,680
Speaker 3: her pelvis area is blocked by the gravestone. And then

290
00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:58,280
Speaker 3: I can see her legs. It looks like she has

291
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,480
Speaker 3: shoes on. I'm not seeing anything on her legs at

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00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,800
Speaker 3: this point, so I don't know if she's like nude

293
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:05,840
Speaker 3: from the waist down, et cetera.

294
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Speaker 2: So I mentioned she's lying on her back between the

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00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,320
Speaker 2: two gravestones or near the gravestones, and underneath a tree,

296
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Speaker 2: which you and I both agree.

297
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 1: It looks sort of like a bush.

298
00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 2: And the tree has strands of a brown seisial string

299
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,440
Speaker 2: stuck in it. I did not know what that was.

300
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:24,480
Speaker 2: It it looks like twine to me. Do you know

301
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,960
Speaker 2: anything about cecil.

302
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 3: Well, seisil is You know, that's a term that my

303
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,600
Speaker 3: trace guys would use when they were describeing different types

304
00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 3: of binding material, and it's basically a I would say,

305
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 3: it's a relatively generic term used in the industry to

306
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 3: indicate that it's a natural fiber versus something that is synthetic.

307
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,600
Speaker 3: It may come from a specific type of plant, but

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Speaker 3: that's something that I'm.

309
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Speaker 2: Not aware of, Okay, So we just know that there's

310
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,840
Speaker 2: this twine. We also known that this twine, the cecil twine,

311
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,160
Speaker 2: has shown up under Linda's fingernails. So I don't know

312
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 2: if the killer tried to bind her to the tree?

313
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Speaker 2: Does that seem like the most likely thing?

314
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 3: When I look at that tree, that tree is again,

315
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,760
Speaker 3: it's more of a bush. It does not look like

316
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:16,640
Speaker 3: something that has a significant trunk and enough space and

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00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 3: access to the trunk from the ground up to a

318
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,720
Speaker 3: certain height to bind a victim too. Yeah, but the

319
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 3: way those branches are formed, I can easily see twine

320
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Speaker 3: just naturally getting caught up in it, you know, whether

321
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,960
Speaker 3: it's you know, during a struggle, or you know, at

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00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 3: the offender abandons the use of this binding material and

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00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:39,960
Speaker 3: just kind of tosses it out of the way and

324
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 3: the tree catches it in essence.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense.

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00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,040
Speaker 2: So as we get more information, we'll see what you

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00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 2: think about that. So Linda's fingernails are dirty and bloody,

328
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Speaker 2: she has a piece of that twine underneath. Of the

329
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,760
Speaker 2: fibers of the twine underneath. The earth underneath her was

330
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 2: torn up. Her clothes are pulled up, and I have

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Speaker 2: a photo I'm going to show you in a second.

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Speaker 2: It looks to investigators that she's been dragged across the ground.

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Speaker 2: And when I show you the wider photo for the

334
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,720
Speaker 2: third time, you'll see that they've marked where the blood is,

335
00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,919
Speaker 2: and there's a spot of blood or some blood that

336
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,359
Speaker 2: is a significant distance away from where her body was.

337
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,119
Speaker 1: So that seems logical to me.

338
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 2: But I'll show you that and you'll see that she

339
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,160
Speaker 2: was mostly clothed, but that the killer exposed her breasts,

340
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:31,000
Speaker 2: and to them this suggests a sexual assault. But upon

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00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 2: examination they say that this doesn't seem like a sexual assault.

342
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,080
Speaker 2: They don't find evidence of that. They don't find evidence

343
00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 2: of semen. But you and I have talked about this.

344
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 2: That doesn't matter. That could have still been in a

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Speaker 2: sexual assault.

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Speaker 3: There most early still could be a sexual interaction by

347
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,720
Speaker 3: the offender the victim without leaving any evidence, or you

348
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 3: have a sexually motivated crime, but due to circumstances, the

349
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 3: offender never gets to performing any type of sex act.

350
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the motive seems pretty clear it was sexual.

351
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,880
Speaker 2: But let me show you these photos and you could

352
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,120
Speaker 2: tell me what you think. So this is photo number

353
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,479
Speaker 2: one that you haven't seen yet. This is her body,

354
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,240
Speaker 2: So tell people what you're seeing here.

355
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 3: Okay, So this particular photo is a photo taken with

356
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 3: a photographer standing at the victim's feet and shooting up

357
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 3: towards her head, so I am seeing Linda laying on

358
00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,200
Speaker 3: her back. She appears to be dressed in some sort

359
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 3: of maybe button down shirt or sweater that is pushed up,

360
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 3: exposing her breast, as well as she has a what

361
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,000
Speaker 3: appears to be a skirt. Her underwear is in place

362
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 3: and it is clipped to the leggings and I'm not

363
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,680
Speaker 3: sure if this would be considered a garter type of garment,

364
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,920
Speaker 3: and her head is looking over to her right hand.

365
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,680
Speaker 3: Her right arm is up in a position at a

366
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,560
Speaker 3: ninety degree angle, with her hand laying back above the head,

367
00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,200
Speaker 3: and the jacket I'm assuming that she was wearing appears

368
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,440
Speaker 3: to have been pulled down the length of her arm

369
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,120
Speaker 3: and possibly is even off of her left arm, though

370
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,240
Speaker 3: I can't see her left arm in this photo it's

371
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 3: behind the gravestone. Then I'm seeing it appears that on

372
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,239
Speaker 3: her exposed chest abdominal area, as well as on the

373
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,760
Speaker 3: top of her skirt, it almost looks like it's droppings

374
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:33,400
Speaker 3: from the tree. For me, that's significant from a sequencing standpoint,

375
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:38,000
Speaker 3: because this is now showing that the material from the

376
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 3: tree has likely dropped onto her after she's lain in

377
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:47,600
Speaker 3: this position and after her breasts and abdomen have been exposed,

378
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 3: and right now I can't make anything out of that.

379
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 3: It's just that that's something that always has to be

380
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:59,159
Speaker 3: paid attention to, is anything that can provide sequence information

381
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 3: at the crime. See. So I'm looking at that, going, Okay,

382
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 3: if I'm correct and this debris is from the tree,

383
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,240
Speaker 3: then it is dropping down on her after she's been

384
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 3: positioned here likely and then after her upper body has

385
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,399
Speaker 3: been exposed.

386
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the sequence of events that you

387
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:20,439
Speaker 2: just mentioned. I want to go down to that wide

388
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,040
Speaker 2: photo once again. Notice that they've put these little markers here,

389
00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,680
Speaker 2: so we see numbers one through eight. You can now

390
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,760
Speaker 2: see her arm that was hidden behind the gravestone. And

391
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 2: so look at the different markers and tell me what

392
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,280
Speaker 2: you think. So to me, it looks like there is blood,

393
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 2: which I assume they would say is significance very far

394
00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 2: away or at least you know, four or five gravestones

395
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,320
Speaker 2: away from her, and there is blood beneath where her

396
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,719
Speaker 2: body was found, and then her coins and a comb

397
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,720
Speaker 2: and a purse that are sort of scattered within what

398
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,719
Speaker 2: do you think this is like a thirty to fifty

399
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:57,760
Speaker 2: foot radius in this graveyard?

400
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: I'm actually using I have to use her body. I'm assuming,

401
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 3: you know, she's probably a fifteen year old woman of

402
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 3: average height somewhere yeah, you know, from five to two

403
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 3: to five five. She doesn't look like she's a tiny,

404
00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 3: tiny fifteen year old. So if I'm looking at her

405
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 3: body and just roughly saying that she's she's five foot

406
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 3: from head to toe, then it appears that the distribution

407
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,720
Speaker 3: along this cemetery of what they have marked as evidence

408
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 3: is roughly twenty five feet from the furthest evidence marker

409
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 3: number one to where her body is located. And again

410
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 3: this is this is rough, but it does suggest that

411
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 3: there is a and it's a linear pattern of these

412
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 3: evidence markers. So this seems consistent with the original investigators

413
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 3: thought that she had been drug or a struggle had

414
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 3: occurred along this linear path up to the location to

415
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,239
Speaker 3: where her body is ultimately deposited. Now, the observation that

416
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 3: I'm going to make here is where her body is

417
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,439
Speaker 3: is significant because she has been positioned by the biggest

418
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 3: structure in the cemetery, which is that tree. Yeah, and

419
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 3: I think that is purposeful by the offender. He is

420
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 3: trying to hide her from the casual onlooker and I

421
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: don't know. You've mentioned possibly that the entrance to the

422
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 3: cemetery was in the backdrop of this photograph. Well, her

423
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 3: body is on the other side of this tree, which

424
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: would basically in essence, act as a blind, preventing people

425
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 3: from seeing her body if they are down by let's

426
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 3: say the road going into the cemetery or at the

427
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 3: cemetery gate.

428
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

429
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,960
Speaker 2: From the onset, to me, looks like a crime of opportunity,

430
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: but we don't know.

431
00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 1: What do you think so far?

432
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: Do you feel like this is someone who was stalking her,

433
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 2: someone she knew, or someone who happened to be in

434
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 2: there and was looking to pick off somebody who was

435
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 2: walking through it late at night.

436
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,159
Speaker 3: I think all theories at this point in time are

437
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 3: equally possible. Don't know enough about the person that she

438
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 3: is seen with in this cemetery. You know, victimology is huge.

439
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 3: This is where getting into her life investigatively is possibly

440
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 3: going to provide greater insight. On the surface, it appears

441
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 3: that it would be a victim of opportunity. She happens

442
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 3: to be walking along this path home. You know, she's

443
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,160
Speaker 3: delayed because she stops and talks to her adult male

444
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 3: friend along the way and she ends up going through

445
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 3: the cemetery. Now, if this was a routine that she did,

446
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 3: Let's say she's constantly going into town and taking this

447
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 3: path home and somebody along that path has seen her

448
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 3: previously and is now lying in wait. Now, again, it

449
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 3: could be a pre planned scenario. But then does she

450
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 3: have a secret life. Does she have a secret boyfriend

451
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 3: that hey, I'm going to be My parents think I'm out,

452
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: you know, with my girlfriend. They're not expecting me home

453
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 3: until you know, eleven o'clock or midnight. They'll be in bed.

454
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 3: We can meet up in the remote location of the

455
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 3: cemetery where you know, nobody can see us to report

456
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 3: us back to my parents, you know. So that's part

457
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 3: of the investigative process is to figure out which is

458
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 3: the most likely scenario.

459
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 2: Well, so far, the investigators say that she has no

460
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: personal life other than her friends. She doesn't seem to

461
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 2: be dating anyone. Her friends say she wasn't dating anyone.

462
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 2: She was just this happy, go lucky girl living her

463
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: life and went through the cemetery and ended up dead.

464
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about the.

465
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: Injuries, the extensive injuries, because these become important forensic evidence.

466
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 1: I hate talking, you know.

467
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: Autopsies are always difficult for me with young girls, with women.

468
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 2: And the post mortem was conducted in Scotland about nineteen

469
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: hours after her death. I have close up photos of

470
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: these things. She had two lacerated wounds on her head,

471
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 2: and she had a ligature mark around her left wrist,

472
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: and she had bruises on her left forearm, her right

473
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: breast and on the top of her right finger, and

474
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: she had ligature marks around her neck. So wrist and neck.

475
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 2: The doctor says that these marks were well defined on

476
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 2: the front and sides and less marked on the back

477
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 2: of the neck, so less markings on the back, more

478
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 2: on the front. And they concluded that she must have

479
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: been strangled from behind.

480
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: Does that sound right to you?

481
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: Just from that evidence is the cause of death strangulation.

482
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: It seems like it, yes, But she was also whacked

483
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 2: on the head several times. Sure they have a specific

484
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 2: weapon in mind, I'll tell you about later, and I

485
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: don't know how they could be this specific, but it

486
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: seems like most likely it was strangulation.

487
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 3: Okay, So when you have a ligature applied to the neck,

488
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 3: when the ligature completely encircles the neck, let's say it

489
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 3: is actually tied off and left in place. Oftentimes you

490
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 3: see when the ligature is re moved the ligature marks

491
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: that completely encircle the neck. Versus, if you have a

492
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 3: ligature that is placed around the neck and pulled and

493
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 3: the offender is pulling that ligature tight in order to strangle,

494
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,639
Speaker 3: the side that the offender is pulling from is often

495
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,719
Speaker 3: pulled away from the neck, Versus the opposite side is

496
00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: now where the force of the ligature is now digging

497
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 3: into the soft tissues and leaving the ligature mark. So

498
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 3: in the autopsy, they are saying that they are seeing

499
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: the ligature marks that encircle the front of the neck,

500
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 3: but then aren't seeing any ligature marks on the back side.

501
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: So the conclusion that the offender is strangling her from

502
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 3: behind sounds consistent with the description of the ligature marks

503
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 3: on her neck.

504
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: Okay, let me show you the photo, and I want

505
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 2: you to ignore the bruising around her breast area for

506
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 2: now and just look at the ligature and tell me.

507
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 1: If this tallies with what you had thought about.

508
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: So this is a close up and you see the

509
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 2: ligature mark up there, And in the notes it says

510
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: in the mortuary. The marks on the breast and necker scene.

511
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: This is nineteen hours after she was discovered. The ligature

512
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: mark is most marked anterially. Is that right anterially?

513
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: Yes, So the anterior is the front of the neck.

514
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 3: Posterior is going to be the back of the neck.

515
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,479
Speaker 2: The mark caused after her brazier had been pulled up,

516
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 2: as clearly seen, the blood in front of the left

517
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: ear must have clotted when she was vertical. I don't

518
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 2: have photos of her head injury.

519
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is a substantial ligature mark. It's a

520
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 3: very thin ligature mark that has abraided the skin, and

521
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: at least in this photo, which is a photo taken

522
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: from her left side, I am seeing the ligature mark

523
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,359
Speaker 3: that comes up from the left side of her neck

524
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 3: in circles around the front of her neck underneath the

525
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 3: chin area, and then can't see the other side. But

526
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 3: I'm assuming that the right side, based on the previous description,

527
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 3: is just like the left side. This is entirely consistent

528
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: with my experience of seeing ligature strangulation. You know, of course,

529
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: that autopsy i'd want them to be noting that patikia

530
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 3: was present in the eyes. There is congestion, pulmonary congestion,

531
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: all the hallmarks of strangulation. But based on what I'm seeing,

532
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 3: this ligature mark on her neck is consistent with the

533
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: application of deadly force to her neck. The blood flow

534
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 3: that is in front of her left ear, they use

535
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: the term dried, so blood flows with gravity. So if

536
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 3: she has an injury to her head and that's the

537
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: reason for the bleeding, she was upright when that blood stream,

538
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 3: if you will, flowed down more in her left upper

539
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 3: jaw area in front to the ear and then dried

540
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 3: before she was on her back. The blood flow would

541
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 3: then have curved if it was still flow actively flowing,

542
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 3: and she now is put on her back position, so

543
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: she's upright for a period of time after receiving a

544
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 3: bleeding injury to her head.

545
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: Do you think that the blow comes first and then

546
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: the strangulation. That makes sense to me as a sequence

547
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: of immens.

548
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: I would say that that is the most likely scenario

549
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 3: because this strangulation, in all likelihood is fatal. So there's

550
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 3: no reason for you know, the offender, after she is

551
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: now you know, unconscious, to have kept her upright and

552
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 3: then hit her in the head. So in all likelihood,

553
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: the offender is hitting in her in the head to

554
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 3: gain compliance and control. Whether or not she is knocked out,

555
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 3: who knows, you know. But after that, now the offender

556
00:29:55,040 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 3: is probably using that twine that is found in the tree,

557
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: whether it's the same length of that twine or he

558
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: had a different length that he took with him.

559
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 1: Now we're going to talk about the bite marks.

560
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: Because she did have those injuries, this became the most

561
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: important evidence. There were severe bite marks in the lower

562
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: quadrant of Linda's right breast. They left a ring shaped pattern,

563
00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: and the person who created them appeared to have a

564
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 2: unique bite. I've got several photos of this, so we've

565
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: got the wide and I'll go ahead and go back

566
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: to those. We have the wide that I had already

567
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: shown you, so you see where on the breast this happens.

568
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: So this is what you've already seen, and now you

569
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 2: can see where the bite mark is.

570
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: And then I've got some very close up shots.

571
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 3: Give me the close up shot, please.

572
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So here's one. This is the right breast.

573
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, in terms of taking a look

574
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: at this photo, this is a photo of her left

575
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: breast that is purposefully focused in on sort of the

576
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 3: the medial surface of her left breast, where there's this

577
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 3: very large and I will say indistinct contusion like injury.

578
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: There's a scale in the photograph. So this large dark

579
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 3: contusion like injury on the inside surface of her left

580
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: breast appears to be up to two inches in length

581
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: from head to toe direction. Now, kind of going back

582
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 3: to our earlier discussion about they're saying this does not

583
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 3: appear to have any signs of sexual assault. This is

584
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 3: a sexual assault. She has a mark, which I'm assuming

585
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 3: they are concluding is a bite mark with suction on

586
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 3: her left breast. There is no other way to characterize

587
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 3: this as a sexual assault. Now they may be saying,

588
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: we don't find any injuries vaginally, we don't find any

589
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: seaman vaginally. Well, that's just part of a sexual interaction

590
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 3: that an offender does to a victim. A fender may

591
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 3: bite the victim's neck. That is a sexual assault, even

592
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 3: though it's not considered part of the sexual anatomy on

593
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: the body. Here this is on her left breast. There

594
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 3: is no question right this is a sexually motivated crime.

595
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 2: Now, let me ask you, could anything else have made

596
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 2: this marking other than teeth?

597
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: Marks.

598
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: If you were just handed this photo and don't know

599
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: anything about the case, would you assume this is anything

600
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: but teeth marks?

601
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: No? In fact, you know, this photo is a little

602
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 3: bit grainy. You know, the resolution is relatively poor. But

603
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: with what I can see of this mark, I couldn't

604
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 3: even conclude that this mark was a It is what

605
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: I described as just a large, somewhat circular contusion that

606
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: has some darker areas in it. I would need to

607
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 3: see a better photo to see if I could see

608
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 3: distinct teeth marks. And I see where you're scrolling to.

609
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,560
Speaker 3: Now there's a sorry, faul different photo here?

610
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: Is this any better?

611
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: So it's the note says the right breast has been enlarged,

612
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: showing clearly the ring marks A and E and Brasians

613
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: see the guidelines for the orientation of the bite marker shown.

614
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: So is that really teeth right there? Is that what

615
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: they're trying to show you?

616
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 3: Well? With what I am seeing, And again, you know,

617
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: just for the listeners, this is a clearer photo that

618
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: the previous photo was really showing a lot of the

619
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: you know, undersurface type of bruising that was obscuring the

620
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 3: surface marks to the skin. Now what I am looking

621
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: at is, in essence, around the outer part of this

622
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: circle are five what I will describe as punk tate injuries,

623
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 3: as if the tip of a pencil had been pushed

624
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: in at each five of these points. And they've labeled

625
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: these five A, B, C, D, and E. C is

626
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,920
Speaker 3: the most significant in terms of the amount of damage

627
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 3: it's done to the skin. And then inside these five

628
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 3: punk tate marks, that's where there appears to be some bruising.

629
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 3: And they mentioned that there is a suction like a

630
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: Hickey type of formation that's occurring in the center of this.

631
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,839
Speaker 3: I can't conclude that based on this photo. However, at

632
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 3: this point, with what I am seeing, this does not

633
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 3: look like a traditional bite mark. There is something unusual

634
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:55,439
Speaker 3: about it, with the distribution of these five punk tate

635
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 3: marks on the outside. So now this is where I

636
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 3: need to see if they are comparing this mark to

637
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: somebody's teeth. Yep, I need to see that before I

638
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 3: would say that this is a bite mark.

639
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 2: And you will, but let me give you some background first. Okay,

640
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: we have some great photos. I think great photoscures. What

641
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: I think is great, you think is like that? It's okay,

642
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: I'm just happy to have photos and not have some

643
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: rough sketch from the eighteen hundreds.

644
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,879
Speaker 3: I'm happy that you got photos too, even though they're

645
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 3: not great photos. I can at least see what they're

646
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: talking about and how they're concluding what they conclude.

647
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 2: So we've got Linda Peacock, who is now the autopsy

648
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: has been completed, the police are gathering evidence, and her

649
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: family within a few days buries her in just a

650
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: sad footnote in the very same graveyard. Oh wow, or

651
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: she had been killed. It must have been the only option,

652
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:50,720
Speaker 2: I guess.

653
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. Boy, how terrible.

654
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't like that at all.

655
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: No.

656
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 3: I wonder where her grave is relative to where her

657
00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 3: body was found.

658
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: And I wonder if there's a bigger graveyard, you know,

659
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: that we don't see. But boy, it looks pretty isolated

660
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: and it doesn't look very big. So now the police

661
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: are under pressure, of course, because you've got a small

662
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: town and everybody is under stress, and they want answers.

663
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: And as I said, two to three thousand people and

664
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: bigger normally. But when she's killed, which is a Saturday,

665
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: August fifth, there has been a traveling fair that stopped

666
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 2: in I know the damn traveling fairs who double the population.

667
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: So the police interview everybody. So they interviewed around three

668
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: thousand people between bigger and the people who came in

669
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: this traveling fair. So they've got their list down to

670
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 2: about twenty nine people, and they start taking the dental

671
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: pressions of these twenty nine people. And almost all of

672
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 2: the twenty nine people are students at a school that

673
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: is a boarding school for teen offenders.

674
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So now they've got a large percentage of these

675
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 3: remaining twenty nine that are coming from this one facility.

676
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 3: Do they narrow down onto a particular person?

677
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 2: They do, So there is a student at the Loaningdale

678
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: School named Gordon Hay.

679
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: He is seventeen.

680
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: And you know, they have looked at the faculty in

681
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 2: this place, and by the way, it's a minute and

682
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: a half walk from the cemetery. Okay, So they've taken

683
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 2: the impressions from the faculty and the students. They were

684
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 2: examined by experts, cast into molds, and very quickly, you know,

685
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 2: these impressions were eliminated everybody except seventeen year old Gordon Hay.

686
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: So here's the description before I tell you more about

687
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: Gordon Hay.

688
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 2: His teeth had pits in the upper and lower canines,

689
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 2: which analysts believe could have caused that weird ring shape.

690
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: He also had a fractured upper left central and a

691
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: few distinctive cavities, which they think might have caused this

692
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: bruising that we saw.

693
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: And I have photos of his teeth.

694
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: All right, I'm already very skeptical, but let's go ahead

695
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 3: and let's take a look at his teeth.

696
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: Okay, So I am unfamiliar with teeth in the order

697
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: of things, I'm going to give you just a wide

698
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: real quick and then they have closeups of the upper

699
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: and the lower. So this figure sixteen says, shows model

700
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: of Hay's teeth on a dentitist articulator, and I also

701
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 2: have his actual teeth. But this is what they're saying

702
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,240
Speaker 2: it looks like from this angle.

703
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 3: So I'm yeah, I'm looking at basically this cast of

704
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 3: Gordon's front teeth in essence, as if he were standing

705
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: in front of me, and I'm seeing the left side

706
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 3: of his mouth. It looks like he's missing a tooth

707
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 3: on the left side lower jaw towards the front. However,

708
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 3: he does have all his teeth with the exception. In fact,

709
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: on the left and right side of his mouth, now

710
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 3: that you scroll down, I'm seeing that he has a gap.

711
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 3: So in essence, it appears that the front on his

712
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:10,839
Speaker 3: lower jaw, the six front teeth are all present. And

713
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 3: then both on the right and left side of his

714
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 3: lower jaw he has the same gap, like the teeth

715
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 3: that just didn't grow in. And then his lower jaw

716
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: teeth appear to be, you know, starting up again, and

717
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 3: then he has all his upper teeth. His dentition is unusual, however,

718
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 3: he has in most of his teeth even though you

719
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 3: know they're they're not in great shape. And if he

720
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,840
Speaker 3: were to bite down on skin to the point of

721
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 3: leaving a mark, I would expect that these teeth that

722
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 3: are present would be leaving marks in that skin. And

723
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 3: I'm not seeing that in her injury. You know, the

724
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 3: fact that he has some cavities or these gaps in

725
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 3: his lower jaw means nothing when you start talking about

726
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: a bite mark is what is interacting, you know, with

727
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 3: the skin, and it's the teeth who cares if these

728
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: there's cavities in there, and his teeth are going to

729
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 3: be leaving the marks and in the photos, at least

730
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: with the quality that they were taking. I am not

731
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 3: seeing the teeth marks that I typically see in bite marks.

732
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this.

733
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: We might assume that he left these after she was

734
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: already dead and she's lying still, But doesn't it seem

735
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: to you a little more likely that whoever killed her

736
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 2: did this while she was still alive she's moving. Is

737
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: there a way to get an accurate picture of someone's

738
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 2: teeth on flesh if the victim is moving around?

739
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 3: This is really part of the problem when we get

740
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 3: into forensic oot ontology and bite mark analysis is it's

741
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 3: the substrate in which the bite mark is left. Skin

742
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: generally is really a very poor surface to record bite

743
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 3: marks and see you know, some of the individual teeth

744
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 3: marks in the bite mark itself, and of course, if

745
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 3: there is movement while the bite is being applied, oftentimes

746
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 3: the teeth will slide on the skin, upbraiding it. Odontologists historically,

747
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 3: you know, most of the bitemark analysis is usually on skin,

748
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 3: which is a soft tissue, and depending on where on

749
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 3: the body it is, there's a lot of pliability, especially

750
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 3: on the breasts, and oftentimes there's so much distortion that

751
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 3: these odontologists that have favorably compared a let's say, suspects

752
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 3: teeth to the bitemark evidence, they often have overreached in

753
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: their analysis. And now I'm I'm looking at the photo

754
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 3: that you presented of this mark on her left breast,

755
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 3: and I question if it's even a bite mark. With

756
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 3: what I am able to see.

757
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: I agree.

758
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: Now let me do my due diligence here and show

759
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: you the rest of these molds and his teeth, just

760
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: so that I can say I showed him to you.

761
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 2: But everything that you say makes sense in everything that

762
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: I have researched for the books that I've written. These

763
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: are more models. I mean, this is a different point

764
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 2: of view of something you've already seen before. And then

765
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: we have his photos of his actual teeth. I don't

766
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 2: know if this is telling you anything new or not.

767
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: It really comes down to the sample that you're given

768
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: is not. I don't think there's any way to determine

769
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: whether or not this was actually a bite mark. And

770
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: we can go back up and look at it again

771
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 2: if you'd like.

772
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 3: With the photos that I'm looking at at Gordon's dentition

773
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 3: and his teeth, you know, for me, what is significant

774
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: is is that he does have in essence, most of

775
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 3: his teeth. And with what I am seeing in that

776
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 3: photo of those five punk Tate marks, it almost looks

777
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 3: like if you were to draw a line linking from

778
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 3: punk Tate mark A to B, two C to D

779
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: to E, it looks like it's almost a perfect pentagon.

780
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

781
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 3: So this is where I really if this is truly

782
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: a bite mark, I really struggle to where they could

783
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:13,760
Speaker 3: effect any type of comparison from this to anybody's mouth.

784
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: Boy, they did, they did, They said conclusively he's the

785
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 2: one who did it. He is arrested on November twenty fourth,

786
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,959
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, so this was three or four months

787
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 2: after this happened. So let me tell you a little

788
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 2: bit about Gordon, because I know we've said this is

789
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: shaky evidence, but he still might have been our guy,

790
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 2: just because they can't pin it on him.

791
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: There's a lot about Gordon Hay to unpack.

792
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 2: So he was born in nineteen fifty, so he is

793
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 2: a couple of years older than Linda is, and he

794
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 2: was athletic. He played soccer, but he always had problems academically.

795
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: He didn't have a lot of close friends.

796
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 2: His dad died when he was about sixteen years old

797
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 2: and he started hanging out with a typical bad crowd,

798
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: getting in a lot of trouble but nothing. He had

799
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: behavioral issues where he was I love this, the unlawful

800
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 2: removal of vehicles.

801
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: And then he broke into a factory.

802
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: He stole vehicles.

803
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: No unlawful removal of vehicles, and then he broke into

804
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 2: a factory.

805
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: And that's how he went to Loadingdale.

806
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:21,600
Speaker 2: That's how he landed in this reformatory in January of

807
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven.

808
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: Loaningdale did nothing to rehab him.

809
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: And it doesn't seem like he was violent when he

810
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 2: was there, but he wasn't content, that's for sure. So

811
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 2: he has this history of behavioral issues, but nothing violent. However,

812
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: a couple of things did happen a few days before

813
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 2: Linda's murder. The headmaster decided that Gordon needed to go.

814
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: They could not handle whatever his erratic behavior was. We

815
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 2: don't really know what it was. We know it wasn't violent,

816
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 2: but he just did not seem to be a good

817
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: fit for their particular school.

818
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: So he was going to be transferred.

819
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: Is that a potential trick for someone if he wants

820
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: to stay at the school and he wants to be

821
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: in this area.

822
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: He doesn't have a level of.

823
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: Violence in his past that we would think would lead

824
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 2: him to this, But oftentimes killers don't have a level

825
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 2: of violence that would lead to their first murder.

826
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 3: So Gordon, the reason he's landing at this home or

827
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 3: this facility is because of criminal behavior. Now it's property crimes.

828
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: You know, he's stealing cars, he's he broke into a facility.

829
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: I mean, he's showing a propensity to go outside of

830
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 3: social boundaries. Now here you have a scenario in which

831
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: a fifteen year old girl has been isolated out at

832
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: the cemetery. There's nothing about Gordon's past that would be

833
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: predictive that he would escalate to commit to this type

834
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 3: of crime, but also doesn't mean that he couldn't. So

835
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: there are behaviors that some offenders exhibit in terms of

836
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 3: the types of fantasy material that they draw. I'm a

837
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 3: big proponent of anybody that is doing the animal abuse,

838
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 3: you know, whether it be torture or killing of animals

839
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 3: that is on the spectrum of violence that really predicts

840
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 3: that that person is going to hurt a person if

841
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 3: they do that type of thing to animals. As of

842
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: right now, we don't have any information indicating that Gordon

843
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 3: was exhibiting that level of behavior. However, he most certainly

844
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 3: could be capable of. You know, here's a woman that

845
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 3: is isolated, victim of opportunity. The interesting thing is is

846
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: the offender who killed Linda brought binding material with him.

847
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 3: Would this be normally something the offender would have on

848
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 3: their person or was this a planned attack. This offender

849
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 3: either knew that a woman would be coming through that

850
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 3: location that night and brought the binding material with him,

851
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 3: or he's out on the prow and was going to

852
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 3: find a victim that night and was prepared with the

853
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: binding material.

854
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: Two odd things about Gordon that play into what you're

855
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,200
Speaker 2: talking about. One is he had almost no friends at school,

856
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: but he was really close friends with his roommate. His

857
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 2: roommate liked to play tricks like rope tricks, including Cat's cradle,

858
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,479
Speaker 2: which I did not do well as a child learning

859
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 2: how to do the cat's cradle, but you know a

860
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 2: lot of like kind of string rope tricks. The roommate

861
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 2: says that Gordon became obsessed like a child with playing

862
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 2: with this string and different kinds of ropes, making different

863
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 2: kinds of knots. And I'm sure you're profiling propensity has

864
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: just really become excited by this. Does this seem does

865
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 2: this mean anything?

866
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 3: Not? Without more details, you know, kind of the first

867
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 3: thing I'm I'm thinking about is if he's in the

868
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 3: facility and he has binding material, is it the same

869
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,800
Speaker 3: binding material that is found at the crime scene.

870
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you in a minute. So we've got

871
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 2: some odd things that happened. And this is just sort

872
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 2: of the sequence of a where Gordon, in his interaction

873
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 2: with this case starts is the day before the murder,

874
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 2: So Gordon had crossed paths with Linda Peacock. He had

875
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 2: gone with a friend from school to meet Linda and

876
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: her friend. They did not know each other. They interacted

877
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: for less than a minute. It was not a blind date,

878
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: it was not anything. It was just really kind of

879
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 2: just to say hi, and that was it. The friend said,

880
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: it was literally less than a minute. But nonetheless, Gordon

881
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 2: told his friend that he would like to have sex

882
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: with Linda.

883
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: And this is the night before.

884
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 3: Well, this is now putting Gordon within Linda's social circle,

885
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 3: if you will. So if these two are the two

886
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: shadowy figures, in the cemetery that witnesses saw. This is

887
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: that prior interaction is something that Gordon could have taken

888
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:56,479
Speaker 3: advantage of in order to be able to be less

889
00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: threatening to Linda while standing out there in the dark

890
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: at the cemetery. The fact that he's making a statement

891
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 3: to his friend, I want to have sex with her, yeah,

892
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 3: tends to suggest that if he's the one out there

893
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 3: in the cemetery, he's probably interacting with her in a

894
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 3: way where he's expressing I want to have sex, and

895
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 3: that may be hey, I like you, attempting a consensual

896
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 3: type of interaction, and then she turns him down and

897
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 3: he becomes violent. That would be within a scenario that

898
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 3: I see as plausible.

899
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 2: So let me tell you some more details just about

900
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 2: what happened that night. People had seen Gordon that night

901
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: around nine point forty at the school's dining room, and

902
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 2: after about nine forty five, he put on his night

903
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 2: clothes and said he was going to go to bed,

904
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: but his roommate wasn't around, and there weren't any other

905
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: witnesses who could say where he was, so he disappears

906
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 2: and when he comes back around ten twenty, So this

907
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 2: is maybe ten twenty five. This is slightly after the

908
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:03,480
Speaker 2: time people hear the screams. He comes back. His roommate

909
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: says that he looks like he's been gardening. He's covered

910
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 2: in dirt. He was wearing normal clothes, not the pajamas

911
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 2: he had been wearing when people had seen him before.

912
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 2: There is a significant thing that the roommate is alarmed by.

913
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 2: The roommate had picked up on a trip to the

914
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: beach a large boat hook, very big, about a foot

915
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 2: in length, and the roommate had kept it in his wardrobe.

916
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: That night, the roommate noticed the boat hook was gone.

917
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: The next morning, the boat hook reappeared. And of course

918
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: the police are suggesting that he used this boat hook

919
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 2: to stun Linda and then strangle her.

920
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: Okay, obviously there's suspicious circumstances around Gordon, yep. And now

921
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 3: it's a matter of closing the loop on him as

922
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 3: a suspect. If he is taking this boat hook and

923
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,240
Speaker 3: using it on Linda to inflict blows that drew blood,

924
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: and these are blows to her head, there's a possibility

925
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,240
Speaker 3: that this boat hook has her hair or possible blood

926
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 3: on it, whether he cleaned it up or not. You know,

927
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 3: that's always a possibility. But also they say, well, it

928
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: look like you've been out gardening. Well, that is entirely

929
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 3: consistent with Now the offender is interacting with Linda, is

930
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 3: on the ground with Linda in this graveyard. You have

931
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 3: that tree in which I had made the prior observation.

932
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 3: Appears that the tree is dropping debris. So this is

933
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 3: physical evidence now that can possibly be used to help

934
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 3: link him to that crime scene. Many people overlook an

935
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 3: aspect of crime scene processing is you're always looking for

936
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 3: evidence of the offender present at the scene. You know,

937
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 3: their fingerprints, their DNA, their shoe impressions at the crime scene.

938
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 3: But when that offender leaves the crime scene, he's taking

939
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 3: part of the crime scene with him. And so when

940
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 3: I'm processing a crime scene and the offender is unknown,

941
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,279
Speaker 3: what I'm doing is I'm looking for what would the

942
00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 3: offender have taken on his person, either knowingly or unknowingly,

943
00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:06,280
Speaker 3: And oftentimes it's trace evidence, carpet fibers, or in this case,

944
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 3: botanical material like the debris from that tree. So I'd

945
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:13,960
Speaker 3: be collecting a sample of that debris from the tree.

946
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 3: And if we find an offender and it happens to

947
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: have similar botanical material. Now I want an expert to

948
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 3: tell me is this from the same source. So that

949
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: would be what I would expect the investigators to be

950
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 3: doing with Gordon. I know they're focusing in on this

951
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:33,399
Speaker 3: bite mark, but some of this other evidence becomes very

952
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 3: when you start stacking it up, it becomes very compelling

953
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 3: that he is Linda's killer. Do they have that kind

954
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 3: of evidence.

955
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 2: Well, they do, but they don't have the technology just yet.

956
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like for them to be able to

957
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 2: make some conclusive ties between Gordon and Linda.

958
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: So this is what they have. They were looking for

959
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 1: the rope.

960
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 2: It is not the twine they are saying that you

961
00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: and I had talked about. They found Gordon's robe. There

962
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 2: was a cord missing. Gordon said, I never use a

963
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,879
Speaker 2: cord I know either incidentally in my robes. And they

964
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 2: looked in the schools incinerator and found a charred cord

965
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:17,919
Speaker 2: which they believe was of the consistency that caused that

966
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: ligature mark. However, they couldn't say conclusively. There was a

967
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 2: small amount of blood on Gordon's boots and the legs

968
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: of his pants.

969
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: He says it was just some accident. He had.

970
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 2: With the technology they had, they couldn't prove anything. And

971
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: then the alibi is very odd. He is spotted at

972
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 2: Loaningdale around nine forty five. He was home for lights

973
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 2: out at ten thirty, which gives him forty five minutes

974
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:47,840
Speaker 2: to murder an assault Linda at a location that's a

975
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 2: minute and a half away from his house.

976
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:50,760
Speaker 1: So that's plenty of time.

977
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 2: But there was a lot of debate about the timeline

978
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: and then the boat hook. They weren't able to pull

979
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,280
Speaker 2: anything from the boat hook. They had no blood or evidence.

980
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: It was wiped clean by that point, and in nineteen

981
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: sixty seven, there's very little they could have done. So

982
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,319
Speaker 2: I think that they had the impressions that you had

983
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 2: about where they could go with the evidence, and they

984
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 2: just weren't able to pull together more so, they hinged

985
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: everything on these bite marks.

986
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:16,439
Speaker 3: Okay, most certainly the association of the crime scene through

987
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 3: a botanical analysis was something they could have done. But

988
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 3: if they had gone to an academic professor, you know,

989
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 3: they may have had to go to a larger area

990
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 3: where there was a university of somebody that would be

991
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 3: able to identify any debris found on Gordon's clothing. You know,

992
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 3: and see if it is something that could have been

993
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: from the cemetery location, and then of course, well how

994
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 3: common is this that tree is is that a decorative

995
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 3: tree that would be unusual and it's not indigenous to

996
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 3: the area, or is it something that is everywhere? Then

997
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 3: it weakens the association the blood. You're right. In nineteen

998
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 3: sixty seven, the blood, they were limited with what they

999
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 3: could do with that in a blood staining. So this

1000
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 3: blood that's found on his clothing today would have be

1001
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 3: huge evidence. Yeah, you know, we would be able to

1002
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: do DNA and show this is Linda's blott and that

1003
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 3: right there would be very, very compelling that he is

1004
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 3: her killer. I'm still not hearing though, whether or not

1005
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 3: they found a source of this twine that was found

1006
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:16,960
Speaker 3: hanging in the tree.

1007
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: Now it sounds like they thought that maybe he tried

1008
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: to bind her with it, but that it didn't work

1009
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 2: and they used something else. He used something else to

1010
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 2: strangle her, which would have been the cord from his pocket.

1011
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,799
Speaker 2: He says, for his part, I've never met Linda. I

1012
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 2: have no idea who she is. I did not do this,

1013
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,360
Speaker 2: and you know I have been home off and on.

1014
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 2: You know that whole night, and he really just denies it.

1015
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 2: So as weak as the evidence is that you and

1016
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: I think you know all of this DNA evidence, we

1017
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: lack all the things that we need.

1018
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:48,360
Speaker 1: The bite mark really convinced a.

1019
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 2: Jury and they handed down a guilty verdict, and because

1020
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: he was under eighteen, he was ordered to be detained.

1021
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 2: It's called during Her Majesty's pleasure, which means that he

1022
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 2: was incarcerated indefinitely. He appealed, it was denied, and we

1023
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 2: don't know anything else.

1024
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: What happened to Gordon? Hey, no idea? What happened?

1025
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? See, based on what you have told me, you

1026
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 3: know he's a suspect for sure. They're circumstances that are suspicious.

1027
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 3: I personally don't hear anything that is probable cause for

1028
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 3: even arrest the bite mark. As I mentioned before, with

1029
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 3: what I'm seeing, I can't determine that that's a bite mark.

1030
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 3: I think they overreached to compare Gordon positively to that bitemark.

1031
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 3: So I negate the bitemark evidence and I look at

1032
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,359
Speaker 3: what they have and it's like, Yeah, he's suspicious. He's

1033
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,720
Speaker 3: a suspect. They need to continue their investigation and build

1034
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 3: a case against him. He very well, maybe Linda's killer,

1035
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 3: but they don't have enough. And the fact that now

1036
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 3: that he's been convicted, this is just kind of underscores

1037
00:56:55,640 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 3: how easy it is to convict using very evidence. That's

1038
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 3: the scary part about any any justice system. And I'm

1039
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,120
Speaker 3: not sure exactly what was in place in Scotland. Did

1040
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 3: you say that's a jury?

1041
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: It was a jury, yes, okay, And this was significant

1042
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why I picked this is

1043
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 2: because it was the first time at British court had

1044
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,600
Speaker 2: convicted someone based almost entirely on bitemark evidence.

1045
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, bad bite mark evidence.

1046
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 3: It really does underscore you know, sometimes you know, the

1047
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 3: term junk sciences is something that's bantered about, and sometimes

1048
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 3: I think that that term is misused by people who

1049
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: really don't understand how really there is solid scientific underpinnings

1050
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 3: for some of the forensic evidence out there. But this

1051
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 3: is where this term comes in to, where now you

1052
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 3: do have experts that are they may be well intentioned,

1053
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 3: but they are overreaching in terms of their interpretation. It

1054
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 3: is an overinterpretation of the evidence and it has dire

1055
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 3: consequences when you have an expert come in in front

1056
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 3: of a juror, and they put more weight on that

1057
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 3: expert's opinions than probably what they should.

1058
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the things I don't know if I've

1059
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:07,760
Speaker 2: told you this before, My dad used to say he

1060
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: started the actual Innocence Clinic at the University of Texas,

1061
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 2: and he used to say, I'd rather have fifty criminals

1062
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 2: go free than one person be wrongfully incarcerated. He said

1063
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: that our law has to work in a way where

1064
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,360
Speaker 2: everyone gets a fair shake.

1065
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: And of course it doesn't happen now.

1066
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 2: And one of the things that we do talk about

1067
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 2: a lot with junk science is when it has been

1068
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 2: misused and then when we are able to pull legitimate

1069
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,400
Speaker 2: things out of it, like bloodstained pattern analysis. And I

1070
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 2: think they were looking for void marks, almost a void

1071
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 2: pattern with these teeth marks, and I have a feeling

1072
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 2: that Gordon probably was responsible for this. We don't know

1073
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 2: for sure, but it does seem like an awful lot

1074
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:53,560
Speaker 2: of weird circumstances, but I don't think it was enough,

1075
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 2: certainly to convict him.

1076
00:58:55,400 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 3: Well, my experience working cases is there are suspects which

1077
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 3: circumstantially become convinced they're involved, and then eventually they're eliminated

1078
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 3: and this is where you'll hear sometimes very experienced investigators say,

1079
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 3: I don't believe in coincidences. Coincidences do occur, and so

1080
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 3: that's with Gordon. He's a suspect in my book based

1081
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 3: on the circumstances. However, having work cases in which I've

1082
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 3: had suspects that circumstantially look great and then they're ultimately eliminated,

1083
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: he may be a victim of coincidence until there is

1084
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 3: more convincing evidence in this case, both circumstantially as well

1085
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 3: as physically. I just don't see how they could have

1086
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 3: moved forward with an arrest, let alone a successful prosecution.

1087
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 2: Well, Gordon Hay disappeared. We don't know what happened to him.

1088
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: I would assume at some point he was released, but

1089
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 2: I don't know. And this is just another one of

1090
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: those messy cases where you think one thing, and I

1091
00:59:59,440 --> 01:00:01,600
Speaker 2: was pretty vinced one way, but boy if the evidence

1092
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 2: doesn't back it up. But the bottom line is we're

1093
01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:08,320
Speaker 2: left with Linda Peacock's family, who certainly was in mourning

1094
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 2: and it must have been at least some sort of

1095
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 2: comfort for them to know that their daughter's killer was

1096
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 2: behind bars. But on the other hand, if they had

1097
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 2: any doubt about any of this evidence. How terrifying to

1098
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 2: think that there was someone out there in this small

1099
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:30,200
Speaker 2: town who might have been a local, who I feel

1100
01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,120
Speaker 2: like probably was a local to know about the cemetery

1101
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 2: and how this would have been isolated and a good

1102
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 2: time to do this.

1103
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 1: So what an upsetting case?

1104
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, go hop on your mountain bike and I'm

1105
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 2: going to go first swim and let's try to think

1106
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 2: about the next case and enjoy the weather while we can.

1107
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,439
Speaker 3: I got to take advantage of it when it's here.

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01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:52,959
Speaker 1: Thank you, I'll see you next week.

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01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: All right, sounds good case.

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Speaker 1: This has been and exactly write production.

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01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly rightmedia

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01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones sources.

1113
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

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01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1115
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1116
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,080
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1119
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:28,439
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

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01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 3: Pod Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a

1122
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 3: Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode

1123
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 3: the criminal mind, is available now, and

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01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases,

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01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 2: is also available now