WEBVTT - Part One: How Lawrence of Arabia Invented Modern War 0:00:01.800 --> 0:00:09.240 Also media, Oh, what's the Dodgers won the World Series? 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:10.239 The Daughters won the World Series? 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:12.920 Won the World Series? Not that's not the open is 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:13.880 dressed up as a Dodger. 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:16.439 I was dressed up as Kendle Roy. 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.680 This is Behind the Bastards, a podcast where Robert is 0:00:19.760 --> 0:00:22.560 very disappointed because I had a whole bit planned to 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:25.919 do with my guest. Oh, Margaret kill Joy, do you 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:26.440 could think. 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.040 This is a four part or do it next time? 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.400 Margaret? Have you have you? How do you feel about 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:37.680 bringing back thylacine foxes which are extinct? That's the Tasmanian tiger. 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.520 But this company says they've got it figured out, they're 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:41.760 going to be able to clone them. 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:44.919 You know, land on that kind of stuff that I am, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.520 but I'm a little bit on like bring on the dinosaurs. 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.959 Ca Yep, that's I've got. 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.199 I've got a plan for how we can how we 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.280 can make this work for the Democratic Party. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.840 Well, Trump probably wants to bring back back the ore ox. 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:00.000 Yeah, I mean, I honestly, I don't mind bringing back 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.880 the ROX, but I would focus on the dinosaurs, and 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:06.440 I think what we do here. You know, obviously America 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:10.000 has a massive problem with gun violence. But we've already 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.040 seen from the last like twenty years it's basically impossible 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.040 to do much about it. You know, the Supreme Court 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:20.880 particularly has come down against any kind of like functional 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:26.119 laws on that regard. So let's work around the problem. Right, 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:29.520 people can't die of gun violence if every American is 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.200 dying early in a dinosaur park accident. And I honestly 0:01:33.200 --> 0:01:37.400 think if we rejigger our entire economy around cloning dinosaurs, 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:40.120 putting them in parks, and then having those parks kill 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:44.240 everyone at the park, we could solve basically all of 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:47.840 our current domestic issues. Right, you know, nobody's going to 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.720 be you know, all of this shit the GOP is 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.320 going on about migrants, you know about trans people. If 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:56.120 everyone's just dying to dinosaurs, right, you know, there's no 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.520 more problems we do think every issue in American society. 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:01.680 I think it would be good for humanity to not 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:05.040 always be the top of the food chain. I think 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.800 that if as you were getting ready to go to work, 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.519 you opened the door, and like a rabbit exiting her burrow, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.359 you had to look both ways for predators. 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.440 Because the Veloci raptors escaped from Disney World again, like 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.520 they do every day. Yeah, yeah, okay, I think this 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:23.600 is good. I think this solves all of our problems. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:28.040 Anderson's dressed is Kendall Roy from Succession, and I'm very 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:29.200 proud of this costume. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:32.360 Yeah, who is a baseball? If you're watching this and 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.480 you don't know what that is, h kender Roy is 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:38.160 a baseball with the Dodger and l to the old 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:39.720 He's the best. 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.200 He's the best linebacker in the New York Yankees the. 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.000 New York Lakers. Yeah, oh my god, I've got to 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:49.160 sit the New York Yankees. But yes, that that's even 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:58.520 better killing me, Margaret. 0:02:58.840 --> 0:03:03.680 Speaking of the Yanks, you know, that's a team for 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.760 all of the rich assholes in America. But before we 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.880 had the New York Yankees, we had their political equivalent, 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.200 the British Empire. How do you feel about the British Empire, Magpie? 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:15.560 Primarily negative? 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:20.720 Primarily negative. Well, I guess that's pretty obvious because they're terrible. Yeah, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:23.840 what do you know about probably like the most famous 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:28.200 hero of the British Empire of the twentieth century, Lawrence 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:29.160 of Arabia. 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:32.760 I know almost nothing about Lawrence of Arabia, but I'm 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.200 very excited about excellent. I've been recently really interested in 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.280 learning more about the Ottoman Empire. We'll be talking Ottomans. 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:40.880 Oh yeah, oh yeah, cool. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.520 A lot of Ottoman shit is going to be going 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.520 down in this story. So this is, you know, maybe 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:49.680 a slightly different kind of behind the Bastards episode because 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.560 I think, like the title of this could be, was 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.960 Lawrence of Arabia a bastard? And that's a complicated question. 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.400 He is a guy who the appraisals of him have 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.400 gone kind of back and forth since his death in 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:08.520 nineteen thirty five, from like, oh, you know, he was 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.840 this hero of the empire and a hero of the 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.800 Arab people who like backed their liberation from ottom and tyranny, 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.880 to he was an agent of imperialism who like betrayed 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:25.840 and you know, manipulated these Arabs that he claimed to 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.920 care about, and has a lot to do with the 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.600 modern fucked up state of much of the Middle East 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.440 and the Muslim world, Like a lot of our current 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.280 lot of like what's going on in Gaza right now, 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.520 in fact, does have a lot of direct ties to 0:04:39.640 --> 0:04:42.960 Lawrence of Arabia. And then you know to today where 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.480 I think there's another reappraisal going on, and you've even 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.880 got some like left wing scholars. You were saying, well, actually, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:50.800 like the really critical views of this guy are not 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.520 entirely fair. So it's one of those things what kind 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.760 of will repeatedly revisit, Like where do we think this 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.200 guy's landing? Is this guy a bastard? Is he maybe 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:01.640 a cool person? Or is he kind of somewhere in 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:02.160 the middle. 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.960 Are you saying that historical people can be morally complex 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.960 and so yes, yeh wow, absolutely, that would destroy both 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:12.920 of our show's concepts if that were true. 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.400 And it's also he is particularly hard to judge because 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:19.000 he was a spook, right, he's a spy, you know, 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.280 he is an intelligence, and so he lies to everyone 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:24.840 constantly the entire life. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:26.800 Often for good reasons. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:28.520 A lot of his lies are like, well, I would 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.680 have tried to do the same thing in his situation, right, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:32.400 And then a lot of his lies are like, oh, 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:34.640 well I can see why that, Like, the guilt from 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:36.920 doing this destroyed your entire life, Lawrence. 0:05:36.960 --> 0:05:37.920 That was pretty fucked up. 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.440 So he's a guy I have always been interested in 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:44.880 him because it was my dad's favorite movie. And I'll 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:49.120 tell you right now. The I rewatched late last year 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.840 the Lawrence of Arabia movie from the sixties whenever it. 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:53.640 Was holds up. 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:56.599 If you haven't seen it, I really do recommend watching 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:59.240 it because it's fucking gorgeous. You know, it was made 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:00.800 in an era when if you were going to make 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.279 a movie about T. E. Lawrence, you sent a bunch 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:05.640 of dudes out to the desert and you blew up 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:07.839 trains with dynamite. There was no other way to get 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.919 those shots. And that's pretty cool. I think he's also 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.400 really relevant because one thing we all share as Americans, 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.760 you know, whether you're left or right or centrist, is 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:28.400 this very strange and somewhat incoherent love for insurgents, even 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.960 though we also find ourselves constantly fighting and losing wars 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.880 two insurgents and this all. You know, it has its 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.080 roots in the kind of mythic origin of our nation, 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.880 the Revolutionary War, but it also has its roots in 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:42.880 you know, I think at this stage we have to 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:45.679 acknowledge that George Lucas is as much a founding father 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.600 of this nation as George Washington, right, and so like, 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.320 you know, it's kind of impossible to separate the our 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:53.760 love of the you know, the the Founding fathers and 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.440 their insurgents struggle from like fucking rebel alliance, which we 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.559 all learned about at age like four. 0:06:59.720 --> 0:06:59.960 You know. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:05.000 Yeah, So we're going to talk about te Lawrence this week. 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.120 And when I brought Lawrence up in conversations, particularly with 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.640 friends who are on the left, I noticed that I 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.800 think the general, the general trend is for people to 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:16.760 write him off as like an orientalist and imperialist and 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:19.920 you know, the British Empire's equivalent of the CIA agents 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:23.920 who spent most of the twentieth century overthrowing democratically elected 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.600 governments around the world. And it's fair to view him 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.840 as all of those things. There's an extent to which 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.760 all of those are accurate descriptions of the man. But 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.520 he's also not someone you can ignore if you are 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.520 on the left, especially if you're if you're one of 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:39.840 these people who has ever sat around talking about like, 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:43.920 you know, revolution and like, could you know some sort 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:47.280 of like insurgent left wing movement, you know, take power, 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:49.920 you know, defeat the United if any of that is 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.760 shit that you care about, if you just care about 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:55.160 you know, what's happening over in Gaza. If you're interested 0:07:55.200 --> 0:08:02.440 at all in how asymmetric warfare can topple powerful states, right, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.600 you have to study Lawrence of Arabia, because in some 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.360 very important ways he invented like how warfare works in 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:14.400 the twenty first century. Like he is the guy who 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:19.000 created and codified our modern concept of how an insurgent 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:23.160 struggle works, right, you know, and that's people are going 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.200 to be like, well, that's ridiculous if you think of 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:28.040 an insurgent struggle as just like some dudes who aren't 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.600 regular soldiers, like ambushing imperial troops in the desert or whatever. Right, 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:34.679 Like that's been going on for for fucking ever. Right, 0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.720 you know, that shit was happening when the Romans were around. 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:40.880 It happened to the Greeks, happened to a fucking Alexander 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.319 the Great Troops when they marched through Afghanistan. 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:43.600 Right. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.280 But that's not what an act. That's not what modern 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.960 insurgent warfare means. Modern insurgent warfare is a much more 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:56.200 complicated thing that involves the use of insurgent troops alongside 0:08:56.800 --> 0:09:00.760 regular national troops and a struggle between empire that takes 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:05.240 place over a wide geographical area, right, Like, you know, 0:09:05.360 --> 0:09:09.400 when you look at how Vietnam won their war, it 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:12.640 wasn't that the viet Cong just outfought the Americans and 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:15.440 the Jungles. It was that the viet Cong participated in 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:19.840 a very complex struggle that also involved regular state forces 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:22.760 that had the backing of other empires. And you know, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.680 that conflict took place not just as a conflict in Vietnam, 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.120 but as part of a broader conflict between the Soviet 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.520 Union and the United States. And the way that worked was, 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.120 you know, heavily informed by a lot of the theories 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:40.280 that Te Lawrence wrote out as a result of what 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:44.160 he's doing in the Arab Peninsula during World War One. 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:46.880 And to make that case, because I'm sure there's some 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:49.000 people being like, what the fuck are you talking about, Robert, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:51.880 That's nonsense. I want to talk go a little bit 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.760 ahead of the story right before we actually talk about 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.120 Lawrence's life to something that happened about a decade after 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:03.840 he died in nineteen four. Now, this is a story 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:06.400 that relates to what would become the Vietnam War. But 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:09.000 in nineteen forty six, you know that the Vietnam War, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.200 the Indo China conflict. It's not really an armed struggle 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.000 quite yet. It's still at this point a disagreement over 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.520 the region of Asia than known as French Indo China. 0:10:19.000 --> 0:10:21.520 During the rule of Napoleon the Third, powerful interests in 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.480 the French Navy had succeeded in pushing from military control 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.360 in the region that had expanded across much of modern 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.120 Vietnam until their control. France's control was interrupted by Japan 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.920 during World War Two. Now, if you know anything about 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.800 Vietnamese history, the Vietnamese people had a long history of 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:41.720 identifying as like, we are Vietnamese and we are not 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.360 the people who are in charge of our land right now. 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:48.280 Right Vietnam's history has a lot of occupation by foreign powers, 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:51.240 and the end result of that is that when Japanese 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:55.320 occupiers took over, they met with spirited resistance. Now, one 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:57.920 of the leaders of that resistance was a man named 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.480 vo When Japp, who, by any stretch of the imagination, 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.320 deserves to go down as one of the great military 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.400 leaders of all time, and you could argue is probably 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.080 the greatest war leader of the twentieth century. During his 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.720 long and storied life which ended in twenty thirteen, I 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:18.520 had realized he made it so long. Japp led Vietnamese 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:22.200 forces to victories against the Empire of Japan, France, the 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:24.959 United States, and what you could either call a victory 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.960 or at least a solid draw against China, and like, 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:30.960 who else has that record? Who else could claim that shit? 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:31.839 That's amazing. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:34.120 Yeah. 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:37.120 From nineteen forty one to nineteen seventy two, he was 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:40.920 the military commander of the Vietmen, and he orchestrated the 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.760 Battle of Dian Benfu, which forced an end to French 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.400 occupation of his land. Now, before Dan Binfu in nineteen 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.679 forty six, it was not necessarily a foregone conclusion that 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:55.040 Japan and France were going to fight, right, the Vietnamese 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:58.120 had helped to oust the Japanese occupier, and they were 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:02.760 kind of there were negotiations taking place between Vaux and 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:07.920 the Vietman and you know, the French political and military establishment, 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.360 and there was at least some hope that maybe a 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.319 conflict could be avoided. So Vo sits down in Hanoi 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.439 in nineteen forty six for a meeting with General Raoul 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.760 Salon to see if there was a way to work 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.200 things out peacefully in a manner, you know, Salon at 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.240 least is like in a manner that still leaves France 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.400 basically in charge, right, And obviously this was a doomed measure, 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.079 but they don't necessarily know that at the time. One 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:32.640 of my sources for these episodes is the excellent book 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:36.560 Guerrilla Leader by James Schneider, a professor of military theory 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.920 at the School for Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth. 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.959 Schneider opens his book with the story of Jopp and 0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:47.400 Salon's meeting and describes it this way. Toward the end 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.559 of the meeting, discussion turned towards Jop's success in resisting 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:54.560 the Japanese occupation of Indochina since nineteen forty. Salon wanted 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.319 to know the source and inspiration of Jiop's success. Without hesitation, 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.440 Jiop reached behind his seat and withdrew from a shelf 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.640 a heavy book and laid it before Salon, who recognized 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:08.240 the author immediately. Jap gestured towards the book, saying, my 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:12.080 fighting gospel is T. E. Lawrence's Seven Pillars of Wisdom. 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:13.640 I am never without it. 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:15.000 That's cool. 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:18.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is. I mean, that's that's high 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:22.440 praise for your book. Yeah. I hope that one day 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.360 My book A Brief History of Vice is the is 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.880 the bible of an insurgent leader destroying French tyranny over 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:30.000 their land, maybe. 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:31.520 In France, be destroying something. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:32.960 Yeah. Yeah. 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:34.640 This has taught me to tell all, have all of 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.520 my troops mixed tobacco and their own urine together and 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.559 then make themselves vomit. I think the key part of 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:42.400 modern insurgent struggle. 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:45.880 One of the things that I kind of can when 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.080 you were saying earlier about how you know you think 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:50.040 of gorilla warfare as like, oh no, you just like 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.000 jump some people in the wood, just beat them up 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.400 in the in the forest. Yeah, yeah, and like because 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:56.440 that's the way that most movies are sort of representing 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.760 guerilla warfare, because you know, that's the sexy part of 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:02.600 a gorilla struggle over yeah right, yeah, And realizing that 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:06.920 there's this like lineage of development of how like, just 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:11.280 like how technology develops, so do tactics and organizational strategies. 0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:14.839 Oh yeah, and yeah, So realizing that, like because you'll 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:22.040 read about the social democrat nihilist from Russia. Stepniak wrote 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.200 a book on guerrilla warfare from his time fighting I 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.400 actually think fighting the Ottoman Empire, but I can't remember, 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:28.160 you know, but. 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.520 That was they helped a lot of people figure that 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:30.960 one out. 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.720 Yeah yeah, and uh, you know, but it's like, but 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.840 then that's that's not the one that people are using. 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:39.320 And then you you know, you fast forward to after 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:41.040 World War Two. I know, a lot of people were 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:45.440 writing like, gee, how do partisans work? You know, and 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:50.000 so it just it really interests me that there's development 0:14:50.600 --> 0:14:53.440 also of just like literally how do you organize this stuff? 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.120 Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean and because there had to be, right, 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:59.800 especially because the conflicts of the twentieth century are so 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:03.640 much much wider in scope and more complex and able 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.240 to be because of the level of development that exists. Right, 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.720 so you need new theories of how to actually wield 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.840 a modern the story of modern insurgent struggle and the 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:15.960 kind of stuff Japp was doing, because Jiapp is not 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:19.240 just a line level guy, right, he is thinking about 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:24.120 grander strategy is how do you wield insurgents as a 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.520 weapon in concert with the other weapons of a modern state? Right, 0:15:29.600 --> 0:15:32.000 That's the question, and that's what Lawrence is kind of 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:37.200 a formative scholar on now at the point in nineteen 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.640 forty six, that Jiapp is showing off his copy of 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.120 Seven Pillars of Wisdom in this meeting. T E. Lawrence 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.000 is still very famous, right. He becomes a celebrity as 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:47.440 a result of what he does in the Middle least. 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:50.120 That's why there's a fucking movie about him, right, And 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.160 he was famous primarily as this guy who wo had 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.440 helped the Allies win crucial victories over the Ottomans by 0:15:55.920 --> 0:16:00.400 welding these Arab bandits into an effective force. This is 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.600 as well, like partially an accurate description of his accomplishments. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:07.520 But Jiapp understood better than Salon what Lawrence had really done, 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.400 and as a result, Lawrence is kind of puzzled when 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.840 he hears that Jiop has this copy of Lawrence's book, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.320 because Celon is like, well, this is just a guy 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:20.360 who like taught some desert Arabs how to ambush trains. Right, 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.560 that has nothing to do with fighting the Japanese in Vietnam. 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.880 Why would you consider this relevant? And I'm going to 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:30.000 continue with another passage from Schneider's book, ah Giop replied, 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.640 is that your assessment of Lawrence Selon nodded a casual 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.200 affirmation of course, then you have missed the whole point 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.160 of Lawrence, said Jiap. He is less about fighting a 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.680 guerrilla war than leading one, and leadership, Giop emphasized, is 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:49.200 applicable in any context, desert or jungle, military or civil. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.200 And so if you're someone who might be inclined to 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:57.720 ignore or dismiss Lawrence as just another like imperialist proto 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.440 cia guy appropriating a local culture, I would encourage you 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:06.280 to consider there's something worth finding in what Giops saw 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.560 in the man, right, Yeah, And it's worth studying anyone 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.919 whose work was a critical part of the strategy that 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.840 led Vietnam to victory over the United States because in 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.120 a lot of ways, that gave us the twenty first century. Right, 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:20.920 you kind of have to study a guy who can 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.040 do that. And I will say one of the through 0:17:24.080 --> 0:17:26.159 lines of the story, we'll be reading some quotes from 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:29.280 separate pillars of wisdom. One of the things that makes 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.440 Lawrence a powerful insurgent leader, which is part of why 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:34.840 I like the story, is that he's an excellent writer. 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:41.320 He's just an actually incredibly talented, beautiful prose and that's 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.960 a big part of why he is an influential military theorist, 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.679 and I kind of like that. 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:49.920 That's cool. I'm want to read Seven Pillars now. 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.240 It's great, Yeah it is. It's actually very very good 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.199 and is now historians have gone back and forth on this, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.199 but like modern historiography will agree, gen't really accurate. As 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:03.439 we'll talk about, there's a couple of areas where Lawrence 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.639 probably lied or at least may have lied, but generally 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.119 accurate to what happened. So Schneider's book makes a pretty 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.200 good case for Lawrence as like the father of modern 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.399 insurgent warfare. My main issue with his book is that 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:19.879 he focuses on like the how and a lot of 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.640 just kind of the military nuts and bolts, and as 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.200 a result, his story leaves out something that the nineteen 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.159 sixty two movie leaves out, which is, why would a 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.919 guy born into like the comfortable upper middle class of 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:37.000 life in the British Empire choose to become, you know, 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:40.160 a leader, not the leader of an Arab revolt against 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:41.000 Ottoman power? 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:41.400 Right? 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.280 How do we get there? And that's the story we're 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.800 going to tell today. Thomas Edward Lawrence was born on 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:49.360 August sixteenth. 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:49.760 Eighteen eighty eight. 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.560 Before this section, sure you know who else was born 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.160 on August sixteenth, eighteen eighty eight in the United Kingdom. 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.840 Probably not our sponsors. They're probably Donald Trump again. Oh god, 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:05.600 there's a good chance. 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:10.920 I missed the gambling ads. I miss them too, No Chumba, 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.840 Maybe not by the time this comes out. Yeah, we'll see, 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.040 no said, will be an ad for gorilla warfare. Yea 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:19.400 gerrilla warfare. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.200 Disappointed about the election results, you know, one way or 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.560 the other, A lot of people are going to be 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:27.159 thinking about guerrilla warfare in the wake of this election 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.440 coming up in a couple of days. So that's part 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:39.600 of why I wrote these episodes. Uh, and we're back. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.919 So Lawrence was born in maybe the most ridiculously named 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:50.520 region of Great Britain Trinidog trimid Dog, Carnovanshire, Wales, which 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:53.200 I know I've pronounced wrong. I don't like, fuck you people, 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:55.720 look at that trimid dog. What does that even mean? 0:19:56.320 --> 0:20:00.719 That sounds like that sounds like medicine for fleas or 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.600 like if your dog's too fat, you give it trima dog. Right, 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:07.080 It's just like, excuse. 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.359 Me, I'm sure you're not body shamed dogs. 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:11.080 Excuse me, I'm. 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:14.280 Not I'm just saying, if you were selling that medicine, 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.520 like if you're selling dog o zimbic, you call it 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:21.119 trima dog dog o zimbi has to be a thing, right, 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:22.399 there's no way that's not coming. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.440 I really hope not. But you're probably Oh no, there's 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:26.720 no way. 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:28.520 There's no way that's not gonna There's no way that 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:31.320 there's no way there aren't people who are already shooting 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.760 ozimbic into their cloned dogs. I love, that's definitely happening. 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:40.720 Drugs just go both directions real quick now, like horse 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:41.800 drugs for humans. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:46.080 Yeah. Me, you came over the other day and we're 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.720 talking about how like rintros on trasa doone and hey, 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.680 so am iras a buddies. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:53.879 No, it made it great when I was I was 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:56.000 in a place that was never mind, I want to 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:57.320 I don't want to tell you anything about how I 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:01.000 acquired some I've always gone through the problem channels to get. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.920 I love the proper channels, Margaret, speaking of the proper channels. 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.200 Lawrence comes from a line of people who did things 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:13.920