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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. So that was the original vision, Bob. I

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Speaker 1: mean I worked at such As. I was in the

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Speaker 1: hot house, just like Harvard Business School would be in

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Speaker 1: the hot house. And really you describe such as as

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Speaker 1: being one of the largest advertising agencies in the world

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Speaker 1: with the brothers, with Morrison Charles, with what was then

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Speaker 1: called wire and plastic products. We were trying to emulate that.

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Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to another episode of Math

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Speaker 1: and Magic. Stories from the Frontiers and marketing. Today, we

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Speaker 1: have someone who built the biggest advertising holding company in

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Speaker 1: the world and one that fully embodied both math and magic,

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Speaker 1: and he started it all with a tiny wire basket company.

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Speaker 1: One of the great media and advertising entrepreneurs all time,

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Speaker 1: Sir Martin Sorel. Sir Martin grew up in London, educated

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Speaker 1: at both Cambridge and Harvard, where he got his NBA.

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Speaker 1: He had a great career in advertising before he struck

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Speaker 1: out in his own creating w PP. He was the

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Speaker 1: star financial wizard behind Sachi and Sachi, which during his

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Speaker 1: tenure became one of the biggest ad agencies in the world.

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Speaker 1: He worked with legendary sports agent Mark McCormick, and he

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Speaker 1: also covered the nineteen Democratic Convention in Atlantic City for

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Speaker 1: a school newspaper. Most important, he has keen insights, strong

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Speaker 1: opinions and is not shy about sharing them. Welcome, sir Martin,

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Speaker 1: delighted to be with you. You know you have had

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Speaker 1: your own front row seat for history in the advertising business,

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Speaker 1: are very few people have THEIRS aspect if you do.

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Speaker 1: But first, I want to do a little feature which

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Speaker 1: is exploring you in sixty seconds. You're ready, I'm ready.

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Speaker 1: Do you prefer London or New York? I would offend

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Speaker 1: so many people by something many other I like them both.

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Speaker 1: Cricket or rugby, cricket, Cambridge, England or Cambridge Massachusetts, Cambridge, Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: Sunrise or sunset, sunrise, beach or mountains, beach, spring or fall,

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Speaker 1: call or text, text jazz or blues jazz. David Ogilvie

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Speaker 1: or Don Draper David smartest person you know, well, the smartest,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't know it was my dad favorite film.

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Speaker 1: First job a salesman for my father in one of

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Speaker 1: his radio and electrical stores. If you could have one superpower,

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Speaker 1: what would it be to be even faster in terms

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Speaker 1: of response. That's impressive. By the way, you are very

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Speaker 1: impressive with how quickly would you respond to emails anytime

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Speaker 1: I reach out? Muses exactly. So let's jump into where

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Speaker 1: you and I met. I think the years seven you

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Speaker 1: were just beginning to put together this enormous company w

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Speaker 1: P P. And you owned about almost five percent of

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Speaker 1: J Walter Thompson. I had a group we owned about

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Speaker 1: five percent of J Walter Thompson. I think someone I

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Speaker 1: never forgot who it was, said, Okay, it's clear you

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Speaker 1: guys are trying to do a takeover of j w T.

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Speaker 1: So is Martin Sorrel. You guys should be and so

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Speaker 1: we set up a meeting with Lou Wasserman, Sid Sheinberg,

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Speaker 1: who ran m c A. Who were my partners, You

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Speaker 1: and a couple of folks. You said, you know, we

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Speaker 1: could do this together. You do all that creative stuff

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Speaker 1: you want to do, but I'll do the financial and structure.

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Speaker 1: Now I've never asked you this, Was that really true

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Speaker 1: or were you just trying to get us in? Well,

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Speaker 1: Bruce Boston said to me, we actually earned I think

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Speaker 1: eight percent we bought in the market eight percent of

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Speaker 1: j W T, and Bruce said to me, go and

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Speaker 1: find out what they're thinking of doing. So Robert Lowell,

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Speaker 1: who was our CFO and I we walked on. Got

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Speaker 1: to get this into perspective. So Robert level and I've

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Speaker 1: been working on wire and plastic products for a year

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Speaker 1: or so. We started in a D five eighty six,

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Speaker 1: and this was the middle of eighty seven, and here

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Speaker 1: we were in New York. We made our first deal

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Speaker 1: in in America, which was a small real estate advertising agency,

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Speaker 1: and we were walking down Madison Avenue or wherever it was,

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Speaker 1: and we were walking into this building, this huge building,

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Speaker 1: and we were shown into your office where you were

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Speaker 1: with Stid Sheinberg, and I always remember we started to

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Speaker 1: talk about a deal or work together with you, and

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Speaker 1: I was there as Bruce suggested to try and find

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Speaker 1: out the most that I could about what your intentions were,

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Speaker 1: what they weren't. And I remember Sid Sheinberg at some

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Speaker 1: stage slightly raising his voice and said to me, but

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Speaker 1: sorrel or mark him, whatever you called me, you haven't

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Speaker 1: even been elected yet. And you know, he was implying

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Speaker 1: that I was almost a thing, as though we owned

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Speaker 1: j w T already. And it was very funny and

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Speaker 1: I left the room with Robert Lowell, and as we

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Speaker 1: got to the elevator, I remember saying Robert, well, I

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Speaker 1: forgot to ask them something. And I went back into

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Speaker 1: the room. I don't know whether you remember this, and

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Speaker 1: I stuck my head round the door and I said,

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Speaker 1: by the way, one thing, I forgot to ask you

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Speaker 1: what sort of price you had in mind, because we

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Speaker 1: were talking about doing some form of joint deal, and

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Speaker 1: you never responded with a price, and I walked away.

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Speaker 1: You know, I said thank you very much. I came

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Speaker 1: away from that meeting thinking that you weren't serious. I

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Speaker 1: was there to try and find out whether you were

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Speaker 1: a potentially competitive bid. My feeling from the meeting was

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Speaker 1: that you weren't. You know, I was sent there and

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Speaker 1: now I might have been totally wrong. You have to

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Speaker 1: tell me what the truth was. Yeah, it's interesting. I

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Speaker 1: think we started buying the stock, as I recall, somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the twenties, and he got up into the fifties

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Speaker 1: by the time the deal was done. And I think you,

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Speaker 1: I think, had a better idea of all the assets.

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Speaker 1: What we missed was that there was that Tokyo real

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Speaker 1: estate that was about a third of the value of

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Speaker 1: the company, and I think have we known that, we

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Speaker 1: would have been more eager to go ahead. But a

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Speaker 1: fifty dollars a share, we started saying, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: got a nice profit here. But it was fascinating, and

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Speaker 1: of course I was interested in it because of the

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Speaker 1: media transformation going on at the time with this new

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Speaker 1: technology called cable, and the advertising was available there, and

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Speaker 1: I thought I knew something that the rest of the

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Speaker 1: world didn't really understand. Having come out of MTV Networks,

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Speaker 1: of course, you had a much bigger vision of what

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Speaker 1: you had in store. So tell me when you were

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Speaker 1: putting this together and you had this vision, give me

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Speaker 1: just two seconds on what the original vision was for WPP.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's no way you could have understood or

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Speaker 1: thought it was going to be as big as it

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Speaker 1: actually turned out to be. If you go to the

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Speaker 1: original document, it says our objective was to build a

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Speaker 1: major multinational marketing services firms. So that was the original vision, Bob.

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Speaker 1: I mean I worked at sarch As. I was in

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Speaker 1: the hot house. Remember Bruce Wasserstein saying to me that

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Speaker 1: Sarches was a hot house just like Harvard Business School.

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Speaker 1: To be in the hot house. And really you describe

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Speaker 1: Sarches as being one of the largest advertising agencies or

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Speaker 1: holding companies. I think at one stage it was the

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Speaker 1: largest in the world with the brothers with Morrison Charles,

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Speaker 1: and we were trying to emulate that with what was

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Speaker 1: then called wire and plastic products. We didn't know, as

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Speaker 1: you suggest, that we would grow so so significantly and

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Speaker 1: we will make such an impact as we did. But

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Speaker 1: you know, we were very ambitious, and just like with

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Speaker 1: S four, which is our new digital vehicle that we

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Speaker 1: started two years ago, here we are what two billion

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Speaker 1: pounds too and aft to point six billion dollars the

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Speaker 1: market cap two years on. And when people say to me,

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Speaker 1: what do you think we can do with S four,

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Speaker 1: I'm hesitant to lay out specifically one. I think it

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Speaker 1: is possible because, as Morris and Charles used to say

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Speaker 1: it Sarches, nothing is impossible, but nothing is impossible. Let's

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Speaker 1: jump a little bit and I'm going to come back

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Speaker 1: to some of the w PP, but I'd really like

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Speaker 1: to get into some influences all of us, and certainly

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Speaker 1: I know you do this. You learned a lot from

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Speaker 1: every situation you were in and every person you encountered

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Speaker 1: what did you learn from Mark McCormick, the biggest sports

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Speaker 1: agent of his time and the founder of i MG,

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Speaker 1: And you spent some time with him very early in

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Speaker 1: your career. He basically spent his life doing what he

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Speaker 1: enjoyed doing. You know, he was a scratch golfer. I

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Speaker 1: think he met Arnold Palmer at Wake Forest. Arnold Powler

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Speaker 1: was a ten percent shot at shareholder in i MG,

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Speaker 1: which I think used to drive Jack Nicholas nuts. Mark

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Speaker 1: represented Arnold power, Jack Nicholas and Gary Player, the big

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Speaker 1: three all at the same time. And I think Jack

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Speaker 1: resented a little bit the fact that every time you

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Speaker 1: played Arnold was was interested in ten percent of his

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Speaker 1: winnings things. But I think one of the principal things

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Speaker 1: about Mark was that there was no defining line between

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Speaker 1: work and business. I mean, what he did he really enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: It was fun. You know. He was a lawyer by training.

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Speaker 1: He loved golf and he applied his legal training to golf.

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Speaker 1: I remember the case at the Harvard Business School that

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Speaker 1: that's how I met Mark. He was the subject of

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Speaker 1: one of the cases in a course called Management of

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Speaker 1: New Enterprises M n E. And I remember that in

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Speaker 1: that case study it referred to how Wasserman when he

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Speaker 1: managed m c A, he managed talent. There was a

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Speaker 1: famous conductor, band conductor orchestra conductor who he managed, and

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Speaker 1: at every concert Wasserman made sure that his baton was there.

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Speaker 1: And Mark used to say, if Arnold Palmer I had

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Speaker 1: six and half shoes or whatever it is, he would

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Speaker 1: make sure that Arnold always had the right shoes at

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Speaker 1: the tournament. And his attention to detail. That was the point.

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Speaker 1: Not only your career should be around what you regard

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Speaker 1: as being fun, but also attention to detail. Let's jump

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Speaker 1: to the SARChI brothers, Maurice and Charles. They, as you

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Speaker 1: point out, created the biggest ad agency at the time,

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Speaker 1: and they were the first big disruptors of the modern

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Speaker 1: day ad business. What did you learn from them? Very

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Speaker 1: interesting thing about them. They were not members of the

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Speaker 1: i p A, the Incorporated Practitioners of Advertising, because there

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Speaker 1: was an unwritten rule that you didn't pitch for each

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Speaker 1: other's business if you were a member of the i

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Speaker 1: p A. So they weren't members of the i PA

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Speaker 1: because they pitched everybody's business and they were disruptors. And

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Speaker 1: what did I learn from them. I learned that nothing

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Speaker 1: was impossible and think that was one of Morris's favorite phrases.

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Speaker 1: But again, you know it was about fun. I mean

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Speaker 1: that era of Sarches in the seventies, that era from

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Speaker 1: about nineteen seventy seven five was an incrediblera. I mean

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Speaker 1: every week campaign magazine would cover another account win. In

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Speaker 1: those days of million pounds was a lot of billings,

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Speaker 1: and every week on a Thursday morning, the headlining campaign

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Speaker 1: would be Sarch's Winds another one million, two million, three

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Speaker 1: million pounds account. They were very ambitious, so I would

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Speaker 1: say nothing is impossible. Global ambition, speed, persistence, all those

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Speaker 1: sort of things were really important in a SARCHY framework.

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Speaker 1: They did win an enormous amount of business. Were they

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Speaker 1: winning an ideas or on price? Now they were doing

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Speaker 1: on ideas. I mean there was an aura. It came

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Speaker 1: from the advertising that Charles was always credited with originating

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Speaker 1: around the work they did for the Jaffer account, or

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Speaker 1: the Israekie citrus fruit account, the Pregnant Man, and there

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Speaker 1: of course Manhattan Landing for British Airways, that very extravagant,

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Speaker 1: expensive set of TV commercials of British air Ways I

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Speaker 1: mean there was a mystique, you know, the work they

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Speaker 1: did for the Conservative Party, the relationship that Tim Bell

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Speaker 1: forged with Margaret Thatcher being credited with labor isn't working

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Speaker 1: that famous outdoor post of that long wavy line of

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Speaker 1: unemployed people and the headline laborers and working that that

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Speaker 1: resonated culturally to an incredible degree. So it was the

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Speaker 1: creative reputation of Sargeants that were so strong. Let's stay

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Speaker 1: on ideas for a minute. Let's talk about what did

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Speaker 1: you learn from someone who you fought with initially and

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Speaker 1: then became your friend. David Ogilville. Well, David, you know

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Speaker 1: I met through the Ogilvie deal in he famously called me.

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Speaker 1: According to the Financial Times, it was an odious little jerk.

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Speaker 1: Actually it was odious little ship that at that time

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Speaker 1: the Financial Times wouldn't print four letter words. But we

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Speaker 1: knew that he was going to be quite vitriolic when

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Speaker 1: we launched our so called facts attack. We launched it

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Speaker 1: on a Friday evening, pressed the button on me, the

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Speaker 1: Bear Hugg letter, as it was called, to Ken Roman,

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Speaker 1: who was the then chairman and CEO of Ogilvy. We

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Speaker 1: knew that they were aving away day in upstate New York,

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Speaker 1: and we're sending it by facts. And it was also

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Speaker 1: the day that they were moving the Ogilvy headquarters from

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Speaker 1: one part of Manhattan to the other to Hell's Kitchen

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Speaker 1: to their new building. The last paragraph of the letter

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Speaker 1: contained an offer to David Ogilvy to become chairman of

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Speaker 1: the combined company, of the combined w PP and Ogilvy Company.

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Speaker 1: And of course David, when Ken Roman told him about

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Speaker 1: the Facts attack or the bear hugged letter, came out

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Speaker 1: with this odious little ship comment. Never met me and

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Speaker 1: we've never spoken a word together. So I asked to

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Speaker 1: see David and I met with him, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I mugged up on all of his books and went

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Speaker 1: to see him with our lawyer Phil Reason one or

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Speaker 1: two others. And I think I disarmed him a bit

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Speaker 1: by being able to quote significant chunts of his own

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Speaker 1: writing from him. But the interesting thing about the meeting

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Speaker 1: was I said to him during the course of the meeting,

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Speaker 1: after we're talking about fifteen or training minutes, I said,

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Speaker 1: have you seen our letter? And he said, yes, I've

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Speaker 1: seen the letter. And I said, have you seen the

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Speaker 1: last paragraph? And he said, what do you mean the

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Speaker 1: last paragraph, And I said, well, in that last paragraph

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Speaker 1: we suggested that you become chairman of the joint company.

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Speaker 1: And he had been sent the letter, but Ken Roman

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Speaker 1: or whoever, had removed the last paragraph from the letter,

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Speaker 1: so he was not aware of the fact that had

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Speaker 1: been offered the chairmanship. Now we knew there was friction

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Speaker 1: between Ken Roman and David, you know, purportedly they got

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Speaker 1: a well, but we knew from our our own intelligence

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Speaker 1: that that was not the case. And that was one

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Speaker 1: of the ways of unlocking that particular situation because David

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Speaker 1: was keen on becoming chairman and he helped me a

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Speaker 1: lot in those years as chairman of the company. That's

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Speaker 1: a great story and I'm not sure I've heard it

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Speaker 1: in that detail before. So let's jump to what did

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Speaker 1: you learn from your dad, who I know you admired

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Speaker 1: love so much and was a businessman who really pulled

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Speaker 1: it all together and built his career himself. Well, I

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Speaker 1: would say everything. I mean, some of the elements that

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Speaker 1: mentioned in relation Tom McCormack or the Sarchie brothers, or

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Speaker 1: indeed David Ogervie, I mean, were elements that he taught

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Speaker 1: me that he was a retailer. He ran seven hundred

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Speaker 1: fifty radio and electrical stores in the fifties and sixties.

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Speaker 1: This was a division of an industrial holding company called

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Speaker 1: Firth Evelandend a bit of stock in it, but really

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Speaker 1: didn't have an ownership interest, but he treated the businesses

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Speaker 1: though it was his own. He worked seven days a

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Speaker 1: week as a retailer. He would go to the office

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Speaker 1: on a Saturday. I mean he came from an Orthodox

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Speaker 1: Jewish family, but he used to travel on the Sabbath.

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Speaker 1: Would slightly lighted on the Saturday, but on the Sundays,

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Speaker 1: but a full day. He had to leave school when

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Speaker 1: he was thirteen because he was one of six family

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Speaker 1: of six, so you had to go out and earn

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Speaker 1: a living. Despite the fact that he left school at

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Speaker 1: such a tender age that he could recite the Talmud

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Speaker 1: and Shakespeare. When I say recite significant chunks, not one

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Speaker 1: sentence like friends, romans, countrymen, lend me your ears, but

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Speaker 1: I mean speeches and fantastic memory for detail. He was

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Speaker 1: also a very good musician. He was a violinist. He

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Speaker 1: got a scholarship to the Royal School in Music when

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Speaker 1: he was thirteen as a violinist, but couldn't take it

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Speaker 1: up because again he had to go off. So you know,

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Speaker 1: I'd go through all that because you know, it sort

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Speaker 1: of taught me a lot about the importance of education.

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Speaker 1: I was a spoilt child from a Jewish background in

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Speaker 1: the ghetto as I call it, at Northwest London. I

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Speaker 1: was born in Golders Green in a block of flat

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Speaker 1: school queens were re coort and we graduated through mill Hill,

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Speaker 1: which was also in north as lom so I would

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Speaker 1: say a traditional education at I started at Asmanian Prep School,

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Speaker 1: which was a Jewish primary school, then went to Goodwin

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Speaker 1: as we moved to mill Hill, and then on to

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Speaker 1: have an ASHES and then as you said, to Cambridge

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Speaker 1: and and Harvard said, my father really made it possible

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Speaker 1: for me to have an education that he didn't, and

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Speaker 1: he valued it extremely highly and laid a path out

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Speaker 1: for me. Often described as having come from a fairly

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Speaker 1: wealthy background, but I didn't really mind. My father really

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Speaker 1: really fought his way up and never had any of

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Speaker 1: the benefits that he gave me. And my relationship with

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Speaker 1: my father was very close. For example, when you and

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Speaker 1: I were tussling over j W two, I would talk

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Speaker 1: to my father probably four or five times a day

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Speaker 1: about what was going on. He knew nothing about the business,

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Speaker 1: but he knew about people. Maybe it's the fact that

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Speaker 1: he had been in a salesman a sales manager. It

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Speaker 1: dealt with people in a consumer industry selling radios and

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Speaker 1: televisions and fridges and whatever. Began to moraccle facility to

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Speaker 1: understand people their emotions, objectives, and likes and dislikes. Learned

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Speaker 1: a lot, but basically he was a counselor. You did

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Speaker 1: very well on the parent lottery. More on math and

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Speaker 1: magic right after this quick break. Welcome back to math

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Speaker 1: and magic. Now let's hear more from my conversation with

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Speaker 1: sir Martin Sorel. So let me jump a little bit

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Speaker 1: from your dad. What kind of influence or or what

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Speaker 1: did you learn from your competitors in the advertising business.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you've had legendary competitors, Maurice Levy, John Wren,

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Speaker 1: Michael Roth, etcetera. Well, how did that shape you? They

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Speaker 1: all had different characteristics. Michael Roth, you know picked up

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Speaker 1: it was I think a non executive director at IPG.

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Speaker 1: He'd been an insurance business beforehand. But you know he's

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Speaker 1: done a good job, particularly in the latter years, but

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Speaker 1: taken IPG from very difficult position to a much stronger position.

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Speaker 1: It's not one of the biggest of the Big six,

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Speaker 1: but they've done extremely well. And then Omnicom and John Wren.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he has a strategic bone in his body,

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Speaker 1: but he executes tactically extremely well. It's a bit more

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Speaker 1: of a black box. There's very much less disclosure on

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Speaker 1: Omnicom and the way that it works and others, and

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Speaker 1: I think that works to its detriment. But it's key

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Speaker 1: assets around BBDO, tv W, A, DDB amongst the finest,

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Speaker 1: if not the finest, creative assets, but maybe more of

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Speaker 1: the traditional variety. And they haven't adapted strategically as much

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Speaker 1: as perhaps they should have done. Publicists I think strategically

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Speaker 1: very strong. Mostly he took what was a very small agency,

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Speaker 1: the French agency, and you build the business phenomenally well

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Speaker 1: and strategically strong. And say, if Omnicom was more about

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Speaker 1: tactics and strategy, I think publicism was more about strategy

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Speaker 1: than tactics. So you answer to your question is you

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Speaker 1: know you learned different things from different people. Let's move

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Speaker 1: a little bit to probably the biggest disruption of your

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Speaker 1: life and mind, which was the emergence of the Internet.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly we have digital advertising, we have data. I mean

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Speaker 1: here you are today as four is focused on that

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Speaker 1: as the future. How did you see that initially and

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Speaker 1: what surprised you about the way it turned out? Well,

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Speaker 1: I I think there are two buckets here. I mean,

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Speaker 1: one is the geographical bucket. I think you know w

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Speaker 1: pople Sarchie model was about globalization. It goes back to

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Speaker 1: Ted Levitt in his article in the Halvard Business of

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Speaker 1: View in three I think it was in October of

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Speaker 1: eighty three where he laid out this theory that consumers

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Speaker 1: are going to consume everything in the same way everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I mean w PP was about the continued growth of globalization.

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Speaker 1: But the other part of it, the other bucket, it

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Speaker 1: was the technology bucket, and we started to see that

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Speaker 1: ninety ninety seven. I think I remember being interviewed by

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Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review and we're talking about the role of

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Speaker 1: the Internet around I think it was and we started

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Speaker 1: to build our business around technology. And when I left

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Speaker 1: him in two thousand and eighteen, you know, we it

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Speaker 1: was very difficult to calculate what the true digital share

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Speaker 1: of the business there was a w people. We we

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Speaker 1: calculated around. We sent an objective to grow it by

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Speaker 1: one percent a year. It's share of our business by

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Speaker 1: one percent a year. What am I surprised about? What

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Speaker 1: I'm surprised about the fact that we're now seeing a

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Speaker 1: little bit of the dismantling of globalization and this friction

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Speaker 1: with the U S and China and then on the web.

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Speaker 1: You know, you always underestimated the speed at which this

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Speaker 1: was going to change. And if I have regrets, it

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Speaker 1: would be that we didn't move further faster at w

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Speaker 1: VP to adapt to the technological development. We move fast

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Speaker 1: enough on the geographical side. You know, we had the

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Speaker 1: Chinese market fifty percent of the Indian market. But what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing now is the potential growth of two technology

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Speaker 1: systems and the friction around by way, the friction around

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Speaker 1: TikTok or emblematic of the desire of the the the

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Speaker 1: US to have its technological system and the desire of

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Speaker 1: the Chinese to have their technological system. And then we

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Speaker 1: may even have a third system. You know, you see

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Speaker 1: the index wanting to buy a bank, and you know

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Speaker 1: we may have a third Russian based system. So this

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Speaker 1: makes it much more complex from a geographic core point

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Speaker 1: of view and of course from a technological point of view.

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Speaker 1: So changing from analog to digital has been exceptionally difficult,

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Speaker 1: and you almost have I mean with the advertising hold

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Speaker 1: income is they're not fit for purpose anymore. The market

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Speaker 1: has changed that past their sell by dates. Coming back

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Speaker 1: to where we started our relationship, that was about consolidation,

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Speaker 1: I think there should be deconsolidation. Now let's jump to

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Speaker 1: a sport. You said you're focusing on the holy trinity

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Speaker 1: digital content, programmatic, ad delivery, and first party data. Tell

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Speaker 1: me exactly how you see that and how you're putting

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Speaker 1: it together. Well, we said, we've got four basic principles. Firstly,

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Speaker 1: we've focused as I said, this is a growth model.

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Speaker 1: We think that that what markets concentrate on and private

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Speaker 1: equity and everybody else's total shareholder return. It's true, which

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Speaker 1: which includes share price and and dividends, etcetera. But essentially

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Speaker 1: the driver of TSR now is like for like topline growth,

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Speaker 1: not to the Truman and margin. Margin is still important,

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Speaker 1: but it's not as balanced as it used to be,

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Speaker 1: and it's really more about top language. That's number one.

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Speaker 1: Number two is we have this holy trinity model that

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Speaker 1: first party data driving the creation of digital advertising, content

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Speaker 1: and programmatic. So that's the holy trinity. The third basic

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Speaker 1: operating principle is faster, better, cheaper agility d key corporate attribute,

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Speaker 1: So agility and then better means understanding the digital ecosystem

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Speaker 1: that is Google, Facebook, Amazon, tens and Alabama TikTok, Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Salesforce, Oracle, IBM,

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Speaker 1: s A P Pinterest, Twitter, Snap, LG, Samsung jall me

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Speaker 1: by the Heart Radio epic. Understanding all those companies and

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Speaker 1: understanding how the balance is changing between the platforms, between

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Speaker 1: the hardware companies and the software companies. And then the

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Speaker 1: last fourth principle is unitary structure an out spent work.

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Speaker 1: You have to bring together people into a fully integrated structure.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work to out people separated by announced You know,

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Speaker 1: we're interested and as for in people, not only people

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Speaker 1: want to sell out. We're interested in people who want

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Speaker 1: to buy in to the idea of building a new age,

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Speaker 1: new era advertising and marketing services model and a model

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00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: that disrupts the old. I mean there's a missionary zeal

430
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: here to disrupt the older. As I said, we think

431
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: that model has past itself. By date has to change.

432
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: Let's jump for a minute to you. You have strong opinions,

433
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: You've always since I've known you have a strong point

434
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 1: of view. Got me. Jeff Bezos famously talks about disagree

435
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: and commit. How does dessent fit into a company that

436
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: you manage? Well, I think you know today. You know,

437
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: every day we have a meeting for half an hour

438
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: and hour with a top eight people in our company,

439
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 1: which talk about people. We talk about our clients, we

440
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: talk about financis. Everybody expresses their view and then we

441
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: make on our minds about where we're going to go.

442
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: So you people do have different points of view. We're

443
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: talking yesterday. There were differences of you, but we hammered

444
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 1: it out and we came up with what we thought, well,

445
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 1: that was the best point of view given the fact

446
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 1: we're trying to build a unitary company. That makes us

447
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: very different to the holding company model, where it is

448
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: by its nature fragmented and diffuse. And so this is

449
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 1: really important in terms of that fourth principle of unitary structure,

450
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: so you can have descent and look good. People are

451
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 1: by nature difficult, average people by nature cooperative, you know,

452
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: because they co operate because they're average. Now that's a

453
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,680
Speaker 1: dangerous thing to say, because you know, average people sayn't

454
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 1: think it would would be good. They should be difficult.

455
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 1: But getting great people who are team players is very difficult.

456
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: Those are the exceptional people. And I think you know

457
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: as for we do have people who are team players,

458
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: and they are exceptional in that they are extremely good

459
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: at what they do. They are entrepreneurial and therefore are

460
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: by nature, going back to your question, full of dissent,

461
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: and they have different views about how to doing, but

462
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: they're coming together and they're bound together by this mission

463
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: to create the new, new age, new era model and

464
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: to disrupt the old. We have a point to prove

465
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: of and and the point we're trying to prove is

466
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: the model we're coming up with is a different one,

467
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: uniquely positioned for today's times. So you're dealing with first

468
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 1: party data's quite different than the third party data that's

469
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: out there. There are three big pools of first party

470
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: data from the big digital giants. Do you think the

471
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: government steps in to break up that control of that

472
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: first party data? Well, be careful what you wish for.

473
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: The GDPR legislation in Europe really has made those three Google, Facebook, Amazon,

474
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 1: and those ones you're referring even more powerful, and so

475
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 1: it hasn't really hindered them because the small medium sized

476
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: companies and not coming at it, you know, to try

477
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: and compete with them, as perhaps the regulators in Europe wanted.

478
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that increased regulation or splitting them up

479
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 1: is the answer. I think they have responded. I think

480
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: Facebook as a responded and Google has responded. Twitter has responded,

481
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: Amazon responded. As they've crossed a trillion dollars in terms

482
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,679
Speaker 1: of market cap, they obviously attract a lot of regulatory

483
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,479
Speaker 1: attention and with power comes responsibility. For example, Facebook, they

484
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: will band political advertising a little before the election, but

485
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: they've hired thirty five thousand people to monitor content. They've

486
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: changed the algorithms, They've got rid of some of the

487
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 1: the extreme groups, the boogleoo groups and things like that,

488
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: so they have may change. Google band political advertising. Twitter

489
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: have done the same, so they are responding. Some people

490
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: would say not enough. I don't think boycotts get you

491
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,479
Speaker 1: very far. I think the best way to deal with

492
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: situations like this is like the w done all the

493
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: ana have done just recently in relation to hate speech,

494
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: is engaged with the platforms effectively. What you do is

495
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: you firmly say what you think you need and work

496
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: with them. And the other thing I think that is

497
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: really important is that these platforms are the engines of

498
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship in the West. It's six of the AD revenues

499
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: of Google and Facebook and Amazon come from small and

500
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: mean sized businesses. And so be careful what you wish for.

501
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm not wishing, I know you generate you you'd be

502
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: careful because these these companies are generating opportunities for smaller

503
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: sized businesses, which, as Jack mar says, is the engine

504
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: room of the economy and creates a lot of unemployment.

505
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit of just a second

506
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: before we finish up in IBC, We're on a podcast.

507
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask about podcasting. You know, it was

508
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: video for so long, it's been searched, it's been social,

509
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: and suddenly audio has its moment and podcasting, I mean,

510
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: and our company all the way AD revenues down. We

511
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: announced in second quarter are AD revenue and podcasting was

512
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,440
Speaker 1: of a hundred percent. We're racing quickly to build this.

513
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: What do you think of podcasts? Well, I think another

514
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: good way of our clients developing their media programming, if

515
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: you like, and another good way to engage with consumers.

516
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: Now whether it becomes mainstream or not is another question.

517
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: It's a bit like influencer marketing, you know, in terms

518
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: of content, I see influencers being a subset of content

519
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: and the development and creation of content. So I think important,

520
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: but not mainstream necessarily, which is probably not what you

521
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: wanted to hear. But no, no, no, no, I'm look,

522
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: I'm interested in your opinion, and it is. We're on

523
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: the it's probably the only thing right now we're on

524
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: the front end of And it reminds me back at

525
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: the days I went to a o L in the

526
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: mid nineties and I was at Century twenty one real

527
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: estate briefly, and I remember someone who is very smart said,

528
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: I know why they want you, but I can't imagine

529
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: why you want to leave Century twenty one for a

530
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: O L. And that's what That's how little people thought

531
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: of the future of the Internet. Fortunately things turned out differently. Hey,

532
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: we end each episode by focusing on math and magic,

533
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: the analytics and the creative sides of marketing, and you

534
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 1: had this unique perspective. Usually ask people about people who

535
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: are analytical or creative in your case, I want to

536
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: ask you about past or present. If you had to

537
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: pick an agency that you thought was the best math

538
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: agency all about analytics, which one would you give that to? Well,

539
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: I had to say Mighty Hive okay, which is part

540
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: of this four? Okay? That just aboard, and I'd say

541
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: I would say Essence would be the one that I

542
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: know came back on the math side of it, I

543
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: would say Essence and Mighty Hive okay. So let's flip

544
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: to the other side. What's the greatest creative agency? The

545
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: magic I think SARCH is in its early days obviously

546
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 1: media amongst today, which is the other part of the

547
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: content part of S four. But if I went back

548
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: in a history, I think SARCH is from when I

549
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: was there from seventies seven, and before I was there,

550
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: it was probably even better. But you know when I

551
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: was there and I knew it well. From seventy seven

552
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: through to stand Sir Martin, this has been fantastic. You

553
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: have wonderful stories, and you're continuing to build your legacy

554
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: and continuing to stay at the forefront of what's going on.

555
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, and thanks for thank you for

556
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: I loved it. Great fun and good good to catch

557
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: up with you again. Well we were caught up over

558
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: the years, but we go back to eighty seven seven

559
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: seven that that seems like yesterday to me, But I

560
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: guess it was a woman. I can still see you

561
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: with stip Si Sheinberg and telling me I wasn't elected.

562
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: That's very funny. Good luck. By the way, everything new.

563
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: Here are a few things I've picked up in my

564
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: conversation with Sir Martin. One, pay close attention to your adversaries.

565
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: As Sir Martin says, you can learn something valuable from

566
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: every encounter, even with your competitors. By paying close attention

567
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: to rivals, like David Ogilvie, he learned that there can

568
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: be various strategies that lead to a successful company. To

569
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: dissent is an important tool. There's a difference between what

570
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Sir Martin refers to as average people who stick to

571
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: the status quo and team players who are willing to

572
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: disagree to aid in company growth. Although team players might

573
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: be difficult, they're more successful because their way of thinking

574
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: is naturally entrepreneurial. Three. Nothing is impossible. When asked what

575
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: S four is capable of Sir Martin hesitates to answer

576
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: because he doesn't want to hinder its potential. He picked

577
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: up this philosophy from the Sacchi Brothers, whose key to

578
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: success wasn't the size of their accounts, but they're limitless ideas.

579
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode.

580
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a

581
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. This show is hosted by

582
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sue Schillinger for booking and

583
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat. Nikki

584
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: Etre for pulling research bill plaques, and Michael Asar for

585
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: their recording help, our editor, Ryan Murdoch, and of course

586
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and everyone who helped

587
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 1: bring this show to your ears. Until next time,