1 00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:24,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I once went on a riverboat cruise with my 2 00:00:24,236 --> 00:00:27,556 Speaker 1: husband and some friends. As we chugged along the Connecticut River, 3 00:00:27,716 --> 00:00:30,476 Speaker 1: we enjoyed some picnic food and talked and laughed together. 4 00:00:30,876 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: But I was also a bit distracted by an elderly 5 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 1: couple sitting nearby. They just seemed kind of uninterested in everything. 6 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:40,756 Speaker 1: They didn't seem to take notice of us, their fellow passengers, 7 00:00:41,396 --> 00:00:44,196 Speaker 1: or the gorgeous scenery along the river banks. But what 8 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:47,276 Speaker 1: was most disturbing was that they also seemed really uninterested 9 00:00:47,476 --> 00:00:50,036 Speaker 1: in one another. I don't think they shared a single 10 00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: word the entire trip. When we finally talked, I saw 11 00:00:53,396 --> 00:00:55,956 Speaker 1: the couple's daughter waiting for them on land. She seemed 12 00:00:55,956 --> 00:00:58,556 Speaker 1: excited to know if they'd had fun. You see, she 13 00:00:58,636 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: explained to the boat captain, this was their wedding anniversary. 14 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:05,596 Speaker 1: On the drive home, I couldn't stop thinking about that couple. 15 00:01:05,996 --> 00:01:08,796 Speaker 1: Could any couple fall mute like that? Could it happen 16 00:01:08,836 --> 00:01:12,716 Speaker 1: to you or me? How do we keep the conversation going? 17 00:01:13,756 --> 00:01:16,076 Speaker 1: That's the question I want to address in this next 18 00:01:16,116 --> 00:01:19,596 Speaker 1: installment of our short season on Happiness and Love. I 19 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:22,996 Speaker 1: want to explore how couples can communicate better to build happier, 20 00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:27,636 Speaker 1: healthier relationships, and so I tagged in journalist Charles Duhigg, 21 00:01:28,036 --> 00:01:31,596 Speaker 1: author of a recent book entitled Super Communicators, How to 22 00:01:31,676 --> 00:01:35,276 Speaker 1: Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. Charles is a Pulitzer 23 00:01:35,316 --> 00:01:38,276 Speaker 1: Prize winning author and reporter, someone who has made an 24 00:01:38,436 --> 00:01:42,556 Speaker 1: entire career using words to express complex ideas. But Charles, 25 00:01:42,636 --> 00:01:46,396 Speaker 1: as it turns out, wasn't always a super communicator, particularly 26 00:01:46,556 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: when it came to talking to his wife. 27 00:01:49,076 --> 00:01:51,236 Speaker 2: So I got into this terrible pattern where I would 28 00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:54,276 Speaker 2: come home. My wife and I met each other in college. 29 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:56,716 Speaker 2: We've been married for almost twenty years now, and I'm 30 00:01:56,756 --> 00:01:59,316 Speaker 2: supposed to be a professional communicator because I'm a journalist, 31 00:01:59,516 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 2: And I would come home from work after like a 32 00:02:01,676 --> 00:02:04,116 Speaker 2: hard day, and I would like start complaining about my 33 00:02:04,196 --> 00:02:08,276 Speaker 2: boss or my coworkers, and my wife, very reasonably would 34 00:02:08,276 --> 00:02:11,356 Speaker 2: say something like, why don't you take your boss out 35 00:02:11,356 --> 00:02:13,356 Speaker 2: to lunch so you can get to know each other better, 36 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:16,196 Speaker 2: which is good advice, But instead of being able to 37 00:02:16,196 --> 00:02:18,556 Speaker 2: hear her advice, I would get even more upset, and 38 00:02:18,556 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 2: I would say, like, you know, why aren't you supporting me? 39 00:02:20,516 --> 00:02:22,836 Speaker 2: You're supposed to have my side on this, and be 40 00:02:22,916 --> 00:02:25,676 Speaker 2: outraged on my behalf, and then she would get upset 41 00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:29,076 Speaker 2: because I was acting irrational. And so this pattern, we 42 00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:31,916 Speaker 2: could recognize it, but we couldn't stop it from happening. 43 00:02:31,996 --> 00:02:34,076 Speaker 2: And so I went to these researchers and I said, look, 44 00:02:34,076 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 2: tell me what's going on here, like what's happening? And 45 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:38,316 Speaker 2: they said, well, we're glad you asked, because we're living 46 00:02:38,356 --> 00:02:41,956 Speaker 2: through this golden age of understanding communication in ways that 47 00:02:41,956 --> 00:02:44,956 Speaker 2: we never have before because of advances in neural imaging 48 00:02:45,036 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 2: and data collection. And they said, the biggest problem here 49 00:02:47,596 --> 00:02:49,996 Speaker 2: is that most people think of a discussion as being 50 00:02:50,036 --> 00:02:52,316 Speaker 2: about one thing, right, it's about where to go on 51 00:02:52,396 --> 00:02:55,356 Speaker 2: vacation or what happened today, But actually each discussion is 52 00:02:55,396 --> 00:02:58,916 Speaker 2: made up of multiple different kinds of conversations, and most 53 00:02:58,916 --> 00:03:00,756 Speaker 2: of those conversations they tend to fall in one of 54 00:03:00,836 --> 00:03:04,196 Speaker 2: three big buckets. There's practical conversations right where we're solving 55 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:07,196 Speaker 2: a problem or coming up with a plan. There's emotional 56 00:03:07,236 --> 00:03:10,836 Speaker 2: conversations where my goal is to tell you how I feel, 57 00:03:11,116 --> 00:03:12,836 Speaker 2: but I don't want you to solve my problem. I 58 00:03:12,876 --> 00:03:16,996 Speaker 2: want you to empathize and understand. And then there's social conversations, 59 00:03:17,036 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 2: which are about how we relate to each other, how 60 00:03:18,836 --> 00:03:21,556 Speaker 2: we relate to society and society relates to us. And 61 00:03:21,596 --> 00:03:23,836 Speaker 2: they said, the key here is if you're not having 62 00:03:23,836 --> 00:03:26,436 Speaker 2: the same kind of conversation at the same time, then 63 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:29,276 Speaker 2: you're not really communicating with each other. So when you 64 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:31,516 Speaker 2: came home from work and you were upset and you 65 00:03:31,516 --> 00:03:34,836 Speaker 2: started complaining to your wife, you were having an emotional conversation, 66 00:03:34,996 --> 00:03:37,716 Speaker 2: and then she responded with a practical conversation. She gave 67 00:03:37,756 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 2: you advice, but you couldn't hear that. And when you 68 00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 2: said you couldn't hear that, she couldn't hear you. And 69 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 2: so the key here is what's known as the matching principle, 70 00:03:47,076 --> 00:03:49,716 Speaker 2: that we need to have the same kind of conversation 71 00:03:49,836 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 2: at the same moment if we really want to connect 72 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:52,956 Speaker 2: with each other. 73 00:03:53,396 --> 00:03:55,476 Speaker 1: And what seems super interesting is that you know, you 74 00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:57,676 Speaker 1: were talking about how you struggled with this, and I, 75 00:03:57,716 --> 00:04:00,116 Speaker 1: you know, I can totally relate. But it also seems 76 00:04:00,156 --> 00:04:02,476 Speaker 1: like there are people who are really good at this, right, Like, 77 00:04:02,716 --> 00:04:04,876 Speaker 1: there are definitely people in my life that I can 78 00:04:04,916 --> 00:04:07,716 Speaker 1: call up and whichever mode I feel like I'm in, 79 00:04:07,836 --> 00:04:10,156 Speaker 1: whether I'm you know, kind of really looking for some 80 00:04:10,156 --> 00:04:12,556 Speaker 1: practical advice, or just want to, like, you know, kind 81 00:04:12,556 --> 00:04:15,796 Speaker 1: of moan about something, they kind of instantly recognize it. 82 00:04:15,836 --> 00:04:17,316 Speaker 1: And this was something that you figured out in your 83 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:20,116 Speaker 1: work too, that they're like these important individual differences there. 84 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:22,716 Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. So these are folks who are 85 00:04:22,756 --> 00:04:25,236 Speaker 2: super communicators. And what's interesting is that we're all super 86 00:04:25,236 --> 00:04:27,796 Speaker 2: communicators at one time or another. Some people just can 87 00:04:27,836 --> 00:04:30,516 Speaker 2: do it more consistently than others. So if I was 88 00:04:30,556 --> 00:04:32,116 Speaker 2: to ask you, you know, if you were having a 89 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:34,396 Speaker 2: bad day and you wanted to call someone who you 90 00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:36,676 Speaker 2: know would make you feel better, Like, does someone pop 91 00:04:36,716 --> 00:04:38,436 Speaker 2: into your mind right away about who you would call? 92 00:04:38,996 --> 00:04:42,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's either my good friend April or Ryan, who's 93 00:04:42,076 --> 00:04:44,076 Speaker 1: my producer who's also my very good friend. 94 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:47,756 Speaker 2: There you go. Yeah, So for you, they are super communicators, 95 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:50,476 Speaker 2: and you are probably a super communicator back to them. 96 00:04:50,716 --> 00:04:53,556 Speaker 2: You guys know how to prove to each other that 97 00:04:53,596 --> 00:04:56,076 Speaker 2: you've been listening. You know how to intuit what the 98 00:04:56,116 --> 00:04:59,356 Speaker 2: other person needs. Now, you're exactly right, though, there are 99 00:04:59,396 --> 00:05:02,556 Speaker 2: some people who are super communicators on a more consistent basis. 100 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:06,716 Speaker 2: They're that person for everyone everyone loves to call in them, 101 00:05:06,716 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 2: And one person described it as there's someone who is 102 00:05:09,636 --> 00:05:12,956 Speaker 2: my best friend who everyone else thinks he's their best 103 00:05:13,036 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 2: friend too, right, And it's interesting. And what we know 104 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 2: about these people is that they are not like super charismatic, 105 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:23,636 Speaker 2: They are not extroverts, They are not people who are 106 00:05:23,676 --> 00:05:26,996 Speaker 2: born with this. Oftentimes exactly the opposite. There're folks who, 107 00:05:26,996 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 2: if you ask them, they say, I had trouble making 108 00:05:28,916 --> 00:05:31,316 Speaker 2: friends in high school, or or my parents got divorced 109 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:33,956 Speaker 2: and I had to become the peacemaker between them. There 110 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:35,796 Speaker 2: are people who had to think just a little bit 111 00:05:35,836 --> 00:05:39,276 Speaker 2: more about how communication works. And it's that thinking about 112 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 2: it just half an inch deeper that makes us into supercommunicators. 113 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 2: But it's skills that anyone can learn, their skills that 114 00:05:45,756 --> 00:05:47,796 Speaker 2: we're going to discuss on this podcast, so we can teach, 115 00:05:47,956 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 2: and if anyone learns them, anyone can connect with other people. 116 00:05:50,956 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: And so let's do a deeper dive, kind of neuroscientifically, 117 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 1: into what happens when super communicators are at work, when 118 00:05:56,516 --> 00:05:59,076 Speaker 1: people are really connecting with one another. I know in 119 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:01,636 Speaker 1: your book you talked about this form of kind of 120 00:06:01,676 --> 00:06:04,196 Speaker 1: neural entrainment of what is that and how does it 121 00:06:04,196 --> 00:06:05,956 Speaker 1: show that communication is working so well? 122 00:06:06,036 --> 00:06:08,756 Speaker 2: I love this and this is something that we've all experienced, 123 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:12,276 Speaker 2: which is communication. Is Homo Sapien's superpower, right. It is 124 00:06:12,276 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 2: what has caused our species to succeed so well, and 125 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:17,796 Speaker 2: it's what allowed us to build families and then cultures 126 00:06:17,836 --> 00:06:21,156 Speaker 2: and societies and eventually cities and countries. And the way 127 00:06:21,196 --> 00:06:24,156 Speaker 2: that it evolved is that we actually developed little pleasure 128 00:06:24,236 --> 00:06:27,676 Speaker 2: centers that get activated when we connect with someone else. 129 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 2: So what's actually happening there, Well, what we know from 130 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 2: experiments and this a lot of this comes from Talia 131 00:06:32,956 --> 00:06:36,116 Speaker 2: Wheatley who's at Dartmouth, and Uri Hassan who's at Princeton, 132 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:39,676 Speaker 2: is that when we actually connect with each other through communication, 133 00:06:40,036 --> 00:06:43,796 Speaker 2: our bodies and our brains reflect that connection. So right now, 134 00:06:43,836 --> 00:06:46,356 Speaker 2: even though we're separated by thousands of miles, if we 135 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:50,116 Speaker 2: could measure it, our eyes are probably dilating at similar rates. 136 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:53,196 Speaker 2: Our breath patterns are starting to match each other, even 137 00:06:53,236 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 2: though we're not in the same room together. Most importantly, 138 00:06:56,196 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 2: what's happening inside our brains is becoming similar. As I'm 139 00:06:59,516 --> 00:07:03,676 Speaker 2: describing something, you're experiencing the same emotion or idea that 140 00:07:03,716 --> 00:07:07,276 Speaker 2: I'm describing, and vice versa, and our neural activities beginning 141 00:07:07,316 --> 00:07:09,116 Speaker 2: to look more and more similar, and the more similar 142 00:07:09,276 --> 00:07:12,116 Speaker 2: or it gets, the better we understand each other. That's 143 00:07:12,116 --> 00:07:15,476 Speaker 2: what neural entrainment is. And when it happens, it feels wonderful. 144 00:07:15,516 --> 00:07:17,916 Speaker 2: Everyone knows that experience, Right when you've had a great 145 00:07:17,996 --> 00:07:21,276 Speaker 2: conversation and you just feel like you're on cloud nine afterwards. 146 00:07:21,876 --> 00:07:24,636 Speaker 2: That's actually a biochemical reaction. Your body is having to 147 00:07:24,836 --> 00:07:28,476 Speaker 2: encourage you to try and have those conversations because they've 148 00:07:28,476 --> 00:07:30,876 Speaker 2: been so successful at helping our species succeed. 149 00:07:31,276 --> 00:07:34,036 Speaker 1: So what did neuroscientists learn when they started looking at 150 00:07:34,076 --> 00:07:36,556 Speaker 1: who's better at this neural entrainment? Were there some particular 151 00:07:36,676 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: characteristics of people who did it better? Like what did 152 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:39,396 Speaker 1: they figure out? 153 00:07:39,556 --> 00:07:41,716 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, a guy named Bose Ivers, who working with 154 00:07:41,756 --> 00:07:44,636 Speaker 2: Talia at Dartmouth, did this really fascinating study where he 155 00:07:44,676 --> 00:07:46,716 Speaker 2: would bring strangers into a room and put them into 156 00:07:46,716 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 2: groups and have them watch these movie clips that were 157 00:07:49,516 --> 00:07:51,836 Speaker 2: totally confusing and in fact, they were in foreign languages 158 00:07:51,836 --> 00:07:53,676 Speaker 2: and there was no subtitles and the sound was off. 159 00:07:53,756 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 2: And then you'd have them talk to each other and 160 00:07:55,636 --> 00:07:57,596 Speaker 2: you'd scan their brains while they were watching it, and 161 00:07:57,596 --> 00:07:59,596 Speaker 2: then also scan their brains afterwards. And he found that 162 00:07:59,836 --> 00:08:02,036 Speaker 2: when people talk to each other, the way that they 163 00:08:02,076 --> 00:08:04,876 Speaker 2: reacted to the movie clips became very similar. Right that 164 00:08:05,156 --> 00:08:07,756 Speaker 2: they achieved neural and trainment in talking about the movie 165 00:08:07,756 --> 00:08:09,796 Speaker 2: clips that allowed them to connect with each other. But 166 00:08:09,876 --> 00:08:14,716 Speaker 2: some groups became much more entrained, much more synchronous than others, 167 00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 2: and in those groups with someone special in those groups 168 00:08:17,436 --> 00:08:20,716 Speaker 2: was a supercommunicator. And one of the things that supercommunicators 169 00:08:20,796 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 2: do is they tend to ask more questions, like ten 170 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:27,476 Speaker 2: to twenty times as many questions as the average person. 171 00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:29,916 Speaker 2: But many of them are things like, ah, that's interesting, 172 00:08:29,956 --> 00:08:32,036 Speaker 2: what'd you think about that? Or oh yeah, would you 173 00:08:32,036 --> 00:08:34,476 Speaker 2: say next, Like these little questions that we don't even 174 00:08:34,516 --> 00:08:37,756 Speaker 2: really register as questions, but they invite us into a conversation. 175 00:08:38,036 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 2: They also did this thing where they would repeat back 176 00:08:40,836 --> 00:08:44,316 Speaker 2: or positively reinforce what other people said. So someone would 177 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:46,076 Speaker 2: say here's my idea, and they'd say, oh, I really 178 00:08:46,116 --> 00:08:48,076 Speaker 2: like that idea, or they'd say, you know, it's interesting. 179 00:08:48,076 --> 00:08:49,716 Speaker 2: What I hear you saying is this, like tell me 180 00:08:49,716 --> 00:08:51,316 Speaker 2: if I'm getting this wrong, you said X and Y 181 00:08:51,356 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 2: and z. This is known as looping for understanding, and 182 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:58,276 Speaker 2: it's this amazing technique, particularly in conflicts. But most importantly, 183 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:01,596 Speaker 2: what supercommunicators did in those groups that caused everyone else 184 00:09:01,716 --> 00:09:04,876 Speaker 2: to become synchronized, helped other people speak up and hear 185 00:09:04,956 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 2: each other, is that they showed that they wanted to connect. 186 00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:12,196 Speaker 2: They did things like laughed when other people laughed, or 187 00:09:12,236 --> 00:09:15,716 Speaker 2: got serious when other people got serious. They changed how 188 00:09:15,716 --> 00:09:18,836 Speaker 2: they were communicating to match the kind of conversation that 189 00:09:18,956 --> 00:09:23,276 Speaker 2: others brought up and invited them to match back in return. So, 190 00:09:23,316 --> 00:09:26,276 Speaker 2: in one conversation, one of the participants brought up they 191 00:09:26,356 --> 00:09:28,316 Speaker 2: were talking about this movie clip where a kid looks 192 00:09:28,356 --> 00:09:30,796 Speaker 2: like he's abandoned, and this participant says something that makes 193 00:09:30,836 --> 00:09:33,676 Speaker 2: you think like, probably he knows abandonment firsthand. He knows 194 00:09:33,716 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 2: what it's like. And the conversation was really jovial up 195 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:38,236 Speaker 2: to that moment, and as soon as he says that, 196 00:09:38,676 --> 00:09:41,796 Speaker 2: the super communicator says, huh, yeah, that can be really 197 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,596 Speaker 2: really hard, like tell me what you think about that, 198 00:09:44,756 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 2: Like he gets serious. He matches that solemnity, and within 199 00:09:48,636 --> 00:09:52,516 Speaker 2: forty five seconds, everyone else in that group was being 200 00:09:52,556 --> 00:09:56,236 Speaker 2: supportive and empathetic was talking about the seriousness of this. 201 00:09:56,836 --> 00:10:00,036 Speaker 2: That's what super communicators do. They match others. They invite 202 00:10:00,076 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 2: them to match back, and they show they want to 203 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 2: connect and it's really powerful. 204 00:10:04,596 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 1: And so this must have huge implications for the kinds 205 00:10:06,836 --> 00:10:09,516 Speaker 1: of things that happened to superper communicators, Like they're so 206 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:11,996 Speaker 1: good at this, Like do we know anything about what 207 00:10:12,076 --> 00:10:13,316 Speaker 1: happens in their real life too? 208 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:17,116 Speaker 2: You won't be surprised to learn they're very popular and successful, right, 209 00:10:17,236 --> 00:10:20,516 Speaker 2: Like we have data on what supercommunicators are like outside 210 00:10:20,556 --> 00:10:23,796 Speaker 2: of the laboratory. And of course they are the people 211 00:10:23,836 --> 00:10:26,916 Speaker 2: who are asked to run for office or given leadership roles. 212 00:10:26,916 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 2: They're the people everyone turns to when they have a 213 00:10:29,196 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 2: problem or or they're always invited along because they just 214 00:10:32,516 --> 00:10:35,276 Speaker 2: know adding them to the conversation will make everyone feel better. 215 00:10:35,516 --> 00:10:38,396 Speaker 2: Because of the Harvard Adult Health study that was done, 216 00:10:38,516 --> 00:10:40,876 Speaker 2: the Harvard Adult Health Happiness Study, I guess is what 217 00:10:40,876 --> 00:10:43,796 Speaker 2: they're calling it. Now, we know that the folks who 218 00:10:43,836 --> 00:10:45,836 Speaker 2: do this, who tend to have a lot of connections, 219 00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:49,996 Speaker 2: They live longer than the average person, They're happier as 220 00:10:49,996 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 2: they get older. They tend to be more successful because 221 00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:55,316 Speaker 2: people just bring them opportunities. As I mentioned, communication is 222 00:10:55,356 --> 00:10:59,636 Speaker 2: our superpower, and super communicators have that superpower. It is 223 00:10:59,676 --> 00:11:01,476 Speaker 2: something any of us can learn to do, and its 224 00:11:01,476 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 2: dividends are enormous. 225 00:11:03,756 --> 00:11:06,276 Speaker 1: And one of those dividends is the ability to quickly 226 00:11:06,316 --> 00:11:10,436 Speaker 1: build bonds with new people. To the break, we'll learn 227 00:11:10,476 --> 00:11:13,876 Speaker 1: how adopting the habits of supercommunicators can help us navigate 228 00:11:13,916 --> 00:11:17,516 Speaker 1: the minefield that is dating. The Happiness Lab will be 229 00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:27,396 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Before we start swiping on a 230 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: dating app, we usually set up a profile that makes 231 00:11:30,116 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: us look really cool. We upload pictures of us wearing 232 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:36,716 Speaker 1: nice clothing, living the high life, maybe even traveling to 233 00:11:36,796 --> 00:11:40,356 Speaker 1: exotic locations. We try to share all our accomplishments and 234 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:43,796 Speaker 1: interesting activities, so it seems like we should want to 235 00:11:43,876 --> 00:11:46,276 Speaker 1: keep that vibe going when we get to the dat itself, 236 00:11:46,796 --> 00:11:50,676 Speaker 1: sharing stories that make our lives look fun and adventure filled. Well, 237 00:11:50,716 --> 00:11:53,756 Speaker 1: according to Charles Douhig, that's not what a super communicator 238 00:11:53,756 --> 00:11:54,116 Speaker 1: would do. 239 00:11:54,836 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 2: It's all about the interaction. And my guess is, and 240 00:11:57,516 --> 00:11:59,276 Speaker 2: tell me if I'm getting this wrong, is that when 241 00:11:59,316 --> 00:12:01,476 Speaker 2: you and your husband met each other, it's kind of 242 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:03,516 Speaker 2: like when me and my wife met each other, that 243 00:12:04,196 --> 00:12:09,516 Speaker 2: we walked away from the conversations feeling special because the 244 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:12,236 Speaker 2: other person told us we were special, not because they 245 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:14,636 Speaker 2: were special, but because they told us we were special. 246 00:12:14,716 --> 00:12:17,436 Speaker 1: So give me an example from your early like how 247 00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: you guys met and how you got first get together, 248 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:20,356 Speaker 1: first date conversation. 249 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:23,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we met in college and I was studying 250 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:26,316 Speaker 2: intellectual history at Yale, and so I was super into 251 00:12:26,356 --> 00:12:29,756 Speaker 2: like postmodernism, and I just babbled about postmodernism for like 252 00:12:29,876 --> 00:12:33,316 Speaker 2: ten minutes, and she said, she's the kindest woman on earth. 253 00:12:33,356 --> 00:12:36,916 Speaker 2: She said, that's really really interesting. I've never heard that before, 254 00:12:36,956 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 2: and it doesn't make any sense to me, but I 255 00:12:39,476 --> 00:12:43,156 Speaker 2: like to learn more. Of course, she was just being nice, 256 00:12:43,556 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 2: but as a result, I felt like the smartest person 257 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:47,356 Speaker 2: on the face of the planet. Like I felt like 258 00:12:47,436 --> 00:12:50,116 Speaker 2: I was. I was so special. And here's one of 259 00:12:50,156 --> 00:12:51,596 Speaker 2: the things that we know so we know about when 260 00:12:51,596 --> 00:12:53,836 Speaker 2: it comes to romantic relationships, particularly at the start of 261 00:12:53,916 --> 00:12:56,556 Speaker 2: romantic relationships. There are two things you can do that 262 00:12:56,676 --> 00:12:59,036 Speaker 2: is more powerful than anything else, and then a third 263 00:12:59,076 --> 00:13:02,036 Speaker 2: thing that's really effective. The first thing you can do 264 00:13:02,276 --> 00:13:05,916 Speaker 2: is ask questions, and some questions are more powerful than others, 265 00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:09,356 Speaker 2: and these are known as deep questions. A deep question 266 00:13:09,676 --> 00:13:12,716 Speaker 2: is something that asks us about our values, or our beliefs, 267 00:13:12,796 --> 00:13:17,276 Speaker 2: or our experiences and Oftentimes a deep question doesn't appear deep. Right. 268 00:13:17,316 --> 00:13:19,396 Speaker 2: If we're on a first date and I say what 269 00:13:19,436 --> 00:13:20,876 Speaker 2: do you do for a living? You say I'm a lawyer, 270 00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:23,396 Speaker 2: And I say, oh, that's really interesting, Like what made 271 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:25,676 Speaker 2: you decide to go to law school? Like what's the 272 00:13:25,716 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 2: best case you ever had? Those questions are asking you 273 00:13:28,876 --> 00:13:31,796 Speaker 2: to tell me about your experiences, the values that brought 274 00:13:31,836 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 2: you to law school, the beliefs that you carry into 275 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 2: your work. And when you answer those questions, you're going 276 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:40,556 Speaker 2: to tell me something incredibly valuable about yourself. You're going 277 00:13:40,596 --> 00:13:42,956 Speaker 2: to tell me something meaningful. So the first step that 278 00:13:43,036 --> 00:13:45,596 Speaker 2: we can do is teach ourselves not to ask about facts, 279 00:13:45,996 --> 00:13:50,316 Speaker 2: but instead to ask essentially about feelings about people's values 280 00:13:50,356 --> 00:13:52,396 Speaker 2: and beliefs and their experiences. 281 00:13:52,756 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 1: And there's some really cool experiments to show the power 282 00:13:55,316 --> 00:13:58,356 Speaker 1: of this. One was a study that was actually about 283 00:13:58,396 --> 00:14:00,356 Speaker 1: speed dating and like what you can do in the 284 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:02,116 Speaker 1: context of speed dating, So tell me a little bit 285 00:14:02,116 --> 00:14:02,516 Speaker 1: about that. 286 00:14:02,596 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I love this study. And there's been 287 00:14:04,436 --> 00:14:06,596 Speaker 2: a couple of times that they've collected this data. So 288 00:14:06,676 --> 00:14:08,756 Speaker 2: what they did is they had all these speed daters 289 00:14:08,796 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 2: come to and they kept track of which speed dates 290 00:14:12,076 --> 00:14:15,756 Speaker 2: were successful and which weren't. Basically, do people say that 291 00:14:15,756 --> 00:14:17,956 Speaker 2: they want to have a follow up date, And what 292 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:20,716 Speaker 2: they found is that the number one thing that made 293 00:14:20,876 --> 00:14:24,116 Speaker 2: a speed date successful is if one person asked a 294 00:14:24,236 --> 00:14:27,396 Speaker 2: question within like the first thirty seconds, and asked a 295 00:14:27,396 --> 00:14:31,116 Speaker 2: deep question, then when the other person would respond, something 296 00:14:31,156 --> 00:14:36,476 Speaker 2: important would happen. The asker would oftentimes answer that same 297 00:14:36,596 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 2: question for themselves, Oh, it's interesting. You became a lawyer 298 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:41,636 Speaker 2: for that reason. I became a doctor because I also 299 00:14:41,676 --> 00:14:44,556 Speaker 2: love helping people. Right, it was very natural to share 300 00:14:44,556 --> 00:14:49,876 Speaker 2: something about themselves, to engage in emotional reciprocity or vulnerability reciprocity, 301 00:14:50,236 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 2: and then they would inevitably do something to prove that 302 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 2: they had been listening to what the person had said. 303 00:14:57,116 --> 00:14:59,556 Speaker 2: Sometimes that was asking a follow up question. Follow Up 304 00:14:59,636 --> 00:15:03,196 Speaker 2: questions are incredibly powerful because they show that I'm paying attention. 305 00:15:03,236 --> 00:15:06,196 Speaker 2: They show that I'm curious in you. Sometimes it's what's 306 00:15:06,196 --> 00:15:09,876 Speaker 2: known as looping for understanding, where I peep back what 307 00:15:10,036 --> 00:15:12,036 Speaker 2: you said in my own words and I ask if 308 00:15:12,036 --> 00:15:15,596 Speaker 2: I got it right. These behaviors of proving we are 309 00:15:15,636 --> 00:15:20,316 Speaker 2: listening are incredibly meaningful, particularly if we're in a stressful 310 00:15:20,356 --> 00:15:23,236 Speaker 2: situation like a fight or a first date. Part of 311 00:15:23,276 --> 00:15:25,276 Speaker 2: what we're wondering in our head is like, is this 312 00:15:25,316 --> 00:15:27,756 Speaker 2: person actually listening to me? Or are they just waiting 313 00:15:27,756 --> 00:15:31,476 Speaker 2: their turn to speak? And speaking is such a cognitively 314 00:15:31,516 --> 00:15:34,396 Speaker 2: intense activity. We don't notice if the person is staring 315 00:15:34,436 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 2: into our eyes, we don't notice that they're nodding their head. 316 00:15:36,796 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 2: We're focused on the words coming out of our mouth. 317 00:15:39,356 --> 00:15:42,356 Speaker 2: So it's what they do after we stop talking that 318 00:15:42,476 --> 00:15:45,156 Speaker 2: proves to us that they've been listening to us. And 319 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:46,236 Speaker 2: that's really powerful. 320 00:15:46,436 --> 00:15:48,036 Speaker 1: That's so interesting because I feel like we get this 321 00:15:48,156 --> 00:15:50,796 Speaker 1: advice of like, to show that you're listening, really look 322 00:15:50,876 --> 00:15:53,276 Speaker 1: someone in the eyes or kind of nod, you know, 323 00:15:53,316 --> 00:15:56,036 Speaker 1: while they're speaking. But the evidence seems to suggest that 324 00:15:56,036 --> 00:15:58,316 Speaker 1: that's not really doing anything because people can't pay attention 325 00:15:58,356 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: to that in the moment. What they have to pay 326 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:02,676 Speaker 1: attention to is after you're done and you've told your story. 327 00:16:02,916 --> 00:16:04,916 Speaker 1: Is how people follow up is what they say afterwards. 328 00:16:04,956 --> 00:16:05,916 Speaker 1: That seems to really that's. 329 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,436 Speaker 2: Nice, exactly right, that's exactly right, And that doesn't mean 330 00:16:08,476 --> 00:16:10,716 Speaker 2: you shouldn't not and you shouldn't look people in the 331 00:16:10,756 --> 00:16:13,916 Speaker 2: eye because because it's oftentimes encouraging to get that. But 332 00:16:14,076 --> 00:16:16,276 Speaker 2: next time you're talking to like a small group of people, 333 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 2: and after you finished speaking, try and remember who was 334 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:22,996 Speaker 2: looking at you and who wasn't. And you'll have no idea, 335 00:16:23,156 --> 00:16:25,636 Speaker 2: right because we just don't pay attention. But that person 336 00:16:25,676 --> 00:16:27,756 Speaker 2: who says, oh, that's so interesting what I heard you say? 337 00:16:27,956 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 2: Was that person we remember? 338 00:16:30,036 --> 00:16:31,836 Speaker 1: And so broadly, it seems like what you're trying to 339 00:16:31,876 --> 00:16:34,316 Speaker 1: do to kind of in an early conversation is to 340 00:16:34,396 --> 00:16:37,596 Speaker 1: really make sure you're actually listening and learning about somebody. 341 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:39,116 Speaker 1: If you sort of set up this goal that the 342 00:16:39,156 --> 00:16:42,156 Speaker 1: conversation is really for learning about the person and specifically 343 00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:45,436 Speaker 1: learning not facts, but their values and their beliefs, that's 344 00:16:45,476 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that can get communication off the ground. 345 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: That's what super communicators seemed to be doing. 346 00:16:49,556 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 2: That's exactly right, and that was an excellent looping for understanding. 347 00:16:52,516 --> 00:16:57,076 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I totally conversation, I totally totally. 348 00:16:57,156 --> 00:16:59,276 Speaker 2: I totally believe you're listening to me. But it is 349 00:16:59,316 --> 00:17:02,356 Speaker 2: super interesting in that once we get in the habit 350 00:17:02,396 --> 00:17:04,556 Speaker 2: of this. So once I was exposed to this idea 351 00:17:04,596 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 2: for looping for understanding, and there's these three steps, right, 352 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 2: ask a question, a deep questes, repeat back what you 353 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:13,676 Speaker 2: just heard in your own words. Then, and this is 354 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 2: really helpful in a conflict, ask if you got it right. 355 00:17:16,716 --> 00:17:19,316 Speaker 2: Once we start doing that, it almost becomes habitual, like 356 00:17:19,356 --> 00:17:21,556 Speaker 2: it was for you right to sort of repeat back 357 00:17:21,636 --> 00:17:23,956 Speaker 2: what you've heard. And what it shows the other person 358 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 2: is not only do I want to connect with you, 359 00:17:25,836 --> 00:17:29,876 Speaker 2: which is what's important, but also it creates trust, and 360 00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:33,396 Speaker 2: it creates a sense of intimacy because if you believe 361 00:17:33,396 --> 00:17:36,116 Speaker 2: that I'm listening closely to you, you'll want to listen 362 00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,796 Speaker 2: back to me. It also helps me be present in 363 00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:41,916 Speaker 2: that moment, because you're exactly right. If I realize the 364 00:17:41,996 --> 00:17:45,316 Speaker 2: point of this conversation is to have a learning conversation, 365 00:17:45,756 --> 00:17:48,476 Speaker 2: to understand you and to help you understand me, not 366 00:17:48,596 --> 00:17:51,276 Speaker 2: to convince you of something, not to change your mind, 367 00:17:51,436 --> 00:17:53,996 Speaker 2: not to convince you that I'm the greatest thing on earth, 368 00:17:54,036 --> 00:17:56,516 Speaker 2: but just to understand you and help you understand me. 369 00:17:57,276 --> 00:18:00,916 Speaker 2: Then it doesn't matter if we walk away still disagreeing 370 00:18:00,956 --> 00:18:02,956 Speaker 2: with each other, or if we walk away and say, ah, 371 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:05,836 Speaker 2: I'm not interested in the second date. The conversation has 372 00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 2: been a success if we understand each other. 373 00:18:09,236 --> 00:18:11,556 Speaker 1: The best way to understand each other differs from what 374 00:18:11,596 --> 00:18:13,716 Speaker 1: we often think. You know, these days, we hear a 375 00:18:13,716 --> 00:18:16,716 Speaker 1: lot about perspective taking, you know, not just in relationships, 376 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 1: but I think even in times of conflict in things, 377 00:18:19,116 --> 00:18:20,756 Speaker 1: you know, we have to perspective take on what the 378 00:18:20,796 --> 00:18:23,396 Speaker 1: other side thinks or what the other person thinks. But 379 00:18:23,436 --> 00:18:26,356 Speaker 1: the research shows that there's something better than perspective taking. 380 00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:28,756 Speaker 1: Explain what this other thing is because it seems to 381 00:18:28,756 --> 00:18:31,316 Speaker 1: fit really well with the kinds of strategies we're talking 382 00:18:31,316 --> 00:18:31,796 Speaker 1: about here. 383 00:18:32,076 --> 00:18:33,956 Speaker 2: And this work comes from Nick Appley at the University 384 00:18:33,996 --> 00:18:36,916 Speaker 2: of Chicago, who's just wonderful and just for anyone who 385 00:18:36,956 --> 00:18:39,836 Speaker 2: hasn't heard that phrase perspective taking before, there's this theory 386 00:18:39,876 --> 00:18:42,076 Speaker 2: in psychology that the best way to communicate is to 387 00:18:42,116 --> 00:18:44,596 Speaker 2: put yourself in someone else's shoes, right, to try and 388 00:18:45,156 --> 00:18:47,876 Speaker 2: take their perspective on a problem. You know, I'm a man, 389 00:18:47,996 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 2: but like I'm going to try and put myself in 390 00:18:50,076 --> 00:18:52,676 Speaker 2: my wife's shoes and see the world from her perspective. 391 00:18:53,636 --> 00:18:55,236 Speaker 2: The truth of the matter is, and study after study 392 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 2: shows us I can't do that. I have no idea 393 00:18:57,596 --> 00:18:59,596 Speaker 2: what it's like to be a woman in today's world, right, 394 00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:03,436 Speaker 2: and if I think I do, I'm kind of fooling myself. 395 00:19:03,836 --> 00:19:05,396 Speaker 2: But what I can do instead is this thing called 396 00:19:05,396 --> 00:19:09,756 Speaker 2: perspective getting, which is when I ask you what it's 397 00:19:09,916 --> 00:19:12,636 Speaker 2: like to be you. When I say, and I can 398 00:19:12,676 --> 00:19:14,596 Speaker 2: say this to Laurie, like, you know, my wife is 399 00:19:14,636 --> 00:19:18,876 Speaker 2: an academic and you're a woman in science, I'm just wondering, like, 400 00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,436 Speaker 2: what's it like? Like what are the challenges that you 401 00:19:21,476 --> 00:19:23,996 Speaker 2: face that I might not understand about being a woman 402 00:19:24,836 --> 00:19:27,956 Speaker 2: at a university. What are the challenges of being a 403 00:19:28,036 --> 00:19:31,956 Speaker 2: mom of you know, being someone who has outside interests. 404 00:19:32,556 --> 00:19:35,076 Speaker 2: Instead of trying to assume that I can stand in 405 00:19:35,076 --> 00:19:37,716 Speaker 2: your shoes, let me just ask you what it's like 406 00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 2: to be in your shoes. This is where if I 407 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 2: can repeat it back, it becomes really powerful. It's not 408 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,156 Speaker 2: only to show you that I'm listening, It's to force 409 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:48,036 Speaker 2: myself to listen. Because the truth of the matter is, sometimes 410 00:19:48,036 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 2: even if we want to listen, we just get in 411 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:51,876 Speaker 2: our own way, right. We start coming up with counter 412 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:53,676 Speaker 2: arguments in our head. We start thinking about what we 413 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:56,556 Speaker 2: should say next so that we seem smart. But if 414 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:58,836 Speaker 2: my assignment is I need to listen closely enough that 415 00:19:58,836 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 2: I can repeat back what you just said, I'll actually 416 00:20:01,316 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 2: listen closely enough. 417 00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 1: And that kind of close listening also contributes to the 418 00:20:04,876 --> 00:20:06,676 Speaker 1: second thing that I think could be so powerful about 419 00:20:06,716 --> 00:20:10,036 Speaker 1: perspective getting, which is it increases people's trust. Right, there's 420 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:13,276 Speaker 1: a kind of emotional contagion and an emotional bond that happens. 421 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:15,436 Speaker 1: Can I explain with some of the research shows why 422 00:20:15,476 --> 00:20:16,356 Speaker 1: that's so powerful. 423 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 2: So one of the things that happens when we engage 424 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:23,556 Speaker 2: in perspective getting is that oftentimes people will reveal something 425 00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 2: vulnerable about themselves. Now, when I say vulnerable, it doesn't 426 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:30,316 Speaker 2: mean like they're crying or they're admitting that they killed someone. 427 00:20:30,556 --> 00:20:32,436 Speaker 2: It can be something as small as saying, you know, 428 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:35,716 Speaker 2: I became a doctor because I like helping people. I 429 00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 2: might not care about your judgment, but I'm giving you 430 00:20:38,356 --> 00:20:40,516 Speaker 2: an opportunity to judge me. You could be like, look, 431 00:20:40,596 --> 00:20:42,836 Speaker 2: money matters more than whether you should help people. Right, 432 00:20:43,316 --> 00:20:45,276 Speaker 2: offering you an opportunity to judge me, even if I 433 00:20:45,276 --> 00:20:47,716 Speaker 2: don't care about it feels vulnerable. And there's this thing 434 00:20:47,716 --> 00:20:51,716 Speaker 2: that happens of emotional contagion, which is vulnerability is the 435 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:56,316 Speaker 2: loudest form of communication. If I say something vulnerable, you 436 00:20:56,356 --> 00:20:59,476 Speaker 2: will listen really, really closely, to what I'm saying, and 437 00:20:59,756 --> 00:21:02,836 Speaker 2: then if you say something vulnerable in return, if you 438 00:21:02,876 --> 00:21:05,676 Speaker 2: share something about yourself, I will listen really closely. And 439 00:21:05,716 --> 00:21:09,396 Speaker 2: that emotional contagion, once it occurs, makes us feel more 440 00:21:09,396 --> 00:21:12,596 Speaker 2: trusting and liking of each other. It's hardwired into our brains. 441 00:21:12,636 --> 00:21:15,116 Speaker 2: We almost can't even overcome it. I'm sure everyone has 442 00:21:15,116 --> 00:21:17,796 Speaker 2: had this experience where it's someone you really dislike, you 443 00:21:17,916 --> 00:21:21,916 Speaker 2: disagree with them, and then they say something so real 444 00:21:22,076 --> 00:21:25,476 Speaker 2: and honest, and you just find yourself sympathizing with them 445 00:21:25,596 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 2: or liking them a little bit more. That's because we 446 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:31,476 Speaker 2: can't fight this emotional contagion, and so we should use 447 00:21:31,516 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 2: it to help us bond with other people and connect 448 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:33,636 Speaker 2: with them. 449 00:21:33,836 --> 00:21:36,196 Speaker 1: Explain this sort of fast friends experiment. I think this 450 00:21:36,236 --> 00:21:38,676 Speaker 1: is something that's even entered the public consciousness. People have 451 00:21:38,716 --> 00:21:41,356 Speaker 1: heard about these thirty six questions. Talk about what the 452 00:21:41,396 --> 00:21:44,956 Speaker 1: science really shows and how increasing vulnerability can be powerful 453 00:21:44,996 --> 00:21:47,076 Speaker 1: for like maybe even romantic connection. 454 00:21:47,476 --> 00:21:49,916 Speaker 2: Oh, I love this study. So these two researchers who 455 00:21:49,916 --> 00:21:52,516 Speaker 2: are married I'm Elaine and Arthur Aren went and they 456 00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 2: did this experiment. They wanted to try and figure out 457 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:56,756 Speaker 2: if they could make strangers into friends. So they would 458 00:21:56,756 --> 00:21:59,276 Speaker 2: bring all these strangers into a room, just pairs of them, 459 00:21:59,356 --> 00:22:01,316 Speaker 2: you know, one by one, sit down with someone else 460 00:22:01,356 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 2: you don't know, and they gave them this list of 461 00:22:03,596 --> 00:22:06,916 Speaker 2: thirty six questions to ask and answer right back and forth, 462 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:09,116 Speaker 2: and it would usually take about forty five or fifty minutes. 463 00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:11,916 Speaker 2: And this is all pre internet, and then people would 464 00:22:11,956 --> 00:22:14,916 Speaker 2: just go their separate ways. So then seven weeks later 465 00:22:14,956 --> 00:22:17,596 Speaker 2: they tracked down everyone that had come into that room 466 00:22:18,076 --> 00:22:20,156 Speaker 2: and they asked them, did you ever talk to that 467 00:22:20,156 --> 00:22:22,916 Speaker 2: person again? And they found that seventy percent of the 468 00:22:22,916 --> 00:22:26,516 Speaker 2: people who had participated went and they found the other 469 00:22:26,636 --> 00:22:28,796 Speaker 2: person so that they could go out to beers with 470 00:22:28,836 --> 00:22:30,996 Speaker 2: them or go see a movie together because they felt 471 00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 2: so close to them. And this is back when it 472 00:22:32,956 --> 00:22:34,676 Speaker 2: was hard to find other people right you had to go. 473 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:36,556 Speaker 2: Some people would like go through the phone book and 474 00:22:36,556 --> 00:22:38,596 Speaker 2: call everyone with a similar name until they found the 475 00:22:38,676 --> 00:22:41,476 Speaker 2: right one. They would wander up and down dorms looking 476 00:22:41,476 --> 00:22:43,636 Speaker 2: for the person that they had talked to, because after 477 00:22:43,676 --> 00:22:46,116 Speaker 2: forty five minutes of asking and answering these questions, they 478 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:49,036 Speaker 2: felt really close. In fact, more than one couple ended 479 00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:52,716 Speaker 2: up getting married who met each other through this experiment. Now, 480 00:22:52,756 --> 00:22:56,356 Speaker 2: what's special about those questions? Each of those questions was, 481 00:22:56,436 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 2: in its own way, a deep question that asked people 482 00:22:59,916 --> 00:23:02,836 Speaker 2: to reveal something about themselves, and then, because they had 483 00:23:02,876 --> 00:23:05,636 Speaker 2: to go back and forth answering them, the other person 484 00:23:05,636 --> 00:23:08,796 Speaker 2: could reciprocate that vulnerability. So some of them were simple, 485 00:23:08,836 --> 00:23:10,436 Speaker 2: like if you were having a dinner party and you 486 00:23:10,476 --> 00:23:13,636 Speaker 2: could invite anyone from history, who would you invite? Well, 487 00:23:13,636 --> 00:23:15,556 Speaker 2: that tells you who I admire, right, it tells you 488 00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:17,876 Speaker 2: a little bit about my beliefs. Some of them were 489 00:23:17,916 --> 00:23:20,876 Speaker 2: really deep, like described the last time you cried in 490 00:23:20,916 --> 00:23:24,356 Speaker 2: front of another person. When I do that, I'm obviously 491 00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:28,756 Speaker 2: exposing something really meaningful about myself. And if I expose that, 492 00:23:29,476 --> 00:23:31,716 Speaker 2: and then you answer the same question and you expose 493 00:23:31,796 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 2: something about yourself, we are going to feel closer to 494 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,876 Speaker 2: each other, even if we have nothing in common. If 495 00:23:37,876 --> 00:23:40,596 Speaker 2: you do that in speed date, you're definitely going to 496 00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:41,316 Speaker 2: get another date. 497 00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:44,116 Speaker 1: But the key is that we have to respond to 498 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:47,596 Speaker 1: those emotional moments. Well, that's exactly, and this is something 499 00:23:47,676 --> 00:23:49,676 Speaker 1: you've also talked about in your book. And some of 500 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:52,436 Speaker 1: the great science on this came from a domain that 501 00:23:52,516 --> 00:23:54,396 Speaker 1: I didn't expect. You know, when I was reading your 502 00:23:54,476 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: Super Communicators book. I was expecting to see all these 503 00:23:56,716 --> 00:23:59,476 Speaker 1: cool social science studies, but I didn't think i'd be 504 00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:01,996 Speaker 1: hearing about scientific work that came out of NASA on 505 00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:05,556 Speaker 1: super communication. But it's actually something that folks at NASA 506 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:08,116 Speaker 1: are pretty worried about how to do this emotional connection right, 507 00:24:08,156 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 1: So tell me a little bit about that. 508 00:24:09,596 --> 00:24:12,436 Speaker 2: So it's interesting. So starting in the nineteen eighties, NASA 509 00:24:12,516 --> 00:24:15,156 Speaker 2: realized that they're going to start having these longer space missions, right, 510 00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 2: people going into space for six months to a year. 511 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:20,996 Speaker 2: And it became a real problem because they figured, if 512 00:24:20,996 --> 00:24:23,956 Speaker 2: you're stuck in a tin can, like surrounded by vacuum 513 00:24:23,996 --> 00:24:27,356 Speaker 2: for a year six months with five other people, you 514 00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:30,156 Speaker 2: really have to have good emotional intelligence. You really have 515 00:24:30,196 --> 00:24:32,516 Speaker 2: to be able to connect with other people. The problem 516 00:24:32,636 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 2: was that when they interview astronaut candidates like these men 517 00:24:36,196 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 2: and women, they are at the top of their game. 518 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:41,316 Speaker 2: They know that right answer to every question, They know 519 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:44,676 Speaker 2: how to expose a vulnerability, so it seems admirable they 520 00:24:44,716 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 2: can fake in emotional intelligence better than anyone else, and 521 00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:51,116 Speaker 2: so they couldn't. NASA couldn't figure out who actually has 522 00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:54,356 Speaker 2: emotional intelligence and who who's faking it really well until 523 00:24:54,396 --> 00:24:55,756 Speaker 2: they were up in space, and the ones who were 524 00:24:55,756 --> 00:24:59,396 Speaker 2: faking it ended up being huge problems. So there was 525 00:24:59,436 --> 00:25:02,436 Speaker 2: this one guy who was a psychologist there and this 526 00:25:02,596 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 2: was really bothering him, and so he spent a lot 527 00:25:04,396 --> 00:25:07,036 Speaker 2: of time listening to recordings of old interviews, and he 528 00:25:07,156 --> 00:25:08,876 Speaker 2: noticed the people who went on to be really good 529 00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 2: ass astronauts, really good at emotional intelligence. They laughed differently 530 00:25:13,356 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 2: than everyone else. They would laugh with the same kind 531 00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:21,076 Speaker 2: of energy and at the same intensity as him, regardless 532 00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:23,796 Speaker 2: of what that intensity and energy was. So he changes 533 00:25:23,796 --> 00:25:26,076 Speaker 2: how he says his interviews. He starts coming in and 534 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:28,876 Speaker 2: he's carrying up a stack of papers and he accidentally 535 00:25:29,196 --> 00:25:30,716 Speaker 2: drops them as soon as he walks in, which is 536 00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 2: actually on purpose. And he's wearing this garish yellow tie, 537 00:25:34,276 --> 00:25:36,476 Speaker 2: and he says, my kid made me wear this tie today, 538 00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 2: and now I drop my papers. I look like a 539 00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 2: total clown. And then he would laugh really, really uproariously, 540 00:25:42,716 --> 00:25:44,836 Speaker 2: and then he would pay attention to see if the 541 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:48,796 Speaker 2: astronaut candidate laughed back with the same energy and intensity 542 00:25:49,436 --> 00:25:53,276 Speaker 2: or if they just politely chuckled and it's not just laughter, right. 543 00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:56,956 Speaker 2: These are known as non linguistic expressions. Later in the interview, 544 00:25:56,996 --> 00:25:59,436 Speaker 2: he'd often tell a story about someone who had died 545 00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:02,436 Speaker 2: in his family, and he would pay close attention to 546 00:26:02,476 --> 00:26:06,396 Speaker 2: see did the candidate try and comfort me or did 547 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:08,516 Speaker 2: they kind of just step back and say, I'm going 548 00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:11,116 Speaker 2: to give him his space to have this emotional moment. 549 00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 2: I don't want to get too deeply involved. What they 550 00:26:15,276 --> 00:26:18,356 Speaker 2: were looking for is that people who matched him. Now, 551 00:26:18,476 --> 00:26:21,796 Speaker 2: some people might laugh loudly and they might laugh quietly. 552 00:26:21,796 --> 00:26:23,596 Speaker 2: It didn't matter what kind of laugh they had. It 553 00:26:23,596 --> 00:26:27,156 Speaker 2: didn't matter how they comforted people. What mattered was when 554 00:26:27,316 --> 00:26:31,356 Speaker 2: he displayed an emotion. Did they try and match that emotion, 555 00:26:31,556 --> 00:26:33,996 Speaker 2: show that they were hearing it, engage with it, and 556 00:26:34,076 --> 00:26:37,116 Speaker 2: create space for him to discuss that emotion. When we 557 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:39,556 Speaker 2: try and prove that we are listening, this is what 558 00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:42,836 Speaker 2: supercommunicators do. When we show that we want to connect, 559 00:26:42,876 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 2: which is what laughter is, then we start to actually 560 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:47,876 Speaker 2: connect and it makes all the difference. 561 00:26:48,396 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 1: And the work seemed to show that there were two 562 00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: particular ways that it worked well when emotions were matched, right, 563 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:56,436 Speaker 1: So tell me about those kind of two moments of matching. 564 00:26:56,876 --> 00:26:58,756 Speaker 1: I like this in particular because it seemed like the 565 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:01,996 Speaker 1: mood and the intensity were ones that like telemarketers use too, 566 00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 1: So that's why. 567 00:27:02,796 --> 00:27:05,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the two ways that we need to 568 00:27:05,716 --> 00:27:08,516 Speaker 2: match other people, and the two ways that we oftentimes 569 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:11,476 Speaker 2: pick up on other people's emotional signals are through mood 570 00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:16,716 Speaker 2: and intensity. So if somebody is negative and they're high energy, 571 00:27:17,076 --> 00:27:21,076 Speaker 2: they're probably angry. But if they're negative and low energy, 572 00:27:21,636 --> 00:27:24,756 Speaker 2: then they're probably sad. And the difference between interacting with 573 00:27:24,796 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 2: someone who's angry and someone who's sad is very significant, right, 574 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:30,556 Speaker 2: we want to treat them differently. So our brains have 575 00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:33,596 Speaker 2: become designed to pick up on these two things. On mood, 576 00:27:33,876 --> 00:27:37,996 Speaker 2: either positive or negative, and on energy or intensity, which 577 00:27:38,076 --> 00:27:41,076 Speaker 2: is either low energy or high energy. And so we 578 00:27:41,276 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 2: notice this almost immediately when we see other people. When 579 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 2: you're walking down the street or you walk into a 580 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:49,276 Speaker 2: coffee shop and you see someone who is positive and 581 00:27:49,356 --> 00:27:52,796 Speaker 2: high energy, then there's part of you that says, Okay, 582 00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:55,516 Speaker 2: this person is like really like they're enthusiastic, like it's 583 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 2: all righty, Like I'm gonna go over and i'm gonna 584 00:27:57,036 --> 00:27:58,516 Speaker 2: talk to my friend and we're gonna have a great time. 585 00:27:58,836 --> 00:28:01,556 Speaker 2: If they're positive and low energy, you think Oh, they're 586 00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:04,276 Speaker 2: in sort of a contemplative state of mind. They're calm, 587 00:28:04,316 --> 00:28:07,596 Speaker 2: and they're relaxed. And so when we are trying to 588 00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 2: match with someone, it's key to try and pay attention 589 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:14,636 Speaker 2: to that mood and that energy and sort of align 590 00:28:14,676 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 2: with it. And in fact, the TV show The Big 591 00:28:17,676 --> 00:28:20,996 Speaker 2: Bang Theory, this most popular sitcom in history, was actually 592 00:28:21,036 --> 00:28:23,596 Speaker 2: a big flop until they figured out that if they 593 00:28:23,636 --> 00:28:26,396 Speaker 2: had the actors match each other's mood and match each 594 00:28:26,396 --> 00:28:29,396 Speaker 2: other's energy intensity, then they could show the audience that 595 00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:31,916 Speaker 2: they were connecting with each other. And when you think 596 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:34,876 Speaker 2: about it, take laughter. So we know from studies that 597 00:28:35,156 --> 00:28:38,516 Speaker 2: about seventy percent of the time when we laugh, it 598 00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:42,476 Speaker 2: is not in reaction to anything funny. I laugh because 599 00:28:42,476 --> 00:28:44,956 Speaker 2: I show you I want to connect with you. You laugh 600 00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:46,716 Speaker 2: back to show me you want to connect with me. 601 00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:49,396 Speaker 2: But imagine for a minute that we're talking to each 602 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:55,116 Speaker 2: other and I laugh like that, and you go, h yeah, 603 00:28:55,156 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 2: I know that we're not connecting with each other, right, 604 00:28:57,716 --> 00:29:00,916 Speaker 2: I know because your intensity is very different from mine, 605 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,076 Speaker 2: that we're not actually on the same wave of length. 606 00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:04,556 Speaker 2: That you don't necessarily want to be on the same 607 00:29:04,596 --> 00:29:06,236 Speaker 2: wave of length. And that's really powerful. 608 00:29:06,796 --> 00:29:08,476 Speaker 1: And what's so cool is that so many of these 609 00:29:08,636 --> 00:29:11,316 Speaker 1: kind of munication strategies are really ones that are just 610 00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:13,676 Speaker 1: like built into us as primates. Right in theory, this 611 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 1: is the sort of real basis of how we've been connecting, 612 00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:18,876 Speaker 1: you know, for thousands and thousands of years. But in 613 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:21,956 Speaker 1: the dating world, these days, we're connecting over media that 614 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:25,196 Speaker 1: look really different than the normal in person communication that 615 00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:27,836 Speaker 1: we've used forever. Like, these days in the dating world, 616 00:29:27,876 --> 00:29:32,076 Speaker 1: people are connecting over apps or over a text message thread, 617 00:29:32,276 --> 00:29:34,916 Speaker 1: and so talk about where communication can go awry, how 618 00:29:34,916 --> 00:29:37,396 Speaker 1: we might be able to become super communicators when we're 619 00:29:37,396 --> 00:29:40,356 Speaker 1: first meeting people in these new kind of domains that 620 00:29:40,396 --> 00:29:43,556 Speaker 1: maybe our whole supercommunication system wasn't really built. 621 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:46,396 Speaker 2: For very well, No, you're exactly right. When I met 622 00:29:46,396 --> 00:29:49,156 Speaker 2: my wife, we were in college together, and that seemed 623 00:29:49,156 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 2: like the most natural way to meet your spouse, right, Like, 624 00:29:52,276 --> 00:29:53,996 Speaker 2: you get to spend a lot of time with them, 625 00:29:54,036 --> 00:29:57,556 Speaker 2: you know, people in common. And now if I was 626 00:29:57,556 --> 00:29:59,756 Speaker 2: suddenly single and having to use apps, I would be 627 00:29:59,836 --> 00:30:02,516 Speaker 2: disastrous of this. I would have no idea what I'm doing. 628 00:30:02,676 --> 00:30:04,916 Speaker 2: But what's interesting is I would learn. One of my 629 00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:07,036 Speaker 2: favorite examples of this is that if you go back 630 00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,756 Speaker 2: to when telephones first became popular, there were all these 631 00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:12,156 Speaker 2: articles that came out that said, no one's ever going 632 00:30:12,196 --> 00:30:14,356 Speaker 2: to be able to have a real conversation on the phone, right. 633 00:30:14,516 --> 00:30:16,596 Speaker 2: It's going to be useful for sending over grocery lists 634 00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:19,356 Speaker 2: or stock orders, but if you can't see the person, 635 00:30:19,396 --> 00:30:21,716 Speaker 2: you can't really connect with them. And what's really interesting 636 00:30:21,996 --> 00:30:23,876 Speaker 2: is they were right at first. There were all these 637 00:30:23,876 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 2: studies where they would transcribe phone conversations and they were 638 00:30:27,636 --> 00:30:31,476 Speaker 2: stilted and weird and awkward because people didn't know how 639 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 2: to use that channel of communication. Now, by the time 640 00:30:34,516 --> 00:30:37,196 Speaker 2: you and I were in middle school, of course we 641 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:39,676 Speaker 2: could have conversations for like seven hours a night. They 642 00:30:39,676 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 2: were the best conversations of our life on the telephone. 643 00:30:42,276 --> 00:30:45,236 Speaker 2: And it's because people tend to learn how to use 644 00:30:45,316 --> 00:30:48,796 Speaker 2: different channels, and what they learn is different channels require 645 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:51,956 Speaker 2: different approaches. So you and I can see each other 646 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:54,836 Speaker 2: right now because we're on zoom, But if we turned 647 00:30:54,836 --> 00:30:58,076 Speaker 2: off our cameras odds are, we would both even without 648 00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:01,196 Speaker 2: realizing it, we would both start enunciating our words a 649 00:31:01,236 --> 00:31:03,836 Speaker 2: little bit more. We would start making the emotion in 650 00:31:03,876 --> 00:31:07,116 Speaker 2: our voices a little bit stronger because we know that 651 00:31:07,116 --> 00:31:09,836 Speaker 2: the other person can't see us, so we know that 652 00:31:09,876 --> 00:31:12,516 Speaker 2: we need to do that. Now. The problem is, as 653 00:31:12,556 --> 00:31:15,796 Speaker 2: you pointed out, is we've been online for like twenty 654 00:31:15,876 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 2: twenty five years now, right, Like it's like a millisecond 655 00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:22,156 Speaker 2: elationary time a second. Right, There's no evolution that's happened 656 00:31:22,196 --> 00:31:25,276 Speaker 2: in our brain around digital communication, and so as a result, 657 00:31:25,316 --> 00:31:27,396 Speaker 2: we haven't learned how to use these different channels differently. 658 00:31:27,396 --> 00:31:30,636 Speaker 2: And sometimes because it's so fast and we're not thinking 659 00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:34,116 Speaker 2: hard and we just are busy, we assume that sending 660 00:31:34,196 --> 00:31:36,716 Speaker 2: a text is like sending an email is like making 661 00:31:36,756 --> 00:31:39,596 Speaker 2: a phone call. We don't think about the different rules 662 00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:43,276 Speaker 2: that different forms of communication require, and so as a result, 663 00:31:43,556 --> 00:31:47,756 Speaker 2: I send you a brusque email that you think seems 664 00:31:47,796 --> 00:31:49,716 Speaker 2: really like just a short email that you think is 665 00:31:49,756 --> 00:31:53,076 Speaker 2: brusque because I'm thinking if I told you this in person, 666 00:31:53,156 --> 00:31:55,516 Speaker 2: like you would understand it's not brusque. I'm just busy. 667 00:31:55,956 --> 00:31:57,956 Speaker 2: Or I say something sarcastic because I can hear the 668 00:31:57,996 --> 00:32:00,076 Speaker 2: sarcasm in my own head and you could hear it 669 00:32:00,116 --> 00:32:02,036 Speaker 2: if we were on the phone. But when I type it, 670 00:32:02,356 --> 00:32:04,396 Speaker 2: you don't realize it's sarcastic. You think that I'm being 671 00:32:04,436 --> 00:32:07,476 Speaker 2: a jerk. And so a huge part of digital communication 672 00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:10,196 Speaker 2: is just taking a second and so saying what are 673 00:32:10,196 --> 00:32:14,316 Speaker 2: the different rules for this form of communication? Because texting 674 00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:18,116 Speaker 2: is different from snapchatting is different from emailing. And what 675 00:32:18,236 --> 00:32:19,996 Speaker 2: I noticed I have kids, a twelve year old and 676 00:32:19,996 --> 00:32:22,676 Speaker 2: a fifteen year old. They do this automatically. Now there 677 00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:25,996 Speaker 2: are things that they do on texting that is completely 678 00:32:26,036 --> 00:32:28,356 Speaker 2: different from what they would do on email, which is 679 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:30,196 Speaker 2: completely different from how they talk to each other on 680 00:32:30,236 --> 00:32:32,516 Speaker 2: snap which is completely different from how they talk to 681 00:32:32,556 --> 00:32:35,836 Speaker 2: me at home. They're learning these different channels and the 682 00:32:35,916 --> 00:32:37,356 Speaker 2: rules for these channels, and those of us are a 683 00:32:37,396 --> 00:32:39,516 Speaker 2: little bit older. We sometimes have to remind ourselves. 684 00:32:39,916 --> 00:32:41,556 Speaker 1: So what are some of the specific things we can 685 00:32:41,636 --> 00:32:43,636 Speaker 1: remind ourselves, Because I feel like this comes up all 686 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:46,876 Speaker 1: the time, both in like my marriage and my relationships, 687 00:32:46,876 --> 00:32:49,276 Speaker 1: but also just in friendships and with work colleagues and 688 00:32:49,316 --> 00:32:52,156 Speaker 1: so on, What are some of the really specific strategies 689 00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:52,756 Speaker 1: so we. 690 00:32:52,716 --> 00:32:55,636 Speaker 2: Know that when you go online, basically everything that seems 691 00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:58,516 Speaker 2: polite should be done a lot more. There was a 692 00:32:58,516 --> 00:33:01,476 Speaker 2: really interesting study that looked at on Wikipedia editors who 693 00:33:01,476 --> 00:33:03,476 Speaker 2: would like get in these fights with each other, and 694 00:33:03,516 --> 00:33:06,396 Speaker 2: they found that if just one person started saying please 695 00:33:06,436 --> 00:33:09,756 Speaker 2: and thank you, it lowered the temperature of the conversation 696 00:33:09,836 --> 00:33:12,916 Speaker 2: by like fifty percent. Everyone else would suddenly become more 697 00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:16,236 Speaker 2: polite and more understanding. One first thing is that you're 698 00:33:16,236 --> 00:33:18,876 Speaker 2: more polite, like overemphasize the polite. It's never going to 699 00:33:18,876 --> 00:33:21,636 Speaker 2: come across as obsequious. It's just going to come across 700 00:33:21,676 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 2: as as understanding and comforting. And then the second thing 701 00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:29,476 Speaker 2: you do is read back what you've written, not with 702 00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:32,436 Speaker 2: it the words playing in your head, but actually looking 703 00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:35,836 Speaker 2: at what's been said. So a really important thing that 704 00:33:35,876 --> 00:33:39,076 Speaker 2: happens is I mentioned we tend to rely on vocal 705 00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:42,196 Speaker 2: tone enormously when we're talking to each other. Right, you 706 00:33:42,196 --> 00:33:43,996 Speaker 2: can tell if it's a joke or I'm serious based 707 00:33:43,996 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 2: on the tone of my voice. But we can't do 708 00:33:46,116 --> 00:33:48,836 Speaker 2: that in written text. And so sometimes just taking a 709 00:33:48,876 --> 00:33:52,196 Speaker 2: moment to reread the thing without letting the voice in 710 00:33:52,236 --> 00:33:54,796 Speaker 2: your head read it for you will tell you what 711 00:33:54,836 --> 00:33:56,556 Speaker 2: you're about to send is going to come off sounding 712 00:33:56,636 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 2: so different from what you intend. Really, the tips are 713 00:34:00,876 --> 00:34:04,276 Speaker 2: basically just to kind of overdo it a little bit, 714 00:34:04,916 --> 00:34:07,636 Speaker 2: and that's especially true for online dating. 715 00:34:09,676 --> 00:34:12,156 Speaker 1: It's certainly not bad dating advice to make a point 716 00:34:12,156 --> 00:34:16,356 Speaker 1: of being considerate and kind. But after the honeymoon is over, 717 00:34:16,556 --> 00:34:19,116 Speaker 1: a lot of us stop being so careful around our partners. 718 00:34:19,716 --> 00:34:21,836 Speaker 1: Charles says, that's not what we should do if we 719 00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:25,276 Speaker 1: want to act more like a super communicator. More on 720 00:34:25,316 --> 00:34:27,716 Speaker 1: that when the Happiness Lab gets back from the break. 721 00:34:34,156 --> 00:34:36,076 Speaker 1: We often talked to dozens of people in the course 722 00:34:36,116 --> 00:34:38,916 Speaker 1: of an ordinary day. We might order coffee, or buy 723 00:34:38,916 --> 00:34:41,396 Speaker 1: a train ticket, or ask our neighbor to trim back 724 00:34:41,396 --> 00:34:45,076 Speaker 1: their hedge. We have simple interactions and trickier ones. But 725 00:34:45,156 --> 00:34:47,276 Speaker 1: if you think of a time when your own communication 726 00:34:47,356 --> 00:34:50,076 Speaker 1: went awry, my guess is that it probably happened not 727 00:34:50,116 --> 00:34:52,676 Speaker 1: with some stranger, but with someone who is near and 728 00:34:52,756 --> 00:34:55,716 Speaker 1: dear to you. It was this realization that pushed author 729 00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:59,676 Speaker 1: Charles Douhig to investigate the habits of so called supercommunicators. 730 00:34:59,836 --> 00:35:02,076 Speaker 1: He hoped that he, too, could learn to interact better 731 00:35:02,156 --> 00:35:04,516 Speaker 1: with the people whose feelings mattered to him the most. 732 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 2: I was working the New York Times and they made 733 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:10,396 Speaker 2: me a manager. And when they made me a manager, 734 00:35:10,436 --> 00:35:11,716 Speaker 2: I was like, oh man, I'm going to kill this. 735 00:35:11,956 --> 00:35:13,276 Speaker 2: I'm going to be so good at this, Like I've 736 00:35:13,316 --> 00:35:16,996 Speaker 2: had lots of managers, and I got an MBA from Harvard, 737 00:35:17,316 --> 00:35:19,516 Speaker 2: and I was okay at the like the logistics in 738 00:35:19,556 --> 00:35:23,756 Speaker 2: the strategy part, and it was terrible at communicating, Like 739 00:35:24,476 --> 00:35:26,396 Speaker 2: people would come to me with problems and I'd try 740 00:35:26,436 --> 00:35:29,316 Speaker 2: and solve their problems rather than listen. They would come 741 00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:31,116 Speaker 2: to me and say this is really important to me, 742 00:35:31,156 --> 00:35:33,876 Speaker 2: and I would downplay it and try and help them 743 00:35:33,916 --> 00:35:35,916 Speaker 2: by showing them that it's not that important instead of 744 00:35:35,956 --> 00:35:39,236 Speaker 2: actually listening to them saying it's important. And so one 745 00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:40,996 Speaker 2: night I went home and I sat down and I 746 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:43,076 Speaker 2: wrote a list of all the times in the last 747 00:35:43,236 --> 00:35:46,916 Speaker 2: year that I could remember being bad at communicating, like miscommunicating. 748 00:35:47,356 --> 00:35:50,156 Speaker 2: It was shockingly long, particularly for someone who's a journalist 749 00:35:50,156 --> 00:35:53,236 Speaker 2: whos supposed to be a professional communicator. And a lot 750 00:35:53,276 --> 00:35:57,316 Speaker 2: of them were with my wife and my kids. And 751 00:35:57,356 --> 00:36:00,236 Speaker 2: this happens again and again and again, where the people 752 00:36:00,276 --> 00:36:03,196 Speaker 2: that we love the most are often the ones we 753 00:36:03,276 --> 00:36:06,516 Speaker 2: communicate with the least and the worst because they're around 754 00:36:06,556 --> 00:36:09,156 Speaker 2: all the time. Right, Because there's so many opportunities, I 755 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:11,596 Speaker 2: feel like we have to seize them. And so that's 756 00:36:11,596 --> 00:36:14,036 Speaker 2: why I started writing supercommunicators, is I really wanted to 757 00:36:14,116 --> 00:36:16,596 Speaker 2: learn how to get better at this myself. And it 758 00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:19,836 Speaker 2: turns out that oftentimes that people we have conflict within 759 00:36:19,916 --> 00:36:22,036 Speaker 2: our life are the people who are most important to us. 760 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:25,356 Speaker 2: We fight with our partners, and learning how to navigate 761 00:36:25,396 --> 00:36:29,476 Speaker 2: through those is really really important because that's what makes 762 00:36:29,556 --> 00:36:31,836 Speaker 2: a relationship long term successful. 763 00:36:32,316 --> 00:36:33,716 Speaker 1: So one of the things you talk about in the 764 00:36:33,716 --> 00:36:35,796 Speaker 1: book is that the first step to kind of doing 765 00:36:35,876 --> 00:36:39,076 Speaker 1: conflict better is to recognize what the real goal is 766 00:36:39,116 --> 00:36:41,796 Speaker 1: of conflict. And it's often not what we think, which 767 00:36:41,836 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: is like I want to win, you know, I want 768 00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:44,996 Speaker 1: to show my husband that he was wrong about the 769 00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:48,156 Speaker 1: dishwasher or something like that. What's the real goal of 770 00:36:48,196 --> 00:36:50,316 Speaker 1: conflict If we're trying to kind of act more like 771 00:36:50,316 --> 00:36:52,156 Speaker 1: a super communicator, the real. 772 00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:55,276 Speaker 2: Goal of conflict is to understand what the other person 773 00:36:55,476 --> 00:36:59,236 Speaker 2: is telling you and to help them understand you. Right. 774 00:36:59,556 --> 00:37:01,996 Speaker 2: There's oftentimes this thing that's owned as the quiet negotiation 775 00:37:02,156 --> 00:37:04,236 Speaker 2: that at the start of a conversation, and the quiet 776 00:37:04,276 --> 00:37:06,516 Speaker 2: negotiation sort of has two goals. The first is to 777 00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:08,916 Speaker 2: figure out what we're going to be talking about, and 778 00:37:09,236 --> 00:37:11,836 Speaker 2: the second is to figure out the rules for talking 779 00:37:11,836 --> 00:37:14,076 Speaker 2: to each other. Right. Is this a formal conversation or 780 00:37:14,116 --> 00:37:16,556 Speaker 2: a casual one? Can we interrupt each other or do 781 00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:19,436 Speaker 2: we need to wait our turn? There are no right rules, 782 00:37:19,436 --> 00:37:21,676 Speaker 2: but what's important is that we're on the same page 783 00:37:21,716 --> 00:37:24,516 Speaker 2: about what the rules are. And the way to do 784 00:37:24,556 --> 00:37:28,436 Speaker 2: this honestly, particularly when we're in conflict with someone, is 785 00:37:28,476 --> 00:37:32,196 Speaker 2: most frequently simply to ask them. So when I come 786 00:37:32,236 --> 00:37:34,276 Speaker 2: home now and I'm upset, my wife will often say 787 00:37:34,316 --> 00:37:36,716 Speaker 2: to me, look, do you want me to help you 788 00:37:36,756 --> 00:37:38,356 Speaker 2: solve this problem? Or do you want me just to 789 00:37:38,396 --> 00:37:40,396 Speaker 2: listen to you? Because you need to get this off 790 00:37:40,436 --> 00:37:44,476 Speaker 2: your chest. In schools, they often teach teachers when a 791 00:37:44,516 --> 00:37:47,276 Speaker 2: student comes up with something that's really bothering them or 792 00:37:47,316 --> 00:37:51,276 Speaker 2: something meaningful, to ask do you want me to hear you, 793 00:37:52,116 --> 00:37:54,156 Speaker 2: do you want me to help you, or do you 794 00:37:54,196 --> 00:37:56,596 Speaker 2: want me to hug you? Which, of course are the 795 00:37:56,636 --> 00:38:00,156 Speaker 2: three kinds of conversations, right, the practical, the social, and 796 00:38:00,196 --> 00:38:00,916 Speaker 2: the emotional. 797 00:38:01,156 --> 00:38:04,316 Speaker 1: It also means that when we go to a conflict conversation, 798 00:38:04,596 --> 00:38:07,716 Speaker 1: we ourselves probably need to know what our goal is. 799 00:38:08,436 --> 00:38:10,156 Speaker 1: And this is something you saw in your research that 800 00:38:10,236 --> 00:38:12,436 Speaker 1: like figuring that out ahead of time seems to actually 801 00:38:12,436 --> 00:38:13,116 Speaker 1: be really helpful. 802 00:38:13,156 --> 00:38:16,316 Speaker 2: Too oh enormously helpful. There's work done by a woman 803 00:38:16,396 --> 00:38:19,436 Speaker 2: named Alison wood Brooks at Harvard Business School where they 804 00:38:19,556 --> 00:38:23,676 Speaker 2: asked students, before having a conversation with a stranger simply 805 00:38:23,716 --> 00:38:26,636 Speaker 2: to write down three topics that they might discuss in 806 00:38:26,716 --> 00:38:29,036 Speaker 2: simple stuff. It took ten seconds, like the movie we 807 00:38:29,036 --> 00:38:31,396 Speaker 2: saw last night and you know the game this weekend. 808 00:38:31,996 --> 00:38:35,476 Speaker 2: And they found that doing that, people would write it 809 00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:37,796 Speaker 2: down that stick it in their pocket. Those topics almost 810 00:38:37,836 --> 00:38:40,316 Speaker 2: never came up during the conversation, but people felt so 811 00:38:40,396 --> 00:38:44,116 Speaker 2: much less anxious because they knew what they could talk about, 812 00:38:44,156 --> 00:38:45,996 Speaker 2: and doing that had forced them to think about what 813 00:38:46,036 --> 00:38:48,476 Speaker 2: they wanted to talk about. This is, I think kind 814 00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:51,196 Speaker 2: of the goal is that, again, this doesn't take much time. 815 00:38:51,276 --> 00:38:53,716 Speaker 2: It takes like ten seconds. If we know what we 816 00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:55,996 Speaker 2: want out of a conversation before we open our mouth, 817 00:38:56,676 --> 00:38:59,076 Speaker 2: then we're in a position where we can communicate that 818 00:38:59,156 --> 00:39:01,836 Speaker 2: to the other people, and when we do, it invites 819 00:39:01,876 --> 00:39:05,356 Speaker 2: them to communicate with us what they want. Another study 820 00:39:05,356 --> 00:39:07,516 Speaker 2: that I love was done at this investment bank. This 821 00:39:07,676 --> 00:39:09,516 Speaker 2: was like a place where people like screen at each 822 00:39:09,516 --> 00:39:13,596 Speaker 2: other all day long, and they told everyone before each 823 00:39:13,636 --> 00:39:19,316 Speaker 2: meeting for a week, write down one sentence about what 824 00:39:19,436 --> 00:39:22,156 Speaker 2: you want to accomplish in this meeting and the mood 825 00:39:22,236 --> 00:39:24,916 Speaker 2: you hope to establish. So people would write down like, 826 00:39:25,156 --> 00:39:27,236 Speaker 2: you know, I want to choose a budget together, but 827 00:39:27,236 --> 00:39:28,956 Speaker 2: I want everyone to be on board and be happy 828 00:39:28,956 --> 00:39:32,116 Speaker 2: with the result. And then people would like again, stick 829 00:39:32,156 --> 00:39:34,116 Speaker 2: the cards with the sentence on it into their pocket. 830 00:39:34,596 --> 00:39:38,116 Speaker 2: They would walk into to the meeting. Most people wouldn't 831 00:39:38,316 --> 00:39:41,316 Speaker 2: say what was on their card, but because they knew, 832 00:39:42,036 --> 00:39:43,876 Speaker 2: and they knew that everyone else in that room also 833 00:39:43,956 --> 00:39:46,316 Speaker 2: knew what they wanted, they would just tell each other 834 00:39:47,076 --> 00:39:50,476 Speaker 2: and the incidents of conflict went down eighty percent during 835 00:39:50,516 --> 00:39:50,996 Speaker 2: that week. 836 00:39:51,356 --> 00:39:53,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, So this act of just like knowing what you 837 00:39:54,036 --> 00:39:56,116 Speaker 1: want ahead of time, even if it doesn't come to 838 00:39:56,156 --> 00:39:58,636 Speaker 1: that is really powerful. Another suggesting you had in your 839 00:39:58,676 --> 00:40:01,516 Speaker 1: book which I loved, which is to like acknowledge that, 840 00:40:01,636 --> 00:40:04,596 Speaker 1: like the discussion might be awkward, like that there's conflict 841 00:40:04,596 --> 00:40:06,596 Speaker 1: and obstacles might come up. You know, talk about why 842 00:40:06,636 --> 00:40:07,756 Speaker 1: that can be so helpful. 843 00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:10,876 Speaker 2: And this is particularly true conversations that, for instance, have 844 00:40:10,956 --> 00:40:13,516 Speaker 2: to do with identity, like if we're talking about race 845 00:40:13,636 --> 00:40:16,516 Speaker 2: or we're talking about gender, is something that we're scared 846 00:40:16,516 --> 00:40:18,476 Speaker 2: about talking about, but it can also just be true 847 00:40:18,596 --> 00:40:21,716 Speaker 2: for any tough conversation we're going to have, like in relationships, 848 00:40:21,756 --> 00:40:24,516 Speaker 2: you know, in relationships, exactly, if I need to bring 849 00:40:24,556 --> 00:40:27,516 Speaker 2: something up, like about the dishes, and I know that, like, 850 00:40:27,596 --> 00:40:31,276 Speaker 2: you're probably going to not like hearing this. Oftentimes, one 851 00:40:31,316 --> 00:40:33,356 Speaker 2: of the things that stops us from having that conversation 852 00:40:33,636 --> 00:40:36,276 Speaker 2: is that we're worried about how awkward it's going to be. 853 00:40:36,996 --> 00:40:38,396 Speaker 2: But of course the true of the matter is it's 854 00:40:38,396 --> 00:40:41,036 Speaker 2: going to be awkward. So if we start the dialogue 855 00:40:41,036 --> 00:40:44,836 Speaker 2: by acknowledging, look, this is going to be an awkward conversation. 856 00:40:44,996 --> 00:40:47,476 Speaker 2: I'm going to say some of the wrong things. Also, 857 00:40:47,676 --> 00:40:49,316 Speaker 2: I'm going to make some mistakes, Like I'm going to 858 00:40:49,356 --> 00:40:51,516 Speaker 2: say some things in ways that I don't mean to 859 00:40:51,556 --> 00:40:53,836 Speaker 2: say them. So I'm going to ask for your apology 860 00:40:53,836 --> 00:40:55,436 Speaker 2: in advance, because I'm going to screw this up. And 861 00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:57,356 Speaker 2: it's okay if you screw it up, it's okay if 862 00:40:57,796 --> 00:41:02,236 Speaker 2: you have a tough time. Simply acknowledging that awkwardness is 863 00:41:02,396 --> 00:41:07,116 Speaker 2: enormously powerful in helping us move beyond it, or recognizing 864 00:41:07,156 --> 00:41:09,716 Speaker 2: that the awkwardness is actually part of the conversation. It's 865 00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:11,916 Speaker 2: one of the reasons we're having it. Then you also 866 00:41:11,956 --> 00:41:15,556 Speaker 2: mentioned that these obstacles right, that oftentimes in a conversation, 867 00:41:15,996 --> 00:41:20,356 Speaker 2: these obstacles pop up and they create anxiety themselves because 868 00:41:21,156 --> 00:41:22,996 Speaker 2: I said the wrong thing, or it's clear that I 869 00:41:23,076 --> 00:41:25,396 Speaker 2: just said something that offended you, or you're getting defensive, 870 00:41:25,476 --> 00:41:29,396 Speaker 2: or I'm getting defensive. These obstacles are oftentimes easy to 871 00:41:29,476 --> 00:41:33,796 Speaker 2: anticipate if we think about them, but we usually don't, right, 872 00:41:34,116 --> 00:41:36,356 Speaker 2: We just sort of jump into a conversation I've got 873 00:41:36,356 --> 00:41:39,956 Speaker 2: something to tell you about the dishes, rather than sitting 874 00:41:39,996 --> 00:41:42,396 Speaker 2: down and just thinking for ten seconds, like when I 875 00:41:42,436 --> 00:41:45,396 Speaker 2: bring this up, is he going to get defensive? When 876 00:41:45,436 --> 00:41:48,756 Speaker 2: he gets defensive, what am I going to do? So 877 00:41:49,156 --> 00:41:52,076 Speaker 2: anticipating the obstacle and coming up with a plan for 878 00:41:52,156 --> 00:41:55,356 Speaker 2: what to do when you encounter it is enormously powerful. 879 00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:58,156 Speaker 2: The plan is usually obvious, you know exactly what to do, 880 00:41:58,196 --> 00:42:00,276 Speaker 2: but in the moment of panic, when you hit that 881 00:42:00,316 --> 00:42:03,076 Speaker 2: obstacle without having thought about it at all, you overreact. 882 00:42:03,676 --> 00:42:05,556 Speaker 2: But if you just take ten seconds and say, and 883 00:42:05,596 --> 00:42:07,756 Speaker 2: you can actually announce the obstacles, you can say, look, 884 00:42:08,116 --> 00:42:10,316 Speaker 2: I'm going to bring this thing up, and in addition 885 00:42:10,316 --> 00:42:12,876 Speaker 2: to it being awkward, I'm going to work really hard 886 00:42:12,996 --> 00:42:16,316 Speaker 2: not to be defensive myself. If I'm getting defensive, please 887 00:42:16,396 --> 00:42:21,036 Speaker 2: let me know. The thing about tough conversations and conversations 888 00:42:21,036 --> 00:42:24,156 Speaker 2: and conflict is there is no magic bullet to make 889 00:42:24,196 --> 00:42:27,796 Speaker 2: them easy. So just embrace that they're going to be challenging, 890 00:42:28,676 --> 00:42:32,196 Speaker 2: and once you acknowledge those challenges, oftentimes the challenges become 891 00:42:32,276 --> 00:42:34,956 Speaker 2: less scary and they actually become opportunities for us to 892 00:42:34,956 --> 00:42:37,876 Speaker 2: connect and understand each other. So me and my wife, 893 00:42:38,196 --> 00:42:40,796 Speaker 2: this happened like ten years ago. We went on this 894 00:42:40,916 --> 00:42:44,196 Speaker 2: vacation without our kids to Florida, and we were staying 895 00:42:44,196 --> 00:42:48,036 Speaker 2: at this spa, and like, this is supposed to be relaxing, right, 896 00:42:48,316 --> 00:42:51,516 Speaker 2: I managed to screw it up completely by bringing up 897 00:42:51,636 --> 00:42:54,956 Speaker 2: money and whether we're spending too much money or whether 898 00:42:54,996 --> 00:42:58,436 Speaker 2: it's not going well, and like she got really like upset, 899 00:42:58,516 --> 00:43:00,396 Speaker 2: and then I got super upset, and we were like 900 00:43:00,476 --> 00:43:03,356 Speaker 2: screaming at each other in the hallway of the spa, 901 00:43:03,436 --> 00:43:06,676 Speaker 2: like this is like the worst possible way to spend 902 00:43:06,676 --> 00:43:09,076 Speaker 2: a relaxing vacation. And so when I look back on that, 903 00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:12,156 Speaker 2: I think to myself, like, how different would it have 904 00:43:12,236 --> 00:43:14,876 Speaker 2: been if I had said to Liz, like, you know 905 00:43:14,916 --> 00:43:16,476 Speaker 2: what I think we're spending too much money. We need 906 00:43:16,516 --> 00:43:22,156 Speaker 2: to talk about that. And she said, Okay, here's the 907 00:43:22,196 --> 00:43:23,876 Speaker 2: things that I need to spend on, and I think 908 00:43:23,916 --> 00:43:25,276 Speaker 2: we need to spend this much on food, and we 909 00:43:25,276 --> 00:43:27,916 Speaker 2: need to spend this much on school. If instead of 910 00:43:27,956 --> 00:43:30,396 Speaker 2: just responding and being like no, no, no, no, you're wrong, which 911 00:43:30,396 --> 00:43:32,916 Speaker 2: is what I did, if I had said, Okay, what 912 00:43:32,996 --> 00:43:35,676 Speaker 2: I hear you saying is there are some things that 913 00:43:35,716 --> 00:43:38,076 Speaker 2: are priorities for you that might not be priorities for me, 914 00:43:38,796 --> 00:43:40,836 Speaker 2: but that we have to listen to each other's priorities. 915 00:43:40,836 --> 00:43:43,276 Speaker 2: And for you, being able to buy organic food is 916 00:43:43,276 --> 00:43:45,636 Speaker 2: a real priority, even if it isn't for me. Am 917 00:43:45,676 --> 00:43:48,876 Speaker 2: I getting that right? Then what she probably would have 918 00:43:48,876 --> 00:43:50,716 Speaker 2: said is either yeah, yeah, I think you're hearing me, 919 00:43:50,876 --> 00:43:52,916 Speaker 2: or she would have said, no, it's not actually the 920 00:43:52,996 --> 00:43:55,556 Speaker 2: organic food. It's that I feel like you're trying to 921 00:43:55,596 --> 00:43:58,636 Speaker 2: control how I spend You're trying to control the money. 922 00:43:59,076 --> 00:44:01,676 Speaker 1: And that's the beauty of why this is looping. For understanding, 923 00:44:01,756 --> 00:44:03,276 Speaker 1: you need the loop to come back to. 924 00:44:03,436 --> 00:44:06,236 Speaker 2: You need the loop. So when she says no, no, no, 925 00:44:06,356 --> 00:44:08,516 Speaker 2: you're got you got it a little bit. But let 926 00:44:08,516 --> 00:44:10,956 Speaker 2: me tell you they're part of this. Then I just 927 00:44:10,996 --> 00:44:12,996 Speaker 2: loop again and I say, Okay, what I hear you 928 00:44:13,116 --> 00:44:15,716 Speaker 2: saying is and we do this again and again and 929 00:44:15,756 --> 00:44:19,756 Speaker 2: again until we all agree that we understand each other. 930 00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:22,356 Speaker 2: And the reason why this is so powerful is in 931 00:44:22,476 --> 00:44:24,076 Speaker 2: a lot of this draws on the work of Sheila 932 00:44:24,156 --> 00:44:28,596 Speaker 2: Heen and her colleagues at the Harvard Negotiation Project. Whenever 933 00:44:28,636 --> 00:44:30,876 Speaker 2: we go into a tough conversation, whenever we go into 934 00:44:30,876 --> 00:44:34,556 Speaker 2: a conflict, everyone involved has a story inside their head 935 00:44:34,716 --> 00:44:38,116 Speaker 2: about why we're here. And the only thing that's certain 936 00:44:38,796 --> 00:44:42,716 Speaker 2: is our stories are different. Right, They might be similar, 937 00:44:43,476 --> 00:44:46,796 Speaker 2: but they're not the same. And I'm operating from my story. 938 00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:48,956 Speaker 2: I'm saying, like, the reason we're talking about this is 939 00:44:48,956 --> 00:44:51,916 Speaker 2: that you're spending too much money and you don't appreciate 940 00:44:51,996 --> 00:44:53,876 Speaker 2: how hard it is for me to go earn that money. 941 00:44:54,076 --> 00:44:56,956 Speaker 2: And from Lizz's perspective, it's I'm taking care of the 942 00:44:57,036 --> 00:44:59,356 Speaker 2: kids and also I earn my own money, and I 943 00:44:59,356 --> 00:45:01,836 Speaker 2: don't understand why you keep insisting that like you should 944 00:45:01,876 --> 00:45:04,036 Speaker 2: have any say and how I spend when I'm not 945 00:45:04,076 --> 00:45:06,676 Speaker 2: trying to control how you spend. We both have a 946 00:45:06,716 --> 00:45:09,636 Speaker 2: story inside our head, and as long as we're operating 947 00:45:09,676 --> 00:45:11,956 Speaker 2: from that story, it's really hard for us to hear 948 00:45:11,956 --> 00:45:14,836 Speaker 2: each other. But when we start looping for understanding, what 949 00:45:14,876 --> 00:45:18,476 Speaker 2: we're doing is really saying, here's the story that I 950 00:45:18,556 --> 00:45:21,916 Speaker 2: hear you telling me, am, I getting that story right, 951 00:45:22,716 --> 00:45:25,636 Speaker 2: And oftentimes it is a looping. Oftentimes they have to say, no, 952 00:45:25,676 --> 00:45:27,636 Speaker 2: you didn't get it exactly right. Let me help you 953 00:45:27,756 --> 00:45:31,996 Speaker 2: out understand. And once we understand the other person's story, 954 00:45:32,516 --> 00:45:35,156 Speaker 2: that's when we can really hear what they want to say, 955 00:45:35,596 --> 00:45:37,596 Speaker 2: and we know how to say our own piece so 956 00:45:37,636 --> 00:45:38,556 Speaker 2: that they can hear it. 957 00:45:39,196 --> 00:45:41,756 Speaker 1: So I'm guessing that knowing how to do this well 958 00:45:41,956 --> 00:45:45,396 Speaker 1: has meant that there's like not more like SPA blow 959 00:45:45,476 --> 00:45:48,756 Speaker 1: ups and tries, you know, but it does this really 960 00:45:48,836 --> 00:45:49,396 Speaker 1: change your life? 961 00:45:49,476 --> 00:45:51,676 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it is. It is like magic. It 962 00:45:51,716 --> 00:45:55,036 Speaker 2: has transformed not just with Liz and not just with 963 00:45:55,036 --> 00:45:57,836 Speaker 2: my kids, but like with everyone. Because the thing is 964 00:45:58,196 --> 00:46:01,476 Speaker 2: all of these skills, looping for understanding, asking deep questions, 965 00:46:02,036 --> 00:46:04,316 Speaker 2: all of those are things that become instinctual once you 966 00:46:04,316 --> 00:46:07,156 Speaker 2: start thinking about them. They become habits. And what you 967 00:46:07,236 --> 00:46:10,116 Speaker 2: discover is that like all these problems that I used 968 00:46:10,116 --> 00:46:14,356 Speaker 2: to create for myself have just disappeared. It's not like 969 00:46:14,516 --> 00:46:16,396 Speaker 2: Liz and I agree with each other more. It's not 970 00:46:16,436 --> 00:46:19,596 Speaker 2: like we're like suddenly on the same page about everything. 971 00:46:20,036 --> 00:46:22,676 Speaker 2: But as long as we're like actually communicating about it 972 00:46:22,676 --> 00:46:24,716 Speaker 2: and we understand our goal is to understand each other, 973 00:46:24,836 --> 00:46:28,036 Speaker 2: not to win, then we end up feeling like we're 974 00:46:28,036 --> 00:46:31,796 Speaker 2: both in control. And this control is really important because 975 00:46:32,476 --> 00:46:35,436 Speaker 2: when we are in conflict with someone, when we're fighting 976 00:46:35,516 --> 00:46:38,876 Speaker 2: with our partner, when we're having a tough time, when 977 00:46:38,876 --> 00:46:43,196 Speaker 2: we're negotiating the start of a relationship, we have this 978 00:46:43,356 --> 00:46:46,716 Speaker 2: instinct for control. It's very human, and so it's very 979 00:46:46,796 --> 00:46:48,396 Speaker 2: natural to try and control the thing that's right in 980 00:46:48,436 --> 00:46:50,796 Speaker 2: front of you, the other person. Right, if I can 981 00:46:50,996 --> 00:46:53,636 Speaker 2: just get you to listen to me, you'll agree with me. 982 00:46:53,756 --> 00:46:55,436 Speaker 2: If I can just get you to see things from 983 00:46:55,436 --> 00:46:59,196 Speaker 2: my perspective, or when you say I'm really upset about X, 984 00:47:00,116 --> 00:47:02,356 Speaker 2: if I can just convince you like you shouldn't be upset, 985 00:47:02,396 --> 00:47:04,596 Speaker 2: that's not a big deal, Like you're making too much 986 00:47:04,596 --> 00:47:07,956 Speaker 2: of it. Right, If I can control the importance you 987 00:47:08,036 --> 00:47:10,876 Speaker 2: place on things, it feels like that will work, But 988 00:47:10,916 --> 00:47:12,836 Speaker 2: of course it never does. All it does is create 989 00:47:12,876 --> 00:47:15,636 Speaker 2: more conflict. So instead, if we can find things to 990 00:47:15,636 --> 00:47:19,476 Speaker 2: control together, control the environment, for instance, like if we're 991 00:47:19,556 --> 00:47:21,996 Speaker 2: having a fight at two am, to decide we're going 992 00:47:22,036 --> 00:47:24,436 Speaker 2: to wait until we're both well rested in the morning 993 00:47:24,436 --> 00:47:27,956 Speaker 2: to talk about this. If we can control ourselves by saying, look, 994 00:47:27,956 --> 00:47:29,276 Speaker 2: I'm going to take a couple of minutes just to 995 00:47:29,276 --> 00:47:31,996 Speaker 2: calm down before I answer, if we can control the 996 00:47:32,356 --> 00:47:35,756 Speaker 2: fight itself and say, you know, instead of like arguing 997 00:47:35,836 --> 00:47:39,076 Speaker 2: about where we spend Thanksgiving and it becomes a conversation 998 00:47:39,116 --> 00:47:41,316 Speaker 2: about your mother and how she hates me, and we 999 00:47:41,596 --> 00:47:44,356 Speaker 2: spend too much money you don't earn enough. If we 1000 00:47:44,436 --> 00:47:46,836 Speaker 2: just say, look, we're just talking about Thanksgiving, we're going 1001 00:47:46,916 --> 00:47:49,636 Speaker 2: to keep it to Thanksgiving, then we're controlling things together. 1002 00:47:50,396 --> 00:47:53,316 Speaker 2: In marriages, I know that you had talk to the Gotmans. 1003 00:47:53,716 --> 00:47:55,476 Speaker 2: There's this line that I love from one of John 1004 00:47:55,476 --> 00:47:58,516 Speaker 2: Gotman's studies, which is the key to success in a 1005 00:47:58,556 --> 00:48:02,476 Speaker 2: marriage is symmetry. And what he means is not necessarily 1006 00:48:02,516 --> 00:48:06,196 Speaker 2: we agree with each other. It's that we match each other. 1007 00:48:06,796 --> 00:48:08,636 Speaker 2: That when you get serious, I get serious, when you 1008 00:48:08,676 --> 00:48:11,476 Speaker 2: go light, go light. And part of that is saying 1009 00:48:11,556 --> 00:48:13,276 Speaker 2: I'm going to share control with you. We're going to 1010 00:48:13,316 --> 00:48:14,156 Speaker 2: control this together. 1011 00:48:14,716 --> 00:48:17,476 Speaker 1: So we've covered tons of ground in this conversation so far, 1012 00:48:17,716 --> 00:48:20,516 Speaker 1: but just as a final thought, like, why should we 1013 00:48:20,556 --> 00:48:23,156 Speaker 1: really copy what super communicators are doing when it comes 1014 00:48:23,196 --> 00:48:25,716 Speaker 1: to relationships, and just kind of generally so I. 1015 00:48:25,676 --> 00:48:28,596 Speaker 2: Mentioned before this Harvard study, this Harvard Sudy of Adult Happiness, 1016 00:48:28,836 --> 00:48:31,916 Speaker 2: and it's the largest and longest latitudinal study that we have. 1017 00:48:32,036 --> 00:48:35,596 Speaker 2: They've followed around thousands of people trying to figure out 1018 00:48:35,716 --> 00:48:40,236 Speaker 2: what determines future longevity and health and happiness. And the 1019 00:48:40,276 --> 00:48:42,276 Speaker 2: only real thing that they found that seems to be 1020 00:48:42,316 --> 00:48:46,876 Speaker 2: predictive is people who have deep and meaningful relationships when 1021 00:48:46,876 --> 00:48:50,836 Speaker 2: they are forty five will be healthier and happier and 1022 00:48:50,916 --> 00:48:53,836 Speaker 2: more successful when they're sixty five. And of course there's 1023 00:48:53,836 --> 00:48:55,596 Speaker 2: nothing special about forty five, right. If you can make 1024 00:48:55,596 --> 00:48:57,356 Speaker 2: it to forty five and you have some deep relationships, 1025 00:48:57,396 --> 00:48:59,116 Speaker 2: it means you've been building them for a while. You 1026 00:48:59,196 --> 00:49:00,996 Speaker 2: probably also had them when you were twenty five or 1027 00:49:00,996 --> 00:49:04,196 Speaker 2: thirty five. And so the lesson to take from that 1028 00:49:04,476 --> 00:49:07,076 Speaker 2: is it doesn't matter how many relationships you have, it 1029 00:49:07,076 --> 00:49:10,636 Speaker 2: matters how deep and important they are. And a huge 1030 00:49:10,676 --> 00:49:13,196 Speaker 2: part of that is just having conversations with them. Right. 1031 00:49:13,236 --> 00:49:15,356 Speaker 2: But when it comes to romantic relationships, I think the 1032 00:49:15,436 --> 00:49:19,276 Speaker 2: lesson here is it can get really discouraging, right, Like 1033 00:49:19,316 --> 00:49:21,156 Speaker 2: I have lots of friends who are on the apps 1034 00:49:21,236 --> 00:49:24,316 Speaker 2: and they go on date after date after date. Half 1035 00:49:24,356 --> 00:49:27,276 Speaker 2: the dates are terrible and then the other half they 1036 00:49:27,436 --> 00:49:29,716 Speaker 2: like them, but then they ghost each other. And like, 1037 00:49:30,356 --> 00:49:33,316 Speaker 2: it can be brutal out there. But the thing is 1038 00:49:33,356 --> 00:49:37,916 Speaker 2: that it's it's worth persisting in. It's worth spending that 1039 00:49:38,156 --> 00:49:42,596 Speaker 2: energy to find the right person because when we connect 1040 00:49:42,636 --> 00:49:44,676 Speaker 2: with someone, when we find someone that we can have 1041 00:49:44,716 --> 00:49:48,876 Speaker 2: conversations with, even if we don't end up mirroring them, 1042 00:49:49,156 --> 00:49:52,636 Speaker 2: if they just become a friend, that is the thing 1043 00:49:52,996 --> 00:49:56,636 Speaker 2: that gives our life meaning year by year by year. 1044 00:49:57,316 --> 00:49:59,916 Speaker 2: And the people who at forty five have deep, meaningful 1045 00:49:59,996 --> 00:50:03,156 Speaker 2: relationships and therefore it's sixty five, are happier and healthier. 1046 00:50:03,476 --> 00:50:06,876 Speaker 2: They are the people who spend time and energy and 1047 00:50:07,196 --> 00:50:10,276 Speaker 2: put up with the disappointment trying to find someone when 1048 00:50:10,276 --> 00:50:15,156 Speaker 2: they were younger. It's worth investing in. It's hard, but 1049 00:50:15,396 --> 00:50:17,396 Speaker 2: it works out in the end and it pays off. 1050 00:50:18,316 --> 00:50:20,196 Speaker 1: If Charles has helped to convince you that you need 1051 00:50:20,236 --> 00:50:23,036 Speaker 1: to invest more in your intimate relationships, then be sure 1052 00:50:23,036 --> 00:50:26,076 Speaker 1: to check out his book Super Communicators. How to unlock 1053 00:50:26,116 --> 00:50:29,596 Speaker 1: the secret language of connection. But we haven't finished with 1054 00:50:29,636 --> 00:50:32,276 Speaker 1: the topic of love and happiness just yet. In our 1055 00:50:32,316 --> 00:50:35,476 Speaker 1: next and final episode of this special season, we'll challenge 1056 00:50:35,476 --> 00:50:38,196 Speaker 1: some of the love rules we get from fairy tale romances, 1057 00:50:38,356 --> 00:50:41,916 Speaker 1: movie rom comms, and Instagram influencers. We'll even ask if 1058 00:50:41,956 --> 00:50:44,516 Speaker 1: it's about time that we settled for a good enough lover. 1059 00:50:44,916 --> 00:50:47,396 Speaker 3: You know, we don't need one hundred percent. We don't 1060 00:50:47,436 --> 00:50:50,116 Speaker 3: need our partners to be perfect. We need them to 1061 00:50:50,156 --> 00:50:52,156 Speaker 3: be there for us most of the time. We need 1062 00:50:52,156 --> 00:50:56,436 Speaker 3: a relationship that's good enough. That doesn't mean an unhealthy relationship. 1063 00:50:56,476 --> 00:50:58,516 Speaker 3: It doesn't mean an abusive relationship. It just means a 1064 00:50:58,556 --> 00:51:00,396 Speaker 3: relationship that's mostly satisfying. 1065 00:51:00,796 --> 00:51:03,396 Speaker 1: So don't miss the next episode of the Happiness Lab 1066 00:51:03,476 --> 00:51:06,676 Speaker 1: with me Doctor Laurie Santos,