1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I got an unusual 2 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 1: term for you. Some of you may not have heard 3 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: it if you've never lived near a large body of water, 4 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: particularly down a long coast. It's called rip wrap. It's defined. 5 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: It's like a collection of rock and concrete. It's kind 6 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: of cracked up. It forms the banks of waterways. It's 7 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: something that's man made that's put in place to prevent 8 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:50,200 Speaker 1: erosion and kind of delineates the shoreline of an area 9 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: that otherwise might give way to the forces of nature. 10 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: And it holds things. When you go, say, for instance, 11 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: beneath the bridge in these areas, you'll see rip rap. 12 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: It's not pleasant to stand on. Can't really fish from it, 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: I guess you could, but it's very uneven, and when 14 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: the tide goes out you can see more of it. 15 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: You can see what's there lying beneath what otherwise might 16 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: be covered with water. It collects all manner of things, 17 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: dead animals, vegetation, trash that's been discarded. But on a 18 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: day in the blazing sun of the Florida Panhandle, a 19 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: worker descended down into that uneven space that rip wrap, 20 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: and there at his feet lays suitcase, and within that 21 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: suitcase where the remains of Gannon Stock. We've already talked 22 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 1: about Gannon before on body Bags, but today we've got 23 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: more information and I wanted to provide an update because 24 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 1: at this moment in time as I speak, his stepmother 25 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: is on trial for his murder. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan 26 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: and this is Body Bags. Joining me today is my buddy, 27 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 1: Dave Mack, senior crime reporter with Crime Online, Nancy Grace. Dave, 28 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: I didn't know that we would make it to this day. 29 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: It seems like this trial has been off in the horizon, 30 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: never seemed like it would get here. I guess it's 31 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: that way with most big cases. But I'd say that 32 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: you certainly are invested in this case. I know that 33 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: you've been covering it for some time. 34 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: January twenty seventh of twenty twenty, Joe, you mentioned this 35 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 2: case has already been covered on Body Bags, and I 36 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 2: encourage you to go and listen to that show because 37 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:42,959 Speaker 2: there are things in there that will help round out 38 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 2: your understanding of what happened. But we now have information 39 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 2: that we didn't have until now, and so Joe, I 40 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: got to be honest to get through this story without 41 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: crying is going to require more than I have. Because 42 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: this little eleven year old boy was left in the 43 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 2: care of his stepmother. You know, his dad, Al served 44 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: in the National Guard. Al left January twenty fifth of 45 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 2: twenty twenty on assignment. He was leaving and so he 46 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 2: heads out of town two days later. Letitia, by the way, 47 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: she is pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, so 48 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: we can say she killed him, right. 49 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: It seems reasonable. Of course, everybody's innocent until proven guilty. 50 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: But her supposition, in her defense team supposition, is that 51 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: she's not to be held responsible for this. And let's 52 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: just put it plainly, the brutal and when I say brutal, 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: it ranks up there, Dave, I have to admit, after 54 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: what we found out, the brutal homicide of this precious 55 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: little boy Gannon. 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: When we started covering this, it was a missing person case. 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: You've got to remember January twenty seventh, he's reported missing. Okay, 58 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 2: Letitia was his stepmother. She told El Paso County Sheriff's 59 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: office that he left home between three point fifteen and 60 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: four pm local time to walk to a friend's house 61 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: in Colorado Springs. Joe, you and I both have kids. 62 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 2: Is there ever a time where you knew your child 63 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: left the house to go somewhere else and you didn't 64 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: know exactly what time it was within two or three minutes. 65 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something that you always keep tracked. 66 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 2: At forty five minute window. That was the first red flag. 67 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, particularly you know you're talking about you're talking about 68 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: a little boy. 69 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: There were a couple of different stories that Letitia told. 70 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: It took three days to change the classification to hey, 71 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: he left to go to a friend's house. Then they 72 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: on January thirties at missing in dangered person, and of 73 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: course we know what took place after that. His body 74 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: was found. Now, Joe, there are two months here, from 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 2: January twenty seventh to March twentieth, when his body was 76 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: recovered in that suitcase. And as you mentioned, the trial 77 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: is ongoing. We found out a number of things this week, 78 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: including the suitcase that was the body bag for this child. 79 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: It was brought into court. Okay, you've got an eleven 80 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 2: year old child that has been dead and I'm kind 81 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: of assuming dead since January twenty seventh. They don't find 82 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: his body in the suitcase until March twentieth in Florida. 83 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, in Florida. That's the big thing. Remember, this whole 84 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: thing starts in Colorado, where his body was found, though 85 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: it was not on I ten, which is major east 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: west thoroughfare in the interstate system. And for those that 87 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: don't know with interstates, if you have an interstate that 88 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: ends in a zero, those are east west, all right. 89 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: So we've got I ten, which is our most southerly 90 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: major interstate that runs east and west, and it runs 91 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: through the Panhandle. Anybody that's ever traveled from west of 92 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: Florida's that's heading in. If you're going to places like 93 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: Panama City Beach or Destined or even headed to Jacksonville, 94 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: you're going to be on Ien. And so off of 95 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: Ien on either side north and south there are little 96 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: parallel routes that run. And where Gannon's body was found 97 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: was actually in a tributary that eventually dumps into the 98 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: Gulf of Mexico. And I think that's key here when 99 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: you begin to think about body disposal. It's an absolute 100 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: stroke of luck. Is the only way I can say 101 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: that he was even found. This is a vast area, Dave. 102 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: If we take that idea that you're placing Gannon's body 103 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: that is contained within the suitcase into a body of 104 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 1: water that you know is heading north and south south 105 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: where the final destination is going to be the Gulf 106 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: of Mexico. The fact that it got hung up on 107 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: rocks on rip rap, as I mentioned earlier, and I 108 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: urge if you're not familiar with what rip rap looks like, 109 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: just go take a look. It's such an odd, odd 110 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,680 Speaker 1: term anyway, but go take a look and you'll see 111 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's kind of play into you have 112 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: to place it in there with big machinery. I know. 113 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: The first time I ever heard the term was actually 114 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: an association with Lake Poncha Train when I was living 115 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: down there, and they took old two Lane Stadium which 116 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: was demolished. It's actually where they used to play the 117 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: old Sugar Bowl, and they took it and demolished it 118 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: and they created rip rap out of it. It created 119 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: these kind of sea walls that extended out into Lake 120 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: Ponch Train in New Orleans, and you could walk out 121 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: and you could actually see the seat number still painted 122 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: on the rip rap and that's as big chunks of 123 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: concrete or kind of deciduous rock, they gather up and 124 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: they can place and create these these boundaries, if you will, 125 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: or wall sometimes and so it's kind of jagged. That's 126 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 1: the only saving grace here that that kind of captured 127 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: Gannon's body vis via the rip rap and him being 128 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: contained in the suitcase, and you're talking two months downrange 129 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: from the last time he was seen. It makes it 130 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: very difficult from what we've talked about a lot on 131 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: body bags, which is postmarim interval, because the environment down 132 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: in that area of the country is so harsh. It 133 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,119 Speaker 1: is I can't begin to describe it. If you've never 134 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 1: worked as a crime scene investigator, or as an emmy 135 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: investigator or a homicide investigator down those areas, things break 136 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 1: down very, very carefully. The only reason that Gannon's remains 137 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: would have remained intact is because of this encasement that 138 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: he was in contained within this suitcase. So he's literally 139 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: sealed up in it his remains. And I have to say, 140 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: based upon what we learned from direct testimony from the 141 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: medical examiner that examined Gannon's remains, I'm amazed she was 142 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: able to ascertain what she was able to ascertain. It 143 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,800 Speaker 1: is absolutely miraculous. That's the only way I can say it. 144 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 1: You've got this one in a million shot that you're 145 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,479 Speaker 1: going to have somebody come along and find the suitcase, 146 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: and then secondly that it would be preserved to the 147 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: extent that it was preserved, that you've got a forensic 148 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: pathologist that can interpret all that was left behind. 149 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: When you back up to where this began in Colorado 150 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 2: Springs to Colorado and Gannon is murdered and placed in 151 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: the suitcase. As an investigator, as somebody who does these 152 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: crime scenes, Joe, her story was that he was walking 153 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 2: to a friend's house. And granted there are five different 154 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 2: stories that she told, five different stories about what took place. 155 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 2: As investigators, as you come in to start looking over 156 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: a crime scene or potential crime scene, how do you 157 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: find blood if it's been cleaned up? How do if 158 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: somebody is killed and there's blood everywhere, how did they 159 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: actually find it if it's been cleaned up? 160 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: First off, you have to have a suspected area. You're 161 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: not just going to go through through what you believe 162 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: to be a potential crime scene and just randomly apply 163 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: these reagents to try to get the remnant of the 164 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: blood to luminas, that's what it's referred to. It has 165 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: a luminescent quality with luminol in particular. First off, you 166 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: have to be almost in total darkness in order to 167 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: appreciate it. And then once you apply the luminol, it 168 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: only lasts for a few seconds. So it's a matter 169 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: of application, and it's a matter of somebody being quick 170 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: with a camera, and it's a perfect perfect environment in 171 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: order to actualize that and to visualize it and then 172 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: to capture it to document it, because what you're trying 173 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: to document, first off, is not just that there may 174 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: have been blood there, but you're also trying to interpret 175 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: the dynamics of the blood. You know, is this a 176 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: dynamic deposition of blood in this area where it is 177 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 1: sprayed or cast off in this environment, or is it 178 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: something that's passively dripping, like off of the end of 179 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: some type of weapon that you would bludge in somebody 180 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: with if you're standing over the body, or maybe a 181 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: knife that you're holding in your hand that you know, 182 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: you just have blood just kind of passively dripping off 183 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: the tip as you're standing over that area. So a 184 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: lot of stuff has to come together in order to 185 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: try to understand it. It's it's fascinating we're having this 186 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: conversation because I was given a lecture in my medical 187 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: legal death investigation class at Jacksonville State the other day 188 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: on the topic of death related to abuse and neglect, 189 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: and I was trying to emphasize to the class that 190 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: it's important that you go even if there's not a 191 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: body of the scene, and many times with children there's not. 192 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 1: They go into the hospital. You go to the hospital 193 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: to obviously examine the body there and get the report 194 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: from the empts and the physicians, but you need to 195 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: go back out to the scene. And one of the 196 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 1: things that we find, it seems many times, particularly with kids. 197 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: I was relating to the class that I'd gone out 198 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: on two scenes that I could remember over the course 199 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: of my career where you walk in and the room 200 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: smells like pine saw and pine sal is very distinctive. 201 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: It fills the air. It's very aromatic, and not necessarily 202 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: in a good way. I remember it. I remember it 203 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: from the barracks in the Army. The Army had an 204 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 1: unending supply of pine saw. So you have that smell 205 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: and you think, well, does the environment normally smell like 206 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: pine sal in here. Well, that's another thing you're looking for. 207 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 1: You're looking to go into these homes and many times 208 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: or locations and you think, well, you know what, there's 209 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: a heavy smell of bleach. People think that bleach is 210 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,959 Speaker 1: the answer to everything, and of course bleach is not 211 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: necessarily going to defeat any kind of stains that are 212 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,599 Speaker 1: left behind. So that's just one of the things that 213 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,599 Speaker 1: we look for, you know it scenes whether it's in 214 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: a dwelling where the people are domiciled, or a vehicle 215 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 1: for instance, you try to get a sense in that 216 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: environment what is left behind, What exactly is the evidence 217 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: trying to tell you, even at a molecular level, that 218 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: has been left behind of what kind of violence may 219 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: or may not have occurred in this location. Sometimes when 220 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: you're walking through unknown territory, places you haven't been before, 221 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: you need a guide. And in my world in forensics, 222 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,839 Speaker 1: one of the best guides you can have when it 223 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: comes to death investigation is a forensic pathologist. And of course, 224 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: in my opinion, I've been around for you in my career. 225 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 1: The one that I saw provide testimony out in Colorado 226 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,400 Speaker 1: rinks right up there. What a fantastic job she did. 227 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: There are so many questions I have for you that 228 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: I think a lot of people wonder because we're so 229 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: conditioned to what takes place on TV and in movies. 230 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: We know, based on the investigation and the trial that 231 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: this crime scene was in Gannon's bedroom in the house. 232 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: When police come in, When investigators come into a story 233 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 2: where they're told the boy ran away or he went 234 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: missing or whatever, police have red flags and they immediately know, Okay, 235 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: we have to go down this path because this is 236 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: the story she's telling today and we have to investigate it. 237 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: But aren't they going to immediately start looking around at 238 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: the house and see what is a miss? They know 239 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: the house has been cleaned because story she had originally 240 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: told them she had been raped by a man in 241 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: the home and that he had absconded with Gannon. At 242 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: what point do the investigators start looking for blood evidence 243 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: or any kind of evidence inside the home because they 244 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: know that her story is not sticking, it's not standing 245 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: up to any kind of scrutiny. 246 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: The main indicator here is what locations do most people 247 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: inhabit within a home, and I think default from a 248 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: default perspective, if you're talking about kids, you're going to 249 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: go to their bedrooms. You're going to want to know 250 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: is there anything that looks amiss because you're going to 251 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: spend most of your time in the bedroom. It's a 252 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: place that you're most familiar with kids. That's where they 253 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: have their toys or gaming systems or clothes, just their 254 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: their school books. Everything that kind of revolves around their 255 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: little world is contained therein So odds are they would 256 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: spend quite a bit of time there, and you're going 257 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: to look and if there's some kind of indicator when 258 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: you walk in, Like let's just say, for instance, you're 259 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: doing a walk through at a scene and you're going 260 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: from room to room. You know, you go from one room, 261 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: maybe the family room, and it looks neat and ordered, 262 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: But then maybe you go to Gannon's room and it's 263 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: like really really neat. It's like really really clean. As 264 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, maybe there's an odor there of cleanser. Okay, 265 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: maybe maybe the bed. I don't know about you. When 266 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: I was eleven years old, I wasn't really good at 267 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: making a bed. But you look at his bed, maybe 268 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: maybe it looks like he can bounce a quarter off 269 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: of it. All right, It is just something that eleven 270 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: year old boy would have done. Is everything neatly put away, 271 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: neatly folded. I'm not saying that mom wouldn't go in 272 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: behind you and do all that stuff for you. However, 273 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: odds are that if something appears to be too good 274 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: to be true, it probably is. So to your original question, yeah, 275 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: the investigators are going to fold over into that and 276 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: really begin to dig down into this area, particularly if 277 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: they have a search warrant. Just so folks understand, if 278 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: you have a search warrant, you have to name in 279 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: that search warrant where you're going to search, even if 280 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: it's within the residence. You can't just randomly really nearly 281 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: rip somebody's house apart. You have to be able to 282 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: describe this to a judge. It has to be specifically 283 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: laid out in the search warrant. And you say we're 284 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: going to search Gannon's bedroom, you know, we're going to 285 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: go through the all the associated articles within there, including 286 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: the closets. But you're not going to do that throughout 287 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: the entire house, all right, So there has to be 288 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: something that's going to lead you there, and most of 289 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 1: the time that's going to arise from a couple of places, 290 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: either from an initial walkthrough, when this call comes out 291 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: and he's missing, well that PILs the police to go 292 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: to the house to do just a welfare check. You 293 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: got a missing kids, so we're going to walk through 294 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: the house. Maybe initially the cops walked through and they said, wow, 295 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: this really smells really like it's been freshly cleaned in here. Well, 296 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: that gives you. That gives you cause at that point 297 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: in time to include that in the warrant. We really 298 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: want to focus your honor on this specific area of 299 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 1: the house. And so there might be specific areas where 300 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: you think something may have happened, but you can't prove it. 301 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: You need to dig deeper, and that's going to require 302 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: search warrant. So you go back and then then once 303 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: you have that search warrant, you go in and you 304 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: begin to do things like pull up carpet, you begin 305 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: to flip mattresses, check and see if the walls have 306 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: been freshly painted. I've had that happen before. You apply 307 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: reagents like like something like luminol or blue star or 308 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,960 Speaker 1: those types of reagents to see if you can make 309 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: any kind of presentation where you think that blood may 310 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: have been and that's going to be a big indicator 311 00:18:58,800 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: for you. 312 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 2: We do know, based on the affidavit, there was a 313 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 2: lot of evidence in Gannon's bedroom, the blood spatter on 314 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 2: the walls. There was enough blood that in that child's 315 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: bedroom to soak through the mattress, soak through the carpet, 316 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: the carpet pad, and stained the concrete below his bed. 317 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: I have to wonder what condition his body was in. 318 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: We've got a body that's not found for two months. 319 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: We've got a body of an eleven year old that 320 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: was in a suitcase that was in Florida in the water. 321 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: What would you expect to find. This is an interesting 322 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: point with this case, David. I'll tell you why. This 323 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: pathologist though Gannon's remains were let's face it, they're severely decomposed, 324 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: all right, But she came armed with that information that 325 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: you were just talking about, even though she's down in Florida, 326 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: and they they come to the conclusion pretty quickly that 327 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: it is Gannon's remains. I would imagine if they weren't 328 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 1: on a plane, they were certainly on the phone. Police officers, 329 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: investigators out in Colorado are speaking, all right, they're speaking 330 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 1: to the investigators in Florida. They're speaking to the m's 331 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: office down in Florida, and what they're telling him is like, look, 332 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: we've got a scene up here that looks like, holy hell, 333 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 1: we know that there's going to be there was a 334 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: significant blood letting within this environment. Can you imagine when 335 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: doctor Ignacio opened that suitcase there at the mme's office 336 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: and she's observing the mortal remains of this little little boy. 337 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: She had no idea who he was, but she sees 338 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: all of this trauma. She's trying to figure this out 339 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: and trying to kind of work out the calculus in 340 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: her brain essentially as to how all this went down. 341 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 1: She's having to look at this and say, God, wherever 342 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: he was, there has to have been a tremendous amount 343 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,439 Speaker 1: of blood. Well, guess what, She's already seemingly got an 344 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: answer to this question. And that's a huge step for 345 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: you from a medical legal standpoint, because there's stuff that 346 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: you now you can kind of connect the dots, whereas 347 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: many times you might be at a disadvantage. And the 348 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: fact that he still had soft tissue, because you know 349 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: she's going in to describe injuries here, well, it's hard 350 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: to describe injuries when you don't have soft tissue if 351 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: you're just dealing with skeletal remains. So we know that 352 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: there was a significant amount of soft tissue left behind, 353 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: so that she could make this interpretation. When you're looking 354 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: back and you begin to understand how much blood was 355 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: in that residence at that location, it's coming into focus 356 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: at that moment in time. Okay, well, this explains this 357 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: at the scene, this presentation that they're seeing. Maybe you've 358 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: got blunt force trauma, which he did, you've got a 359 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: gunshot wound which he had, sharp force injury which he possessed. 360 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: Many of that's going to explain some of the dynamics 361 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: at the scene that will perhaps create some kind of 362 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: correlation between what you're seeing when these decomposed remains and 363 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: what you're finding it the scene. And the fact that 364 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: this doctor caught this case is fascinating to me. And 365 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of an odd ball situation 366 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: because you've got a case that originates in Colorado and 367 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: winds up being discovered down in Florida. And I think 368 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: many people would question, well, why didn't they just take 369 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: his body back to Colorado to do the example? First off, 370 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: if it is a homicide. 371 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 2: How do you not I rule out a homicide an 372 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: eleven year old is dead inside of a suitcase found 373 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 2: at the water's edge. 374 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: Well, we can't assume anything because we live in a 375 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: world inhabited by attorneys and we have to be very, 376 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: very thorough and so the the question is not is 377 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: it a homicide? The question is more where did the 378 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: homicide take place? First off, you have to establish the identification. 379 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: That's one of the hallmarks in medical legal death investigation. 380 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: There's three principles that we work upon, and that's determining 381 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: manner death, cause of death, and identification. And you learn 382 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: so much about a deceased individual when you figure out 383 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: who they are, because suddenly history comes pouring in at 384 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: that moment time. You can begin to track them back 385 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: from where they were and where they wound up and 386 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: all in, what the family dynamic is like, what their 387 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: life was like, simply based on an identification. So you 388 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: have to establish that. And if you remove him from 389 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: that state to take him back to Colorado in order 390 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 1: to do the autopsy, there's always that question, is this 391 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: Florida jurisdiction or is it Colorado jurisdiction? Well, it's kind 392 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: of a shared jurisdiction, if you will. We know that 393 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,360 Speaker 1: the body was deposited in Florida. There's a huge difference 394 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: between the deposition of a body and where that body 395 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: met its end by law. So I think that the 396 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: working idea here to keep everybody on the same sheet 397 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: of music is you don't want to destroy evidence, and 398 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 1: certainly that could happen because this is very, very fragile, Dave, 399 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: very fragile. We've already talked about how long Gannon had 400 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: been down The fact that they decided to do the 401 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: autopsy there in that particular district is indicative of how 402 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: much care they were taking. People in Colorado were like, hey, look, 403 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: we're good with this. You go ahead and do the 404 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: autopsy down there. And I think a lot of people 405 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 1: get confused over this, particularly when you've got these multi 406 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: jurisdictional kinds of things, because people don't understand how the 407 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: system works. And back to what I was saying about 408 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: doctor Gnascio when she did this autopsy, do you know 409 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 1: that she was actually covering for this district. Florida doesn't 410 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: have corners, they have district medical examiners. You've got like 411 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: District seven and District eight nine and all those sorts 412 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 1: of things. The state is broken down into multi county jurisdictions, 413 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: and she happened to be working in an adjacent district 414 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: and there's not that many forensic pathologists, so they cover 415 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: for one another. So she was taking call for that 416 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: jurisdiction or covering this cases. Why. I don't know, maybe 417 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: one pathologist was testifying, or they were taking some time off, 418 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: which they need because there's so many cases and there's 419 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: so few of them. 420 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 2: So it was just happenstance that she ended up getting this. 421 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, isn't that something? And now she's in a different 422 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: district in Florida than she originally was, so she's kind 423 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: of moved around within the state, which happens. She's licensed 424 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: in the state of Florida. She I think she did 425 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: her fellowship in forensics actually down in Miami Dade, which 426 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: is a fantastic medical Examiner's office for training, and so 427 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: she's very familiar with this area and so that's why 428 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: her her testimony gave so much weight. But you know, 429 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: you've got the forensic pathologist that has to travel from 430 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 1: Florida to Colorado to offer up testimony because they've come 431 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: to the conclusion based upon their scientific assessment that the 432 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 1: amount of blood that they found at that residence is 433 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: what we refer to as incompatible with life. That means 434 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: that so much blood was lost that there is a 435 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: high probability that that homicide took place there. And she 436 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: was seeing the final results of this and another skill 437 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: set that she has that say, for instance, the people 438 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 1: out in Colorado that maybe they've exclusively worked there. She's 439 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: familiar with this tropical environment, Dave. She's very familiar with 440 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: saltwater environment. Think about her training. All of these cases 441 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: that she works down there, they're subject to the environment 442 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 1: that is dictated by what is Florida the rated decomposition. 443 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: It measures out differently than say, for instance, in Colorado. 444 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: Those are two very distinct geographic locations. And so she's 445 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: the best person to kind of interpret. And this is 446 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: most important, I think when we're trying to establish a timeline, 447 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: how long again and actually been deceased, and how long 448 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: had you been in that suitcase. Because we have people 449 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: that do this job that stare down at all that 450 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: remains even in the worst circumstances, we can kind of 451 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: begin to formulate an idea. The question is, once that 452 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: idea is formulated, are you capable as a forensic practitioner 453 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: of expressing that in a courtroom to get that point 454 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: across to a jury? Can you lay that out in 455 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: layman's terms? And that's what happened in this courtroom in 456 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: Colorado with this forensic pathologist Dave. 457 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,200 Speaker 2: Before you go to a peer in a trial where 458 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: you're trying to tell the story of the victim, do 459 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: you try to keep your emotions in check or do 460 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: you allow that human side of things so the jury 461 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 2: knows you're not just teaching a course on this, but 462 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: actually being emotional and enough to make them realize this 463 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: is an eleven year old boy we're talking about. This 464 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 2: is not a two hundred year old skeleton we found 465 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 2: in the desert. This is a child who should be 466 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 2: playing baseball right now. How do you do that as 467 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 2: a as a forensic person. 468 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, as a forensics person, I think I couldn't do it. Now. 469 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't. I'd openly weep there's no way. But I 470 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: remember the man that I was all those years ago 471 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: when I would have to give to cestimony about what 472 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: I was finding. It seems you do your best to 473 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: remain as clinical as you possibly can and let the 474 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: jury draw their conclusions. And here's the thing. You need 475 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: to remain as clinical as you possibly can before the 476 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: jury because if you openly start to weep on the 477 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: stand over the death of a child like and trust me, Dave, 478 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: if anybody, if any child that has ever walked this 479 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: earth deserves to have tears shed over his life, and 480 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: the loss of life is gannon all right, But you 481 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: cannot allow that to come through because that can be 482 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: viewed as prejudicial. So you have to fight this fight. 483 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: It's tough, I mean, it really is. So thank you 484 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 1: for asking me that question, because it's one of those 485 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: things that it just it punches you right in the face, 486 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: particularly when you're reflective about it, after you've walked out 487 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: of the courtroom, you've gotten off the stand and you 488 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: realize what you've just mane discussing. There are those moments 489 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: and I have to believe that the forends of pathologist 490 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: in this case did that. I watched her testimony and 491 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: she was very stalwart when her descriptors, you know, didn't 492 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: emote a bunch of sadness and all those sorts of things. 493 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: There's only so much sadness that you you know that 494 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: you can respond to in your own life. And trust me, 495 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: this pathologist has seen her share. I mean she's worked 496 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: everywhere all over Florida. She's seen some really bad cases, 497 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: and she did I think that to remain clinical. People 498 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: view that as cold. On the contrary, I view it 499 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: as doing your best job that you can for Cannon, Okay, 500 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: because there has to be somebody that's willing to face 501 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: the mailstrom and describe what they saw that that would 502 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: make weaker people fold, you know, under understand what she's 503 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: what she's describing to everybody here in very clinical, right. 504 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 2: Well, we've known about some of the wounds, okay, we 505 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 2: knew about eighteen apparent stab wounds. We knew about a 506 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 2: gunshot wound to the lower left jaw. We knew about 507 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 2: cuts on the hands and arms consistent with defensive wounds. 508 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 2: But to actually share that's just the outline. Because I'm 509 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 2: trying to figure out as a layperson, I need to 510 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 2: understand what these actually mean, what the actual impact of 511 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: these were, because coming into it dry, I'm thinking, Okay, 512 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: she drugged him with Laura said he was lethargic. He's 513 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: laying in bed, she cuts him, she kills him, and 514 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: then she puts them in the suitcase, and there we go. 515 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: That is not what happened at all. 516 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: No, it's not. However, I will say that they found 517 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: hydro codone and a set of menifin in his system. 518 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: Of course it couldn't. You know, you can't at this 519 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: point relative to decomposition. You can't place a number to 520 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: it to say that he had been odeed in some 521 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: way or that he was even in a state where 522 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: he lacked awareness. I think that just by looking at 523 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: what the forensic pathologist has interpreted as defensive injuries gives 524 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: you an idea that he did not lack awareness. He 525 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: knew what was going on. There's part of you, I 526 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: think that you wish that he hadn't okay, but that's 527 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: evidenced in the fact that he had some kind of 528 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: response to pain because of his hands. He had multiple 529 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: cuts on the surfaces of his hands and his fingers. 530 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: You know, those images were just when they displayed those 531 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: in court, it was quite striking and you could still 532 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: This is the fascinating thing about the status of his 533 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: remains is that they were still appreciable day that like 534 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: if you're in the jury and you've never been exposed 535 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: to a severely decomposed body, you can look at that 536 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: image and say, oh, that's a hand. You know, that's 537 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 1: definitely a hand, and what she's describing you can actually 538 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: see the injuries, and then when she gets into it, 539 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 1: you understand form and function at that point in time. 540 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: The incredible things about this now I think people would say, well, Morgan, 541 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: if you if you can't quantify the number relative to 542 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: the level of these drugs that were in a system, 543 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: how do you arrive at the conclusion that they were 544 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,120 Speaker 1: even there anyway? Well, there's not going to be any 545 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 1: there's not going to be any blood to test from 546 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: a toxicological standpoint in the sense of how we would 547 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: normally test it. And one of the things that some 548 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: folks might not be aware of that when we have 549 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 1: a severely decomposed body, there's a couple of ways that 550 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: we test for any kind of substance that's there. Go 551 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: to deliver into the kidneys. Now, they will be decomposed, obviously, 552 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: but there will still be enough of a remnant there 553 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: that you can cut a section of liver, place it 554 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 1: into a tube, a centrifuge, if you will. People have 555 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: seen a centrifuge. It spins around, and it spins around 556 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: to the point where it liquifies solid or like liver, 557 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 1: and spins it down that liquifies it, you draw it up, 558 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: and then when you draw it up, you can actually 559 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: test it, and you can test it for the presence 560 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,040 Speaker 1: of any number of different substances that are contained in 561 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 1: the system. Another thing that we do with decomposing bodies, 562 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: we can actually take maggots from a body, and remember 563 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: the maggots have been present with the body, have been 564 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: digesting the body. You can collect those and spin those 565 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: down as well. In certain cases you can find remnant 566 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: of opiate. You can also find cocaine in maggots as 567 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: well after you spin them down in liquify them, which 568 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,760 Speaker 1: I've always found just absolutely fascinated. 569 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 2: That's unbelievable. I didn't have any idea you could do that. 570 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it isn't that something. And so you have to 571 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: bring every tool that you have to bear here. And 572 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: the fact that he had medication on board goes into 573 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: this narrative. Why are you applying a substance like a 574 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: hydro codone, which is used this a painkiller. How much 575 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: were you giving this child. He's only eleven years old, 576 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: and as we know, it can make you loopy. As 577 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, people die from it, die from 578 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: overdoses all the time. 579 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: Oddly enough, the actual medication, the hydro codone, was prescribed 580 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 2: to his father, Al Al had a finger injury and 581 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: he had been given this hydro coda and a set 582 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: of benifit as a pain reliever. He didn't take all 583 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,839 Speaker 2: of it, and the medication was in his nightstand drawer, 584 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 2: and it was the location and what was in it 585 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 2: was only known to Al and Letitia. Nobody else knew 586 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,360 Speaker 2: what was in there or where it was, so she 587 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: knew where it was. They actually brought that up and 588 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,439 Speaker 2: actually gave it to Gannon in some way. 589 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: But obviously that was not sufficient to the task because 590 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: what doctor Gnatcio wound up determining is that and just 591 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: featured this just for a second. This child actually sustained 592 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:02,399 Speaker 1: eighteen stab onos. Just let that sink in. Eighteen plus 593 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: he was shot. You know, you talked about this gsw 594 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: that he's got. I think it was through the left 595 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: jaw that was, you know, the coup de gras. If 596 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,279 Speaker 1: you will and he's got blunt force trauma that has 597 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: resulted in lacerations. Remember we've talked about on body backs before. 598 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: There's a difference between the laceration and sharp force injuries. 599 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: Lacerations arise from blunt force trauma. So you know, you 600 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: can be beaten, you can be kicked, you can be 601 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: bludgeoned with something, you know, like a heavy object, and 602 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: that's going to result in these lacerations which don't have 603 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: clean margins. They've got this kind of connective tissue that 604 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: we call tissue bridging that are left behind when you 605 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: have a stab wound. That means that you're talking about 606 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: like a milled edge that creates these margins that are 607 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: very distinctive. Okay, here's the tough thing though, Dave, when 608 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: you begin to think about how compromised the body would 609 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: be due to decomposition, one of the obstacles that you 610 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: really have to overcome is the interpretation of these wounds. 611 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: Once an area of human remain has been insulted in 612 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: some way, whether it's a gunshot wound, stab wound, bloot 613 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: force trauma, you open up an area and when that 614 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: area is opened up because it is exposed, that soft 615 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: tissue is exposed that promotes more or more rapid decomposition 616 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: in that specific area. And if the body is exposed 617 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 1: to the elements in this case, of course it wasn't 618 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: the case would gain them. But if you have the 619 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: body out in a say a wooded area, just laying 620 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: on the floor of a forest, we're going to have 621 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: larval development with maggots and flies and all that sort 622 00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:50,879 Speaker 1: of stuff, and then you have the chance that vermin 623 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: are going to come by and that area begins to 624 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: break down. So the trick is, do you have the 625 00:37:55,719 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: skill set in order to interpret what is decomposition what 626 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: we refer to as decompositional artifact versus some kind of 627 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: anti mortem injury or fatal injury anti mortem being before death. 628 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: And so that's a real skill set that you have 629 00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: to have to obtain and refine over a period of time, 630 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,000 Speaker 1: and many times it's dictated by the environment which you practice. 631 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: And that's why it's so essential that this particular practitioner, 632 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: this fantastic medical examiner, was from Florida, that she was 633 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 1: able to see all of these injuries and appreciate them 634 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: and contextualize them from the environment in which Cannon's body 635 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: was discovered. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags.