WEBVTT - Does Everything Happen for a Reason? 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:32.756 Pushkin. The next day, when I was just very casually 0:00:32.836 --> 0:00:36.556 in my office, just like prepping for a lecture, when 0:00:36.556 --> 0:00:39.396 I got a phone call in my office that I 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:41.196 had stage four cancer and then I was going to 0:00:41.276 --> 0:00:44.516 have to walk from my office to the hospital to 0:00:44.596 --> 0:00:48.916 check myself in for an emergency procedure and who knows what, 0:00:49.156 --> 0:00:52.796 Like just it felt. I don't think I'll ever experience 0:00:52.876 --> 0:00:57.876 time moving quite so slowly, because it was the horror 0:00:57.916 --> 0:01:02.276 of it. It was like the my life is whatever, 0:01:02.356 --> 0:01:05.116 this is, it's it's I could feel it go, you know, 0:01:05.356 --> 0:01:09.476 like it's all it's all gone now. That's Cape Bowler, 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:13.556 a professor of Christianity at Duke's Divinity School, describing the 0:01:13.596 --> 0:01:16.436 moment she found out she had stage four colon cancer 0:01:16.556 --> 0:01:20.676 at age thirty five. Kate was shocked not only by 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:23.636 the diagnosis, but by her reaction to it and what 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:27.516 it revealed to her about her faith. I spent years 0:01:28.156 --> 0:01:30.876 studying people who believe that they deserve what they get, 0:01:31.196 --> 0:01:34.396 and I never once imagine myself to be that kind 0:01:34.396 --> 0:01:37.196 of person, because you know, I'm part of this faith 0:01:37.236 --> 0:01:40.356 tradition which would never use the word deserve. And then 0:01:40.396 --> 0:01:43.476 when I could hear myself saying, but aren't I kind 0:01:43.516 --> 0:01:46.716 of a good person? It was like that bit was 0:01:46.796 --> 0:01:51.556 so deeply humbling. That felt like like I like the 0:01:51.636 --> 0:01:53.876 shirt got turned inside out and I could just see 0:01:53.916 --> 0:01:58.036 all the seams of everything and I realized, like, oh, things, 0:01:58.836 --> 0:02:04.396 things come apart. On today's episode, a religious scholar re 0:02:04.556 --> 0:02:08.236 examines her own faith as she reckons with a cancer diagnosis. 0:02:10.356 --> 0:02:13.236 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:15.716 a show about who we are and who we become 0:02:15.916 --> 0:02:30.756 in the face of a big change. Kate Bohler grew 0:02:30.836 --> 0:02:33.876 up in a Christian family of Mennonites and Manitoba, Canada. 0:02:34.476 --> 0:02:37.436 She's always had a strong Christian faith, which for her 0:02:37.476 --> 0:02:40.356 has included the belief that everything happens for a reason. 0:02:41.156 --> 0:02:43.996 But as a religious scholar, Kate studied a different branch 0:02:44.036 --> 0:02:48.516 of Christianity called the Prosperity Gospel, known for its megachurches 0:02:48.556 --> 0:02:52.116 and televangelist preachers like Jim and Tammy, Faye Baker, and 0:02:52.236 --> 0:02:56.236 Joel Osteen. The Prosperity Gospel preaches that if you pray 0:02:56.316 --> 0:02:59.076 hard enough and your faith in God is strong, you 0:02:59.196 --> 0:03:02.716 deserve health, wealth, and happiness and will be rewarded with 0:03:02.756 --> 0:03:06.876 those things during your life here on earth. Kate never 0:03:06.916 --> 0:03:10.276 believed in this idea of people deserving things, or so 0:03:10.356 --> 0:03:14.076 she thought, until her cancer diagnosis revealed to her that 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:16.876 she had been buying into her own kind of prosperity 0:03:16.916 --> 0:03:21.396 gospel all along. And this realization surprised Kate and led 0:03:21.396 --> 0:03:24.516 her to re examine not only this belief, but also 0:03:24.596 --> 0:03:27.716 some of her more foundational beliefs, like whether everything really 0:03:27.796 --> 0:03:31.916 does happen for a reason. Kate and I started off 0:03:31.916 --> 0:03:35.276 our conversation by talking about the prosperity Gospel, which had 0:03:35.316 --> 0:03:38.236 been the focus of her scholarly research for over a decade, 0:03:38.916 --> 0:03:41.636 to set up beliefs about the power of the mind 0:03:41.996 --> 0:03:44.116 to change your life, that if you have the right 0:03:44.156 --> 0:03:46.916 kind of positive words and the right kind of mental attitude, 0:03:47.356 --> 0:03:51.836 that you can bring health and wealth and overall happiness 0:03:52.316 --> 0:03:55.756 like during your life here on earth. And that's always 0:03:55.756 --> 0:03:59.956 the kind of like caveat, because you know, Christianity typically 0:04:00.196 --> 0:04:03.036 has a kind of asterix beside it that says, yes, 0:04:03.076 --> 0:04:05.956 God is good, Yes God is loving, Yes God wants 0:04:05.956 --> 0:04:09.396 wholeness and love for you. But you may not to 0:04:09.396 --> 0:04:11.876 see all of your hopes come to fruition that all 0:04:11.956 --> 0:04:15.316 good things then get kind of deferred to an afterlife. 0:04:15.596 --> 0:04:20.556 But the prosperity Gospel has what we call an overrealized 0:04:20.636 --> 0:04:23.716 sense that all things will happen now for us who believe. 0:04:24.436 --> 0:04:28.996 So it's a really it's an incredibly confident set of 0:04:29.076 --> 0:04:32.996 beliefs that says that you don't need to suffer, you 0:04:32.996 --> 0:04:36.116 don't even need to be lucky, because there will always 0:04:36.156 --> 0:04:37.996 be a way for you to figure out how to 0:04:38.076 --> 0:04:41.156 land on your feet. And what do you think drew 0:04:41.796 --> 0:04:45.276 you to that septic matter? I was really looking around 0:04:45.316 --> 0:04:47.636 for kind of an idea to fall in love with, 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:50.556 and I didn't think though that I would mostly just 0:04:50.596 --> 0:04:53.756 pick something because it made me unbelievably angry. But I 0:04:53.836 --> 0:04:56.836 was a huge rage fast when I had my first 0:04:56.916 --> 0:05:00.676 encounter with the prosperity Gospel. I thought, who did this 0:05:00.756 --> 0:05:04.356 to us? Why are Canadians? Because I grew up in Canada, 0:05:04.396 --> 0:05:07.036 and I was like, why are Canadians into this? And 0:05:07.116 --> 0:05:11.076 I was honestly kind of a about it. I was condescending, 0:05:11.196 --> 0:05:13.796 treating it kind of a like a car accident that 0:05:13.916 --> 0:05:16.316 I needed to really uncover and explore. It would take 0:05:16.316 --> 0:05:18.356 me a number of years even just to kind of 0:05:18.356 --> 0:05:21.156 settle into a sense that it was like not just 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:24.116 a heresy, like a set of incorrect beliefs, but like 0:05:24.116 --> 0:05:27.716 a worldview that I wanted to understand. So some of 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:31.276 your your curiosity or interest in diving into this was 0:05:31.316 --> 0:05:33.876 around really just calling bullshit on it. Is that is 0:05:33.876 --> 0:05:37.876 that actually was okay? So you end up writing this 0:05:37.916 --> 0:05:42.196 book ironically called Blessed, which which chronicles the entire history 0:05:42.236 --> 0:05:47.476 of the Prosperity Gospel. It seems like Kate Bowler's life 0:05:47.556 --> 0:05:50.156 is also feeling pretty blessed, right. The lots of things 0:05:50.196 --> 0:05:53.436 are falling into place. You get your dream job at 0:05:53.516 --> 0:05:58.996 Duke's Divinity School, and after years of infertility, you and 0:05:59.036 --> 0:06:02.916 your husband Toven, have this beautiful baby boy named Zach. 0:06:03.156 --> 0:06:07.636 Right yea, And yeah, first, I still resonate with those 0:06:07.676 --> 0:06:10.236 moments in life where you're like, and got it and 0:06:10.276 --> 0:06:11.996 you almost want to, like you want to catch it 0:06:11.996 --> 0:06:14.116 in your hands and put it into a bottle like 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:16.796 no one can ever touch it. Yeah, You're like, I 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:19.996 stuck the landing like there was Yeah, you can feel 0:06:19.996 --> 0:06:25.116 yourself just hit it. And I I couldn't believe. I 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:27.516 couldn't believe that it all lined up like I was 0:06:27.596 --> 0:06:32.076 just I had this gorgeous university job after having you know, 0:06:32.156 --> 0:06:34.996 grown up a shadow of you know, it always looked 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:38.596 like the university manitobe was like constantly financing Stalinist architecture. 0:06:38.716 --> 0:06:40.996 Like when my parents on a campus, they were like, 0:06:41.076 --> 0:06:43.836 if you ever leave this place, I will murder you. 0:06:44.276 --> 0:06:48.836 Like I felt so lucky to be in this gorgeous 0:06:48.876 --> 0:06:54.196 place and finally have this smushy little you know baby 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:59.756 that smells like cookies all the time. And I really thought, 0:07:00.076 --> 0:07:02.356 then this this is my life, Like I could see 0:07:02.356 --> 0:07:05.756 it stretch out. I was gonna write all these books. 0:07:06.076 --> 0:07:10.236 I was gonna have an office with like gargoyle bookends, 0:07:10.396 --> 0:07:12.716 which I had a lot of strong feelings about, Like 0:07:12.756 --> 0:07:15.516 I was gonna have all these grateful graduate students, Like 0:07:15.876 --> 0:07:19.556 this was the site of my life. And I didn't 0:07:19.636 --> 0:07:22.516 mean to be as arrogant as that sounds, but like 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:26.996 I was like really locked into this beautiful dream and 0:07:26.796 --> 0:07:29.836 it like felt so good to me. I guess I 0:07:30.036 --> 0:07:33.796 for so long I had been paying into this imagined 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:38.636 future and I all of it, all the like grind 0:07:38.716 --> 0:07:40.716 of it the and now you just have to write 0:07:40.756 --> 0:07:43.356 six hundred words and they'd better be footnoted properly. Like 0:07:43.396 --> 0:07:48.676 all the deferring felt like I was like this accountant 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:50.796 and I was just gonna. I was having this. I 0:07:50.796 --> 0:07:53.876 would like add it all up, and then I would 0:07:53.916 --> 0:07:57.556 hit this moment and like congratulations me, Like all a 0:07:57.636 --> 0:08:00.156 great math. Right, you go to the store, you give 0:08:00.196 --> 0:08:02.716 them your voucher, and you're like, okay, here it is. 0:08:02.956 --> 0:08:07.276 I'm raticularly, yeah, yeah, I'm put in I put in 0:08:07.356 --> 0:08:11.436 all that work. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering if you can 0:08:11.476 --> 0:08:15.116 take me back to what it was like at age 0:08:15.156 --> 0:08:19.156 thirty five when your life just turns completely upside down. 0:08:20.436 --> 0:08:25.276 I started getting really severe stomach pains and I immediately 0:08:25.316 --> 0:08:27.516 went to my doctor and I said, this seems really 0:08:27.676 --> 0:08:31.316 kind of very out of proportion. And then she said, well, 0:08:32.076 --> 0:08:34.116 you know you're young. I don't think it's that much, 0:08:34.476 --> 0:08:36.716 but let me let me prefer you to the specialist. 0:08:36.836 --> 0:08:41.276 And I got bounced around between specialists with an increasing 0:08:41.316 --> 0:08:44.636 sense of panic, like I was chugging peptobismal. I was 0:08:44.956 --> 0:08:49.356 doubled over with pain, and I had such an intense 0:08:50.156 --> 0:08:53.156 grin and Barrett, it never really occurred to me that 0:08:53.276 --> 0:08:55.996 I could like press the emergency button, you know, that 0:08:56.076 --> 0:08:58.716 I was allowed to lose it because I was so 0:08:58.756 --> 0:09:02.196 good at trying. So when I finally was supposed to 0:09:02.276 --> 0:09:04.436 get a surgery for what they thought was like a 0:09:04.476 --> 0:09:08.036 faulty gall bladder and then they said, well, the tests 0:09:08.076 --> 0:09:11.156 don't show quite enough to warrant that kind of surgery, 0:09:11.236 --> 0:09:14.516 I just fucking lost it. I just I couldn't handle 0:09:15.076 --> 0:09:20.636 the boredom on the surgeon's face and the panic that 0:09:20.716 --> 0:09:23.356 I was experiencing that no one was it was it 0:09:23.396 --> 0:09:24.956 was half a year in that no one was going 0:09:24.996 --> 0:09:29.916 to take me seriously, and so I I just yelled 0:09:30.156 --> 0:09:33.836 in a very on Canadian way, and I was like, 0:09:33.916 --> 0:09:35.796 You're going to give me a scan and I'm not leaving, 0:09:35.876 --> 0:09:38.596 Like I'm just not leaving until you figure out something 0:09:38.636 --> 0:09:43.076 else for me. And and I really thought it was 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:47.036 just going to be like an inconvenience. So the next day, 0:09:47.116 --> 0:09:49.836 when I was just very casually in my office, just 0:09:49.916 --> 0:09:53.116 like prepping for a lecture, when I got a phone 0:09:53.156 --> 0:09:56.476 call in my office that I had stage four cancer 0:09:56.636 --> 0:09:58.516 and then I was going to have to walk from 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:02.276 my office to the hospital to check myself in for 0:10:02.556 --> 0:10:05.956 an emergency procedure and who knows what, Like just it 0:10:06.076 --> 0:10:09.956 felt I don't think I'll ever experience time moving quite 0:10:09.996 --> 0:10:14.676 so slowly because it was the horror of it. It 0:10:14.756 --> 0:10:18.996 was like the my life is whatever, this is, it's 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:21.756 it's I could feel it go, you know, like it's 0:10:21.796 --> 0:10:26.636 all it's all gone now. I uh, I didn't realize 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:30.276 that life can turn so quickly and that like whatever 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:34.276 plans you have like don't count. So all I said was, um, 0:10:35.596 --> 0:10:37.876 but I have a son. Like I was arguing with her, 0:10:38.076 --> 0:10:41.316 you know, because she sounded so bored. And when I 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:44.436 met her after the surgery to just check on some staples, 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:49.236 she said, Uh, how are you? And I said, um, actually, 0:10:49.276 --> 0:10:52.196 it's been really hard, and she said, well, the sooner 0:10:52.236 --> 0:10:53.836 you get used to the idea of dying, the better. 0:10:55.356 --> 0:10:59.436 And that was the That was the strange brutality of 0:10:59.476 --> 0:11:02.676 this like threshold moment, that like there was a before 0:11:02.876 --> 0:11:04.956 and an after in my life and that I was 0:11:04.996 --> 0:11:06.516 going to have to figure out how to live in 0:11:06.556 --> 0:11:11.436 the after. But I just genuinely didn't know how Hey, 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:17.436 I'm I'm trying to trying to understand in that moment 0:11:19.356 --> 0:11:23.916 how long it took for the news to really penetrate, 0:11:24.156 --> 0:11:29.156 because when you have that kind of whiplash, like yeah, 0:11:29.236 --> 0:11:32.116 what was that? I mean it felt honestly, it felt 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:36.756 immediate to me. It felt like it was my job 0:11:37.756 --> 0:11:40.396 to learn to let go as fast as I could. 0:11:41.356 --> 0:11:43.036 But I didn't know what I was letting go of. 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:46.276 Like the first thing you have to let go of 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:51.236 is your body. Like I walk into the hospital, I 0:11:51.316 --> 0:11:55.116 get admitted, I have to take off my dress, and 0:11:55.196 --> 0:11:57.916 it was the dress that I loved to lecture in, 0:11:58.076 --> 0:12:00.036 and I remember looking at it and thinking, I don't 0:12:00.036 --> 0:12:03.716 know if I'll ever get to wear this again. And 0:12:03.716 --> 0:12:06.156 and you put on a gown and they will shave 0:12:06.196 --> 0:12:09.676 you and paint you, and you'll feel though the heaviness 0:12:09.676 --> 0:12:12.876 of your limbs when they strap you down, and you'll 0:12:12.916 --> 0:12:15.116 be awake for so much of it that you have 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:18.516 to tell yourself like it is my job to let go, 0:12:19.316 --> 0:12:22.716 but not if it makes any sense. Like I couldn't 0:12:22.716 --> 0:12:24.876 picture not going home. When do I get to go home. 0:12:24.996 --> 0:12:27.036 I couldn't picture not being able to pick up my 0:12:27.076 --> 0:12:29.556 son because I was going to wake up with all 0:12:29.596 --> 0:12:33.876 these incisions. And then when I woke up there was 0:12:35.276 --> 0:12:38.756 I just remember how sad everyone was. And then a 0:12:38.956 --> 0:12:42.636 night when I was by myself and I realized it 0:12:42.676 --> 0:12:45.396 was the first time I'd been alone with a doctor 0:12:45.396 --> 0:12:47.836 where I could just ask questions. And so that's when 0:12:47.836 --> 0:12:50.596 I said, m hey, like not to bug you or anything, 0:12:50.716 --> 0:12:53.076 but like nobody's told me if I'm going to live, 0:12:53.876 --> 0:12:56.796 and to be honest, I don't totally understand like where 0:12:56.836 --> 0:13:00.356 all the cancer was or went. He was like, well, 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:04.316 I can only tell you by recounting the statistical average 0:13:04.316 --> 0:13:06.396 of someone with your diagnosis. And he said, well that 0:13:07.196 --> 0:13:11.596 like survival amounts to fourteen a fourteen percent chance of survival, 0:13:12.236 --> 0:13:18.076 and that survival in the two years. Um, So I 0:13:18.116 --> 0:13:21.876 want to I want to dig into what your first 0:13:21.876 --> 0:13:25.316 reaction to this news was in terms of like zooming 0:13:25.316 --> 0:13:27.476 out at the thirty thout ye, because I've read that 0:13:27.556 --> 0:13:30.396 you you know, you were like that I'm I'm like special, 0:13:30.436 --> 0:13:33.076 and like, don't I had a kind of a good person. Yeah, 0:13:33.116 --> 0:13:36.436 there's yeah, that's so funny. That's great because there was 0:13:36.476 --> 0:13:39.956 like a weird double reaction. Holy crap, of course it's 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:44.596 me and this other version that was like the middle 0:13:44.636 --> 0:13:47.396 class hustler that was like, hadn't I worked really hard? 0:13:47.796 --> 0:13:51.196 Aren't I kind of a like a reasonably nice, decent 0:13:51.276 --> 0:13:53.876 person who And then I wanted so much to say, 0:13:53.916 --> 0:13:58.716 like deserve like who deserves to have this beautiful life? 0:13:58.916 --> 0:14:01.636 And hadn't I earned it somehow? And then I was 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:06.076 back to that like the math, like I made everything 0:14:06.116 --> 0:14:09.716 add up and now and now you're telling me that, 0:14:09.836 --> 0:14:13.076 like I like, I'm going to be the one that 0:14:13.116 --> 0:14:23.116 doesn't make it. I felt really outwaged. And it's just 0:14:23.156 --> 0:14:25.396 so funny, because you know, I'm part of this faith 0:14:25.436 --> 0:14:28.396 tradition which would never use the word deserve. I'm not 0:14:28.436 --> 0:14:30.756 even American. And I realized, like I had such a 0:14:30.876 --> 0:14:35.036 deeply American belief that my individual effort, my hustle and 0:14:35.156 --> 0:14:39.996 hard work, my sort of inherent deservedness in finding that 0:14:40.076 --> 0:14:44.716 relationship between hard work and success, that I didn't even 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:48.036 leave room for the possibility that you can do all 0:14:48.036 --> 0:14:52.996 the right things and and that and that, and that 0:14:53.036 --> 0:14:57.836 you can be deeply unlucky. And I spent years studying 0:14:57.876 --> 0:15:00.516 people who believe that they deserve what they get, and 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:03.996 I never once imagine myself to be that kind of person. 0:15:04.636 --> 0:15:07.756 And then when I could hear myself saying, but aren't 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:10.196 I kind of a good person? Like do you do 0:15:10.276 --> 0:15:13.036 you see this personality in motion? I am working hard? 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:18.596 I just like it was it was like that that 0:15:18.636 --> 0:15:23.316 bit was so deeply humbling that felt like like I 0:15:23.636 --> 0:15:25.956 like the shirt got turned inside out and I could 0:15:25.956 --> 0:15:30.396 just see all the seams of everything, and I realized, like, oh, things, 0:15:31.196 --> 0:15:36.036 things come apart. Say more about that. Yeah, I guess 0:15:36.076 --> 0:15:42.396 I'm one of the strangest parts about being lucky. I 0:15:42.396 --> 0:15:45.676 suppose not knowing that you're lucky, believing that every one 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:47.836 of your actions are supposed to add up to more 0:15:47.876 --> 0:15:51.916 and more and more is that um is that you 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:55.076 begin to feel like you've earned your life, deserved your life, 0:15:55.556 --> 0:15:58.356 that you don't even need luck, like you bulldoze a path. 0:15:58.756 --> 0:16:03.036 And over the years I have steadily built up a 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:05.756 belief system that said that I am the solution to 0:16:05.796 --> 0:16:08.236 every problem. I'm the center that holds, I'm the thing 0:16:08.276 --> 0:16:12.916 that acts. I will make my own destiny, and and 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:16.796 that if I can't, then you know, in this culture 0:16:16.836 --> 0:16:19.796 that always says, you know, there's there's no setbacks, there's 0:16:19.796 --> 0:16:22.676 just set ups. You know, people are always like closing doors, 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:26.396 opening windows, that all of these kind of cultural cliches 0:16:26.396 --> 0:16:29.996 and aphorisms are there too. Explain to me that pain 0:16:30.156 --> 0:16:33.436 was just like a like a tripping hazard or a lesson, 0:16:34.196 --> 0:16:36.316 and that it was my job to learn the lesson 0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:39.396 in order to overcome, but that there was never a 0:16:39.516 --> 0:16:42.956 version in which I was going to lose or else. 0:16:43.756 --> 0:16:46.396 If you lose, then you're a loser, if you fail 0:16:46.516 --> 0:16:48.996 to make that dream come true, like you really only 0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:52.476 have yourself to blame, and that feeling set in really quickly. 0:16:57.116 --> 0:16:59.436 We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:15.316 I'm talking with Kate Bohler, a religious scholar at Duke University. 0:17:15.956 --> 0:17:18.516 She was thirty five years old when doctors told Kate 0:17:18.636 --> 0:17:21.636 she had staged four colon cancer and that her chance 0:17:21.716 --> 0:17:25.956 of survival was just fourteen percent. But then doctors told 0:17:26.036 --> 0:17:28.676 Kate she may or may not qualify for some novel 0:17:28.716 --> 0:17:34.596 immunotherapies that could significantly increase her chance of survival. They said, 0:17:34.756 --> 0:17:37.756 I might be part of the ninety percent of people 0:17:37.796 --> 0:17:41.276 who just received chemotherapy and with a diagnosis like mine 0:17:41.436 --> 0:17:45.476 would likely die within six months, or part of a 0:17:45.516 --> 0:17:49.716 seven percent whose cancer would multiply unabated and there would 0:17:49.716 --> 0:17:53.516 be no point in doing treatment anyway, Or that I 0:17:53.596 --> 0:17:58.316 might be part of a three percent chance whose particular 0:17:58.396 --> 0:18:01.756 condition would open me up to being able to try 0:18:01.756 --> 0:18:05.956 some of these novel immunotherapies that were being tested. So I, 0:18:06.396 --> 0:18:09.436 just because I am in the humanities, I was like, oh, okay, 0:18:09.476 --> 0:18:13.476 so I could probably die, I could absolutely die, or 0:18:13.516 --> 0:18:15.716 I could have magic cancer. And he was like, yeah, 0:18:15.716 --> 0:18:19.476 pretty much, so awesome great. So when I got like 0:18:19.476 --> 0:18:22.356 a phone call a couple of weeks later that just said, 0:18:22.916 --> 0:18:26.236 turns out you have the magic cancer, I was so. 0:18:26.996 --> 0:18:31.716 I was so thrilled because even though even though most 0:18:31.716 --> 0:18:34.756 of the people who were in that cohort wouldn't respond 0:18:34.916 --> 0:18:39.316 to the immunotherapy, I might. I might, And so it 0:18:39.396 --> 0:18:41.756 was like the very first chance that there might be 0:18:42.756 --> 0:18:46.796 like a future for me. Yeah. I want to know 0:18:46.876 --> 0:18:51.316 whether you get this devastating cancer diagnosis and all of 0:18:51.356 --> 0:18:53.956 a sudden, this disbelief you've had along, which is you know, 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:56.396 I'm special, I'm Kate, I'm a good person, I'm nice 0:18:56.436 --> 0:19:01.356 to people, starts to dissipate, but then you get this 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:03.836 news that you do have the magic cancer, which you 0:19:03.836 --> 0:19:07.796 could imagine could seduce you back into this older way 0:19:07.796 --> 0:19:11.076 of thinking. Yeah, And I think I felt like I 0:19:11.116 --> 0:19:15.596 was sometimes surrounded by that because people wanted to, you know, 0:19:15.676 --> 0:19:19.516 because the people who love you are delusional, and they 0:19:19.556 --> 0:19:22.436 start and we all start lying. You know, we're like, well, 0:19:22.516 --> 0:19:24.396 you know, it's going to be a miracle and God's 0:19:24.436 --> 0:19:26.316 going to find a way or science is going to 0:19:26.356 --> 0:19:29.716 find a way. Like we have all these hyper causalities 0:19:29.756 --> 0:19:32.196 that we then assume that because I am a somehow 0:19:32.556 --> 0:19:34.876 special person and they just mean, you know, because they 0:19:34.876 --> 0:19:38.636 love me, and my death would be unthinkable. My death 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:41.676 would end a world, right, it's just the way the 0:19:41.716 --> 0:19:45.716 way we love. And so people really wanted to believe 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:48.036 that I was going to be part of this you 0:19:48.116 --> 0:19:52.676 have to live and I immediately I didn't want to 0:19:52.716 --> 0:19:56.716 do it. I didn't want to do it. And by 0:19:56.756 --> 0:19:58.796 not wanting to do it, what you mean is you 0:19:58.836 --> 0:20:00.596 didn't want to revert back into the old way of 0:20:00.596 --> 0:20:03.516 thinking that, yeah, I am special and I am exceptional, 0:20:03.556 --> 0:20:06.396 and I deserve what I put in, what I've put 0:20:06.436 --> 0:20:10.756 into this life. Yeah, And I felt like I'd learned 0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:15.876 something I didn't want to unlearn. And my like procarity, 0:20:17.436 --> 0:20:21.916 the feeling of like teetering, I just felt like it 0:20:22.036 --> 0:20:25.396 was letting me see other things I hadn't seen before. 0:20:25.716 --> 0:20:29.236 And I don't know, I know it sounds like strange, 0:20:29.436 --> 0:20:31.476 at least it is to me, But like I found 0:20:31.476 --> 0:20:33.316 myself saying stuff like I don't want to go back, 0:20:33.756 --> 0:20:35.396 and of course, like I wanted to go back. I 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:37.836 would have loved to go back to like a healthy, 0:20:37.996 --> 0:20:41.156 delusional person I was before. But like I felt like, 0:20:42.156 --> 0:20:45.236 knowing then that the world can come undone, it like 0:20:45.316 --> 0:20:48.036 opened up in me a capacity to love other people 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:50.676 in their procarity that I didn't I didn't know before. 0:20:50.716 --> 0:20:55.676 And I felt like the strange, shimmery kind of matrix 0:20:55.716 --> 0:20:57.836 feeling you get when you feel the truth of something, 0:20:58.236 --> 0:21:04.356 And that felt so precious, so fucking precious that like that, 0:21:04.516 --> 0:21:06.436 After that, I was more just trying to find the 0:21:06.516 --> 0:21:09.796 right relationship to hope without return learning to the like 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:13.876 that I deserve my life. You know, you talk about 0:21:13.956 --> 0:21:16.916 how in that moment there's this there's this tension right 0:21:17.036 --> 0:21:20.916 of you both want to to reoccupy the delusional state 0:21:20.956 --> 0:21:24.116 of mind because what a safe and joyful place to occupy, 0:21:24.236 --> 0:21:26.556 right to. But on the other hand, you do feel 0:21:26.596 --> 0:21:29.516 like confronting the truth or what you believe to be 0:21:29.516 --> 0:21:32.956 the truth, but I believe to be the truth allows 0:21:32.996 --> 0:21:35.236 you to create a kind of empathy for others in 0:21:35.276 --> 0:21:37.396 their pain, in their suffering that you might not have 0:21:37.436 --> 0:21:39.916 been able to I want to know whether there was also, 0:21:40.396 --> 0:21:42.596 in that moment or since then, whether you felt that 0:21:42.636 --> 0:21:46.756 there was also an advantage to you of not rebuying 0:21:46.796 --> 0:21:50.716 that lie. Yeah. Yeah, I mean sometimes I just felt 0:21:50.716 --> 0:21:53.156 like I can't afford to hope right now, Like I mean, 0:21:53.196 --> 0:21:55.116 I can't afford to take on a certainty that I'd 0:21:55.116 --> 0:21:58.996 have to take back. I do notice that people who've 0:21:58.996 --> 0:22:02.716 really been through something are very frequently very careful in 0:22:02.756 --> 0:22:05.876 the way that we both tell a story and then 0:22:06.076 --> 0:22:07.876 as if we don't want to say things that have 0:22:07.956 --> 0:22:15.516 to be unsaid. So ah, yeah, someone once called it 0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:19.036 like um the fellowship of the afflicted. Always thought that 0:22:19.156 --> 0:22:22.036 was such like a lovely way of because you can 0:22:22.116 --> 0:22:25.636 feel that badge of belonging. Sometimes when we're not sloppy 0:22:25.716 --> 0:22:28.396 with our language, we don't hope for things. We don't 0:22:28.436 --> 0:22:32.236 hope for everything we are. Our hopes are like precious 0:22:32.236 --> 0:22:34.556 little gems and we have them we hold on tight, 0:22:34.636 --> 0:22:39.876 but we don't hope for everything. So so it almost 0:22:39.876 --> 0:22:43.436 felt like self protective instinct then in that moment to think, look, 0:22:43.476 --> 0:22:46.516 I if I buy into this again, well, then in 0:22:46.596 --> 0:22:49.196 four weeks if I find out the immunotherapy doesn't work 0:22:49.236 --> 0:22:50.916 and I have to leave Zach. Well, then what what 0:22:50.916 --> 0:22:53.196 what story do I tell myself? Then? Yeah, that so 0:22:53.236 --> 0:22:56.756 it's too flimsy ground, I see, Okay, Yeah, I think 0:22:56.756 --> 0:22:59.956 I was like I had just started treatment when I 0:22:59.996 --> 0:23:02.716 started trying to understand why I felt like I was 0:23:03.636 --> 0:23:07.556 living such a contradiction that like that I had wanted 0:23:07.596 --> 0:23:08.996 to believe in a world in which I had to 0:23:09.116 --> 0:23:11.396 serve what I get, and yet I was like here, 0:23:11.476 --> 0:23:16.676 stuck with these terrible sixty day intervals of life and 0:23:16.756 --> 0:23:19.596 like and not guaranteed anymore. And so I wrote a 0:23:19.636 --> 0:23:21.876 short piece and a friend who had a friend at 0:23:21.876 --> 0:23:24.636 the New York Times encouraged me to sent it in 0:23:24.676 --> 0:23:28.676 and then it got published, which I was not in 0:23:28.716 --> 0:23:31.556 any way prepared for because I had been trying to 0:23:31.556 --> 0:23:37.556 write this little piece that was like, hey, sometimes I 0:23:38.036 --> 0:23:40.196 think I believed that everything was going to happen for 0:23:40.196 --> 0:23:42.036 a reason and that my life was going to have 0:23:42.076 --> 0:23:44.556 an order to it, And now I can see that 0:23:44.716 --> 0:23:47.156 sometimes you have to live without quite so many reasons 0:23:47.996 --> 0:23:50.676 for the things that happened to you. And then I 0:23:50.756 --> 0:23:53.156 got just like hundreds and hundred and thousands of messages 0:23:53.356 --> 0:23:56.156 of people explaining to me why I deserved what I got, 0:23:56.356 --> 0:23:59.316 and it was it ranged. It was a wide range 0:23:59.716 --> 0:24:04.876 of reasons for surely I have committed some terrible sin. 0:24:05.596 --> 0:24:08.676 God has just let me die. You know. God has 0:24:08.676 --> 0:24:11.236 created a mystery and I have to live inside it faithfully. 0:24:11.276 --> 0:24:13.996 So a lot of like that I am unfaithful for 0:24:14.116 --> 0:24:17.756 being angry at the unfairness of it. And then of 0:24:17.796 --> 0:24:21.156 course there's all that, just like um well meeting wellness 0:24:21.236 --> 0:24:23.116