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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds.

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Speaker 2: And Ronda Santis, Tim Poole and Ben Shapurou are all

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Speaker 2: defending Elon musk santi Semitism. We have such an excellent

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Speaker 2: show today, So before as Dave Weigel stops by to

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Speaker 2: talk about how wokeism was not a factor in the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three election, then we'll talk to the Guardians

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Speaker 2: Margaret Sullivan about the media's recent failures covering the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty four election. But first we have the host of

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Speaker 2: the Enemy's List, the Lincoln Project's own Rick Wilson.

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Speaker 1: Rick Wilson, thank you, thank you, thank you. I appreciate

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Speaker 1: you for making the time to cover the podcast all

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Speaker 1: the time, but it's because we need you.

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Speaker 3: It's the best half hour of my week.

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Speaker 1: Molly, it's twenty minutes, it just feels like a half

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Speaker 1: an hour. I want you to do a two second

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Speaker 1: rip for me. In a world where the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: was not a complete unmitigated shit show, you guys, and

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Speaker 1: I know you're not even in that party anymore, but

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Speaker 1: you would be able to get your shit together and

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Speaker 1: nominate Nicki Haley and get rid of Donald Trump. Right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what can happen because the Republican Party

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Speaker 1: is a mass, right.

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Speaker 3: The sixty five percent of the Republican Party that are

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Speaker 3: Trump potties with you know, the bomb vest strapped on

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Speaker 3: their chest, ready to meet the seventy two virgins who

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Speaker 3: all look like Ivanka. Those people will never leave him.

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Speaker 3: But if he passed from this earth by whatever modality,

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Speaker 3: the Republican Party is full of really smart operators and

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Speaker 3: strategists and consultants and campaign people. I tell my Democrat

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Speaker 3: friends is to let don't mistake the people who go

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Speaker 3: to the rallies with the people who organize the rallies,

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Speaker 3: and so yes, Nicki Haley would be a formidable candidate

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Speaker 3: in every other universe. Again, I'm not standing Nicki Haley.

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Speaker 3: She's got a lot of significant flaws, but she's not

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Speaker 3: terrible on camera. She's not untalented as a candidate, and

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Speaker 3: that really does matter, That really does have an impact

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Speaker 3: on electability that she can perform. Why is Ron DeSantis

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Speaker 3: a better candidate on paper but an obviously worse candidate

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Speaker 3: in real life because he stands there and looks like

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Speaker 3: a fish having some sort of seizure with his mouth

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Speaker 3: moving up and down. He can't make himself have expressions

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Speaker 3: that are normal human beings can parse. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: facial expressions have this long genetic heritage in the human

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Speaker 3: race of warning people against danger or or signaling approval

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Speaker 3: or desire or hunger or fear. D Santas's case, it's

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Speaker 3: like all of it's in a gumbo any second. It's like,

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at you with lust and yet loathing.

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Speaker 4: It's just madness.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about that for a minute, because because

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Speaker 1: it is, I mean, what happened, I want you to

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Speaker 1: like clearly, Ron DeSantis is not going to be the president,

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Speaker 1: largely because he is terrible retail politician. I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: I was worried about his autocratic, fascistic ideas, but those

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Speaker 1: are not the problem for the GOP base. The problem

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Speaker 1: for the GOP base is that he wears high heels

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Speaker 1: and makes weird faces and screams at kids about how

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Speaker 1: many calories icys have.

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Speaker 3: That does a lot of sugar, and it doesn't that

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Speaker 3: young Lady Raptor should report to a re education camp.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was crazy ass.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday, I was joking around with a friend of mine

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Speaker 3: who does a lot of advertising branding. We're talking about

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Speaker 3: what the worst brand of twenty twenty three. I said,

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Speaker 3: Moms for Liberty Summer camps. Terrible but a terrible Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean that's I think a really good point, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The party itself, the apparatus part of the party, the consultocracy,

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Speaker 3: the lobbyist, the money people. They all want to get

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Speaker 3: past Trump. They desperately want to get past Trump. But

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Speaker 3: they also all recognize that Trump's going to win the primary,

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Speaker 3: and so not going to get out there and do

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Speaker 3: this has always been the problem in this Republican primary field.

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Speaker 3: The three people who actually spoke out against Donald Trump,

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Speaker 3: to their credit, limited, but to their credit were Chris Christy,

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Speaker 3: Asa Hudgerson, and Will Hurd. Well, Will Hurd is gone,

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Speaker 3: Asa Hudgerson is at somewhere like point one percent. I

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Speaker 3: think that includes family members. And Chris Christy is going

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Speaker 3: to come in fifth place in New Hampshire, the state

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Speaker 3: He's invested all his time and money. All of these people,

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Speaker 3: if they had gone at Trump early, if they had

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Speaker 3: done what you know, again, I'm beating my head against

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Speaker 3: the wife said this back in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: You have to never stop attacking Trump. Once you attack Trump,

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Speaker 3: you must never blink. You must never seed an inch

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Speaker 3: of ground. You must never say that Donald Trump was

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Speaker 3: at one time nice to someone. You must never give

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Speaker 3: him a fucking inch. We've got President Biden willing on

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Speaker 3: a stage with China's President g to call the guy

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Speaker 3: a dictator, and not one of these Republicans on that stage,

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Speaker 3: at any of these debates has been willing to say

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump lost the election. None of the ones that

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Speaker 3: have a possibility of winning. Donald Trump lost the election.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump is a losing loser who loses. They're so

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Speaker 3: fearful of anything that would arouse the anger and wrath

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Speaker 3: of the base that they will accept everything, including this

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Speaker 3: week's fascist palooza from Trump and his allies.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, and I think this is a base problem, right,

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Speaker 1: This is a base problem. This is a Republican base

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Speaker 1: that has control of the levers of power. And there's

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Speaker 1: not a grown up in the room, right.

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Speaker 3: There are no grown ups in the room. I wrote

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Speaker 3: about this this week. I actually dug up an editorial

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Speaker 3: I wrote for The Washington post in twenty seventeen, right

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Speaker 3: after he fired Comy Jesus, and I said, if you

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Speaker 3: work for Trump, it's time to quit. And I wrote

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Speaker 3: about it, and a lot of my friends who were

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Speaker 3: in the administration who had gone in saying things like, well,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to be a guard rail. I'm going to

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Speaker 3: make sure we channel him into conservative policies, and all

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Speaker 3: these ideas that somehow Jared and Ivanka will come back

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Speaker 3: and soften the edges. Boy, that this time he's going

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Speaker 3: to govern like a conservative from the Old School Heritage Foundation,

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Speaker 3: limited government, then personal responsibility. Oh, get the fuck out

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Speaker 3: of here.

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Speaker 1: But did you think that the Old School Heritage Foundation

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Speaker 1: would go fascist before he'd like? I mean, they have

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Speaker 1: now a plan for if he gets back into power,

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Speaker 1: which makes fascism look fashionable. I mean, it's a basically

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Speaker 1: a whole plan of how they're going to get in

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Speaker 1: there and fire everyone normal and just have a complete autocracy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Heritage, which was never great but was at

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Speaker 1: least a little more normal, has become just an organ

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Speaker 1: of Trumpism, right, correct?

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Speaker 3: You know, Molly, Look, I actually dug up a copy

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Speaker 3: of nineteen eighty four's Heritage Foundation report to Ronald Reagan

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Speaker 3: called mandate for leadership, and if you read it, it's

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Speaker 3: like peering back into the Middle Ages, because it's things like,

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Speaker 3: we should improve the processes of government operations to reform

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Speaker 3: and make it swifter for American citizens to get their

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Speaker 3: taxes refunds returned and there, and the bureaucrace should be

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Speaker 3: streamlined to improve, you know, using modern technology to improve

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Speaker 3: the bureauc I mean, and it's all this like honestly,

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Speaker 3: today it reads like do gooder stuff right and now now,

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Speaker 3: and you can you can mark the time when Mike

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Speaker 3: need them.

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Speaker 1: These were the most evil people in the eighties are

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Speaker 1: now like the philanthropist space.

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Speaker 3: They're like saints at this point. The thing about it,

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Speaker 3: too was always like their contention whether it was right

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Speaker 3: or wrong, but their contention was, we have to operate

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Speaker 3: under the rule of law, because communists and socialists do

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Speaker 3: not operate under the rule of law. So we're going

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Speaker 3: to operate under the rule of law. It's going to

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Speaker 3: constitution and rule of law are going to define everything

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Speaker 3: we do. Okay, that aspirational thing. And even if it

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Speaker 3: was just aspirational, Okay, today you've got Stephen Chung Trump

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Speaker 3: spokesperson saying that the lives and existences of Trump's abouts

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Speaker 3: will be crushed and destroyed.

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Speaker 1: Right if they don't like the autocracy, don't worry, because

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Speaker 1: they won't have We won't have to hear from them

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Speaker 1: because they'll be in Gimo was basically the net net event.

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Speaker 3: Trump's speeches from Veterans Day since he has in the

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Speaker 3: last week or ten days, Trump has repeatedly gone over

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Speaker 3: and over and over again to overtly tell us, because folks,

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Speaker 3: Republicans always tell you what they're going to do. One

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Speaker 3: hundred percent of the time they tell you what they're

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Speaker 3: going to do. I have an example that I cite

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Speaker 3: sometimes and people don't always like it. But when Rogue

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Speaker 3: was overturned, and anybody was surprised by that, Like the

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Speaker 3: Republicans were telling you for fifty fucking years they were

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Speaker 3: going to stack the court in overturn Row. They said

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Speaker 3: in every goddamn election cycle, over and over again, we're

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Speaker 3: going to stack the court and overturn Roe v.

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Speaker 4: Waite.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you know, so when it does happen, Wait, you're

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Speaker 3: shocked at the leopards are eating your face because you

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Speaker 3: put yourself in a room full of face eating leopards.

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Speaker 3: What the other part of this is when you're calling

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Speaker 3: people vermin, when you're saying you're going to put them

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Speaker 3: in prison because they're your political opponents, Unlike with Trump.

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Speaker 3: You know, the Trump people are very quick about this,

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Speaker 3: and so online it's like, well, yeah, that's because Trump's

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Speaker 3: fucking criming twenty four seven for the last forty years

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Speaker 3: and he got caught. The fundamental question underneath all this,

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Speaker 3: you know, do we say the F word if you

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Speaker 3: don't know that Donald Trump is a fascist by now?

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Speaker 3: Because if it looks like a fascist and talks like

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Speaker 3: a fascist, and walks like a fascist, and promises to

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Speaker 3: govern by a fascist like a fascist by putting its

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Speaker 3: political opponents in jail, to porting ten million people, ignoring

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Speaker 3: the rule of law, centralizing all power with the president,

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Speaker 3: firing all the federal government officials who were not directly

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Speaker 3: controlled by the president. If you don't think that's fascism, folks,

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Speaker 3: wake the fuck up. I know, listen, and I get

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Speaker 3: it that language and words matter. I'm a writer, you're

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Speaker 3: a writer. We believe that those things are true. But

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Speaker 3: a lot of people have hesitated to call him a

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Speaker 3: fascist and to say what he's doing is fascistic. But folks,

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Speaker 3: he's a fascist. I'm shocked, if I may, if I

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Speaker 3: may modify a James Carville quote, it's the fascism stupid, Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: It boggles my mind that anyone can look at the

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Speaker 3: words that the Republican nominee, because he's the Republican nominee.

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Speaker 3: The words the Republican nominee is saying every day on

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Speaker 3: the campaign trail and on truth, social and wherever that

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Speaker 3: else else he pops up those words every single day

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Speaker 3: means something to seventy million Americans. And he as chaotic

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Speaker 3: as Trump is, you know. Tom Nichols writes, the failure

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Speaker 3: mode of calling Trump a fascist is he doesn't have

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Speaker 3: an organized, coherent movement. I think though, I think he does.

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Speaker 3: I think he does. In the modern TikTok social media

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Speaker 3: era and Twitter era, you don't need all the coherent

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Speaker 3: organization you had in the past. You just need momentum

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Speaker 3: and energy and direct and Trump does provide that to

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Speaker 3: the Republican base. Look, we've seen this in poll after poll.

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Speaker 3: I've got some surveys coming out next week. Scared the

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Speaker 3: shit out of me because the Republicans now are basically like, no,

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Speaker 3: the other side cheets, therefore we can kill them.

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Speaker 1: And that is I think a really important way in

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Speaker 1: which Trump has really done something is sort of won.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say one, but he's really you know,

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Speaker 1: is that they've just continually, every time they're accused of anything,

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Speaker 1: they say, no, it's the other side. So you really

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Speaker 1: do have people in this Republican base who believe that

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election was stolen and that really everything

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Speaker 1: Trump does is actually done by Joe Biden.

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Speaker 3: It is the combination of projection.

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Speaker 1: And mainstream media news breakdown because there's no widely agreed

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Speaker 1: upon truth. Everybody isn't sitting down to watch the evening

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Speaker 1: news together.

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Speaker 3: The combination of inversion and projection is what they do

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Speaker 3: with everything.

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Speaker 1: Right, say more about that, Oh.

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Speaker 3: No, Donald Trump isn't a corrupt, weird scumbag. Joe Biden's

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Speaker 3: the corrupt weird scum bag. They flag it over and

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Speaker 3: over again. They will always invert the accusation and project

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Speaker 3: it back every single time. It's the simplest way to

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Speaker 3: predict their behavior, and every revelation about Trump is greeted

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Speaker 3: by a high low. On the high side, they do

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Speaker 3: that inversion and say, oh, well, it's Biden's just as bad,

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Speaker 3: the corrupt Biden crime family, and the low version of

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Speaker 3: it is to the Naga, Bass and the masses. Is

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Speaker 3: this unbelievably exaggerated over the top. You know, it's not

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Speaker 3: just that Biden's corrupt. He called Trump crypt but Biden

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Speaker 3: eats live Baby's in a basement with Hillary Clinton and

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Speaker 3: a pizza restaurant. The crazy is so underneath all this,

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Speaker 3: The idea that Biden is a pedophile, is an international criminal,

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Speaker 3: has this sweeping global crime ring. All of it projects

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Speaker 3: right back. If you invert it the way they describe

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden as this global criminal mastermind, it's Jared.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's it, Jared, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: Jared is certainly making a lot of money from Saudi Arabia.

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Speaker 3: Does Hunter Biden have two billion dollars from the Saudi's

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Speaker 3: from the Bonesaw crew? No, he does not. But the

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Speaker 3: idea is always to turn the accusation around, yell twice

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Speaker 3: as loud about your opponent. And this is ancient rules

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Speaker 3: of politics. And it's also because Trump grew up in

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Speaker 3: the sway of Roy Cone and Roger Stone and this

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Speaker 3: school of politics that was going out of fashion until

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Speaker 3: social media came along, where you could bullshit your people.

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Speaker 1: All the time because there was no truth.

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Speaker 3: Because there was no truth that everything's relative, everything's flexible,

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Speaker 3: everything's mutable. And now I look at a lot of

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Speaker 3: the alarm bells that are going off, and of course

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Speaker 3: they're going to flip it around. Oh no, the Democrats

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Speaker 3: are the fascists. They're the ones who are organizing and

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Speaker 3: to put me in jail and put Americans. And I

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Speaker 3: said this way back in the day before I was

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Speaker 3: an ex Republican, people like Barack Obama is a Kenyan

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Speaker 3: Muslim sleeper agent who will destroy America and bring full communism.

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Speaker 3: And toward the end of it, I said to somebody,

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Speaker 3: you know, if Barack Obama was a Kenyan Muslims communist

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Speaker 3: sleeper agent, he was terrible at his job because because

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Speaker 3: it basically governed as a liberal Republican for the most

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Speaker 3: of his administration and was in retrospect. And no, at

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Speaker 3: the time, folks, yes, I called him every fucking bad name.

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Speaker 1: In the I didn't want to be And you know.

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Speaker 3: Listen, I played the whole fucking game to the hilt. Okay,

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Speaker 3: but you didn't know things could get worse, but there

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Speaker 3: was no way to anticipate at that moment that there

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Speaker 3: are a non zero number of Republicans who look back

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Speaker 3: and go, I would trade it. I would trade that

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Speaker 3: shit in right now. I doubt have another four years

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Speaker 3: of Obama if it meant not having Trump, the idea

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Speaker 3: of Trump and trump Ism. People don't want to say

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Speaker 3: the effort. They don't want to call it fascist. They

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Speaker 3: don't want to call it madness. They don't want to

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Speaker 3: call it dangerous. They don't want to call it illiberal

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Speaker 3: or autocratic or dictatorial. But that's what it is. I

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Speaker 3: ran a series of ads back in the two thousands

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Speaker 3: at a big state wide ballot initiative. The ballot initiation

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Speaker 3: we were running against was like the Protection for Doctors

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Speaker 3: and Families Act or something. It was some trial bar stuff, right,

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Speaker 3: and I called it like the Deadly Doctor Act. That's

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Speaker 3: not what they say on the ballot, but that's what

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Speaker 3: it is.

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Speaker 1: It's so the evil stuff makes me depressed.

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Speaker 3: Trump has told you what he will do ban it

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Speaker 3: in that interview with Tim Miller on the Circus, told

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Speaker 3: you what he will do. They're not just trolling. They're

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Speaker 3: not just playing around. They mean it.

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Speaker 1: Republicans are running on this idea that the left is

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Speaker 1: anti Semitic, and you're going to hear this a lot.

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Speaker 1: The left hates the Jews, because you know, there is

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Speaker 1: a Palestinian congresswoman that is really the whole thing, right,

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Speaker 1: the left hates the Jews.

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Speaker 3: They're really working to hang the DSA around the neck

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Speaker 3: of the Democratic Party, which just saying if I were

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Speaker 3: at King Jefferies, I would just say to the four

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Speaker 3: members of the DSA and in the House representation, I

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Speaker 3: would just say to them very clearly, DSA membership has

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Speaker 3: qualifies you from many committee seats.

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Speaker 1: There's so much pushing back on progressives. And as Joe

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Speaker 1: Scarborough said, and he was totally right, progressives have been

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Speaker 1: and this was yesterday, Progressives have been so incredibly patient

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Speaker 1: and have not hijacked the party in the way that

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Speaker 1: there was anxiety from the center that they would. And

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Speaker 1: they have taken these progressive wins in infrastructure and unions

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Speaker 1: and they have really behaved in a way that has

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Speaker 1: been really I think honorable. And you know, Bernie Sanders

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Speaker 1: got to run the budget. I mean they were rewarded

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Speaker 1: for it, but I just want to point out that

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Speaker 1: there really is anti Semitism on the right that is

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Speaker 1: like overt.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and it rhymes with melan huh.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's mel On husk. You know. I was reading

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Speaker 1: the Steve Bannon thing where he was saying, we got

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Speaker 1: to drive the money lenders out of the temple. Let

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Speaker 1: me tell you who the money lenders are, because I

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Speaker 1: come from a family of them. Like that is not

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Speaker 1: even coded. That is, you know, they want to get

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Speaker 1: rid of the Jews, and I think it's important that

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Speaker 1: we really are out there about this.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 3: I do think that there is a philosophy that Steve

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Speaker 3: Bannon has imparted inside the Republican movement and party that

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Speaker 3: there are no enemies to my right. And that's why

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Speaker 3: Rhonda Santa S's Nazis campaigning are protesting in Florida and

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Speaker 3: he doesn't say anything because he knows some of those

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Speaker 3: people are his voters. And that doesn't make Rhonda Santis

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Speaker 3: an actual Nazis, right, It doesn't help right. It means

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Speaker 3: that he will tolerate actual Nazis. I prefer my Nazis

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Speaker 3: in the old fashioned way, driven before massive US forces

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Speaker 3: into humiliation and defeat. But the anti Semitism on the

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Speaker 3: right is so prevalent and so virulent. Yes, is there

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Speaker 3: a horseshoe? There is? Are there people who believe that

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Speaker 3: Hamas is legitimate?

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Speaker 1: Are there people making tiktoks about how Osama bin Laden

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Speaker 1: had some good ideas? I mean it's crazy, that is

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Speaker 1: completely cresty, but that should be disabout immediately.

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Speaker 3: As my creative director Michelle Kenny said yesterday, I hope

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Speaker 3: those TikTok kids don't find out about mind calm. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just like.

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Speaker 1: Rick Welson, ladies and gentlemen. Hopefully I can convince him

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Speaker 1: to come back.

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Speaker 3: I will be back with bells on and nothing else.

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Speaker 1: Naughty Santa.

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Speaker 2: Dave Weigel is a political reporter for Someophore.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Dave.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here because you are

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Speaker 1: writing such excellent stuff for Semaphore, and you're out and

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Speaker 1: I always think of you as someone who writes excellently

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Speaker 1: but also is everywhere.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: I appreciate that, although I'm just at home now so

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Speaker 5: I'm trying not to feel guilty about it.

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Speaker 1: But you go to a lot of places, true, and

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Speaker 1: so you really do see firsthand. You know, in this

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Speaker 1: era when people don't really a lot of times people

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Speaker 1: don't go to a lot of places, you really go everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And so I want to ask you the piece you

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Speaker 1: wrote this week about woke, give our listeners sort of

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Speaker 1: the TLDR on this because it's so right.

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Speaker 5: Well, I don't think I was the first reporter to

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Speaker 5: say no and observe that this was happening. You like

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Speaker 5: to be first, but castmember back to the beginning of

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Speaker 5: the year. Ron DeSantis in twenty twenty two had achieved

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Speaker 5: a lot of conservative goals and taken on Disney over

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Speaker 5: Florida's parental rights law, which the poke which opponent all

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Speaker 5: I don't say a law. Ronda Santis's achievements and these

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Speaker 5: are re celebrating by the National Conservatives. Of conservatives were

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Speaker 5: against the I'm going to put it so, he's the

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Speaker 5: word woke. That's a childish we're kind of get us

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Speaker 5: the liberal cultural elite from college professors and people who

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Speaker 5: run big corporations to n Cuba and how it handles

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Speaker 5: trans athletes, all this, and he was taking all of

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Speaker 5: this on but also rhetorically his speeches were about wokeness

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Speaker 5: and if you saw him campaign for Republican candidates in

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty two. He had a riff that he carried

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Speaker 5: into his present of campaign where we'll fight the woke

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Speaker 5: in the universities, will fight the woke, in the businesses,

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Speaker 5: will fight the woke, and the legislature, which is referencing

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Speaker 5: Churchill World War Two. This did not sound silly until

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Speaker 5: until Tom Trump said it sounded silly, and that's when

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Speaker 5: things started to change. You're following out to say where

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Speaker 5: you're Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to pause and go back here because

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Speaker 1: I want to be specific about what woke means. So

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Speaker 1: in this case, it was things like bud Light having

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Speaker 1: an LGBTQ spokesman, and I think, you know, it would

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Speaker 1: be like a sort of a company having a greater

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Speaker 1: interest in preserve you know, it could be anything from

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Speaker 1: books to the environment to you know. It was the

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Speaker 1: idea behind it was corporations doing good, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: even if they weren't necessarily doing good. This all started

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Speaker 1: with the trend of corporations doing good.

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Speaker 5: This includes if a company announces that it's going to

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Speaker 5: pursue environmentally sound investments, or it's going to do diverse

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Speaker 5: hiring those are both under attack by DeSantis too, and

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Speaker 5: the overall argument articulated by him more than any other politician.

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Speaker 5: I mean, other writers write about this, but really was Look,

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Speaker 5: we have let post twenty twenty, especially this left wing

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Speaker 5: culture get far out of hand. There are people in

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Speaker 5: our institutions trying to undermine the economy, our children's minds, gender, everything.

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Speaker 5: We must defeat them, and we to destroy them. I

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Speaker 5: would also say those principles are not gone from this primary.

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Speaker 5: They're still part of the of the conversation. Rhetorically. DeSantis

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Speaker 5: after June and Trump kind of made fun of how

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Speaker 5: much people were talking about this. Does not talk about

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Speaker 5: what this as much he did. I mean, the campaign

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Speaker 5: will dispute this a little bit, but if you as

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Speaker 5: his speeches, that riff has gone. He's changed up the

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Speaker 5: way he talks. There's not as much of a competition

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Speaker 5: for this in races this year, local races, school board races.

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Speaker 5: It just this stuff did not move votes like people

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Speaker 5: thought it would. I talked to Mom's for Liberty for

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Speaker 5: the story. Moms are very blunt and honest about this.

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Speaker 5: They believe that the cause of getting progressive ideas about

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Speaker 5: gender and race out of school is a popular one

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Speaker 5: and it goes pretty well, but it was not a

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Speaker 5: driving issue for voters this year. What kind of overwhelmed

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Speaker 5: it was a sense of getting things back to normal.

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Speaker 5: Let's make sure the school's standards are good. Let's make

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Speaker 5: sure people are bagged in school, and our test scores

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Speaker 5: are not following like they did after the pandemic. It

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Speaker 5: turned out a lot of angst that was powering some

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Speaker 5: Republican victories that seem to be about wopness was just

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Speaker 5: about twenty twenty hangover. The other way I mentioned is

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Speaker 5: that winning means you can't keep planning. When Tim Scott

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Speaker 5: was running for president talking about, you know, getting CRT

434
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,879
Speaker 5: out of schools, he was running in Iowa and in

435
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 5: South Carolina in places that had banned cr critical race theory,

436
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 5: you know, the idea that all systems can be broken

437
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 5: down and analyzed based on whether they are oppressing minorities,

438
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 5: that had been banned for two years.

439
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:12,920
Speaker 1: It had also never been taught in the first place.

440
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: I mean, Republicans had managed to ban a lot of

441
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: things that weren't necessarily issues, which does speak to my

442
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: thesis that it is much easier to fight things that

443
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: don't exist.

444
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 5: That's right, but giving them a little bit of offer.

445
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 5: Here are there academics and are there people who are

446
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 5: members of teachers unions who say we're going to teach

447
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 5: kids about race younger than we used to. Sure, The

448
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 5: point is that Republicans in stage they controlled already said

449
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 5: you're not going to do that. We're going to punch that.

450
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 5: You also had, and you talked about it. This backlash

451
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 5: because once those were in place, you've had this litany

452
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 5: of stories where books that no one really has a

453
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 5: problem with but mentioned race are getting carried out as

454
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 5: schools by one parent with a problem saying I don't

455
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 5: like that my kid is seeing this book that has

456
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 5: one sex scene. I don't like that my kids seeing

457
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 5: this book that's too focused on slavery. The story sort

458
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 5: of changed. Also, the thing I've been for a victory.

459
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 5: This is a Supreme Court conservatives side against affirmative action.

460
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 5: Over the summer, a lot of conservative states and activists

461
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 5: use that to continue attacking these corporate institutions, mostly and education,

462
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 5: and they're just they're just winning. So it's harder to

463
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 5: run for president and say, look, the biggest issue is

464
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 5: this wokeness that is creepy over the country because it's

465
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 5: not anymore. And just some of the conservatives I talked

466
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 5: to with the story say yes, that winning change things,

467
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 5: and there is less democratic focus on the things we

468
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 5: considered woke. You need Saraba or Mary saying this like

469
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 5: you need a dialectic where woke and this needs to

470
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 5: be on the march for anti woke this to be

471
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 5: really potent and it wasn't.

472
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 4: I mean just it was kind of being rolled back

473
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 4: in some ways.

474
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 5: There are fewer Democrats talking about and seeing fewer you know,

475
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 5: celebrities post black squares to say their solidarity for some

476
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 5: protests or another. The conversation culture changed a bit, and

477
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 5: it changed as a political focus in these Republican campaigns.

478
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,640
Speaker 5: It changed as something that could move votes in down

479
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 5: balla campaigns. That's what happened. I only the story says

480
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 5: this is over. I don't worry about to move on.

481
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 4: There's new issues. It just time right down on this.

482
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 5: And I think if you start to Clock differently, say

483
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,479
Speaker 5: how much your Democrats you are talking about police reform

484
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 5: and criminal just reform. Why met Clock wrote out too

485
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 5: that was in vogue for years. It is now something

486
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: Democrats are worried about like things change, but in a

487
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,760
Speaker 5: campaign it can take a while for people to adjust

488
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,680
Speaker 5: and say, oh, the topics we were focusing all of

489
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 5: our attention on are not really relevant anymore to people.

490
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: Right. I think that's a really good point. Part of

491
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: it is that they got over their skis right.

492
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 5: Some of that I said, I was mentioning with some

493
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 5: of these restrictions in schools where people said, Okay, I'm

494
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 5: tired of hearing a felloment, but like what is in

495
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 5: the school library?

496
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 4: Who cares?

497
00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 5: I would like like my kid to get an education.

498
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 5: I'm not either fit in the school board that's obsessed

499
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 5: with what the books are or what the gender policy is.

500
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 5: And this has been interesting because polling on I'll explay

501
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 5: PHWO notification. So some schools handled differently a kid showing

502
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 5: up and saying, I identify as a different gender or

503
00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 5: a different name than.

504
00:25:58,080 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 4: I do at home, Please don't tell my parents.

505
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 5: Some schools especially considered as school board ara districts. In

506
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 5: school districts, I should say in concerted in Red States

507
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 5: laws of in paths to say all right if a

508
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 5: kid says that the parent needs be informed. In some

509
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 5: places say no, that's the kid's right not to be informed,

510
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 5: they could be abused at home, and there were fights

511
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 5: about this all over the country. New Jersey didn't have

512
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 5: law of school board racist, but it had legislative races.

513
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 5: Republicans really ford a lot into this, and they had

514
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 5: polling that said most people disagree. They would they do

515
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 5: think if a kid shows up to school with a

516
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 5: different identity, the parts should know, But that didn't translate

517
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 5: them voting for Republicans. And this is this is like

518
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 5: the complication of politics. There could be twenty issues and

519
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 5: if one issue really burns people up, but it's not

520
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 5: the priority for ninety five percent of the electorate, you

521
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 5: can't get much further with it. And that's sort of

522
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 5: what we learned from these elections. It was kind of

523
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 5: bubble bubbling op all year, how is this going to go?

524
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 5: And then we had elections and we know how let's go.

525
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 5: We have not the election yet, but we have a

526
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 5: slow decline of Ron DeSantis. That's another test where this

527
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 5: is going.

528
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 4: Donald Trump is.

529
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 5: Doing quite well embracing so some of these ideas. He

530
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 5: was the progenitor of some of this, I mean he

531
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 5: was he was attacking critical or his theory at the

532
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 5: end of his presidency on Chris Ruffo's guidies, because Christopher

533
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 5: went on Fox, he started talking about it, and Trump acted.

534
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 5: So it was not an issue to de Santis could

535
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 5: diverse distinguish himself from Trump on that much. It's just

536
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 5: that it did clearly reliction. Voters didn't care about it

537
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 5: the way they cared about every of the other thing

538
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 5: they associate with Trump.

539
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: So let me ask you about that. So you're in

540
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: it with this Republican primary contest and you're seeing this,

541
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: and you're you're on the ground and you've been covering

542
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: all of this. Does it seem like there's a section

543
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 1: of Republican voters that like the people who like Nikki Haley,

544
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 1: which again it's a very fragmented, you know, never Trump

545
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: or non trumpy Republican party that probably will still go

546
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: to Trump that crew. Are they drawn to Nicki Haley?

547
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: And again, this is you're going to have to sort

548
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: of take what you know and go with it. But

549
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: do you think that they're drawn to Nicki Haley because

550
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: she's not crazy and because she harkens back to a

551
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: sort of more normal, less insane Republican party, or do

552
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: you think that it's some other kind of calculus.

553
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 4: There's a few things.

554
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 5: So she has run a normal campaign that a Republican

555
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 5: could have run in twenty twelve or twenty sixteen.

556
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 3: She got it early on.

557
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 5: I think one thing that's underrated is by getting in

558
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 5: very early and by taking media questions before the race

559
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 5: started about Trump and basically screwing up curly. I mean,

560
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 5: she if you go back to read her the political

561
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 5: profile Tim Alberder wrote about her, she's all over the

562
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 5: place on what she thinks about Trump, and twenty one

563
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 5: she's all over.

564
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 4: The place on whether she'll write a Trump does.

565
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 5: But you do those things early, and there is a

566
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 5: half life and people stop caring after a while. I mean,

567
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 5: this is Melissa Warren doesn't win. But her Native American

568
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 5: DNA test thing is a great example of this, Like

569
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 5: do you like drap the poison? You process it, and

570
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 5: then by the time that people are voting, they moved

571
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 5: on from it. First of all, that happened to her,

572
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 5: so she made some mistakes. She made her blunders and

573
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 5: calculations early, and she's also been very cautious in how

574
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 5: she takes on the media, takes on issues. Shee'e been

575
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 5: a little bit looser lately if you saw this with

576
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 5: her opposition to anonymity on social media. But she's just

577
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: run this campaign that is is very conservative. It is

578
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 5: we're going to cut off ties with China. She's four

579
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 5: and I just mentioned some of the Wokens stuff. She's four,

580
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 5: restricting talking about gender and sex and schools. You can

581
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 5: look at what she's talked about. She's not in the

582
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 5: detailed platform, but she's run as a normal Republican and

583
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 5: her affect is not as culture war focused as desantisis.

584
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 5: So what you've seen from like the donor perspective, which

585
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 5: really mattered this week. Tim Scott gets out donors are

586
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 5: looking at this field, big donors, people who you know,

587
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: can put a million dollars in keep her pack them more.

588
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 5: And what they liked about Scott and what they like

589
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 5: about Haley says somewhat different politicians is it's just the effect.

590
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: It's just the effect.

591
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 5: They do not are not as harsh when they talk

592
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:47,479
Speaker 5: about cultural issues.

593
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 4: They don't seem crule about it.

594
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 5: They're not totally seen as obsessed with banning abortion. Haley's not.

595
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 5: Haley's just dodged as completely. Another example here where She's

596
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 5: took your decision early on to say I'm going to

597
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 5: dodge this question. My position is that I'm dodging the

598
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 5: question if you keep asking me about fifteen week bands.

599
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 5: I'm going to dodge it until you stop asking me,

600
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 5: which is what happened. Whereas Dasantis made a different bet.

601
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 5: I'm the true conservative who had a big win in Florida,

602
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 5: so I can get back. I can create that around

603
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 5: the country. Donors are documents and also donors not geniuses.

604
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 5: We've learned this cycle, as we learned every cycle. They

605
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 5: read the same polls as everybody else, They see the

606
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 5: same TV show as everybody else. We saw this with

607
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 5: Thomas Petrophy, this wealthy donor who just for the whole year.

608
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 5: If its Benjie blaying out going to run for a

609
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 5: reason that made no sense. They look at what they

610
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 5: see from Haley and how she talks about these issues.

611
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 5: They look at what they see from Dysantis, and they

612
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 5: look at the polling Haley because the way she's pitched herself.

613
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,120
Speaker 5: I think also just our personal characteristics. The people who

614
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 5: say it'd be interesting to have a young woman as

615
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 5: president instead of the old band just polls better than DeSantis,

616
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 5: and that has helped her a lot. And again, if DeSantis'

617
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 5: cultural focus was really popular and driving up polls and

618
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 5: it was helping with Republicans, they might think this differently.

619
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: It just didn't.

620
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 5: And also a lot of these wealthy donors don't don't

621
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 5: care about that, like, that's not why they're there are

622
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 5: some there are some wealthy dontors who give the certainizations

623
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 5: who care about social issues. Most of them do not.

624
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 5: Most of them are more interested in their bottom line

625
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 5: tax breaks, yeah, than they are in why are you

626
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 5: going to prevent the color purpol or whatever from being

627
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 5: for me?

628
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 4: He taught the school.

629
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really good point.

630
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: I mean, there are certainly crazy religious salads who give money,

631
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: but many of them give that money to the Supreme Court, right,

632
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: I mean, whereas a lot of these people just want

633
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: tax breaks.

634
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 4: Yes, they'll say as much.

635
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 5: What they really want is a sort of Trump fiscal

636
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 5: policy without the unpopularity and awkwardness of Trump. They don't

637
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: like his tariffs, and when it gets down to some

638
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 5: of the specifics, when she talks about cutting off ties

639
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 5: with China, all that, but the sense how you get it,

640
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 5: they don't take that as seriously than Trump saying he'll

641
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 5: needy immediately institute tariffs mean.

642
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Well, because Trump did. Didn't Trump immediately do tariffs like

643
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: one of the few things he actually did do was

644
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: in the Larry Cudlow School of Economics, was triffs he did.

645
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 5: And this I'm trying not to sound too cynical, it's

646
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 5: a little cynical. Hailey does not have the same reputation

647
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 5: for I will make a promise on the campaign trail

648
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 5: to voters and then rigidly enforce it even if it's unpopular.

649
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 5: That's just not how she operates. She is a bring

650
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 5: your business to my state, We're going to make allowances

651
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 5: for you, or going to avoid this fight. We're going

652
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 5: to try to I'm going to try to steal a

653
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 5: popular cibe An issue. That's there's a very lower level

654
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 5: fight this week.

655
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 4: They kid didn't get some of attention. I did see

656
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 4: the Times rate for some of this. But DeSantis and the.

657
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 5: Desanta superPAC have attacked Hailey for just some stuff that

658
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 5: she has said that was credulous about the twenty twenty

659
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 5: racial reckoning right, so her reaction to the George Floyd murder.

660
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 5: DeSantis criticized that just the way she associated herself with it,

661
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 5: and like, what would you have to do with this?

662
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 4: It's never back.

663
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 5: Sorry, the DeSantis wire room, the campaign, this is a

664
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 5: Twitter so to himself is attacking her for when Bubba Wallace,

665
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 5: he a NASCAR driver, said there was a news near

666
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 5: his car his garage, she immediately she immediately criticized it.

667
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 5: And this is another This is a sense of how

668
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 5: online the des antic paint that I had literally forgotten

669
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 5: about that, but their attitude was this woman can't be

670
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 5: trusted because she takes like the popular liberal media position for.

671
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: Him to time.

672
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 5: And if you're a big donor, you don't care, and

673
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: that's great, and you want them to like win in

674
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 5: come taxes, you don't care.

675
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: You want them not to be insane.

676
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: Right.

677
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: Part of it is Desanti's world took the sort of

678
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: least smart parts of trump Ism. I mean, if you're

679
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: a big donor, game this out for me, and you've

680
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: watched Desanti's fight with Disney, you don't want that. I mean,

681
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: I don't want that. And I'm not even a Republican.

682
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: I mean, isn't that sort of poison?

683
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: I don't know.

684
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 5: I'm just trying to see it from the way that

685
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 5: these Republican operators see it, and like, what is their

686
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 5: optimal situation here? It's really much more like a Republican

687
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 5: governor who just stopped picking fights all the time. It

688
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 5: is like a Mike de Wine, you know, io, who

689
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 5: is keeping their taxes low and deregulating but not trying

690
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 5: to if a culture war comes, it's up through the legislature.

691
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 4: It's not there him.

692
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 5: And yeah, so for Desanti, sufforders, the ones who were

693
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 5: in the rank and file conservative talker's advocates, they hate

694
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 5: this donor class. I mean they really, they really resent

695
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 5: and I haven't seen it turnby turned around really, But

696
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 5: the fact that a lot of wealthy people who can

697
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 5: give to Republican campaigns are now saying they're into her,

698
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 5: I expect them to start using that as a as

699
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 5: a weapon against her. Why would you reject Ron DeSantis

700
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 5: who has delivered even when the big businesses like Disney

701
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,960
Speaker 5: were attacking him over somebody who seems like this big

702
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 5: business corporate America is fine with her. Fair question, But

703
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 5: this is this is where we get to. Has the

704
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 5: base moved on, doesn't care, doesn't care about that, and

705
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 5: that kind of thing, and every conversation, it feels like

706
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 5: you need to have a disclaimer that we're talking about

707
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 5: candidates who are losing down Trump by thirty points in

708
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 5: Iowa twenty.

709
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 4: Five a couple points.

710
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 5: So all of this is happening, is what do we

711
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 5: do about are the candidate who might get a chance

712
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 5: to go one a while with Trump for a couple primaries.

713
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: This is the conversation they're having.

714
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 5: But to the extentsantisis has lost his claim on the

715
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 5: Trump alternative lane, which was their argument all year that

716
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 5: it's a two man race.

717
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 4: It's going to be two man race.

718
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 5: And I was talking to DeSantis supporters in Iowa today

719
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 5: the idea that Nikki Haley could come second Iowa. They're saying,

720
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 5: this is ridiculous, that's a distraction, She has no chance,

721
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 5: no organization. This is like offensive that you guys are

722
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 5: the people think there are willing to split the vote

723
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 5: when Ronda Santis should be the Trump challenger. But to

724
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 5: the extent they are losing their grip on that role

725
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 5: in the primary. It's all the stuff I've talked about,

726
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 5: just that Haley has picked different fights that have not

727
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 5: worn as poorly with voters and certainly are more interesting

728
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 5: to the big donors or at the moment and has

729
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 5: head into the thanksgiving and the advice at the moment,

730
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 5: helping her get on air on pay TV eds more

731
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 5: than him, more than Rhym the Santas Dave.

732
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

733
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 5: Oh yes, thank you very much. This is a big,

734
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 5: complicated one, so happy we could talk about it.

735
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 2: Margaret Sullivan is a columnist for the Guardian and author

736
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,879
Speaker 2: of Newsroom Confidential, which is coming to paperback next week.

737
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, my friend, my mentor, Margaret Sullivan.

738
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,959
Speaker 6: Thank you, Molly. I love being on your pod.

739
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited because your paperback comes out in two weeks, guest.

740
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 6: It's the paperback of my memoir Newsroom Contest Bill, which

741
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 6: was published last year, and now it's going to be

742
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 6: out in paperback. So it could be a gift for

743
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 6: like a young journalist or a young woman or a

744
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 6: young man or someone old.

745
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: Excellent. So we're in this weird primary season where it

746
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: looks like the incumbent, of course, will run again that's

747
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: Joe Biden, and then Donald Trump will yet again win

748
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: a Republican primary contest. And so we have come back

749
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 1: to this idea of how do normal political journalists, who

750
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,839
Speaker 1: are used to trying to jack nuance and to sort

751
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: of hide their own bias, right, because everybody has a bias,

752
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: how do they cover something that is so clearly out

753
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 1: of the mainstream.

754
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 6: So I'm a little tiny bit encouraged right now because

755
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 6: I see and I'm rarely encouraged about the way covers politics.

756
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 6: But Trump's plans should he be elected are so extreme

757
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 6: that news organizations are adjusting a little bit. And you know,

758
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 6: you still see bad things, like when he went off

759
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 6: on that tear about all the things that he would

760
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 6: It was his Veteran's Day speech, and the news organizations

761
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 6: that covered it well talked about how he used the

762
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 6: word vermin, you know, which is fraught with these this

763
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 6: is the language of Hitler and others. I have to

764
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 6: dunk on the New York Times a little bit here,

765
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 6: because the headline they wrote was something like Trump takes

766
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 6: a very different and his veterans thinkage, whereas others were

767
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 6: saying he was echoing Hitler and Mussolini. But I do think,

768
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 6: you know, I'm seeing some positive things there. And also

769
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 6: I have to say that both the Times and the

770
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 6: Washington Post and there are probably others have done really

771
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 6: important reporting in recent weeks about how what Trump's allies

772
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 6: and he are planning should he be re elected, and

773
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 6: it should scare the heck out of everybody. We will

774
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 6: not have a democracy. I mean, it's like the guardrails

775
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 6: are all going to come down. Anything that restrained him

776
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 6: in his first term, as wacky and bad as that was,

777
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 6: those things are going to be dismantled, and really we're

778
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 6: not going to have the country that we have had.

779
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 6: And I just think it's so important for the press,

780
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 6: for journalists to get this across to people, because I

781
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 6: think that a lot of regular people who don't follow

782
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 6: the news that carefully are like, well, Trump, you know,

783
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 6: it's the same old stuppoh that his style is a

784
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 6: little off putting, but you know he's a businessman or something.

785
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 6: That is what's going on here, and then they get

786
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,399
Speaker 6: so much attention. We already know Joe Biden is old.

787
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 6: Yes he's really too old. But he's been a good president.

788
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 6: Some would say a great president, some would.

789
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 1: Say the best president of their lifetime. Immanat has passed

790
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: these massive legislations. I mean again, but yes, but we're

791
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: not talking about him. We're talking about Trump.

792
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 6: Right, But I mean the fact that these news organizations

793
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 6: and politics journalists can you know, beat us over the

794
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 6: head with the fact that Joe Biden is eighty years old,

795
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 6: Like his birthday is still the same as it was

796
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 6: last week and the week before. We already know that

797
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 6: he's old. What people don't really know is what Trump

798
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 6: would do if re elected. And that's that needs to

799
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 6: be pound at home, and that is you know, as

800
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 6: you said, Molly, it's outside the bounds of how journalists

801
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 6: feel comfortable because they absolutely do not want to be

802
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 6: called liberal. They don't want to be called bias, they

803
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 6: don't want to be called in the tank for Joe Biden,

804
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,880
Speaker 6: and so they're very hesitant to say the stuff in

805
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 6: a really clear way, but they must.

806
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,439
Speaker 1: There's an anxiety, and there's also I feel like there's

807
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: a real predisposition to wanting to seem you know, straight

808
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 1: down the middle. Oh absolutely, And I think that is

809
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: why we end up with those headlines. There was another

810
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: headline from the New York Times that also had a

811
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: similar way of sort of casually mentioning a sort of

812
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: like norm breaking action as a sort of Pacadillo. The

813
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: writers of the pieces don't write the headlines. That's right.

814
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 6: I think that's a big part of it. I think

815
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 6: that if you actually read those pieces, they very carefully,

816
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 6: you tell you what has happened, but the headlines, and

817
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 6: you're right. In most places, in certainly these big places,

818
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 6: there's a there are editors who write, who write the headlines.

819
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 6: And also, you know, headlines have to be short, and

820
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 6: headlines have to be you know, able to in some

821
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 6: cases fit into a print column or not. But yeah,

822
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 6: the headlines are extremely important because we know that most

823
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,360
Speaker 6: people don't get beyond the headlines. So you can have

824
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:20,479
Speaker 6: a most nuanced, groundbreaking story, it's not going to matter

825
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 6: if the headline makes it all seem completely normal, as

826
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 6: if this was an election in nineteen eighty four.

827
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: And I mean, I think that's a really important point.

828
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: Now we don't know, or maybe you know, but I

829
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 1: don't know how headlines are decided at the New York

830
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: Times right now. Probably the gas is it should be

831
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,239
Speaker 1: at least a few editors are also seeing those headlines.

832
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 6: There are editors whose job it is basically to write

833
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 6: the sty to read the story, copy edit it, and

834
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 6: write a headline on it, and then if it's an

835
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 6: important story, it will absolutely be seen by senior editors.

836
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 6: And you know what I would like to see happen

837
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 6: is for really top editors and JOCN and others, the

838
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 6: head of the AP, Julie Pace to really get their

839
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 6: staffs together, including editors who write headlines and tweets and

840
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 6: display type, and say to them we need to get

841
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 6: across this very important situation in clear terms and brainstorm

842
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 6: with their staffs about how to do that. But I

843
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 6: don't think that happens because we're all running scared about

844
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 6: being called a liberal.

845
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: It is interesting, so part of this is that working

846
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:31,839
Speaker 1: the rafts works, right.

847
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, Who are we afraid of? And I would

848
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 6: like to say that I am not afraid of this,

849
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 6: but who are we as journalists afraid of. We're afraid

850
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 6: of people on the right describing us as partisan, and

851
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 6: for good reason, we don't like that, because we want

852
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,759
Speaker 6: to be seen as fair and nonpartisan. That's fine and understandable,

853
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 6: but when you know you're saying working the refs, when

854
00:42:56,239 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 6: the refs on the right come after us and say see,

855
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 6: you're a hack, you move yourself over to the right.

856
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 6: A little bit because you're like, well, maybe they've got

857
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 6: a point, you know, or I just don't want that

858
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 6: coming at me, so you kind of but you keep

859
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 6: moving over to the right. And the problem is that

860
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 6: you can never ever satisfy them because it's not really

861
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 6: about the content. It's about this whole technique of working

862
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 6: the ref yes.

863
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,879
Speaker 1: And it's so interesting because it's like, when we look

864
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: back at twenty sixteen, Donald Trump got two billion dollars

865
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 1: of free media, literally two billion dollars if you look

866
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 1: at I mean this was calculated by like the New

867
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: York Times or some one of these mainstream organizations that

868
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: he had he had gotten so much free media, and

869
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,240
Speaker 1: it was true. I mean, you could see him everywhere.

870
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: And part of it was because he was a totally

871
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: new type of character in the politics sphere.

872
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 6: He was a novelty and by his own description, he's

873
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 6: a ratings machine. And you know, that's a really insane

874
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 6: thing to say about yourself, but it's true that there

875
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 6: is something bizarrely compelling about him, and it's hard to

876
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 6: tear your eyes away that I'm not describing that as

877
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 6: something good, but he's interesting, Biden to watch him give

878
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 6: a speech or do a press conference. It's not that interesting,

879
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 6: you know, and Trump is interesting, and that, unfortunately is

880
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 6: a value of ours, you know.

881
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean that's sort of how we got here,

882
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: is because people found him interesting and they covered him

883
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: a lot. My guess is that people are going to

884
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: wake up in January and be like, holy shit, Donald

885
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: Trump is the Republican nominee. And I think that that

886
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: is going to beget till November, until the election, and

887
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: hopefully not further than that of Trump coverage where journalists

888
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: are going to once again have to grapple with us, right. Yeah.

889
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 6: The thing that worries me is that people are not

890
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 6: all that tuned into the news. Like I was just

891
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 6: reading someplace today about this just this one news consumer.

892
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 6: I mean, I can't call her a news consumer, but

893
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 6: this one person I guess who was saying something about

894
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 6: she really likes Kennedy, Yes, because he's been so good

895
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 6: on vaccine. Well, she's associating him with vaccines, but the

896
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 6: fact is that he's anti vaccine, right no, no.

897
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 3: Oh.

898
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 6: And the other one was you know the people who

899
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 6: think that because abortion rights were so limited and so

900
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 6: removed and rescinded during Joe Biden's presidency that it must

901
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 6: be his fault. I mean, people don't really read or

902
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 6: pay attention, and so I don't really know. I don't

903
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 6: think that tweaking the head you know, this is what

904
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 6: bothers me. We talk about all this stuff. Oh, this

905
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 6: headline in the New York Times. I really don't think

906
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 6: that that kind of thing is going to influence people

907
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 6: that much. I mean, it would be around the margins

908
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 6: at best. But it doesn't mean they shouldn't do it right.

909
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 6: They absolutely should.

910
00:45:57,560 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: And if it's the.

911
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 6: Times, they're so influential that, you know, other media organizations

912
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 6: take their cues from the Times in some ways, so

913
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 6: it's important in that way too. But you know, I

914
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 6: always go on about, and I think righteously so, about

915
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 6: the decline of local journalism. And one of the things

916
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 6: that's happened is we don't have this common basis of reality.

917
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 6: And yes, anymore, local journalism has has declined so much.

918
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 6: You know, there was a time, and it wasn't that

919
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 6: long ago that you know, everybody on the street got

920
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 6: the local paper. So you might read about what you

921
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 6: think about certain things, but at least you were dealing

922
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 6: with a common basis of reality, and that has really dwindled,

923
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 6: and that's a tragedy.

924
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you had everybody watch the same newscast, right,

925
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,160
Speaker 1: everybody read the same newspaper, right.

926
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 6: And I mean there's obviously a downside to that too,

927
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,800
Speaker 6: which is we didn't have this like diversity of voices,

928
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 6: and we didn't have people of color or women to

929
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 6: the extent we do now saying things and being prominent,

930
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,279
Speaker 6: and so that is something that's improved. But the downside

931
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 6: is that people have really tuned out from the news,

932
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 6: or they get their news in their own social media

933
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 6: echo chambers or at cock or whatever it may be.

934
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because one of the things that

935
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: in this last election cycle that we spent a lot

936
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: of time talking about was like, is there a liberal

937
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: echo chamber right where liberals are sparing with our time?

938
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 5: Right?

939
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: Certainly there is. But then there was this hilarious irony

940
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 1: where it turned out all these conservatives had gone together

941
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: and made themselves believe that some of these things that

942
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 1: their candidates ran on were really important to voters, when

943
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: they were in fact absolutely not important voters. And I'm

944
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: thinking about things like book bands or trans athletes.

945
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 6: I mean, oh, right exactly now. A lot of that

946
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 6: stuff has backfired. We know that what we certainly know

947
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 6: that the wild Boars thing has backfired. You know, I

948
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 6: read this wonderful story about this. I can't remember exactly

949
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 6: where it was, but these kids out, you know, somewhere

950
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 6: in the Heartland, We're trying to put on Oklahoma, of

951
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 6: all things, and the school board decided that because a

952
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,439
Speaker 6: trans kid had been cast in the play and other

953
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 6: and like girls were playing boys roles, et cetera, they

954
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 6: canceled the whole thing. And this very conservative community came

955
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 6: forward and said that, you know, they got it put

956
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 6: back together. And so I think that, you know, Americans

957
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 6: at some level, a lot of us are kind of

958
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 6: ultimately sort of sensible, and so I'm hoping that that

959
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 6: will prevail if the information gets out there in a

960
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:35,359
Speaker 6: good way.

961
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the thing that the right has really seeded,

962
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,439
Speaker 1: which is so stupid of them, is freedom. Right. All

963
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: of these restrictions are taking away your freedoms, right, the

964
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: freedom to choose, the freedom to tell your kid what

965
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: book to read. These are freedoms. And I just think

966
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: that that is a really strange hill to die on

967
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: for the Republican Party.

968
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 6: It does give Democrats a real opportunity if they were

969
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 6: capable of taking it and tell them story, you know

970
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 6: that your rights have actually been removed and they're going

971
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 6: to be removed more. That's a powerful narrative. But you know,

972
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 6: the weird thing, of course, is that Republicans are great

973
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 6: at pounding home their message and they have Fox News

974
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 6: and other places that help them with that, and the

975
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 6: Democrats have not been good at it, but they need

976
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 6: to get better quick.

977
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me that these Republicans are so

978
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 1: profoundly good at messaging. I'm sure you saw this piece

979
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 1: yesterday was a piece that Fox News is able to

980
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: create and I can't now remember where I read it.

981
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 1: Of course, that Fox News is able to create and

982
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: drive the narrative about things that don't necessarily exist. And

983
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: I think about it, for example, when people when mainstream

984
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: centrists news organizations have me on their shows and ask

985
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,280
Speaker 1: me about the mess at the southern border, and that's

986
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,080
Speaker 1: something where that has Republicans have absolutely shaped that narrative.

987
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: Like fundamentally we are we're a country that desperately needs

988
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: immigrants where we're going to become Japan, right, we don't

989
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: have enough people to keep this going. You know, we

990
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: don't have enough people to pay into Social Security. We

991
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: are a country that has no path to citizenship right now.

992
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 1: I mean like immigration is an emergency. You know, different

993
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 1: states are changing their laws so that they can have

994
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,800
Speaker 1: these migrant children come in and work in their factories

995
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 1: without getting in trouble. And yet the narrative is the

996
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: mess on the southern border.

997
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,920
Speaker 6: Right Well, remember how Fox went on and on endlessly

998
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 6: about the supposed caravan to scare everyone into thinking that

999
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 6: there are all these undocumented criminals and perhaps rapists and

1000
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 6: everything else that we're going to jump over fences. And

1001
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 6: it's not that there isn't a mess at the southern border.

1002
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 6: It's just that it's not the mess that's being described

1003
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:04,320
Speaker 6: right exactly.

1004
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: And I think that right now Fox uses a little

1005
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: bit quiet, which is a little bit scary in my mind.

1006
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: And some of that is probably like post Tucker Carlson,

1007
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: but some of that as they're getting ready for an

1008
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: election cycle, well.

1009
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 6: Right, And I mean I do think they've been stung

1010
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:23,279
Speaker 6: pretty badly by those lawsuits, the dominion lawsuits and the

1011
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 6: Smartmatic lawsuit and one down and one still to come,

1012
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,279
Speaker 6: and the one still to come is the bigger one,

1013
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 6: so they may be a little more careful. And of

1014
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 6: course Tucker is gone from Fox, so you know things

1015
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 6: have changed a little bit. But I think fundamentally they

1016
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 6: still know what their job is and they will do it.

1017
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: So true, Margaret Sullivan, I appreciate you so much. We

1018
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: have to problem down that incredible line. They know what

1019
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: their job is and they will do it. There you go, Okay,

1020
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: I'm glad I could give you a good line. No,

1021
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: no moment, Rick Wells.

1022
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 3: My moment of fucker this week is entitled what the

1023
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 3: fuck is wrong with you? Elon? How the Groypers and

1024
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 3: Nick Flints and the Altright dipshits. Red Pilled Elon Musk

1025
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 3: is a story that someday must be told. I wrote

1026
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,359
Speaker 3: a piece about it yesterday on subject asking like who

1027
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 3: did this? I outlined what I figured out the process

1028
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 3: of it was, but I want to know, like, who's

1029
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 3: the actual red pill asshole that got to this guy?

1030
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 3: Because this thing is infecting more and more of these

1031
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: billionaire class people. And when you look at Peter Tiel

1032
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 3: and Elon Musk and Marc Andrees and all these other

1033
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: people who have enormous power and influence in money, and

1034
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 3: they are slipping into this warm bath of fascism and

1035
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 3: anti Semitism without blinking an eye. Now look, I know

1036
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 3: Elon's from South Africa and you can take the apartheid

1037
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 3: out of them.

1038
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: And his grandfather was a famous anti Semite who moved

1039
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: to South Africa for the promise of greater opportunities to

1040
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: be anti Semitic, great anti semitism, right, But yes, I

1041
00:52:58,880 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: agree he's gotten more.

1042
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 3: Really, my moment of fucker here is Linda Yakarino. Linda quit,

1043
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 3: Get the fuck out of there. If you value your

1044
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 3: immortal soul, or your dignity, or your reputation, or have

1045
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 3: any shred of self respect, just leap, just walk out

1046
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 3: the door. You're you got your money already up front, Lee,

1047
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 3: walk out, now, save yourself. She does not the fact

1048
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 3: that a the world's richest man on the world's most

1049
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 3: horrifying social media platform, continues to spew out horrifying anti

1050
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 3: semitism and no one in his fan base seems to

1051
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 3: mind should scare the shit out of people.

1052
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 1: It's my moment of fucker, Rick Wilson, Ladies and gentlemen,

1053
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: my moment of fuckery continues to be Linda Yacarino and

1054
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:43,320
Speaker 1: this fucking complete shit show that is X. He's done it.

1055
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: He may have driven us all off for good.

1056
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 3: I posted more yesterday for the very first time on

1057
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,440
Speaker 3: Threads than I posted in a day on X Right.

1058
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: Find the addicts. We've gone over to the more benevolent billionaire.

1059
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 3: We've got over to the slightly weirder but less obviously

1060
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 3: or billionaire.

1061
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: Find us there on Threads.

1062
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 3: Thank you, Rick Wilson, my pleasure. As always. We'll see

1063
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: you again next week here on.

1064
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,840
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1065
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday and Friday to hear the best minds

1066
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1067
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1068
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,800
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.