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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm editor Candice Keener, joined by fellow editor Katie Lambert. Hello, Candys,

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Speaker 1: Hi Katie. It doesn't take much to get Katie and

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Speaker 1: me talking about Marie Antoinettees and I was so excited

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Speaker 1: when we got an email from Matt and Middletown, Maryland,

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Speaker 1: who wrote, Hey, Candice and Jane pre Katie. I'm a

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Speaker 1: huge fan of the podcast, and I certainly love a juicy,

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Speaker 1: eerie mystery. One of my favorite podcasts in particular was

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Speaker 1: the podcast you did a couple of months ago on

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Speaker 1: the Pie Piper of Hamlin. I was wondering if I

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Speaker 1: could possibly get another dose of that same kind of

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Speaker 1: crazy mystery with any stories of historical ghosts or Poulter geists.

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Speaker 1: In particular, I've heard an extremely juicy book about two

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Speaker 1: women that visited the gardens of her sigh and experienced

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Speaker 1: some extremely eerie ghost encounters. What is the history of

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Speaker 1: the situation and could you possibly divulge into any other

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Speaker 1: fascinating ghost stories of the past. I was really intrigued

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Speaker 1: by Matt's email because I've never heard of the book.

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Speaker 1: So I wrote him back and he wrote me back.

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Speaker 1: We had a lovely little correspondence going and he told

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Speaker 1: me the title. I looked it up, got it, read it,

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Speaker 1: and he pointed out that it, to quote him again,

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Speaker 1: combines two interesting eras with the medium and spirit infatuation

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Speaker 1: of the late eighteen hundreds in early nineteen hundreds and

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Speaker 1: the French Revolution. And he's absolutely right. And since Katie

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Speaker 1: and I started doing this multi part series on historical ghosts,

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Speaker 1: it was a perfect fit. And before we get too

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Speaker 1: much into the history of the place, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: set the scene a little bit. So we're going to

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Speaker 1: travel back to nineteen o one and two English ladies

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Speaker 1: are on their way to Versailles, and they're headed to

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Speaker 1: the Petit Trional, which was Marie Antoinette's private little hamlet.

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Speaker 1: And as they're walking along, it's deserted. They get lost,

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Speaker 1: they don't quite know where they are. They see a

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Speaker 1: plow by the road, and as they keep walking they

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Speaker 1: start to feel anxious and depressed and everything around them

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Speaker 1: gets kind of dim and they meet these strangely dressed

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Speaker 1: men who try to point the point the way to

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Speaker 1: Petit Trion on and then they meet a very unpleasant

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Speaker 1: scarred man who frightens them, and a running man who

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Speaker 1: comes up and tells them where to go, until they

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Speaker 1: actually get to the Petit Trional and they see a

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Speaker 1: wedding party and the mood lifts, and they go on

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Speaker 1: their way, and they in the afternoon by having tea

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Speaker 1: and going back to their hotel in Paris, and they

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Speaker 1: don't talk about what happened for a couple of months,

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Speaker 1: and then it just so happens that one day they're

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Speaker 1: writing letters and writing their accounts of what happened, just

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Speaker 1: you know, for their friends back home, and one turns

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Speaker 1: to the other and says, do you think the Petit

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Speaker 1: Trianon is haunted? And absolutely is their response, which is

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Speaker 1: so range because they hadn't shared with each other how

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Speaker 1: depressed and how heavy their moods had gotten when they

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Speaker 1: were wandering through the grounds, even though both of them

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Speaker 1: felt that they were they were being good friends and

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Speaker 1: good traveling companions and trying to you know, buck up

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Speaker 1: and go about the tour, but they couldn't explain the

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Speaker 1: strange feeling. And what's more, when they started sharing their

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Speaker 1: experiences and recalling the sites that they've seen, they realized

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Speaker 1: that the other had seen things that the other hadn't,

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Speaker 1: and the most poignant site that one had missed was

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Speaker 1: a woman with a sketch pad who was dressed in

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Speaker 1: a very strange period costume. She had very fluffy hair,

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Speaker 1: on top of which was perched a hat, and her

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Speaker 1: face was described as being a little bit older and

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Speaker 1: supposedly attractive. Like the woman could tell that she was

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Speaker 1: supposed to find her a pretty woman, but she didn't.

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Speaker 1: There was something unsettling about her, and later she would

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Speaker 1: conclude that that was actually her Antoinette. So let's go

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Speaker 1: a little bit into the history of Trianon. Yes, like

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Speaker 1: Katie mentioned this most Marie Antoinette's pleasure house. It was

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Speaker 1: a gift from her husband, Louis sixt the three story

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Speaker 1: building that was originally erected by Louis fifteen for his mistress,

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Speaker 1: Madame Pompadour. But Marie Antoinette grew very fatigued of life

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Speaker 1: at court when she was on the throne alongside her husband,

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Speaker 1: and so too uh give her an escape from the

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Speaker 1: rigors of court, he offered her petit trying on, and

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Speaker 1: later she decided to embellish the house with a little

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Speaker 1: hamlet like Katie and in two very rustic countryside town

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Speaker 1: with pretend farmhouses and pretend farm equipment. It was all

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Speaker 1: very much a product of her imagination, but it was

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Speaker 1: incredibly expensive. It cost about two million francs to build.

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Speaker 1: And supposedly while she was there she had a very well,

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Speaker 1: this is true, she had a very explosive coterie that

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Speaker 1: was invited to visit. But supposedly she had a Theirs

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Speaker 1: with Hans Axel von first And and the Duchess de Polignac.

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Speaker 1: And on October five nine, Marie Antoinette was at the

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Speaker 1: Petitrion on when a messenger came to tell her that

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Speaker 1: a mob from Paris was on its way to Versailles,

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Speaker 1: a violent mob from Paris with the idea of either

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Speaker 1: capturing or killing her and Louis the sixteens, And that's

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Speaker 1: why that date figured so strongly in her mind. On

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Speaker 1: August tent in, which is oddly the date in nineteen

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Speaker 1: o one that the two ladies had gone to Versailles,

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Speaker 1: and they believed that they had time slipped into one

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Speaker 1: of Marie Antoinette's memories, and August ten was a significant

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Speaker 1: date because that's when she and Louis were on trial

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Speaker 1: and the Hall of the Assembly, and they had seen

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Speaker 1: their Swiss guards massacred in the Tweeler. Right, So is

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Speaker 1: this this time slip or time travel. It's just it's

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Speaker 1: very strange for me to out my head around, especially

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Speaker 1: as far as ghost stories go. Be has When I

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Speaker 1: think of a ghost story, and when I heard about

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Speaker 1: this one from Matt, I guess I imagined that the

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Speaker 1: women would be on the grounds of your Side and

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Speaker 1: they would run into Marie Antoinette, and it would be, oh,

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Speaker 1: a gros Lan encounter. But it goes a step further

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Speaker 1: than that. It's almost like a being John Malkovich moment

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Speaker 1: where they're in her mind and things are sort of

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Speaker 1: foggy and less bright and less clear. They're living through

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Speaker 1: her experiences, but they're seeing her years ago. So it

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Speaker 1: would have been Marie Antoinette remembering Marie Antoinette in nine

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Speaker 1: Yer or layers in an Onion and an Ogre. So

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Speaker 1: just to get with the story, these two women, they

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Speaker 1: decide to write down their accounts separately, without one informing

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Speaker 1: the other, so that they can be as accurate as possible,

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Speaker 1: and they appeal to the society for psychical research to

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Speaker 1: investigate tren On on the grounds that there may be

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Speaker 1: posts Sarah, but their claim is denied. So they decided

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Speaker 1: to investigate the matter for themselves, and being two academics,

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Speaker 1: they did quite a bit of research everywhere from the

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Speaker 1: Conservatory of Music in Paris to the National Archives. And

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Speaker 1: that's another reason that they use pseudonyms to write the book.

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Speaker 1: They didn't want their names to be damaged in academic circles,

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Speaker 1: so not until their death didn't come out that they

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Speaker 1: were two women of good intellectual means. They published an

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Speaker 1: Adventure in nineteen eleven under the names of Miss Morrison

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Speaker 1: and Miss Lamant, and the book was pretty sensational and

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Speaker 1: much talked about, but also widely criticized until again after

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Speaker 1: their deaths, it came out that these were two very

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Speaker 1: well respected women. They were the principal and vice principle

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Speaker 1: of St. Hugh's College in Oxford, and in their account

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Speaker 1: they claimed they had twenty points of coincidence which couldn't

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Speaker 1: be coincidental. Uh No, pun intended all of these items

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Speaker 1: and scenes and people that they had seen smacked of

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Speaker 1: seventeen eighty nine, but they were seeing them in nineteen

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Speaker 1: o one. And there were subsequent visits that they also

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Speaker 1: took to train on um. After the first visit on

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Speaker 1: August tenth, nineteen o one, Miss Lamont went on her

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Speaker 1: own January second, nineteen o two, and on that date

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Speaker 1: she also times slipped, becoming lost in very dense woods

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Speaker 1: and feeling enclosed by a huge crowd of people with

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Speaker 1: rustling silk skirts, but with no one around. Then they

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Speaker 1: went back for the third time, and then the fourth

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Speaker 1: time on July seven, nineteen o four. In July nine,

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Speaker 1: and they were with a companion on one of those days,

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Speaker 1: and there were many many tourists there on another day,

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Speaker 1: and they found that the grounds were, as they said,

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Speaker 1: entirely changed. They were smaller, more compact, cleaner. Before there

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Speaker 1: had been the sort of romantic tangle of grasses and

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Speaker 1: weeds and flowers and rocks and streams and little buildings,

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Speaker 1: and none of that was there anymore. So totally different landscape.

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Speaker 1: And that was the cool thing for me about the

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Speaker 1: book was the level of detail, because they do go

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Speaker 1: being academics, point by point with footnotes and appendices and

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Speaker 1: illustrations to show exactly what they were seeing, and then

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Speaker 1: a rebuttal to any possible questions exactly, and one of

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Speaker 1: their bottles that they said, and I'm actually going to

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Speaker 1: acquite the whole thing. They asserted, both of us have

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Speaker 1: inherited a horror of all forms of occultism. We lose

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Speaker 1: no opportunity of preaching against them as unwholesome and misleading

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Speaker 1: because they mostly deal with conditions of physical excitement. And

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Speaker 1: they go on to add to that. But the point

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Speaker 1: being they're saying, we are basing this entirely on facts.

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Speaker 1: So let's go over some of those facts. And the

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Speaker 1: one I'd like to begin with is the specter of

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Speaker 1: Marie Antoinette that they supposedly saw. And the woman who

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Speaker 1: described her as aforementioned said, she was supposedly an attractive woman,

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Speaker 1: very fluffy hair. And later on she saw a very

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Speaker 1: famous portrait of Marie Antoinette, which had long been hailed

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Speaker 1: as the queen's most accurate likeness. And here's the eerie part.

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Speaker 1: The queen was wearing the exact same outfit and the

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Speaker 1: portrait as the ghost was and the grounds of bataeron on,

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Speaker 1: and it was the Vertmoller portrait, which is supposed to

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Speaker 1: be one of the most identical likenesses to Marie Antoinette,

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Speaker 1: the one that actually looks like her, and like many

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Speaker 1: portraits of the period, exactly and beginning with their their steps,

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Speaker 1: tracing their steps throughout the grounds where they get lost.

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Speaker 1: And again they tell in the book that they come

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Speaker 1: to Versailles with no preconceived notions of what they're going

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Speaker 1: to see. They're not entirely familiar with the history of

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Speaker 1: the palace, and they wanted to conduct their travels in

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Speaker 1: France and a chronological order of some sort. I'm not

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Speaker 1: quite sure what they meant by that, presumably with the

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Speaker 1: events seating out to the revolution. But they went to

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Speaker 1: Versailles a couple of days early, and they were using

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Speaker 1: a certain map and lost their way, and one of

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Speaker 1: the first strange items that appeared to them was this plow.

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Speaker 1: And the plow was definitely not contemporary to nineteen o

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Speaker 1: one for one reason, there was no need for a

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Speaker 1: plow on the grounds. They were handled in an entirely

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Speaker 1: different maintenance sort of way. And it was one from

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Speaker 1: the pre Luis sixteenth era that had been relegated to

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Speaker 1: use as a prop at tree and on. It was

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Speaker 1: later sold off after the couple was deposed. So why

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Speaker 1: would it have been there, and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: details about the people they ran into, such as the costuming,

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Speaker 1: they later found out were related to events at the period,

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Speaker 1: Like they'd seen these men in green coats and had

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Speaker 1: assumed at the time that they were gardeners. But the

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Speaker 1: more research they did, they realized that Marie antoinette Swiss

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Speaker 1: guards were green, and that modern gardeners actually were black

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Speaker 1: and most seasons, and white in the summer. And the

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Speaker 1: very unpleasant man that they saw with the scarred face

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Speaker 1: looked very much like the Comte de Vaudroy. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: if I'm not saying that correct, who was scarred by

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Speaker 1: smallpox and was an enemy of Marie Antoinette's, in fact

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Speaker 1: betrayed her. And that's the point of contention that I

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Speaker 1: found between the book itself and some other research that

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Speaker 1: I did. I read that at one time he was

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Speaker 1: a member of this core degree that was welcome at

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Speaker 1: train On, but he wanted Marie to ask Louise permission

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Speaker 1: to play a part in the marriage of Figura, which was,

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Speaker 1: as the woman said, a politically dangerous play. So they

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Speaker 1: would have been friends, but then that friendship would have

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Speaker 1: gone sour, which might explain why he was giving off

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Speaker 1: such a strange air of evil when the woman saw

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Speaker 1: him exactly. Louis had said that if they put on

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Speaker 1: that play that it was, it was likely that the

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Speaker 1: bus steal would be stormed. And after the starming of

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Speaker 1: the bast steel, not too long after came the mob

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Speaker 1: of Parisian women that marched to Versailles to take Marie

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Speaker 1: and Louis. So the dangerous art point taken. They also

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Speaker 1: found at chiosk Uh. They continually called it a kiosk

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that's the most appropriate name for

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Speaker 1: the structure, but it was composed of seven ionic columns

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Speaker 1: and a domed roof, and they litter found evidence of

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Speaker 1: this and plans that had been sketched for trying on,

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Speaker 1: but it certainly was not present in nineteen o one.

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Speaker 1: Also that running man that they saw they believed to

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Speaker 1: have been the page who ran to tell Marie Antoinette

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Speaker 1: that the mob was on its way, and at the

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Speaker 1: time it said that she suggested just going back through

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Speaker 1: the forest to get back to petit trying on and

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Speaker 1: and to leave the grounds, but he said no, and

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Speaker 1: that he would run and get a coach to come

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Speaker 1: and get her. Instead, and they said that both times

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Speaker 1: they saw this running man, he was breathless but seemed

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Speaker 1: to come out of nowhere and then disappeared again. And

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Speaker 1: he correct me from ron Katie. It was also the

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Speaker 1: one who offered them directions on which way to go

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Speaker 1: to find the house. Is that right, I believe. But

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Speaker 1: the strange thing is they were told that after seventeen nine,

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Speaker 1: when the grounds were open to the prying eyes of

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Speaker 1: the public, it was government owned land at that point

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Speaker 1: and the only directive given to tourists was just be

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Speaker 1: out by dark. So they were told later the women

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Speaker 1: to be clear that no one would have been giving

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Speaker 1: them specific directions and that part of the grounds they

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Speaker 1: would have been free to wander as they like. So

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Speaker 1: it's very odd that this frantic man would tell them

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Speaker 1: specifically which way to go. Another strange piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: is that a footman appeared at the house, the three

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Speaker 1: storied pe teachering On house, and he came out of

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Speaker 1: a door and slammed it very hard and noticeably. Yet

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Speaker 1: that door had been locked for years and years, and

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Speaker 1: only one man had the key and had never opened

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Speaker 1: it that day. And when miss Lamont returned by herself

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Speaker 1: on her own visit, she heard this strange, low pitched,

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Speaker 1: repetitive music, and so she wrote down what she could remember,

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Speaker 1: and she brought them to a music expert who listened

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Speaker 1: to it, did some research, and added them to a

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Speaker 1: melody from around seventeen eighty And it was a distinctive

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Speaker 1: melody because there had been, as he said, a mistake

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Speaker 1: in the notes, and it was very distinctive of a

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Speaker 1: particular composer. Sacchini, I believe right, so very telling, and

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Speaker 1: it's it seems like all of these points of coincidence.

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Speaker 1: As the woman said, whose real names I'm sure they

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Speaker 1: won't mind if I reveal since they are deceased are

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Speaker 1: Charlotte Anne Moberly and Eleanor f Jourdan. They said it

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Speaker 1: couldn't be coincidental. They were dead certain that they had

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Speaker 1: time traveled back to seventeen eighty nine ers I, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that they did come from such respectable backgrounds

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Speaker 1: gave people pause. Moberly's father was the Bishop of Salisbury,

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Speaker 1: they were both daughters of clergymen, They were both very

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Speaker 1: well educated, and the idea that they wouldn't be telling

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Speaker 1: the truth it seemed entirely implausible, and for a while

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Speaker 1: their academic status added merit to their report. And then

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Speaker 1: sentiment turned a bit and people started to think that

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Speaker 1: they were two women who wanted so badly to believe

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Speaker 1: what they had seen that they did too much research

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Speaker 1: and convinced themselves of the ghosts of treon On and

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Speaker 1: one man in particular film fault with them. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: fifty W. H. Palter investigated the letters they had originally

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Speaker 1: written to the Society for Psychical Research in one and

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Speaker 1: he found that they didn't contain nearly as many details

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Speaker 1: as their nineteen six accounts did, and so he was

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Speaker 1: one of the primary voices saying, look, they just went

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Speaker 1: too far with their research. They may have seen something strange,

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Speaker 1: but they have completely inflated it. It's not true. And

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Speaker 1: Salter was a fellow of the Royal Society, so his

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Speaker 1: words did carry wait. And he also made the claim

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Speaker 1: that perhaps it was just yet another Marie Antoinette fixation,

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Speaker 1: like that of the medium A. Len Smith, which had

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Speaker 1: been exposed in the press not too long before that. So,

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Speaker 1: whether you choose to believe the time slip ghost story

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Speaker 1: or not, Marie Antoinette is a fascinating figure, and if

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Speaker 1: you want to pick up the book. It's a very

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Speaker 1: slim little volume. You could finish it in an afternoon,

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Speaker 1: and I will warn you that it helps to have

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Speaker 1: a good working knowledge of French reading comprehension. It's been

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Speaker 1: quite a while for me, and so I had to

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Speaker 1: skip over a few passages, and I was remarking to

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Speaker 1: Katie how disappointed I was, because a lot of their

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Speaker 1: evidence hinges on these um these French passages, one of

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Speaker 1: the women would write. But then I learned that colon

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Speaker 1: long French passage, and I was convinced, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I wish I could be convinced to I really missed

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Speaker 1: that one. And just as a little bit of an epilogue,

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Speaker 1: UM critic Terry Castle writes in the Female Thermometer and

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Speaker 1: also in the Apparitional Female, I believe um that perhaps

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Speaker 1: this was a bit of a lesbian folliade, which Folia

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Speaker 1: does basically um infectious insanity, which is when two people

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Speaker 1: have the same psychosis. And sheep leaved that Mobile and Jorgia,

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Speaker 1: who did live together for twenty three years after the incident,

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Speaker 1: had perhaps repressed homosexual longings, and that they identified with

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Speaker 1: Marie Antoinette, who also had many homosexual rumors about her

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Speaker 1: and the Madame Dapolnac and the Princess Lombal, and that

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Speaker 1: that was why this was something that was so important

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Speaker 1: to them. Well, that is certainly an interesting reading and

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Speaker 1: whether or not it colors your interpretation of the ghost story.

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Speaker 1: I know some people sometimes believe that ghosts try to

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Speaker 1: communicate more with people who they believe will be sympathetic

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Speaker 1: to their interests, so that could be a connection. But

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Speaker 1: in the meantime, if you want to learn more about

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Speaker 1: Marie Antoinette and Virsai as well as the French Revolution,

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Speaker 1: we invite you to look at those articles on the

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Speaker 1: website how stuff works dot com. For more on this

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Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff works dot

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Speaker 1: com and be sure to check out the stuff you

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Speaker 1: missed in History Class blog on the house stuff works

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Speaker 1: dot com home page. Bo Blue