1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: This podcast is a dramatization of fictionalized events that contains 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: culturally insensitive language and violence. Bring order, creator, I've never 3 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: done this before. So where do you want to start? Um, 4 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: let's just start with the basics. I guess let's start 5 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: with your name, title, and why you're relevant to the story. Okay, sure. 6 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: My name is Dr Sam Azotti. I'm the head of 7 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: internal medicine at St. Joseph's Hospital. And when Gerald Hayes 8 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: was in his standoff with the l a p D. 9 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: I was called in to administer care for his hostage. 10 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Sergeant Dan Police And when you got the call, did 11 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: you have any second thoughts or reservations about entering the 12 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: building that night? Sure? But did I consider not going in? No? Never. 13 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: People really don't know how much danger you were in 14 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: that night. And when comparing the time stamp on the 15 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: police department's internal comms with the bar surveillance footage, it's 16 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: pretty clear that you were the only person standing in 17 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: the window at that time that they were considering a 18 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,479 Speaker 1: snipe attempt. I mean, it was It's pretty scary if 19 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 1: you stop to think about it. But I guess I 20 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: caught a break. And what about Gerald? He scare you. No, 21 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: why not? I mean to be honest, I pitied the guy, 22 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: and obviously I don't meet and you know, I'm not 23 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: saying what he did was right, far from it. But 24 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: I saw what they did to his son. So I 25 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: want to play back for you the conversation you were 26 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: having with Gerald after you finished stabilizing Sergeant Place and 27 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: right before you left the building, because you say something 28 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: really interesting that I want to try to understand more. 29 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: Mr Hayes. Sorry, I wasn't given a chance to get 30 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: in here sooner. Maybe if I had, things could have 31 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: worked out differently for your boy. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm 32 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:39,239 Speaker 1: sorry too cool he's coming out, coming out. I've thought 33 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: a lot about this. How could it have worked out 34 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: differently for Niles? Well, he needed urgent care and what 35 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: he got was the exact opposite of that. Ye. Can 36 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: you elaborate on that, sure, But I I think it's 37 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 1: important that I prefaced this by saying I have the 38 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: add advantage point of having read niles is autopsy report. Obviously, Okay, 39 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 1: So basically he needed a breathing tube on site, and 40 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: he should have been placed on a ventilator as quickly 41 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: as possible and my hospital was less than five minutes away. 42 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: The kid basically suffocated to death. So in your expert opinion, 43 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: let's say Gerald surrendered immediately in the medics were able 44 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: to get Niles to the hospital. That I'm almost certain 45 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: that Nile survives, you know, but probably paralyzed for the 46 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 1: rest of his life. But I'm almost certain he survived. 47 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:36,640 Speaker 1: So by that logic, based on your medical opinion, it 48 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: seems undeniable that Gerald is at least some part responsible 49 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: for niles death, right, Yeah, I mean, well, if if 50 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: you look, if you're looking to assign fault, I don't 51 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: see how Gerald doesn't share a portion of the blade. 52 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: It seems like his behavior was negligent at best. But again, 53 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: that's that's just my medical opinion. It's not a legal opinion, right, 54 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh you know, I'm just a doctor, right, 55 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a lawyer. I just have one more thing. 56 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: When you said that you wish things could have turned 57 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: out differently, Gerald says, I'm sorry too. Did you get 58 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: the impression that he was saying he was sorry, like 59 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: he was sorry about the whole situation, Sorry that the 60 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: police dragged their feet and getting a medic or a 61 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: doctor in there, or do you think that he was 62 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: sorry for his actions, that that he didn't actually stand down. Well, yeah, 63 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: I just I just took it as sorry about the 64 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: whole situation. You know, who knows what was really going 65 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: through his mind at the time, especially you know, considering 66 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: the state that he was in. You know, I mean, honestly, 67 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: your guess is as good as mine. You know this much. 68 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 1: I know Niles needed immediate medical attention. He didn't get it, 69 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: and it proved to be fatal. Doctor Zatti's po V 70 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: weighed heavily on me and heart because he's a medical professional, 71 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: but also because he's probably the most impartial person that 72 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: I've had the opportunity to interview in this process, and 73 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: it's forcing me to face something about this investigation that 74 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: I've been sort of doing this weird dance with previously. 75 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: You heard what happened when I pressed Jas about Gerald's 76 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: potential culpability in the way things went down that day. 77 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: Get this thing off me, I ain doing this bullshit. 78 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: I'd be lying if I said that exchange didn't affect me, 79 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: because the truth is, I know I've been pulling my 80 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: punches with Jace ever since for lots of reasons, but 81 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: if I'm being totally honest with myself, the main reason 82 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: is fear. Fear that I might be misconstrued as a 83 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: journalistic Karen of sorts for not being woken enough to 84 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: understand and empathize with the millions of people who voted 85 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: Sergeant Place guilty, and to an extent, I guess you 86 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: can say I feared being canceled or thought of as 87 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,560 Speaker 1: someone who just doesn't get it. If you remember back 88 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: to episode one, I mentioned how my fixation with the 89 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: comment posted by at Wilkinsassi is what started me on 90 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: this journey in the first place, where she said at 91 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: Gerald O g is a hero for taking matters into 92 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: his own hands. But Dr Zotti's assessment not only flies 93 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: in the face of that, it basically implicates Gerald. And 94 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: of course I'm not saying that this in any way 95 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: absolves Sergeant Place an Officer Web of their actions, but 96 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: it does highlight for me how completely unsettled I am 97 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: with how I should view everything that Gerald did that day, 98 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: and so far, the best I can come up with 99 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: is that all of these men, Gerald, Sergeant Place, and 100 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: Officer Web are in varying degrees accomplices accomplices in the 101 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: death of Niles Hayes. But at the end of the day, 102 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: only one person bore the duties of a father. Only 103 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: Gerald had an obligation to Niles that transcends time and space. 104 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: And as admirable and selfless and courageous as it was 105 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: for him to dive into the fray and protect his 106 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: son when the cops were beating on him, well shouldn't 107 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: that same instinct have been enough to make him stand 108 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: down to save his son as well? Bottom line, after 109 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: talking to doctor Assotti, it's just hard to argue the 110 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: fact that Gerald fucked up, and it's reprehensible. So going forward, 111 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: if I'm not drilling down on this point with Jason others, 112 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: I'm just not doing my job, which means, whether I 113 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: like it or not, I have some difficult conversations ahead 114 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: of me. And if I get canceled in the process, 115 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: so be it. Doctor Azadi came into the budge is 116 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: as cool, calm and collected as you want to be. 117 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: So Jason, look, I just want to double back on 118 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: something that came up in my conversation with the doctor 119 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 1: about nats is passing, and I have to ask you 120 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: something point blank, who in your estimation, is responsible for 121 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: his death, Sergeant place in office as well? Who else? Yes? 122 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: But have you given any more thought to the role 123 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: Gerald might have played in this passage? The autopsy report 124 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: indicates that if Niles received timely and I don't exactly 125 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: call being paralyzed from the neck down. Okay, But is 126 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: there any part of you that thinks that Gerald made 127 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: a mistake in not trying to get Nile's medical attention? 128 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: What are you talking about? We did try to get help. 129 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: I was there, I made the calling out, you heard 130 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 1: the takes. You're right, I have. But one could argue 131 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: that if Gerald had surrendered instead of digging his heels 132 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: and Niles would have been taken to the hospital. One 133 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: could also argue, Kate, that if those racists as cops 134 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: didn't beat Niles to death, he would not have died. 135 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 1: And my argument is better. Okay, So you asked me 136 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 1: a question if I think Gerald fucked up? The answer 137 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: is no. Get to the next question. Okay. So Gerald 138 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: never expressed any regrets to you about the way things 139 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: went down? And what about you? What about me? What 140 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: regret anything? So you're blaming me? Now? No, Jase, But 141 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: it's It's only natural to replay events that don't go 142 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: the way that we want them to go and wish 143 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: for some different outcomes. So I never, I never should 144 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: have let now was drive my car's no no, no no, 145 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: no hold up by saying had nothing to do with 146 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: now it's getting killed, didn't it? Though? You were just 147 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: playing that should have would have could have gained with 148 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: me about Gerald surrendering earlier. Well what if now It's 149 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: took Gerald's hooped instead of my car when he went 150 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: to pick up them tickets. Now I'll never get stopped 151 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: by the police, he doesn't get pulled over, he don't die. 152 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: What I regret, Kate, It's the reason I had. Now 153 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 1: I was taking my car, which was what ego. I 154 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,080 Speaker 1: didn't want him pulling up to a Beverly Hills office 155 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: driving Gerald's busted at as always gonna be bild because 156 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: I thought it would make me look bad. But how 157 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: could you have imagined that Niles would end up? That's 158 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: what I've been That's why I'm trying to get you 159 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: to get Every black man in America is already imagine 160 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: a thousand ways how this ship could go wrong. And really, 161 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: you don't even need a fucking imagination because you keep 162 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: seeing this ship over and over over. Mhm. What haunts me? 163 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: What haunts me to this day? It said, Look I 164 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:54,479 Speaker 1: saw in Gerald's face when I gave his boy my cockies. 165 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,719 Speaker 1: They know he knew it was a bad idea, but 166 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: he didn't stop it because he didn't want to disappoint 167 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: his son. For the second time, Jay stopped our interview short, 168 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: but this time he came back, all right, what else 169 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: you want to know? So, um, setting aside right and wrong, 170 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: guilt and innocence, who's to blame and not to blame? 171 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: I mean, is there any part of Gerald's thinking that 172 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: day that you just flat out disagreed with? And you 173 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: need to be most specific, okay, like you just didn't 174 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: understand where he was coming from. Look, okay, so I'll 175 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: say this. I think the one place well Gerald was 176 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: off base and like almost delusional, was him holding onto 177 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: this idea that he would be able to finish the 178 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: trial what without the police doing everything they could to 179 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: stop them, even if that meant risking Sergeant places life 180 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 1: in the process. Gerald had bagged them into such a 181 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: tight spot that they forced to protect something bigger than 182 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: just one cop. Just like the system, and for most 183 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: of the evening G just could not see that, but 184 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: the signs was everywhere. Welcome back to the show. I 185 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: want to pick up the conversation with something we were 186 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: discussing during the break, Go ahead to talk about them, 187 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: Thank you, Ryan. It occurred to me that beyond the 188 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: criminality of vigilante justice, which again I do not endorse, 189 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: I heard just pointing out that if Gerald Hayes is 190 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 1: able to carry out a trial and execute a judgment 191 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: through social media, this will be has disrupted to our 192 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: legal system as Master was to the music industry at 193 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: the turn of the Center, Abster, if I may, yes, Pa, 194 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: And to me, the most important thing is that law 195 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: enforcement do the right thing right now, and to me 196 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: that means the police force needs to take control of 197 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: the situation on and I just don't see how to 198 00:12:58,080 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: let them get as far as thinking that they would 199 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: be justified in executing a police officer and publishing that 200 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: live let a already praise it enough to act as 201 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: if they are as powerful as courts. That's just uncomfortable. 202 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 1: It's wait, wait, wait, let me, let me let me 203 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 1: get to the point there. So what do you say 204 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: they have to neutralize the threatened immediately. Somebody on the 205 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: ground has to be working on that. That was the 206 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: moment I thought it might finally set in for Gerald, 207 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: But when I looked over at him, he still had 208 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: a vibe like it didn't seem to face him. And 209 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: what exactly was it that you expected it? That we 210 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: was in deep ship and it probably would have flown 211 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: right over his head again, But Martin, Martin, of all people, 212 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: may have been the one to finally get through the 213 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: g Listen to this exchange from the surveillance cameras as 214 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: Martin confronts Gerald, you see what you did? Gerald, I 215 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: am fucking talking to you. Don't start with me again, Martin, 216 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: how about you fucking stop? All right? Did you have 217 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: basically signed our death? Want the funk are you talking? 218 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: What am I talking about? That guy just spelled it 219 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: out for you on national television, Like, like, what do 220 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,319 Speaker 1: you think the police were gonna do when they found 221 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: out about your brilliant cops killer plan? Because all you've 222 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: done is giving them an excuse to come in here 223 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 1: and kill us all But but please don't do it 224 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: in the next couple of hours, because I'm a complete 225 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: fucking idiot watching man. No, I have been watching. I 226 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: have been watching everything that's happened today. The cops killed 227 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: your son, okay, and and and I saw that. But 228 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: and I truly am sorry, Gerald, I really am. But 229 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: I am not dying for that ship. Jason. No, Jays, 230 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: you chill the funk out, because I've done chilling because 231 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: this is just not my fight. It's not it's not 232 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: yours either, Jason, you know, okay, But let me ask you, so, Gerald, 233 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: do you really think Jason wants to ride this out 234 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: with you. I've known this fucking for of all time, 235 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: and he's just the self of society, if not more. 236 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: He's just gonna say to your face because you know, 237 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: you guys are boys, remark my words. When push comes 238 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: to shove, he's going to cut you loosely and go 239 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: for somefing just like he did when you guys chance, 240 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: when he rated you up. I bet you think I 241 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: knew that hum In a flash, Jason's reflexes, speed and 242 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: quickness returned to him as he charges. Martin tackles him 243 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: to the ground and then pummels him with a series 244 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: of wild punches and enraged, Jason wraps his hands around 245 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: Martin's neck and starts to squeeze until please, please, please, please, 246 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: please please don't let that be what I think it is. 247 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: You thought Gerald killed certain place I did. Seconds after 248 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: Gerald fires his rifle into the ceiling, the throw line 249 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: phone starts to ring. Listen to this phone call between 250 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: Detective Patterson and Gerald. Gee, what's going on in there? 251 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: It's under control, Detective. Everyone's fine, just needed to blow 252 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: off from steam. Well, we have a lot of cops 253 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: out here. They would love to blossom steam too. Trust me, Gee, 254 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: you don't want that, and I don't want that either. Well, 255 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: Gerald continues his call. In the surveillance video, we see 256 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: Martin collect himself off the ground and staggered towards the 257 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: front door when Gerald stops him. From the looks of 258 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: Martin's body language, you can see a man who's bracing 259 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: for the worst. Detective, I got two outs. That's just 260 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: coming out. We got to coming out. Don't shoot, don't shoot. 261 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: They took my feet out from money so fast, had 262 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: my head face down on the pavement and come white 263 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: and little eyes, my hands behind my back. But I 264 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: could not have felt more relieved, Martin recounts, and I 265 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: vividly remember thinking of myself at the time, I thank 266 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: God like over and done with, you know, but that 267 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: what like I had no idea that that day would 268 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: come to define me and follow me for the rest 269 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: of my life, that would be my legacy. And in 270 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: that sense, you know, what I thought was the end 271 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: was really just the beginning. You know. H I mentioned 272 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: before that people recognize me as the guy who recorded 273 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: what the police did to Niles, and how people see 274 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: me as either usually one of two ways. It's either, Hey, 275 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: you're one of the guys who stood up to the 276 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:52,959 Speaker 1: police man, Good for you, man, or it's you're one 277 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: of those police kidnappers, aren't you. The truth is neither 278 00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: one of those bothers me as much as the third 279 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: type of person. What's the third? You see, there's this 280 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: narrative out there that, uh, I'm somehow a sellout because 281 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: I didn't stay with Gerald to the end. And you 282 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: want to know the toughest thing about that, Hm, it's 283 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: my people who are the ones who call me a 284 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: sell out. So if you could change that narrative, what 285 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: would you want them to know about you? That I'm 286 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: the one guy who, without a doubt didn't commit any 287 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: crimes that day. I'm the one guy who video Niles 288 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: getting brutalized from start to finish, which means I documented 289 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: the truth I protested now is getting beat I protested 290 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: kidnapping a police officer, and I protested killing a police officer. 291 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: And I'm a sell out. I'm not a sellout. I'm 292 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: just a guy who ended up in a really bad 293 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: situation who managed to get out of it. So what 294 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: does that say about you? I'm a Savira Kate. As 295 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 1: a swat team hoisted Martin off the asphalt and marched 296 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: him away from the building. You can see him sort 297 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: of look over his shoulder to see if Jas was 298 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: behind him, but he wasn't there. Listen to this exchange 299 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: between Jason Gerald as Martin gets whisked away from the bar. 300 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: I don't go. Yeah, I'm will hold it down with you. 301 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: Don't worry about that other ship you think all these years. 302 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I know it was you. He slash man, good, good 303 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: old man. Gerald tells you to leave multiple times. He 304 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: forgives you for that thing between you guys when you 305 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: were kids, and you still stayed. Why I don't know. 306 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I didn't look at it so 307 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: much as I was staying to help geraldn't standoff. I 308 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: think it was more. Uh, I think it was this 309 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 1: is my only real rand. He just lost his son 310 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 1: and I ain't going bail plus plus what I mean? 311 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: It was about me too, Other than sports. Whenever things 312 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: have gotten tough in my life, I've always looked for 313 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: the nearest doing marked easy way out. I ran right 314 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:36,959 Speaker 1: through it, not this time. This is a team photo 315 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: from the police department in the Merroal Basketball League. I've 316 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: coaches squad with Detective Homer for twenty years now, but 317 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: this is the only time we won the championship. Palmer 318 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: looks the same. Wait, is that certain place it is? 319 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: I forgot he was on that roster. He was a 320 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: rookie on the forest that year. Here's a pentu. You're 321 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: me being sworn in with you can. As Commander Ammonds 322 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: offers me a virtual tour of his professional life. By 323 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: telling little anecdotes about the many photos hung on his 324 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: office wall, it becomes clearer to me how intimate the 325 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: fraternity among police officers really is. For some reason, I 326 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: always saw Commander Ammonds as other the adult in the room, 327 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,120 Speaker 1: the sensible leader, and don't get me wrong. I still 328 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: think that portrayal is mostly accurate. It's just incomplete. Knowing 329 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: that Commander Ammon's coached a young sergeant place back when 330 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: he was a rookie on the force tells me that 331 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: Ammon's probably isn't quite as impartial as I previously assumed. 332 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: Ammons is true blue, and at the very least, it's 333 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: time to start asking the commander some uncomfortable questions too, 334 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: just like everyone else at the stage of my investigation, 335 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: Please have a seat. So, Commander, having seen body cam 336 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: and dash cam footage from your officers during the Elsays 337 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: traffic stop, were you surprised at all by how aggressive 338 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: they were from the outset? I think if you look 339 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: back at my actions and decisions that day, you get 340 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: a clear indication of what behavior I thought was and 341 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: was not acceptable, whether it was from police officers or otherwise. 342 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: But respectfully, Commander, that's not what I asked. It's one 343 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,199 Speaker 1: thing to condemn inappropriate actions after the fact. Well, I 344 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: get your drift, but there's a context or wish I 345 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: view everything. Okay, what's the context? I know that traffic 346 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: stops and domestic violence calls are the most dangerous scenarios 347 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: that our officers walk into on a daily basis, and 348 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,959 Speaker 1: each one is different. Yes, and I understand that, I 349 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: think everyone does. But now let's set aside the fact 350 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: that there is an inherent level of danger and police work. Well, 351 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: that's my point though, Okay, I don't know that you 352 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: can ever take the threat of danger out of the equation. Okay, fine, 353 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: danger is a fixed part of the equation. I don't 354 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: want to argue that with you. But to the extent 355 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: that you can commander what I'm trying to get from 356 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: you based on your prior interactions with Sergeant Place, does 357 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: it add up that here Officer web for that matter, 358 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,479 Speaker 1: acted the way they did from the outset. Were there 359 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,360 Speaker 1: any red flags or other parts of the equation before 360 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: this traffic stop that indicated something like this might happen? 361 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: If you look at Officer Webb's file, he had two 362 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: complaints for excessive use of force that were resolved through 363 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: mediation and another one that was still under investigation at 364 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: the time of the Hayes traffics. Okay, and what about 365 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: Sergeant Place, and he complains about excessive force, any complaints 366 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: or investigations about using racist language or having views that 367 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: could be characterized as anti black. Sergeant Place and a 368 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: handful of other officers were flagged for comments made an 369 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: online chat room about a racist meme that had been 370 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: passed around. Okay, to my knowledge, that investigation was completed, 371 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: and I believe all officers involved were advised to intend 372 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: the department's racial sensitivity training programs. So basically, what you're 373 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: telling me is that of the two policemen who pulled 374 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: Niles over, one was being investigated for excessive use of 375 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: force and the other one had been involved in an 376 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: investigation for making inappropriate racial comments. Yes, but both men 377 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: were under your command, correct, Yes? M hm, A commander, 378 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 1: do you feel responsible at all for what happened to Niles? 379 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: As you pointed out, these men were under my command. 380 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: So I am burdened by the fact that this traffic 381 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: stop went so horribly wrong on my watch, And I'd 382 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: be lying if I didn't admit that part of the 383 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: problem that I think you're hinting at is institutional as well. 384 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: But ultimately, our officers are accountable for their own actions, 385 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: just as you or I have to be responsible for 386 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: what we do in our lives. And what would you 387 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: say is the primary responsibility of your office order. From 388 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: the time I arrived on the scene that afternoon and 389 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: on into the night, my every move was about finding 390 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: a way for us to diffuse this chaotic powder keg 391 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: and restore order. Okay, did it ever occur to you 392 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: that your opportunity to ensure order was removing Sergeant Place 393 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: an officer went from active duty when they were investigated 394 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: for police brutality and racism. I mean, isn't that your 395 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: powder head right there? I'd be a fool or worse 396 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: kid if I didn't admit that. Your question is one 397 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: worth asking, And maybe that's the lesson here. Diffuse the 398 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: little bombs before they become bigger bombs like the one 399 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 1: we faced that night. I don't have a problem conceding that, because, 400 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: as you know, by the time doctor Azadi exited the 401 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: building and then Martin shortly thereafter, I was facing a 402 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: problem so big that, regardless of how this thing started 403 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: and who started it, we the police were boxed into 404 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,360 Speaker 1: a situation where we had to be proactive in determining 405 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: the final outcome. At that point, I felt I didn't 406 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: have a choice but to go on offense, and that's 407 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: when I had Captain Flores take me and his team 408 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: through the plan and what was that. It was all 409 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: very standard stuff. First we've got the power, then initiate 410 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: a triple breach entry with a RAM at each position. 411 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: Breach position one was at the northeast plate class window 412 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: because that's where we assumed HT one gerald would be. 413 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: Breach position too was at the front door, and breach 414 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: point three was on the west side window, which would 415 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: pretty much have them entering directly into the main bar area. 416 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: My men were given strict orders to maintain muzzle discipline. 417 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: That said, I did, at this juncture finally give them 418 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: the green light to fire. Once the assault had commenced, 419 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: I asked Detective Patterson how he felt when he was 420 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: told that the decision was made to take the building 421 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: by force. Well, that's the thing. Nobody officially told me anything, 422 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: but it was pretty apparent by what was going on. 423 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: The trailer was filled with squad guys and it pretty 424 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: much taken over the space. Close as anyone got to 425 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: tell him me they had given up the negotiations was 426 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 1: when Commander am And slapped me on the shoulder and 427 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: said something to the effect of, if you get the 428 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: h D on the line, again put him at ease 429 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: for us. So yeah, it pretty much told me all 430 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: I needed to know. So anyway, at officer of Rambo's 431 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 1: patched me into the mobile phone just in case Gerald 432 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: did call again, which I'm pretty sure he wouldn't, for 433 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: as I was concerned my work for the night was done. 434 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: When I stepped out the mobile command unit to get 435 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: some fresh air, I saw Hobbs and Homer seated on 436 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: the bench near the brake area. To him looked like 437 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: defeated teammates who had just lost a big game, and 438 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,280 Speaker 1: so I went over to say what's up to them? 439 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: And I noticed out of the corner of my eye 440 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: this woman sitting by herself, and I said, to the guys, 441 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: don't turn around, but it's that the mother sitting at 442 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: your three o'clock. They both nodded their head yes at 443 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: the same time, like they were part of a comedy act. 444 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: I asked if anyone had gone over to talk to her, 445 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: but this time they shook their head no. So I 446 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: went over there and introduced myself. Hobbs and Harmer came too, 447 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: but they sort of hung back. I think most cops 448 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: would rather take a bullet than be the first to 449 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: talk to a grieving mother. Well, what was her I'd say? Detached? 450 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: I offered to have a grief counsel to come sit 451 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: with her, and she waited. What did she say? God 452 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:07,160 Speaker 1: is my grief counselor Kate? In sense, Detective Patterson wasn't 453 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,400 Speaker 1: telling me anything that I hadn't already learned scrolling through 454 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: my phone. I told him exactly what I wanted him 455 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: to do for me. And what was that. Michelle made 456 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: it clear and no uncertain terms, that she wanted to 457 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: see her son before he came out of that building. 458 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: And I told her, if the opportunity presented itself, I 459 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 1: would do everything I could to get her in there. 460 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: But in reality, the way those Square guys were tooling up, 461 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,199 Speaker 1: I was doubt for they would even be a building 462 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: to walk into by the time they were done with 463 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: their assaults. So, Jason, after Martin leaves, what was the 464 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: mood like for you and Gerald while you were waiting 465 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: for me? Each second that passed ratch up more and 466 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: more pressure because I know what's coming next. Yeah, in 467 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: Gun's place, And what was Gerald's mood? Well, he thought 468 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: they had it all under control, So I think it 469 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: since I'm staying anyway, I might as well try to 470 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: talk to him again. Listen to Jay's convey his concerns 471 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: to Gerald. I hate to say it, man, but one 472 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: was right. What cops man bust on that door and 473 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: take us out raid on the raid. I'm going to 474 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: finish my business with that copy for me. Oh yeah, man, 475 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: I feel you. I just wanted to make sure you 476 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: knew what it is. But what if there was a 477 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: way to stop? What did you know what Gerald was 478 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: talking about? There? He sort of trailed off and before 479 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: we could get into it, sad you play started calling 480 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: out again. Hey, I want to go Can somebody give 481 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: you a phone? Please? I just want to go home. 482 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,479 Speaker 1: Gerald walks over to the kitchen and through the double doors. 483 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: Sergeant Place continues his pleas as Gerald stares at the 484 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: policeman's desperation. Please Gerald, have a wife, thinks Susan. I 485 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: have a seven year old, point ninged Dan. The baby 486 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: girl rights. I just want to hear their voices one 487 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: more time. Okay, I just want to see goodbye. When 488 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: we go live, you can see you piece. So they 489 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: taking back to the dining Give me your phone too. 490 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: I need to make a coal Hello, very well, Jake no. 491 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: As Gerald talks on the phone, Jace wheels the policeman 492 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: back to the dining room and positions him on the 493 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: stage where the wounded cop would then wait for nearly 494 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: an hour PM. Sharp Gerald user account goes live again 495 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: on the polycam map. In the surveillance video, we can 496 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: see that Jason is recording the millions of people viewing 497 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: the live streams. See the two shot of Gerald and 498 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: Sergeant Play seated side by side. A running tally at 499 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: the bottom of the screen shows the votes updating in 500 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: real time. The official number when Gerald logs on is 501 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: three million, four hundred eight thousand, two hundred twenty three 502 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: up votes for innocent and three million, five two thousand, 503 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: one thirty eight down votes for guilty. You've got anything 504 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: else that you want to say, so right when Gerald 505 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: goes live, the first thing he does is give Sergeant 506 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: Place the opportunity to speak. But it's clear the policeman 507 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: is fighting to contain his emotions because you just see 508 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: him taking these long, deep breaths and sort of not 509 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: being able to get any words out. Colleen Sanders recounts, 510 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: and part of me wants to say that you could 511 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: hear a pin drop, But that's not an accurate description 512 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: of what it was like outside of Jase's forty two either, 513 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: because there was plenty of noise from helicopters flying overhead 514 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: and generators rumbling. But there was the eerie sensation of 515 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: silence because all of the people, the protesters, the onlookers, 516 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: the media, nobody was saying anything. And you just know instinctually, 517 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: when there's that many people packed into one area, you 518 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: should hear a crowd murmur, but it wasn't there. The 519 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: only voices I do remember hearing was the radio chatter 520 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: going back and forth between police that we were picking 521 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: up off of our scanner. The police radio chatter was 522 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: Captain Flora's giving orders to a swat team. In the 523 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,040 Speaker 1: surveillance video, you can see the captain standing behind two 524 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: cop cars parked at forty five degree angles in the 525 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: shape of a V, positioned immediately in front of the building. 526 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, there was this loud 527 00:32:51,240 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: cheer that swept through the crowd. Solle what what happened 528 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: out there? Confusion? Right? But why While me and my 529 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: team are still huddled around the scanner listening to the 530 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: police radio, we were of course, also watching Gerald's polycam 531 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: live stream on our phones as well, so we pretty 532 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: much know the police or moments away from launching an assault. 533 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: And as the police are literally counting down the seconds 534 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 1: before they make their move, that's when we hear super 535 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: loud roar from the crowd, and someone on the police 536 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: radio chimes in and tries to tell the captain there's 537 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: essentially an armed militia headed towards the restaurant. That was 538 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 1: one of the police nipers exactly. So then the captain 539 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: or someone hears this and tries to issue in order 540 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: to stand down, but between him and other people all 541 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: trying to communicate on the same line at the same time, 542 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: the police communications start coming across super distorted and basically unintelligible. 543 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,439 Speaker 1: One of the swat teams, the one that was also 544 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,839 Speaker 1: responsible for cutting the power, doesn't hear the stand down order, 545 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,320 Speaker 1: so they keep going as originally planned and cut the lights, 546 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: then ram through the plate glass window that leads into 547 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: the main bar area, and that's when they release a 548 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: flash bang. Commander Ammons tells us his thoughts in that 549 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: moment when that flash bang went off, I thought all 550 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: hell was about to break loose you've got armed protesters 551 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: who at this point how their weapons trained on us. 552 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: SWAT is getting mixed signals or no signal at all, 553 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: and who knows how the ht S are gonna respond 554 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: to this. So I take off, running out of the 555 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,479 Speaker 1: command trailer, screaming no go, and literally put my hands 556 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 1: on the lead SWAT team member to prevent them from 557 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: entering the building. Luckily, the other two teams never breached. 558 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: But now you have I don't know, maybe a hundred 559 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: or so armed men with weapons pointed at us the police, 560 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: and of course my men are now taking aim back 561 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 1: at them, And in that moment, I'm just praying that 562 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,839 Speaker 1: nobody starts shooting. But I'm also thinking, how the hell 563 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: did this force mobilize on us so fast? Where did 564 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: they come from? Yeah? I got a phone call on 565 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: my call, I d said Jason, But it wasn't Jackson, 566 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: who was it? It was Gerald? Hello, what's up? Jack? No. 567 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: The first thing I wanted Jail to know that he 568 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: had my simple piece. I'm a father too. I think 569 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: you already know Kick that I thought the world of now. 570 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: So yeah, just a man and man talk. Okay, big age, 571 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: forgive me for being blunt I've listened to the recording 572 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: of the call between the two of you, and Look, 573 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to figure out how and when Gerald 574 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: told you to bring armed men to Jason's forty two. 575 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: You can't figure it out because he didn't never tell 576 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: me to do no ship like that. Big age is right. 577 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: Gerald never makes an explicit request, but he does say this, listen, 578 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: if you need anything, I got you. Yeah, it looked 579 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 1: like one time, I'm trying to take down the movement 580 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 1: before we even finished where we started. You mean the 581 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: world to me, be the homies to show up? Show up? 582 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,879 Speaker 1: What did Gerald mean by show up and show out? 583 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: Does that mean gang bangers? No, it's just some concerned 584 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: citizens making their voices heard. That's all okay, But how 585 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: is it they all ended up at Jason's forty two 586 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: so quickly they all came armed? This is still America? Right? 587 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: Did you coordinate the militia? Look, I put the word 588 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: out to the community that I was headed down to 589 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: Jase's forty two to stand up with cheek for Jason 590 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: and for now. But no, I never asked anyone to 591 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: bring a weapon. As the police mounted their failed assault 592 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: on the building and cut the power. Gerald, to his credit, 593 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 1: never did anything erratic. Even when the flash bang went off, 594 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: He didn't so much as flinch. Instead, as it became 595 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 1: clear that Swatt had aborted their takedown efforts and the 596 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: world around him was diving into a panic, Gerald coolly 597 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 1: offered this dark message before ending his live stream. Nothing 598 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: it's going to stop this trial from finishing. We go 599 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: out again, Bob minutes before to vote close. Join us 600 00:37:52,200 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: next time for the conclusion of Hashtag Hashtag Matter starring 601 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: Amen Joseph as Gerald Hayes, Jennifer Christopher as Kate Bell, 602 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: Steve Harris as Jason shaw Hayley, Joel Osmond as Sergeant Place, 603 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: Pooch Hall as Martin Simms, and Snoop Dogg as Big H. 604 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: Additional performances by Nile Bullock as Nile's Hayes, Serena Pouncey 605 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: as Michelle Hayes, Monte Russell as Detective Patterson, and Alex 606 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: Vaughan as Darrell Hanover. Hashtag Matter was written and directed 607 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: by Dylan C. Brown. Our executive producers are Sandy Bailey, 608 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: Lauren Holman, Dylan Brown, Winnie Kemp, and Amon Joseph. Audio 609 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,919 Speaker 1: designed by Wolf at the Door. Sound design and Mick 610 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: by Josh Falcon, music by Jonathan Sandford, edited by Darren Boland, 611 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: and our sound director is Alexander Kemp. Produced by Toby 612 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 1: Lawless and Lucy Jones. Casting by Lawless Casting. Hashtag Matter 613 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with 614 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and an association with Wolf at the Door. 615 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart 616 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 617 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: favorite shows.