WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 161 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:03.120 Also media. 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.680 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:09.360 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:12.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.439 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:18.960 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:20.880 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:22.680 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.040 --> 0:00:24.840 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:30.160 Hello, and welcome to Kadokin here. I'm Andrew Siege. I'm 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:34.840 on andre'sm on YouTube, and I'm not on YouTube right now. 0:00:34.920 --> 0:00:37.760 I'm on kak here, and I'm joined by the disembodied 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:38.720 voice of the one in. 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:40.280 Orny Garrison Davis. 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:42.840 Yes, well one and only that I know of, unless 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:46.519 there's another one going around, which would be creaky. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:47.920 That might be. That might be. 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:53.880 But see, I want to continue our journey through Latin 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:58.080 americanicisms and their histories. Now, compared to all the other 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.760 countries I've discussed so far, such as Peru and Chile 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:06.280 and Argentina and Brazil and Cuba, this one had a 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.560 bit less information about anarchism in its past, So this 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:12.960 will be a sort of a smaller sangwiche and anarchist 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.959 history perhaps fit in of the country that is sandwiched 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:22.440 between Argentina and Brazil. Speaking of course, about Paraguay, known 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.000 for its fraud history of warfare, politically volatile landscape, series 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:32.080 of dictatorships, and indigenously intertwined cultural and social fabric, anarchism 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.720 took root in this rather unique setting, and downs to 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:41.160 the work of Anhill Capelletti and a few other scattered sources, 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.680 I've been able to piece together the history of anarchism 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:51.080 in Paraguay without further ado nos comencemos. For much of 0:01:51.120 --> 0:01:54.960 its early history, Paraguay's identity was distinct within South America, 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.160 from its time as a Guarani settlement to its formation 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:01.800 as a Spanish colony in the sixteenth century. Spanish Jesuit 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:06.000 missionaries wielded significant influence, and for over a century Paraguay 0:02:06.080 --> 0:02:09.480 was a self sustained colony with a rigidly hierarchical system 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:14.200 based on the Spanish castor system. Paraguay's economy primarily revolved 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:18.079 around agriculture and cattlehooded unlike the mining economies and other 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.440 Spanish territories. The Guarani people had a significant cultural impact 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.200 throughout Paraguay's history, and their language and traditions rained central 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.520 even as Paraguay evolved through the centuries. Even today, most 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:35.440 of the population speaks some variety of Guarani alongside Spanish. 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:38.919 Fast forward to the early nineteenth century, as South American 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.680 nations began de clearing independence from Spain, Paraguay took a 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:47.920 unique approach. Rather than aligning with the neighboring revolutionary movements, Paraguay, 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.920 under the leadership of Jose Gasparrodriguez dev Definancia, declared independence 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:58.399 in eighteen eleven and adopted an isolationist authoritarian path. Francia 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.720 ruled as the country's spreme dictator for nearly three decades, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:09.120 envisioning a self sufficient, cometic society. He strictly controlled foreign influences, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:14.720 banned European migration, and restricted trade. By the mid nineteenth century, 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.840 Paraguay had built up a significancy infrastructure under Francia's successor, 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:23.560 Carlos Antonio Lopez. However, this era of economic development was 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.040 short lived, as Paraguay entered the catastrophic War of the 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:31.440 Triple Alliance between eighteen sixty four and eighteen seventy against Brazil. 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:37.760 Argentina and Uruguay over territorial disputes. This conflict proved disastrous 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:42.960 for Paraguay as they suffered staggering losses. Nearly seventy percent 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:47.640 of its population died, its economy was shattered, and its 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:52.520 territory was significantly reduced. And yes, you heard me right, 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:56.520 nearly seventy percent of its population perished, including most of 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.400 its male population, in the wars. Aftermath, paragua I was 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.840 plunged into political chaos, economic ruin, and a period of 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.000 foreign interventions. Due to the economic devastation of the war, 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.320 the country became indebted to British creditors. With that leverage, 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.200 Britain pushed for the development of a free market economy 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.839 and privatization, which brought Paraguay into closer contact with the 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.240 global economy and eventually led to a more pronounced class 0:04:21.240 --> 0:04:26.080 divide and establishment of an exploitive agricultural exports system. Land 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.200 that had once been communitly managed was swiftly privatized, driving 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.240 indigenous communities and small farmers off their lands and into 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.680 the workforce of larger estates. On those estates, workers would 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.520 find themselves in debt bondage tied to the estates as 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.840 small debts at workers over to landowners, with spiral into 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:48.360 insurmountable debts that would become nearly impossible to repay. Laborers 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.320 called pionees, were typically paid in voltures or script that 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:55.200 could only be redeemed at the estate's store, where prices 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.440 were exorbitantly inflated. Any attempt to leave or challenge the 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:03.880 condition was met with violent repercussions from estate managers, creating 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:07.240 a cycle of economic entrapment that was essentially slavery by 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:11.159 another name. Paraguay became a country of ever more wealthy 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:15.120 and powerful landowners with a struggle in rural working class. 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.880 As twentieth century approached, the labour struggles and social divisions 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:24.159 then Paraguay and society were clearing. Cron inequality. Explosive working conditions, 0:05:24.200 --> 0:05:26.720 and the dislocation of addious communities created footire ground for 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:31.960 radical ideas among rural campusinos and urban workers. European immigrants 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:35.400 flee in political oppression brought with them some rather radical 0:05:35.400 --> 0:05:38.240 ideas that began to resonate with paragund workers who were 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.479 desperate for a way out of their circumstances. For people 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.400 who had survived centuries of oppression, and authoritarian rule. Anarchism 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.320 had a unique appeal. By the eighteen eighties, workers in 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.760 Paraguay had become organized in mutual aid societies, and one 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.560 such society of typographers would organize themselves into a union, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.720 the first in the country's history. By eighteen eighty six. 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:04.480 That same year, so the rise of construction workers, carpenters, tailors, 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:05.480 postal workers. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:06.200 And bakers unions. 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.719 Those Bakers Roles conduct countries first ever strike action in 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:23.720 October of eighteen eighty six. The first distinctly anarchist publication 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:25.840 I could find in Paraguay was organized by a group 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:29.560 called those eCos del Chaco, who published a libertarian manifesto 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:33.159 in eighteen ninety two. They call themselves anarchist communists and 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.039 declare their intent to abolish private property, the clergy, the state, 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:38.200 and the armed forces. 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:39.039 Quote. 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.080 We seek the complete emancipation of the proletariat as we 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.960 fight abolished the unjust exportation of man by man. We 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.799 dedicate all of our moral and physical strength to overturn 0:06:47.880 --> 0:06:51.840 all attorneys established genuine liberty, equality and fraternity in the 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:55.240 human family. We needs to transform private property into a 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.919 common good. We needed to do so because individual property 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.479 is a basic cause of all these afflictors. It is 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.600 on that basis that the dregs of humanity, government, clerics, lawyers, militaries, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.359 entrepreneurs maintain themselves in power, live as parasites, and they 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:12.160 continued enjoyment to their funder of finances large armies with 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:13.320 the products. 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:14.600 Of our labor end court. 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.000 Even prior to that manifesto, anarchists were making moves in 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.880 the Graphic, Railway and bakers unions as early as eighteen 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:23.320 eighty nine, fighting for and win in the eight hour 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.240 workday by nineteen oh one. Strike actions in this period 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.240 were focused on that goal, alongside wage increases and then 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.680 improvements to working conditions. The anarchists also tried to establish 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.360 a national Trade union center, but unfortunately did not succeed. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:39.520 In eighteen ninety two, thanks in part to the growing 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:42.760 Spanish and Argentine immigrant populations, there was a wave of 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.880 the Berterian union formation throughout Paraguay. The anarchists was quite 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.480 successful among the peasantry, as they helped organize armed resistance 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.520 societies to aid in their struggles against the landowners. Anarchists 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.760 also managed to establish Raphael Barrett Cultural Center in the 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.679 early nineties hosting an impressed collection of books by fellow 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.880 Paraguayan and foreign writers, and embolding in the formation and 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:08.400 even more trade unions. Raphael Barrett, by the way, is 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:11.200 one of the most significant figures in Paraguay and anarchist history, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:15.119 according to every account I've read. Born in Toda Vega, Spain, 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:18.280 in eighteen seventy six, but Thatt's early life was typical 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.600 of a well to do intellectual. He studied languages, piano, 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:25.320 and eventually engineering. By his late twenties, he was drawn 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.200 to Latin America, partly by adventure and partly to make 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.920 a difference. Driven by a growing commitment to justice and solidarity, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.080 he arrived in Budas Airis in nineteen oh three, where 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.599 he found work as a journalist, soon making ways with 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.480 an article that condemned the stock inequality he observed in 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.840 Argentina's capital. This critique cost him his job, yet had 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:47.720 deepened his dedication to speak for those who were voiceless. 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.120 But as experiences of CEA and European Americrant workers toiling 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.720 in the brutal conditions fueled his indignation against unchecked wealth 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.760 and poverty's vicious hold on the working class. In nineteen 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.560 oh four, but I made a way to Paraguay. He 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:05.000 essentially welcomed as a correspondent for LTMBO and even held 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.320 government positions, including as a director of the Department of 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.760 Engineers and the Railroad Agency. But his comitments, exposed in 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:14.120 the country's political and social rot soon put him at 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.480 odds with Paraguay's new liberal government. He saw that simply 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:21.000 swapping our conservative leaders for liberals did little to improve 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.040 conditions for ordinary Paraguayans, as demonstrated by the continuous labor 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.200 struggles that arose and response to the industrialization undertaken by the 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.880 liberal government. Workers were fighting to abolished child label, improve 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.400 their conditions, increase wages, and so on. He couldn't stand 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.640 by in silence, so he resigned from government service, now 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.080 fully committed to social justice, even as his grown radicalism 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.480 began to alienate the political elite. Brett's personal experiences sharpened 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:50.040 his perspective, transformed him from a sympathetic observer to a 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:55.040 dedicated anarchist. His writings in Criminal became essential reading for 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.240 workers and peasants alike, urging them to see beyond two 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:02.400 professional reforms and to child the entire structure of pressure, 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.679 Barrett condemned the government's abuses and spoke out against exploitive 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.880 systems that kept the majority of Paraguayan's martialized. He was 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:15.720 a fiery advocate for social justice, and one write in particular, 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.760 Acasto Roa Bastos, called him the discoverer of Paraguayan's social reality, 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.480 because Burrett didn't just observe these injustices, he threw himself 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.400 into exposing and condemned them with fuvor. His impact was 0:10:28.440 --> 0:10:30.360 so significant that even when he was forced to flee 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:34.120 Paraguay in nineteen oh eight under government pressure, his ideas endured. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.360 His health was deteriorating from tibergulosis, where he continued to write, 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:42.520 receiving support from intellectual comrades in Uruguay and Brazil. His 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:46.000 final years were just a continuation if his relentless dedication, 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:51.000 even as his health continued to decline. In nineteen ten, 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.880 he went to Paris to seek treatment, but his health 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.200 failed and he passed away in December of that year. 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:00.880 But just before Barret's exile and passing in nineteen oh six, 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.280 the anarchists would form the first and for some time 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.439 only workers Federation in the country by joining together the illustrators, 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.800 carpenters and drivers unions. Rafaelberad actually became something of a 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:15.160 thought leader for this group, and this was the Federacion 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.719 Opreia Astricanal Paraguay or four, partially inspired by the Federacion 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:23.920 Obrera Reginal Argentina or FURA, where they borrowed many of 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.880 their programmatic ideas. If you recall the episodes I did 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:29.640 on Argentina, you know that the reasoning for the name 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.960 was ideological. By adding the adjective regional, it made plain 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.640 that the country in question, whether Paraguay or Argentina, was 0:11:37.679 --> 0:11:40.600 not being considered a state or political unit, but a 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.520 region of the world in which workers struggled for their liberation. 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.120 Soon after its founding, on the first of May nineteen 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:50.120 oh six, the Fourth held the country's first international Workers 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.839 Data demonstration, despite police attempts to shut it down. For 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.600 also launched their official publication, El Espertade in the same year, 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:00.640 and the paper carried articles what the anarchist movements in 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.560 Europe and Latin America. Printed works by authors such as 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.960 Peter Kopotkin and Selmo Ronzo published reports of the Forbes 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:11.280 activities named and shamed and known strike breakers and encouraged 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:14.680 its members to pay their union dues promptly. Subsequent years 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.880 would introduce other libertarian newspapers such as Ladra Billion, La 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.800 Tribuna and Acil Futuro. After the nineteen oh eight coup 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:26.240 by Emiliano Gonsalves Naverro, they stabilized the economy and restricted 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:30.720 Assuncion's labor movement. Anarchism still found strength among rural and 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:35.160 tanan industry workers, despite increasing hostility from figures like Presidents 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.360 Condre and Jarre. Labor strikes continued, which were met by 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.640 fierce repression, arrests, and forced deportations. With the outbreak of 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.400 the Paraguay and Civil War from nineteen eleven to nineteen twelve, 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.480 anarchists and other labor organizations faced a government crackdown. Groups 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:55.880 like the Four became inactive temporarily, at least by nineteen thirteen. 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:59.000 In the wake of the war, a schism was emergent 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:03.040 as some unions move move toward reformist ideologies, influencing part 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:08.080 by the populist Colorado Party. Meanwhile, Four reaffirmed anarchosynicalist routes, 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.040 forming a federal council that included both workers and intellectuals 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.800 aimant rekondelte union activities. Amidst a wave of reorganization post 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:20.520 World War One, a new surgeon demand for Paraguay and 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:25.000 exports revitalized labor activism. In nineteen sixteen, the Corps or 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.559 Centro Obero Regionale de Paraguay to call the role of 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.920 championing anarchosyndicalism and labor rights. This one gained support from 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:38.200 a wide network, launching influential publications like El Combat and Renovasion. 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:42.000 Other groups like Comedie and the Revolutionary Nationalists Alliance, which 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.240 sought a federalist union Other People's Latin America also took 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.760 part in the resurgions of anarchist ideas. In nineteen twenty two, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.120 the Paraguay and Anarchists were able to finally establish links 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.080 with the International Workers Association. 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:55.480 By the nineteen. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.319 Thirties, Syriaco Puarte emerged as a prominent voice cat and 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:04.000 for Workers Rise. Despite you Know Everything, he was a 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.760 protege of fellow anarchists and printmaker Felix Kantalisio Aracuyu, a 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.840 Paraguay and Mestizo of mixed indigenous and black ancestry. At 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:16.439 one point Arakuyu and his comrades had helped organize a 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:20.360 tram workers strike in Asuncion, which compelled the government to 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.280 round them up and dump them in the middle of 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.400 the jungle in Mato Grosso, hoping that they would die 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.520 and had. Arakuyu and his friends made their way through 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:33.080 over one thousand, three hundred kilometers of mountain jungle, surviving 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.440 on roots, fruits, and game, to make their way back 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.320 to their hometown of Incarnacion and speaking of Incarnacion both 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.680 to our day and Arakuyu took part in the little 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.760 known attempt at an anarchist uprising in Paraguay, which was 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:51.200 actually centered in Incarnacion. On the twentieth of February nineteen 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:54.080 thirty one, a group of one hundred and fifty workers 0:14:54.080 --> 0:14:57.760 and students organized in a couple of popular assemblies, took 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.680 control of the city of Incarnacion with the goal of 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.320 establishing a libertarian commune, part of a plan to spark 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.280 a wider anarchist cynicalist revolution in Paraguay. This was the 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:11.360 culmination of a series of strikes and widespread lya Latin 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.840 by anarchists and students in support of revolution. It wasn't 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.520 meant to be centered in the Karnacion, as there was 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:20.200 a planned construction worker at Donald striking and student Zion, 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:24.560 and similar action in Villarica and Concepcion, but key organizers 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.040 in those struggles in those cities were deported in the 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:31.720 days leading up to the action, so those planned actions 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.360 ended up failing. After sixteen hours when their efforts to 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.280 have reinforced by workers in the rest of the nation, 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.400 the interactionists of Encarnacion took over two steamboats and made 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:44.800 their way along the river to Brazil, but not before 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.280 they attacked the Yuromatic companies and burned the records related 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.720 to indentured laborers in two ports. Their solidarity never died, 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.240 even after they went through everything they went through, they 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:00.240 didn't lose their sight and what really mattered. Sadly, the 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:04.000 seventeen students and workers who remained in Incarnacion were arrested. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:08.560 Duarte found himself jailed and interned and Marcurita Ireland. After 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:13.960 Liberal Party president josse P Gugiari outlawded tree unions, other 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:16.720 revolutionaries were dropped off from the jungle to die at 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.000 a random point along the Parana River. Seven of the 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:22.720 captured seventeen met this fate and the other ten spent 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:35.080 a few months in prison before being deported to Argentina. 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.960 Movement then faced distinct challenges during the Chako War from 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.840 nineteen thirty two to nineteen thirty five between Paraguay and Bolivia, 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.720 which halted much of the anarchist activism. Many anarchists joined 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.280 the war effort reluctantly, including Duarte, who performed duties in 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.240 the Rear Guard were working as a type settle for 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:55.240 various presses, including anarchist pressors the Paraguay and Victory. Following 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:58.080 the war, the return to domestic concerns saw a resurgence 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:02.400 of anarchists and labor activities. The government's crackdown of lefterc 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.720 ideologies in the late nineteen thirties nineteen forties under President 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:10.040 Morignigo's rule led to severe repression of anarchists and cynicalist groups. 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:12.919 Douart has spent some time as a worker representative at 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.639 the National Labor Department or DNT, who was under considerable 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.919 fire from the communists were taken hold of the Treading 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:24.000 movement after anarchism waned in popularity. He finally resigned from 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.240 his post in nineteen forty one after a Worker's Coordinating 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:31.200 committee of seamen, tram workers, bakers, print workers, and other 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.760 trades issued a protest note to President Morinigo, threatening to 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.040 withdraw from the Workers Delegate for the infringements of their 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:42.760 rights of assembly, to unionize and to strike. Of course, 0:17:43.359 --> 0:17:48.359 their protest note was completely ignored. The president's authoritarian tenure 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.720 pushed several anarchists and socialist organizers into exile. Duarte himself 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.120 ended up in exile in Argentina by nineteen forty two, 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.160 but eventually was able to retain and reclaim his appointment 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.280 as a worker representative. Then, not long after, he became 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.760 a victim of a police crackdown during the nineteen forty 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.680 four general strike, after labor movement was hijacked by the 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:11.600 Republican Workers Organization. After nineteen forty seven, Duerte dropped out 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.760 of trade union activity entirely and refocused to publishing articles 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:19.360 and trade union publications abroad and urgent research into Paraguay 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.760 and trade union history. He faced repeated arrests and took 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.960 part in strikes anyway, advocating for workers' rights across various industries. 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:31.280 He continued his activism against fascism and authoritarianism, operating from 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.280 Argentina at times, while still supporting strikes and anarchist literature. 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.960 In Paraguay, the nineteen fifty four ascension to power of 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:44.360 General Alfredo Storoister marked a significant period of intensified authoritarianism. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:50.760 Streuisner's regime violently suppressed opposition, including anarchists, for over three decades, 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:54.560 even in his seventy years. During the nineteen seventy years, 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:58.399 Duarte was harassed by Strausner's secret police. Many other artists 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.960 were imprisoned, exiled, or dissip by Stuisner, who imposed tight 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.119 control of unions and labor organizers. The nineteen fifty four 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.240 to nineteen eighty nine dictatorship of Storisner stifled anarchist activities 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.199 severely and forced them underground, where they would have to 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:16.000 preserve anarchist literature and ideas through secret print publications and 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.879 solidarity movements. The result of this dictatorship was that anarchism 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:25.640 in Paraguay experienced resurgence much later than other Latin American nations, 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.760 with the spark rekindled only in the early two thousands. 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:32.280 This rebooth of anarchist sentiment emerged largely within the punk 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:36.800 counterculture and youth led social movements often interconnected with struggles 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:41.840 for condigious rights, economic justice, and environmental causes. The establishment 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:45.520 of spaces like Laterraza and Anarchist Squad provided platforms for 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:50.000 activists and community engagement, while publications such as Autonomia Zene 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:55.000 and Grito Fanzine disseminated anarchist ideals despite Paraguay's history of 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.920 anarchist repression. These newer movements, however, small, signified some small 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.160 for a renewed interest in the material ideas within Paraguay, 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.320 one that can be seen even more violently in other 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.800 parts of Latin America. Paraguay and anarchists have shown us 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.440 the drive for freedom and equality is a daily equipment 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:17.800 to defy attorney and resist exploitation. That's by facing decades 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.680 of silence and the destroyerst dictatorship. Anarchism did not disappear. 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.720 The seeds of resistance late dormant, but they are ready 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:29.080 to bloom again as new generations can take up the struggle. 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.440 As we conclude, let's remember the words of Raphael Barre, 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:36.560 who fought tirelesslie for the people. He came to call 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:42.040 his own justice, justice above all things, justice, even if 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:45.320 it costs blood or power to old the people. 0:20:45.840 --> 0:21:07.720 This Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's me 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:11.439 James today and I'm joined by Danny. Danny's an engineering 0:21:11.440 --> 0:21:14.240 photographer who lived in North East Syria from twenty eighteen 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.520 until twenty twenty three and a founding member of the Rise, 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.400 which is the Rajarva Information Center if you're not familiar, 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.120 and she worked for self administration and civil engineering while 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:25.000 she was there. Welcome to show Danny. 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:26.440 Hi James, it's really good to be on. 0:21:26.600 --> 0:21:28.679 Yeah, Jas, thanks thanks for coming. I know it's like 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:32.000 a stressful time. So what I thought we would do 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:35.840 is there's been a lot of reporting on Syria that 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:37.920 people have probably seen if they're living in the US 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.040 or the UK. Nearly all of it has either excluded 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.560 or like footnoted what's happening in North and East Syria 0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:48.200 and specifically in the areas that are under a self administration. 0:21:49.040 --> 0:21:51.560 So I was hoping today we could give people a 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.440 little more introduction to what's happening there. There's been a 0:21:53.520 --> 0:21:56.680 lot of like jubilation about what's happening in Syria, and 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:01.000 things have been very far from universally positive. Massive displacement 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.440 of civilians, ethnic cleansing of areas that have been captured 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:08.960 by the Turkish Baksterian National Army and genuine like peril 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.399 for the self administration project, the like of which we 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.280 haven't seen for a long time. So perhaps if listeners 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.840 aren't familiar, would you like give them the real basics 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.800 of the self administration of the AA ANDES and what 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:21.800 it means and what's going on there. 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.360 Yeah, well that's a big question because it's like it's 0:22:26.359 --> 0:22:27.080 a big project. 0:22:27.280 --> 0:22:29.840 It's been going on for quite some time. Yeah, yeah, 0:22:29.920 --> 0:22:30.439 it really has. 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.920 It's kind of been lost in discussions and news about 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.720 the Serian Civil War because it has been such a complex, 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:42.200 multi polar, multi access, multi ethnic conflict, and it's been 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:45.760 going on for what like thirteen fourteen years now, Yeah, 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.679 coming up to fourteen years. The Kurds in the northeast 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.960 had been preparing for some time before the outbreak of 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.960 civil war back in twenty eleven for something like this. 0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.359 Obviously they didn't they didn't know this was going to happen, 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:06.040 but they had been working on revolutionary emancipation for decades, 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:10.240 and in particular since around two thousand, they've been working 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:15.399 on this concept of democratic con federalism, which is moving 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.040 away from a sort of what they call an old 0:23:18.080 --> 0:23:23.000 paradigm of Marxist Leninist thought to this system they've now 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:28.000 quite effectively built up there where democracy is bottom up. 0:23:28.400 --> 0:23:33.080 It's structured around small communes and self organizing units, cooperatives. 0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:36.160 There's a market economy, but it's not a catalyst economy 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:40.680 where there's sort of radical emancipation of oppressed to people's 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.959 particular women who are really centered in the revolutionary process 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.320 and organizing there. And I think because they maybe you 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:49.720 can't call them conflict. 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:51.360 Avoided, that they haven't avoided conflict. 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:56.280 They very famously defeated ISIS amongst other groups in the northeast, 0:23:56.600 --> 0:24:01.720 they fought against Blanders, Refront and various other jihadi groups. 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:06.680 They also didn't enter into serious conflict with either their 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:11.080 FSA as they were, or the regime and the Assad regime, 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:14.600 and so they kind of managed to carve out a 0:24:14.640 --> 0:24:18.119 sort of democratic and semi enclave. I mean people who 0:24:18.160 --> 0:24:21.399 describe it as a state that they quite vehemently say 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:25.159 it's not a state in the northeast of Syria. Whilst 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:29.000 the worst of the fighting was between the Aussid regime 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:31.679 and the FSA and groups that came out of the 0:24:31.760 --> 0:24:35.560 FSA in the west and south of the country. 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.080 Yeah, I think it's very good summary. I think like 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:42.320 it gets missed maybe because of how relatively successful it's 0:24:42.320 --> 0:24:47.000 been compared to other democratization projects within Syria. It gets 0:24:47.119 --> 0:24:50.640 missed that like when people are talking about what will 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:54.719 happen in Syria now bizarrely and I don't quite like 0:24:55.119 --> 0:24:57.400 I don't quite understand how we get here, but people 0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.800 seem to go to like Libya or I understand how 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:03.480 we get here and through process like orientalism and ignorance, 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.760 but we have a functioning democracy. An example of like, 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:11.159 it's not just Kurdish people, right, it's lots of communities 0:25:11.160 --> 0:25:14.400 living together in northern East Syria, and because of democratic 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:17.000 confederalism they're able to coexist and still feel that they 0:25:17.000 --> 0:25:20.119 have enough sovereignty to be safe. 0:25:20.760 --> 0:25:21.240 Is that fair? 0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:22.920 Yeah? Yeah, absolutely. 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.840 And I think something that it's hard to convey or 0:25:26.880 --> 0:25:30.040 fully understand unless you spend a lot of time there 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:33.640 or you're deeply involved with any of these communities. 0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.280 Is quite how hard that was to do. 0:25:35.600 --> 0:25:38.080 Yeah, a lot of different ethnic groups, political groups that 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:42.200 hate each other, you know. Yeah, the Kurds they brought 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:45.919 in lots of different policies, like their right to be 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:49.240 taught in your mother tongue. When they took power twenty 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:52.239 twelve onwards, they were very keen not to just sort 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:55.959 of replace everything with Kurdish, make a Kurdish state, you know, 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:58.800 start being the oppressor and sort of be oppressed. They 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:02.879 made sure that they continue using Arabic as the majority 0:26:02.960 --> 0:26:05.320 language because it is the majority language. That the north 0:26:05.359 --> 0:26:08.119 and east of Syria is still an Arab majority area, 0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.600 and this is despite the fact that they've been pretty 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:14.919 horrendously oppressed by the Arab population through the Bath Party 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:18.960 and its oppressive systems for decades. So it has been 0:26:19.160 --> 0:26:23.200 a pretty hard ongoing process to negotiate and to put 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:26.840 aside pretty serious conflicts between quite. 0:26:26.600 --> 0:26:28.320 A few different groups that exist there. 0:26:28.720 --> 0:26:31.280 Yeah, it won't be any easier of across the whole 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.040 country than it was there, but like, they have a 0:26:34.080 --> 0:26:37.160 system that works, and it's kind of frustrating to see 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:41.040 these discussions of what happens next that just ignore the 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:44.280 fact that there's a functioning multi ethnic democracy right there. 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:47.320 If we do just look at women's liberation, you know, 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:49.360 I've reported from lots of places around the world, lots 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:51.080 of places in that part of the world, and the 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:55.199 difference is profound in like everyday life. It's not just 0:26:55.280 --> 0:26:58.320 a kind of rhetorical commitment, right, Like, at least my 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:01.800 impression as a man is that, like, this is a 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:04.800 revolution by women, not a revolution and it's about women. 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:07.639 It's not a revolution by men that like seeks to 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.679 liberate women, says it's going to liberate women, you know, 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:12.760 with the US in Verde Afghanistan saying it's going to 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:14.480 liberate women, and look what we got, And like the 0:27:14.600 --> 0:27:17.920 difference in just the way people are able to look, 0:27:18.000 --> 0:27:21.480 like every aspect of everyday life is completely different. But 0:27:22.119 --> 0:27:25.119 that's in danger right now. The narrative I guess that 0:27:25.160 --> 0:27:27.240 people will be familiar with from Syria is that the 0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:29.760 state has been defeated, the A Sad regime has been defeated, 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:35.680 and that therefore the revolution has succeeded. But the A 0:27:35.760 --> 0:27:38.560 Sad regime is not the only state in play in Syria, right, So, 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:43.359 can you explain the Turkish antipathy to the project in 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:47.160 northern East Syria and how that's manifesting itself currently. 0:27:47.680 --> 0:27:50.520 Yeah, it's it's pretty hard to discuss any of the 0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:54.120 stuff without talking about Turkey and without understanding where they're 0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:58.080 coming from. Yeah, I think it's it's something that is 0:27:58.560 --> 0:28:02.159 said enough or understood enough that the modern state of 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:06.680 Turkey is an nationalist project. And you know, I don't 0:28:06.760 --> 0:28:08.439 say that as a slur. That's like a basic founding 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:11.840 principle of the state. It's a state founded on genocide 0:28:12.320 --> 0:28:17.119 and the mass four demographic change across the whole country, 0:28:17.560 --> 0:28:21.680 and it's continued that way. There have been reforms, for sure, 0:28:22.560 --> 0:28:27.560 but that's still a founding principle. And even now sort 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:30.560 of speaking a non Turkish language in the Turkish Parliament 0:28:30.680 --> 0:28:34.320 is a pretty serious violation. And the size of Turkey, 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:36.280 the size of its economy, the size of its military, 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:40.320 the regional power stages they have in the Middle East, 0:28:40.560 --> 0:28:42.400 means that they have an enormous gravity. 0:28:42.680 --> 0:28:45.040 They have an enormous amount of power over Syria. 0:28:46.360 --> 0:28:48.840 A lot of the goods and services that Syria relies 0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:53.880 on coming through Turkey or rely on on the Turkish industry, 0:28:54.560 --> 0:28:58.600 and the Turkish military is a huge supporter of their 0:28:58.840 --> 0:29:03.240 groups in the Northwest like Acham and the Syrian National Army, 0:29:03.600 --> 0:29:09.040 and of course the Kurdish question within Turkey is the 0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:13.640 main reason for their antipathy towards the what's been built 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:17.240 up in North Eastyria as much as the self determination 0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:20.920 for oppressed people's minorities is something that's an issue. The 0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:25.520 fact that it's Kurdish led, and in particular it's emancipat 0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:29.960 for Kurdish people threatens this ethno nationalist aspect of their state, 0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:33.680 and they kind of they see it something that needs 0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:37.480 to be nicked in the Bud right, and they've sort 0:29:37.480 --> 0:29:41.760 of done that with Northern Iraq, that the Kurdish region 0:29:41.760 --> 0:29:45.720 of Northern Iraq by essentially vassalizing the KDP, the main 0:29:45.800 --> 0:29:49.080 party there, and they know they can't do the same 0:29:49.120 --> 0:29:53.280 in North Eastyria, and the military option is their best chance, 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:57.600 their best hope of nipping Kurdish emancipation in Kurdish sub 0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:00.640 determination in the Bud and preventing it from sort of 0:30:01.000 --> 0:30:02.400 snowboarding across the region. 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:06.720 Yeah, I think we should probably mention that, Like I guess, 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:08.960 if we talk about like the electoral method or the 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:13.920 electoral path people in Turkish Kurdistan, in Northern Kurdistan, if 0:30:13.920 --> 0:30:16.120 you want to call it, in addition to the armed 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.600 struggle which has been there since nineteen eighty four, they 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:22.320 have also like tried to vote and repeatedly seen their 0:30:22.440 --> 0:30:27.239 votes ignored or changed or their elected officials removed. Like 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:29.040 this is within the last year, I'm not talking about 0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:32.120 back in the eighties and nineties, and like Turkey has 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:36.680 been aggressively attacking any attempts at like self determination within 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:39.800 the country and then as you say, like militarily attacking 0:30:40.440 --> 0:30:44.600 the Kurdish Freedom movement within northern Eassyria. Do you want 0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:48.000 to talk about the Syrian National Army or the Turkish 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.000 back Free Syrian Army, whatever you want to call them, 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:53.200 an explain Like, I think part of what we're dealing 0:30:53.240 --> 0:30:56.200 with is like that Turkey has a very well established 0:30:56.240 --> 0:30:58.960 state media project and they seem to do very well 0:30:59.120 --> 0:31:01.840 and like creating vire all social media content. So people 0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.680 might not be fully familiar with who the SNA are 0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:08.320 and specifically like Turkey's role in creating them. Do you 0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:09.800 want to explain that a bit to people? 0:31:10.360 --> 0:31:12.480 Yeah, I mean this is this is one of the 0:31:12.560 --> 0:31:15.560 reasons why I think it's so hard for people to 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:18.040 report on the Syrian Civil War. It's very hard to 0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:21.440 convey like a simple coherent narrative of one side versus 0:31:21.480 --> 0:31:24.600 the other, you know, like Ukraine versus Russia, the Russian 0:31:24.600 --> 0:31:28.120 world and Ukrainian world, because there are there are so 0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:30.200 many different groups in the SNA is that it's an 0:31:30.200 --> 0:31:33.640 important one and they are their group. Together with this 0:31:33.920 --> 0:31:38.360 concept of the rebels that have liberated Syria, yeah, despite 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.680 the fact that they're not actually part of higher than 0:31:41.840 --> 0:31:45.560 the liberation movement as it calls itself, that that have 0:31:46.080 --> 0:31:50.840 taken over the Syria. Yeah, the Syrian National Army, it's 0:31:50.960 --> 0:31:55.480 it's kind of like a loose collection of various some 0:31:55.520 --> 0:31:59.680 of them called themselves brigades or groups. It's essentially a 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:04.280 millionary proxy force of Turkey. They don't have a coherent 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:10.000 political framework. They're not revolutionary groups. They're not liberatory or 0:32:10.000 --> 0:32:12.240 mantif patrit They wouldn't describe themselves as that in the 0:32:12.240 --> 0:32:16.120 same way that maybe HTS would. I mean, the Kurds 0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:19.640 in North Eastyria describe them as gangs, which kind of 0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:21.440 sounds like a propaganda term, but when you actually look 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:23.480 at what they do, they really are like a sort 0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:27.680 of a criminal enterprise, a criminal gang that's used as 0:32:27.760 --> 0:32:31.600 a convenient proxy for force by Turkey because oltimately Turkey 0:32:31.600 --> 0:32:35.360 has like a massive military Then maybe it is quite 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:39.560 underfunded and not particularly astafter the air force has suffered 0:32:39.600 --> 0:32:43.520 pretty seriously from the fallout of the coup in twenty sixteen, 0:32:43.800 --> 0:32:46.520 but the army is massive, it's relatively well funded, and 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:50.600 their drone program is huge. The thing that they struggle 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:55.480 with is the losses that are incurred against Kurdish groups, 0:32:55.480 --> 0:32:58.640 particularly the PKK, in the mountains between ark and Turkey, 0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:01.520 and they need to they need to control that because 0:33:01.560 --> 0:33:04.760 they realize that they've been fighting military as as you say, 0:33:04.800 --> 0:33:07.960 since the early nineteen eighties, and they can't have a 0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:12.080 Vietnam situation right of a mass movement against their military 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.360 occupation and against their military efforts. And Syria, they can't 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:21.320 afford financially or politically to get into a quadmire there, 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.800 and so by funding this sort of collection of groups 0:33:25.800 --> 0:33:28.320 called the SNA, that's their way of being able to 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:32.040 incurb pretty massive losses without having to report on it, 0:33:32.080 --> 0:33:38.160 without that creating unrest or opposition within the Turkish population 0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:39.400 of Turkey. 0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:41.680 Right, And I think especially when like some of the 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:43.719 things the SNA have done, which we can maybe get 0:33:43.760 --> 0:33:48.360 into in man Bej like, it gives them a deniability 0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:50.880 that wouldn't exist if that was regular soldiers doing that 0:33:51.000 --> 0:33:54.400 like some stuff which is war crimes, is I guess 0:33:54.440 --> 0:33:56.560 a nice way of saying it, like a more sanitized 0:33:56.600 --> 0:33:58.960 way of saying it. But horrific stuff, really terrible stuff. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:01.800 This has been, how think, since at least twenty eighteen. 0:34:02.000 --> 0:34:04.719 But Turkey doesn't have to be held accountable for that because, 0:34:04.840 --> 0:34:07.200 like you said, it's not Turkish, it's not the Turkish army. 0:34:07.880 --> 0:34:11.400 Do you want to explain how the situation in North 0:34:11.440 --> 0:34:15.160 Syria has changed since what was it like two weeks ago? 0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:17.719 A week ago? I guess that they moved south from 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:21.760 Aleppo and start the HTS, largely with some support from SNA, 0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:25.600 moved towards Damascus and then the SNA launched its own 0:34:25.600 --> 0:34:28.439 assault on the Self Administration. Can you explain a little 0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:32.000 bit of what's happened there in terms of displacement and 0:34:32.080 --> 0:34:35.000 in terms of the terrain that's the SNA have captured. 0:34:35.360 --> 0:34:37.560 Yeah, it's been very fast moving now, as you say, 0:34:37.640 --> 0:34:40.320 like it's only been two weeks since the battle for 0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:44.760 Allpos started if you call it a battle. So the FDA, 0:34:45.160 --> 0:34:49.120 so this is like the alliance of military groups that 0:34:49.760 --> 0:34:51.840 falls under the remit of the Self Administration in the 0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.840 northe Eatia. So the YPG and the YPJ are like 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:57.200 the most famous and largest components of this force, but 0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:00.560 there are a whole bunch of arab As, Syrian and 0:35:00.719 --> 0:35:04.920 Armenian units within the SDF. They held this sort of 0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:09.640 salient pushing out into northwest Aria towards Afrin, which was 0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:13.200 captured by the SNA and Turkey in twenty eighteen. That 0:35:13.480 --> 0:35:16.400 was on one side founded by HTS and on the 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:19.000 other by the SNA. When things really kicked off, the 0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:23.279 SNA started a pretty concerned campaign to capture this area 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.640 and own as Shedpa, and because of its position and 0:35:26.680 --> 0:35:31.920 it's relatively difficult terrain and difficult logitical position to resupply, 0:35:32.680 --> 0:35:35.600 they pulled back from that towards Aleppo and man Beach, 0:35:35.840 --> 0:35:39.319 which is the only major city that the SDS still 0:35:39.360 --> 0:35:43.880 held on the west of the Euphrates, and it's the 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:45.560 area closest to Aleppo. 0:35:46.280 --> 0:35:47.880 They got hit pretty hard. 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:50.279 If you follow a live upday map or any of 0:35:50.320 --> 0:35:51.959 these sort of update maps, it looked like that. 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.040 That's pretty quickly. Actually, it ended up being a sort 0:35:55.040 --> 0:35:56.200 of large. 0:35:55.880 --> 0:36:02.280 Gray zone of the gorilla attacks potentially still ongoing. It's 0:36:02.320 --> 0:36:04.120 been really muking Hord to tell what's going on there, 0:36:04.120 --> 0:36:07.680 but essentially there's a large area of uncontrolled but heavily 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:12.359 contested territory between Aleppo and the Euphrates River now and 0:36:12.400 --> 0:36:14.520 which the SDF and the SNA have been fighting over. 0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:16.680 Like one of the curious things for me is that 0:36:16.719 --> 0:36:18.320 the Turkish Air. 0:36:18.160 --> 0:36:20.440 Force and literally did not get involved for a while, 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.320 but after about a week they did, and they started 0:36:23.360 --> 0:36:27.120 hitting man Beach very very heavily. And at that point, 0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:30.839 when the center of man Beach started being contested and 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:33.480 for over, the US stepped in. We don't know the 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:35.319 details are, but there seems to have been some kind 0:36:35.360 --> 0:36:39.680 of negotiation whereby the suggestion is that if the SDF 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:43.640 fighters poured back across the Euphrates, the SDF would assure. 0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:45.360 Their protection from any further assorts. 0:36:45.840 --> 0:36:47.920 We don't know how true that is, and we know 0:36:48.000 --> 0:36:52.839 that today further negotiations on this failed. But it's really 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:56.560 hard to tell right now as we speak what's disinformation 0:36:56.719 --> 0:37:00.239 and what's truth, because stuff's only coming out officially in 0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:01.279 gyms and traps. 0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:04.920 Yeah, and stuff's coming out unofficially often that it's just 0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:10.399 not true, Yeah, every five minutes and getting blasted by 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:13.600 maybe people who just don't understand, or who do understand 0:37:13.600 --> 0:37:16.520 but have a certain agenda to push on social media, 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:19.840 especially but on Telegram too, and it can be really 0:37:19.880 --> 0:37:21.360 confusing and it's really frustrating. 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:21.799 Yeah. 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:24.000 For instance, like just before we came on air, I 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.440 saw a couple of videos being posted by pro Turkish 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:31.680 accounts purportedly showing mass troop concentrations lined up against this 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:35.799 border or waiting to invade, and I realized that they 0:37:35.800 --> 0:37:39.759 were from twenty and nineteen when Sarah Khane and Tellerbayad 0:37:40.160 --> 0:37:43.520 were invaded, and they were just reposting material from then, 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:48.960 you know, as disinformation on these movements and weather and 0:37:49.080 --> 0:37:52.560 tack's going to happen, what the negotiations between the US 0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:53.359 and Turkey. 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:54.239 Turned out to be. 0:37:54.880 --> 0:37:57.200 And the truth is like right now, we don't know 0:37:57.320 --> 0:37:58.279 exactly what's going on. 0:37:58.920 --> 0:38:01.239 Yeah, and like you put, won't and that's probably a 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:04.800 good thing. One other thing is that like the SDF 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:08.839 tends to have much better operational security discipline than the 0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:12.880 SNA does, so you won't see as much of like 0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:17.399 media with an SDF spin or people directly streaming. I mean, 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.359 one thing the SDNA likes to do is a war 0:38:20.400 --> 0:38:23.239 crime and then post it on telegram and so like, 0:38:23.440 --> 0:38:25.360 it can be easy to only see that and be like, 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:27.879 oh god, it's terrible, and it is terrible. Those things 0:38:27.880 --> 0:38:30.520 are horrific. But like, because you're not seeing when the 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:34.319 SDF is making movements or making advances until a bit later, 0:38:34.400 --> 0:38:36.640 until you get something from like an official press channel, 0:38:37.160 --> 0:38:39.200 it can give the impression that the SNA is just 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:41.280 romping around, which is not the case. 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:44.920 Yeah, we saw this a few times when Manboot is 0:38:45.440 --> 0:38:48.520 reported to being captured by the SNA and they posted 0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:51.719 videos for themselves in the middle of the city, and 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:54.160 then an hour later the SDF posted a video from 0:38:54.160 --> 0:38:56.239 the center of the city of twenty or thirty dead 0:38:56.840 --> 0:39:00.040 SNA little about the streets and then flying their own. 0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:03.439 So yeah, yeah, it's really it's really hard to tell. 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:06.560 It's also really hard as like, anyone who cares about 0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:10.240 the region has been there, is reported on it, anyone 0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:14.120 interested in the kind of politics that the Kurds are 0:39:14.120 --> 0:39:16.399 built up in the region, and others, I should say, 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:19.279 it's you know, it's been a multi ethic project if 0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:19.920 you care about that. 0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:20.759 It's really hard not. 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:23.600 To be glued to social media to see what's going on, 0:39:23.680 --> 0:39:26.440 but it can be quite detrimental to morrow. It can 0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:28.880 be quite an active self harm to be like constantly 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:31.480 checking on this because it's so mucky and as you say, 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:35.040 like things can turn around within two hours of info 0:39:35.160 --> 0:39:36.319 or distance for getting out there. 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:39.879 Yeah, and I think it's it's a super important time 0:39:39.920 --> 0:39:44.680 to be looking at trusted sources and be considering if 0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:46.960 you need to be on telegram that much, something I 0:39:47.000 --> 0:40:00.960 have been considering this weekend. So let's talk about like 0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:04.120 right now, certainly the focus is on Kabani, right, but 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:07.600 there's also well there's a lot of the self administration 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:11.239 that could potentially be under threat if Turkey decides to 0:40:11.320 --> 0:40:14.719 go as hard as it can against the self administration 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:18.720 against the existence of I guess any form of democratic 0:40:18.760 --> 0:40:21.560 project in northern Easteria of attempts to kind of bring 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:24.839 the whole thing under one government from Damascus. Can you 0:40:24.920 --> 0:40:28.640 explain like what might happen, what people can do, and 0:40:28.800 --> 0:40:31.200 like we should talk about what's at stake as well, 0:40:31.320 --> 0:40:34.279 especially with the prisoner our whole, which maybe we can 0:40:34.280 --> 0:40:36.560 come to after those two things, because I think that's 0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:38.919 a lot to ask you one question, but maybe people 0:40:38.920 --> 0:40:40.759 aren't familiar with our whole we'll leave that one. But 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.680 can you explain at first, like what could potentially happen 0:40:43.680 --> 0:40:46.279 if Turkey decides to go as hard as it wants 0:40:46.280 --> 0:40:46.600 to you here? 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:48.759 I mean, I think the best way to answer that 0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:51.279 question is to look at what's already happened. So in 0:40:51.320 --> 0:40:56.840 twenty eighteen and nineteen, they already captured three significant cities 0:40:57.120 --> 0:40:59.320 and that were under control of the self administration to 0:40:59.360 --> 0:41:02.360 the first, most famously was Afrin, which was in the 0:41:02.360 --> 0:41:06.560 far northwest of the country, like just north Villeppo, sort 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:08.640 of jutting out into Turkey. 0:41:08.920 --> 0:41:10.919 That was a majority Kurdish city. 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:13.040 I don't know exactly, as it was something like eighty 0:41:13.120 --> 0:41:15.399 or ninety percent, which I think is higher than any 0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:19.520 other city in northern Syria. And it was also like 0:41:20.000 --> 0:41:22.160 it's seen the least fighting of pretty much anywhere in 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:24.520 Syria by that point. So the war had been going 0:41:24.560 --> 0:41:28.560 on for like what seven years, and Afin was pretty 0:41:28.600 --> 0:41:29.320 much untouched. 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:32.600 So it was in a pretty good state. 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:37.160 And Turkey and the SNA invaded just as the war 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:40.600 against ISIS was winding down, and I mean, it's become 0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:41.200 a hell on earth. 0:41:41.280 --> 0:41:44.440 It's been almost completely depopulated I think. 0:41:44.280 --> 0:41:48.279 It's less than ten percent now Kurdish ethnically. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:50.160 It has been ruled by a number of different groups. 0:41:50.160 --> 0:41:52.280 We can say the SNA, but you know, different groups 0:41:52.320 --> 0:41:54.520 within the SNA and have fought over it. At the 0:41:54.920 --> 0:41:57.440 HTS at times have had control over certain parts of 0:41:57.480 --> 0:41:59.839 the area, and there's been a lot in fighting. There's 0:41:59.880 --> 0:42:08.400 been horrendous war crimes, committed, great murder, thousands of disappeared people, 0:42:08.800 --> 0:42:12.120 and as you say, they really like to openly put 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:16.520 videos out of them committing this stuff. I mean, they're 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:20.000 pretty shameless about it. There are some pretty disturbing videos 0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:25.520 that they're mutilating the bodies of fallen YPJ soldiers, of 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:28.760 coming some re executions, of wiping out whole towns. 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:33.160 It's been awful. And the same thing. 0:42:33.080 --> 0:42:36.759 Happened again in twenty nineteen around in October when they 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:40.520 captured as Sarah Khane and Talabiad. And it's worth also 0:42:40.800 --> 0:42:43.320 pointing out that these were not Kurdish majority city surprise, 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:45.440 and so I think that Sarah Karney maybe was about 0:42:45.440 --> 0:42:50.239 fifty percent and Telebayads, which is kind of close to Kurbani, 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:51.240 I'm pretty sure. 0:42:51.200 --> 0:42:52.560 Wasn't Kurdish majority city. 0:42:52.600 --> 0:42:56.560 B was organized under the self administration and it was 0:42:56.640 --> 0:43:00.600 organized quite effectively, and they committed the same horrific times there. 0:43:01.200 --> 0:43:04.279 They are an anti Kurdish for so if you can 0:43:04.320 --> 0:43:07.759 say that they are racist, they do have. 0:43:08.200 --> 0:43:11.480 A stated goal of committing genocide against the Kurts. That's 0:43:11.520 --> 0:43:13.480 not an exaggeration. There's something they openly say. 0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:17.520 But they don't seem to care who they steal from, 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:22.080 or who they rape or who they extort. Wherever they go, 0:43:22.840 --> 0:43:26.759 it's death and destruction. And it still is now, and 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:29.120 there's still something like a quarter of a million internally 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:34.120 displaced people from these areas in North Essyria hoping to 0:43:34.160 --> 0:43:36.600 go back and now having to see the situation get 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:37.799 even worse and not knowing if. 0:43:37.680 --> 0:43:38.600 They ever will be able to. 0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:42.120 Yeah, and I think like you were talking about, like 0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:46.120 we're seeing it right now in man Beach, like the 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:49.040 SNA seems to liesee be in controlled of the city, 0:43:49.480 --> 0:43:53.040 albeit with YPG fighters kind of more and I guess 0:43:53.080 --> 0:43:56.759 in a gorilla role, so it would seem still fighting there. 0:43:56.800 --> 0:43:58.440 But where I believe we're on the second day of 0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:01.719 a general strike in man Beach after less than a 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:04.640 week of the SNA holding it because of looting and 0:44:05.239 --> 0:44:08.400 executions and other war crimes. 0:44:08.920 --> 0:44:11.520 Yeah, I think this is like actually really good political 0:44:11.680 --> 0:44:15.560 education to see what's happening, because what's been built up 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:17.880 in the Northeast has been built up over decades. 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:21.920 Right. They like to use this anology of the myosolium 0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:24.960 and the fruiting bodies of a mushroom. 0:44:25.280 --> 0:44:29.960 They appear to magically emerge from the earth in the 0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:32.480 autumn out of nowhere, but actually, you know, they've been 0:44:32.520 --> 0:44:36.640 brewing underground for years before, and they used this analogy 0:44:36.719 --> 0:44:39.520 because it took decades to put in place these structures. 0:44:39.880 --> 0:44:42.760 That's why they were ready as soon as the regime 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:45.799 the Acid region pulled out and collapsed in the face 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:48.440 of ISIS in the early stages of the war, they 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:51.200 were ready to build up these structures. They already had 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:55.680 self organized militias, they had the economy planned out that 0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:57.719 they set to work immediately. 0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:00.200 And their SNA don't have any of that. They are 0:45:00.000 --> 0:45:01.919 a force of convenience. 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:07.040 They're mostly sort of young men who were in groups 0:45:07.080 --> 0:45:10.680 before that were defeated in Syria like Isis, who are 0:45:10.760 --> 0:45:13.320 simply taking the opportunity to enrich themselves. 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:16.160 And that's also very convenient for Turkey. 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:20.080 Because they do the dirty work against the population of 0:45:20.080 --> 0:45:23.680 North Sypyria. So I think it's worth saying that that 0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:26.560 aspect of it, that preparation, that resilience, is something that 0:45:26.560 --> 0:45:30.920 also works in favor in the event of the worst 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:34.760 case of full invasion of northern Assyria. I do think 0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:38.200 they are significantly better prepared than they were in twenty 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:41.960 eighteen and nineteen. And even if the worst happens, even 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.560 if militarily it's defeated, that's not going to be the 0:45:45.719 --> 0:45:47.759 end of this project, right, It's not going to be 0:45:47.800 --> 0:45:52.120 the end of this emancipation. There's now an entire generation 0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:55.120 of young people in North Eassyria who have grown up 0:45:55.840 --> 0:46:01.560 entirely living amongst a liberated and anti hated region and 0:46:01.600 --> 0:46:05.399 people that's not something you can militarily defeat. So I 0:46:05.480 --> 0:46:08.480 you know, I'm not completely hopeless, and obviously I'll be 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:12.279 like devastated if the worst does happen there, But like, 0:46:12.320 --> 0:46:15.320 I don't think it means the end of this incredible 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:18.440 political And it feels wrong to call it a project 0:46:18.480 --> 0:46:19.000 because it's not. 0:46:19.080 --> 0:46:21.239 It's really is a revolution in. 0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:27.120 Every possible meaning of the word, and it's deeply embedded. 0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:27.359 Now. 0:46:27.800 --> 0:46:30.239 Yeah, and I think everyone I spoke to there, like 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:33.360 there's a deeply held conviction that they're not going back 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:38.759 some people who have seen like first hand the fascist 0:46:38.880 --> 0:46:42.359 violence of ISIS and fascist is the right world. It's 0:46:42.360 --> 0:46:45.600 something maybe worse than fascism, but like certainly that like 0:46:45.880 --> 0:46:48.399 speaking to women in Rashava about how they're not going 0:46:48.440 --> 0:46:51.200 back to the gendered violence of they experience for decades 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:55.040 to include ISIS, but by no means like only from ISIS. 0:46:55.200 --> 0:46:58.960 And I guess that kind of brings us on to 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:01.320 I wanted to talk a little bit about the situation 0:47:01.440 --> 0:47:04.520 in the parts of Syria that are controlled by HTS 0:47:04.560 --> 0:47:07.480 and and in so much as they really are control 0:47:07.600 --> 0:47:11.239 controller perhaps around word like they haven't fully established their 0:47:11.280 --> 0:47:14.319 state project yet, but they're certainly moving towards that they've 0:47:14.360 --> 0:47:16.839 sort of captured the institutions of the state rather than 0:47:16.840 --> 0:47:21.400 destroyed them. You'd spoken about, like there's this very I 0:47:21.400 --> 0:47:23.400 don't I think. I guess maybe i'll use an examples 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:25.359 or I'm phrasing this question in a very meandering way. 0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:28.719 I sort of see ann clip where they're they're like, oh, 0:47:28.760 --> 0:47:30.840 we found a guy who's liberally who's like in this 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:32.960 prison and he was stuck here. And then second part 0:47:32.960 --> 0:47:34.880 of this was not broadcast on CNN, as this person 0:47:34.880 --> 0:47:36.960 turns out to be like an Air Force lieutenant who 0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:40.560 was in fact himself someone who tortured and killed civilians, 0:47:41.320 --> 0:47:45.720 And like, there's this very liberatory, very excited messaging coming 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:49.480 from media in the West. I guess some of which 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:51.760 is good, right, Like, it's good that the Assabe regime 0:47:51.800 --> 0:47:54.640 is good. A sab was fucking terrible and tortured and 0:47:54.719 --> 0:47:57.799 killed hundreds of thousands of his own people. But that 0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:01.800 doesn't mean that things are all perfect in Damascus. So 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:03.279 do you want to talk a little bit about like 0:48:03.840 --> 0:48:06.080 some of the worrying stuff we've see in the last 0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:08.120 few days from those areas. 0:48:08.880 --> 0:48:11.560 Yeah, I mean this is something that I worry isn't 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:12.799 being spoken about enough. 0:48:13.120 --> 0:48:15.560 I don't, as a non Syrian, don't want to say. 0:48:15.400 --> 0:48:18.440 To people, you know, you shouldn't be celebrating your own liberation, 0:48:18.600 --> 0:48:22.160 because people should absolutely should be, and it's their right 0:48:22.200 --> 0:48:26.440 to be. And I'm, like it, extremely happy that this 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:27.799 brutal dictator has gone. 0:48:27.840 --> 0:48:30.480 I mean, it's it's hard to summarize. 0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:34.360 Quite how awful he was, and it's it's deeply refiltrating 0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:36.880 that he's probably not going to see justice. Yeah, But 0:48:36.920 --> 0:48:40.120 it's also really hard to see stuff which is really 0:48:40.200 --> 0:48:44.000 reminiscent of like nineteen seventy nine Tehran, two thousand and 0:48:44.000 --> 0:48:48.000 three Baghdad, of a sort of jubilation, whilst at the 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:50.560 same time there are videos of sort of programs being 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:55.480 carried out against minorities, minorities like the Allies who were 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:58.719 in control, and you don't know if the person being 0:48:58.760 --> 0:49:02.680 executed in the street were as a torture an intelligence 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:03.440 agent and. 0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:04.239 You don't know who they were. 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:06.840 But like this is happening, but you're also seeing like 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:11.800 sallapist groups raising their flag, you know, like hardline is 0:49:11.920 --> 0:49:14.799 mis raising their flag in places like the Takia and 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:19.239 Tattoos that have significant minority populations. I am very I 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:21.800 mean concerned, is in the right word. Like it's hard 0:49:22.280 --> 0:49:25.560 to fill that spirit of liberation when when you see 0:49:25.600 --> 0:49:27.120 not only these things happening, but that. 0:49:27.120 --> 0:49:30.320 The people who have captured these state institutions. 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:34.520 Are admitted former members of al Qaida, and they are 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:39.200 they are Jihad's hard line people that have now got 0:49:39.640 --> 0:49:40.800 a very effectively. 0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:42.560 Made themselves about to be moderate. 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:46.120 But my guart feeling is that we're going to see 0:49:46.120 --> 0:49:49.400 something like Manei sem nine Tehran of a lot of 0:49:49.440 --> 0:49:52.160 talk of reconciliation, a lot of talk of you know, 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:56.239 the concerns of the Kurds or working with the communists, 0:49:56.520 --> 0:49:58.799 but you know, mass executions and. 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:01.000 Oppression is not around the corner. 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:06.000 And I guess when the tubulation dies down, my question 0:50:06.080 --> 0:50:09.680 is what's going to happen when minorities do you demand 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:12.439 their rights or women don't want to write a job 0:50:12.520 --> 0:50:16.839 in you know, inside the building's inst state institutions. And 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:19.800 I'm finding it very hard to believe that these these 0:50:19.840 --> 0:50:24.880 men who are professed Islimists are going to allow a 0:50:24.960 --> 0:50:26.280 moderate future to exist. 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:29.080 Yeah, it's I don't know. 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:32.239 Every day we get different information, right, but like, yeah, 0:50:32.280 --> 0:50:34.799 I don't know if concerned it's the right word either, 0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:36.000 I don't quite know what the word is. 0:50:36.040 --> 0:50:37.920 But like I'm worried. 0:50:38.000 --> 0:50:41.640 I guess I'm worried that I'm especially worried when like, 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:46.319 rather than what we saw in the self administration was 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:49.400 not like a continuation of institutions right when the Assad 0:50:49.480 --> 0:50:53.000 regime left in twenty eleven, in twenty twelve, and areas 0:50:53.040 --> 0:50:56.040 that the regime or isis have left since then, like 0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:58.320 it wasn't like, Okay, we'll take over these institutions and 0:50:58.440 --> 0:51:01.680 minister them differently as we will build democracy from the 0:51:01.680 --> 0:51:04.719 bottom up, not we'll just you know, change to people 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.520 in charge versus what it seems like we're now seeing 0:51:07.520 --> 0:51:10.080 for Damascus is like, hey, can the police from the 0:51:10.200 --> 0:51:24.520 cyber regime police stay at work? Which is concerning Talking 0:51:24.560 --> 0:51:27.120 of police, the last thing I wanted to address was 0:51:27.160 --> 0:51:29.440 that our whole camp. I've spoken about it before on 0:51:29.480 --> 0:51:31.440 the show, and people can look back on other episodes, 0:51:31.480 --> 0:51:33.560 but if you've not heard about it, can you explain 0:51:33.600 --> 0:51:37.120 briefly what our whole is and then the massive risk 0:51:37.520 --> 0:51:41.319 that this Turkish backed invasion poses to our whole and 0:51:41.400 --> 0:51:43.160 other camps. I guess the whole is not the only camp, 0:51:43.239 --> 0:51:43.920 just the biggest one. 0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:48.000 Yeah, our whole is a really important point to talk about. 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:51.840 Our whole is a very large camp. 0:51:52.480 --> 0:51:54.400 It's hard to sum up what kind of camp it 0:51:54.480 --> 0:51:58.840 is because it's so fast and had different sections. 0:51:59.040 --> 0:52:00.560 It's near Alhasse, which is. 0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.160 One of the largest cities in north east Syria, and 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:10.960 it mostly it mostly contains families who were members or 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:14.560 were resident in the Islamic State when it collapsed, So 0:52:14.880 --> 0:52:18.360 in the beginning of twenty nineteen, ISIS was sort of 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:21.880 squeezed into this little corner in the eastern side of 0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:26.000 Syria between the Euphrates and the Iraqi border, and when 0:52:26.040 --> 0:52:29.400 the state collapsed, for the caliphate collapse, a lot of 0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:31.600 people had nowhere to go, and a lot of them 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:33.440 were foreignly sucomming from abroad. 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:34.920 I want to say a lot. I mean like tens 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:35.759 of thousands. 0:52:36.880 --> 0:52:41.040 There were something like twenty thousand families left within SUSA 0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:43.760 and that was like the last parts of the Califate 0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:45.759 to hold out, and they didn't have anywhere to go. 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:51.000 There were already camps set up for IDPs for members 0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:55.279 of ISIS and families in North Assyria, but alcohol was 0:52:55.400 --> 0:52:57.680 rapidly expanded to take these on. So it's a sort 0:52:57.680 --> 0:53:01.759 of semi prison, semi open. The camp that I think 0:53:01.920 --> 0:53:02.440 peaked at. 0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:05.400 Seventy five thousand people, which. 0:53:05.400 --> 0:53:06.719 It sounds like a lot on its own, but when 0:53:06.719 --> 0:53:10.200 you consider that a large city in northern Eassyria is 0:53:10.280 --> 0:53:12.879 about one hundred and fifty thousand people, it. 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:13.880 Still is significant. 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:16.799 I don't you probably have work of recent figause I mean, 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.000 but I think the current population is about forty thousand. 0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:21.880 Yeah, it shrunk definitely. I'm not sure what it is exactly. 0:53:22.600 --> 0:53:26.320 The big problem that the self administration have had is multitude. 0:53:26.360 --> 0:53:28.200 Really many of the people there are foreigners. Many of 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:32.000 them don't have papers. Many of them come from countries 0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:36.240 that either don't want them back or will almost certainly 0:53:36.280 --> 0:53:39.319 execute them if they're sent back like a rock, which 0:53:39.360 --> 0:53:42.520 is against the policy of the abolition of death penalty. 0:53:42.520 --> 0:53:45.200 Inn Asyria. 0:53:45.280 --> 0:53:48.759 There are some in Alohol, but mostly other camps in 0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:52.120 the North and East a Syria. Former ISIS members like 0:53:52.160 --> 0:53:54.719 Shamama Begum who come from countries like the UK who 0:53:54.880 --> 0:53:57.279 simply won't take them back, and the UK has taken 0:53:57.360 --> 0:54:00.399 back some families that simply refuses to take back their 0:54:00.400 --> 0:54:03.919 citizens who joined ISIS as you know, card carrying members. 0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:07.880 So they've made a pretty massive effort to repatriate as 0:54:07.920 --> 0:54:11.080 many families as possible. They've made a big effort to 0:54:11.120 --> 0:54:15.680 rehabilitate and deradicalize as many people as possible. They have 0:54:15.800 --> 0:54:19.440 shrunk the camp massively, but they're still yeah, forty thousand 0:54:19.520 --> 0:54:22.600 or something left there and thinse of a like really 0:54:23.080 --> 0:54:25.759 a lot of them are really radical, Like I think 0:54:25.960 --> 0:54:27.720 I don't know what an exact number is but something 0:54:27.840 --> 0:54:29.640 in the order of ten thousand. Them are still like 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.399 professed being members of ices, and they have a lot 0:54:32.400 --> 0:54:34.600 of children. And this was something that shocked me when 0:54:34.640 --> 0:54:39.080 I was at the end of the caliphate and backwards 0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:42.200 and witnessed tens of thousands of people coming out, and 0:54:42.280 --> 0:54:45.600 I could not have imagined how many children that were. 0:54:46.120 --> 0:54:49.000 And this was like what five years ago now coming 0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:49.919 up to six years ago. 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:52.719 So some of them who were you know, seven, eight, 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.520 nine years old are now like heading towards their mid teens. 0:54:55.600 --> 0:54:59.680 They've spent their entire lives being radicalized and like what 0:54:59.719 --> 0:55:00.319 do you do with them? 0:55:00.480 --> 0:55:00.600 Right? 0:55:00.680 --> 0:55:02.719 And it's no I think there's no coincidence that in 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:06.400 previous Turkish attacks. The Turkey's been attacking the northeast Assyria 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:08.960 for you know, the last five six years now through 0:55:08.960 --> 0:55:11.560 the air, through national warfare, and a lot of their 0:55:11.560 --> 0:55:13.680 attacks have focused on trying to break these people out. 0:55:13.840 --> 0:55:18.480 They have bombed the entrances to prisons multiple times. They 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:22.319 provided funding and arms and ammunition to groups that are 0:55:22.320 --> 0:55:24.520 trying to break them out, and they provide a safe 0:55:24.520 --> 0:55:27.800 passage back to Turkey for those who have managed to escape. 0:55:28.080 --> 0:55:30.399 So it's massively in their favor, But of course it's 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:33.279 a Pandora's box because you know, if that does break open, 0:55:33.320 --> 0:55:36.279 and if these people aren't youpatriated or aren't you radicalized, 0:55:36.840 --> 0:55:39.719 then that's a lot of people who have pretty much 0:55:39.920 --> 0:55:46.160 only known their whole lives a extremely radical fascist Islamist ideology. 0:55:46.440 --> 0:55:49.279 And I don't think they're just going to give it up. Yeah, No, 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:51.520 that they're not going to join this moderate future Syria. 0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:55.400 No, And like those people have probably experienced, like probably 0:55:55.400 --> 0:55:58.560 have terrible experiences within that camp, and that's not going 0:55:58.600 --> 0:56:01.200 to make that that don't tend to be moderating and 0:56:01.280 --> 0:56:04.800 sort of pacifying experiences, And I'm sure that they will. 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:07.440 There'll be a lot of hate coming from there when 0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:10.200 those people come out. And I don't want to lick 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:13.200 a portion blame too much, but we've had a long 0:56:13.239 --> 0:56:14.799 time to deal with this. The world has had a 0:56:14.800 --> 0:56:15.960 long time to deal with I mean, I. 0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:22.160 Would happily blame this is entirely on the hands of 0:56:22.200 --> 0:56:26.359 the coalition. Northern Assyria is a very poor places. It's 0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:29.719 deeply impoverished, and it's been kept in poverished by by 0:56:29.800 --> 0:56:34.960 sanctions by Turkey. You know, the oil refinees that the industry, 0:56:35.239 --> 0:56:37.680 the economy has been smashed to pieces that they've held 0:56:37.719 --> 0:56:39.799 on really well, and that like all credit to them, 0:56:40.239 --> 0:56:44.719 they have maintained this camp. They have tried to give 0:56:44.760 --> 0:56:49.080 these people alive, but it's it's pretty awful conditions. Yeah, 0:56:49.120 --> 0:56:52.160 and this could have been sold if the international community, 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:57.560 if the coalition, the United States had helped with these repatriations, 0:56:57.600 --> 0:57:00.640 so put political pressure on European country some particular to 0:57:00.680 --> 0:57:04.320 take back their citizens and had just provided the funding, 0:57:04.520 --> 0:57:08.120 you know, for they have provided funding. I'm not saying 0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:10.560 they haven't pay much, but like it's a drop in 0:57:10.600 --> 0:57:13.680 the ocean compared to the Department Defense budget. You know, 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:16.040 we're talking a few tens of millions here and there 0:57:16.280 --> 0:57:20.800 as opposed to a concerted effort to deradicalize and repatriate 0:57:21.080 --> 0:57:24.520 people that could pose a serious threat to Europe and 0:57:24.560 --> 0:57:25.040 the US. 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:28.680 Yeah, and like you've got Britain doing the opposite of 0:57:28.680 --> 0:57:31.880 what's helpful, which is fucking like removing people's passports, right 0:57:32.280 --> 0:57:35.720 like the naturalizing them, leaving these people stateless, and like 0:57:35.800 --> 0:57:38.040 saying it's not a problem, which is pathetic and. 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:40.160 I'm very incredibly short sighted. 0:57:40.400 --> 0:57:42.480 Yeah, you know, I don't like using the word terror 0:57:42.560 --> 0:57:45.080 or terrorism, because I think it's they've become meaningless terms. 0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:50.080 But like ISIS did commit horrendous acts of terror in 0:57:50.160 --> 0:57:53.320 Europe and the United States, and these people, a lot 0:57:53.400 --> 0:57:56.520 of them, I'm sure would happily do so given the opportunity. 0:57:56.920 --> 0:58:00.560 So I don't think that the threat is is like 0:58:00.640 --> 0:58:02.200 sufficiently understood in the West. 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.040 Yeah, No, And like it's going to end up biting 0:58:05.040 --> 0:58:07.080 them in the ass because they've you know, they've put 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:10.160 this off and put this off, and wouldn't spend the 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:14.240 money to like have justice related to go through a 0:58:14.280 --> 0:58:17.160 system and to have a chance to plead their cases 0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:20.000 or have a tribune or whatever it is. Instead, these 0:58:20.000 --> 0:58:23.960 people have just been essentially abandoned by most of the world. 0:58:24.280 --> 0:58:27.040 The self administration has been forced to take care of 0:58:27.080 --> 0:58:32.040 the people who did horrific things right there. And Yeah, 0:58:32.280 --> 0:58:36.360 at some point, this population will continue to grow if 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:39.000 we don't keep removing people from it, and that's going 0:58:39.000 --> 0:58:41.200 to be a problem for the whole world, even if 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:43.560 the whole world wants to pretend it's not happening right now. 0:58:43.600 --> 0:58:47.320 And it is just endlessly frustrating to see it not 0:58:47.440 --> 0:58:50.920 even be covered, let alone kind of addressed in the West. 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:54.160 Yeah, I think that's a really important point. When similar 0:58:54.680 --> 0:59:00.000 atrustees have been carried out in Europe. We see international tribune, 0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:03.360 we see the ICC and the ICJ step in, We 0:59:03.400 --> 0:59:07.080 see arrests, we see prosecutions, you know, like Molossovich, like 0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:11.280 the newer Bent trials and Isis was was a massive state. 0:59:11.480 --> 0:59:16.720 It had something like ten million inhabitants. It committed multiple genocides, 0:59:16.960 --> 0:59:18.480 you know, and this is just you know, people in 0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:20.840 the regions saying, oh, they're committing just these are like 0:59:21.160 --> 0:59:25.800 Western highly studied, highly understood, accepted by Western states as 0:59:25.840 --> 0:59:27.840 genocide against like the Uzds. 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:30.160 They committed horrendous atrocities. 0:59:30.160 --> 0:59:32.800 They are they posed an international threat and a massive 0:59:32.840 --> 0:59:35.880 regional threat and at the end of the caliphe as 0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:41.280 a territorial realm, as a serious military presence. It just, yeah, 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:43.360 it just disappeared off the radar. And I think this 0:59:43.440 --> 0:59:46.480 is like a you know, a really issue really shows 0:59:46.520 --> 0:59:49.080 the sort of racist and clonal mindset behind this rules 0:59:49.120 --> 0:59:52.160 based international order that the people who were their victims 0:59:52.240 --> 0:59:54.200 and who have left to pick up the pieces after 0:59:54.200 --> 0:59:58.480 it's got very little support or recognition. And they've been 0:59:58.520 --> 1:00:00.480 calling for for tribunals. 1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:02.360 For years and it's just fallen on to ears. 1:00:02.760 --> 1:00:06.720 Yeah, and sadly ilgy that changing given the incoming administration 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:10.480 in the United States. Like it's it's deeply concerning. I 1:00:10.600 --> 1:00:13.040 deeply concerned. Through own word, it's just fucked. I want 1:00:13.040 --> 1:00:16.160 to ask, like, people I think want to be in 1:00:16.200 --> 1:00:19.880 solidarity with the revolution, They want to help if they can, 1:00:20.080 --> 1:00:23.480 they want to support. I did the fundraiser last night. 1:00:23.720 --> 1:00:26.720 Thank you to everyone who gave their money and came. 1:00:26.800 --> 1:00:29.880 That was really nice. But what can people do to 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:32.560 you know, it's one thing to like be in solidarity 1:00:32.640 --> 1:00:34.840 or post or whatever, but like, what concrete actions can 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:36.040 they take to help. 1:00:36.520 --> 1:00:38.240 This is This is a question that I gets asked 1:00:38.240 --> 1:00:43.400 a lot. Yeah, I think and doing anything is helpful. Yeah, 1:00:43.520 --> 1:00:47.000 it's also a question that's really hard to answer given 1:00:47.040 --> 1:00:50.320 how things are just across the border in Palestine. You know, 1:00:51.120 --> 1:00:54.200 I personally find it hard to to engage and ask 1:00:54.240 --> 1:00:56.760 for help and ask for solidarity when you know there's 1:00:56.760 --> 1:00:59.520 a there's a genocide being committed next door. But we 1:00:59.600 --> 1:01:02.560 might be about to see the same thing happen in Syria, 1:01:03.120 --> 1:01:05.520 and I do think we should be taking it seriously. 1:01:05.640 --> 1:01:09.840 And yeah, anything from raising awareness to actually going there 1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:14.200 and lending support anything on that spectrum. It's not just like, 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:17.439 it's not just the material contribution that you can make. 1:01:17.520 --> 1:01:23.040 It's the people that do really feel left doubt, they 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:28.000 feel betrayed, they feel let down by the international community, 1:01:28.200 --> 1:01:31.200 by the rest of the world, and any act of 1:01:31.240 --> 1:01:33.960 solidarity goes out incredibly well. Like the first year I 1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:36.680 was there, I was basically useless because I didn't speak 1:01:36.680 --> 1:01:38.600 the language, I didn't know my way around. I was 1:01:38.640 --> 1:01:41.280 like a burden on society more or less. And for 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:44.919 people just like happy that you're there, you know, showing solidarity, 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:48.440 And it's not about being useful, it's about that act. 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:50.720 It's about more than that. That's what I'm trying to say. 1:01:50.920 --> 1:01:53.680 And if you can show solidarity in any way you can, like, 1:01:53.920 --> 1:01:57.280 this is incredibly incredibly important to time to do it. 1:01:57.760 --> 1:01:59.680 Yeah, I think, like I don't know, if I go 1:01:59.760 --> 1:02:02.320 back when I moved to the US, which was two 1:02:02.400 --> 1:02:06.720 thousand and eight, George W. Bush as president, and like 1:02:06.720 --> 1:02:08.480 I have my little free Palestine badge when I got 1:02:08.520 --> 1:02:10.840 off the plane in my little kafir and like was 1:02:10.920 --> 1:02:14.960 immediately sent to secondary inspection by the customs people because 1:02:15.440 --> 1:02:18.960 like that was not really of course, there were Palestinian 1:02:18.960 --> 1:02:21.040 people and people in solidarity with the people of Palestine 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:22.520 and the US in and they were for a long 1:02:22.520 --> 1:02:24.760 time before. But like I would never have imagined that 1:02:24.920 --> 1:02:27.800 I would see thousands of people in the streets for 1:02:27.880 --> 1:02:31.800 the Palestinian cause, and like that the only thing that 1:02:31.840 --> 1:02:34.920 has materially held back the genocide of the Palestinian people 1:02:34.960 --> 1:02:38.680 has been the solidarity that they've experienced, And like that 1:02:38.840 --> 1:02:42.120 shows the power that people have, though obviously it's been 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:44.800 able to do comparatively little in Israel, still seems to 1:02:44.840 --> 1:02:48.240 be killing their children every day, but like it shows 1:02:48.240 --> 1:02:51.280 that we can build solidarity really quickly and really meaningfully, 1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:54.360 and like you don't have to go, but you can go. 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:56.640 You get It's much harder to get to Palestine than 1:02:56.680 --> 1:03:01.160 it is to get to northern Essyria last year. And 1:03:01.680 --> 1:03:05.640 I think people who are already organizing can bring that 1:03:05.720 --> 1:03:07.960 into their organizing too. These things don't have to compete 1:03:08.040 --> 1:03:10.480 like they can be. There's a lot of solidarity to 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:13.760 go around. But I would say a lot of the 1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:18.400 news we see, unfortunately from Turkey, and that will unfortunately 1:03:18.640 --> 1:03:21.000 give you information of the extremely biased when it comes 1:03:21.040 --> 1:03:24.400 to Naughti Syria. So being conscious of your media consumption 1:03:24.520 --> 1:03:25.200 is very important. 1:03:25.480 --> 1:03:26.240 Yeah, absolutely. 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:28.320 I think I would just add that to say that 1:03:28.800 --> 1:03:33.160 solidarity with any group is a long term project, right, 1:03:34.080 --> 1:03:36.280 You're not going to jump in and be able to 1:03:36.320 --> 1:03:38.960 make a huge difference immediately. But also at the same time, 1:03:39.040 --> 1:03:42.920 like if the worst happens, if Turkey invades Vullon and 1:03:42.960 --> 1:03:43.760 as genocide and. 1:03:43.720 --> 1:03:46.240 Northern Syria, that isn't the end of it. 1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:51.240 It's a massive international movement and there are practices from 1:03:51.280 --> 1:03:53.560 it that are being put in place in things that 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:55.480 actually don't even have anything to do with the curves 1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:58.320 of the nation. And there are always organizing, there are 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:03.280 matters that they use, there's personality analysis, there's criticism and 1:04:03.280 --> 1:04:04.280 self criticism that. 1:04:04.360 --> 1:04:06.760 There's a lot of that that goes far. 1:04:06.600 --> 1:04:10.000 Beyond a single geographic region, and I think engaging with 1:04:10.080 --> 1:04:12.480 that can and I've seen with my own I since 1:04:12.480 --> 1:04:14.560 I've been back, like there's a lot of groups around 1:04:14.600 --> 1:04:20.160 the UK that use techniques for self organization within land 1:04:20.240 --> 1:04:26.240 rights movement, within worker struggle, within ant Cutts campaigning, and 1:04:26.280 --> 1:04:29.520 these got nothing to do with ra Java, but they 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:33.920 have seen that through solidarity with Rajava and Kurdistan that 1:04:34.000 --> 1:04:36.720 there are ways that can improve their own practice and 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:37.760 their own actions. 1:04:38.040 --> 1:04:38.240 Yeah. 1:04:38.320 --> 1:04:40.680 I think that's really important too, and those are things 1:04:40.680 --> 1:04:42.800 maybe we'll cover in the future. And there are plenty 1:04:42.800 --> 1:04:46.440 of good resources online. Are there any resources you'd like 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:49.000 to plug or like personal social media's things? Do you 1:04:49.000 --> 1:04:52.160 think people could follow to get good information on what's happening? 1:04:52.960 --> 1:04:56.120 Definitely the ri C, that's the Rajavia Information Center. 1:04:56.480 --> 1:04:59.960 They are probably the best source on the ground in Rajava, 1:05:00.360 --> 1:05:05.160 and they are a collective of journalists, a mixture of 1:05:05.200 --> 1:05:08.680 locals and internationalists who've been working there for six years now, 1:05:08.920 --> 1:05:11.640 so they're a rejer But I see on various social 1:05:11.640 --> 1:05:16.360 media platforms you can follow me as at lapinesque la 1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:19.760 p I n E, s q u E. I'm also 1:05:19.840 --> 1:05:23.040 posting about it, although I'm not there anymore. I'm pisiting 1:05:23.080 --> 1:05:27.000 updates from friends, people I know there and my take 1:05:27.040 --> 1:05:30.640 on the situation based on my experiences being there from 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:31.560 its five years. 1:05:31.800 --> 1:05:34.880 Yeah, I think good to follow if you ken. Thank 1:05:34.880 --> 1:05:36.919 you very much, Danny. What we're going to do now 1:05:37.160 --> 1:05:39.240 is I got some voice notes from some friends who 1:05:39.320 --> 1:05:41.880 are at the front with a techosina an assist which 1:05:42.000 --> 1:05:45.480 means anarchist struggle in Kurdish. They're a group within the 1:05:46.120 --> 1:05:50.840 SDF that is an anarchist group that they're fighting, and 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.320 in this case as to doing frontline medical support on 1:05:53.400 --> 1:05:56.280 behalf of the self administration, on behalf of the revolution. 1:05:56.880 --> 1:06:00.160 They sent me some notes this morning it's Monday today 1:06:00.440 --> 1:06:03.560 from their positions on the front line. So obviously those 1:06:03.600 --> 1:06:05.480 notes will be a little bit they'll be like twenty 1:06:05.520 --> 1:06:07.840 four hours old by the time you hear them. But 1:06:07.880 --> 1:06:09.720 I still think it's very important to hear from people 1:06:09.760 --> 1:06:12.640 who are there what we can not from, like someone 1:06:12.640 --> 1:06:14.400 who's supposed to be an expert but hasn't set for 1:06:14.680 --> 1:06:17.440 in Syria in fifteen years and hasn't really talked to 1:06:17.440 --> 1:06:20.320 anyone who's Syrian either. So we'll drop those in after 1:06:20.360 --> 1:06:23.360 the advertising break here and with that I will say 1:06:23.400 --> 1:06:25.760 thank you very much, Danny, thanks for giving us your time, 1:06:25.800 --> 1:06:27.800 and he'll we really appreciate all you're insight today. 1:06:27.840 --> 1:06:28.360 Thanks very much. 1:06:28.440 --> 1:06:41.360 James, talking from the provisional branch. 1:06:42.840 --> 1:06:50.320 Just want to situation here because. 1:06:50.160 --> 1:06:53.840 You're probably now the regime has fun. 1:06:55.640 --> 1:07:02.360 You've left the country after a big offensive that started 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:07.960 from Italy that took over quite soon quite fast the 1:07:08.000 --> 1:07:13.040 city of Alba and continued moving on. We wanted to 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:16.000 explain how is the situation right now on the ground 1:07:16.280 --> 1:07:18.760 and also be some insight in the situation of North 1:07:18.800 --> 1:07:22.600 in Syria and what the media is as not covering. 1:07:22.240 --> 1:07:27.000 Of the different events and situations that are unknowing here. 1:07:27.600 --> 1:07:31.120 The main thing to remark that this can be a 1:07:31.200 --> 1:07:35.040 bit of a confusion confusion interview for those that are 1:07:35.040 --> 1:07:38.040 maybe not familiar with the unknowing situation. 1:07:38.880 --> 1:07:42.040 To give a short context, we can mention. 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:48.880 That there are right now two main conflicts ongoing military conflicts. 1:07:49.280 --> 1:07:52.680 One is when we reported they're not so much we 1:07:52.760 --> 1:07:57.320 are talking about the war that HDS or the offensive 1:07:57.400 --> 1:08:00.840 that HDS launched against the army. 1:08:01.200 --> 1:08:02.480 And the other is. 1:08:02.440 --> 1:08:09.600 The offensive that the SMA and Turkish proxy forces the 1:08:09.600 --> 1:08:12.840 Wilder the name of that Syrian National Army, but that 1:08:12.920 --> 1:08:16.880 they are trained, paid and supported by the Turkish estate, 1:08:17.960 --> 1:08:21.320 the offensive that they have been launching against Northern Asyria 1:08:21.800 --> 1:08:27.000 and the Democratic Administration of North as Ayria is the 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:31.880 area also known sometimes as Rigela, that is started as 1:08:32.640 --> 1:08:37.040 the court desieration movement leaving the world of Islamic state 1:08:37.160 --> 1:08:42.360 and establishing this autonomous administration. So let's go shortly to 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:47.439 the which conflict this offensive of each theater the faith 1:08:47.479 --> 1:08:53.600 of reaction, but it's Islamige group direct heritage of Anatra 1:08:54.200 --> 1:08:57.559 that was the Syrian branch of the GUIDO that has 1:08:57.600 --> 1:09:02.439 been learning having somewhat government destructs in the region of 1:09:02.560 --> 1:09:06.719 Uglype in the north west of Syria and was under 1:09:06.840 --> 1:09:11.280 heavisage from the region forces in Syria Army and the 1:09:11.360 --> 1:09:14.439 twenty seven of Nananda bay unch is bit offensive that 1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:17.200 led to the collapse of the region. 1:09:17.960 --> 1:09:20.400 We could reflect deeply about the regions now. 1:09:21.080 --> 1:09:24.439 On one side, the Syria Aparty was exhausted that two 1:09:24.520 --> 1:09:25.880 years of war here in. 1:09:25.880 --> 1:09:31.040 Syria, but especially their main allies and supporters were also 1:09:31.080 --> 1:09:35.559 in that situation. We were talking mostly about Russia and Iran. 1:09:36.160 --> 1:09:38.600 As we currently know, Russia has been in rage in 1:09:38.640 --> 1:09:41.040 a we're in Ukraine for three years. 1:09:40.800 --> 1:09:48.519 Almost Iran recently had been also engaged in supporting the 1:09:48.560 --> 1:09:54.719 militias in the NFL against Israel after the natural occupation 1:09:54.920 --> 1:09:57.440 that Israel started. 1:09:57.040 --> 1:09:58.559 On an Aza year ago. 1:10:00.520 --> 1:10:04.160 These two conflicts create a situation that both. 1:10:04.000 --> 1:10:08.400 Partners, that Russian and Iran were not able to support 1:10:08.560 --> 1:10:14.080 the army as day within the past and this led. 1:10:13.920 --> 1:10:17.000 Also to the collapse of the front lands of the 1:10:17.040 --> 1:10:23.040 Serra party, allowing the offensive of HDS to overrun very 1:10:23.080 --> 1:10:27.040 fast the defenses in the city of Alipo and also 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:31.520 take in control of the city of Hamma. These sparked 1:10:31.800 --> 1:10:35.600 also all their groups that also opposed the region for 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:39.680 a long time to start also the election, and in 1:10:39.800 --> 1:10:45.640 southern Syria and the regions of the Sula and and Cunetia, 1:10:46.800 --> 1:10:52.080 there was also an autonomous military operation room that started 1:10:52.240 --> 1:10:54.439 coordinated insurgeons and the vision. 1:10:54.960 --> 1:10:57.679 These sparked the collapse of the region. 1:10:58.080 --> 1:11:01.320 A lot of soldiers were defecting their posessions and finally 1:11:02.120 --> 1:11:06.200 the different military groups living the offensive. 1:11:06.280 --> 1:11:07.320 To the mass Puts. 1:11:07.680 --> 1:11:13.880 This was an offensive that was really not very builded 1:11:14.160 --> 1:11:17.000 in the sense of a lot of the similar party 1:11:17.000 --> 1:11:20.599 soldiers who were just leaving their positions and running away, 1:11:21.479 --> 1:11:25.759 and offensive was able to advance very fast, very easily. 1:11:26.880 --> 1:11:32.520 Right now. The offensive led to. 1:11:31.720 --> 1:11:34.800 The transition that we are seeing in the masques where 1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:37.200 the leader of HDS. 1:11:37.439 --> 1:11:41.719 Had been doing really. 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:45.559 Public speeches and the carrying the tunun for the revolution, 1:11:46.479 --> 1:11:48.600 trying to harvest. 1:11:49.800 --> 1:11:55.440 And the revolutionary spirit of like twenty eleven for their. 1:11:54.600 --> 1:12:02.719 Own benefit and they imposed or as a transitional government 1:12:03.160 --> 1:12:07.360 that is from exclusively by like members connected to aligned 1:12:07.439 --> 1:12:11.959 to HDS. Could be good to discuss more about HDS, 1:12:11.960 --> 1:12:13.200 but maybe it's not the. 1:12:13.160 --> 1:12:14.840 Focus of our interview right now. 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:20.479 Just mentioned and their authoritarian government in Egypt has been 1:12:20.840 --> 1:12:26.160 also really criticized by local population organizing. 1:12:25.720 --> 1:12:28.599 Protest against it and right. 1:12:28.400 --> 1:12:34.280 Now running this interim government, they are already making proposals 1:12:34.640 --> 1:12:39.280 for like a morality police. 1:12:38.200 --> 1:12:39.200 Is amic courts. 1:12:39.760 --> 1:12:44.680 So I don't know how much this comparison has been 1:12:44.680 --> 1:12:48.080 already shared. That clearly what we saw in a Findistan 1:12:48.200 --> 1:12:52.240 with Taliban taking over invested destructors is probably a good 1:12:52.280 --> 1:12:56.679 guide to understand what could be happening in Syria. If 1:12:57.000 --> 1:13:00.760 HDRS states control of the the state, it seems to 1:13:00.800 --> 1:13:04.280 be happening. So this is one of the confusion going 1:13:04.360 --> 1:13:05.599 that is widely reported. 1:13:06.160 --> 1:13:08.439 The only one maybe is not so much reported. 1:13:08.960 --> 1:13:13.080 We see how the Turkish has been for a long 1:13:13.120 --> 1:13:14.880 time to give the state has been for a long 1:13:14.920 --> 1:13:19.920 time and attacking the vision of that Norway Syria, especially 1:13:20.120 --> 1:13:24.040 the Cooldish areas, and this is connected not to their 1:13:24.120 --> 1:13:27.760 war against the con deliberation movement that has been in 1:13:27.840 --> 1:13:31.160 for more than forty years and the last chapter of 1:13:31.160 --> 1:13:36.479 Thesus started in coordination with this offensive of HDS where 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:42.320 their prop re forces started to attack many the region 1:13:42.360 --> 1:13:46.519 of thirty fact that was an area where a lot 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:51.160 of the refugees from a friend we're living a frine 1:13:51.280 --> 1:13:53.679 was a region that was a ray occupied by thirty 1:13:53.960 --> 1:13:57.120 in twenty eighteen and a lot of the people from 1:13:57.160 --> 1:14:00.720 the city was displaced and living in refuge amants in 1:14:00.920 --> 1:14:05.240 the origin of Hinda and the civil tech effect, and 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:11.839 these Turkish pretty forces attacked and conquered that vision, forcing 1:14:12.240 --> 1:14:15.840 all these people that already had to leave their homes 1:14:16.439 --> 1:14:21.759 more than five years ago to translating, yeah, so forcing 1:14:22.800 --> 1:14:25.920 them to flee once again. A lot of these people 1:14:26.240 --> 1:14:35.760 was trapped in a caroline that suffered brutal grades attacks, kidnapping, ransoms. 1:14:35.160 --> 1:14:39.360 Like it has been make a really terrible experience for. 1:14:39.400 --> 1:14:43.040 A lot of people that was trying to flee the 1:14:43.479 --> 1:14:47.559 offensive of these Turkish patty forces and most of them 1:14:47.600 --> 1:14:51.000 are now arriving to do that time to write two 1:14:51.080 --> 1:14:53.880 the visions of the self administration when where they are 1:14:53.960 --> 1:14:59.120 founding and they can find shelter and for those willing 1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:03.240 to help with mentioned that vast is the humanitarian organization, 1:15:03.400 --> 1:15:06.839 one of the biggest humanitarier organizations working in ant Assyria 1:15:07.880 --> 1:15:11.920 has been providing fans and foot and blankets and everything 1:15:11.960 --> 1:15:14.879 they can to support all these people that is arriving 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:15.799 on these areas. 1:15:16.439 --> 1:15:17.840 So those willing to. 1:15:18.360 --> 1:15:23.479 Support economically and this humanitarian crisis we are experiencing, they 1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:25.560 can't easily find. 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:28.639 The right side. And the Banakana. 1:15:28.080 --> 1:15:32.599 Favasa to donay to them to support all these people 1:15:32.640 --> 1:15:35.080 that went again know there in their homes. 1:15:36.280 --> 1:15:38.640 But the offensives didn't stop. 1:15:38.520 --> 1:15:43.880 On an Shaffa and the SNA continued their attacks to 1:15:44.040 --> 1:15:47.840 cover the city of Manage already right now and this 1:15:48.120 --> 1:15:52.080 was a really heavy classious that it was a really 1:15:52.840 --> 1:15:59.040 serious military conflict that has been totally supported by Turkish 1:15:59.200 --> 1:16:00.639 artillery and air force. 1:16:01.200 --> 1:16:02.440 We are talking about. 1:16:02.320 --> 1:16:07.760 Drones sitting different positions and even airplanes that of course 1:16:08.000 --> 1:16:11.760 like nature air force have been bombing positions of the 1:16:11.800 --> 1:16:19.080 cerin democratic forces, allowing these different even groups that are out. 1:16:18.840 --> 1:16:22.480 Of this coalition of the SMA, these published pactic forces 1:16:22.960 --> 1:16:24.400 to control of the city. 1:16:25.560 --> 1:16:30.040 At the moment, there is already several days a man 1:16:30.080 --> 1:16:34.760 beach this city have been organizing protests and even in 1:16:34.840 --> 1:16:40.240 general strike that started yesterday and the occupation because these 1:16:40.280 --> 1:16:44.280 groups that occupied the city are looting and even killing 1:16:44.640 --> 1:16:49.320 local populations in a really terrible situation. Of this experience 1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:54.519 in the local people living in Maniche, and they are. 1:16:55.960 --> 1:16:57.080 Willing to continue. 1:16:57.120 --> 1:16:59.600 They have been threatening the city of Colony in the 1:16:59.680 --> 1:17:04.200 simple of resistance of the regional revolution against the designed state. 1:17:04.960 --> 1:17:07.200 And these threads and the city are. 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:10.479 Not just the bombings of the air force and artillery, 1:17:11.080 --> 1:17:15.559 but also a lot of military and personal of the 1:17:15.680 --> 1:17:22.720 Turkish prepsy forces gathering on the bridge that connects the divisions. 1:17:22.080 --> 1:17:26.160 Of man Beach and Commanding and all across the air 1:17:26.240 --> 1:17:26.880 for this river. 1:17:28.200 --> 1:17:33.160 So this war is not so reported that it's been 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:39.280 really BOLTI times against the self administration in Northeastyria. We 1:17:39.360 --> 1:17:43.240 are trying to report and update about the situation. We 1:17:43.400 --> 1:17:47.799 also published two statements to to call out at tension 1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:54.520 for comrade what is ongoing here and maybe also. 1:17:54.280 --> 1:17:57.599 Talk a bit about the work that we have been 1:17:57.640 --> 1:17:59.640 doing underground. 1:18:00.680 --> 1:18:04.839 We need to remark that this offensive of the Mambage 1:18:04.880 --> 1:18:08.080 and now districts and Colony have not been the only 1:18:08.160 --> 1:18:10.840 duds of the Turkish army and the perhapsy forces on 1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:16.320 the wing all around the street that they occupied in 1:18:16.439 --> 1:18:21.080 twenty eighteen and two thousand nineteen. The areas around the 1:18:21.080 --> 1:18:24.760 city of Sylvania and Anisa next to the border with 1:18:24.960 --> 1:18:29.720 Turkie also host a lot of Islamist groups that are 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:33.840 part of this Turkish proty coalition and they have been 1:18:34.040 --> 1:18:39.240 intensively bonding the areas and their surroundings. And there have 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:46.600 been quiet widespread rumors of the Zamie Hope togethering forces 1:18:46.640 --> 1:18:51.960 to continue their reports on the self administration of Nordestria 1:18:52.040 --> 1:18:56.760 and the ward of the Cylind Democratic Forces. We from 1:18:56.760 --> 1:19:00.000 the kasinosas we have been working in the medical capacity, 1:19:00.080 --> 1:19:04.040 the providing materials for the medical points in the in 1:19:04.080 --> 1:19:05.719 the fundance and being. 1:19:05.560 --> 1:19:08.040 Present in the foundlands together with. 1:19:08.040 --> 1:19:12.519 The Syrian Democratic Forces in case that a new invasion, 1:19:12.840 --> 1:19:15.160 and it is happening right now. 1:19:15.240 --> 1:19:19.800 The bombings are hitting different areas and it has been 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:21.960 really intense in the last days. 1:19:22.479 --> 1:19:26.280 The Syrian Democratic Forces are in maximum alard and especially 1:19:26.280 --> 1:19:31.360 there is an important call in solidarity with the city 1:19:31.400 --> 1:19:34.160 of Covany, a symbol of resistance. 1:19:33.680 --> 1:19:36.000 That is small ones again under threat. 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:41.800 We have been seen as demonstrations are around the world 1:19:41.800 --> 1:19:46.960 in Solarity with the motions here and this has been 1:19:47.000 --> 1:19:52.920 also bringing out as motivation to continue the resistance underground. 1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:58.000 Right now, uh, these situations of the instability and political 1:19:58.000 --> 1:20:03.120 tradition is still in ways that are difficult to predict. 1:20:03.720 --> 1:20:08.200 We can see how the self administration has been tending political. 1:20:07.760 --> 1:20:12.000 Realizations to the matters to memor Shade with this new 1:20:12.080 --> 1:20:13.520 provisional government. 1:20:14.160 --> 1:20:17.639 With the attempt to reach autonomy. 1:20:17.160 --> 1:20:21.760 For the region that connects with the ideas of democratic controlism, 1:20:22.680 --> 1:20:28.640 the ideas of democratic comprolism. Don't expect to run a 1:20:28.760 --> 1:20:32.760 state institutions because we don't want to live in a 1:20:33.160 --> 1:20:37.679 society that is ruled by a state, and are calling 1:20:37.840 --> 1:20:44.400 for time of autonomy in a local governments where then 1:20:44.479 --> 1:20:49.920 the different communities can live together, colleges together, administering their 1:20:50.360 --> 1:20:51.520 social forms. 1:20:51.479 --> 1:20:53.679 Together and also their defense. 1:20:54.479 --> 1:20:57.080 We'll see how the civil democratic forces is at a 1:20:57.200 --> 1:21:02.519 military coalition of different local teleforces that it's made on 1:21:02.640 --> 1:21:06.120 the principles of self defense. Maybe to give a bit 1:21:06.160 --> 1:21:09.760 of contexts of what we have been doing here for 1:21:10.120 --> 1:21:14.960 several years that our organization has been operating another Syria. 1:21:16.320 --> 1:21:20.880 As anarchists. We can here in solidarity international society with 1:21:21.000 --> 1:21:22.120 this revolution. 1:21:22.200 --> 1:21:27.080 Because their political values and their political project is really 1:21:27.200 --> 1:21:32.760 close to our ideas. We see big similarities with the 1:21:33.439 --> 1:21:38.120 ideas of libertarian socialism and social ecology and thinkers and 1:21:38.240 --> 1:21:42.200 moral bootin have been a big inspiration found others and 1:21:42.640 --> 1:21:47.120 the leader of the cour Desirational movement that has been 1:21:47.160 --> 1:21:54.360 proposing this political friend called democratic controlism, where especially with 1:21:54.479 --> 1:21:58.080 the principles of one liberation, social ecology and studios and 1:21:58.160 --> 1:22:05.639 offracy has been political campus of the revolution here. Building 1:22:06.240 --> 1:22:11.160 autonomy in the different regions has been also a very 1:22:11.240 --> 1:22:16.800 important element to develop the project, and especially during the 1:22:16.880 --> 1:22:20.840 war and in one state, as soon as the different 1:22:21.000 --> 1:22:25.200 territories were liberated, there was a big emphasis on creating 1:22:25.320 --> 1:22:29.519 local councils civilian and military councils. 1:22:29.160 --> 1:22:33.719 Both that around their own affairs. 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:38.120 This is very interesting from anarchists perspective not to see 1:22:38.280 --> 1:22:43.320 how one of the main political points is these promotings 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:47.479 of defense and creating a military force that is not 1:22:47.680 --> 1:22:51.919 based on a centralized monopoly of balance, but on allowing 1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:55.640 every community to take care of their own defense and 1:22:55.840 --> 1:22:59.240 their own offairs. This is a really inspiring element that 1:23:00.080 --> 1:23:04.080 for us has been also a really extraordinary learning process 1:23:04.920 --> 1:23:07.880 being part of a revolution, leaving day to. 1:23:07.960 --> 1:23:11.920 Day the developments that are happening here and. 1:23:13.200 --> 1:23:16.639 Seeing what doesn't mean to make a revolution, because it's 1:23:16.680 --> 1:23:20.479 something that sometimes we anarchists look back often in at 1:23:20.520 --> 1:23:23.920 the epic times of like Spain one thirty six or 1:23:24.360 --> 1:23:28.479 Ukraine in the twenties to see examples of an anarchist revolution, 1:23:29.120 --> 1:23:34.120 and this is something that today is happening here. Courdistant 1:23:34.200 --> 1:23:38.680 has been for a long time living resistance against the 1:23:38.840 --> 1:23:42.120 logic of national states, especially in Turkey, but we saw 1:23:42.200 --> 1:23:45.120 how it has been funding in Syria where that this 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:49.799 movement found the space to put in practice these ideas 1:23:50.320 --> 1:23:55.000 and to develop the revolutionary society that has been theorized 1:23:55.040 --> 1:23:58.280 for a long time. So even if we cannot save 1:23:58.439 --> 1:24:02.440 vergialwas an anarchist, that we can say how the principles 1:24:02.640 --> 1:24:08.000 inspired the project and that it's been developed here and implemented. 1:24:08.400 --> 1:24:12.719 This is a really an important school and it brings 1:24:12.760 --> 1:24:16.920 a lot of lections of the big challenges of reorganizing 1:24:17.320 --> 1:24:22.640 a society with principles of euer Italian socialism. It is 1:24:22.800 --> 1:24:27.879 especially complicated here because of external reasms like the situation 1:24:28.000 --> 1:24:31.120 of the Marble, the constant threat of the Tutis army, 1:24:31.760 --> 1:24:35.879 and this is something that for sure we can point out. 1:24:35.720 --> 1:24:38.360 As like, well, it's very difficult to make a revolution 1:24:38.479 --> 1:24:42.320 with these factors, but this is also acting that making 1:24:42.360 --> 1:24:46.400 a revolution will always be difficult, and we always have 1:24:47.360 --> 1:24:48.200 really big. 1:24:48.360 --> 1:24:52.120 Factors that make the situation very difficult. If making a 1:24:52.120 --> 1:24:54.280 revolution would be easy. 1:24:54.680 --> 1:24:55.920 We would already have done it. 1:24:56.400 --> 1:24:59.680 So of course it's something that brings a lot of difficulties, 1:24:59.720 --> 1:25:03.320 a lot contradictions, to a lot of challenges and use 1:25:03.400 --> 1:25:07.240 here day to day living what it means to build 1:25:07.240 --> 1:25:10.479 the revolutionary society, a lot, a lot of equations from 1:25:10.520 --> 1:25:14.479 the reflections that we also able to translate and to 1:25:14.640 --> 1:25:18.439 reflect together with the artist movements from around the world, to. 1:25:18.880 --> 1:25:23.280 Learn from his experience and to be able to analyze 1:25:23.320 --> 1:25:27.040 together and reflect and discuss together of what it means 1:25:27.720 --> 1:25:31.439 to build anarchism in the twenty first century, what it 1:25:31.600 --> 1:25:36.800 means to build libertarian socialism nowadays, in the current society 1:25:36.920 --> 1:25:38.600 with all the different. 1:25:38.400 --> 1:25:42.559 Elements that we see, and of course in the military 1:25:42.600 --> 1:25:47.280 comes the digion going. It can seem maybe sometimes far 1:25:47.320 --> 1:25:51.880 away of a community in western countries, but I think 1:25:51.880 --> 1:25:55.080 it's important to remember that revolution and war had been 1:25:55.200 --> 1:25:57.559 always to size of the same time. 1:26:00.040 --> 1:26:05.120 In these moments of instability of war where the logic 1:26:05.200 --> 1:26:09.320 and the established school of national states is more weak, 1:26:10.080 --> 1:26:12.280 because we can actually. 1:26:12.000 --> 1:26:14.439 See in nine other times, in other moments or even 1:26:14.479 --> 1:26:18.280 in other places nowadays, what is happening, for example, in 1:26:18.360 --> 1:26:21.559 the now, what is happening in the different areas where. 1:26:21.880 --> 1:26:25.000 The logic of a national state is in questioned. 1:26:25.240 --> 1:26:28.320 Creates in the stability to create a situation where the 1:26:28.479 --> 1:26:31.000 different actors will push. 1:26:30.760 --> 1:26:34.880 To take control. And we know that often those actors 1:26:35.320 --> 1:26:37.960 will be led by a nationalism. 1:26:37.560 --> 1:26:42.439 Forces mentality with an authoritarian logic to just impose their 1:26:42.560 --> 1:26:45.559 ideas and their aims by force. 1:26:46.479 --> 1:26:50.160 And it's very important that we think and we reflect and. 1:26:50.240 --> 1:26:55.639 Reorganize force that is able to react to that situation 1:26:56.200 --> 1:26:58.040 because a traitarian. 1:26:57.479 --> 1:27:03.160 And hierarchic structors are required false to react. 1:27:03.920 --> 1:27:07.439 We as anarchist, we need time to organize Arizona pally 1:27:07.880 --> 1:27:09.960 because our structures. 1:27:09.520 --> 1:27:15.519 Function based usurn thrust also knowing each other. And even 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:19.280 if I really believe that they are much more solid 1:27:19.320 --> 1:27:22.519 and much more reliable in a long term, in a 1:27:22.600 --> 1:27:25.759 short term we can face big, big challenge. 1:27:26.280 --> 1:27:30.160 So it's important to see fascism is as with advancing 1:27:30.479 --> 1:27:33.679 all around the world, and we can see how. 1:27:33.680 --> 1:27:35.960 The intentions are like growing. 1:27:36.800 --> 1:27:41.040 So maybe this isn't as a call might to learn 1:27:41.160 --> 1:27:44.719 from the lessons here, to learn from how the Kurdish 1:27:44.800 --> 1:27:49.240 movement have been working and preparing for decades and what 1:27:49.800 --> 1:27:54.200 happened in Syria made possible for the revolutionary movement to 1:27:55.640 --> 1:27:58.680 put the cards on the table, to organize together with 1:27:58.800 --> 1:28:01.760 the people and to defense and their people and their 1:28:01.800 --> 1:28:07.840 communities building this revelifering process. But nowadays that so many 1:28:07.880 --> 1:28:13.080 people have been like taking inspiration from, So yeah, probably 1:28:14.000 --> 1:28:15.799 this is a bit confusing and maybe. 1:28:16.160 --> 1:28:20.479 Not so current. Sorry, we have been quiet some hours. 1:28:21.160 --> 1:28:26.479 We've had several weeks that have been extremely challenging with really. 1:28:26.360 --> 1:28:27.360 Few hours of sleep. 1:28:28.160 --> 1:28:31.400 But I hope this is more or less clear, and 1:28:32.040 --> 1:28:35.360 this is doing is something that it's not so understandable. 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:39.640 And always welcome new and. 1:28:39.880 --> 1:28:45.400 New questions and helping to answer, answer and share more perspective. 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:51.240 We have been answer writing some statements in their answer 1:28:51.360 --> 1:28:56.240 trying to answer all those people interested in learning more 1:28:56.280 --> 1:28:59.040 about the situation here and in. 1:28:59.040 --> 1:29:00.559 A ways special for different. 1:29:20.680 --> 1:29:23.280 Welcome to what could Happen Here? A show about things 1:29:23.439 --> 1:29:28.040 falling apart. I'm Garrison Davis, and this episode is going 1:29:28.120 --> 1:29:31.639 to be a special audio companion piece to an article 1:29:31.960 --> 1:29:37.280 published last night on substack at shatter Zone. That's Robert's 1:29:37.360 --> 1:29:41.360 usual substack, though. Last night I publish an article detailing 1:29:41.600 --> 1:29:48.559 the online history and transvestigation discourse regarding a school shooting 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:53.639 in Madison, Wisconsin. The article has pictures and hyperlinks which 1:29:53.760 --> 1:29:55.960 might help explain some of the stuff I'm talking about, 1:29:56.280 --> 1:29:57.920 but I'll do my best to relay it here to 1:29:58.000 --> 1:30:02.840 you on the podcast feed. Another Monday in America and 1:30:03.040 --> 1:30:07.800 another school shooting. On the morning of December sixteenth, a 1:30:07.880 --> 1:30:11.639 female student at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:15.080 shot and killed a teacher and fellow student, and injured 1:30:15.120 --> 1:30:19.880 six others before killing herself. Initially, police falsely reported the 1:30:19.880 --> 1:30:23.439 shooter was seventeen years old, but late Monday night they 1:30:23.520 --> 1:30:27.400 correctly identified the deceased shooter as fifteen year old Natalie 1:30:27.479 --> 1:30:32.040 ruppnow who went by Samantha or sam. In the aftermath 1:30:32.080 --> 1:30:36.240 of this horrific event, right wing influencers and content creators 1:30:36.360 --> 1:30:39.759 wasted no time in blaming the shooting on trans people, 1:30:40.520 --> 1:30:43.320 labeling the suspect as another in a series of alleged 1:30:43.520 --> 1:30:48.479 transgender terrorists. But what really happened here, had nothing to 1:30:48.600 --> 1:30:53.200 do with trans people, and is sadly ordinary for the 1:30:53.360 --> 1:30:57.800 United States. In August of twenty twenty four, the father 1:30:57.960 --> 1:31:00.760 of the future school shooter took his to a gun 1:31:00.880 --> 1:31:04.479 range to do trap shooting. Samantha wore a shirt bearing 1:31:04.520 --> 1:31:09.000 the logo of a band KMFDM. In another photo of 1:31:09.080 --> 1:31:11.160 the shooter, we can see the front of the shirt. 1:31:12.000 --> 1:31:16.120 The same design was famously worn by Columbine shooter Eric Harris, 1:31:16.439 --> 1:31:19.720 who is a fan of the band. The bulk of 1:31:19.800 --> 1:31:23.600 this new shooter's online footprint suggests a general obsession with 1:31:23.720 --> 1:31:28.840 school shooters and the TCC or True Crime Community, a 1:31:29.000 --> 1:31:34.400 nickname used for the de facto international Columbine fandom. This 1:31:34.520 --> 1:31:38.519 sort of content dominates Samantha's tumbler, which last posted in 1:31:38.760 --> 1:31:42.240 May of twenty twenty four. An alleged online friend of 1:31:42.320 --> 1:31:46.360 the shooter said that she quote posted about school shooters 1:31:46.479 --> 1:31:51.559 all the time quote end quote had school shooter leanings unquote. 1:31:52.080 --> 1:31:55.240 Samantha is hardly alone in this. There have been over 1:31:55.439 --> 1:31:59.639 one hundred copycats inspired by the Columbine shooting since nineteen 1:31:59.720 --> 1:32:03.160 ninety nine. A Twitter account believes to have belonged to 1:32:03.200 --> 1:32:05.920 the shooter posted a series of videos that teased and 1:32:06.080 --> 1:32:09.360 glorified school shootings in the days leading up to her 1:32:09.439 --> 1:32:12.439 own shooting. The account was created in December of twenty 1:32:12.479 --> 1:32:15.439 twenty four, and the profile picture featured a young man 1:32:15.640 --> 1:32:19.639 in camo pants and a tactical backpack. The male profile 1:32:19.720 --> 1:32:23.880 picture was used as evidence by some conservative influencers that 1:32:24.000 --> 1:32:28.320 the shooter must have transitioned, though these same influencers cannot 1:32:28.320 --> 1:32:31.160 agree on whether she was female to male or male 1:32:31.240 --> 1:32:35.240 to female. One user constructed an overlay trying to compare 1:32:35.320 --> 1:32:38.679 the photo of the shooter with her Twitter profile picture. 1:32:39.280 --> 1:32:43.080 This is a ridiculous diagram with about seven images overlaid 1:32:43.080 --> 1:32:46.479 at different opacities, trying to layer the faces and body 1:32:46.520 --> 1:32:49.320 shapes of these two people on top of each other. 1:32:50.000 --> 1:32:52.599 This post is only proof that most of what gets 1:32:52.680 --> 1:32:57.160 passed off as quote unquote ocant online today's just completely 1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:01.839 incompetent rambling and propaganda. The main issue with his diagram 1:33:02.240 --> 1:33:06.760 is that the male profile picture is actually another Columbine copycat, 1:33:06.960 --> 1:33:10.519 a school shooter from Russia who, similar to Samantha, was 1:33:10.600 --> 1:33:13.639 only fifteen years old when he carried out his shooting. 1:33:14.680 --> 1:33:18.000 Hours after the shooting in Madison, Wisconsin, while right wing 1:33:18.080 --> 1:33:22.000 accounts were still arguing about what sort of transgender the 1:33:22.080 --> 1:33:26.160 shooter had been. A neo Nazi Twitter account named Nitro 1:33:26.800 --> 1:33:29.760 claimed to be friends with the shooter on Discord and 1:33:29.880 --> 1:33:33.640 repeatedly denied accusations that the shooter was transgender, calling her 1:33:33.640 --> 1:33:38.800 our quote unquote biological woman. An early complicating factor in 1:33:38.960 --> 1:33:42.000 establishing the motive and identity of the shooter is that 1:33:42.400 --> 1:33:45.240 her alleged Twitter account posted a link to a Google 1:33:45.280 --> 1:33:50.120 doc of her manifesto, but seemingly forgot to make the 1:33:50.360 --> 1:33:54.160 visibility setting public, so you couldn't access. 1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:54.400 The Google doc. 1:33:54.479 --> 1:33:56.519 You had to put in an email for approval, and 1:33:56.600 --> 1:33:58.760 the person who was supposed to approve your email was 1:33:58.840 --> 1:34:01.840 now dead, so there was no way to actually look 1:34:01.920 --> 1:34:06.280 at this person's manifesto. The shooter's alleged Discord friend, Nitro, 1:34:06.800 --> 1:34:09.479 claims to find what he believes to be a snippet 1:34:09.680 --> 1:34:13.439 of a manifesto draft shared by the shooter in a 1:34:13.600 --> 1:34:17.160 Discord group chat. Nitro is based out of the UK, 1:34:17.800 --> 1:34:20.200 and so if this is legitimate, and that is a 1:34:20.320 --> 1:34:23.559 big if, this message would have been sent about an 1:34:23.680 --> 1:34:27.800 hour and a half before the shooting, per the Discord timestamp. 1:34:28.520 --> 1:34:30.960 I'm going to read a bit of this alleged writing 1:34:31.200 --> 1:34:34.519 from the shooter quote. Women are the only hope for 1:34:34.600 --> 1:34:38.120 this wretched world. But even women have been brainwashed by 1:34:38.320 --> 1:34:43.120 moids for too long. They've internalized the patriarchy and turned 1:34:43.160 --> 1:34:46.479 on each other, always begging for male approval and validation. 1:34:46.680 --> 1:34:52.000 It's disgusting. I realize the truth. Men are irredeemable. Radfem 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:57.280 Hitler was is fucking vindicated. Now they can't be reformed 1:34:57.360 --> 1:35:00.000 or redeemed. They are a fucking scourge upon the earth. 1:35:00.360 --> 1:35:04.639 The only solution is to total exterminate them and every 1:35:04.960 --> 1:35:09.479 foid who worships these fucking parasites. Every single male must 1:35:09.520 --> 1:35:12.519 be wiped out, from babies to the elderly. Only then 1:35:12.640 --> 1:35:14.840 can women be free to create a new world. All 1:35:14.920 --> 1:35:17.080 be the pioneer. I'll be the first one to take 1:35:17.120 --> 1:35:22.519 the first step. I don't care if their fathers, brothers, husbands, sons, teachers, police, 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:27.200 and especially n words or politicians. I've been craving to 1:35:27.320 --> 1:35:30.200 kill them all. This is my mission. Only when their 1:35:30.320 --> 1:35:33.519 parasitic sludge has been expunged from the earth is when 1:35:33.920 --> 1:35:36.920 then the world will be clean and women can start over. 1:35:37.360 --> 1:35:40.759 It's the only way. In approximately ten minutes, I should 1:35:40.760 --> 1:35:46.040 be dead. It's strange, but it feels good. Hopefully to 1:35:46.200 --> 1:35:51.640 most people, this should read like unintelligible gibberish, a reactionary 1:35:51.720 --> 1:35:55.679 quote unquote feminist screed about initiating a wave of male 1:35:55.880 --> 1:36:01.280 targeted violence to cleanse the earth with pepperings of and foids, 1:36:01.400 --> 1:36:04.680 which is Internet in cell slang for male and female respectively. 1:36:05.280 --> 1:36:09.400 Also included are racial slurs and something called quote unquote 1:36:09.600 --> 1:36:13.160 radfem Hitler. That last part is a reference to a 1:36:13.200 --> 1:36:16.639 Twitter influencer by the same name and the handle hollow 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:21.560 earth Turf, whose content is a mix of trad influenced 1:36:21.720 --> 1:36:26.200 right wing feminism with anti trans flourishes, advocating for a 1:36:26.400 --> 1:36:31.839 mass purge of mooids. This includes trans women. This account 1:36:31.960 --> 1:36:34.920 is derided by those both on the right and left, 1:36:35.439 --> 1:36:38.920 but has a small dedicated following of conservative radfem and 1:36:39.080 --> 1:36:45.000 anti trans women with trad or often occult interests. The 1:36:45.080 --> 1:36:48.559 discord nazi Nitro claimed that the shooter was quote unquote 1:36:48.880 --> 1:36:52.519 a fan of radfem Hitler and talked about the account 1:36:52.560 --> 1:36:56.519 frequently on Discord. Though Nitro previously believed her interest in 1:36:56.600 --> 1:37:00.720 the account was merely ironic, now obviously an anonymous Twitter 1:37:00.840 --> 1:37:04.840 nazi is certainly not the most reliable source, but Nitro 1:37:05.120 --> 1:37:08.400 was the first person to correctly identify and post photos 1:37:08.439 --> 1:37:12.280 of the shooter. Though they could be utilizing this newfound 1:37:12.400 --> 1:37:16.280 clout to troll a widely disliked Twitter user, but the 1:37:16.360 --> 1:37:20.200 fact that he's been right about all other details inclines 1:37:20.240 --> 1:37:24.080 me to not discount his claims just altogether, but instead 1:37:24.240 --> 1:37:28.920 just hold them with a billion pounds of salt. Allegations 1:37:28.960 --> 1:37:33.160 that the shooter was a neo Nazi Radfem certainly sent 1:37:33.479 --> 1:37:38.439 Radfem Hitler into a panic, who quickly deleted her account. Meanwhile, 1:37:38.600 --> 1:37:42.160 some of her online associates worked damage control, claiming to 1:37:42.240 --> 1:37:45.120 have contacted the alleged boyfriend that the shooter had been 1:37:45.240 --> 1:37:49.280 quote unquote e dating, with the apparent intention of disproving 1:37:49.400 --> 1:37:53.080 any ties the shooter had to the Twitter Radfem orbit. 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:58.160 Through this alleged online boyfriend, the right wing turf Ecosystem 1:37:58.439 --> 1:38:01.040 claimed to have acquired a copy of the quote unquote 1:38:01.439 --> 1:38:07.559 full manifesto. This purported manifesto lacks the anti male, anti 1:38:07.760 --> 1:38:12.800 moid ramblings of the discord screenshot, but unsurprisingly shares its 1:38:12.880 --> 1:38:17.439 use of racial slurs and glorification of violence, at times 1:38:17.479 --> 1:38:21.800 evocative of Pecca Eric Auvinen's manifesto, a Finnish school shooter 1:38:21.920 --> 1:38:25.599 from two US and seven who killed eight people. Auvinen 1:38:25.720 --> 1:38:29.839 considered himself a quote unquote natural selector who had evolved 1:38:29.960 --> 1:38:35.080 beyond the classmates he gunned down. In Samantha's purported manifesto, 1:38:35.640 --> 1:38:39.760 he is mentioned by name as a quote unquote true inspiration. 1:38:40.880 --> 1:38:44.479 Over the course of eight hours, a radfem Twitter account 1:38:44.600 --> 1:38:48.400 released six pages of what they claimed to be Samantha's writing. 1:38:49.120 --> 1:38:52.920 It contains general misanthropic rambling about humanity and parents being 1:38:53.000 --> 1:38:56.599 quote unquote scum. The writing describes a difficult family life, 1:38:56.680 --> 1:39:00.800 suicidal thoughts, and admiration for school shooters and white supremacists. 1:39:01.640 --> 1:39:07.360 Though it briefly references the accelerationist terror gram saints, the 1:39:07.439 --> 1:39:10.360 whole of this piece of writing is much more reminiscent 1:39:10.520 --> 1:39:15.920 of old school columnbiners than the modern white nationalist terror milieu. 1:39:17.120 --> 1:39:20.880 The alleged manifesto directly names the two Columbine shooters and 1:39:21.040 --> 1:39:26.600 includes a paragraph on Vladyskov Rosleyakhov, another Columbine copycat, but 1:39:26.800 --> 1:39:29.280 from Crimea, who also cause played as one of the 1:39:29.320 --> 1:39:33.360 Columbine shooters during his own mass shooting. Though the discord 1:39:33.439 --> 1:39:37.280 Nazi and the reactionary rad femmes question the authenticity of 1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:41.200 the others alleged manifesto, what both sides of the in 1:39:41.360 --> 1:39:45.760 cell war do agree on is that Samantha was not transgender. 1:39:46.680 --> 1:39:48.240 We're going to go on a quick ad break and 1:39:48.360 --> 1:39:52.799 come back to discuss transvestigation and the trans terror panic. 1:40:02.640 --> 1:40:03.519 Okay, we are back. 1:40:04.840 --> 1:40:08.519 It seems these days the fastest way to get transvestigated 1:40:09.040 --> 1:40:13.120 is to do a school shooting. Transvestigating is the practice 1:40:13.200 --> 1:40:17.599 of trying to determine if an individual is transgender. It's 1:40:17.680 --> 1:40:22.760 often leveled against celebrities, athletes, and politicians, but in recent 1:40:22.880 --> 1:40:28.440 years there's been a new common subject of transvestigation, mass shooters, 1:40:28.880 --> 1:40:33.920 in particular school shooters. Myself, Robert Evans, and James Stout 1:40:34.360 --> 1:40:37.760 previously reported on this trend back in twenty twenty three, 1:40:38.320 --> 1:40:41.439 right as it grew in prominence after the Nashville Covenant 1:40:41.479 --> 1:40:45.120 School shooting, which police say was committed by a transman, 1:40:45.880 --> 1:40:48.640 we theorized that the online right was testing out a 1:40:48.760 --> 1:40:52.560 new strategy to attack trans people by associating them with 1:40:52.800 --> 1:40:56.600 mass shootings via the use of selective bias reporting and 1:40:56.840 --> 1:41:02.280 plane disinformation that fear has come to pass. The modicum 1:41:02.360 --> 1:41:06.080 of believability provided by the Nashville shooting, as it's the 1:41:06.200 --> 1:41:10.960 only legitimate transrelated incident that meets criteria for mainstream mass 1:41:11.000 --> 1:41:15.280 shooting databases, was enough to fuel this ongoing strategy for 1:41:15.360 --> 1:41:20.200 the next two years. Since then, conservative influencers have attempted 1:41:20.280 --> 1:41:24.960 to link nearly every viral mass slash school shooting to 1:41:25.080 --> 1:41:29.080 trans people to create a false trend. The strategy operates 1:41:29.160 --> 1:41:33.040 as follows. During the first few chaotic hours after a shooting, 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:36.000 a small group of right wing content creators weaponized the 1:41:36.080 --> 1:41:39.559 lack of verified information to make posts framing an alleged 1:41:39.600 --> 1:41:42.519 shooter as being transgender. This can be done through the 1:41:42.600 --> 1:41:45.880 use of out of context social media posts, doctrine photographs, 1:41:46.160 --> 1:41:50.080 photos of other people, or simply pictures of long or 1:41:50.240 --> 1:41:53.320 dyed hair. All they need is a collection of loose 1:41:53.400 --> 1:41:56.920 evidence to affirm on social media that a mass shooter 1:41:57.400 --> 1:42:00.479 is really transgender. For more context on this, you can 1:42:00.560 --> 1:42:02.479 listen to an episode of It Could Happen here. I 1:42:02.600 --> 1:42:07.480 wrote earlier this year covering the rise of fake trans terrorists. 1:42:08.840 --> 1:42:11.120 The goal is to get as many of their followers 1:42:11.280 --> 1:42:15.240 to see and spread these claims as fast as possible. 1:42:15.920 --> 1:42:19.000 Even if it's widely debunked the next day, many who 1:42:19.120 --> 1:42:22.519 heard the false claim won't be aware of the verified correction. 1:42:23.400 --> 1:42:26.360 All these anti trans influencers in need is a brief 1:42:26.479 --> 1:42:30.000 window of time to plant the idea into people's minds, 1:42:30.640 --> 1:42:35.640 and then that becomes remembered history. If this strategy is 1:42:35.720 --> 1:42:38.719 repeated every few months whenever there's a new mass shooting, 1:42:39.360 --> 1:42:42.320 then it's pretty easy to create the false perception of 1:42:42.400 --> 1:42:43.360 a growing trend. 1:42:44.080 --> 1:42:44.200 Now. 1:42:44.439 --> 1:42:47.960 In reality, trans people per capita are actually way less 1:42:48.120 --> 1:42:51.479 likely to commit a shooting compared to CIS people, and 1:42:51.800 --> 1:42:54.920 are much more likely to be the victim of gun violence. 1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:59.559 But this past Monday, conservative and anti trans influencers tried 1:42:59.600 --> 1:43:03.280 once again to weaponize a tragedy for their own hateful agenda. 1:43:04.080 --> 1:43:09.559 Monday afternoon, Ian Miles Chung posted trans terrorism must end. 1:43:10.360 --> 1:43:14.360 Hours later, Laura Lumer wrote, quote the trans movement is 1:43:14.439 --> 1:43:18.560 really turning out to be a terrorist movement unquote. Just 1:43:18.680 --> 1:43:22.400 minutes after police responded to the shooting, the conservative influencer 1:43:22.600 --> 1:43:26.679 Matt Wallace posted that an unknown quote unquote witness said 1:43:26.680 --> 1:43:31.280 that the shooter quote looked to be transgender unquote. Wallace, 1:43:31.320 --> 1:43:34.360 who has over two point two million followers on Twitter, 1:43:34.720 --> 1:43:38.559 provided no source or citation and has since deleted this post, 1:43:39.360 --> 1:43:43.599 but others in the online mega orbit parroted this language 1:43:43.720 --> 1:43:48.200 before any identifying information was released, with the user just 1:43:48.439 --> 1:43:52.679 Jeff from Cali writing a transperson targeted and opened fire 1:43:52.800 --> 1:43:56.439 on students at Abundant Life Christian School in Wisconsin twelve hit. 1:43:57.680 --> 1:44:01.200 The right wing content creator Ryan Mada baselessly claimed that 1:44:01.280 --> 1:44:04.559 the shooter was on hormone replacement therapy, calling the shooter 1:44:04.760 --> 1:44:08.880 quote another mentally unstable psychopath who has prescribed puberty blocker 1:44:09.040 --> 1:44:12.479 and hormones unquote. Mata hosts a show on the right 1:44:12.520 --> 1:44:16.320 wing YouTube alternative Rumble and has over one hundred and 1:44:16.400 --> 1:44:19.280 twenty three thousand followers on Twitter. His tweet claiming the 1:44:19.280 --> 1:44:21.880 shooter was on HRT racked up one point six million 1:44:21.960 --> 1:44:26.439 quote unquote views and seventeen thousand likes in just twelve hours. 1:44:27.240 --> 1:44:30.479 Larger accounts like Tya write Check's libs of TikTok fueled 1:44:30.640 --> 1:44:33.679 undue speculation about the gender identity of the shooter, seeding 1:44:33.720 --> 1:44:37.240 confusion into the growing discourse and weaponizing a tragedy for 1:44:37.320 --> 1:44:41.280 political gain, quoting the police chief saying, quote, I don't 1:44:41.320 --> 1:44:45.000 know if the shooter is male or female unquote. A 1:44:45.080 --> 1:44:49.160 small group of conservative influencers have just so successfully created 1:44:49.240 --> 1:44:52.960 in alternate reality in which nearly every new mass shooter 1:44:53.360 --> 1:44:56.439 is transgender that they don't even have to outright say 1:44:56.520 --> 1:44:59.920 it anymore. Accounts like libs of TikTok and Malaysian blog 1:45:00.040 --> 1:45:03.719 ugger Ian Miles Chung can merely gesture to this reality 1:45:03.760 --> 1:45:07.920 tunnel they've intentionally created, and now thousands of people will 1:45:07.960 --> 1:45:11.880 affirm this fake reality as the obvious truth, backed up 1:45:11.960 --> 1:45:16.479 by historical precedent of fabricated memory. Matt Wallace posted a 1:45:16.520 --> 1:45:19.800 photo of the shooter and the male profile picture, saying 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:24.200 what do you notice about the shooter again? Ian miles 1:45:24.280 --> 1:45:27.920 Chung posted quote, police are unable to identify if the 1:45:27.920 --> 1:45:31.880 school shooter in Madison, Wisconsin is male or female, but 1:45:32.000 --> 1:45:33.920 they do know who did it and identified them as 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:37.799 a student. Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking? Unquote? 1:45:38.840 --> 1:45:43.519 This speculation fueled conspiracy theories, which spread claiming that police 1:45:43.600 --> 1:45:47.880 were intentionally withholding information about the shooter's gender identity in 1:45:48.000 --> 1:45:52.080 service of some hidden agenda, and actually they were just 1:45:52.200 --> 1:45:55.120 waiting to like let the family know that their daughter 1:45:55.320 --> 1:45:58.120 was dead and making sure they had the correct identification. 1:45:58.760 --> 1:46:01.599 Very basic stuff. Police all do this, but no, it's 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:05.080 all part of some secret agenda and some hidden narrative. 1:46:06.720 --> 1:46:10.040 As early as one pm EST on Monday, which is 1:46:10.360 --> 1:46:12.519 just like an hour after the shooting would have taken place, 1:46:13.040 --> 1:46:16.639 the neo Nazi Twitter account Nitro correctly identified the shooter 1:46:16.800 --> 1:46:21.920 as his online friend Sam Samantha. As this name spread online, 1:46:22.040 --> 1:46:25.800 the multi gendered nature of the name added to the 1:46:25.840 --> 1:46:30.479 speculation that the shooter was trans. Scarlett Johnson, an activist 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:33.920 with the ultra conservative parents' rights group Moms for Liberty 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:38.559 Shared self admitted unconfirmed reports that the shooter was quote 1:46:38.600 --> 1:46:43.000 unquote a transgender teen who went by Sam or Samantha. 1:46:44.080 --> 1:46:47.040 As alleged pictures of the shooter started to spread online 1:46:47.280 --> 1:46:51.800 courtesy of Nitro, the transvestigation of the shooter only intensified. 1:46:52.360 --> 1:46:56.639 An unfortunate coincidence is that the shooter's given name matches 1:46:56.760 --> 1:47:02.200 the ancient Sam Hide meme, in which extremely online people 1:47:02.360 --> 1:47:04.680 try to trick journalists into believing the culprit of a 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:09.120 new mass shooting was the American comedian Sam Hyde. In 1:47:09.240 --> 1:47:13.360 recent years, the meme has turned into the Samantha Hide meme, 1:47:13.840 --> 1:47:18.000 used to falsely label mass shooters as trans women. One 1:47:18.200 --> 1:47:22.240 hide post from an unassuming boomer named Ed Massey raked 1:47:22.320 --> 1:47:26.760 up over six hundred thousand views, four point five thousand likes, 1:47:27.120 --> 1:47:31.000 and one and a half thousand retweets. Massi posted quote, 1:47:31.560 --> 1:47:34.599 when you put disturbed children on hormone blockers and sexually 1:47:34.720 --> 1:47:38.439 mutilate them, you're not curing them. You're creating potential school 1:47:38.479 --> 1:47:42.920 shooters unquote. Now it should go without saying, but the 1:47:43.080 --> 1:47:46.960 use of puberty suppressing medication has no link to increased violence. 1:47:47.479 --> 1:47:49.799 We're going to go on one last break and return 1:47:49.920 --> 1:48:04.040 to conclude our discussion of transvestigating school shooters. Okay, we 1:48:04.160 --> 1:48:08.719 are back. Time to talk about the potential double flipper. 1:48:10.479 --> 1:48:14.320 So as this transvestigation continued, the quote unquote, we can 1:48:14.439 --> 1:48:19.799 always tell. Crowd ended up transvestigating in both directions, seemingly 1:48:20.000 --> 1:48:22.880 unsure of what a signed gender at birth the shooter 1:48:23.080 --> 1:48:26.479 must have had. Some believe the shooter was transferm while 1:48:26.520 --> 1:48:30.840 others concluded they were trans mask with one reply to 1:48:30.960 --> 1:48:34.479 an end wokeness tweet reading quote those do not look 1:48:34.600 --> 1:48:39.840 like female hands, and another transvestigation post saying the shooter 1:48:40.000 --> 1:48:43.320 is a trans kid, a female pretending to be a male. 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:46.759 Exactly why we keep our Second Amendment rights to protect 1:48:46.800 --> 1:48:50.160 our children from this mental health crisis. Zoom in close 1:48:50.280 --> 1:48:54.880 on her shirt and hand gesture unquote. A now deleted 1:48:54.920 --> 1:48:57.479 post from a URF account also attempted to pass off 1:48:57.520 --> 1:49:00.679 the shooter as a transgirl, saying, quote, the Wsconsin school 1:49:00.680 --> 1:49:05.120 shooter was a seventeen year old transidentified male. It just 1:49:05.320 --> 1:49:09.519 keeps happening now quote unquote. Trans identified male was usually 1:49:09.560 --> 1:49:12.360 a transphobadogu whistle to refer to a trans woman as 1:49:12.800 --> 1:49:17.560 a male who identifies as a trans woman, but sometimes 1:49:17.720 --> 1:49:20.960 transfoms get confused by words and use the phrase to 1:49:21.080 --> 1:49:24.240 refer to trans people who quote unquote identify as men, 1:49:25.000 --> 1:49:28.120 like this other transvestigation post saying quote shooter was a 1:49:28.160 --> 1:49:32.360 seventeen year old trans but identified male now. One of 1:49:32.400 --> 1:49:35.719 the most widespread posts claiming the shooter was a trans 1:49:35.840 --> 1:49:39.400 guy came from an anti Semitic doctor in Denmark with 1:49:39.520 --> 1:49:43.519 one point four million followers. She falsely claimed with no evidence, 1:49:43.880 --> 1:49:47.919 that the shooter was taking testosterone, writing quote the Wisconsin 1:49:48.000 --> 1:49:50.240 school shooter has been identified as a seventeen year old 1:49:50.320 --> 1:49:55.280 trans identified male another mentally ill girl on testosterone unquote. 1:49:55.880 --> 1:49:59.519 As of Tuesday morning, this post has over three million views, 1:49:59.600 --> 1:50:03.400 twenty two two thousand likes, and eight point three thousand retweets. 1:50:04.479 --> 1:50:07.800 In a following post, this doctor blamed quote unquote the 1:50:07.960 --> 1:50:13.519 Jews for inventing transgenderism as a note extremism. Researchers have 1:50:13.680 --> 1:50:18.280 argued that transphobia is structurally similar to anti semitism. Now. 1:50:18.400 --> 1:50:21.800 A common piece of anti trans memetic propaganda deployed in 1:50:21.880 --> 1:50:26.640 the wake of mass shootings is the transshooter collage. This 1:50:26.800 --> 1:50:29.840 format spread after the Nashville school shooting in twenty twenty three, 1:50:30.200 --> 1:50:33.519 and this week Matt Wallace provided us with a brand 1:50:33.560 --> 1:50:38.599 new version. This post is an ugly mishmash of one, two, three, four, five, six, 1:50:39.040 --> 1:50:43.640 seven people's faces with a variety of backgrounds, a purposeless 1:50:43.760 --> 1:50:46.280 red circle in the middle of the image, and text 1:50:46.360 --> 1:50:49.479 that reads quote, almost every child killed in a mass 1:50:49.479 --> 1:50:51.680 shooting in the last few years was killed by a 1:50:51.720 --> 1:50:56.160 transgender shooter. Now, out of all those pictures in this clash, 1:50:56.680 --> 1:50:59.360 only one person in this clash has actually reported to 1:50:59.400 --> 1:51:02.640 be transgender. The Nashville shooter in the upper left. The 1:51:02.840 --> 1:51:05.840 rest of the people pictured are not trans and have 1:51:06.000 --> 1:51:08.960 never claimed to be trans. The person with long hair 1:51:09.080 --> 1:51:11.960 in the lower half the image is cult Gray, who 1:51:12.040 --> 1:51:14.720 is falsely labeled as trans by far right influencers like 1:51:15.000 --> 1:51:19.519 end Wokeness and Mike Cernovich. Cult Gray's discord posts reveal 1:51:19.600 --> 1:51:23.880 he actually held transphobic beliefs. A more classic version of 1:51:23.960 --> 1:51:27.800 the trans shooter collage format is just five pictures with 1:51:27.960 --> 1:51:31.240 texts next to each of them, reading the X shooter 1:51:31.360 --> 1:51:35.519 identified as trans, the X shooter identified as trans right, 1:51:35.680 --> 1:51:37.600 just a big list of five of these names is 1:51:37.640 --> 1:51:41.479 saying that they all identified as trans. The version I'm 1:51:41.560 --> 1:51:45.639 using here is courtesy of Limbs of TikTok admin Chaya Reichek, 1:51:45.680 --> 1:51:49.160 who posted this earlier this year. But just as before, 1:51:49.360 --> 1:51:53.000 the majority of the subjects in this meme aren't actually 1:51:53.320 --> 1:51:57.519 trans and it's just full of disinformation. The Colorado Springs 1:51:57.600 --> 1:52:00.720 shooter who targeted a queer club is not actually non 1:52:00.800 --> 1:52:04.280 binary and simply tried to weaponize a false identity to 1:52:04.360 --> 1:52:07.280 get out of hate crime charges. The person labeled as 1:52:07.360 --> 1:52:10.760 the Denver shooter is not trans, has never claimed to 1:52:10.800 --> 1:52:14.880 be trans. He just has dyed hair. This individual pictured 1:52:15.080 --> 1:52:18.720 did plan the shooting with a transgender male who is 1:52:19.000 --> 1:52:23.200 not pictured. Now, Lastly, though the person pictured as the 1:52:23.360 --> 1:52:27.479 Euvaldi shooter is trans, this is not the actual Euvaldi shooter. 1:52:27.560 --> 1:52:30.200 It's a random trans girl who was one of two 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:33.320 trans women whose photos were used to falsely label the 1:52:33.400 --> 1:52:36.519 shooter as transgender. The other two people in this image 1:52:36.640 --> 1:52:38.880 is the Nashville shooter who does appear to be trans, 1:52:39.240 --> 1:52:43.320 and the perpetrator of the Aberdeen workplace shooting. But back 1:52:43.360 --> 1:52:48.040 to Madison, Wisconsin. So after all of that transvestigating, what 1:52:48.240 --> 1:52:52.360 do we have just another columnbiner with neo Nazi ties. 1:52:53.040 --> 1:52:55.880 The right has gotten so good at deploying the trans 1:52:55.960 --> 1:52:59.439 shooter as a smoke bomb it obscures the reality of 1:52:59.560 --> 1:53:03.840 the ov availability of firearms, the dynamics of online radicalization, 1:53:04.360 --> 1:53:08.599 and the social issues that fuel alienation and anger in youth. 1:53:09.400 --> 1:53:12.240 Instead of focusing on all that on the victims of 1:53:12.320 --> 1:53:15.720 this epidemic of white supremacist violence, we instead have to 1:53:15.720 --> 1:53:19.640 spend a whole day debunking the late shooters pronouns. And 1:53:20.000 --> 1:53:22.880 that's the point, that's what they want us talking about. 1:53:23.479 --> 1:53:27.360 Those who delete their quote unquote trans terrorist posts after 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:31.280 being conclusively proven wrong, will try the exact same shtick 1:53:31.400 --> 1:53:35.000 in a few months after the next mass shooting goes viral. 1:53:35.760 --> 1:53:38.360 Others won't even care that much. They'll just leave up 1:53:38.360 --> 1:53:41.920 their post, secure in the stability of the reality tunnel 1:53:42.240 --> 1:53:45.960 they helped to create. I'm going to close with a 1:53:46.080 --> 1:53:50.799 quote from Sartra. Never believe that fascists are completely unaware 1:53:50.920 --> 1:53:53.960 of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their 1:53:54.000 --> 1:53:58.360 remarks are frivolous, open to challenge, but they are amusing themselves, 1:53:59.080 --> 1:54:01.519 for it is their ada visari who was obliged to 1:54:01.760 --> 1:54:07.439 use words responsibly since he believes in words. This post 1:54:07.520 --> 1:54:30.160 has been deleted. Welcome to It could Happen Here, a 1:54:30.280 --> 1:54:33.840 podcast about the worst coups in all of history. I'm 1:54:33.880 --> 1:54:37.640 your host, Via Wong, and we are returning to one 1:54:37.680 --> 1:54:40.760 of the worst coups I have ever seen, because a 1:54:40.800 --> 1:54:44.040 whole bunch more stuff has happened in our most recent, 1:54:44.320 --> 1:54:48.520 unbelievably dogshit coup in South Korea, the six hour coup 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:52.840 at which President Yun declared martial law and tried to 1:54:52.840 --> 1:54:55.200 shut down the National Assembly, and then the National Assembly 1:54:56.280 --> 1:54:59.720 got together and voted to end the martial law, and 1:55:00.040 --> 1:55:03.600 then it stopped extremely. 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:07.280 Bizarre in baffling series of events. And you know, when 1:55:07.320 --> 1:55:10.640 we last left our intrepid heroes, the people of South Korea, 1:55:10.680 --> 1:55:13.160 they had just successfully overturned a coup. No one quite 1:55:13.200 --> 1:55:14.920 knew what was gonna happen in the aftermath. We knew 1:55:14.920 --> 1:55:19.200 an impeacha vote was coming, a vote to impeach President Yun. 1:55:20.200 --> 1:55:22.440 The reason we're coming back to this, though, is that 1:55:22.520 --> 1:55:25.360 the aftermath of all of this has been absolutely baffling, 1:55:26.160 --> 1:55:28.480 and I think this has all been lost in the 1:55:28.560 --> 1:55:31.440 news cycle because about a trillion things are happening right now, 1:55:31.760 --> 1:55:36.320 but the situation in South Korea has been unbelievably weird, 1:55:37.520 --> 1:55:39.360 and so we're now going to take a look at 1:55:39.440 --> 1:55:43.680 the actual impeachments of President Yun and the unbelievably bizarre 1:55:43.880 --> 1:55:47.760 path that led to it, because oh my god, the 1:55:47.840 --> 1:55:49.600 more I talk to people, the more I realize that 1:55:49.680 --> 1:55:54.080 people don't know how unbelievably unhinged everything has been since 1:55:54.160 --> 1:55:56.320 since the military coup, because everyone has moved on. So 1:55:56.480 --> 1:55:59.840 we're going back. So immediately after the coup, there is 1:56:00.000 --> 1:56:02.800 this whole wave of military guys going like we didn't 1:56:02.840 --> 1:56:06.400 know we were taking part in the coup, We're totally innocent, like, oh, 1:56:07.040 --> 1:56:08.800 they just let us out of the trucks and suddenly 1:56:08.880 --> 1:56:10.160 we were at the National Assembly. 1:56:10.400 --> 1:56:11.840 We were like, oh, what are we doing? 1:56:12.480 --> 1:56:14.240 And there's also been this whole thing of all these 1:56:14.280 --> 1:56:17.200 special forces guys going like oh yeah, no, no, yeah, 1:56:17.200 --> 1:56:19.800 we totally could have taken the National Assembly in twenty 1:56:19.840 --> 1:56:22.400 minutes if we wanted to. We just we just like 1:56:22.680 --> 1:56:25.480 didn't want to take a National Assembly, Like we didn't 1:56:25.480 --> 1:56:26.840 we didn't really want to do it, man. 1:56:26.800 --> 1:56:28.360 Like our heart wasn't in this coup. 1:56:28.640 --> 1:56:32.440 And like, really, I have seen the videos of that shit, man, 1:56:32.600 --> 1:56:34.520 Like I didn't see you like going in there and 1:56:34.600 --> 1:56:36.560 kicking ass and taking names. I saw you getting your 1:56:36.600 --> 1:56:39.560 ass kicked by a guy just like blowing your ass 1:56:39.640 --> 1:56:42.400 up with a fire extinguisher and like not being able 1:56:42.440 --> 1:56:44.960 to break a bunch of very well constructive barricades set 1:56:45.000 --> 1:56:49.240 up by like fucking Senate aids. So that's been extremely funny. 1:56:49.800 --> 1:56:52.680 So you like vanished for the entire time this coup 1:56:52.760 --> 1:56:54.840 was going on, and like nobody knew where he was 1:56:55.000 --> 1:56:58.520 and no one had seen him and things were kind 1:56:58.560 --> 1:56:59.680 of fiasco e. 1:57:00.320 --> 1:57:01.040 He was just gone. 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:05.800 So he finally like reappeared, right and as he sort 1:57:05.800 --> 1:57:09.600 of reappears, he tries to like do this explanation of 1:57:09.760 --> 1:57:12.840 why he did the coup. It goes about as badly 1:57:12.880 --> 1:57:14.840 as you would expect from someone who just failed the 1:57:14.880 --> 1:57:18.880 worst coup that we've ever seen. Here's from MPR quote. 1:57:19.200 --> 1:57:22.800 In his speech on Thursday June, a former chief prosecutor 1:57:22.840 --> 1:57:26.520 attempted to justify his actions and downplay its significance. He 1:57:26.800 --> 1:57:31.560 argued that the opposition's quote legislative dictatorship unquote paralyzed state 1:57:31.600 --> 1:57:35.320 affairs and disturb social order. Now this, this is going 1:57:35.400 --> 1:57:38.040 back to the thing you know he did at the time. Right, 1:57:38.760 --> 1:57:40.879 he has this thing where he keeps calling the Parliament, 1:57:40.920 --> 1:57:42.920 which is controlled by the Democratic Party, which is like 1:57:42.920 --> 1:57:46.520 the liberal opposition party. He kept calling the parliaments like 1:57:46.680 --> 1:57:51.080 opposition anti state forces, and like, my brother in Christ, 1:57:51.280 --> 1:57:55.400 what the fuck is a legislative dictatorship? I mean, like, 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:58.320 you know, you could be really strictly anarchist about it 1:57:58.400 --> 1:58:01.840 and be like, well, yeah, all legislative dictatorships, but my dude, 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:06.480 you are not living under a dictatorship because the parliament 1:58:06.520 --> 1:58:08.880 that your country elected hates you and refuses to pass 1:58:08.920 --> 1:58:11.920 your dogship budget because no one likes you. That is 1:58:12.120 --> 1:58:15.920 simply not what the word dictatorship means. It reminds me 1:58:15.960 --> 1:58:17.920 of this thing where like, you know, if if you 1:58:18.000 --> 1:58:21.040 go back and you read like people in the eighteen 1:58:21.160 --> 1:58:24.240 hundreds talking about or like eight like seventeen hundreds too, 1:58:24.360 --> 1:58:28.760 you'll read them talking about monarchies, right, and they'll be like, Ah, 1:58:28.920 --> 1:58:31.920 if the king can like overrule the will of the nobles, 1:58:32.000 --> 1:58:34.040 we would be living in a peer dictatorship. It's like, 1:58:34.480 --> 1:58:37.080 what the fuck are you talking about? Like Surri, you 1:58:37.160 --> 1:58:39.880 live under a monarchy, like you are already in a dictatorship. 1:58:39.920 --> 1:58:42.400 You are also like part of the authoritary and aprahas 1:58:42.440 --> 1:58:44.080 of the dictatorship, and this is just like the inverse 1:58:44.160 --> 1:58:46.960 of that where it's like, ah, the legislature won't let 1:58:47.040 --> 1:58:49.160 me do whatever the fuck I want, so this is 1:58:49.240 --> 1:58:54.320 now a dictatorship. And so like you know, that's simply 1:58:54.440 --> 1:58:57.240 not what the word dictatorship means. And you can't get 1:58:57.240 --> 1:59:00.200 away with that shit as much in a country where 1:59:00.240 --> 1:59:03.200 people like in living memory have lived through an actual 1:59:03.240 --> 1:59:07.360 military dictatorship and understand what that's like. The parliament refusing 1:59:07.440 --> 1:59:10.200 to pass your terrible budget, that's not an excuse to 1:59:10.360 --> 1:59:13.840 institute martial law and try to shut down the legislature. 1:59:14.600 --> 1:59:18.240 So this was not received well as you would expect 1:59:18.480 --> 1:59:22.400 from whatever unhinged speech that was. He did apologize for 1:59:22.480 --> 1:59:25.960 imposing martial law, which is a very funny place to 1:59:26.160 --> 1:59:27.880 end up, is like you try to do a coup 1:59:27.880 --> 1:59:29.880 and then you have to go on TV and apologize 1:59:29.920 --> 1:59:31.560 for trying to do the coup and also try to 1:59:31.680 --> 1:59:34.560 argue you didn't just try to do a coup. So 1:59:34.720 --> 1:59:38.080 this is received very poorly, as we sort of predicted, immediately, 1:59:38.400 --> 1:59:41.320 the opposition Democratic Party immediately tries to impeach you. And 1:59:42.360 --> 1:59:44.520 from the way the headlines kind of work in the West, 1:59:44.560 --> 1:59:46.080 and from the way this is being talked about, and 1:59:46.160 --> 1:59:48.640 even from the way this episode sort of opened, you'd 1:59:48.720 --> 1:59:52.000 think that this impeachment vote was how we got impeached. 1:59:52.400 --> 1:59:56.240 But no, no, the first impeachment vote is not how 1:59:56.400 --> 2:00:01.880 Un gets impeached. Everything is way weirder than that. Now 2:00:02.840 --> 2:00:06.200 Yun's party, the People's Power Party, which is henceforth going 2:00:06.240 --> 2:00:08.120 to be called the PPP because I am not going 2:00:08.200 --> 2:00:10.760 to say the words People Power Party over and over again. 2:00:10.840 --> 2:00:11.280 Good lord. 2:00:11.920 --> 2:00:14.280 The PPP get a lot of credit from people outside 2:00:14.280 --> 2:00:16.400 of South Korea for like, you know, some of their 2:00:16.440 --> 2:00:20.040 members legitimately did show up to Parliament to vote against 2:00:20.080 --> 2:00:23.000 the martial law declaration, and at the time in the 2:00:23.080 --> 2:00:25.520 last episode, I said, that's bullshit. You don't get credit 2:00:25.600 --> 2:00:28.480 for voting against martial law. And also like most of 2:00:28.560 --> 2:00:32.080 them weren't there, and I kind of got shipped for this, 2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:36.320 And I have been absolutely one hundred percent vindicated because 2:00:36.640 --> 2:00:38.720 the piece are vote, the first one rolls around, The 2:00:38.720 --> 2:00:42.320 first one happens very quickly after the first coup, right, well, 2:00:42.360 --> 2:00:44.560 the first QUP hopefully the only coup, hopefully is not 2:00:44.600 --> 2:00:47.440 a second cue, but it happens very quickly, and Okay, 2:00:47.480 --> 2:00:50.120 so the vote rolls around, and the entire PPP, the 2:00:50.360 --> 2:00:54.480 entire party except maybe like two people just walk out 2:00:54.520 --> 2:00:56.880 of the chambers, and because they walk out of the chambers, 2:00:56.920 --> 2:00:58.960 the vote fails because they don't they don't have quorum. 2:00:59.000 --> 2:01:00.800 If you don't have quorum, is like there's like a 2:01:00.880 --> 2:01:03.080 minimum number of members that has to be in attendance 2:01:03.280 --> 2:01:06.000 for whatever you're doing to be legal to stop like 2:01:06.040 --> 2:01:07.440 two people from showing up in the middle of the 2:01:07.520 --> 2:01:09.720 night and being like, aha, i am the Parliament. We've 2:01:09.760 --> 2:01:12.760 just passed this like order that makes me dictator or whatever. 2:01:13.920 --> 2:01:17.640 And again the entire PPP just walks out and they leave, 2:01:17.800 --> 2:01:20.040 and the vote fails because the PPP managed to whip 2:01:20.120 --> 2:01:23.920 basically its entire membership into trying to keep Uni in power. 2:01:33.480 --> 2:01:36.480 And here begins the what the fuck is going on 2:01:36.720 --> 2:01:39.760 part of this episode because A all reports we have 2:01:40.000 --> 2:01:42.120 suggest that Yun was planning to have the leadership, but 2:01:42.200 --> 2:01:46.160 the PPP arrested, and B he just literally tried to 2:01:46.200 --> 2:01:49.280 do a coup and they're still backing him. And see 2:01:49.520 --> 2:01:52.800 we stumble into a very very thorty question that I 2:01:53.200 --> 2:01:56.160 saw from people in Korea, like the moment after all 2:01:56.200 --> 2:01:58.440 this stuff happens, but didn't really hit the western press 2:01:58.520 --> 2:02:01.640 until later, if at all, didn't really hit like the 2:02:01.760 --> 2:02:04.880 mainstream consciousness. And this question will become a parent in 2:02:04.920 --> 2:02:08.760 a second. So here's from the Guardian. Senior PPP politicians 2:02:08.800 --> 2:02:12.440 have claimed you can continue as president while delegating his 2:02:12.600 --> 2:02:16.280 powers to the Prime Minister. An arrangement Park. That's Park 2:02:16.320 --> 2:02:19.520 Schoon Day, who's a very powerful Democratic Party politician. An 2:02:19.600 --> 2:02:23.800 arrangement Park described as quote a blatant constitutional violation. 2:02:23.640 --> 2:02:26.520 With no legal basis. Now this is true. 2:02:26.680 --> 2:02:29.720 What Park is saying is right, right, and the fact 2:02:29.760 --> 2:02:32.320 that the Guardian is saying like that their way of 2:02:32.360 --> 2:02:36.680 framing this is Oh, the opposition party person says that 2:02:36.800 --> 2:02:39.920 this is a blatant violation of constitutional law with no 2:02:40.080 --> 2:02:42.720 legal basis. That's not just a thing that he says, like, 2:02:42.800 --> 2:02:46.280 this is true, Like there is no legal mechanism for well, 2:02:46.360 --> 2:02:49.080 we don't want to impeach our presidents. But also he 2:02:49.200 --> 2:02:50.960 just tried to do a coup, so is said, we're 2:02:50.960 --> 2:02:52.320 going to take his powers away and give it to 2:02:52.320 --> 2:02:54.040 the Prime minister so he can still serve without us 2:02:54.040 --> 2:02:56.000 impeaching him. Like, that's not a thing. You can't do this, 2:02:56.320 --> 2:02:59.440 there's no mechanism for this. The Democratic Party people are 2:02:59.520 --> 2:03:02.080 just completely correct here. But because for some reason the 2:03:02.080 --> 2:03:04.040 Guardian feels it, I mean, it's the Guardian right, like, 2:03:04.080 --> 2:03:06.800 but they feel it necessary to sort of both sides again, 2:03:06.920 --> 2:03:07.720 a fucking coup. 2:03:08.400 --> 2:03:12.600 This is where we are. Here's more from the Guardian quote. 2:03:12.720 --> 2:03:16.560 The leader of the PPP, Hondung Hun, said at the 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:19.360 weekend that Yun would not be involved in foreign and 2:03:19.480 --> 2:03:22.920 other state affairs, with control of the administration shifting to 2:03:23.000 --> 2:03:27.760 the Prime Minister. Hon Duk su Han said Yun's televised 2:03:27.800 --> 2:03:30.520 apology was effectively a promise to leave office. 2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:31.760 Now, no, it wasn't. 2:03:32.240 --> 2:03:33.880 It was not a promise to leave office. 2:03:34.040 --> 2:03:36.120 What the fuck are you talking about? Like, everyone could 2:03:36.160 --> 2:03:38.080 just go listen to his apology. He didn't say that. 2:03:38.160 --> 2:03:40.160 He did not say he was gonna leave office, right 2:03:40.440 --> 2:03:42.520 and no, hell he says it's effectively a promise to 2:03:42.600 --> 2:03:43.040 leave office. 2:03:43.040 --> 2:03:43.960 But it simply isn't. 2:03:44.080 --> 2:03:44.200 Right. 2:03:44.240 --> 2:03:47.640 Everyone could just see this and again, like you know, okay, So, 2:03:47.720 --> 2:03:49.400 like the thing that the thing that the PvP is 2:03:49.440 --> 2:03:51.640 trying to do, right, the BVP is trying to have 2:03:52.320 --> 2:03:55.880 their prime minister like gain control of of the administration. Now, 2:03:56.240 --> 2:03:58.760 there is a mechanism to do this under the constitution. 2:03:58.880 --> 2:04:01.560 It's called impeachment. I think it happens where you get impeached, 2:04:01.720 --> 2:04:01.920 is that. 2:04:01.960 --> 2:04:03.000 You get kicked out of office. 2:04:03.080 --> 2:04:04.520 As we're gonna get to this later, but you get 2:04:04.560 --> 2:04:06.400 kicked out of office and the prime minister gets put 2:04:06.440 --> 2:04:09.480 into power and this happens until this pre court decides 2:04:09.520 --> 2:04:12.320 whether whether whether your impeachment should go through it or not. Right, So, 2:04:12.480 --> 2:04:14.680 like there's a mechanism for this, but the PvP doesn't 2:04:14.720 --> 2:04:17.920 want to like impeach union, but they also don't want 2:04:18.040 --> 2:04:21.080 him seemingly running the country because he appears to be 2:04:21.360 --> 2:04:24.400 like absolutely unhinged and just again declared martial law and 2:04:24.480 --> 2:04:25.720 tried to knock off the legislature. 2:04:26.040 --> 2:04:28.120 So you have this, you have this whole sort of 2:04:28.760 --> 2:04:29.919 steaming mess. 2:04:29.720 --> 2:04:31.520 Of a situation where the PvP is trying to like 2:04:31.600 --> 2:04:34.720 have it both ways of like not having union power 2:04:34.800 --> 2:04:38.560 but also not impeaching him. But this also begs one 2:04:39.240 --> 2:04:44.080 very important question, whula fuck was running the country between 2:04:44.600 --> 2:04:45.120 the first. 2:04:44.960 --> 2:04:48.280 Appiachment vote and the second one. No one knows, No 2:04:48.360 --> 2:04:50.040 one knows who was running this fucking country. 2:04:50.240 --> 2:04:52.680 This is a country with fifty one million people, and 2:04:52.800 --> 2:04:55.720 nobody knew who was fucking running the country. And this 2:04:56.160 --> 2:05:00.200 this barely made the news. I'm going insane, How how, why? 2:05:00.520 --> 2:05:03.080 Why is this a thing that just like completely disappeared 2:05:03.120 --> 2:05:05.480 beneath the fucking like chatter of the news waves. This 2:05:05.680 --> 2:05:10.880 just vanished entirely. And speaking of vanishing entirely, we were 2:05:10.960 --> 2:05:15.560 gonna vanish entirely to do these ads. 2:05:25.520 --> 2:05:28.160 And we are back. 2:05:28.880 --> 2:05:31.760 So, as you would imagine from a situation where again 2:05:31.840 --> 2:05:35.080 you have a country, you're fifty one million people, where 2:05:35.320 --> 2:05:38.200 no one knows who is running the country, things have 2:05:38.400 --> 2:05:41.520 been extremely chaotic. So you know, we covered in the 2:05:41.600 --> 2:05:44.080 last episode that like a bunch of ministers were resigning, 2:05:44.240 --> 2:05:47.240 right because you know, they had just taken part in 2:05:47.280 --> 2:05:50.080 a coup and they were like, well, shit, the ex 2:05:50.160 --> 2:05:52.120 defense minister, who's one of the people who's been sort 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:55.560 of implicated as being like saying that he's to a 2:05:55.640 --> 2:05:57.720 large step behind the coup, like is true. But I mean, 2:05:57.720 --> 2:06:01.720 this is a cooperative effort between un the Defense minister 2:06:02.000 --> 2:06:03.600 and a bunch of the people in the army, and 2:06:03.760 --> 2:06:06.560 the defense minister who resigned in disgrace like got thrown 2:06:06.600 --> 2:06:10.880 in jail. So that's fucking wild, Like you just got 2:06:11.040 --> 2:06:14.840 like arrested by the police. A bunch of testimony also 2:06:14.880 --> 2:06:18.240 has come out from the National Assembly investigation, which I'm 2:06:18.280 --> 2:06:22.360 not covering much of the testimony from the National Assembly 2:06:22.920 --> 2:06:28.960 investigation because it's really unclear exactly how reputable all this 2:06:29.040 --> 2:06:33.840 stuff is because a lot of people are just saying shit, right, 2:06:34.480 --> 2:06:36.520 and some of it may be real. Some of it 2:06:36.600 --> 2:06:39.120 maybe some of that people have you know, obtained their sources, 2:06:39.320 --> 2:06:43.240 but some of it's probably not. But like to get 2:06:43.280 --> 2:06:45.480 a sense of like the kind of stuff that is 2:06:45.560 --> 2:06:48.839 coming out in this investigation, one of the big claims 2:06:49.040 --> 2:06:50.960 was from I think it's from like a TV host 2:06:51.000 --> 2:06:53.680 who claimed he got texted it by a guy in 2:06:53.720 --> 2:06:56.720 the army, but apparently he was saying that the plan 2:06:57.000 --> 2:06:58.720 by union in the army, the plan was to have 2:06:58.920 --> 2:07:02.560 the head of the PPP called and then drop a 2:07:02.840 --> 2:07:06.480 North Korean uniform nearby to like do a false flag 2:07:06.560 --> 2:07:14.880 and implicate North Korean special forces. Now this is unbelievably unhinged, right, 2:07:15.440 --> 2:07:20.280 what the fuck? And it probably isn't true, but you know, 2:07:20.360 --> 2:07:23.960 the source isn't great, But like who knows, right, Like, 2:07:24.040 --> 2:07:26.120 we don't actually know if they're playing to do this 2:07:26.200 --> 2:07:27.680 and fucked it up, or if they weren't playing to 2:07:27.760 --> 2:07:29.800 do this, or if this person is this person just lying, 2:07:29.840 --> 2:07:33.000 this person did get this text, but the person was misinformed. 2:07:33.040 --> 2:07:34.880 We don't know if this is just like misinformation that's 2:07:34.880 --> 2:07:38.080 being spread around. This is a good demonstration of what 2:07:38.320 --> 2:07:42.800 the sort of chaos of this moment has been. And 2:07:43.040 --> 2:07:44.840 you know, and there's been a lot of other stuff 2:07:44.880 --> 2:07:48.839 that I think in any other time and place probably 2:07:49.000 --> 2:07:53.160 would have been like front page news. So one of 2:07:53.480 --> 2:07:55.280 the things that happens in this whole process is that 2:07:55.360 --> 2:07:57.920 the South Korean police tried to raid the house of 2:07:58.000 --> 2:08:01.040 the president, and you know, like as as part of 2:08:01.080 --> 2:08:04.560 their investigation, there's a whole thing where Union's been ordered 2:08:04.720 --> 2:08:07.920 by like the investigatorial services to not leave the country 2:08:08.320 --> 2:08:11.720 because he's just actively under investigation for this military coup 2:08:11.840 --> 2:08:15.040 being illegal by just like the regular ass police. And 2:08:15.120 --> 2:08:17.080 so South Korean police like try to raid his house 2:08:17.320 --> 2:08:19.720 and they can't do it because the South Korean equivalent 2:08:19.760 --> 2:08:22.000 of the Secret Service stops them from doing the raid. 2:08:22.680 --> 2:08:25.560 And this in and of itself is something that like 2:08:25.800 --> 2:08:30.760 again would be a giant news headline at any other 2:08:30.840 --> 2:08:33.160 point in time, and it's just been completely lost, and 2:08:33.240 --> 2:08:37.000 it's like it's not sort of clear right now how 2:08:37.280 --> 2:08:40.200 this is all sort of going to play out, and 2:08:40.360 --> 2:08:42.320 whether the police are going to be able to do this, 2:08:42.680 --> 2:08:45.760 and you know, what's actually gonna happen to you un 2:08:46.040 --> 2:08:48.320 after he presumably leaves office. I mean, I guess the 2:08:48.360 --> 2:08:51.400 Streme Court could save him, but like, you know, there's 2:08:51.440 --> 2:08:53.480 a real chance that he and we're going to get 2:08:53.480 --> 2:08:55.120 into this morning a second, there's a real chance that 2:08:55.320 --> 2:08:58.320 he just like fucking goes to prison, right and unlike 2:08:58.360 --> 2:08:59.960 the last president who was going to move from office, 2:09:00.400 --> 2:09:03.680 like I can't imagine him getting pardoned by the next 2:09:03.720 --> 2:09:08.560 administration because that was merely an unhinged corruption scandal involving 2:09:08.600 --> 2:09:12.520 the president of South Korea being under the influence of 2:09:12.560 --> 2:09:14.240 a shaman and doing. 2:09:14.080 --> 2:09:16.600 A bunch of corruption that did a bunch of horrible shit. 2:09:16.880 --> 2:09:20.800 But this is, you know, this is like he tried 2:09:20.840 --> 2:09:23.680 to do a coup, right, So it's sort of unclear 2:09:23.800 --> 2:09:25.440 if he's going to get saved from that. It does 2:09:25.520 --> 2:09:28.720 seem very likely that he's going to face a bunch 2:09:28.760 --> 2:09:31.880 of charges for this because everyone is unbelievably pissed off. 2:09:32.960 --> 2:09:37.200 Here's from DW. On Monday, former head of Special Warfare 2:09:37.280 --> 2:09:41.440 Command Kwak Jung Gwyn and former head of the Capitol 2:09:41.520 --> 2:09:46.000 Defense Command Legion Wu were arrested on charges of deploying 2:09:46.720 --> 2:09:50.839 military personnel to the parliament. Former chief of the Defense 2:09:50.960 --> 2:09:55.800 Counterintelligence Command Yo En Hung has been accused of orchestrating 2:09:55.840 --> 2:09:59.480 the implementation of martial law, and Army Chief Park Ensiu 2:09:59.600 --> 2:10:03.200 has been s suspended from his role. Yun's former Defense 2:10:03.280 --> 2:10:06.920 Minister Kim Yung hyun, who stepped down immediately following the 2:10:07.200 --> 2:10:11.080 boarded martial law declaration, and former Interior Minister Lee Song 2:10:11.200 --> 2:10:15.560 Men also face investigations. So what we're seeing here effectively, right, 2:10:15.720 --> 2:10:17.760 is the house cleaning of the ranks of the Korean 2:10:17.800 --> 2:10:20.160 military who've been involved with this whole thing, right, and 2:10:20.240 --> 2:10:23.360 they're going through a lot of different people. Part of 2:10:23.400 --> 2:10:25.839 this is also clearing out some of like the clicks 2:10:25.880 --> 2:10:29.400 in the military who've been sort of backing Yun and 2:10:29.440 --> 2:10:32.400 who people have suspected have been a bunch of people 2:10:32.480 --> 2:10:33.400 behind a lot. 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:37.520 Of this stuff. And this is a good and necessary process. 2:10:37.600 --> 2:10:40.000 The entire time this has been going on, everyone has 2:10:40.040 --> 2:10:43.360 been terrified of the possibility of a second coup and 2:10:43.520 --> 2:10:45.600 the only way to avoid that in the short term 2:10:45.720 --> 2:10:48.640 is to remove the senior leadership of the military and 2:10:48.920 --> 2:10:50.800 get them away from their troops. They don't have the 2:10:50.880 --> 2:10:53.400 ability to sort of plan anything, and sometimes this can 2:10:53.440 --> 2:10:55.920 make people just go for it, right Like that, that's 2:10:55.960 --> 2:11:00.440 what happens in Bolivia. It looks like where the oblivion 2:11:00.520 --> 2:11:02.320 qu was a product of, you know, people trying to 2:11:02.400 --> 2:11:04.880 do house cleaning and get rid of military guys before 2:11:04.920 --> 2:11:06.680 they did a coup, and so that this makes them 2:11:06.720 --> 2:11:10.360 go off half cocked, and like, you know, that's a 2:11:10.480 --> 2:11:12.760 bad situation for I mean, it's bad situation for everyone 2:11:12.800 --> 2:11:14.160 that says that there's a coup happening, but it's a 2:11:14.160 --> 2:11:17.320 bad situation, especially for the military, because they don't have 2:11:17.440 --> 2:11:20.160 their coup preparations in place, so it's easier to knock 2:11:20.240 --> 2:11:23.240 them off. But what's interesting about this too is that 2:11:23.320 --> 2:11:25.800 to a large extent, we're seeing other parts of the 2:11:25.920 --> 2:11:30.960 Korean state like really go after the military, right, And 2:11:31.680 --> 2:11:33.920 this I don't know, I mean, like I'm hoping this 2:11:34.120 --> 2:11:38.040 kind of like has a precedent inside of the sort 2:11:38.080 --> 2:11:41.640 of Korean like liberal democratic societal norms that like, you 2:11:42.120 --> 2:11:48.240 can't let this just unhinged military do all of this stuff. 2:11:48.920 --> 2:11:51.520 That the precedent of this sort of like military house cleaning, 2:11:51.680 --> 2:11:54.760 I think is a good one, Right, this is. 2:11:54.800 --> 2:11:56.800 Going to be a rare, a rare. 2:11:57.000 --> 2:12:00.960 Mia agrees with the people who founded the US moment 2:12:01.080 --> 2:12:03.800 because oh my god, those people suck shit like a 2:12:03.840 --> 2:12:06.960 bunch of slave owning, gedicidal bassards. But you know, one 2:12:06.960 --> 2:12:08.880 of the things that they were right about is the 2:12:08.960 --> 2:12:13.480 political danger to any democratic system of having a standing army, right, 2:12:14.120 --> 2:12:16.680 and especially when you have set a standing army that's 2:12:16.720 --> 2:12:18.880 like permanently on a semi war footing. The way the 2:12:18.920 --> 2:12:22.360 South Korea is is there's always a real political risk 2:12:22.440 --> 2:12:25.360 that they attempt to seize power and you have to 2:12:25.480 --> 2:12:29.080 fucking stop them from doing that. And ideally you just 2:12:29.280 --> 2:12:32.000 fucking acts as much of it as you possibly can, right, 2:12:32.040 --> 2:12:33.560 And I mean I think you should act. You acts 2:12:33.560 --> 2:12:35.440 the entire political system to make sure this doesn't happen. 2:12:35.920 --> 2:12:38.120 But you know, this is a this is hopefully a 2:12:38.200 --> 2:12:41.240 good first step. I also want to mention that the 2:12:41.400 --> 2:12:44.480 specific charge of insurrection is being thrown at a lot 2:12:44.520 --> 2:12:48.040 of these people and also at Un himself, and like 2:12:48.680 --> 2:12:52.520 he absolutely did it, right, Like, there's not much of 2:12:52.520 --> 2:12:56.920 a dispute that he did in fact do an insurrection 2:12:57.160 --> 2:12:59.880 under under sort of Korean law, and this technically like 2:13:00.240 --> 2:13:01.920 carries the death penalty, but I. 2:13:02.560 --> 2:13:03.720 Don't think they're gonna kill him. 2:13:03.760 --> 2:13:07.040 But you know, this is the sort of severity of 2:13:07.520 --> 2:13:11.600 this stuff under the Korean legal system. And Okay, so, 2:13:11.760 --> 2:13:14.160 like all of this fucking chaos happening, right, And eventually 2:13:14.200 --> 2:13:17.880 there's a second impeachment vote, and this time the public 2:13:17.960 --> 2:13:21.480 pressure is enough that the PPP stays in the chamber 2:13:21.560 --> 2:13:26.240 to vote no, and only about a dozen Like per MPR, 2:13:26.360 --> 2:13:30.040 only about a dozen PPP lawmakers actually vote to impeach 2:13:30.120 --> 2:13:33.520 the guy who just tried to have their fucking parliament disbanded, 2:13:34.440 --> 2:13:36.000 you know. And this is like one of the really 2:13:36.040 --> 2:13:38.600 depressing things about this, right, even after everything, right, and 2:13:38.680 --> 2:13:40.960 this is something that we can trace back to sort 2:13:40.960 --> 2:13:44.640 of the roots of the conservatism of the PPP even 2:13:44.720 --> 2:13:47.400 after all of this shit, right, Like, these people still 2:13:47.480 --> 2:13:53.200 backed him. And that's a really really grim and depressing thing. 2:13:54.360 --> 2:13:56.080 And part of the reaction to this has been from 2:13:56.120 --> 2:13:58.200 the South Korean trade Union Movement, which has been calling 2:13:58.240 --> 2:14:00.360 for just to straight up the disbanding of the PPP 2:14:00.440 --> 2:14:03.400 as a political party, right, And that's something that I 2:14:03.440 --> 2:14:07.360 think is extremely reasonable. Again, if your party's president tries 2:14:07.440 --> 2:14:09.960 to do a military coup, I think I think you 2:14:09.960 --> 2:14:11.960 shouldn't be allowed to have a party anymore. 2:14:12.480 --> 2:14:16.000 This is the liberal opinions, right, Okay. 2:14:16.040 --> 2:14:20.880 So like eventually this vote does go through, and the 2:14:20.960 --> 2:14:23.040 stage that we're at right now is that, Okay, so 2:14:23.160 --> 2:14:26.400 once you get impeached by the National Assembly, you're suspended 2:14:26.440 --> 2:14:29.320 from all your duties and the Prime Minister takes power. 2:14:29.640 --> 2:14:31.560 So it's happening right now is he doesn't have any 2:14:31.680 --> 2:14:34.920 power formally, but we're still in this sort of holding period. 2:14:35.040 --> 2:14:37.000 We're waiting for the Supreme Court to weigh in and 2:14:37.120 --> 2:14:41.040 either like approve the impeachment or not. And that's kind 2:14:41.040 --> 2:14:45.800 of where things stand now after an unbelievably unhinged week 2:14:45.840 --> 2:14:50.680 at a half of just everything being extremely unboud two weeks, 2:14:50.720 --> 2:14:55.680 I guess everything being just unbelievably extremely weird. And yeah, 2:14:55.760 --> 2:14:58.840 but I think I think there is a mild hopeful note, 2:14:58.920 --> 2:15:01.120 which is that like, if if you fight back against 2:15:01.160 --> 2:15:04.280 these people, they can be defeated. It sucks, but you 2:15:04.360 --> 2:15:07.840 can eventually get them to crumble. And all I can 2:15:07.920 --> 2:15:09.960 really say for this is I hope the South Korean 2:15:10.000 --> 2:15:14.400 people prevail over the shitty military dictators, and I hope 2:15:14.600 --> 2:15:18.280 that we too are able to sort of prevail in 2:15:18.400 --> 2:15:21.120 the US against our sort of equivalents of these forces. 2:15:42.560 --> 2:15:44.800 Welcome to It could happen here a podcast that I 2:15:44.880 --> 2:15:46.480 introduced the same way almost every time. 2:15:46.520 --> 2:15:46.840 I don't know. 2:15:46.920 --> 2:15:50.040 You listen to the show, right, you're listening at like 2:15:50.920 --> 2:15:53.640 some point in the future, you probably know the things 2:15:53.680 --> 2:15:55.480 fall like apart putting back together again intro. 2:15:55.760 --> 2:15:56.400 I don't have to do it. 2:15:56.880 --> 2:15:58.960 We are doing something that we have done before, and 2:15:59.000 --> 2:16:00.880 I guess we'll continue to you, which is talking to 2:16:01.000 --> 2:16:05.040 other anarchist media projects about their work and how things 2:16:05.080 --> 2:16:05.840 are going, and. 2:16:06.840 --> 2:16:10.560 Yeah, the general why, how what of it all? 2:16:11.120 --> 2:16:14.160 And today we're talking with the Collective Anarchist Writers, and 2:16:14.440 --> 2:16:17.520 very specifically we're talking to Shirley Branson who is a writer, 2:16:17.720 --> 2:16:21.000 translator and teacher currently living in so called New York, 2:16:21.600 --> 2:16:24.520 Parla Joy Bergman who lives across the border in Canada 2:16:24.600 --> 2:16:27.000 and is a mom, writer, artist and loves crows. 2:16:27.240 --> 2:16:27.760 Very important. 2:16:27.800 --> 2:16:29.280 We'll be coming that back to that in a second. 2:16:29.720 --> 2:16:33.080 And Vicky Ostiwil, who is a worker, writer and agitator 2:16:33.120 --> 2:16:35.320 based in Philadelphia. And all three of you, welcome to 2:16:35.400 --> 2:16:35.680 the show. 2:16:36.040 --> 2:16:38.840 Hi, thanks for having us, Thanks so much for having us, 2:16:38.959 --> 2:16:42.320 for having us, love our project. Also, just wanted to 2:16:42.760 --> 2:16:45.199 give a shout out to our fourth member, Danny Berlison, 2:16:45.200 --> 2:16:49.119 who's not here today because she's working paid work, who 2:16:49.320 --> 2:16:52.520 just rounds us out so beautifully and wanted to say 2:16:52.560 --> 2:16:52.920 her name. 2:16:53.560 --> 2:16:56.119 Yeah, I'm excited to talk about this, and partly I'm 2:16:56.160 --> 2:16:59.360 excited to talk about it because the acronym for this 2:16:59.520 --> 2:17:02.040 is caw and there's a whole crow theme going on 2:17:02.360 --> 2:17:05.320 and we love a crow here in Portland. It is 2:17:05.640 --> 2:17:06.520 maybe our big thing. 2:17:07.560 --> 2:17:10.640 Yeah, I'm in Vancouver. Well I was in Vancouver just 2:17:10.760 --> 2:17:14.720 up from there, but Pacific Northwest, and so it's pro highway. 2:17:14.920 --> 2:17:16.959 You know, thousands and thousands of crows. 2:17:17.560 --> 2:17:19.800 Oh yeah, I got it. I think the crow is 2:17:19.920 --> 2:17:24.279 like what ultimately sealed the project for us, honestly, Yeah, hell. 2:17:24.240 --> 2:17:24.920 Yeah it was. 2:17:25.200 --> 2:17:28.640 It really came together around around the Corvid theme, I think. 2:17:28.760 --> 2:17:28.960 Yeah. 2:17:29.120 --> 2:17:33.359 Yeah, in the combination of enjoying shiny things, extreme intelligence, 2:17:33.440 --> 2:17:35.640 and never ending spite, I think are all sort of 2:17:35.720 --> 2:17:36.600 motivating factors for. 2:17:36.600 --> 2:17:37.040 All of us. 2:17:37.120 --> 2:17:41.560 So yeah, and that there are collective and have meetings 2:17:41.760 --> 2:17:42.720 often throughout. 2:17:42.440 --> 2:17:46.040 The day, a collective called a murder which is also 2:17:46.120 --> 2:17:46.840 pretty badass. 2:17:49.200 --> 2:17:51.800 Yeah, there's a huge thing in Portland. We have the 2:17:51.840 --> 2:17:52.480 Mega Murder. 2:17:53.040 --> 2:17:55.800 So every every like morning, all the crows sort of 2:17:55.800 --> 2:17:58.280 fly off into their different like little murders and they 2:17:58.360 --> 2:18:00.240 go you know, they go out and hang out in 2:18:00.280 --> 2:18:03.560 the city, and then at a round sunset every day, 2:18:03.720 --> 2:18:06.040 all of the crows fly back into the city. They 2:18:06.120 --> 2:18:08.760 have their like giant mega murdering meeting. There's thousands and 2:18:08.840 --> 2:18:10.480 thousands of them. You know, you look up and you 2:18:10.560 --> 2:18:13.000 just see them like the herds like that, the murders 2:18:13.000 --> 2:18:15.520 of crows flying past. And if you there's different spots 2:18:15.560 --> 2:18:17.400 in Portland where you can just go see all of 2:18:17.600 --> 2:18:21.760 the all all all the crows hanging out and you know, 2:18:21.920 --> 2:18:24.879 doing doing doing whatever the things crows do. When literally 2:18:24.959 --> 2:18:27.560 an entire cities where the crows gathered together every night. 2:18:27.640 --> 2:18:29.519 Oh no, it's a spokes council. 2:18:31.120 --> 2:18:31.200 But. 2:18:32.680 --> 2:18:34.760 It's all a spokes also because all of them are there, 2:18:35.560 --> 2:18:36.480 I feel like that's an assembly. 2:18:37.520 --> 2:18:38.360 Yeah yeah. 2:18:38.520 --> 2:18:43.200 Vancouver, it's called it's called the Crow Highway. Yeah, hell yeah, 2:18:43.440 --> 2:18:46.080 because it's so massive and goes forever and ever and 2:18:46.160 --> 2:18:51.120 ever to their roost. Brief story on crows and resistance. 2:18:51.560 --> 2:18:54.880 A really incredible story in Vancouver when a park was 2:18:55.640 --> 2:18:59.120 a colonial person created a park in the downtown which 2:18:59.280 --> 2:19:02.120 was like the placed a lot of Indigenous people in 2:19:02.200 --> 2:19:05.920 their homes and designed this park that was filled with 2:19:06.000 --> 2:19:09.440 crows as well. They also brought in animals from Europe 2:19:09.480 --> 2:19:12.760 as well to make it pretty, and the crows made 2:19:12.800 --> 2:19:16.960 it really hard for these animals. And so the City 2:19:17.080 --> 2:19:21.199 of Vancouver for fifty years from nineteen hundred to nineteen 2:19:21.280 --> 2:19:27.720 fifty gave free range to the Vancouver gun people to 2:19:27.840 --> 2:19:30.879 go into the park and shoot crows every day, Oh 2:19:30.959 --> 2:19:35.480 my god. And when I see like the amount of 2:19:35.560 --> 2:19:38.600 crows that are still alive, it's just some metaphor for 2:19:38.840 --> 2:19:42.280 indigenous resilience, you know, like it's just so powerful. So 2:19:42.360 --> 2:19:45.960 it's another reason why I'm like interested in terms of 2:19:46.000 --> 2:19:47.560 where I was like living. 2:19:47.920 --> 2:19:50.720 As I've been gathering images for our project that I've 2:19:50.800 --> 2:19:55.680 been specifically trying to find images of crows attacking people 2:19:56.040 --> 2:19:58.720 because I think that's good. So it's like, you know, 2:19:58.920 --> 2:20:01.000 the follow up to what you were saying, Carla, is 2:20:01.080 --> 2:20:02.360 the crow's revenge. 2:20:03.120 --> 2:20:03.280 Yes. 2:20:04.680 --> 2:20:04.840 Yeah. 2:20:04.920 --> 2:20:06.640 One of the things that you know, you kind of 2:20:06.680 --> 2:20:08.160 have to do here in Portland is you have to 2:20:08.280 --> 2:20:10.560 kind of like negotiate with the crows. You have to 2:20:10.680 --> 2:20:13.480 like you leave them like peace offerings and you sort 2:20:13.520 --> 2:20:16.040 of you know, when your friends come, you let you 2:20:16.120 --> 2:20:18.080 introduce them to the crows or the crows know that 2:20:18.160 --> 2:20:18.600 you're okay. 2:20:18.800 --> 2:20:20.640 It's very sweet, shiny things. 2:20:21.800 --> 2:20:23.959 Yeah, we love a crow based society. 2:20:24.000 --> 2:20:26.560 And speaking of a crow based society, yeah, do you 2:20:26.640 --> 2:20:28.920 want to, I guess, give a brief sort of overview 2:20:29.120 --> 2:20:31.959 of what cause is before we get sort. 2:20:31.760 --> 2:20:32.280 Of more into it. 2:20:33.040 --> 2:20:35.240 Yeah, I'm happy to take a spin at that. 2:20:35.360 --> 2:20:36.240 As VICKI by the way. 2:20:36.520 --> 2:20:38.280 Yeah, So CAU is sort of like I mean, it's 2:20:38.280 --> 2:20:41.400 an anarchist journal of arts and culture that is a 2:20:41.480 --> 2:20:45.119 collective of anarchist writers. It's also a corved appreciation working group, 2:20:45.160 --> 2:20:47.360 and there's a lot of different acronyms for it. And 2:20:48.160 --> 2:20:49.920 what we are doing is we are bringing all for 2:20:50.440 --> 2:20:53.520 at first, just all four of our efforts together. So 2:20:53.920 --> 2:20:56.120 a lot of us work on separate podcasts, We have 2:20:56.240 --> 2:20:59.640 pedagological tasks, We have many activist projects at center around culture. 2:21:00.120 --> 2:21:02.720 You know, I have a newsletter, Surely has a Patreon, 2:21:03.240 --> 2:21:06.600 Kyla has a newsletter, Danny has has also has like 2:21:06.600 --> 2:21:08.760 an email list. There's just all these different projects, and 2:21:09.840 --> 2:21:12.280 we realize that, like for all of our talk about 2:21:12.360 --> 2:21:15.480 mutual aid and working collectively, when it comes to writing 2:21:15.640 --> 2:21:19.760 and creativity, the market has been so fractured and so 2:21:19.920 --> 2:21:22.600 alienated and sort of so turned into like everyone has 2:21:22.600 --> 2:21:25.240 an individual newsletter that they're competing with one another, you know, 2:21:25.840 --> 2:21:27.360 even though they don't want to be like they want 2:21:27.400 --> 2:21:29.080 to be. But that's sort of ultimately what's happening is 2:21:29.120 --> 2:21:31.680 that there's limited sort of customers and there's also this 2:21:31.800 --> 2:21:35.040 other trend going on right now of this really exciting 2:21:35.120 --> 2:21:39.040 kind of worker owned journals. A lot of them local journalisms. 2:21:39.080 --> 2:21:41.200 There's some in New York and Chicago, and there's one 2:21:41.240 --> 2:21:43.640 in Ashville and all over the country as well as 2:21:43.680 --> 2:21:46.039 like on special topics, so like Aftermath, which like does 2:21:46.120 --> 2:21:47.680 I think the other video games, and there's four or 2:21:47.720 --> 2:21:49.760 four media, it does tech. There's just like all these 2:21:49.800 --> 2:21:52.080 different sort of sites doing this sort of thing, and 2:21:52.160 --> 2:21:53.560 I think in some ways all of us are sort 2:21:53.560 --> 2:21:56.360 of collectively reinventing the newspapers that have been sort of 2:21:56.440 --> 2:21:59.480 stolen and destroyed by capital, you know, in a big way. 2:21:59.640 --> 2:21:59.840 Yeah. 2:22:00.360 --> 2:22:01.880 So there's sort of two goals that we have, and 2:22:01.920 --> 2:22:04.480 I think Carla Carla speaks really eloquently to some of this, 2:22:04.640 --> 2:22:08.640 but one of which is to make writing radical culture 2:22:08.720 --> 2:22:13.480 work beautiful, joyful, fun and also critical like movement work. 2:22:13.840 --> 2:22:16.360 To make it sustainable for us and for anyone else 2:22:16.360 --> 2:22:19.080 who wants to share in this project, who we can 2:22:19.200 --> 2:22:21.959 sort of expand towards, but also to make it easier 2:22:22.000 --> 2:22:23.680 for people who are reading to have access to these 2:22:23.720 --> 2:22:26.080 things like in one place, instead of having to you know, 2:22:26.240 --> 2:22:28.360 decide who they care for and who they like in 2:22:28.480 --> 2:22:30.800 order to sort of you know, do that mac of 2:22:30.920 --> 2:22:33.199 like who can I afford to subscribe to, like I personally, 2:22:33.200 --> 2:22:34.440 I don't know if it's true for everyone else, but 2:22:34.680 --> 2:22:36.800 personally I usually have about two or three people I 2:22:36.840 --> 2:22:38.680 can afford to subscribe to a month, and I switch 2:22:38.720 --> 2:22:41.280 it out, just like on a very arbitrary basis, you know, 2:22:41.400 --> 2:22:45.560 or something like that that was very technical and financially focused. 2:22:45.720 --> 2:22:48.279 But what we're really excited to do mostly is support 2:22:48.680 --> 2:22:51.000 each other's work, because I think we all really love 2:22:51.080 --> 2:22:52.880 and admire each other's work and have for a long time, 2:22:53.000 --> 2:22:55.800 and this is just this really exciting opportunity. Instead of 2:22:55.879 --> 2:22:59.560 my writing just being for me, it's for Shuley and 2:22:59.680 --> 2:23:01.640 Carla and Danny No, And that just makes it feel 2:23:01.800 --> 2:23:04.760 more inspiring and exciting as well as a collective process. 2:23:05.560 --> 2:23:08.640 Yeah, I mean connected to the financial aspect, but I 2:23:08.680 --> 2:23:12.240 think when we are initially discussing this, the experience of 2:23:12.360 --> 2:23:15.600 being a writer is trying to find outlets for your writing. Yeah, 2:23:15.720 --> 2:23:17.440 and if you're trying to get paid for that, you 2:23:17.560 --> 2:23:20.640 have to sell it to people, right, And so it's 2:23:20.720 --> 2:23:22.720 very hard to get paid at all for writing, and 2:23:22.840 --> 2:23:26.280 it's very hard to place your writing in venues that 2:23:26.360 --> 2:23:29.160 publish it, especially if you're coming from an anarchist angle 2:23:29.240 --> 2:23:32.080 because people do not really want to publish things that 2:23:32.200 --> 2:23:34.800 come to anarchist conclusions, Like they want you to do 2:23:34.959 --> 2:23:37.520 all the analysis and whatever, but they don't want you 2:23:37.600 --> 2:23:41.200 to think about like what an action is like, so like, 2:23:41.360 --> 2:23:44.600 you know, you could write for some of the lefty 2:23:45.080 --> 2:23:49.400 so called lefty socialist whatever rags, but they don't. 2:23:49.560 --> 2:23:50.840 Yeah, they won't feature anarchists. 2:23:50.840 --> 2:23:54.320 They basically even just act as if anarchism doesn't exist, 2:23:54.480 --> 2:23:57.640 never exists, you know, never existed. They erase the whole 2:23:57.760 --> 2:23:59.920 history of it. The only serious kind of political force 2:24:00.160 --> 2:24:04.080 is some kind of democratic socialism. So to us, we 2:24:04.200 --> 2:24:06.600 wanted to create a place where we can do the 2:24:06.640 --> 2:24:09.240 writing we want to do without having to make compromises 2:24:09.480 --> 2:24:10.320 and what we want to. 2:24:10.360 --> 2:24:12.439 Say just to get published. 2:24:13.040 --> 2:24:15.600 Because that, yeah, just that game of like of shopping 2:24:15.680 --> 2:24:19.879 your stuff around is it's demeaning. It's totally time consuming. 2:24:20.400 --> 2:24:24.480 It distracts you from actually doing the work. So we 2:24:24.560 --> 2:24:28.080 were like less banned together instead of each of us 2:24:28.200 --> 2:24:31.240 going off wasting our time trying to write. 2:24:31.840 --> 2:24:33.680 Yeah, and I think one of the other issues with 2:24:33.800 --> 2:24:35.840 this too also, like the pay is just so bad, 2:24:36.200 --> 2:24:39.600 Like even though almost especially the leftist groups like page 2:24:39.680 --> 2:24:42.800 is so rancid, and all of the combinations of those 2:24:42.840 --> 2:24:45.720 things make it really really hard to just sort of 2:24:46.040 --> 2:24:49.880 be an independent writer. And also, okay, jumping back a 2:24:49.920 --> 2:24:52.920 second to the racing anicism exists. This is why the 2:24:52.959 --> 2:24:54.680 one that makes me always lose my mind is Like 2:24:54.920 --> 2:24:57.320 I'm specifically going to name Jocobin here because I don't 2:24:57.400 --> 2:24:59.280 like them, but like, one of the things that jacumum 2:24:59.320 --> 2:25:01.959 will do is though covering a strike that is organized 2:25:01.959 --> 2:25:04.800 by the IWW it is an IWW union, that they 2:25:04.840 --> 2:25:07.280 will have pictures of the strike where there are a 2:25:07.320 --> 2:25:09.760 bunch of people holding IWW banners, and they will never 2:25:09.879 --> 2:25:12.320 mention that it was the IWW who organized the strike. 2:25:12.680 --> 2:25:16.360 So like, yeah, there is this real sort of conspiracy 2:25:16.440 --> 2:25:20.480 of silence I guess about our politics and the stuff that. 2:25:20.520 --> 2:25:21.199 We do in the world. 2:25:21.560 --> 2:25:24.320 It's so glaring. Jacobin is definitely a big culprit. 2:25:24.360 --> 2:25:27.280 And then the podcasts associated with the dig like they 2:25:27.320 --> 2:25:30.000 will specifically will be talking about history where anarchists have 2:25:30.480 --> 2:25:32.839 been very involved. 2:25:32.440 --> 2:25:34.520 And they just will not mention them. 2:25:34.560 --> 2:25:37.200 I'm like, and they sometimes there's really good history and 2:25:37.200 --> 2:25:40.279 analysis on that podcast, but like, this is an omission 2:25:40.320 --> 2:25:41.840 that they clearly are choosing. 2:25:42.480 --> 2:25:46.600 Yeah, and I think, you know, self organization is effectively 2:25:46.680 --> 2:25:49.240 the only way out of this, because why is you 2:25:49.360 --> 2:25:50.800 just sort of I don't know how I have to 2:25:50.840 --> 2:25:53.360 deal with all the sort of media gatekeepers like sitting 2:25:53.440 --> 2:25:55.040 there in front of you with a stick going no 2:25:55.200 --> 2:25:57.720 anarchism of balk Yeah, and. 2:25:58.000 --> 2:26:01.040 Even the projects that have sustained, that have survived, which 2:26:01.120 --> 2:26:04.160 are all really awesome, you know, like and exciting, like 2:26:04.320 --> 2:26:07.840 very few of them have offered real sustainability, like on 2:26:07.959 --> 2:26:11.039 a professional level, and like I've been publishing like quote 2:26:11.120 --> 2:26:14.120 unquote professionally for fifteen years, and like I'm the like 2:26:14.240 --> 2:26:16.960 newest writer on the scene, like from our crew basically, 2:26:17.080 --> 2:26:20.440 like we're incredibly experienced, and all of us have books out, 2:26:20.480 --> 2:26:22.280 all of us have edited volumes, all of us have 2:26:22.440 --> 2:26:25.320 like podcasts, and like are people who I like, really respect, 2:26:25.320 --> 2:26:27.520 whose names I think are big and important in the 2:26:27.560 --> 2:26:31.080 world of theory and activism and like in the Anglophone 2:26:31.120 --> 2:26:34.160 world especially, and none of us can sustain ourselves as 2:26:34.280 --> 2:26:37.560 writers as such because of the way that just you know, 2:26:37.640 --> 2:26:39.600 both politically but also just like the way the market 2:26:39.640 --> 2:26:42.560 has come down and it just feels like something we 2:26:42.600 --> 2:26:45.640 could apply our politics to solving as a workplace issue 2:26:46.080 --> 2:26:48.080 rather than just sort of as like a you know, 2:26:48.280 --> 2:26:50.920 are you committed enough to sacrifice all your time issue? 2:26:51.760 --> 2:26:54.760 And so hopefully like that will also function to make 2:26:55.280 --> 2:26:58.760 more work available to produce and to platform and to 2:26:59.080 --> 2:27:02.119 yeah to to sort of work as an example simultaneously. 2:27:02.800 --> 2:27:06.400 Unfortunately, speak of speaking of sustaining work as a platform. Unfortunately, 2:27:06.440 --> 2:27:08.360 the way we are sustained here is with these ads. 2:27:08.560 --> 2:27:21.680 So hold on and we are back, and this, I 2:27:21.720 --> 2:27:24.640 guess brings us to the kind of work that's happening here. 2:27:24.640 --> 2:27:25.520 And I was very. 2:27:25.480 --> 2:27:28.720 Excited because one of the things y'all have done is 2:27:28.760 --> 2:27:32.199 an interview with Rouls of Becky, who is the author 2:27:32.360 --> 2:27:35.080 of like one of my favorite quotes of all time. 2:27:35.440 --> 2:27:37.280 I think I've said on this show like multiple times 2:27:37.280 --> 2:27:40.320 that I weirdly ran into in a sort of completely 2:27:40.440 --> 2:27:43.000 unrelated book called Rhythms of the Patchacouti, which is about 2:27:43.200 --> 2:27:45.199 the sort of the water and gas wars in Bolivia. 2:27:45.240 --> 2:27:47.280 I talked about this book on the show like all 2:27:47.360 --> 2:27:51.920 the time. This quote goes roughly like struggle illuminates the 2:27:51.959 --> 2:27:54.560 divisions of a society like lightning illuminates the sky. 2:27:54.800 --> 2:27:55.320 And I love it. 2:27:55.320 --> 2:27:57.040 It's like it's like it's the best explanation of what 2:27:57.120 --> 2:27:59.120 happened during twenty twenty that I've ever seen, And this 2:27:59.240 --> 2:28:02.520 is sort of what's happening like right now too, is 2:28:02.600 --> 2:28:05.640 like you have these sort of flashpoint moments where where 2:28:05.840 --> 2:28:09.080 you know, suddenly, like all of how society works very 2:28:09.200 --> 2:28:11.480 briefly becomes visible and you have this sort of moment 2:28:11.520 --> 2:28:14.519 when you're eludinated by it to act. And so I'm 2:28:14.560 --> 2:28:18.600 really excited that you are talking to him, And yeah, 2:28:18.840 --> 2:28:20.640 because you talked to Pet a bit more about what's 2:28:20.680 --> 2:28:22.119 been going on and what's to come. 2:28:22.640 --> 2:28:26.000 I'm sure thanks. That was a highlight definitely this shear 2:28:26.160 --> 2:28:29.520 was talking to Raoul obviously, you know a podcastco. We 2:28:29.600 --> 2:28:31.680 talked for quite a bit longer than what was on 2:28:31.800 --> 2:28:36.440 the show, and I think like reading his newest book 2:28:36.560 --> 2:28:39.800 that was translated and then doing that show with him, 2:28:40.520 --> 2:28:43.960 it was completely connected to me, like reaching out to 2:28:44.000 --> 2:28:47.960 Schuley about doing Call, because there is a way that 2:28:48.840 --> 2:28:52.400 that he talked about this whole idea of disappearing symmetries 2:28:52.440 --> 2:28:55.200 that those Bapotistas are working on, like this idea of 2:28:55.400 --> 2:29:00.400 really truly looking at all the fault lines within horizontality 2:29:00.560 --> 2:29:03.560 or autonomy that we don't actually enact in our day 2:29:03.600 --> 2:29:06.520 to day lives. And so I really started to reflect 2:29:06.600 --> 2:29:09.920 on my own life that way. And not so much 2:29:10.000 --> 2:29:12.680 Vicky at this point yet, but like Huli and Danny, 2:29:12.760 --> 2:29:15.080 both of them, like we just were blurbing each other's 2:29:15.120 --> 2:29:19.080 books and like supporting each other to connecting to publishers 2:29:19.360 --> 2:29:22.280 or trying to connect each other to publishers, and just 2:29:23.240 --> 2:29:26.520 like trying to disrupt a competitive nature that's running underneath 2:29:26.520 --> 2:29:29.359 even when we're all really committed to not being competitive, 2:29:29.440 --> 2:29:31.840 but there's like it is, like there's a you know. 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:35.920 So all is to say that for me, like collaboration 2:29:36.160 --> 2:29:38.560 is at the heart of what we're doing here in 2:29:38.640 --> 2:29:42.040 a deep, deep way. And for me, collaboration just means 2:29:42.120 --> 2:29:46.400 that when something is created that wouldn't be created otherwise 2:29:46.800 --> 2:29:49.640 without this collaboration. So I'm just really excited to see 2:29:49.720 --> 2:29:52.760 what sparks and comes up individually, but also like with 2:29:52.879 --> 2:29:56.199 each other and even like through collaborations like this show 2:29:56.240 --> 2:30:01.280 with Raoul and like how that spreads seeds and ideas. Yeah, 2:30:01.440 --> 2:30:04.440 so like for myself, I'm going to definitely focus on 2:30:04.640 --> 2:30:07.000 collaboration in a deep way. I don't think I'll write 2:30:07.120 --> 2:30:09.879 very much solo stuff for the for call, I think 2:30:09.920 --> 2:30:13.160 it will always be in conversation with others and just 2:30:13.280 --> 2:30:18.359 trying to double down on on doing it together instead 2:30:18.360 --> 2:30:20.640 of individual pursuits. 2:30:21.280 --> 2:30:23.320 Yeah, And that's something I think is useful for everyone 2:30:23.400 --> 2:30:25.680 listening to this, is that, like it's a lot easier 2:30:25.760 --> 2:30:29.400 to develop better ideas, and you know, it makes your 2:30:29.440 --> 2:30:32.440 writing more clear. It makes the way that you, you know, 2:30:32.560 --> 2:30:34.000 just the way you act in the world a lot 2:30:34.040 --> 2:30:36.520 more clear when you're working with other people, and it's 2:30:36.720 --> 2:30:38.440 you know, it's it's it's the process by which the 2:30:38.480 --> 2:30:40.320 best stuff gets created. 2:30:41.080 --> 2:30:43.040 Yeah, I mean, I think that's really like true. And 2:30:43.080 --> 2:30:46.039 I think like I have for a long time now 2:30:46.280 --> 2:30:49.000 sort of accepted that writing is never going to support 2:30:49.120 --> 2:30:51.560 or sustain me. And all I needed was a push 2:30:51.680 --> 2:30:53.280 from a few other people to be like, wait, what 2:30:53.360 --> 2:30:55.400 if we like actually tried to do it collectively, to 2:30:55.480 --> 2:30:57.480 be like, oh, yeah, like I could actually try that, 2:30:57.600 --> 2:30:59.200 Like I don't have to just accept that, Like I'll 2:30:59.200 --> 2:31:02.760 always have like a full time job plus whatever writing, 2:31:02.920 --> 2:31:04.840 like in whatever hours I can steal, you know, and 2:31:04.959 --> 2:31:08.320 like you know, with great difficulty put out some writing 2:31:08.440 --> 2:31:10.480 sometimes and then always feel guilty when I'm not putting 2:31:10.480 --> 2:31:13.280 out enough to like sustain myself, like that whole process. 2:31:13.400 --> 2:31:15.840 I think a lot of creatives right now know that struggle, 2:31:15.920 --> 2:31:19.240 you know, of having gigs and work and lots of 2:31:19.320 --> 2:31:22.360 other important things to do and and you know, sort 2:31:22.360 --> 2:31:24.360 of accepting that that's the conditions. And I think, like, 2:31:24.879 --> 2:31:27.280 what's so inspiring about? You know, because Carlin and as 2:31:27.360 --> 2:31:29.080 Carlo was just mentioning, they sort of brought I'm the 2:31:29.160 --> 2:31:30.720 last one on the on the crew, and I was 2:31:30.760 --> 2:31:33.200 sort of the closer, you know or whatever. But I think, like, 2:31:33.400 --> 2:31:36.800 I don't know what that means genuinely, but but I 2:31:37.160 --> 2:31:39.800 was brought in. And I think just having them propose 2:31:39.840 --> 2:31:42.680 it already just as a project that we've been thinking 2:31:42.720 --> 2:31:44.600 of has like changed the way I've been thinking about 2:31:44.879 --> 2:31:47.520 what is possible with the writing I'm already doing. And 2:31:47.720 --> 2:31:49.720 so I think, like, just to underline that point and 2:31:49.800 --> 2:31:53.360 go on and on, collaborations really really like important and 2:31:53.920 --> 2:31:54.960 supporting one another. 2:31:55.200 --> 2:31:56.440 So is so powerful. 2:31:56.800 --> 2:31:59.640 Yeah, When carl and I initially had like the seed 2:31:59.760 --> 2:32:03.920 come versation of this, like Carlo said something about collectivizing 2:32:04.040 --> 2:32:06.480 as writers, like we talk about it with all these 2:32:06.560 --> 2:32:10.720 other other workplaces and industries and whatever, and it was 2:32:10.879 --> 2:32:13.760 like like when when she said that, I was like, oh, yeah, 2:32:14.000 --> 2:32:16.360 like that makes so much sense. Like we're off here 2:32:16.480 --> 2:32:19.600 doing our own thing, and as Vicky said, you do 2:32:19.760 --> 2:32:23.040 it sort of with the knowledge that it's not sustainable. 2:32:23.480 --> 2:32:24.760 You steal your time to. 2:32:24.840 --> 2:32:28.320 Do it, right, Even the supposed jobs that are there 2:32:28.440 --> 2:32:32.200 to enable you to write actually make you do all 2:32:32.280 --> 2:32:34.640 this other work. So like the time for writing is 2:32:34.680 --> 2:32:38.720 always like endlessly deferred. And you know, we have that 2:32:38.840 --> 2:32:40.880 image also like of the patron or something, or like 2:32:41.040 --> 2:32:43.040 Virginia Woolf says, you need money enough to have a 2:32:43.160 --> 2:32:46.520 room of one's own. But if we put ourselves together 2:32:46.680 --> 2:32:50.480 in this way, then we are trying to, yeah, I 2:32:50.520 --> 2:32:53.200 don't know, create more time for ourselves to write. And then, 2:32:53.280 --> 2:32:55.800 like going back to something Vicky said earlier about like 2:32:56.000 --> 2:32:59.840 reinventing the newspaper, there was a time in anarchism where 2:33:00.320 --> 2:33:02.600 I think we talked about this amongst ourselves, like where 2:33:02.680 --> 2:33:05.760 like every block had like a Yiddish anarchist newspaper. Right, 2:33:05.840 --> 2:33:08.840 It wasn't like, yeah, you had one newspaper telling all 2:33:08.920 --> 2:33:10.600 the anarchists, but to think it was like it was 2:33:10.720 --> 2:33:13.280 hyper local in a way, and there was so many voices, 2:33:13.800 --> 2:33:15.959 and so I think that's another thing that we want 2:33:16.040 --> 2:33:18.840 to do is like help for that proliferation, because in 2:33:18.959 --> 2:33:21.600 the sort of spirit of collaboration, like the reason to 2:33:21.680 --> 2:33:24.640 write as an anarchist for me is to have conversations 2:33:24.720 --> 2:33:27.800 to produce the possibility for people to like receive it 2:33:27.879 --> 2:33:31.200 and then contact me into and I get into conversations 2:33:31.240 --> 2:33:32.640 with people and learn things from them. 2:33:33.080 --> 2:33:33.280 Yeah. 2:33:33.280 --> 2:33:35.880 I think it's an angle there too, where like I 2:33:35.920 --> 2:33:38.200 think we're kind of okay. So I was a tiny 2:33:38.280 --> 2:33:41.200 baby when all this was happening, so I'm gonna have 2:33:41.200 --> 2:33:43.160 to rely on y'all for this. But like, you know, 2:33:43.560 --> 2:33:45.080 one of the things I get from sort of reading 2:33:45.760 --> 2:33:48.760 the record about like the older anarchist movie. I mean 2:33:48.840 --> 2:33:51.360 when I say older, I mean like like anti anti 2:33:51.400 --> 2:33:53.920 globalization era stuff was like there seems like there was 2:33:53.920 --> 2:33:56.280 a lot more of a kind of like anarchist media sphere. 2:33:56.480 --> 2:33:59.520 Are you talking about like the late nineties, Yeah, and like. 2:33:59.600 --> 2:34:01.720 Like to the two thousands to some extent like a 2:34:02.000 --> 2:34:02.800 Battle Seattle. 2:34:03.000 --> 2:34:06.000 Yeah, yeah, I mean that was like the you know, 2:34:06.680 --> 2:34:10.160 the birth of anarchy again, right, Yeah, I was definitely 2:34:10.200 --> 2:34:15.119 around I'm in my late fifties, but the same struggle 2:34:15.240 --> 2:34:18.519 was there like that, yeah, that we're swimming in liberalism 2:34:18.840 --> 2:34:23.720 and like that socialist worker like capturing of the movement 2:34:23.959 --> 2:34:26.240 was just as powerful then, and it was you saw 2:34:26.280 --> 2:34:28.840 it at all the rallies and stuff, and you know, 2:34:28.920 --> 2:34:33.480 immediately anarchism was marginalized and pushed off as irrelevant and 2:34:33.920 --> 2:34:36.920 not practical for the revolution, and this is why it 2:34:37.000 --> 2:34:39.960 splintered off and all these kind of sectarian movements in 2:34:40.080 --> 2:34:42.600 the That's my take anyway, I think. 2:34:42.560 --> 2:34:44.680 That no, it makes sense, it makes sense. 2:34:44.959 --> 2:34:48.080 I mean I've hashed this out with so many older anarchists. 2:34:48.200 --> 2:34:50.520 I was part of Institute for Anarchist Studies, Like we 2:34:50.640 --> 2:34:53.560 talked about this a lot phenomena with Scott Crow, and 2:34:54.240 --> 2:34:56.080 you could just see the direct line of where it 2:34:56.200 --> 2:35:00.680 went into sectarianism from this sort of rebirth. Sorry I 2:35:00.720 --> 2:35:02.840 went off on a different thing instead of like journals 2:35:02.920 --> 2:35:03.280 and media. 2:35:03.400 --> 2:35:05.840 But yeah, no, no, well this is good too, because 2:35:05.879 --> 2:35:07.520 like I think that's the other thing I've been realizing 2:35:07.680 --> 2:35:10.119 is like people don't I mean in my generation too, 2:35:10.160 --> 2:35:12.840 but like people younger than me don't really know the. 2:35:12.920 --> 2:35:13.720 History of this stuff. 2:35:13.840 --> 2:35:15.680 Like all the time I have conversations with people where 2:35:15.680 --> 2:35:17.840 I started talking about like the Wahaka Uprising, and they 2:35:17.879 --> 2:35:20.200 have no idea what I'm talking about, and I'm like, 2:35:20.280 --> 2:35:22.600 oh no, we need to like we need to like 2:35:22.680 --> 2:35:25.640 resuscitate the history of like the two thousands, because stuff 2:35:25.720 --> 2:35:26.240 happened there. 2:35:27.120 --> 2:35:29.520 So I wasn't actually active at that point, but I 2:35:29.840 --> 2:35:32.920 was like very adjacent to some of that stuff at 2:35:32.959 --> 2:35:35.640 the moment. And some of that was actually because a 2:35:35.760 --> 2:35:38.039 lot of what was going on in the alter globalization 2:35:38.160 --> 2:35:41.360 movement in that period was happening through culture. I think 2:35:41.400 --> 2:35:45.199 most famously, like touring punk bands would also bring zine 2:35:45.240 --> 2:35:47.600 libraries with them, so they would have someone destroying zines 2:35:47.680 --> 2:35:49.880 and playing the show. And like, I mean I got 2:35:49.959 --> 2:35:51.520 radicalized through punk. I know a lot of people who 2:35:51.560 --> 2:35:53.120 did that. Was you know when I finally did, it 2:35:53.240 --> 2:35:55.640 was after that movement had largely crusted. But I think 2:35:55.720 --> 2:35:58.680 there was a lot of focus on culture and also 2:35:59.240 --> 2:36:03.320 a critique of clture was also pretty central to how 2:36:03.760 --> 2:36:07.000 people were thinking and moving. And I think the explosion 2:36:07.080 --> 2:36:09.800 of social media and like posting and like the sort 2:36:09.840 --> 2:36:15.080 of quote unquote democratization and leveling of communication capabilities, which 2:36:15.600 --> 2:36:18.200 in some ways was more real in the early twenty 2:36:18.320 --> 2:36:20.520 tens than it is certainly than it is now. It 2:36:20.640 --> 2:36:23.200 wasn't totally like a made up narrative, but there was 2:36:23.240 --> 2:36:25.840 also it was also over relied on. I think people 2:36:26.160 --> 2:36:28.480 sort of reached for a kind of like, well, we 2:36:28.680 --> 2:36:31.280 anyone who can use these tools to communicate, like that's valuable. 2:36:31.360 --> 2:36:35.039 So critiquing sort of media in general, or critiquing sort 2:36:35.080 --> 2:36:37.199 of capitalist media is sort of beside the point because 2:36:37.240 --> 2:36:38.520 we can go around it. We can sort of go 2:36:38.840 --> 2:36:40.440 we can you know, go on Twitter and subvert it, 2:36:40.520 --> 2:36:42.360 and we can like do all these you know, go 2:36:42.560 --> 2:36:45.439 sideways around it. So I was, you know, a participant 2:36:45.440 --> 2:36:47.400 in to Occupy Wall Street twenty eleven, which people also 2:36:47.440 --> 2:36:51.400 don't know anything about because that's just being older. But 2:36:51.520 --> 2:36:54.480 Occupy Wall Street was started by a magazine called Adbusters, 2:36:54.560 --> 2:36:57.240 which came out of the WTO movement and sort of 2:36:57.280 --> 2:37:00.520 managed to stick around. And by two thousand eleven, when 2:37:00.560 --> 2:37:02.360 they did that, we thought it was like a joke. 2:37:02.520 --> 2:37:05.160 It was like, oh, these culture jammers who like make 2:37:05.200 --> 2:37:08.160 fun of advertisements, like they started the movement. Like that's ridiculous, right, 2:37:08.240 --> 2:37:11.360 Like that's silly, and like this is not to defend Adbusters, 2:37:11.400 --> 2:37:11.720 I think. 2:37:11.959 --> 2:37:14.800 Whatever, Yeah, there's some issues with them. But yeah, yeah, 2:37:14.840 --> 2:37:16.119 they also did think. 2:37:16.000 --> 2:37:18.240 I don't know, yeah, But also I think that reaction 2:37:18.360 --> 2:37:20.600 of like culture jamming is sort of stupid or like, 2:37:20.680 --> 2:37:22.959 you know, like talking about who wants to talk about culture? 2:37:23.240 --> 2:37:26.240 At this point, I think that that made sense in 2:37:26.280 --> 2:37:28.240 the context in which we were moving and organizing. But 2:37:28.440 --> 2:37:31.320 like now, once again, it is clear that by abandoning 2:37:31.360 --> 2:37:34.119 the cultural sphere in many ways, we have in fact 2:37:34.280 --> 2:37:36.640 lost a tremendous amount of ground. So I think it's 2:37:36.640 --> 2:37:40.120 actually really important to have cultural organizations that aren't just theory, 2:37:40.240 --> 2:37:42.879 that aren't just news, but that are like really talking 2:37:43.120 --> 2:37:46.960 about art and beauty and like excitement and joy and 2:37:47.120 --> 2:37:49.480 fiction and all these things that we find really important 2:37:49.959 --> 2:37:52.520 because you know, I think a lot of people sort 2:37:52.520 --> 2:37:54.200 of think, well, it's a crisis moment, you know, the 2:37:54.240 --> 2:37:55.840 world's ending, why would you do that? But like the 2:37:55.879 --> 2:37:58.240 world has been ending since fourteen ninety two, Like the 2:37:58.480 --> 2:38:00.960 world worth defending has been ending since then, and it 2:38:01.040 --> 2:38:03.160 hasn't ended yet. And one of the ways it hasn't 2:38:03.240 --> 2:38:08.840 ended is by indigenous and black and other marginalized cultures 2:38:09.000 --> 2:38:11.800 and stories and narratives and works of art has been 2:38:11.800 --> 2:38:14.600 an important mode of history and resistance just as much 2:38:14.640 --> 2:38:18.240 as organizing and struggle, And yeah, I think we can 2:38:18.440 --> 2:38:20.040 move some struggle into that terrain right now. And I 2:38:20.080 --> 2:38:22.680 think there's a lot of craving for it now because 2:38:22.720 --> 2:38:26.600 I think also for a while things felt really oversaturated. 2:38:26.840 --> 2:38:29.600 But the last five years, the Internet doesn't feel helpful anymore. No, 2:38:29.959 --> 2:38:32.760 everything feels like streaming is a mess. Like everything's a mess. 2:38:32.920 --> 2:38:35.560 There's no access to culture that feels good. Everyone hates 2:38:35.600 --> 2:38:37.760 what they're doing. They know it's exploiting the artists. They know, 2:38:38.240 --> 2:38:40.800 you know, Spotify is giving people pennies, and that you know, 2:38:41.080 --> 2:38:43.080 Hbo and all those you know, all the all the 2:38:43.120 --> 2:38:46.920 streaming services you know, support Amazon, and they're they're just miserable, right, 2:38:47.040 --> 2:38:49.280 And I think there's there's a real opening and a 2:38:49.320 --> 2:38:52.800 real desire for something else at this moment, at the 2:38:52.800 --> 2:38:57.480 same time that things are indeed quite on fire, literally ecocidally, 2:38:57.560 --> 2:38:59.640 but also also sort of politically, yeah. 2:38:59.520 --> 2:39:01.640 Speaking, everything being on fire, we need to take an 2:39:01.640 --> 2:39:03.160 ad break and then we will come back. And I 2:39:03.200 --> 2:39:15.520 think the deliberate political intervention here we are back from 2:39:16.280 --> 2:39:19.640 capital healthscape to mildly less capital healthscape. 2:39:19.800 --> 2:39:19.879 Ye. 2:39:19.879 --> 2:39:20.800 Actually you're gonna. 2:39:20.640 --> 2:39:24.119 Say, yeah, I wanted to just build on this culture thing, 2:39:24.160 --> 2:39:27.240 because when you know, when after October seventh, when people 2:39:27.280 --> 2:39:29.680 are getting together to try to figure out how in 2:39:29.760 --> 2:39:32.400 the United States to do some kind of work and 2:39:32.520 --> 2:39:35.880 action and support and solidarity with Gaza and the Palestinian 2:39:35.920 --> 2:39:37.960 Liberation movement, like people were just sort of like, what 2:39:38.080 --> 2:39:39.920 the hell can we even do? And one of the 2:39:40.000 --> 2:39:41.800 things that I would say to people is like just 2:39:42.000 --> 2:39:45.480 putting up stickers and writing about Gaza on the walls, 2:39:45.560 --> 2:39:48.200 like in graffiti has a huge impact in it. It's 2:39:48.240 --> 2:39:52.280 overlooked often, I think, as like something that's effective, but 2:39:52.720 --> 2:39:55.240 we can see that there has been a giant cultural 2:39:55.360 --> 2:39:58.960 shift after October seventh in terms of people's awareness of 2:39:59.160 --> 2:40:02.360 the Israeli Gino side against the Palestinians and then support 2:40:02.480 --> 2:40:06.080 for the Palestinians. I think that it has to do really, 2:40:06.240 --> 2:40:08.800 you know, post October seventh, with the fact that this 2:40:09.000 --> 2:40:12.160 was like kind of plastered everywhere, and so it's easy 2:40:12.240 --> 2:40:15.400 to kind of think that that isn't action. But to me, 2:40:15.640 --> 2:40:18.000 in a way, doing something like that is more effective 2:40:18.080 --> 2:40:20.440 than the kind of marching in circles that we can 2:40:20.560 --> 2:40:24.640 do that we call protest, and you know, like going 2:40:24.680 --> 2:40:27.520 back to punk, I think also punk has gets a 2:40:27.560 --> 2:40:30.160 bad rap sometimes because you know, in that line of 2:40:30.200 --> 2:40:34.480 like the kind of bookschin lifestyleism. But I don't think 2:40:34.520 --> 2:40:38.840 we should downplay like punk created its own culture of 2:40:39.120 --> 2:40:43.039 people doing everything themselves to make it happen. It's where 2:40:43.120 --> 2:40:46.560 I got radicalized too. And they were like it was anarchists, right, 2:40:46.600 --> 2:40:50.120 It was like explicitly anarchist, and you were living in 2:40:50.240 --> 2:40:53.720 an anarchist way and like creating things in an anarchist. 2:40:53.320 --> 2:40:55.000 Way, and it was this whole other world. 2:40:55.120 --> 2:40:58.880 So like, if we put our anarchist energy into culture, 2:40:59.280 --> 2:41:02.000 it's part of making a world that we want to 2:41:02.120 --> 2:41:05.560 live in, you know, over and against this world, this 2:41:05.680 --> 2:41:08.080 hell world that we're also trying to destroy at the 2:41:08.160 --> 2:41:11.360 same time. So I think we shouldn't kind of just 2:41:11.480 --> 2:41:15.920 like dismiss this as as less important than the other 2:41:16.080 --> 2:41:17.560 kinds of actions that we can take. 2:41:18.360 --> 2:41:20.760 You're here, yeah, And that brings me to something I 2:41:20.840 --> 2:41:23.760 wanted to sort of ask about, like more deliberately, which 2:41:23.800 --> 2:41:26.880 is like, what's the kind of specific political intervention that 2:41:27.120 --> 2:41:29.880 you're trying to make into this moment with this project 2:41:29.920 --> 2:41:32.000 and both stor I guess a bit more generally too 2:41:33.000 --> 2:41:33.520 big question. 2:41:35.959 --> 2:41:40.640 I mean, my work has always been about intervening around 2:41:40.800 --> 2:41:45.000 any kind of dominant narratives that things are just now bad, 2:41:45.320 --> 2:41:49.600 or that people don't know what anything, or pedagogically they're lacking. 2:41:49.800 --> 2:41:52.080 Like I've always tried to intervene around this idea that 2:41:52.160 --> 2:41:55.200 we've always been otherwise, and we always are, and there's 2:41:55.280 --> 2:41:59.600 always cracks everywhere and eruptions of batical ways of being, 2:42:00.240 --> 2:42:03.480 knowing and doing, and so it's like a deepening of that. 2:42:03.640 --> 2:42:07.720 And I think probably on a systemic thinking systemically is 2:42:07.800 --> 2:42:12.440 really about disrupting individualism or liberalism or empire, whatever you 2:42:12.480 --> 2:42:15.640 want of colonialism to really like live it in the everyday. 2:42:16.000 --> 2:42:19.200 So that's partly that. And then on just a super 2:42:19.320 --> 2:42:22.560 practical level, like you know, all of us don't have wealth, 2:42:23.160 --> 2:42:26.920 don't have generational wealth, are working all the time to 2:42:27.000 --> 2:42:29.400 try to meet and meet and some of us are 2:42:29.800 --> 2:42:35.600 have housing insecurity and other real basic needs are insecure 2:42:35.640 --> 2:42:38.520 and health stuff and so like actually showing up for 2:42:38.920 --> 2:42:41.360 each of us is at the core of it. For me, 2:42:41.680 --> 2:42:45.320 like I it feels so good in my body to 2:42:45.560 --> 2:42:48.600 know that I'm not just showing up to think about 2:42:48.640 --> 2:42:51.160 what to do for cow. For me, it's like in 2:42:51.240 --> 2:42:55.760 the act of collectivism for each other, and so I'm 2:42:55.879 --> 2:43:00.240 just open to what sparks and emerges with our work. 2:43:00.280 --> 2:43:04.400 I don't have an agenda except for to disrupt and 2:43:04.520 --> 2:43:09.640 intervene belief systems that are ideologically driven by empire. And 2:43:10.080 --> 2:43:12.920 I also came of age in the early eighties in 2:43:13.040 --> 2:43:15.560 the punk scene and had a venue space and to me, 2:43:15.720 --> 2:43:17.960 punk is and I would say hip hop is well 2:43:18.320 --> 2:43:21.960 underground hip hop stuff is like always The way to 2:43:22.120 --> 2:43:26.040 disrupt being captured by empire or from liberalism is to 2:43:26.160 --> 2:43:29.280 keep that punk ethos of doing it together and keeping 2:43:29.360 --> 2:43:30.320 it low to the ground. 2:43:30.879 --> 2:43:33.560 Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I just like to build on that, Carl, 2:43:33.640 --> 2:43:36.360 because I think that was really beautiful. Second, everything that 2:43:36.440 --> 2:43:38.680 you said is it like many of us have a perspective. 2:43:38.879 --> 2:43:41.040 You know that huge structural change is going to need 2:43:41.120 --> 2:43:43.039 to come, and that often that will come through these 2:43:43.080 --> 2:43:46.600 big social movements, that these explosions of energy that you know, 2:43:46.680 --> 2:43:50.080 these lightning strikes, right, But you can't force those, you 2:43:50.160 --> 2:43:54.000 can't make those happen. Yeah, and in the meantime you can. 2:43:54.480 --> 2:43:56.360 I think I've spent a lot of my in the 2:43:56.440 --> 2:44:00.680 meantimes in trying to sort of organ stuff that sort 2:44:00.680 --> 2:44:03.120 of oriented towards mass movement, you know, and it just 2:44:03.200 --> 2:44:05.880 feels often feels like wheel spinning, you know, like I'm building, 2:44:05.879 --> 2:44:08.360 I'm trying to build mass movement organizing like you know, 2:44:08.480 --> 2:44:11.040 like whatever that means. And in the twenty tens, like 2:44:11.120 --> 2:44:13.560 one of the things that happens from like twenty eleven, 2:44:14.000 --> 2:44:15.920 are you by two thousand nine, but definitely twenty eleven 2:44:16.280 --> 2:44:18.720 to twenty twenty was that wherever you were, it was 2:44:18.760 --> 2:44:21.080 never more than probably eighteen months before there was like 2:44:21.160 --> 2:44:24.200 something else going off in the streets. And so although 2:44:24.200 --> 2:44:26.560 those could be very hard, those waves could be very difficult, 2:44:27.080 --> 2:44:29.960 you still had a lot of periods where you know, 2:44:30.080 --> 2:44:31.600 you could just sort of be waiting and it would 2:44:31.600 --> 2:44:32.200 just sort of happened. 2:44:32.240 --> 2:44:32.440 Again. 2:44:32.840 --> 2:44:34.640 That was certainly what I was doing in that decade 2:44:34.879 --> 2:44:37.080 in a way that I don't think I appreciated until 2:44:37.120 --> 2:44:40.080 it was over, because the last four years has been 2:44:40.160 --> 2:44:42.320 very different. The rhythm has been very different since the 2:44:42.840 --> 2:44:46.920 pandemic started. And I can't just say Panini on this podcast, Okay, 2:44:49.160 --> 2:44:52.360 everyone does it right, yeah, Sin since the dynamics started, 2:44:53.400 --> 2:44:55.680 you know, those rhythms have been disrupted, and I think 2:44:55.720 --> 2:44:58.800 the Biden counter revolution against Way twenty, which has also 2:44:58.840 --> 2:45:02.240 really disrupted those things in that space. It has felt 2:45:02.320 --> 2:45:04.320 very clear to me personally. And I'm older, you know whatever. 2:45:04.480 --> 2:45:06.480 I'm like, you know, a movement elder at this point, 2:45:06.600 --> 2:45:08.920 just because our movements are so you focused now, because 2:45:09.360 --> 2:45:14.120 I'm actually old. Like the decade before twenty eleven, from 2:45:14.160 --> 2:45:16.280 like two thousand and one, you know, from from nine 2:45:16.280 --> 2:45:18.200 to eleven until it sort of occupies sort of how 2:45:18.240 --> 2:45:20.760 I periodize it a bit. There wasn't a ton of 2:45:20.800 --> 2:45:22.920 street movement. You had the Iraq War stuff that was really, 2:45:22.959 --> 2:45:25.160 really big, and there were important exceptions to that in 2:45:25.160 --> 2:45:27.720 the US. I'm doing a potted history here. Obviously there's 2:45:27.760 --> 2:45:30.640 exceptions to this, but you definitely had all this time, 2:45:30.760 --> 2:45:33.280 and the stuff that was sustained and remembered were largely 2:45:33.360 --> 2:45:35.680 like sort of cultural projects, and so like I think 2:45:35.760 --> 2:45:38.400 like now as we're moving into this era here in 2:45:38.480 --> 2:45:44.040 North America on Turtle Island of extreme repressive danger, right, like, 2:45:44.120 --> 2:45:46.360 we shouldn't like joke about it or downplay it. Like 2:45:46.400 --> 2:45:49.119 we were facing a lot of extreme repression and fascists 2:45:49.160 --> 2:45:51.240 back in the streets in a big way. It doesn't 2:45:51.280 --> 2:45:55.040 feel like big political organizing of the kind that happened 2:45:55.080 --> 2:45:56.920 during the first Trump administration where people did a lot 2:45:56.959 --> 2:45:59.480 of marching in circles, but there were targets for the pressure, 2:46:00.040 --> 2:46:01.640 you know, like they don't feel as relevant now, but 2:46:01.760 --> 2:46:05.120 now I'm really off, way off. But no, but no, 2:46:05.240 --> 2:46:06.800 I think so, I think like I think like we're 2:46:06.840 --> 2:46:11.119 in this moment where the fascists both are quite empowered 2:46:11.200 --> 2:46:15.000 and very unfocused. They're confused, they don't really have us 2:46:15.080 --> 2:46:17.560 in their sights, like they think Liz Cheney is just 2:46:17.600 --> 2:46:20.600 as much a revolutionary as Assadashikur or whatever, right, and 2:46:20.760 --> 2:46:23.800 like that leaves us some space to move and to 2:46:23.920 --> 2:46:26.760 build things that can maintain the spirit of resistance, that 2:46:26.840 --> 2:46:30.720 can reproduce a culture of resistance that can also organize. 2:46:30.760 --> 2:46:33.320 And another thing that has really been important for me 2:46:33.440 --> 2:46:35.880 recently with Kaw is that I've been doing an organizing 2:46:35.920 --> 2:46:38.000 project that I won't talk about the details of, but 2:46:38.200 --> 2:46:41.720 that the skills have largely come from punk music that 2:46:41.800 --> 2:46:43.280 I did in the twenties twenty is being in a 2:46:43.320 --> 2:46:46.280 touring punk band, and those skills have made this organizing 2:46:46.360 --> 2:46:49.240 really easy. And that's been a huge thing for me 2:46:49.360 --> 2:46:51.560 because I'm working with other people who are younger who 2:46:51.560 --> 2:46:52.919 don't have that experientially. 2:46:52.680 --> 2:46:53.400 Oh, how do you do this. 2:46:53.520 --> 2:46:55.240 I'm like, oh no, no, it's so easy. You just 2:46:55.280 --> 2:46:57.240 like do this. You know, here's these skills I learned 2:46:57.360 --> 2:47:00.240 just from doing music, And like, I don't think that's 2:47:00.360 --> 2:47:03.360 just like accidental, as Shuley was saying, like the DIY 2:47:03.520 --> 2:47:06.200 nature of some of that work, the culture work. You know, 2:47:06.320 --> 2:47:08.520 maybe the band wasn't revolutionary. The bands I was in 2:47:08.640 --> 2:47:11.320 certainly weren't like the revolution or whatever, but they gave 2:47:11.400 --> 2:47:14.080 me all of these powerful skills and ideas and concepts 2:47:14.400 --> 2:47:16.760 for doing really important work. And I think that that's 2:47:16.920 --> 2:47:20.040 also a reason to pursue DIY culture in a way 2:47:20.120 --> 2:47:22.400 that's genuinely sustainable and world building. 2:47:23.000 --> 2:47:25.000 I think like if I can build off this too, 2:47:25.400 --> 2:47:28.560 and I'm going to try to do some tying together 2:47:28.680 --> 2:47:30.880 of things. But like one of the ways that I 2:47:31.000 --> 2:47:34.320 think about my contribution is to think about like let's 2:47:34.400 --> 2:47:37.600 not like don't look there, let's look over here. And 2:47:37.879 --> 2:47:40.440 that can mean of multiple things, which is often when 2:47:40.480 --> 2:47:44.480 people think politically, they're looking at these big moments or 2:47:44.600 --> 2:47:48.200 big actions or like top down solutions, which means that 2:47:48.280 --> 2:47:51.440 we take our attention away from these other places where 2:47:51.520 --> 2:47:54.680 we're doing all this stuff like carloisting, like we're already 2:47:54.760 --> 2:47:57.760 doing a lot of important kind of like life making work. 2:47:58.280 --> 2:48:00.920 And then also there's moments in in our movements where 2:48:00.959 --> 2:48:03.440 we have to be like you all look over here 2:48:03.520 --> 2:48:06.200 while we do stuff over right, Like you don't want 2:48:06.240 --> 2:48:07.920 to be seen all the time, so we have to 2:48:07.959 --> 2:48:09.800 be able to direct our attention to the things that 2:48:09.879 --> 2:48:12.240 we do and then also keep some of that stuff 2:48:12.320 --> 2:48:15.119 under wraps, and that means it's hard sometimes to see 2:48:15.520 --> 2:48:19.519 and because it's so decentralized, and anarchism really functions through decentralization, 2:48:20.040 --> 2:48:22.960 like we're not always aware of how much power we 2:48:23.080 --> 2:48:26.119 actually have and what's going on at. 2:48:26.040 --> 2:48:26.880 Any one moment. 2:48:27.520 --> 2:48:30.080 And going back to the kind of moments, even tracing 2:48:30.240 --> 2:48:32.720 back to the Battle of Seattle, and I think it's 2:48:32.800 --> 2:48:35.280 like ever more present today in all of the kinds 2:48:35.320 --> 2:48:38.280 of organizing for street actions that are being done, that 2:48:38.520 --> 2:48:41.080 a lot of the groundwork for any of these moments 2:48:41.240 --> 2:48:44.480 is done by anarchists, and then it's not either claimed 2:48:44.520 --> 2:48:48.200 by anarchists or it's stolen from anarchists, Like we make 2:48:48.480 --> 2:48:53.480 everything sort of run, and anarchism makes everything run, and 2:48:53.640 --> 2:48:57.080 then it just gets ignored because it's not about taking credit, 2:48:57.160 --> 2:49:00.120 it's not about kind of imposing itself. And so I 2:49:00.240 --> 2:49:03.840 think like that kind of in between of seeing what 2:49:03.920 --> 2:49:06.960 we're doing and sharing that knowledge and then keeping under 2:49:07.000 --> 2:49:10.000 wrap so that we can keep chugging along, and then 2:49:10.080 --> 2:49:12.039 just also being aware of when our work is being 2:49:12.120 --> 2:49:14.960 stolen and then repurposed for something that goes against what 2:49:15.080 --> 2:49:15.440 we want. 2:49:15.520 --> 2:49:18.039 I think these are all ways for us to prepare for. 2:49:18.120 --> 2:49:22.600 Those moments of like explosion or eruption where anarchy really 2:49:22.720 --> 2:49:25.600 manifests and then we can kind of taste freedom for 2:49:25.680 --> 2:49:26.880 a moment, love it. 2:49:27.959 --> 2:49:28.160 Yeah. 2:49:28.480 --> 2:49:30.520 I think though the way I've always thought about it 2:49:30.720 --> 2:49:33.440 was just kind of like, is this like flame tending 2:49:33.560 --> 2:49:37.400 process where in these sort of low cycles, your job 2:49:37.680 --> 2:49:41.160 is to keep the flame alive and eventually you know 2:49:41.400 --> 2:49:43.600 that you're going to see it, Like you know you're 2:49:43.600 --> 2:49:45.160 going to see the explosion again, right, You're going to 2:49:45.200 --> 2:49:49.080 see the flame. But like that, that doesn't happen unless 2:49:49.280 --> 2:49:51.640 the flame is still there and unless people have been 2:49:51.680 --> 2:49:53.560 tending it and people have been trying to make it grow. 2:49:53.640 --> 2:49:57.320 And you can't necessarily just like add fuel to it 2:49:57.400 --> 2:49:59.080 and be like, ah, it's gonna. 2:49:58.840 --> 2:49:59.600 Grow now, right it? 2:50:00.000 --> 2:50:01.720 You know, you don't you don't really have control of 2:50:02.240 --> 2:50:05.040 how it sort of moves and grows, it expands, but 2:50:05.160 --> 2:50:07.840 you have control over your ability to like make sure 2:50:07.879 --> 2:50:08.640 that it keeps. 2:50:08.480 --> 2:50:11.720 Going absolutely all about Bambers. 2:50:12.640 --> 2:50:15.600 Yeah, And I think also, like I think about the 2:50:15.640 --> 2:50:16.480 punk metaphor a lot. 2:50:16.560 --> 2:50:17.920 Like one of the ways that I've been thinking a 2:50:17.959 --> 2:50:19.800 lot about like what we're doing here and it could 2:50:19.800 --> 2:50:22.480 happen here is we kind of took the like we 2:50:22.720 --> 2:50:25.560 took the ridge against the machine gambit, which is to say, 2:50:25.640 --> 2:50:28.000 we were like we're like, Okay, we're going to go 2:50:28.080 --> 2:50:30.440 to try to go somewhat mainstream in order to I 2:50:30.520 --> 2:50:32.600 mean bridge but obviously like well, way bigger than we did, 2:50:32.640 --> 2:50:33.879 but like we're going to go try to some We're 2:50:33.879 --> 2:50:35.960 going to go like somewhat mainstream so we can like 2:50:36.800 --> 2:50:39.080 spread this thing to a larger group of people. That's 2:50:39.120 --> 2:50:42.119 also very very dangerous in the sense that like it's 2:50:42.240 --> 2:50:44.800 very easy to sort of just lose yourself in the 2:50:44.920 --> 2:50:47.360 kind of mire of like the field you've walked into. 2:50:47.440 --> 2:50:48.720 But on the other hand, the. 2:50:48.840 --> 2:50:51.440 Upside about it is that we're not the only people 2:50:51.920 --> 2:50:54.320 doing this, right, and there's all of you out there 2:50:54.360 --> 2:50:56.680 who are who are doing this, Like everyone on this 2:50:56.800 --> 2:51:00.200 call is doing this, like is doing the like like 2:51:00.280 --> 2:51:03.360 the DIY work that is going to be the core 2:51:03.640 --> 2:51:06.520 of what this whole thing becomes. And the more the 2:51:06.600 --> 2:51:08.200 more of these media projects we get and the more 2:51:08.240 --> 2:51:10.880 that people are able to sustain themselves doing this, the 2:51:10.959 --> 2:51:13.240 more that we're sort of able to break, like I 2:51:13.280 --> 2:51:16.360 don't know, just like the model maniacal substack control of 2:51:16.560 --> 2:51:20.400 like taking your money and giving it the transphobes kind 2:51:20.480 --> 2:51:20.760 of thing. 2:51:20.920 --> 2:51:23.240 The better shape we're going to be in the years 2:51:23.280 --> 2:51:24.280 to come exactly. 2:51:24.400 --> 2:51:27.480 And speaking of which, one thing anarchists are famously bad 2:51:27.520 --> 2:51:30.600 at doing is accepting that we do require money and 2:51:30.680 --> 2:51:32.160 asking for it. So I'm going to do that for 2:51:32.240 --> 2:51:32.640 the squad. 2:51:32.760 --> 2:51:32.960 Yeah. 2:51:33.040 --> 2:51:36.040 We are currently fundraising because it's actually really hard to 2:51:36.120 --> 2:51:39.240 make something sustainable for four people. Yeah, man, because we 2:51:39.320 --> 2:51:41.600 have a fundraiser going on. If you like what we're 2:51:41.640 --> 2:51:44.720 talking about here, you can donate to our Indiegogo literally 2:51:44.800 --> 2:51:48.000 anything helps. Once we fully launch in February, we're going 2:51:48.080 --> 2:51:50.200 to have a pay what you want subscription model, so 2:51:50.320 --> 2:51:52.680 everything will be subscribed. But we really want to have 2:51:52.800 --> 2:51:55.680 three months worth of living wage for all of us 2:51:55.720 --> 2:51:57.160 to do two days a week on it, right, So 2:51:57.480 --> 2:51:59.640 we're not even you know, we're not talking full salaries. 2:52:00.040 --> 2:52:02.560 That's forty five thousand dollars because four people for three months, 2:52:02.600 --> 2:52:05.000 it's not even a tremendous amount of money because we're 2:52:05.000 --> 2:52:07.360 including solidarity funds in that and like paying any writers 2:52:07.400 --> 2:52:09.840 who contribute, like lots of other stuff. So yeah, if 2:52:09.879 --> 2:52:12.040 you have a few bucks and you know, maybe you're 2:52:12.040 --> 2:52:13.920 thinking about, you know, getting off of one of those 2:52:13.959 --> 2:52:15.800 substacks or something, and you want to throw our way, 2:52:16.080 --> 2:52:18.640 we would be absolutely honored. I'm very excited to accept 2:52:18.640 --> 2:52:21.920 anything in this launch. And if you don't have that money, 2:52:21.959 --> 2:52:23.560 which is i know true for a lot of us, 2:52:23.600 --> 2:52:25.520 which is why we feel bad asking for the money 2:52:26.000 --> 2:52:27.720 because there are so many people who need it right now. 2:52:28.320 --> 2:52:30.879 You can subscribe online. You can find us on social 2:52:30.959 --> 2:52:33.320 media and keep in touch until we do launch, and 2:52:33.360 --> 2:52:35.600 then you can join and subscribe that way. That's also 2:52:35.760 --> 2:52:38.120 a really great way to support us. But if you 2:52:38.200 --> 2:52:39.760 have a few bucks you want to throw, if you 2:52:39.800 --> 2:52:42.000 want to give someone a present of a year's membership, 2:52:42.040 --> 2:52:44.400 you can get that for one hundred dollars for the holidays, 2:52:44.440 --> 2:52:48.200 you know, radicalize your uncle, you know, just with our work, 2:52:48.400 --> 2:52:49.560 we'd really really appreciate it. 2:52:49.680 --> 2:52:54.439 And yeah, thanks Vicky, yeah, and I don't know, I'm 2:52:54.480 --> 2:52:56.320 excited for this. There's already been a bunch of great 2:52:56.360 --> 2:52:58.880 stuff that's up on the site. We will have links 2:52:58.879 --> 2:53:01.320 to everything in the description. Yeah, thank you, thank you 2:53:01.440 --> 2:53:03.959 three for coming on the show. And I'm really excited 2:53:04.000 --> 2:53:04.320 about this. 2:53:04.920 --> 2:53:05.880 Well, thanks for having us. 2:53:06.200 --> 2:53:07.560 Yeah, thanks for the chance to share it. 2:53:07.600 --> 2:53:10.160 And like I always say, like if anyone is interested 2:53:10.200 --> 2:53:11.880 and wants to get in touch, I'm happy to hear 2:53:11.920 --> 2:53:12.120 from you. 2:53:12.280 --> 2:53:15.200 And yeah, yeah, same, and reach out to us too. 2:53:15.400 --> 2:53:18.000 A few ideas on what cost stands for. We love 2:53:18.080 --> 2:53:21.800 hearing from people. My favorite is kN the anarchist right, 2:53:22.120 --> 2:53:24.880 that's what it stands for. I don't know who came 2:53:24.959 --> 2:53:26.520 up with that. I think that might have been Schuerlier, Victy, 2:53:26.560 --> 2:53:27.280 but it's a good one. 2:53:28.360 --> 2:53:29.720 TVD, TBD. 2:53:31.480 --> 2:53:33.960 So yeah, send in what you think. And we also 2:53:34.040 --> 2:53:35.960 are going to have an advice column that's going to 2:53:36.000 --> 2:53:39.680 be launched soon. Yeah, so send us questions or individually 2:53:39.840 --> 2:53:42.879 or whatever, but you know, disrupt individualism, reach out to us. 2:53:43.959 --> 2:53:46.840 Yeah, thanks so much. And yeah, as a long time listener, 2:53:47.360 --> 2:53:49.039 first time caller, it's really exciting to be on here. 2:53:49.120 --> 2:53:50.480 So thank you Mia so much. 2:53:50.680 --> 2:53:53.800 That's not true, hold time all right, sorry, I. 2:53:56.760 --> 2:53:58.279 Just go on so many podcasts. 2:54:01.360 --> 2:54:01.600 Sorry. 2:54:01.680 --> 2:54:04.800 Yeah, well anyway, it's really exciting to be here and 2:54:04.920 --> 2:54:07.040 talking to everyone, and we have to meet y'all in 2:54:07.160 --> 2:54:09.000 the future. And kay, we'll have a well, we will 2:54:09.000 --> 2:54:11.720 have a discord community. We'll be having like writing class. 2:54:11.760 --> 2:54:13.360 We're gonna have a lot of like really exciting stuff. 2:54:13.440 --> 2:54:15.720 So even if you can't throw in money right now, 2:54:15.800 --> 2:54:18.440 please sign up to our website, cosh anythings dot com. 2:54:18.879 --> 2:54:21.280 Stay in touch and find out all the really cool 2:54:21.360 --> 2:54:22.000 stuff we're doing. 2:54:22.400 --> 2:54:25.000 And just to reiterate, like all the stuff that we're 2:54:25.040 --> 2:54:27.720 already doing is now going to have a home and call. 2:54:27.920 --> 2:54:33.880 So like my essays and podcasts, Vicki's reviews and essays, 2:54:34.440 --> 2:54:38.720 and Carla's many projects which include podcasts and writing and 2:54:39.000 --> 2:54:42.160 these interviews, Danny's writing and classes. 2:54:42.480 --> 2:54:44.520 Yeah, this is all moving there. 2:54:44.959 --> 2:54:47.440 Plus new things doing it together. 2:54:48.400 --> 2:54:52.039 Yeah, in that spirit, you two, dear listener, can can 2:54:52.120 --> 2:54:55.000 do things together and go disrupt this world. So go 2:54:55.160 --> 2:54:58.240 do that now instead of listening to whatever else it 2:54:58.360 --> 2:55:01.760 tappling on the show. This is ending is not going well, 2:55:01.800 --> 2:55:04.160 but go go to srub fas get it. 2:55:04.800 --> 2:55:05.360 Thanks so much. 2:55:06.840 --> 2:55:09.960 Hey, we'll be back Monday. With more episodes every week 2:55:10.080 --> 2:55:11.920 from now until the heat death of the universe. 2:55:12.520 --> 2:55:15.000 It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 2:55:15.200 --> 2:55:18.199 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:55:18.320 --> 2:55:21.840 Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 2:55:21.959 --> 2:55:24.800 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:55:25.280 --> 2:55:27.200 You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here 2:55:27.240 --> 2:55:29.039 listed directly in episode descriptions. 2:55:29.400 --> 2:55:30.200 Thanks for listening.