1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The next day, when I was just very casually 2 00:00:32,836 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 1: in my office, just like prepping for a lecture, when 3 00:00:36,556 --> 00:00:39,396 Speaker 1: I got a phone call in my office that I 4 00:00:39,436 --> 00:00:41,196 Speaker 1: had stage four cancer and then I was going to 5 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:44,516 Speaker 1: have to walk from my office to the hospital to 6 00:00:44,596 --> 00:00:48,916 Speaker 1: check myself in for an emergency procedure and who knows what, 7 00:00:49,156 --> 00:00:52,796 Speaker 1: Like just it felt. I don't think I'll ever experience 8 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:57,876 Speaker 1: time moving quite so slowly, because it was the horror 9 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:02,276 Speaker 1: of it. It was like the my life is whatever, 10 00:01:02,356 --> 00:01:05,116 Speaker 1: this is, it's it's I could feel it go, you know, 11 00:01:05,356 --> 00:01:09,476 Speaker 1: like it's all it's all gone now. That's Cape Bowler, 12 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:13,556 Speaker 1: a professor of Christianity at Duke's Divinity School, describing the 13 00:01:13,596 --> 00:01:16,436 Speaker 1: moment she found out she had stage four colon cancer 14 00:01:16,556 --> 00:01:20,676 Speaker 1: at age thirty five. Kate was shocked not only by 15 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:23,636 Speaker 1: the diagnosis, but by her reaction to it and what 16 00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:27,516 Speaker 1: it revealed to her about her faith. I spent years 17 00:01:28,156 --> 00:01:30,876 Speaker 1: studying people who believe that they deserve what they get, 18 00:01:31,196 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: and I never once imagine myself to be that kind 19 00:01:34,396 --> 00:01:37,196 Speaker 1: of person, because you know, I'm part of this faith 20 00:01:37,236 --> 00:01:40,356 Speaker 1: tradition which would never use the word deserve. And then 21 00:01:40,396 --> 00:01:43,476 Speaker 1: when I could hear myself saying, but aren't I kind 22 00:01:43,516 --> 00:01:46,716 Speaker 1: of a good person? It was like that bit was 23 00:01:46,796 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: so deeply humbling. That felt like like I like the 24 00:01:51,636 --> 00:01:53,876 Speaker 1: shirt got turned inside out and I could just see 25 00:01:53,916 --> 00:01:58,036 Speaker 1: all the seams of everything and I realized, like, oh, things, 26 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:04,396 Speaker 1: things come apart. On today's episode, a religious scholar re 27 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 1: examines her own faith as she reckons with a cancer diagnosis. 28 00:02:10,356 --> 00:02:13,236 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 29 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:15,716 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 30 00:02:15,916 --> 00:02:30,756 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. Kate Bohler grew 31 00:02:30,836 --> 00:02:33,876 Speaker 1: up in a Christian family of Mennonites and Manitoba, Canada. 32 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:37,436 Speaker 1: She's always had a strong Christian faith, which for her 33 00:02:37,476 --> 00:02:40,356 Speaker 1: has included the belief that everything happens for a reason. 34 00:02:41,156 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: But as a religious scholar, Kate studied a different branch 35 00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:48,516 Speaker 1: of Christianity called the Prosperity Gospel, known for its megachurches 36 00:02:48,556 --> 00:02:52,116 Speaker 1: and televangelist preachers like Jim and Tammy, Faye Baker, and 37 00:02:52,236 --> 00:02:56,236 Speaker 1: Joel Osteen. The Prosperity Gospel preaches that if you pray 38 00:02:56,316 --> 00:02:59,076 Speaker 1: hard enough and your faith in God is strong, you 39 00:02:59,196 --> 00:03:02,716 Speaker 1: deserve health, wealth, and happiness and will be rewarded with 40 00:03:02,756 --> 00:03:06,876 Speaker 1: those things during your life here on earth. Kate never 41 00:03:06,916 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: believed in this idea of people deserving things, or so 42 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:14,076 Speaker 1: she thought, until her cancer diagnosis revealed to her that 43 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:16,876 Speaker 1: she had been buying into her own kind of prosperity 44 00:03:16,916 --> 00:03:21,396 Speaker 1: gospel all along. And this realization surprised Kate and led 45 00:03:21,396 --> 00:03:24,516 Speaker 1: her to re examine not only this belief, but also 46 00:03:24,596 --> 00:03:27,716 Speaker 1: some of her more foundational beliefs, like whether everything really 47 00:03:27,796 --> 00:03:31,916 Speaker 1: does happen for a reason. Kate and I started off 48 00:03:31,916 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: our conversation by talking about the prosperity Gospel, which had 49 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:38,236 Speaker 1: been the focus of her scholarly research for over a decade, 50 00:03:38,916 --> 00:03:41,636 Speaker 1: to set up beliefs about the power of the mind 51 00:03:41,996 --> 00:03:44,116 Speaker 1: to change your life, that if you have the right 52 00:03:44,156 --> 00:03:46,916 Speaker 1: kind of positive words and the right kind of mental attitude, 53 00:03:47,356 --> 00:03:51,836 Speaker 1: that you can bring health and wealth and overall happiness 54 00:03:52,316 --> 00:03:55,756 Speaker 1: like during your life here on earth. And that's always 55 00:03:55,756 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: the kind of like caveat, because you know, Christianity typically 56 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:03,036 Speaker 1: has a kind of asterix beside it that says, yes, 57 00:04:03,076 --> 00:04:05,956 Speaker 1: God is good, Yes God is loving, Yes God wants 58 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:09,396 Speaker 1: wholeness and love for you. But you may not to 59 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 1: see all of your hopes come to fruition that all 60 00:04:11,956 --> 00:04:15,316 Speaker 1: good things then get kind of deferred to an afterlife. 61 00:04:15,596 --> 00:04:20,556 Speaker 1: But the prosperity Gospel has what we call an overrealized 62 00:04:20,636 --> 00:04:23,716 Speaker 1: sense that all things will happen now for us who believe. 63 00:04:24,436 --> 00:04:28,996 Speaker 1: So it's a really it's an incredibly confident set of 64 00:04:29,076 --> 00:04:32,996 Speaker 1: beliefs that says that you don't need to suffer, you 65 00:04:32,996 --> 00:04:36,116 Speaker 1: don't even need to be lucky, because there will always 66 00:04:36,156 --> 00:04:37,996 Speaker 1: be a way for you to figure out how to 67 00:04:38,076 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: land on your feet. And what do you think drew 68 00:04:41,796 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 1: you to that septic matter? I was really looking around 69 00:04:45,316 --> 00:04:47,636 Speaker 1: for kind of an idea to fall in love with, 70 00:04:47,796 --> 00:04:50,556 Speaker 1: and I didn't think though that I would mostly just 71 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:53,756 Speaker 1: pick something because it made me unbelievably angry. But I 72 00:04:53,836 --> 00:04:56,836 Speaker 1: was a huge rage fast when I had my first 73 00:04:56,916 --> 00:05:00,676 Speaker 1: encounter with the prosperity Gospel. I thought, who did this 74 00:05:00,756 --> 00:05:04,356 Speaker 1: to us? Why are Canadians? Because I grew up in Canada, 75 00:05:04,396 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 1: and I was like, why are Canadians into this? And 76 00:05:07,116 --> 00:05:11,076 Speaker 1: I was honestly kind of a about it. I was condescending, 77 00:05:11,196 --> 00:05:13,796 Speaker 1: treating it kind of a like a car accident that 78 00:05:13,916 --> 00:05:16,316 Speaker 1: I needed to really uncover and explore. It would take 79 00:05:16,316 --> 00:05:18,356 Speaker 1: me a number of years even just to kind of 80 00:05:18,356 --> 00:05:21,156 Speaker 1: settle into a sense that it was like not just 81 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:24,116 Speaker 1: a heresy, like a set of incorrect beliefs, but like 82 00:05:24,116 --> 00:05:27,716 Speaker 1: a worldview that I wanted to understand. So some of 83 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: your your curiosity or interest in diving into this was 84 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 1: around really just calling bullshit on it. Is that is 85 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 1: that actually was okay? So you end up writing this 86 00:05:37,916 --> 00:05:42,196 Speaker 1: book ironically called Blessed, which which chronicles the entire history 87 00:05:42,236 --> 00:05:47,476 Speaker 1: of the Prosperity Gospel. It seems like Kate Bowler's life 88 00:05:47,556 --> 00:05:50,156 Speaker 1: is also feeling pretty blessed, right. The lots of things 89 00:05:50,196 --> 00:05:53,436 Speaker 1: are falling into place. You get your dream job at 90 00:05:53,516 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 1: Duke's Divinity School, and after years of infertility, you and 91 00:05:59,036 --> 00:06:02,916 Speaker 1: your husband Toven, have this beautiful baby boy named Zach. 92 00:06:03,156 --> 00:06:07,636 Speaker 1: Right yea, And yeah, first, I still resonate with those 93 00:06:07,676 --> 00:06:10,236 Speaker 1: moments in life where you're like, and got it and 94 00:06:10,276 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 1: you almost want to, like you want to catch it 95 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:14,116 Speaker 1: in your hands and put it into a bottle like 96 00:06:14,156 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 1: no one can ever touch it. Yeah, You're like, I 97 00:06:16,836 --> 00:06:19,996 Speaker 1: stuck the landing like there was Yeah, you can feel 98 00:06:19,996 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 1: yourself just hit it. And I I couldn't believe. I 99 00:06:25,116 --> 00:06:27,516 Speaker 1: couldn't believe that it all lined up like I was 100 00:06:27,596 --> 00:06:32,076 Speaker 1: just I had this gorgeous university job after having you know, 101 00:06:32,156 --> 00:06:34,996 Speaker 1: grown up a shadow of you know, it always looked 102 00:06:34,996 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: like the university manitobe was like constantly financing Stalinist architecture. 103 00:06:38,716 --> 00:06:40,996 Speaker 1: Like when my parents on a campus, they were like, 104 00:06:41,076 --> 00:06:43,836 Speaker 1: if you ever leave this place, I will murder you. 105 00:06:44,276 --> 00:06:48,836 Speaker 1: Like I felt so lucky to be in this gorgeous 106 00:06:48,876 --> 00:06:54,196 Speaker 1: place and finally have this smushy little you know baby 107 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:59,756 Speaker 1: that smells like cookies all the time. And I really thought, 108 00:07:00,076 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 1: then this this is my life, Like I could see 109 00:07:02,356 --> 00:07:05,756 Speaker 1: it stretch out. I was gonna write all these books. 110 00:07:06,076 --> 00:07:10,236 Speaker 1: I was gonna have an office with like gargoyle bookends, 111 00:07:10,396 --> 00:07:12,716 Speaker 1: which I had a lot of strong feelings about, Like 112 00:07:12,756 --> 00:07:15,516 Speaker 1: I was gonna have all these grateful graduate students, Like 113 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: this was the site of my life. And I didn't 114 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: mean to be as arrogant as that sounds, but like 115 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: I was like really locked into this beautiful dream and 116 00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:29,836 Speaker 1: it like felt so good to me. I guess I 117 00:07:30,036 --> 00:07:33,796 Speaker 1: for so long I had been paying into this imagined 118 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:38,636 Speaker 1: future and I all of it, all the like grind 119 00:07:38,716 --> 00:07:40,716 Speaker 1: of it the and now you just have to write 120 00:07:40,756 --> 00:07:43,356 Speaker 1: six hundred words and they'd better be footnoted properly. Like 121 00:07:43,396 --> 00:07:48,676 Speaker 1: all the deferring felt like I was like this accountant 122 00:07:48,676 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 1: and I was just gonna. I was having this. I 123 00:07:50,796 --> 00:07:53,876 Speaker 1: would like add it all up, and then I would 124 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:57,556 Speaker 1: hit this moment and like congratulations me, Like all a 125 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:00,156 Speaker 1: great math. Right, you go to the store, you give 126 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:02,716 Speaker 1: them your voucher, and you're like, okay, here it is. 127 00:08:02,956 --> 00:08:07,276 Speaker 1: I'm raticularly, yeah, yeah, I'm put in I put in 128 00:08:07,356 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: all that work. Yeah. Well, I'm wondering if you can 129 00:08:11,476 --> 00:08:15,116 Speaker 1: take me back to what it was like at age 130 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:19,156 Speaker 1: thirty five when your life just turns completely upside down. 131 00:08:20,436 --> 00:08:25,276 Speaker 1: I started getting really severe stomach pains and I immediately 132 00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 1: went to my doctor and I said, this seems really 133 00:08:27,676 --> 00:08:31,316 Speaker 1: kind of very out of proportion. And then she said, well, 134 00:08:32,076 --> 00:08:34,116 Speaker 1: you know you're young. I don't think it's that much, 135 00:08:34,476 --> 00:08:36,716 Speaker 1: but let me let me prefer you to the specialist. 136 00:08:36,836 --> 00:08:41,276 Speaker 1: And I got bounced around between specialists with an increasing 137 00:08:41,316 --> 00:08:44,636 Speaker 1: sense of panic, like I was chugging peptobismal. I was 138 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:49,356 Speaker 1: doubled over with pain, and I had such an intense 139 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 1: grin and Barrett, it never really occurred to me that 140 00:08:53,276 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: I could like press the emergency button, you know, that 141 00:08:56,076 --> 00:08:58,716 Speaker 1: I was allowed to lose it because I was so 142 00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:02,196 Speaker 1: good at trying. So when I finally was supposed to 143 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:04,436 Speaker 1: get a surgery for what they thought was like a 144 00:09:04,476 --> 00:09:08,036 Speaker 1: faulty gall bladder and then they said, well, the tests 145 00:09:08,076 --> 00:09:11,156 Speaker 1: don't show quite enough to warrant that kind of surgery, 146 00:09:11,236 --> 00:09:14,516 Speaker 1: I just fucking lost it. I just I couldn't handle 147 00:09:15,076 --> 00:09:20,636 Speaker 1: the boredom on the surgeon's face and the panic that 148 00:09:20,716 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 1: I was experiencing that no one was it was it 149 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:24,956 Speaker 1: was half a year in that no one was going 150 00:09:24,996 --> 00:09:29,916 Speaker 1: to take me seriously, and so I I just yelled 151 00:09:30,156 --> 00:09:33,836 Speaker 1: in a very on Canadian way, and I was like, 152 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:35,796 Speaker 1: You're going to give me a scan and I'm not leaving, 153 00:09:35,876 --> 00:09:38,596 Speaker 1: Like I'm just not leaving until you figure out something 154 00:09:38,636 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 1: else for me. And and I really thought it was 155 00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:47,036 Speaker 1: just going to be like an inconvenience. So the next day, 156 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:49,836 Speaker 1: when I was just very casually in my office, just 157 00:09:49,916 --> 00:09:53,116 Speaker 1: like prepping for a lecture, when I got a phone 158 00:09:53,156 --> 00:09:56,476 Speaker 1: call in my office that I had stage four cancer 159 00:09:56,636 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 1: and then I was going to have to walk from 160 00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:02,276 Speaker 1: my office to the hospital to check myself in for 161 00:10:02,556 --> 00:10:05,956 Speaker 1: an emergency procedure and who knows what, Like just it 162 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:09,956 Speaker 1: felt I don't think I'll ever experience time moving quite 163 00:10:09,996 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 1: so slowly because it was the horror of it. It 164 00:10:14,756 --> 00:10:18,996 Speaker 1: was like the my life is whatever, this is, it's 165 00:10:19,196 --> 00:10:21,756 Speaker 1: it's I could feel it go, you know, like it's 166 00:10:21,796 --> 00:10:26,636 Speaker 1: all it's all gone now. I uh, I didn't realize 167 00:10:26,636 --> 00:10:30,276 Speaker 1: that life can turn so quickly and that like whatever 168 00:10:30,316 --> 00:10:34,276 Speaker 1: plans you have like don't count. So all I said was, um, 169 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:37,876 Speaker 1: but I have a son. Like I was arguing with her, 170 00:10:38,076 --> 00:10:41,316 Speaker 1: you know, because she sounded so bored. And when I 171 00:10:41,356 --> 00:10:44,436 Speaker 1: met her after the surgery to just check on some staples, 172 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:49,236 Speaker 1: she said, Uh, how are you? And I said, um, actually, 173 00:10:49,276 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 1: it's been really hard, and she said, well, the sooner 174 00:10:52,236 --> 00:10:53,836 Speaker 1: you get used to the idea of dying, the better. 175 00:10:55,356 --> 00:10:59,436 Speaker 1: And that was the That was the strange brutality of 176 00:10:59,476 --> 00:11:02,676 Speaker 1: this like threshold moment, that like there was a before 177 00:11:02,876 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 1: and an after in my life and that I was 178 00:11:04,996 --> 00:11:06,516 Speaker 1: going to have to figure out how to live in 179 00:11:06,556 --> 00:11:11,436 Speaker 1: the after. But I just genuinely didn't know how Hey, 180 00:11:11,716 --> 00:11:17,436 Speaker 1: I'm I'm trying to trying to understand in that moment 181 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 1: how long it took for the news to really penetrate, 182 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:29,156 Speaker 1: because when you have that kind of whiplash, like yeah, 183 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: what was that? I mean it felt honestly, it felt 184 00:11:32,156 --> 00:11:36,756 Speaker 1: immediate to me. It felt like it was my job 185 00:11:37,756 --> 00:11:40,396 Speaker 1: to learn to let go as fast as I could. 186 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:43,036 Speaker 1: But I didn't know what I was letting go of. 187 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: Like the first thing you have to let go of 188 00:11:46,476 --> 00:11:51,236 Speaker 1: is your body. Like I walk into the hospital, I 189 00:11:51,316 --> 00:11:55,116 Speaker 1: get admitted, I have to take off my dress, and 190 00:11:55,196 --> 00:11:57,916 Speaker 1: it was the dress that I loved to lecture in, 191 00:11:58,076 --> 00:12:00,036 Speaker 1: and I remember looking at it and thinking, I don't 192 00:12:00,036 --> 00:12:03,716 Speaker 1: know if I'll ever get to wear this again. And 193 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:06,156 Speaker 1: and you put on a gown and they will shave 194 00:12:06,196 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 1: you and paint you, and you'll feel though the heaviness 195 00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:12,876 Speaker 1: of your limbs when they strap you down, and you'll 196 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,116 Speaker 1: be awake for so much of it that you have 197 00:12:15,156 --> 00:12:18,516 Speaker 1: to tell yourself like it is my job to let go, 198 00:12:19,316 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 1: but not if it makes any sense. Like I couldn't 199 00:12:22,716 --> 00:12:24,876 Speaker 1: picture not going home. When do I get to go home. 200 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:27,036 Speaker 1: I couldn't picture not being able to pick up my 201 00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,556 Speaker 1: son because I was going to wake up with all 202 00:12:29,596 --> 00:12:33,876 Speaker 1: these incisions. And then when I woke up there was 203 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:38,756 Speaker 1: I just remember how sad everyone was. And then a 204 00:12:38,956 --> 00:12:42,636 Speaker 1: night when I was by myself and I realized it 205 00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:45,396 Speaker 1: was the first time I'd been alone with a doctor 206 00:12:45,396 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 1: where I could just ask questions. And so that's when 207 00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,596 Speaker 1: I said, m hey, like not to bug you or anything, 208 00:12:50,716 --> 00:12:53,076 Speaker 1: but like nobody's told me if I'm going to live, 209 00:12:53,876 --> 00:12:56,796 Speaker 1: and to be honest, I don't totally understand like where 210 00:12:56,836 --> 00:13:00,356 Speaker 1: all the cancer was or went. He was like, well, 211 00:13:00,396 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 1: I can only tell you by recounting the statistical average 212 00:13:04,316 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: of someone with your diagnosis. And he said, well that 213 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:11,596 Speaker 1: like survival amounts to fourteen a fourteen percent chance of survival, 214 00:13:12,236 --> 00:13:18,076 Speaker 1: and that survival in the two years. Um, So I 215 00:13:18,116 --> 00:13:21,876 Speaker 1: want to I want to dig into what your first 216 00:13:21,876 --> 00:13:25,316 Speaker 1: reaction to this news was in terms of like zooming 217 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:27,476 Speaker 1: out at the thirty thout ye, because I've read that 218 00:13:27,556 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: you you know, you were like that I'm I'm like special, 219 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:33,076 Speaker 1: and like, don't I had a kind of a good person. Yeah, 220 00:13:33,116 --> 00:13:36,436 Speaker 1: there's yeah, that's so funny. That's great because there was 221 00:13:36,476 --> 00:13:39,956 Speaker 1: like a weird double reaction. Holy crap, of course it's 222 00:13:39,996 --> 00:13:44,596 Speaker 1: me and this other version that was like the middle 223 00:13:44,636 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: class hustler that was like, hadn't I worked really hard? 224 00:13:47,796 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 1: Aren't I kind of a like a reasonably nice, decent 225 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:53,876 Speaker 1: person who And then I wanted so much to say, 226 00:13:53,916 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 1: like deserve like who deserves to have this beautiful life? 227 00:13:58,916 --> 00:14:01,636 Speaker 1: And hadn't I earned it somehow? And then I was 228 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:06,076 Speaker 1: back to that like the math, like I made everything 229 00:14:06,116 --> 00:14:09,716 Speaker 1: add up and now and now you're telling me that, 230 00:14:09,836 --> 00:14:13,076 Speaker 1: like I like, I'm going to be the one that 231 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:23,116 Speaker 1: doesn't make it. I felt really outwaged. And it's just 232 00:14:23,156 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 1: so funny, because you know, I'm part of this faith 233 00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:28,396 Speaker 1: tradition which would never use the word deserve. I'm not 234 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:30,756 Speaker 1: even American. And I realized, like I had such a 235 00:14:30,876 --> 00:14:35,036 Speaker 1: deeply American belief that my individual effort, my hustle and 236 00:14:35,156 --> 00:14:39,996 Speaker 1: hard work, my sort of inherent deservedness in finding that 237 00:14:40,076 --> 00:14:44,716 Speaker 1: relationship between hard work and success, that I didn't even 238 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:48,036 Speaker 1: leave room for the possibility that you can do all 239 00:14:48,036 --> 00:14:52,996 Speaker 1: the right things and and that and that, and that 240 00:14:53,036 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 1: you can be deeply unlucky. And I spent years studying 241 00:14:57,876 --> 00:15:00,516 Speaker 1: people who believe that they deserve what they get, and 242 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:03,996 Speaker 1: I never once imagine myself to be that kind of person. 243 00:15:04,636 --> 00:15:07,756 Speaker 1: And then when I could hear myself saying, but aren't 244 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:10,196 Speaker 1: I kind of a good person? Like do you do 245 00:15:10,276 --> 00:15:13,036 Speaker 1: you see this personality in motion? I am working hard? 246 00:15:13,716 --> 00:15:18,596 Speaker 1: I just like it was it was like that that 247 00:15:18,636 --> 00:15:23,316 Speaker 1: bit was so deeply humbling that felt like like I 248 00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:25,956 Speaker 1: like the shirt got turned inside out and I could 249 00:15:25,956 --> 00:15:30,396 Speaker 1: just see all the seams of everything, and I realized, like, oh, things, 250 00:15:31,196 --> 00:15:36,036 Speaker 1: things come apart. Say more about that. Yeah, I guess 251 00:15:36,076 --> 00:15:42,396 Speaker 1: I'm one of the strangest parts about being lucky. I 252 00:15:42,396 --> 00:15:45,676 Speaker 1: suppose not knowing that you're lucky, believing that every one 253 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 1: of your actions are supposed to add up to more 254 00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:51,916 Speaker 1: and more and more is that um is that you 255 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:55,076 Speaker 1: begin to feel like you've earned your life, deserved your life, 256 00:15:55,556 --> 00:15:58,356 Speaker 1: that you don't even need luck, like you bulldoze a path. 257 00:15:58,756 --> 00:16:03,036 Speaker 1: And over the years I have steadily built up a 258 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 1: belief system that said that I am the solution to 259 00:16:05,796 --> 00:16:08,236 Speaker 1: every problem. I'm the center that holds, I'm the thing 260 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:12,916 Speaker 1: that acts. I will make my own destiny, and and 261 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:16,796 Speaker 1: that if I can't, then you know, in this culture 262 00:16:16,836 --> 00:16:19,796 Speaker 1: that always says, you know, there's there's no setbacks, there's 263 00:16:19,796 --> 00:16:22,676 Speaker 1: just set ups. You know, people are always like closing doors, 264 00:16:22,716 --> 00:16:26,396 Speaker 1: opening windows, that all of these kind of cultural cliches 265 00:16:26,396 --> 00:16:29,996 Speaker 1: and aphorisms are there too. Explain to me that pain 266 00:16:30,156 --> 00:16:33,436 Speaker 1: was just like a like a tripping hazard or a lesson, 267 00:16:34,196 --> 00:16:36,316 Speaker 1: and that it was my job to learn the lesson 268 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 1: in order to overcome, but that there was never a 269 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:42,956 Speaker 1: version in which I was going to lose or else. 270 00:16:43,756 --> 00:16:46,396 Speaker 1: If you lose, then you're a loser, if you fail 271 00:16:46,516 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: to make that dream come true, like you really only 272 00:16:49,036 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 1: have yourself to blame, and that feeling set in really quickly. 273 00:16:57,116 --> 00:16:59,436 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a slight change of plans. 274 00:17:11,956 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: I'm talking with Kate Bohler, a religious scholar at Duke University. 275 00:17:15,956 --> 00:17:18,516 Speaker 1: She was thirty five years old when doctors told Kate 276 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:21,636 Speaker 1: she had staged four colon cancer and that her chance 277 00:17:21,716 --> 00:17:25,956 Speaker 1: of survival was just fourteen percent. But then doctors told 278 00:17:26,036 --> 00:17:28,676 Speaker 1: Kate she may or may not qualify for some novel 279 00:17:28,716 --> 00:17:34,596 Speaker 1: immunotherapies that could significantly increase her chance of survival. They said, 280 00:17:34,756 --> 00:17:37,756 Speaker 1: I might be part of the ninety percent of people 281 00:17:37,796 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: who just received chemotherapy and with a diagnosis like mine 282 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:45,476 Speaker 1: would likely die within six months, or part of a 283 00:17:45,516 --> 00:17:49,716 Speaker 1: seven percent whose cancer would multiply unabated and there would 284 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:53,516 Speaker 1: be no point in doing treatment anyway, Or that I 285 00:17:53,596 --> 00:17:58,316 Speaker 1: might be part of a three percent chance whose particular 286 00:17:58,396 --> 00:18:01,756 Speaker 1: condition would open me up to being able to try 287 00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:05,956 Speaker 1: some of these novel immunotherapies that were being tested. So I, 288 00:18:06,396 --> 00:18:09,436 Speaker 1: just because I am in the humanities, I was like, oh, okay, 289 00:18:09,476 --> 00:18:13,476 Speaker 1: so I could probably die, I could absolutely die, or 290 00:18:13,516 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 1: I could have magic cancer. And he was like, yeah, 291 00:18:15,716 --> 00:18:19,476 Speaker 1: pretty much, so awesome great. So when I got like 292 00:18:19,476 --> 00:18:22,356 Speaker 1: a phone call a couple of weeks later that just said, 293 00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:26,236 Speaker 1: turns out you have the magic cancer, I was so. 294 00:18:26,996 --> 00:18:31,716 Speaker 1: I was so thrilled because even though even though most 295 00:18:31,716 --> 00:18:34,756 Speaker 1: of the people who were in that cohort wouldn't respond 296 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:39,316 Speaker 1: to the immunotherapy, I might. I might, And so it 297 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:41,756 Speaker 1: was like the very first chance that there might be 298 00:18:42,756 --> 00:18:46,796 Speaker 1: like a future for me. Yeah. I want to know 299 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 1: whether you get this devastating cancer diagnosis and all of 300 00:18:51,356 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 1: a sudden, this disbelief you've had along, which is you know, 301 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:56,396 Speaker 1: I'm special, I'm Kate, I'm a good person, I'm nice 302 00:18:56,436 --> 00:19:01,356 Speaker 1: to people, starts to dissipate, but then you get this 303 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:03,836 Speaker 1: news that you do have the magic cancer, which you 304 00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: could imagine could seduce you back into this older way 305 00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:11,076 Speaker 1: of thinking. Yeah, And I think I felt like I 306 00:19:11,116 --> 00:19:15,596 Speaker 1: was sometimes surrounded by that because people wanted to, you know, 307 00:19:15,676 --> 00:19:19,516 Speaker 1: because the people who love you are delusional, and they 308 00:19:19,556 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 1: start and we all start lying. You know, we're like, well, 309 00:19:22,516 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 1: you know, it's going to be a miracle and God's 310 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:26,316 Speaker 1: going to find a way or science is going to 311 00:19:26,356 --> 00:19:29,716 Speaker 1: find a way. Like we have all these hyper causalities 312 00:19:29,756 --> 00:19:32,196 Speaker 1: that we then assume that because I am a somehow 313 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: special person and they just mean, you know, because they 314 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:38,636 Speaker 1: love me, and my death would be unthinkable. My death 315 00:19:38,636 --> 00:19:41,676 Speaker 1: would end a world, right, it's just the way the 316 00:19:41,716 --> 00:19:45,716 Speaker 1: way we love. And so people really wanted to believe 317 00:19:45,716 --> 00:19:48,036 Speaker 1: that I was going to be part of this you 318 00:19:48,116 --> 00:19:52,676 Speaker 1: have to live and I immediately I didn't want to 319 00:19:52,716 --> 00:19:56,716 Speaker 1: do it. I didn't want to do it. And by 320 00:19:56,756 --> 00:19:58,796 Speaker 1: not wanting to do it, what you mean is you 321 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:00,596 Speaker 1: didn't want to revert back into the old way of 322 00:20:00,596 --> 00:20:03,516 Speaker 1: thinking that, yeah, I am special and I am exceptional, 323 00:20:03,556 --> 00:20:06,396 Speaker 1: and I deserve what I put in, what I've put 324 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:10,756 Speaker 1: into this life. Yeah, And I felt like I'd learned 325 00:20:10,836 --> 00:20:15,876 Speaker 1: something I didn't want to unlearn. And my like procarity, 326 00:20:17,436 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 1: the feeling of like teetering, I just felt like it 327 00:20:22,036 --> 00:20:25,396 Speaker 1: was letting me see other things I hadn't seen before. 328 00:20:25,716 --> 00:20:29,236 Speaker 1: And I don't know, I know it sounds like strange, 329 00:20:29,436 --> 00:20:31,476 Speaker 1: at least it is to me, But like I found 330 00:20:31,476 --> 00:20:33,316 Speaker 1: myself saying stuff like I don't want to go back, 331 00:20:33,756 --> 00:20:35,396 Speaker 1: and of course, like I wanted to go back. I 332 00:20:35,436 --> 00:20:37,836 Speaker 1: would have loved to go back to like a healthy, 333 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:41,156 Speaker 1: delusional person I was before. But like I felt like, 334 00:20:42,156 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: knowing then that the world can come undone, it like 335 00:20:45,316 --> 00:20:48,036 Speaker 1: opened up in me a capacity to love other people 336 00:20:48,076 --> 00:20:50,676 Speaker 1: in their procarity that I didn't I didn't know before. 337 00:20:50,716 --> 00:20:55,676 Speaker 1: And I felt like the strange, shimmery kind of matrix 338 00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:57,836 Speaker 1: feeling you get when you feel the truth of something, 339 00:20:58,236 --> 00:21:04,356 Speaker 1: And that felt so precious, so fucking precious that like that, 340 00:21:04,516 --> 00:21:06,436 Speaker 1: After that, I was more just trying to find the 341 00:21:06,516 --> 00:21:09,796 Speaker 1: right relationship to hope without return learning to the like 342 00:21:10,876 --> 00:21:13,876 Speaker 1: that I deserve my life. You know, you talk about 343 00:21:13,956 --> 00:21:16,916 Speaker 1: how in that moment there's this there's this tension right 344 00:21:17,036 --> 00:21:20,916 Speaker 1: of you both want to to reoccupy the delusional state 345 00:21:20,956 --> 00:21:24,116 Speaker 1: of mind because what a safe and joyful place to occupy, 346 00:21:24,236 --> 00:21:26,556 Speaker 1: right to. But on the other hand, you do feel 347 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 1: like confronting the truth or what you believe to be 348 00:21:29,516 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 1: the truth, but I believe to be the truth allows 349 00:21:32,996 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 1: you to create a kind of empathy for others in 350 00:21:35,276 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 1: their pain, in their suffering that you might not have 351 00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:39,916 Speaker 1: been able to I want to know whether there was also, 352 00:21:40,396 --> 00:21:42,596 Speaker 1: in that moment or since then, whether you felt that 353 00:21:42,636 --> 00:21:46,756 Speaker 1: there was also an advantage to you of not rebuying 354 00:21:46,796 --> 00:21:50,716 Speaker 1: that lie. Yeah. Yeah, I mean sometimes I just felt 355 00:21:50,716 --> 00:21:53,156 Speaker 1: like I can't afford to hope right now, Like I mean, 356 00:21:53,196 --> 00:21:55,116 Speaker 1: I can't afford to take on a certainty that I'd 357 00:21:55,116 --> 00:21:58,996 Speaker 1: have to take back. I do notice that people who've 358 00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:02,716 Speaker 1: really been through something are very frequently very careful in 359 00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 1: the way that we both tell a story and then 360 00:22:06,076 --> 00:22:07,876 Speaker 1: as if we don't want to say things that have 361 00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:15,516 Speaker 1: to be unsaid. So ah, yeah, someone once called it 362 00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:19,036 Speaker 1: like um the fellowship of the afflicted. Always thought that 363 00:22:19,156 --> 00:22:22,036 Speaker 1: was such like a lovely way of because you can 364 00:22:22,116 --> 00:22:25,636 Speaker 1: feel that badge of belonging. Sometimes when we're not sloppy 365 00:22:25,716 --> 00:22:28,396 Speaker 1: with our language, we don't hope for things. We don't 366 00:22:28,436 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 1: hope for everything we are. Our hopes are like precious 367 00:22:32,236 --> 00:22:34,556 Speaker 1: little gems and we have them we hold on tight, 368 00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:39,876 Speaker 1: but we don't hope for everything. So so it almost 369 00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:43,436 Speaker 1: felt like self protective instinct then in that moment to think, look, 370 00:22:43,476 --> 00:22:46,516 Speaker 1: I if I buy into this again, well, then in 371 00:22:46,596 --> 00:22:49,196 Speaker 1: four weeks if I find out the immunotherapy doesn't work 372 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 1: and I have to leave Zach. Well, then what what 373 00:22:50,916 --> 00:22:53,196 Speaker 1: what story do I tell myself? Then? Yeah, that so 374 00:22:53,236 --> 00:22:56,756 Speaker 1: it's too flimsy ground, I see, Okay, Yeah, I think 375 00:22:56,756 --> 00:22:59,956 Speaker 1: I was like I had just started treatment when I 376 00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,716 Speaker 1: started trying to understand why I felt like I was 377 00:23:03,636 --> 00:23:07,556 Speaker 1: living such a contradiction that like that I had wanted 378 00:23:07,596 --> 00:23:08,996 Speaker 1: to believe in a world in which I had to 379 00:23:09,116 --> 00:23:11,396 Speaker 1: serve what I get, and yet I was like here, 380 00:23:11,476 --> 00:23:16,676 Speaker 1: stuck with these terrible sixty day intervals of life and 381 00:23:16,756 --> 00:23:19,596 Speaker 1: like and not guaranteed anymore. And so I wrote a 382 00:23:19,636 --> 00:23:21,876 Speaker 1: short piece and a friend who had a friend at 383 00:23:21,876 --> 00:23:24,636 Speaker 1: the New York Times encouraged me to sent it in 384 00:23:24,676 --> 00:23:28,676 Speaker 1: and then it got published, which I was not in 385 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:31,556 Speaker 1: any way prepared for because I had been trying to 386 00:23:31,556 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 1: write this little piece that was like, hey, sometimes I 387 00:23:38,036 --> 00:23:40,196 Speaker 1: think I believed that everything was going to happen for 388 00:23:40,196 --> 00:23:42,036 Speaker 1: a reason and that my life was going to have 389 00:23:42,076 --> 00:23:44,556 Speaker 1: an order to it, And now I can see that 390 00:23:44,716 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: sometimes you have to live without quite so many reasons 391 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,676 Speaker 1: for the things that happened to you. And then I 392 00:23:50,756 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 1: got just like hundreds and hundred and thousands of messages 393 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:56,156 Speaker 1: of people explaining to me why I deserved what I got, 394 00:23:56,356 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: and it was it ranged. It was a wide range 395 00:23:59,716 --> 00:24:04,876 Speaker 1: of reasons for surely I have committed some terrible sin. 396 00:24:05,596 --> 00:24:08,676 Speaker 1: God has just let me die. You know. God has 397 00:24:08,676 --> 00:24:11,236 Speaker 1: created a mystery and I have to live inside it faithfully. 398 00:24:11,276 --> 00:24:13,996 Speaker 1: So a lot of like that I am unfaithful for 399 00:24:14,116 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 1: being angry at the unfairness of it. And then of 400 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:21,156 Speaker 1: course there's all that, just like um well meeting wellness 401 00:24:21,236 --> 00:24:23,116 Speaker 1: people who are there to explain to me why every 402 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:26,996 Speaker 1: smovie or every failure to accept a nutritional supplement is 403 00:24:27,076 --> 00:24:30,436 Speaker 1: like the reason for my impending death. So I guess 404 00:24:30,436 --> 00:24:33,756 Speaker 1: like it's just funny because I had tried so hard 405 00:24:34,556 --> 00:24:36,996 Speaker 1: to live without quite so many reasons. I feel like 406 00:24:37,036 --> 00:24:39,356 Speaker 1: ever since, all I've been doing is drowning in them. 407 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:44,516 Speaker 1: We had a neighbor come to the door one day 408 00:24:44,676 --> 00:24:49,956 Speaker 1: and try to lovingly bring food, but also explained to 409 00:24:49,996 --> 00:24:52,956 Speaker 1: my husband oman that everything happens for a reason, like 410 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:54,796 Speaker 1: you know, she's sort of like a throw like, well, 411 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:58,516 Speaker 1: everything happens for a reason. And he just looked at 412 00:24:58,516 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 1: her dead eyed and was like, oh, I'd love to 413 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:02,956 Speaker 1: hear it, like I'd love to hear the reason my 414 00:25:02,956 --> 00:25:09,676 Speaker 1: wife is dying. And it was a good um, she's 415 00:25:09,716 --> 00:25:13,956 Speaker 1: like scampered away and im and now now I say 416 00:25:13,996 --> 00:25:18,596 Speaker 1: the obligatory. I'm sure she meant well, But the desire 417 00:25:18,676 --> 00:25:21,716 Speaker 1: to poor reasons into the void. It's just like it 418 00:25:21,756 --> 00:25:24,996 Speaker 1: feels irresistible, I think sometimes, and I think that's part 419 00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:29,196 Speaker 1: of the insanity of living in this culture is every 420 00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 1: suffering person feels like we have to explain what's happening 421 00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:36,796 Speaker 1: to us is if our lives are an indictment. It's 422 00:25:36,876 --> 00:25:41,076 Speaker 1: it's also so striking to me because and correct me 423 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:44,196 Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, but I'm I'm imagining that there's this 424 00:25:44,276 --> 00:25:46,636 Speaker 1: influx of letters coming from people all over the world 425 00:25:47,076 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 1: who are saying, okay, let me explain to you why yeah, 426 00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:55,076 Speaker 1: And on the one hand, you feel so in your sensibilities, 427 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: are so offended by all of this, like what the 428 00:25:57,956 --> 00:26:02,676 Speaker 1: hell why are you no? Sorry, random person in ann Arbor, 429 00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:05,276 Speaker 1: Like you don't actually get to explain my suffering, right, 430 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:09,596 Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, it feels like maybe 431 00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 1: pre cancer diagnosis, Kate might have wanted to do exactly 432 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:15,636 Speaker 1: the same thing that they were doing for you now, 433 00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:18,516 Speaker 1: like maybe you would have wanted to explain away someone 434 00:26:18,556 --> 00:26:21,236 Speaker 1: else is suffering, just to just right to find meaning 435 00:26:21,236 --> 00:26:24,236 Speaker 1: in it, and it wouldn't and it might not even 436 00:26:24,276 --> 00:26:27,996 Speaker 1: sound like oh what did they do? It might be like, well, 437 00:26:27,996 --> 00:26:30,996 Speaker 1: how how old was she was she married? Did she 438 00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 1: have a kid? How many kids? How long has she 439 00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: been married? What does she do? Like just the accounting, 440 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:40,476 Speaker 1: the feeling that in times of suffering, everybody's an accountant 441 00:26:40,556 --> 00:26:45,156 Speaker 1: trying to tally up each other's life and our significance, 442 00:26:45,316 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 1: and therefore how sad they should be. Yeah, it's like 443 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 1: quantifying the loss, it really is. Yeah, that's so interesting. 444 00:26:54,796 --> 00:26:59,276 Speaker 1: Were you able to again? I could imagine it's being 445 00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:01,436 Speaker 1: infuriated by some of these messages like you know what 446 00:27:01,476 --> 00:27:05,396 Speaker 1: you drink? The organic smoothe Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean 447 00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:08,516 Speaker 1: I think I was most mad, and I think I 448 00:27:08,596 --> 00:27:11,156 Speaker 1: was most out at other Christians because I felt like 449 00:27:11,156 --> 00:27:15,276 Speaker 1: they were supposed to be my like my soft place 450 00:27:15,316 --> 00:27:19,756 Speaker 1: to fall. We have great compassionate you know chunks of 451 00:27:19,796 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: scripture that are four moments like this, like the Book 452 00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:24,196 Speaker 1: of Job, you're supposed to be able to say like 453 00:27:25,356 --> 00:27:27,756 Speaker 1: there are no words, there are no words for this 454 00:27:27,876 --> 00:27:31,276 Speaker 1: kind of like undoing. But instead I got a lot 455 00:27:31,276 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 1: of like, don't worry, Everything's going to be fine and 456 00:27:34,756 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 1: soon you'll go home to heaven. And I just remember 457 00:27:37,356 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: being like, oh, maybe you want to go home first. 458 00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:45,596 Speaker 1: It just feels like so snarky about after you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No, 459 00:27:45,756 --> 00:27:48,636 Speaker 1: I mean I wouldn't want to get in your way here, 460 00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:53,116 Speaker 1: I think especially, Um, it just kind of raised a 461 00:27:53,156 --> 00:27:56,356 Speaker 1: lot of questions for me about like what what what 462 00:27:56,396 --> 00:27:59,316 Speaker 1: would a faithful person do in a situation like this, 463 00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:02,476 Speaker 1: Like if I was more faithful, would I have a 464 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,636 Speaker 1: certain kind of peace or confidence? Would I would I 465 00:28:05,796 --> 00:28:10,556 Speaker 1: be more able to let go? And I it just 466 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:14,116 Speaker 1: felt like a lie though to me that I should 467 00:28:14,196 --> 00:28:18,636 Speaker 1: look at my my like little toddler with his giant, 468 00:28:18,676 --> 00:28:21,396 Speaker 1: guppy eyes, that like I was supposed to look a 469 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,436 Speaker 1: look at him and say that like his life would 470 00:28:24,436 --> 00:28:27,716 Speaker 1: still somehow be as good if I weren't there to 471 00:28:27,756 --> 00:28:32,316 Speaker 1: be his mom and I They're just the like hollowness 472 00:28:32,356 --> 00:28:37,076 Speaker 1: of all those reasons just made the whole thing um 473 00:28:37,996 --> 00:28:43,996 Speaker 1: just so like deeply like spiritually emotionally like unsatisfying. So 474 00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:45,196 Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I mean you can say all 475 00:28:45,236 --> 00:28:47,076 Speaker 1: kinds of things, but like, don't lie to me, Like 476 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:52,636 Speaker 1: there's no world in which I shouldn't be this kid's mom. Yeah, 477 00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:57,716 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Kate, whether um, it was a diagnosis itself 478 00:28:57,756 --> 00:29:03,716 Speaker 1: that led you to kind of examine what lies you 479 00:29:03,756 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 1: had believed up until that point, or whether it was 480 00:29:09,996 --> 00:29:13,756 Speaker 1: having these beliefs kind of aggressively thrown in your face 481 00:29:13,876 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 1: through this op ed that that most led you to challenge. 482 00:29:16,956 --> 00:29:19,316 Speaker 1: And maybe they both played a role, but not as 483 00:29:19,316 --> 00:29:22,996 Speaker 1: many people get that second experience where all the things 484 00:29:23,036 --> 00:29:25,556 Speaker 1: that they might have thought to want to do for 485 00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 1: others or themselves is suddenly in your face from others, 486 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:34,156 Speaker 1: in the throes of your own horrible, horrible experience, right, Yeah, 487 00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 1: to be like the observer of and then the subject 488 00:29:37,276 --> 00:29:43,516 Speaker 1: of immediately, And it did really become both like a 489 00:29:43,556 --> 00:29:46,196 Speaker 1: source of tremendous pain but also like a real I 490 00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:48,956 Speaker 1: feel like all for me, any good project, like something 491 00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:51,596 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in trying to understand and study, also 492 00:29:51,636 --> 00:29:54,236 Speaker 1: feels like it's it's the heart of a question that 493 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:58,236 Speaker 1: I'm openly struggling against. And for me, it was how 494 00:29:58,836 --> 00:30:02,276 Speaker 1: much how much truly is in our control? Like what 495 00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:04,756 Speaker 1: kind of account of agency are we allowed to give 496 00:30:04,876 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 1: in a moment where like all odds are against you? 497 00:30:08,556 --> 00:30:11,716 Speaker 1: Because I wanted to know the answer, like how much. 498 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:13,836 Speaker 1: Am I supposed to save my own life right now? 499 00:30:14,036 --> 00:30:16,156 Speaker 1: Or am I just supposed to, you know, let go 500 00:30:16,196 --> 00:30:21,036 Speaker 1: and let God? And because over the next couple of years, 501 00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:23,516 Speaker 1: what I would eventually find is that I would have 502 00:30:23,556 --> 00:30:26,476 Speaker 1: to try to save my own life a million more times, 503 00:30:26,836 --> 00:30:29,116 Speaker 1: and that like surrender was just never going to be 504 00:30:31,556 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 1: just like wise, Yeah, you know, it's interesting, Kate, because 505 00:30:36,796 --> 00:30:40,396 Speaker 1: I feel like, um, at some point I did away 506 00:30:40,516 --> 00:30:42,316 Speaker 1: with the view that things in my life are happening 507 00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:45,716 Speaker 1: for a reason. It's it's been so long now I 508 00:30:46,156 --> 00:30:49,556 Speaker 1: no longer I no longer even remember what it was 509 00:30:49,676 --> 00:30:52,276 Speaker 1: like to have that kind of psychological safety net in 510 00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:56,676 Speaker 1: a moment of crisis. And I'm curious to know, you 511 00:30:56,676 --> 00:30:59,996 Speaker 1: know that that discovery was more recent for you, And 512 00:31:00,316 --> 00:31:03,116 Speaker 1: I just wonder what it's what it's like to to 513 00:31:03,236 --> 00:31:06,636 Speaker 1: no longer have that. I mean, yeah, it's so comforting. 514 00:31:06,796 --> 00:31:08,876 Speaker 1: It's so comforting, and it's it's like one of those 515 00:31:08,956 --> 00:31:11,996 Speaker 1: things where like I thought about this, and I wonder 516 00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 1: if you've had similar thoughts. It's like, Okay, I don't 517 00:31:14,756 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 1: believe everything happens for a reason, but like what I 518 00:31:16,636 --> 00:31:18,916 Speaker 1: secretly want my kid to believe it, just for their 519 00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:21,196 Speaker 1: own sake, like what I want Zach? Like, do I 520 00:31:21,276 --> 00:31:23,956 Speaker 1: kind of want Kate's son Zach to believe this just 521 00:31:23,956 --> 00:31:26,876 Speaker 1: just so that he can ease like it can ease 522 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:30,676 Speaker 1: the death of his pain. Yeah. I think the problem 523 00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:34,116 Speaker 1: with that everything happens for a reason is that hypersynthetic 524 00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:40,516 Speaker 1: coherence that it demands that everything have. On the other hand, 525 00:31:42,236 --> 00:31:46,476 Speaker 1: I do believe in a big story about love, you know, 526 00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:50,036 Speaker 1: in which like in our worst moments we are promised 527 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 1: the love of one another, but we can like show 528 00:31:53,836 --> 00:31:56,676 Speaker 1: up and be the person that brings socks and dumb presents, 529 00:31:56,756 --> 00:32:00,396 Speaker 1: and you know, like I have such an intense belief 530 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:04,716 Speaker 1: now that love is one of the only guarantees in 531 00:32:04,756 --> 00:32:06,716 Speaker 1: the awful times. And I guess I always think of 532 00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:09,276 Speaker 1: that now is like what is you know after or 533 00:32:09,356 --> 00:32:12,436 Speaker 1: like the after we've cleared away all that everything happens 534 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:15,956 Speaker 1: for a reason. Like I really I believe that in 535 00:32:15,996 --> 00:32:18,156 Speaker 1: the worst moments of our life the love is there. 536 00:32:18,636 --> 00:32:21,476 Speaker 1: I have never fallen and not felt it, like even 537 00:32:21,516 --> 00:32:24,356 Speaker 1: when I hit the ground. So that is that feels 538 00:32:24,356 --> 00:32:26,236 Speaker 1: to me like not just a hope, but like a 539 00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:29,076 Speaker 1: like a thing I'd be willing to guarantee. My kid 540 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:31,436 Speaker 1: is like even if I was gone, even if the 541 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:33,596 Speaker 1: worst thing happened, Like even if I don't get to 542 00:32:34,036 --> 00:32:37,156 Speaker 1: arrange a future in which we all get to be together, 543 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:42,156 Speaker 1: like I know that love will be there and that 544 00:32:42,156 --> 00:32:48,436 Speaker 1: that feels like a truth well earned. Wow. Yeah, that's 545 00:32:48,596 --> 00:32:55,636 Speaker 1: that's beautiful. Um. And it sounds like you're you're still 546 00:32:55,676 --> 00:33:00,276 Speaker 1: in the business at least of constructing meaning for yourself, right, Like, 547 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:04,516 Speaker 1: like to find the for a reason in the everything happened, 548 00:33:05,556 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 1: you know, even at the universe necessarily, even if universe 549 00:33:09,916 --> 00:33:14,636 Speaker 1: necessary didn't necessarily have that is a plan for you, right, Yeah, yeah, 550 00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:17,676 Speaker 1: I do. It's a really perfect way of putting it. 551 00:33:18,476 --> 00:33:23,236 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, because on the other side of hyper 552 00:33:23,276 --> 00:33:26,676 Speaker 1: causality is not like nialism or despair. I think it's 553 00:33:26,796 --> 00:33:30,276 Speaker 1: just like more empathy for one another. Like if we 554 00:33:30,436 --> 00:33:34,276 Speaker 1: really know that there is not like a fail safe 555 00:33:34,436 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 1: rescue plan for everybody's pain, I think we would sure 556 00:33:37,556 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 1: as hell show up a little faster for one another 557 00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:45,436 Speaker 1: and believe in systems and good policies that prevent so 558 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 1: much of human suffering in the first place. Yeah, would 559 00:33:48,916 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 1: you say that, you know, one of the goals of 560 00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:55,996 Speaker 1: your book and being a religious historian is is showing 561 00:33:56,116 --> 00:34:00,116 Speaker 1: that you can also find some safety and permanence in 562 00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:02,956 Speaker 1: a world where you don't have those beliefs. Has that 563 00:34:03,036 --> 00:34:06,836 Speaker 1: been kind of your mission? Okay, yes, yeah, I really 564 00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:12,836 Speaker 1: like that. Also, just aside, you're so smart, and it's 565 00:34:12,956 --> 00:34:14,956 Speaker 1: just so fun to talk to such a smart personal. 566 00:34:15,116 --> 00:34:17,956 Speaker 1: I'm serious, it makes it so fun. Like I just 567 00:34:17,996 --> 00:34:20,036 Speaker 1: like it makes you stop. I'm like stopping all the 568 00:34:20,036 --> 00:34:21,716 Speaker 1: time because I want to come up with a better answer. 569 00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:24,716 Speaker 1: You know, you don't deserve a shitty answer. I want 570 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:31,116 Speaker 1: to have a better one. Sweet, But like I want 571 00:34:32,196 --> 00:34:36,156 Speaker 1: people to not need a prosperity gospel to move forward. 572 00:34:36,716 --> 00:34:43,036 Speaker 1: I really do that. I think that we have outsourced 573 00:34:44,076 --> 00:34:46,716 Speaker 1: solutions to each other's pain when we forgot that we 574 00:34:46,796 --> 00:34:51,276 Speaker 1: belonged to each other, assuming that if there's enough for everybody, 575 00:34:51,316 --> 00:34:54,716 Speaker 1: that we don't have to make more for each other. 576 00:34:56,156 --> 00:34:59,396 Speaker 1: I think with the right when you, when you can 577 00:34:59,396 --> 00:35:02,836 Speaker 1: pour in other people, you can pour in the knowledge 578 00:35:02,876 --> 00:35:05,996 Speaker 1: that you will never be really truly be alone, that 579 00:35:06,076 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 1: there is love there waiting for you. I don't think 580 00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:16,116 Speaker 1: we'll need quite so many reasons anymore. Kate and I 581 00:35:16,156 --> 00:35:19,916 Speaker 1: recorded this conversation in early twenty twenty two, six years 582 00:35:19,956 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 1: after she was first diagnosed. Kate continues to respond positively 583 00:35:24,276 --> 00:35:27,996 Speaker 1: to her immunotherapy treatments and receives scans every six months. 584 00:35:48,476 --> 00:35:50,676 Speaker 1: Join me next week when I talked to Ethan Cross, 585 00:35:51,036 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 1: an expert on the science of introspection and how our 586 00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:56,996 Speaker 1: inner voice can be a double edged sword. He gives 587 00:35:57,076 --> 00:35:59,116 Speaker 1: us strategies for how we can reign in that inner 588 00:35:59,196 --> 00:36:02,556 Speaker 1: voice when it turns negative and becomes what he calls chatter. 589 00:36:03,356 --> 00:36:05,636 Speaker 1: So something bad happens, we turn our attention in. We're 590 00:36:05,676 --> 00:36:07,236 Speaker 1: to try to make sense of the problem, but we 591 00:36:07,316 --> 00:36:09,836 Speaker 1: get stuck in a negative thought loop. That's what I 592 00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:12,876 Speaker 1: call chatter. You keep on trying to think and work 593 00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:25,276 Speaker 1: through the problem, but you don't make any progress. A 594 00:36:25,356 --> 00:36:28,316 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created written an executive produce 595 00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:31,916 Speaker 1: by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes Tyler 596 00:36:31,996 --> 00:36:36,036 Speaker 1: Green our senior producer, Emily Rosteck, our producer and fact checker, 597 00:36:36,476 --> 00:36:40,196 Speaker 1: Jan Guera, our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our sound engineer, 598 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:44,316 Speaker 1: and Neil Lavelle, our executive producer. Louis Skara wrote our 599 00:36:44,396 --> 00:36:47,756 Speaker 1: theme song and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A 600 00:36:47,796 --> 00:36:50,596 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. 601 00:36:50,756 --> 00:36:55,036 Speaker 1: So big thanks to everyone there, including Nicolemrano, Maggie Taylor, 602 00:36:55,196 --> 00:36:59,316 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Heather Faine, and Carly Nigliori, and of course 603 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:02,836 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 604 00:37:02,876 --> 00:37:05,516 Speaker 1: a slight change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya 605 00:37:05,596 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 1: Schunker Tyler's Back. So I feel like there's an audio issue. 606 00:37:16,596 --> 00:37:18,876 Speaker 1: This one has headphones and this one is looks like 607 00:37:18,876 --> 00:37:21,996 Speaker 1: a microphone. I'm gonna sing all by myself while I 608 00:37:22,036 --> 00:37:24,716 Speaker 1: do it. Just see you can get this come oh 609 00:37:24,756 --> 00:37:29,436 Speaker 1: baa s has this feeling? Does it change at all? 610 00:37:29,556 --> 00:37:34,276 Speaker 1: I don't want to be oh by helping. It's really 611 00:37:34,276 --> 00:37:35,596 Speaker 1: helping when I'm singing, and I feel