1 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow and we're Talking Transports. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host, 3 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 1: Lee Klascow, senior freight, transportation and logistics analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence, 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: and strategists around the globe. Before diving in a little 6 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: public service announcement, your support is instrumental to keep bringing 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: great guests on to the podcast like the one we 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: have today, So. 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 2: Your support is really needed. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: So please if you enjoy the podcast, share it, like it, 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: and leave a comment. Also, if you have any ideas 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: for future episodes or just want to talk transports, please 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: hit me up on the Bloomberg terminal or on LinkedIn 14 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: or on Twitter at logistics Lee. Now onto our episode. 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: We're delighted to have Steve Ferrara, Ocean Audits Founder and CEO, 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: as our guests on the podcast today. Steve is the 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: CEO and founder of Ocean Audit, a global leader in 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: ocean freight auditing and global logistics recovery services. With over 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: forty two years of experience in the logistics and shipping industry, 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: Steve is recognized as a thought leader and innovator in 21 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: supply chain costs recovery. He has helped Fortune five hundred 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: companies uncover millions in hitted over charges through proprietary audit techniques. 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:25,199 Speaker 1: He's a frequent media commentator and conference speaker, offering deep 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: insights into maritime trade, container shipping, and global logistics trends. 25 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: Welcome to the podcast, Steve. Thanks so much for joining us, Ollie. 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: It's such an honor to see you again. You know, 27 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 3: I've been known here for a good number of years 28 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 3: now and I'm so thankful and pleased to be here today. 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 3: Thanks for the great time today. 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's great to have you on. 31 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: You know, we've bumped into each other over the years 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: at various conferences. You know, I wanted to have you 33 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: on today because there is so much going on in 34 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: the shipping industry. So just before we start talking about that, 35 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: is there anything you want to add about audit that 36 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: I might have left out in the introduction. 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 3: Only that we're specializing and helping the bulletproof glass industry. 38 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 3: I'm joking. I say that tongue in cheek. I love 39 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 3: what I do and it's funny. I get refunds for 40 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: clients from major global prey for olders and direct ocean carriers, 41 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: and you would think that, you know, there's some adversary 42 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: relations there, but you know, I think that what oceand 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 3: it really does is it helps make both parties better, 44 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: helps make the invoicing accuracy from the vendor better, and 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: it helps make the beneficial cargo owners process better. So 46 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 3: I joke a little bit about bulletproof glass. People always say, 47 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 3: don't the carriers get mad at you? But actually I 48 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: think they really respect the hell out of me. 49 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: Okay, And I have a question, so like what happens 50 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: that a shipper will get a refund? Like where are 51 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: the mistakes made or the issues that require the shipper 52 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: to request a refund. 53 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 3: The whole industry is so fascinating and frag And when 54 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: I talk about the industry, I mean just kind of 55 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: the whole freight audit and pay the whole kind of 56 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 3: general audit scope of what's happening, you know, with that 57 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: freight audit in general. And I think what happens in 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: ocean freight, especially in the maritime structurally, is that many 59 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,399 Speaker 3: freight auditors will look at four or five different variables. 60 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 3: For example, whether there's an overpayment or a duplicate payment, 61 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: and some of these quite quite honestly, are a little 62 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 3: bit sophomoric, right where you don't really necessarily need a 63 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 3: big gun to find out if something is you know, 64 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: duplicate paid. I mean, you know, systems should be able 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 3: to get those. I think with me and what I'm 66 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 3: seeing in my in my role in the industry is 67 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: I've actually cataloged forty two different ways that an ocean 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: freight invoice can go haywire, meaning forty two different roads 69 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: to recovery, where classically I think beneficial cargo owners and 70 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 3: other freight auditors are just looking at four or five 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: different ways. 72 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Right, you just name some of some of the I 73 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: guess outside of the overpayment and due payment, you know, 74 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: just a couple of the more common ways that that 75 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the shippers might be overpaying. 76 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: Sure, I don't think I'm giving away too much of 77 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 3: my Ferrara secret sauce here, but I think one of 78 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,919 Speaker 3: the things I see a lot of, as example, is 79 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 3: many clients don't realize that the gate end date when 80 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 3: the cargo is actually received in say Shanghai or in 81 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 3: Yantian or in Bangkok, that has everything to do with 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 3: what rate structure will be affixed on the invoice. So, 83 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 3: for example, if the cargo comes in on a Monday 84 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 3: to the company x y Z container facility in Bangkok, 85 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 3: and the new rate is effective Tuesday, well they're going 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: to get the old rate, right. So I think that 87 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 3: one of the biggest problems is hardly any vendor puts 88 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: down on the invoice the date the. 89 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 4: Cargo was received. 90 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 3: They put down on the invoice when the when the 91 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 3: cargo sailed, but not when it was received. And a 92 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 3: lot of people will go and ask me, is this malicious? 93 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 3: Is this on purpose? Is this kind of designed to 94 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: up through skate? I still don't know the answer after 95 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 3: forty two years. 96 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: Okay, and you know, and again I guess without giving 97 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: too much of the secret sauce like how much of 98 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: what you do is just you know, in your brain 99 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 1: or is it like a lot of a utilizing technology 100 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: to kind of find find these. 101 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 2: Mistakes? 102 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: If you will, so loaded question. I don't mind explaining 103 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: it a little bit, you know. I think one of 104 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 3: the things that's really been interesting. I'll give away a 105 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: little bit here to the audience. I think it's a 106 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 3: little premature, but I'm a strong candidate right now for 107 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: INK five thousand, right, and so I'm a solopreneur. I 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 3: have no employees, and yet I'll probably cross thingers crossed, 109 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 3: likely make the INK five thousand lists when it's announced 110 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 3: this summer. So how does a guy with no employees 111 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: make such a prestigious lie with that kind of a 112 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: revenue lift. One of the things I did about a 113 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: year or two years ago in preparation for how the 114 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 3: industry would change is I built some automation that allows 115 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: me to handle thirty to forty clients thirty to forty 116 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: audits simultaneously. And no, it's not AI, it's CI. And 117 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 3: you say, what's CI? Well, at TPM I was talking 118 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 3: a little bit about this. I think artificial intelligence, almost 119 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 3: like blockchain, is one of those up and coming things 120 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 3: in the overall container shipping industry. But CI is creative intelligence. 121 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: And I think that when you're in an art in 122 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 3: a science type industry like I am, you have to 123 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 3: be able to be in a high production environment, but 124 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 3: you have to use some very good creativity and marketing 125 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 3: right to make these funnels work the right way. 126 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 4: I've been able to do that. 127 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 1: All right, So in addition to some of your accomplishments, 128 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: you are an author as well. 129 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: Have you written more than one book. 130 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 3: To hit the best selling USA Today best selling list? 131 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 3: But it was my seminal work was called Navigating B 132 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 3: to B, which actually made it to number three on 133 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 3: Wall Street Journal and number eighty one on USA Today. 134 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 3: And I always tell people one of my cocktail party 135 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: allines is that on one week alone, just one week, 136 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 3: my book actually was ranked higher than Oprah Winfrey. So 137 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: that's my claim to fame. But Navigating B to B 138 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 3: is a very interesting book. Not to plug it, but 139 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: it's basically a compilation of how to achieve entrepreneurship and 140 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 3: success in a B to B logistics environment. So many 141 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,559 Speaker 3: of my friends and followers from LinkedIn have been using 142 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 3: it to pick up some tips and tricks on how 143 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 3: to overcome certain, you know, impediments in their own careers. 144 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 3: So it's a book that based on my entrepreneurial journey 145 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: as a two x founder. 146 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: Okay, And so one of one of the main like 147 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: I said earlier, one of the reasons why I wanted 148 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: to have you on is, you know, there's so much 149 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: going on in the marine shipping industry at your perspective 150 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: would be fantastic, given you. 151 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: Know, your long career. 152 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: You know, how would you characterize the state of the 153 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: global containerized shipping industry. 154 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 3: I think we're in what I call the three f's, 155 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 3: you know, Like my last name is Ferrera, so a 156 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: three F like Frank, and I think we I would 157 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 3: characterize it right now Lee as fragmented, fragile, and full 158 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 3: of fine tuning. 159 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 4: Actually that's four. 160 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: F's, But I think that the fragmentation, the fragility, and 161 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 3: the fine tuning that's going on right now really sums 162 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 3: up what's happening in the trades. 163 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: So I don't know if you're on this part of it, 164 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: but you know, how have you know, the tariffs, the 165 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: risk of tariffs, the increased protectionists policies that are coming 166 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: out of Washington, you know, how do you view that 167 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: as impacting the shipping industry Because you know, earlier this 168 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 1: morning on my commute in I was on listening to 169 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio like I do every morning, and you know, 170 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: they had the president of the Port of la and 171 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: he's talking about, you know, a demand coming down thirty 172 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: five percent because the towers kind of a what are 173 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: shippers telling you what are a liners telling you and 174 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: kind of where do you think we're going over the 175 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: months to come. 176 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: I see a lot of I've had a lot of 177 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 3: new intel on this over the last twenty four hours, 178 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 3: so I think it's something I feel uniquely qualified to 179 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 3: give some thought, thought bubbles to here. I think that 180 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 3: one of the things we're seeing is a lot of 181 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 3: the bigger, more prolific retailers, Without getting into names, obviously 182 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 3: they've some of them have slowed down the contracting process 183 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: with the Ocean vendors, and in turn, I obviously the 184 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 3: throughput of goods being booked for those vendors in origin 185 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 3: in Asia or other parts of the world have also 186 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 3: dropped off. 187 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 4: However, some of the mid tier retailers. 188 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 3: Right if you take your top one hundred retailers, let's 189 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 3: say the top one hundred, the top ten, have gone 190 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 3: into this kind of slow down protection, protectionism mode in 191 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 3: a way. And see I think the other mid tier, 192 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 3: from say number twenty five through fifty, they've actually been 193 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: a little bit more bolder because they're getting the space 194 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 3: they need. They're actually being invited with a silver tray 195 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 3: right to have just about anything they want from the 196 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 3: Ocean vendors because obviously what's happening. You see pitches of 197 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: ghost towns in Seattle Port of Seattle, and the maritime 198 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 3: traffic trackers show very little activity. You know, it's a 199 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 3: shipper's game, right, So I think that the mid tier 200 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 3: retailer taking a little bit more risk to get to 201 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: get product out there, but they're also getting taken care of. 202 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: The threat or the opportunity or the challenge that I 203 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 3: think we're going to see in the next sixty days 204 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: is win and I'm pretty sure it's when you know, 205 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 3: more relaxation comes of the tariffs. I hate to say it, 206 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 3: but I think we're going to see a mini COVID 207 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: congestion because what's going to happen is I think we're 208 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 3: going to see the top ten or twenty retailers start 209 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 3: to say, okay, we've got to jump on this. Keep 210 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 3: in mind, you know, many of these have pipeline production, right, 211 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 3: so they're ready to ramp up quickly at the factories 212 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: and they're looking for vessel space. It's going to create congestion. 213 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: And you know, it wouldn't surprise me to see in 214 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: the end of July ten twelve ships out in Long 215 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 3: beach again going back to what we saw in the 216 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: years of COVID. 217 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 1: So I guess are you a little more bullish on 218 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: shipping rates then? As you know, obviously global shipping rates 219 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: have come down significantly since their July highs. Do you 220 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: have any thoughts in where shipping rates are going to go? 221 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 3: Well, keep in mind, right, we have a lot of 222 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 3: things to think about too. We have the us TR 223 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 3: China vessel, you know, search charges which won't be as 224 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 3: much as you know we might have assumed they might 225 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: have been in the TPM days back in February or 226 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 3: early March. And I think right now, obviously you're right, 227 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 3: rates have gone down. However, if my theory is correct 228 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: and we start to see a reverberation, so to speak, 229 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 3: of these retailers needing the space, you know, this is 230 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 3: where I think rates come up and they stabilize. Now 231 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,200 Speaker 3: we'll probably not see booming rates, right, but we will 232 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: see I think more of a stabilization stabilization of them 233 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 3: this summer. 234 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: And you know you mentioned, you know, the US Trade 235 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: Representative of the us t R kind of what do 236 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: you think the rip effect of that that is going 237 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: to be once that goes into place. 238 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 3: I would have said a few months ago, when I 239 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 3: was sitting down in in La Long Beach and I 240 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: had a chance to talk to Lars Jensen from Spoochy Maritime. 241 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 3: I think, you know, Lars, you know, we were thinking that, 242 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 3: or I should say, I want to give him credit. 243 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 3: Lars was thinking that the surcharge could be five six, 244 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 3: seven hundred dollars a container can re call if it's 245 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 3: teu fu, I want to say it was FAU. Now 246 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 3: it turns out that it's looking more like akin to 247 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 3: what a Panama Canal, you know, tariff surcharge might be 248 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: of one hundred and forty one hundred and fifty dollars. 249 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 3: I think it's just one of those things that it's 250 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 3: going to be tough. I believe to opt out of 251 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: that surcharge. As you probably know ly many clients in 252 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: that retail space that I alluded to earlier, If you 253 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 3: look at their Appendix A in their ocean contracts, you 254 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 3: know it'll say no Panama Canal surface to apply, no 255 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: SUS fee to apply. I think this us t R 256 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 3: fee is going to be a mandatory fee that shippers 257 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: will have to deal with. But I look at it 258 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: as almost a non secutor. I think it's it's a fee. 259 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 3: But at the same time, I think many of them 260 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 3: are just deep breathing that it's not more than it 261 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 3: what it what it's going to be. 262 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, But like even like you know, you were mentioning earlier, 263 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: whether it's five six hundred dollars per container, you know, 264 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: when rates are around two thousand dollars, that's a that's 265 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: a big that's a big premium two to the cost 266 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: for the for the shipper. And it would be you know, 267 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: interesting to see why, I mean, you might have a 268 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 1: pretty good insight in this. 269 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: Why would a. 270 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: A retailer want to use a Chinese carrier or or 271 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: a carrier that's you know, as opposed to somebody else. 272 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 3: Well, excellent point, and that brings me back to my 273 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 3: thesis on you know, possible congestions because you know, you 274 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 3: may have ships out there that aren't that full, but 275 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 3: they're Chinese you know, owned and operated, and then you 276 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 3: have other ships that you know are not. So I 277 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 3: think it puts in another dimension, right of this fragility 278 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 3: right you mentioned asked me about the you know, the 279 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: state of the shipping industry right now, and I mentioned 280 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 3: that it was fragmented, fragile, and I think fine tuning. 281 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 3: I think this has a lot to do with that. 282 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 3: I think that's a great observation you made. And it's funny. 283 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 3: I we just went through the NFL draft, right, and 284 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: you always think of this. 285 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 4: I'm a big football. 286 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 3: Fan, and you know, you think of the draft war 287 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 3: rooms that are taking place, you know, when they make 288 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 3: these last minute decisions. Unfortunately, and I say this with 289 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 3: peace and love, you know, to all my brethren and 290 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 3: out there that are my clients and beneficial cargo owners, 291 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: a lot of them don't have the benefits of this 292 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 3: war room, right. 293 00:15:58,480 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 4: A lot of times. 294 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: It's three and four, you know, young and seasoned professionals 295 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 3: that are making these multimillion dollar decisions for their the company, 296 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 3: and they're hearing a lot of it, of the noise 297 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 3: from experts like ourselves, right and you and me and 298 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: Bloomberg and and you know, I think it's really interesting 299 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: that a lot of times you have to keep in 300 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 3: mind clients are hearing a lot of the information from 301 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: vendors and it's not always you know, an equal one 302 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: to one sharing. When you know people are getting information 303 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 3: that way, very few customers, you know, other than you know, 304 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 3: the Walmarts, the targets, you know, the and and the 305 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 3: ilk of that kind have the ability to go home depot, 306 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 3: to go really three dimensional into that kind of that 307 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 3: war room activity for that kind of fine tuning. 308 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 4: All right. 309 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: More importantly, who's your NFL team that your roots were? 310 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: Well, I believe it or not. I mean, I've been 311 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: a Patspian for so many years. I'm not sure about 312 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 3: all what's happening with Bill Belichick legend. 313 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 4: So I think I'm shifting to a Ravens fan, believe 314 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 4: it or not. Just I like those Ravens. 315 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: Yeah right, I'm a long time Giant fan. 316 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: It's been been a tough couple of years. Actually more 317 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 2: than a couple of years. It has been a tough 318 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: many years. 319 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,160 Speaker 1: So you know, in your in your three f's, can 320 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: you explain what you meant by fragmented, Because you know, 321 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: the shipping industry is becoming more more and more consolidated. 322 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 2: So I guess what what do you meant? What did 323 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 2: you mean by the fragmented part? 324 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,919 Speaker 3: Well, when I think of fragmented, I think about the 325 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: world stage right, and I think about the fact that China, 326 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: for example, just made you know, great new contracts with 327 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 3: New Zealand and Australia right for beef trade, which would 328 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 3: have been you know, our heartland, our Kansas, Nebraska, you know, 329 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 3: huge beef exporters. So fragmented in the sense that the 330 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 3: tides are changing, right, people are still moving and they're 331 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: making decisions that are good for their company, whereas in 332 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 3: a geopolitical event, right, people are making decisions on what's 333 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 3: good for the country, and sometimes the two don't play 334 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 3: nice together. So I think the fragmentation, you know, is, 335 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 3: for example, it might be great. I talked to a 336 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 3: friend in Australia this morning and you know, he was 337 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: talking to me about the ten percent duties for Australian cargo, 338 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: ten percent New Zealand, ten percent Singapore. And granted, you know, 339 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: there's not much activity right that's coming out of there 340 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: that people can pivot to, but it's a good indication 341 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: I think of how these war rooms starting to play 342 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: the numbers and the fragmentation of trade shifting away more 343 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 3: rapidly than we might have expected. You know, you always 344 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 3: have been told it's really tough to displace a Chinese 345 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 3: factory in Mexico. Well, okay, this is definitely expedited. So 346 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 3: I think that's kind of where I'm looking at the 347 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: fact that these geopolitical events are causing this fragmentation at 348 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 3: the same time. 349 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: Gotcha, And I asked with you know, just hitting back 350 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: on the three f's, you know, can you talk a 351 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: little bit more amount fine tuning? Where else do you 352 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: think that the industry is going to do that? 353 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 4: Yeah? 354 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think a lot of it has to 355 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 3: do with you know, here we are now in a 356 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five where we have a lot of the 357 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 3: vessel alliances with you know, new rotations and new hub 358 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 3: and spoke activities, bringing everything into one big port and 359 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 3: then sending them out on smaller ships or smaller ships 360 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 3: going into one big port, and then one big port 361 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: feeding everything into the US. I think that the thing 362 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 3: about the fine tuning is ocean carriers. They must know 363 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 3: something I don't know, right, because I just saw the 364 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 3: other day, you know, one of the one of the 365 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 3: voccs just went in for you know, eight or ten 366 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: new new builds. The one thing that's really fascinating is 367 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 3: the cost of leasing container ships is not falling, it's 368 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: actually going up, right, And so what's uh that tells me. Right, 369 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 3: That tells me that, you know, their war rooms are terrific, Right, 370 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: they don't make these decisions for not you know, just 371 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: to have nicer ships. So it's sort of like my 372 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: shipping stocks, right, I'm a big shipping stock investor tankers, 373 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: you know, bulker is dry, dry, you know, you name it. 374 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 3: I look at everything in that in the shipping industry, 375 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 3: and there's an old adage I think that with container 376 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,560 Speaker 3: shipping stocks or tanker stocks is that there's no such 377 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 3: thing as. 378 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 4: By low sell high. 379 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 3: There's always a good entry point because it's always going 380 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 3: to be a you know, uh, a tumultuous you know, 381 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 3: price environment. And and so I think that in our industry, right, 382 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: the fine tuning that is going on behind the scenes 383 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,639 Speaker 3: at the vessel owner activity, it's not that they know 384 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 3: something we don't. It's that they know that these cycles 385 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 3: turn on their own, right. 386 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 4: Lee, who would have ever thought. 387 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: Right that unlike COVID, Right, a COVID event was a 388 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,239 Speaker 3: kind of a physical chemical event. And now we had 389 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 3: a geopolitical event with the tariffs, And who would have 390 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 3: ever thought that the tariffs would have had such big blowback? 391 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: And I think that that's one of the things that 392 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 3: we're always have to look forward. 393 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 4: You know. 394 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 3: It's almost like I'm a big James Bond movie fan too, right, 395 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 3: So there's you know, Die Another Day, right, that's the 396 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 3: title of I think one of the Bond movies. 397 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 4: I think it's Live Another Day. 398 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 3: I think that there's so much the cyclical nature and 399 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 3: shipping that the owners are ready for, you know, the 400 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 3: next five years, the next ten years, and a lot 401 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 3: of this has to do you know with obviously the 402 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: types of fuels, the IMO, the emissions, the green energy. 403 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: So you know, right now, that's more in the No 404 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: one's thinking too much about that because bunker fuel is 405 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 3: pretty cheap right now. But I think that's part of 406 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 3: the answer to the question is that it's interesting how 407 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: new build contracts are being signed left and right. Leasing 408 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 3: rates on container ships are very high. They haven't dropped 409 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: at all as far as I know, right. 410 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 2: You know that that's a good segue. 411 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned some of the emission stuff. What 412 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: are your views on the IMO emission targets twenty fifty 413 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: getting to zero? Do you think that's something that is realistic, 414 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: assuming that we don't go back to sales. 415 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 3: Well, again, you're looking at something I think that is 416 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: again a bit fragmented. I think if you looked at 417 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: you know, twenty twenty through twenty thirty, twenty forty, you 418 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 3: know we're going to still kind of be in the 419 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 3: current technology idiom, you know, scrubbers, slow steaming, maybe LNG, 420 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: you know, as propulsion. I think that if you start 421 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 3: to look to twenty thirty and twenty fifty, you know, 422 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 3: we really have to start moving into more zero carbon 423 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 3: type fuels, enhanced hell and ship design. And again, one 424 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: thing that's overlooked right is scale scalable infrastructure, you know, 425 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 3: both at landside ports and along the supply chain. Otherwise 426 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 3: the whole thing is a little bit moot. But I 427 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 3: think it's it's still a little premature, you know to say. 428 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 3: You know, like I talked a few minutes ago about 429 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 3: about bunker fuel prices. 430 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: I looked this morning and I think WT West Texas. 431 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 3: Intermediate crewed was about fifty nine or sixty. And you 432 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 3: know it's Saudi. You know they're you know, with their 433 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 3: pumping or not pumping right now. You know, the cap 434 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 3: ards seat is hey. You know, the bunker fuel is 435 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 3: fairly low. You know, the search charges on bunker you know, 436 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 3: during COVID years twenty twenty one twenty twenty two was 437 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 3: you know, outrageous, and now it's a little bit more 438 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 3: more moderate. So I think anytime you have that kind 439 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 3: of flex, you know, with the fuel cost, uh it, 440 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 3: I don't mind. I don't mean to say it takes 441 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 3: the eye off the ball of an important issue like 442 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 3: the whole IMO thing, but I think it does a bit, 443 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: and then it just takes a little bit longer for 444 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 3: you know, the carbon neutral folks to start getting on 445 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,640 Speaker 3: their pulpit again, right right, you know. 446 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: Just going back to to the the U S. 447 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: T R you know, fees that they've announced. Do you 448 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: think it's gonna do you think it's gonna change the 449 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: where people buy their ships outside of China? Like obviously 450 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: the Chinese are going to buy Chinese, Chinese made ships 451 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: because it supports their ship building industry. I mean, do 452 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: you do you see other liners saying, well, you know, 453 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: obviously not going to go buy a U. S ship 454 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: because we're not really making them. But like maybe I'm 455 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: going to spend a little money and buy something out 456 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: of South Korea or Japan, so I don't have to, 457 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: you know, deal with these sort of fees in the future. 458 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: Well, the nice thing about your about the answer potential 459 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 3: answers to the question is that there are obviously alternatives 460 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 3: in Japan and Korea as opposed to China. The US 461 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 3: shipbuilding obviously is right now out of the question. I 462 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 3: believe that my study show or I read something recently 463 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 3: that you know, a thirty million dollars ship in China 464 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 3: would have been a three hundred million dollars ship in 465 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 3: the US. 466 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 4: Right. 467 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: But I will say this though, I think that it's interesting, 468 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 3: you know, just is maybe a side. I follow the 469 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 3: market stock markets quite clearly closely, and I know mattson 470 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 3: my MATS line is in a very interesting position. 471 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 4: I think with their. 472 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 3: Stock price and is you know, the US, I think 473 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 3: that they could be a potential big winner. On the 474 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 3: on the other hand, you know, their root structure is 475 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 3: a bit limited. 476 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 4: I will say this. 477 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: I think that if you get a preponderance or a 478 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 3: cadence of ocean rates that are starting to look more stable, right, 479 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 3: not these you know, one thousand dollars and two thousand 480 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 3: dollars rates, And I think that if you start to 481 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 3: see more of a moderate increase, you know, in rates 482 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,479 Speaker 3: are in the three thousand and four thousand for more 483 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 3: of a pronounced period. 484 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 4: I think it gives more confidence to owners. 485 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 3: To start saying, Okay, we're getting a little bit more 486 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 3: in the freight rate, then we'll contract, you know with 487 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 3: you know, with South Korea yard or Japanese yard. So 488 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: not to say it's impossible, right, but at the same time, 489 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: I think that one of the things you have to 490 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 3: keep in mind is the leasing the container leasing companies, 491 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 3: the I'm sorry, the charter companies like Global Ship Leaves, 492 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 3: like Denos Naviaris and mm you know, they're also so 493 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 3: you know, ocean liners have the ability to do obviously 494 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 3: long term leases, and so you have to also look 495 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 3: and kind of follow the money where the where the 496 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 3: container ship leasing companies are actually already contracted out for 497 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 3: their hells and their new builds. Some of these contracts 498 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 3: have already been out for years and it's tough to 499 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 3: pull back. So it's a little bit of a shell game, 500 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,920 Speaker 3: right in terms of how I think how that ends 501 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 3: up being played. 502 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: Gotcha, Well, the problem is that this is an industry 503 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: of booms and busts. So to have stable, respectable rates 504 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: for a long period of time is it's pretty hard 505 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: to accomplish. 506 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 3: Well, I think that they when I say they obviously 507 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 3: the vessel operating common carriers that were proliferating and profiting 508 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 3: so highly and so multi dimensionally right during COVID and 509 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 3: the twenty one thousand dollars twenty two thousand dollars ocean rates. 510 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 4: There's a lot to be said that they. 511 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 3: Allocated their part of those incredible fees for many two years, 512 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 3: you know, to their war chest for new builds. So 513 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 3: on one hand, it's almost like, hey, we can pay it. 514 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 3: Right where my daughter goes to school, right, I see 515 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 3: a couple of Rolls Royces and a lot of Bentley's right, 516 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 3: and I'm thinking to myself, wow, how can somebody pay 517 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 3: four hundred thousand for that kind of car? And then 518 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 3: you know, you read about the person and well they 519 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 3: just iPod for you know, one hundred million, So you know, 520 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,120 Speaker 3: what's a four hundred thousand dollars investment. I don't mean 521 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 3: to make it so trivial, but I think that some 522 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 3: of these things went into play, and they're not so 523 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 3: well pronounced in the media where you say, okay, well 524 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 3: they're really risking, you know, going into bankruptcy. By taking 525 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 3: their financial stability and investing it into new builds. The 526 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 3: fact is is that when those moneies came in in 527 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two, they already allocated 528 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,320 Speaker 3: a certain amount of those funds to new builds. So 529 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 3: this is almost like it, you know, And there's a 530 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,959 Speaker 3: great movie margin Call where you know, they're thinking, Okay, 531 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 3: when is this uh calamity gonna destroy the bank and 532 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 3: the analysts say, well, it already happened two weeks ago, right, 533 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 3: And I love that movie so much because this is 534 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 3: almost part of that is that these decisions are not 535 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 3: being made now. These have been made, you know, for 536 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: months and years in the in the foreground background. 537 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned TPM, which is a big shipping 538 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: conference that the JOC puts on. It's it's a must attend, 539 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: especially if you or I are speaking at it. Uh. 540 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 4: I love that. 541 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, you know a lot of contraction negotiated. 542 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: Then what are you hearing like where are contract rates 543 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: today relative to where they were last year for a 544 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: lot of your your customers? 545 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 3: You know, I I think that the answer to the 546 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 3: question is that it's in the middle, right. I think 547 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: that there's not any necessarily sustainable huge swings, because you 548 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: have to keep in mind when you're talking about the 549 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 3: you know, the eighty twenty rule or the twenty eighty rule, 550 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 3: and you're looking at you know, the walmarts and the 551 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 3: home depots, you know, those rates are always going to 552 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 3: be spectacular, despite what the general market might be doing. 553 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: And of course, now that you have so many interesting 554 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 3: indices and Nyschek's just came out with theirs, you know, 555 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 3: it's really becomes a little bit easier not to have 556 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 3: this war room to say, hey, am I getting a 557 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 3: good rate? Or am not getting a good rate? Did 558 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: our team do a good job negotiating? Did they not 559 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: do a good job negotiating the truth of the matter 560 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 3: is that a lot of the contracts and agreements are 561 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: sort of on hold on some of the big guys 562 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 3: and some of the intermedia guys. As I mentioned in 563 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 3: my earlier remarks, some of the people that are getting 564 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: space now, well, they decided to go for it, right 565 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 3: And when they go for it and they sign a contract, 566 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean they're paying you know, four thousand or 567 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 3: five thousand dollars. You know, certainly the rates don't distinguish 568 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 3: themselves to be at those kind of levels right now, 569 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 3: So I think that the the. 570 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 4: Traction, right. 571 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 3: And if I was if I have a left entrepreneurship 572 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 3: and somebody had me run the war room, you know, 573 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 3: at a home depot or you know, Adidas or whoever 574 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 3: it is, by the way, I wouldn't like that role 575 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: because I like what I'm doing. 576 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 4: It's not an indication I want to move into the 577 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 4: BCO side. 578 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 3: But what I'm saying is I definitely would be looking. 579 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 4: At a unique type of contract. 580 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 3: With indices with overrides. You know, if this happens, then 581 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 3: this happens. I think, right what happens is because beneficial 582 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 3: cargo owners are hearing contracting news directly from the horse's mouth, 583 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 3: it sometimes limits their actions unless they're very well informed 584 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 3: and educated about the options. I think I would write 585 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 3: a completely unique type of contract to allow me to 586 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 3: take advantage of the market no matter what it's doing. 587 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 3: And I think unfortunately that's not always the case. 588 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: Ley, Right, And you know you mentioned a couple of 589 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: times you know that you're that you're a big watcher 590 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: of the markets, and I guess you know you invest 591 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: in the markets as well, just broadly speaking, you know, 592 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: not to name you know, individual stocks, but you know, 593 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: are are you bullish of on the on the liner 594 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: stocks or on the tanker stocks and the dry boat stocks? 595 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 4: Oh? 596 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 3: Man, I'll tell you you know. I'm I'm out of 597 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 3: dry powder right now. I mean the extra funds to invest. 598 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: But if if I get some new cash, I would 599 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 3: be almost willing to put one hundred percent of it 600 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 3: and go on margin on some of the dry bulk 601 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 3: stocks and tanker stocks. I am so bullish on I 602 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: think the next five years to ten years, which is 603 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 3: my horizon based on my age in shipping. 604 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 4: I am so bullish. 605 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 3: Oh I should I should get I should get. One 606 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: caveat part I apologize. Maybe not so much on the 607 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: container the pure container stock, right, you know, like a 608 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 3: VOCC that is publicly traded. But as far as like 609 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 3: a ship or leased a leasing company of container ships, 610 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 3: I'm all in. 611 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: That's great, that's great. 612 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: So you know, we mentioned in the beginning you've been 613 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: in the industry for over forty years. Can you talk 614 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of how you found your way into 615 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: the marine shipping industry. 616 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to talk about. 617 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 3: I love that I love thinking about that day when 618 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 3: it happened. In nineteen eighty two, I was an early 619 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 3: I got an early offer in my junior year, I 620 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 3: believe it or not, before I even became a senior 621 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 3: to go to work for Time magazine in New York 622 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 3: as a marketing manager. I did a lot of informational 623 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 3: interview and interviewing. I had great mentors, and I actually 624 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 3: lined up a job with Time in Manhattan, and I 625 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 3: thought to myself, Wow, there's nothing better, right, being twenty 626 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 3: one and in Manhattan, And I remember back in nineteen 627 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 3: eighty two, that prospective job paid sixteen thousand dollars, right 628 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 3: is sixteen thousand. It was pretty good back then. And 629 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 3: then my senior year, a little maritime company came to 630 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 3: campus and I said my career counselors said, hey, you 631 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 3: should meet them. You know, they're doing some innovative stuff. 632 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 3: And at the time the company was called Well it 633 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 3: was the original US Lines, Malcolm maclean's company. And so 634 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 3: they come on campus and they said, you know, we 635 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 3: like your style. What's your offer from Time? And I 636 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,919 Speaker 3: said sixteen thousand. They said, well we'll do thirty two. 637 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 4: What sign up? 638 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 3: So as romantic as I would want it to seem 639 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 3: like me coming into the industry. It was purely like, 640 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 3: what what did I just hear? 641 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 4: You know? 642 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 3: And the thing is is that either were eight hundred 643 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,439 Speaker 3: people in my class and I was I think number 644 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 3: four hundred. I was exactly in the middle. And so 645 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,800 Speaker 3: we had some really super talented folks in my class 646 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,720 Speaker 3: at Providence College, and there were people going to Goldman 647 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,359 Speaker 3: and you know, Procter and Gamble, and they were all 648 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,800 Speaker 3: making less than I would like. I never said, really 649 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 3: what I made. This is like one of the first 650 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 3: time I ever talked about it publicly. But it was 651 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 3: amazing what that did to me. Yeah, and little did 652 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 3: I know that I would stay in the industry and 653 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 3: what kind of role was it At US Lions. 654 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,920 Speaker 4: It was really interesting. 655 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 3: They said, we're not sure you know what your role 656 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 3: will be until you go through our extensive training program. 657 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 4: And they were amazing because they would put me. 658 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,000 Speaker 3: I worked on the docks in New York City, you know, 659 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 3: with some of the most strangest and shady characters I'd 660 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 3: ever meet, you know, in the waterfront. You can just 661 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,279 Speaker 3: picture where I'm going with that. And they put me 662 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 3: through operations through the equipment yard through you know, managing 663 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 3: the vessel still plan. And at the end they said, hey, look, 664 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 3: you know you're a fine operator, but your personality and 665 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 3: persona is what we want on the street to talk 666 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 3: to Walmart and to you know, Procter and Gamble to 667 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 3: get their cargo on our ships. And so I ended 668 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 3: up with them with them, and then ended up at 669 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 3: Sea Land after US Lions went bankrupt due to their 670 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 3: some bad investments in their eco ships. And then I 671 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 3: was in China and Taiwan for a good number of 672 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 3: years where I cut my teeth over there. So yeah, 673 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 3: I've been really gifted and blessed that the ocean industry 674 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 3: has brought me along to you know the level I am. 675 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,919 Speaker 1: Now, that's great, That's absolutely great. 676 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 2: And I would like to ask my guests this question. 677 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 1: You know, obviously, besides your own books, is there a 678 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: book about the shipping industry or maybe you know, investing 679 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: or entrepreneurship that's kind of close to your heart. 680 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 3: You know, I think that for me, you know, my 681 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:17,840 Speaker 3: wife is a voracious reader. 682 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 4: Me not so. 683 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 3: I mean I think that what I try to do 684 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 3: is pry myself on what's happening in real time I'm 685 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 3: sixty four, so I think that by taking action on 686 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,720 Speaker 3: like i'm I'm in tune with one of the best 687 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 3: investment guys in the world on shipping, and he writes 688 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 3: a thesis on, you know, the state of shipping. So 689 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: I'm looking more towards that right now as opposed to, 690 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,439 Speaker 3: you know, getting into something new. Obviously there's some great 691 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,399 Speaker 3: seminal works. The Box comes to my mind in terms 692 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 3: of one of the great books on the container shipping industry. 693 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 3: A big fan of Malcolm MacLean, anything that mentions him 694 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 3: or his journey, I've always kind of mimicked a lot 695 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: of my life after what he's done. 696 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 697 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: For for those that don't know, Malcolm MacLean pretty much 698 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: invented the intermodal box that we that we have today, 699 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 1: so he's uh, he's credited with really creating the container 700 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:24,480 Speaker 1: liner industry. So uh, that's super Well. Well, Steve, I 701 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 1: really want to thank you for your time. I think 702 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: this is a great conversation and you know, I joined. 703 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed hearing your insights about the industry. 704 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 4: O Leet. 705 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 3: What an honor to chat with you about some of 706 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 3: the dynamic things that are happening love the reporting that 707 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,359 Speaker 3: you're doing at Bloomberg and please keep up the great work. 708 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 3: And again, thank you so much for the time today. 709 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: All right, thank you, and I want to thank you 710 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 2: for tuning in. 711 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: If you liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review. 712 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 1: We've lined up a number of great guests for the podcast, 713 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,799 Speaker 1: so please check back to hear conversations with C suite executives, shippers, regulators, 714 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you 715 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,000 Speaker 1: want to learn more about the freight transportation markets, please 716 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: check out our work on the Bloomberg terminal at BIGO 717 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: or on social media. This is Lee Clasgal signing off 718 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: and thanks for talking transports with me. Bye.